454???

[NautiII]

Ok you 454 buffs, I have a chance to buy a square bore 454 for $175. the cam is bad in it, it has been sitting for a while, and has no intake on it. definetly needs some work. so, is it worth it?? and by the way, I just built a 455 olds, and it is very stout. just figured the 454 would be a good project motor if it is worth it. the year is a 1973, if that means anything to yall.

[sleekcrafter]

Ok you 454 buffs, I have a chance to buy a square bore 454 for $175. the cam is bad in it, it has been sitting for a while, and has no intake on it. definetly needs some work. so, is it worth it?? and by the way, I just built a 455 olds, and it is very stout. just figured the 454 would be a good project motor if it is worth it. the year is a 1973, if that means anything to yall.
The round bore is a more desirable block. :rollside:
I assume you mean rectangle port head, all BBC engine make great jetboat engines. Being you have jetboat engine building experience, you know the drill on the cam lobe seperations right? they still apply. Take your time and do it right, there is lots of great advice to be heard here, for both Ford and Chevy engines. Start lookng for your mounts now, so youe wiil have them when your ready to convert over. have fun..

[Brooski]

When I had my engine redone last year, my block had a crack in the cylinder wall. I paid $300 for a used bare block. If the bottom end is complete, you cant beat the price.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

The Big Block Chevy is a great muscle motor for 2 main reasons IMO. First, it was a racing engine, born & bread to stand toe to toe in the 60's with the legend of NASCAR, the Chrysler Hemi, and come out on top. Seccond, it was so good at that reason that it became very popular as the base for so many racing engines at professional levels that parts are several times easier to get, and often half as costly as those for Fords, Olds, or Chryslers. It does make the pick & choose process a lot tougher. The Chevy doesn't have any of the oiling system problems of the Olds at high rpm since it was designed to operate there, unlike the big olds yet doesn't have to be spun half to death to make power. Sure, there are better aftermarket parts out there like heads, rods, cranks, but the factory items are not slackers and can be pushed hard, especially at sub-6K rpm levels IMO (can ya tell I'm a Bowtie Motor fan. :D
You've already built an expensive & tough engine to hot-rod sucessfully, the Chevy is easy, so is kinda cookie-cutter that way, nothing unusual or unique.

[Wally_Gator]

I would say jump on it for the same reasons mentioned above.
I built my Olds 455 two years ago and two weeks ago I picked up a free Merc 454 short block that is now torn down getting ready for the machine shop and new parts.
Get some casting numbers so you know what you are buying..
At the price, you can't beat it.

[NautiII]

thanks for all the input. but, should I get the motor based on the casting numbers, or, for the price, just buy it anyway, no matter what the numbers?

[Wally_Gator]

thanks for all the input. but, should I get the motor based on the casting numbers, or, for the price, just buy it anyway, no matter what the numbers?
Some of the more experienced on here can chime in, but I think based on the year it should be a safe bet. It is always nice to know the application of the block and it's dimensions. Some are tall deck vs short deck and 2 bolt mains versus 4 bolt mains.

[V1800J]

Hey Sleekcrafter
I missed class the day they taught about "cam lobe seperations". Can you review the info for me. Thanks

[sleekcrafter]

Hey Sleekcrafter
I missed class the day they taught about "cam lobe seperations". Can you review the info for me. Thanks
In a nut shell you can read it here:
http://boatheaders.com/reversion.htm

[NautiII]

ok, here is the scoop on the 454 motor. the head #s are 353049, which according to MorTec, are, oval, open, 454, 122cc chamber, 255/119cc ports, and the block #s are 3999289, 454, 2 or 4 bolt main. not sure of that yet, have not pulled off the pan to see. so, any comments?

[IMPATIENT 1]

In a nut shell you can read it here:
http://boatheaders.com/reversion.htm
good article sleek!

[victorfb]

IMHO id say buy it. (but it never hurts to haggle). most likely a 2 bolt which is just fine. 2 bolt blocks are still plenty strong. i would however insist that you make the deal to allow you to have it checked out first. a good used block will run you around $200 or so anyway. what makes him think the cam is bad?

[dmontzsta]

The Big Block Chevy is a great muscle motor for 2 main reasons IMO. First, it was a racing engine, born & bread to stand toe to toe in the 60's with the legend of NASCAR, the Chrysler Hemi, and come out on top. Seccond, it was so good at that reason that it became very popular as the base for so many racing engines at professional levels that parts are several times easier to get, and often half as costly as those for Fords, Olds, or Chryslers. It does make the pick & choose process a lot tougher. The Chevy doesn't have any of the oiling system problems of the Olds at high rpm since it was designed to operate there, unlike the big olds yet doesn't have to be spun half to death to make power. Sure, there are better aftermarket parts out there like heads, rods, cranks, but the factory items are not slackers and can be pushed hard, especially at sub-6K rpm levels IMO (can ya tell I'm a Bowtie Motor fan. :D
You've already built an expensive & tough engine to hot-rod sucessfully, the Chevy is easy, so is kinda cookie-cutter that way, nothing unusual or unique.
I wouldnt say half as costly.

[Wally_Gator]

I wouldnt say half as costly.
Come on Don... Is your blue oval feeling a little orange parts envy?

[sleekcrafter]

Come on Don... Is your blue oval feeling a little orange parts envy?
:eek: I'm sorry did you say something? I was distracted by your avitar :D
Sleek

[Wally_Gator]

The only bad thing I see about getting the 454 is...
What combination are you going to put in it... There are sooo many...
I just picked up a set of BME pistons for mine...

[Wally_Gator]

:eek: I'm sorry did you say something? I was distracted by your avitar :D
Sleek
Yea I said some thing...
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Look Left at Avatar Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Look Left at Avatar Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Look Left at Avatar Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Look Left at Avatar Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

[dmontzsta]

Come on Don... Is your blue oval feeling a little orange parts envy?
haha, not at all. We are out to set the record straight.
My total cost when finished will be around $5k, the motor will be 650-700hp and spin 7,500 rpm all day with a single 830 cfm carb. If you ask me, that is not twice the cost.
:)

[Wally_Gator]

haha, not at all. We are out to set the record straight.
My total cost when finished will be around $5k, the motor will be 650-700hp and spin 7,500 rpm all day with a single 830 cfm carb. If you ask me, that is not twice the cost.
:)
Are you going with a forged crank this time? I would hate to see the angular crank effect like the last time Organ Donor was at Elsinore...
Budget, I dont need no stinking budget...
Uh wait.. Yes I do my wife is standing over me...

[dmontzsta]

Are you going with a forged crank this time? I would hate to see the angular crank effect like the last time Organ Donor was at Elsinore...
Budget, I dont need no stinking budget...
Uh wait.. Yes I do my wife is standing over me...
Yeah, I have a internal balanced forged crank, it is getting treated and bull-nosed, it is a factory 429 Ford crank, it is illusive. :) Paul is going to come on and tell me shit now. :D
Organ Donor had a stock 390 with 9 seasons on it, 9 HARD LONG seasons. The 175 shot of N20 was enough to send that knocking rod into a tail spin.
:)
Just tell the wife it will get better gas mileage, that works, unless you have used it already. :crossx:

[Wally_Gator]

Yeah, I have a internal balanced forged crank, it is getting treated and bull-nosed, it is a factory 429 Ford crank, it is illusive. :) Paul is going to come on and tell me shit now. :D
Organ Donor had a stock 390 with 9 seasons on it, 9 HARD LONG seasons. The 175 shot of N20 was enough to send that knocking rod into a tail spin.
:)
Just tell the wife it will get better gas mileage, that works, unless you have used it already. :crossx:
Ahh... She is alright with the whole thing... Just as long as she gets her new couch..
I am looking at a year to put this one together.. Gota save my cans for the AFR heads... I might have a line on a 75 sleekcraft as a hull. Going to take a look tomorrow...

[dmontzsta]

Ahh... She is alright with the whole thing... Just as long as she gets her new couch..
I am looking at a year to put this one together.. Gota save my cans for the AFR heads... I might have a line on a 75 sleekcraft as a hull. Going to take a look tomorrow...
You are not putting the chevy in your rogers?
Funny how that works huh? get them what they want, you get what you want...I always seem to come out with the better of the deal though. :)

[Wally_Gator]

You are not putting the chevy in your rogers?
Funny how that works huh? get them what they want, you get what you want...I always seem to come out with the better of the deal though. :)
Yea, Considering not putting it in the rogers...
1. I have 2/3 stringers in the boat.. Older than most other rogers we have seen on the boards 71..
2. Some have advised that this hull might be a bit squirrley if I lift it too much more out of the water..
So if I successfully build a 700-800 hp motor. I might be a little nervous using the Hp I built in the Rogers.... Right now I am selecting my parts for the 496... I already have an excellent donor block. (free)
If this hull I found is a good donor I might build it and have fun in the Rogers..
Right now the rogers is on the stand in the garage.. Damage I did not see when I gelled it reared it's ugly head..

[NautiII]

IMHO id say buy it. (but it never hurts to haggle). most likely a 2 bolt which is just fine. 2 bolt blocks are still plenty strong. i would however insist that you make the deal to allow you to have it checked out first. a good used block will run you around $200 or so anyway. what makes him think the cam is bad?
the only reason I would buy it is to have a spare motor, and give me something to rebuild. the owner of it said that it had a hard time starting, and when he took off the valve covers, the rockers were barely moving. thinks the cam went flat..? what is the deal with port shapes? not really sure.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I wouldnt say half as costly.
No, not quite half the cost. A friend of mine is building a 460 to chase my 454 and is finding $300 oil pans and $350 intakes to be the norm. Anywhere from 30 to 50% more expensive on SOME parts, but by no means on all them. The aftermarket performance add-ons seem to be the worst.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

IMO, for most boat enginer uses, the Large Oval port heads are the way to go. I'm running a set of '049's myself, and they make great power, the breathe well at higher revs, and, if you spend a little $$$ on a GOOD porting job ($700 to 1K here depending on valve work), they have a tremendous potential.
The small oval ports (peanut-port heads) are great down low, but choke the life out of the engine above about 3,500 RPM, it just can't breathe. The rectangle ports are so large that the velocity of the mixture in the intake passages is to low untill you get the engine up over about 5-grand that they are a pretty-much screaming full-racer-only item.
The Peanut ports were traditionally a truck-engine part.
The large ovals were a comon passenger car and hot-rod part, especially with the larger valves.
The rectangles were used pretty much on the no-holds-barred hi-reving
race engines.

[NautiII]

IMO, for most boat enginer uses, the Large Oval port heads are the way to go. I'm running a set of '049's myself, and they make great power, the breathe well at higher revs, and, if you spend a little $$$ on a GOOD porting job ($700 to 1K here depending on valve work), they have a tremendous potential.
The small oval ports (peanut-port heads) are great down low, but choke the life out of the engine above about 3,500 RPM, it just can't breathe. The rectangle ports are so large that the velocity of the mixture in the intake passages is to low untill you get the engine up over about 5-grand that they are a pretty-much screaming full-racer-only item.
The Peanut ports were traditionally a truck-engine part.
The large ovals were a comon passenger car and hot-rod part, especially with the larger valves.
The rectangles were used pretty much on the no-holds-barred hi-reving
race engines.
how do I know if they are peanut oval or not?

[dmontzsta]

The Big Block Chevy is a great muscle motor for 2 main reasons IMO. First, it was a racing engine, born & bread to stand toe to toe in the 60's with the legend of NASCAR, the Chrysler Hemi, and come out on top. Seccond, it was so good at that reason that it became very popular as the base for so many racing engines at professional levels that parts are several times easier to get, and often half as costly as those for Fords, Olds, or Chryslers. It does make the pick & choose process a lot tougher. The Chevy doesn't have any of the oiling system problems of the Olds at high rpm since it was designed to operate there, unlike the big olds yet doesn't have to be spun half to death to make power. Sure, there are better aftermarket parts out there like heads, rods, cranks, but the factory items are not slackers and can be pushed hard, especially at sub-6K rpm levels IMO (can ya tell I'm a Bowtie Motor fan. :D
You've already built an expensive & tough engine to hot-rod sucessfully, the Chevy is easy, so is kinda cookie-cutter that way, nothing unusual or unique.
Sorry, I have to come back to this post.
The BBC had problems finishing a race let alone winning one....check out the history. Go to the NASCAR website and see how many Chevys won races in the 60s, they can be counted on 1 hand. The NASCAR website will have all the wins and Chevy is missing from the win columns. The Hemi was a turd too, it was raced in a midsize car and the Fords were in full size Galaxies. Also, building a Chevy or any motor is more difficult than making a paper airplane. They are all pretty much the same to put together.
The old 409 had problems running over its crankshaft and the forerunner to the 396-454 had the same basic problem. It made power because of the 454 style head but the lower end had problems staying together.
The BBC is a truck engine, evolved from the 348 and 409. Not really a "race" engine.

[NautiII]

ok, from reading all the post here, I am starting to change my mind on building this motor. First, I drive a Ford Bronco, which I rebuilt from the ground up, and it has a very healthy motor. second, my boat has a healthy Olds motor. I was just going to build this motor as a project. but, now, I may just pass it up. I appreciate all the input. they guy that has this motor also has 2 sb 350's, and a 429 with heads. if anyone is interested. he lives in Florence.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

how do I know if they are peanut oval or not?
The peanut small ports are flattened intake ports. They are far smaller than the large ovals on the '049 heads, about as wide, but flattened. They got nicknamed "peanut ports" since they resemble an un-shelled peanut vaugely.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Sorry, I have to come back to this post.
The BBC had problems finishing a race let alone winning one....check out the history. Go to the NASCAR website and see how many Chevys won races in the 60s, they can be counted on 1 hand. The NASCAR website will have all the wins and Chevy is missing from the win columns. The Hemi was a turd too, it was raced in a midsize car and the Fords were in full size Galaxies. Also, building a Chevy or any motor is more difficult than making a paper airplane. They are all pretty much the same to put together.
The old 409 had problems running over its crankshaft and the forerunner to the 396-454 had the same basic problem. It made power because of the 454 style head but the lower end had problems staying together.
The BBC is a truck engine, evolved from the 348 and 409. Not really a "race" engine.
The chevy being such a frail beast ..... Owned Can-Am in the 60's ..
Ford would power its only Can-Am victory in 1966 when Dan Gurney won at Bridgehampton. The rest of the time the Can-Am was Chevy Bowtie territory.
In 1968 the big-block Chevy became the powerplant of choice, packing over 620 hp into an all-aluminum ZL-1 engine.
Now, Porche eventually came up with a 1,000 hp turbo to beat the chevys.
The 396 thru 454, the Mark IV, were far different from the "W" engine, either the 348 "Turbo Thrust" engine, intended to be a truck engine, or it's outgrowth, the 409.
1963, Chevrolet showed up at the Daytona SpeedWeeks with a completely new big-block engine design. Press-types, having never before seen this engine, dubbed it the “Mystery Motor”. Chevrolet called it the Mark II engine. Competitors called it unfair and a host of other things unsuitable for print in a family magazine. This was, of course, the forerunner to the familiar Mark IV big-block engine.
The MkIV started life as the mystery engine of the 1963 Daytona 500, the Mark II. Now, the early 427's had a weak set of rods & bolts when pushed too hard, cured in 1969.

[dmontzsta]

The chevy being such a frail beast ..... Owned Can-Am in the 60's ..
Ford would power its only Can-Am victory in 1966 when Dan Gurney won at Bridgehampton. The rest of the time the Can-Am was Chevy Bowtie territory.
In 1968 the big-block Chevy became the powerplant of choice, packing over 620 hp into an all-aluminum ZL-1 engine.
Now, Porche eventually came up with a 1,000 hp turbo to beat the chevys.
The 396 thru 454, the Mark IV, were far different from the "W" engine, either the 348 "Turbo Thrust" engine, intended to be a truck engine, or it's outgrowth, the 409.
1963, Chevrolet showed up at the Daytona SpeedWeeks with a completely new big-block engine design. Press-types, having never before seen this engine, dubbed it the “Mystery Motor”. Chevrolet called it the Mark II engine. Competitors called it unfair and a host of other things unsuitable for print in a family magazine. This was, of course, the forerunner to the familiar Mark IV big-block engine.
The MkIV started life as the mystery engine of the 1963 Daytona 500, the Mark II. Now, the early 427's had a weak set of rods & bolts when pushed too hard, cured in 1969.
Ford pulled the plug on the Can Am racing [as well as ALL other forms of racing] just weeks after entering it, of course it was Chevy land because thats all there was competing. You brought up NASCAR, I didnt. Look up how many Chevys won in NASCAR from 1960 to 1970. I only have the stats from 1949 thru 1967 so lets use 1960 thru 67 since 1960 is considered the beginning of the modern era. NASCAR- Ford:149 Chevy:53. USAC- Ford: 43 Chevy: 2. Put your bowtie on and chew on that for a while. :)
Also, to bring it up to date...
"Starting with Jimmy Florian's win in 1950, Ford leads all Cup manufacturers with 546 victories all-time."

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I don't really care to argue it Dmontsa, :argue: never really did. Have it your way man.
The Chevrolet engines are all fragile as lead crystal. Closest thing to a pre-built grenade as was ever put in a vehicle.
The Mopars are heavy, slow turds, can't even get out of their own way, especially that darned Hemi.
Fords are worth 3x their weight in gold, as close to perfection as is likely possible by humans.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I STILL think, for under $200, he ought to buy the engine, if he wants to build up a "spare" (lotsa different parts to replace tho) for his Olds, or to convert it. He can build that 454 to do anything he wants it to do, and on a decent budget. If it was a running engine, it is a good solid block, has good, solid rotating parts, has good all-around performance heads, in esence a great base to build a great boat engine on.
If he had instead found a 429/460 Ford, D0 or (better) CJ heads, I'd say the exact same thing about it Dmontzsta. :rolleyes:

[dmontzsta]

It is not really arguing, it is an online debate in a forum. I never said the Chevy was a fragile POS, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said Mopars suck either.
I was simply trying to clear up what you said. When I read it, I could tell you did not know what you were saying. This is why there are so many Chevy lovers today, that dont know what they are doing. It is monkey see, monkey do. You had this guy snowed over, he was thinking he had a NASCAR engine.
Also, the parts for parts, are about the same price. I noticed you said your buddy was finding "$300 oil pans". That leaves the gate wide open. Go to Dooley and try to get a pan for a Chevy or a Ford, same price. It is all about what you want. I can go buy a set of Eagle SIR rods, good for 650hp, for $250, or I can buy a set for $800.
Once again, nothing personal. But I get tired of all the Chevy guys, they talk and talk and talk, but I just let them. I think to myself most of the time, should I debate back, but naww, just let them talk. Monkey see, monkey do. This thread is the perfect example of how that has happened in the world today. There are Chevy guys that love their engines for a reason. Then there are Chevy guys who own them cause they heard about the cheap parts and how they are the best motor built.
Real engine lovers, know about all of the engines, not just theirs. I can always tell a real chevy lover, cause he will have respect and know about all other motors. The chevy lovers that are just bandwaggoning, cause they feel a need to "pick" and fight for one or the other, then spread bad things about Fords, Olds, Mopar, etc...are the ones hurting the sport. How great would the world of motorsports be, if everyone drove a chevy? or even a ford, it would not be fun to beat up on the same thing everytime.
I know chevy guys who like to poke jokes at me, but deep inside they are just playing. With the world being as delusional as today, there are people who really believe themselves and are not playing.
Dont be so upset, you seem like a little kid powting after he was scolded. I hope you do not take this as a personal attack, it is just an open attack. :)

[dmontzsta]

I really dont think he should buy a spare engine, Ford or Chevy, but it is his money. It sounds like he just built a strong 455 olds. The olds is another example of people listening to people and so on. It is not a bad motor. But someone heard someone say it was, so it must be. I have seen some STRONG running olds. If this guy is like me, or the most of the others on here, he is on a certain budget. But, like me and others, always looking for another project. Hopefully, I just helped save him money for an IRA, CD (savings account), TV, 20 trips to the lake, or is kids college fund. :)

[Wally_Gator]

The olds....
Dollar for dollar it costs more to build reliabily.. Parts are more expensive and more has to be done to get reliable hp from it...
To build a chevy motor as a spare and possable future conversion has alot of draws...
First off being resale value. Boats with Chevy motors have higher resale value versus Olds motors..
Second.. Parts availability.. I don't think anyone can argue the sheer breadth of parts that are available for chevy versus any other brand.
Last thing...I think Smoking was treferring to your comment "The BBC had problems finishing a race let alone winning one....check out the history." as the chevy being such a frail beast...

[dmontzsta]

I just cannot keep my mouth shut, once I get started.
How many times has Chevy won Le Mans? Ford won at Le Mans 4 times with the 427, thats 4 more times than Chevy. :D

[NautiII]

wow, what did I start here?? I have only built a ford and olds motor. I was looking to broaden my knowledge a little bit and give me a project to work on. I can also get a FOrd 429 as well. I can get both if I want. I was just trying to get some info on the chevy motor. I do not have a big budget. I just like to tinker a little bit. I appreciate everyones input. I learn more everyday. that is why I put these questions out to yall. but, If I do build a motor, it will be done right. I am in no hurry. I still have my boat to finish. see my post, 72 Kona project. pics of my motor there. thanks again all of you who provide input. it is invaluable to me!

[dmontzsta]

I hope I did not trash your thread with this info. I just dont like incorrect info out there, since people really believe most of the stuff they read on here. :)

[NautiII]

I hope I did not trash your thread with this info. I just dont like incorrect info out there, since people really believe most of the stuff they read on here. :)
not at all!!! I know everyone has there opinions. I also know that when I build a motor, it is done correctly, no matter what kind it is. I apreciate your input. I may go with the Ford motor to build, since I know more about them. thanks again!!

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Dont be so upset, you seem like a little kid powting after he was scolded. I hope you do not take this as a personal attack, it is just an open attack. :)
Feel free to call it pouting if you want D, I care not. What I calll it is walking away from a "Who is better, Ford or Chevy" debate that I had zero interest in from page 1. Since I care not to argue it further, spin it however you want.

[dmontzsta]

Feel free to call it pouting if you want D, I care not. What I calll it is walking away from a "Who is better, Ford or Chevy" debate that I had zero interest in from page 1. Since I care not to argue it further, spin it however you want.
I will leave it as is. I just mainly wanted to clear things up. People really believe alot of what they hear from other people. No hard feelings.