PDA

View Full Version : ? about the "organized" Rhino runs....



DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 10:46 AM
When the Dam Runs were started we had a good turnout and then after a few more the boats/crowds were getting bigger, fast. At that time it started to be a liability issue where permits and insurance were starting to be required. Not worth it to me so basically they faded away. Pretty much the same thing (generally) happened to the OP6's. They were so much fun but the liability issue became a real threat and it wasn't worth the risk.
After reading about the accident on the Rhino Run this weekend (glad it was just mechanical and nobody was hurt) and the Rhino Runs being "organized" are you worried about liability issues at all?
Just wondering out loud as it seems to be a lot of people and potential for problems regardless of how many people enjoy the "event". It only takes one knucklehead to ruin it for everybody and possibly bring someone to their knees finacially.

djunkie
02-26-2007, 11:01 AM
Your bumming me out man!!!:devil:

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:04 AM
Your bumming me out man!!!:devil:
Sorry DJ...not my intention, just thinking out loud. Maybe it is different for on the water as the Coast Guard gets involved as far as impeding the waterways, etc.
Today there are some many ****s out there that ruin things for everybody else.

djunkie
02-26-2007, 11:06 AM
Sorry DJ...not my intention, just thinking out loud. Maybe it is different for on the water as the Coast Guard gets involved as far as impeding the waterways, etc.
Today there are some many ****s out there that ruin things for everybody else.
I do know what your saying though Tom. It only takes 1 person to ruin it for everyone else.

phebus
02-26-2007, 11:08 AM
I have wondered the same thing, and I don't ever want to see anyone get burned, so, is there an attorney on this site that can explain, at what point when organizing an event, does the organizer accept liability for what happens at the event. I'm sure it's a gray area, but there must be something that seperates a fun ride amongst a group of friends, from what the law considers something more.

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:09 AM
I have wondered the same thing, and I don't ever want to see anyone get burned, so, is there an attorney on this site that can explain, at what point when organizing an event, does the organizer accept liability for what happens at the event. I'm sure it's a gray area, but there must be something that seperates a fun ride amongst a group of friends, from what the law considers something more.
For the Dam Runs it was the fact there was a stated time of departure and a schedule of events. Then the ? becomes who "organized" the "event". Throw in shirts touting the "event" and there you go....:(

Havasu_Dreamin
02-26-2007, 11:10 AM
Having never participated in a Rhino Run or a Dam Run for various reasons here is my perspective on thse informal-but somewhat formal-but still informal events:
It is my hope that anyone participating in these events understand that they are just for fun and not a real organized event and that any mis-haps are part of using your own equipment and as such should be handled accordingly. In other words, grow a sack and realize that sh!t happens and there is no need to sue someone.....I know that some serious stuff could happen that would/could warrant some liability issues but at the end of the day everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.....
That's my $.05 as a non-participant.....I'll go get my firesuit on for the flame war.....

djunkie
02-26-2007, 11:11 AM
Having never participated in a Rhino Run or a Dam Run for various reasons here is my perspective on thse informal-but somewhat formal-but still informal events:
It is my hope that anyone participating in these events understand that they are just for fun and not a real organized event and that any mis-haps are part of using your own equipment and as such should be handled accordingly. In other words, grow a sack and realize that sh!t happens and there is no need to sue someone.....I know that some serious stuff could happen that would/could warrant some liability issues but at the end of the day everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.....
That's my $.05 as a non-participant.....I'll go get my firesuit on for the flame war.....
I agree with you 1000000000%. Unfortunately there are people in this world who would see it as an oportunity.

Havasu_Dreamin
02-26-2007, 11:13 AM
I agree with you 1000000000%. Unfortunately there are people in this world who would see it as an oportunity.
Us Howard peeps need to stick together :) But you are right, there are way too many opportunists out there.....

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:13 AM
Having never participated in a Rhino Run or a Dam Run for various reasons here is my perspective on thse informal-but somewhat formal-but still informal events:
It is my hope that anyone participating in these events understand that they are just for fun and not a real organized event and that any mis-haps are part of using your own equipment and as such should be handled accordingly. In other words, grow a sack and realize that sh!t happens and there is no need to sue someone.....I know that some serious stuff could happen that would/could warrant some liability issues but at the end of the day everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.....
That's my $.05 as a non-participant.....I'll go get my firesuit on for the flame war.....
Yep...couldn't agree more with you however............
then reality sets in AFTER THE FACT and someone pays the price financially and IMO unfairly based on some asshole taking aggressive action.

Racer277
02-26-2007, 11:17 AM
Yep...couldn't agree more with you however............
then reality sets in AFTER THE FACT and someone pays the price financially and IMO unfairly.
Who was the person that said the Dam runs had to have permits/insurance, etc?
Were they official? How did they find out about the run? Why did they find out about the run?
I understand your lawyers warned you, but did you get anything from an official stating what requirements and why?

Havasu_Dreamin
02-26-2007, 11:19 AM
Who was the person that said the Dam runs had to have permits/insurance, etc?
Were they official? How did they find out about the run? Why did they find out about the run?
I understand your lawyers warned you, but did you get anything from an official stating what requirements and why?
I don't know if this is true with the case of the Dam Runs but you can be certain that local LE monitors this site.....

Todd969
02-26-2007, 11:20 AM
It's hardly "organized".
We have a fantastic attorney and he made it clear that if I do not charge a fee or make any profit and simply act as a guide then I have no liabilty.
This ride is no different than a group of people in Glamis getting together for a ride.
The same goes for a group of boaters that meet and head up to Park Moabi.
If you wanted to get technical, Joe blow that said "hey let's meet in the channel and head to Steamboat" could he cited liable if Mr. Smith ran into another boat on the way down, because he suggested going there?
The answer is "NO" Mr. Blow simply made a suggestion, Mr. Smith had the option to stay.
Make sense?

phebus
02-26-2007, 11:21 AM
Having never participated in a Rhino Run or a Dam Run for various reasons here is my perspective on thse informal-but somewhat formal-but still informal events:
It is my hope that anyone participating in these events understand that they are just for fun and not a real organized event and that any mis-haps are part of using your own equipment and as such should be handled accordingly. In other words, grow a sack and realize that sh!t happens and there is no need to sue someone.....I know that some serious stuff could happen that would/could warrant some liability issues but at the end of the day everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.....
That's my $.05 as a non-participant.....I'll go get my firesuit on for the flame war.....
So true, but the reason we carry insurance is that not everyone plays by the same rules, and you never know how far the liability may extend. Litigation may be brought about by a family member or others that weren't involved in the run itself. Or, someone involved in the run may do something destructive to the environment, or property. Could the damaged party sue the "organizer" if direct blame couldn't be determined?

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:22 AM
Who was the person that said the Dam runs had to have permits/insurance, etc?
Were they official? How did they find out about the run? Why did they find out about the run?
I understand your lawyers warned you, but did you get anything from an official stating what requirements and why?
Never got anything official but 3DO checked into all of it with his lawyers and basically advised against all of it. I guess at some point you just remember back to how/why it got started in the first place...Friends getting together. As it gets bigger and bigger it HAS to be taken into consideration.
No offense intended to anybody on here but I have no desire to roll the dice on my financial future for a fun time with others that I may or may not know personally.

Racer277
02-26-2007, 11:22 AM
Make sense?
Yes.
If we start worrying about every little liability, we won't leave the house...

phebus
02-26-2007, 11:23 AM
It's hardly "organized".
We have a fantastic attorney and he made it clear that if I do not charge a fee or make any profit and simply act as a guide then I have no liabilty.
This ride is no different than a group of people in Glamis getting together for a ride.
The same goes for a group of boaters that meet and head up to Park Moabi.
If you wanted to get technical, Joe blow that said "hey let's meet in the channel and head to Steamboat" could he cited liable if Mr. Smith ran into another boat on the way down, because he suggested going there?
The answer is "NO" Mr. Blow simply made a suggestion, Mr. Smith had the option to stay.
Make sense?
Yes, and no. I see what you are saying, but on the other hand, DILLIGAF said that in the case of the Damn Run, other definitions were applied, such as a set time and place for a start.

Racer277
02-26-2007, 11:24 AM
That's what I suspected.
Another guy talked to someone that said it would be a bad idea, so...Never got anything official but 3DO checked into all of it with his lawyers and basically advised against all of it. I guess at some point you just remember back to how/why it got started in the first place...Friends getting together. As it gets bigger and bigger it HAS to be taken into consideration.
No offense intended to anybody on here but I have no desire to roll the dice on my financial future for a fun time with others that I may or may not know personally.

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:25 AM
It's hardly "organized".
We have a fantastic attorney and he made it clear that if I do not charge a fee or make any profit and simply act as a guide then I have no liabilty.
This ride is no different than a group of people in Glamis getting together for a ride.
The same goes for a group of boaters that meet and head up to Park Moabi.
If you wanted to get technical, Joe blow that said "hey let's meet in the channel and head to Steamboat" could he cited liable if Mr. Smith ran into another boat on the way down, because he suggested going there?
The answer is "NO" Mr. Blow simply made a suggestion, Mr. Smith had the option to stay.
Make sense?
I am glad you checked it all out Todd. Scared the shit out of me with the Dam Runs. You do this out of a feeling of community and good spirit. That is admirable but shit does happen.

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:27 AM
That's what I suspected.
Another guy talked to someone that said it would be a bad idea, so...
The LEO at Katherines was starting to get "interested" in what was going on Sean. I talked to numerous people that had put on Poker Runs and other events. I did not just take it from one guy and checked it out myself. 3DO had an Attorney on retainer that checked it out for us from a legal aspect.
I think that qualifies for more than...another guy talked to someone....

Todd969
02-26-2007, 11:30 AM
Yes, and no. I see what you are saying, but on the other hand, DILLIGAF said that in the case of the Damn Run, other definitions were applied, such as a set time and place for a start.
I suggest a leave time.
Another way to look at this, I make 6:00 dinner reservations at Javalia for Wednesday Feb 28th for a group of 20, one of the guests gets in an accident on the way, am I liable because they were on their way to dinner under my invitation?

phebus
02-26-2007, 11:31 AM
Here is a hypothetical question for you Todd. If, after everyone left Lowes in the morning, Lowes discovered someone had damaged something on their property. Do you think they would try to come after you (the organizer of the event) for recovery of damages?
Or, say someone was severely injured or killed during the run, aren't you scared that someone would name you in a lawsuit, that even if it wasn't succesfull, could potentially ruin you financially?

Racer277
02-26-2007, 11:31 AM
I'm not ragging on you Tom. Didn't mean to sound that way.
The way it went away, I assumed that nothing official happened. If it did, then I figured that official statement would help the determination on what was/wasn't legal/liable/permittable/etc.
The LEO at Katherines was starting to get "interested" in what was going on Sean. I talked to numerous people that had put on Poker Runs and other events. I did not just take it from one guy and checked it out myself. 3DO had an Attorney on retainer that checked it out for us from a legal aspect.
I think that qualifies for more than...another guy talked to someone....

Racer277
02-26-2007, 11:33 AM
Here is a hypothetical question for you Todd. If, after everyone left Lowes in the morning, Lowes discovered someone had damaged something on their property. Do you think they would try to come after you (the organizer of the event) for recovery of damages?
Or, say someone was severely injured or killed during the run, aren't you scared that someone would name you in a lawsuit, that even if it wasn't succesfull, could potentially ruin you financially?
I'm sure that is exactly what would happen, and of course, it sucks.
I would guess it would depend on the attorney's experience and skill for whether or not it stuck.

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:33 AM
I suggest a leave time.
Another way to look at this, I make 6:00 dinner reservations at Javalia for Wednesday Feb 28th for a group of 20, one of the guests gets in an accident on the way, am I liable because they were on their way to dinner under my invitation?
Todd...I wish you nothing but the best and these seem like a lot of fun. If I would have remembered about it I may have driven from BHC to Topock to have lunch with you guys. Just thinking out loud...that's all.
That being said I still am not buying a friggin' Rhino.....lol

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:36 AM
I'm not ragging on you Tom. Didn't mean to sound that way.
The way it went away, I assumed that nothing official happened. If it did, then I figured that official statement would help the determination on what was/wasn't legal/liable/permittable/etc.
Exactly and of course no ragging taken...lol
I just saw it as a thing that was becoming more than it was intended to be. Shit, I am a laid back guy who likes to have a good time. It was getting away from that with all the liability talk and so forth.

DILLIGAF
02-26-2007, 11:37 AM
Here is a hypothetical question for you Todd. If, after everyone left Lowes in the morning, Lowes discovered someone had damaged something on their property. Do you think they would try to come after you (the organizer of the event) for recovery of damages?
Or, say someone was severely injured or killed during the run, aren't you scared that someone would name you in a lawsuit, that even if it wasn't succesfull, could potentially ruin you financially?
Very logical Phebus.
People sue over a friggin' hot cup of coffee these days :(

Todd969
02-26-2007, 11:39 AM
Here is a hypothetical question for you Todd. If, after everyone left Lowes in the morning, Lowes discovered someone had damaged something on their property. Do you think they would try to come after you (the organizer of the event) for recovery of damages?
Or, say someone was severely injured or killed during the run, aren't you scared that someone would name you in a lawsuit, that even if it wasn't succesfull, could potentially ruin you financially?
Yes, that's why the GM there has my contact info.
Not scared, but that's why I triple check everything with Mr Attorney.
Maybe I'll call the 5 rides good and move on to something else. Maybe a smaller group of people.

phebus
02-26-2007, 11:41 AM
And, just so people don't think I'm being an asshole over this issue (a reputation I've worked very hard to attain:D ), I'm good friends with Todd (I think?), and that is the cause of my concern.

Todd969
02-26-2007, 11:44 AM
And, just so people don't think I'm being an asshole over this issue (a reputation I've worked very hard to attain:D ), I'm good friends with Todd (I think?), and that is the cause of my concern.
That's funny " I think", what's to think about gomer?:D

dicudmore
02-26-2007, 11:46 AM
That's funny " I think", what's to think about gomer?:D
its still too early in the day for thinking Todd :D

phebus
02-26-2007, 11:48 AM
its still too early in the day for thinking Todd :D
Not true, my back hurts so bad today, that I'm already thinking of having a beer. :D

dicudmore
02-26-2007, 11:57 AM
Not true, my back hurts so bad today, that I'm already thinking of having a beer. :D
sorry to hear that, but good idea :D

Baja Big Dog
02-26-2007, 12:06 PM
I own a business (bajaoffroad.com) that runs off road motorcycle tours....we run these in Mexico only, and we do this for a reason.
We have a very good legal group, and I dont want to "butt hurt" anyone here that spends alot of time "organizing" these events, but the potential for disaster would be a code "RED"!
Im not going to get into any long drawn out arguments with all the armchair laywers out there, my advise would be to get some professional advise on the subject of liability.
Does this suck, some guy spends alot of his time getting these things together and someone shits on it because we live a fricken "sue happy" world, you bet, like it or not its life.
My hats off to you guys that organize these things, I know what you go through so a few folks can have a good time, and it sounds like its succesful.
Sounds like all had fun, not a baller yet, my application has not been approved by the committe yet!!!
Maybe you guys will let my little LT1 powered CJ8 go out with you guys some
day??

Mrs.Racer277
02-26-2007, 12:16 PM
its still too early in the day for thinking Todd :D
I agree :)

38687
02-26-2007, 12:28 PM
Yes, that's why the GM there has my contact info.
Not scared, but that's why I triple check everything with Mr Attorney.
Maybe I'll call the 5 rides good and move on to something else. Maybe a smaller group of people.
Hey Todd, I dont know you, but I have to say that you should'nt start thinking that way. I've never been on one of your rides but, I do read the threads and look at all the pictures. So I know alot of people get alot of enjoyment out of them.( I would love to go along someday).
Seems to me that you go online and tell your friends your going on a ride. Your a very popular guy and 200 of your friends show up to ride with you. You should'nt be liable for anything. (except to buy me a beer when I finally do show up LOL). Keep up the good work!.......Edroe

Sportin' Wood
02-26-2007, 01:04 PM
I have done my stint of organizing offroad activities, and agree 100% with Baja Big Dog. Its not the person thats on the run you have to worry about its the family and worse yet the health care provider that will want thier money back. Anyone can sue anyone for anything and even if you win, you lose time and money.
<--------------------- No longer forms clubs,or promotes offroad events.
Its a ton of fun but, not worth the trouble. I love Baja, the rule of the day is green paper.:D
I have some friends that have nothing to lose that put on events however, but they don't have boats.

riverracerx
02-26-2007, 01:15 PM
Whos' up for RRX6?
Maybe we won't have it...... :(

dumbandyoung
02-26-2007, 01:34 PM
What if there was a waiver or release of liability form was signed?. Signed contracts hold up in court....unfortunately friendships don't.

djunkie
02-26-2007, 01:35 PM
Whos' up for RRX6?
Maybe we won't have it...... :(
:eek: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Todd969
02-26-2007, 01:37 PM
Whos' up for RRX6?
Maybe we won't have it...... :(
Don't worry Chris, I'll be there:)

djunkie
02-26-2007, 01:38 PM
Don't worry Chris, I'll be there:)
Me too!!!!!!!!!:D :D

OGShocker
02-26-2007, 01:39 PM
Yes.
If we start worrying about every little liability, we won't leave the house...
Why would YOU ever leave the house, when you have a WOO WOOO dance partner like the Mrs.? :D:D
See you (if only for a minute) this weekend.

Racer277
02-26-2007, 01:48 PM
:D
You would have enjoyed this weekend!
Great weather, great people, good food, just you guys were missing!
Why would YOU ever leave the house, when you have a WOO WOOO dance partner like the Mrs.? :D:D
See you (if only for a minute) this weekend.

djunkie
02-26-2007, 01:51 PM
:D
You would have enjoyed this weekend!
Great weather, great people, good food, just you guys were missing!
Ya we missed you guys too. :D :D

Racer277
02-26-2007, 02:06 PM
Ya we missed you guys too. :D :D
I stopped every green rhino and asked if they were Djunkie!
About rhino 63 I got tired and gave up...
Next time you should go.

djunkie
02-26-2007, 02:15 PM
I stopped every green rhino and asked if they were Djunkie!
About rhino 63 I got tired and gave up...
Next time you should go.
I'm sure gonna try.