what rockers are you guys running on your bbc

[wickedfab]

i ran aluminum ones until the trunion sp? busted on one and wiped out the motor. brand is unknown. i want a good set that wont let go again. there are on a mild bbc with a hydro cam. will something like the crane golds be fine, i was thinking some crower or comp steel ones?
what are you running?

[WannabeRacing]

Allow me to tell you a little secret. Around 75% of all of the aluminum rocker arms are made by one company. There are many different names, colors, and a few different sizes , but it is all the same thing. In fact, you could call that company and have your name put on them if you order however many sets. So when you hear brand differences, remember, many of the brands are just different colors.
Another secret. If you are running aluminum rockers, be prepared to have them break. It is just the way it goes. Yeah, they are nice, yeah they are cheap, yeah they make good performance, but they do break. It may take years to do so, but they break. Much is Dependant on the temperatures, warming rituals, time, heating/cooling cycles, spring pressure and rpms. But they will break. I break jesels like clockwork. I think everyone that runs them does. We just know about when they break and change them out. But even then. . . Good maintenance schedules help. When you are putting new pistons, rods, er whatever into the engine for a freshen- buy brand new ones. It is much cheaper than the risk. I know there are guys on here that have run them for an eternity. But that is usually the exceptions and not the general rule. In my opinion, buy a no name brand that looks just like the brand name before buying a well used set at the swap meet. It is like buying used aluminum rods. They look great but you can't know the history.
Or if you want to get new ones that will outlast the engine- go get a set of the crower stainless deals. They are the best of the bunch by a fair margin. The comps are O.K. and the Cat are rough but decent. The stainless rockers will outlast the aluminum ones.
Sorry to hear about the loss of a good engine. Any time you hear something not quite right, pull the valve covers. The majority of the failures will be seen there. Catch the problem before it becomes a catastrophe. (Easier said than done, but even caught one time is better than the alternative.)

[241Libby]

I just converted to rollers and went with Trick Flows. I also considered the Golds and Harland Sharps and from what I have read and heard, all are pretty good. Trick Flows were right in the middle from a cost standpoint and they are well known for their performance heads among other and doubt they would put their name on an inferior roller.
Good luck

[Moneypitt]

STOCKERS.........8th wonder of the world...........There are some good deals on the Crower SS from Jegs and/or Herbert, but IMO they are not necessary on a mild hyd valvetrain... I'm really curious, how did you manage to break a rocker arm with hydrolic lifters??? What is the seat pressure?.........MP
PS: We have ran the same 16 Crowers in the PS boat since 1989 and before. Never a problem with the valvetrain with 225 on the seat and up to 7850 RPMs........BUT, we do run a rev kit, and a girdle..........

[DetroitJim]

What he said, mild hydraulic cam, put the stockers back on it and go for a boat ride.

[Unchained]

Or if you want to get new ones that will outlast the engine- go get a set of the crower stainless deals. They are the best of the bunch by a fair margin.
I was glad to read this, I've run the stainless Crowers for 7 seasons.

[wickedfab]

thnx thats some good info. im probably ganna sac up and get the crowers. when it broke i didnt here a thing. at 5k rpm it felt like it ran out of fuel. tried to start it and it didnt budge. this was at the end of last season and now trying to get ready for this season. the rocker broke and wedged the valve open, piston took off the valve at the stem and rattled around a bit. i found valve in the piston and headers etc. pulled it apart and already got the head redone, just some ported ovals and the short block needs a piston. so i guess it wasnt too bad. but the motor i have goint in is a rec port running aluminum rockers and i want piece of mind on the water. im assuming it broke like said above years of abuse. next season will be valve springs/some porting, and a solid roller cam.

[Jetaholic]

I'll be running Scorpion roller rockers on mine. Under the spring pressures I'm running (395lbs open pressure) these will be perfect. They're rated for about 800lbs.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Aluminums break, period
When I upgrade from my stockers, I'm intending to go Comp Pro Magnum Steels, for less $$$ than a LOT of aluminums, and never worry about them.

[texas-19]

Aluminums break, period
When I upgrade from my stockers, I'm intending to go Comp Pro Magnum Steels, for less $$$ than a LOT of aluminums, and never worry about them.
Same here,comp cams pro magnums stainless steel for several years on a solid roller,worry free.

[gn7]

Allow me to tell you a little secret. Around 75% of all of the aluminum rocker arms are made by one company. There are many different names, colors, and a few different sizes etc...
you are 100% right, but for the $64,000 who is that company? Crane, Isky, and maybe 1or2 more CAM companies make their own rockers every one else is the same stuff. And all alum rockers have a limited life some just a little longer than others under the same conditions. I prefer my alum rocker to be made 2024 and not a lot of companies are making them right now.

[Morg]

Aluminums break, period
When I upgrade from my stockers, I'm intending to go Comp Pro Magnum Steels, for less $$$ than a LOT of aluminums, and never worry about them.
I have a used set of the Comp pro magnums I will sell you. One season old.
I broke exhg, rocker on #6. It was replaced under warranty.
I would say they are an ok deal if you get a set without any casting flaws. The rocker that broke had an air bubble in the bottom below the trunnion.
I will not run them anymore.
Hard to know if the flaw was the only cause. Just got me concerned about a cast rocker. And I never liked how thin they were under the trunnion.
Look at it this way, they are tested & all passed except one. 7700 rpm for five laps. They lasted for 80 gallons of gas & 70 gallons of methanol.
Make ya a hell of a deal.:D :D :D

[MikeF]

thnx thats some good info. im probably ganna sac up and get the crowers. when it broke i didnt here a thing. at 5k rpm it felt like it ran out of fuel. tried to start it and it didnt budge. this was at the end of last season and now trying to get ready for this season. the rocker broke and wedged the valve open, piston took off the valve at the stem and rattled around a bit. i found valve in the piston and headers etc. pulled it apart and already got the head redone, just some ported ovals and the short block needs a piston. so i guess it wasnt too bad. but the motor i have goint in is a rec port running aluminum rockers and i want piece of mind on the water. im assuming it broke like said above years of abuse. next season will be valve springs/some porting, and a solid roller cam.
I trying to understand how a broken rocker arm wedged the valve open? Do you have any pictures of the damage before tearing it all down?
Was it an exhaust or intake valve?

[GofastRacer]

Aluminums break, period
They do?????????, my 20 year old Crane Gold's are still doing fine. I'd do my home work on the Comp's though I been hearing a lot of negative stuff about them.. If I was to go that route I'd get the Crowers instead can't beat them!.. Now this K motor I'm building is getting a set of Jesel's, mainly because they came with the heads!..:D

[wickedfab]

i do not have any pics of the rocker wedging the valve open. it was an exhaust valve....i found pieces of valve in the header.lol.
one side trunnion broke completly off the other side stayed put. so the rocker was sitting in there at an angle. i cant remember if it was the pushrod unseated the made it stay open but it was stuck open.

[Fiat48]

They do?????????, my 20 year old Crane Gold's are still doing fine. I'd do my home work on the Comp's though I been hearing a lot of negative stuff about them.. If I was to go that route I'd get the Crowers instead can't beat them!.. Now this K motor I'm building is getting a set of Jesel's, mainly because they came with the heads!..:D
Thought I was alone in not breaking rockers till I read this.
Early Cranes had small trunions and I have seen the trunions broken in the center (at swap meets). However I ran them for years and never had a problem. Later Crane increased the trunion size (as most other brands have also) and I have not seen any broken nor have broken any.
Currently running Lunati (same as Crane) and no problems. I like the Millers like we did on Morgs and would do them if I were to change.
Lotta funky rocker geometry out there and could be the cause of some breakage.

[steelcomp]

Thought I was alone in not breaking rockers till I read this.
No, no...another one, here. I've never broken a rocker. I have 6 seasons on my Golds this year, and the Mandella has a set of the big blue Iskys that are 25 yrs. old in an endurance application. Edelbrock used to (maybe still do) make a big red rocker that was about indestructable.
There is more than one company making rockers, but for arguments sake, in regards to the one company that makes several different brands, it dosen't matter. They're just a manufacturer, and each brand of rocker has it's own design, it's own specs, it's own tolerances, etc. Just because the same company makes them means nothing.
Be careful with the Comp rockers, and any other "middle application" rocker for that matter. A large % of rocker falilure is due to improper valve train geometry, but it's also due to using a rocker beyond it's design limitations. Many mfgr's will tell you not to exceed X amount of spring pressure. Check before you use.
IMO, Millers are as good as it gets.

[steelcomp]

i do not have any pics of the rocker wedging the valve open. it was an exhaust valve....i found pieces of valve in the header.lol.
one side trunnion broke completly off the other side stayed put. so the rocker was sitting in there at an angle. i cant remember if it was the pushrod unseated the made it stay open but it was stuck open.My guess is the rocker wasn't the problem.

[steelcomp]

They do?????????, my 20 year old Crane Gold's are still doing fine. I'd do my home work on the Comp's though I been hearing a lot of negative stuff about them.. If I was to go that route I'd get the Crowers instead can't beat them!.. Now this K motor I'm building is getting a set of Jesel's, mainly because they came with the heads!..:DI think if you call Comp they will tell you not to exceed a certain amount of open pressure with those rockers.
I'm not a fan of Jessel. T&D or Miller would be my choice for shaft mount.

[GofastRacer]

My guess is the rocker wasn't the problem.
Hey Scott, nice meetin ya at Ming too bad we didn't get to BS a bit, you going to Parker in April??..

[GofastRacer]

I think if you call Comp they will tell you not to exceed a certain amount of open pressure with those rockers.
I'm not a fan of Jessel. T&D or Miller would be my choice for shaft mount.
Yeah T&D is the shit but these Jesel's are the ones that are connected so there is no worry about them moving!..

[steelcomp]

Hey Scott, nice meetin ya at Ming too bad we didn't get to BS a bit, you going to Parker in April??..That's funny...I was just going to post the same thing...sorry we didn't get a chance to chat. I would have liked that. I doubt I'll be at Parker in April, but you never know. I'll definately be at the 300, though. NJBA starts in a week and a half, so that's where my focus is...today. Tomorrow, who knows! :D

[steelcomp]

Yeah T&D is the shit but these Jesel's are the ones that are connected so there is no worry about them moving!..LOL...roger that. :D

[steelcomp]

I have a new set of Crane Golds...still in the box, make someone a heck of a deal.

[GofastRacer]

That's funny...I was just going to post the same thing...sorry we didn't get a chance to chat. I would have liked that. I doubt I'll be at Parker in April, but you never know. I'll definately be at the 300, though. NJBA starts in a week and a half, so that's where my focus is...today. Tomorrow, who knows! :D
Well, I'll be at the 300 for sure, see ya then!..

[GofastRacer]

I have a new set of Crane Golds...still in the box, make someone a heck of a deal.
Are they the variable ratio ones???.. How much??..

[Morg]

Real happy with the Miller's.
Impressed with the engineering built into the rocker for getting the geometry correct.
Price was also a pleasant surprise.

[GofastRacer]

Real happy with the Miller's.
Impressed with the engineering built into the rocker for getting the geometry correct.
Price was also a pleasant surprise.
Miller's are top quality!..

[steelcomp]

Are they the variable ratio ones???.. How much??..NO, just good 'ol Crane Golds...I think I just sold them.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

how much are the millers??? :idea:

[Machinist]

Hey Ryan - this is the guy who bought your boat...
99% of rocker failure is not caused by the rocker itself. It can be several different things ranging from guide clearances and high EGT's causing a stuck valve which then leads to the rocker rotating and subsequent breakage of parts, it can be caused by improper spring pressures leading to valve bounce on the seat - the shock of this over time can break a rocker. I have seen rockers that were not clearanced for the retainers get eaten on the inside radius which leads to the rocker breaking in half. But in your case my guess would be valve float or a stuck guide led to piston to valve contact which will break an aluminum rocker, and also explains the valve pieces in the exhaust, if you just break a rocker from fatigue it should not have broken a valve, you would have just had a broken rocker under your valve cover...make sure you spin your push rods, it is possible that you bent that one.
I am curious what rockers they were, what color were they?
Like was said by others, the Crower rockers are great, all our road race motors have them, we also use Crane Golds, and Isky(made by Probe) for the street motors.
What cam are you running, and what spring pressures did the machine shop set you up with?
EDIT: You broke the trunnion?? I have only seen that a few times, every one was from oil starvation letting the rollers eat the trunnion eventually weakening it to the point of breakage.

[wickedfab]

hows the boat coming along??
the rockers are just aluminum no color.
the egt should be low it was running way fat when it when it went boom.
the rockers have been on that boat a long time.
my parents bought it new,went through many motors etc finally had a descent one and they sell it. sold it about 12 years ago i saw it on cl last summer and had to buy it back. so i really know nothing about the heads except that my mom gasket matched them,and have severe manley valves.
the motor going back in is a rec port, same cam as the other i have no idea what it is steel crank yada yada. it ran hard when i had in it your boat.

[Machinist]

If your able to post a pic of the rockers, I'll tell you what they are.
Brian is rebuilding the pump and putting in a more aggressive impeller, and I am doing all the gauges and electrical this weekend. I have all the parts to build the motor now, just need to start the machine work; it's a Gen V based 489 with Dart 325's, Crane roller cam, and a victor intake - similar to our 750hp pump gas 502's, but with a smaller cam. Might get some paint work done, my buddy Bryan is a magazine published painter and does wicked graphics and flames. Been mulling over the idea of building a back-to-back 4 seat bench for it too....http://www.***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif

[HONDOG]

I just picked up a set of the CAT Stainless and I am happy with the finish quality on mine. I checked with the distributer and they are good for 1000# open pressure. much cheaper than Crowers.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I have a used set of the Comp pro magnums I will sell you. One season old.
I broke exhg, rocker on #6. It was replaced under warranty.
I would say they are an ok deal if you get a set without any casting flaws. The rocker that broke had an air bubble in the bottom below the trunnion.
I will not run them anymore.
Hard to know if the flaw was the only cause. Just got me concerned about a cast rocker. And I never liked how thin they were under the trunnion.
Look at it this way, they are tested & all passed except one. 7700 rpm for five laps. They lasted for 80 gallons of gas & 70 gallons of methanol.
Make ya a hell of a deal.:D :D :D
Interesting, and understandable, but since I am running (in the future) a max of 6-grand, 98% of the time a LOT less, on a hydraulic cam, and probably a lot lighter springs, perhaps we shall discuss this one of these days soon.:idea:

[Morg]

Interesting, and understandable, but since I am running (in the future) a max of 6-grand, 98% of the time a LOT less, on a hydraulic cam, and probably a lot lighter springs, perhaps we shall discuss this one of these days soon.:idea:
Probably a pretty good application for Comp. pro-magnums.
Let me know, they are siting on the bench w/ polylocks

[gn7]

No, no...another one, here. I've never broken a rocker
There is more than one company making rockers, but for arguments sake, in regards to the one company that makes several different brands, it dosen't matter.
IMO, Millers are as good as it gets.
I agree that for a stud mounted rocker Millers are top draw. The killer shaft rocker has to be T&D new steel jobs but you need a banker to buy them. And Steel you may be happy to know that the largest manuf. of alum rockers by a huge margin is DOVE as in FE DOVE, that Ford stuff is just a side line for him. Nobody could stay in business sell 1 set of heads a 2 manifolds a year if they weren't making something.

[gn7]

That's funny... I doubt I'll be at Parker in April, but you never know. I'll definately be at the 300, though. :D
sounds familiar, always the spectater, get that damn SPECTRA done damn it

[steelcomp]

I agree that for a stud mounted rocker Millers are top draw. The killer shaft rocker has to be T&D new steel jobs but you need a banker to buy them. And Steel you may be happy to know that the largest manuf. of alum rockers by a huge margin is DOVE as in FE DOVE, that Ford stuff is just a side line for him. Nobody could stay in business sell 1 set of heads a 2 manifolds a year if they weren't making something.
You'd be happy to know I already knew that, but thanks. I've talked with Jim (Dove) many times when I was building Cobras.
sounds familiar, always the spectater, get that damn SPECTRA done damn itspectator is spelled with an "o". :D Did I say I was going to spectate at the 300?? You might be a little nicer when a 17' Mandella passes you on the outside. :)

[LakesOnly]

I like the Millers like we did on Morgs and would do them if I were to change.Real happy with the Miller's.
Impressed with the engineering built into the rocker for getting the geometry correct.
Price was also a pleasant surprise.Miller's are top quality!..how much are the millers??? :idea:Jim Miller is quite the Ford nut (here goes Lakes again :rolleyes: ) and so wouldn't ya know he and I have been very well acquainted for some time. He was awarded the patent for "mid-lift" geomtery decades ago and his rocker designs are extremely well thought out and made of quality materials. He is primarily a very high end rocker manufacturer that most people have not heard of, as his stuff is normally very pricey, innovative, and an out-of-the-box design.
For reasons that I am not at liberty to say, last year Miller Engineering decidedly cut their ties with one of their primary distributors...and then offered High Flow Dynamics the remaining bulk of inventory of their PVS 1.8 ratio rockers. I put a "group deal" together with a team of business colleagues and we made a purchase. If you want 1.8 ratio Miller rockers on the cheap, we've got 'em and check this out:
Miller Roller Rocker 1.8 Ratio (yes, the same manufacturer as the $2800 Miller Boss hemi rocker arms),
Designed specifically to work with both BBC and BBF
Rocker body made of 7075-T7 aircraft aluminum
8620 billet steel trunnion axle which is rifle drilled for additional strength
Beefy oversize pin on roller tip
Generous rocker body material around the trunnion
Tiny pushrod cup oiling hole so as to help control top end oiling
Chromoly hammer forged polylocks (ie work hardened, not broached)
Establishing proper pushrod length is a snap with the top measuring face on the rocker (instructions inlcuded).
Complete set just $200
I don't think there's a better rocker arm package for the money, as none of the other rockers offered at this price come with comparable materials composition or technology behind them. We install these on all of our ported D0VE head conversions with great success and 100% customer satisfaction.
PM or call if interested,
LO

[gn7]

You'd be happy to know I already knew that, but thanks. I've talked with Jim (Dove) many times when I was building Cobras.
spectator is spelled with an "o". :D Did I say I was going to spectate at the 300?? You might be a little nicer when a 17' Mandella passes you on the outside. :)
ah don't be such a hater, look forward to seeing you at parker

[Beer-30]

I ended up with 1.75 Scorpions. After research, I noticed they build for alot of other names. Boy, one look at the race series rockers and you see why they rate them for 800lbs. Pretty thick.

[steelcomp]

ah don't be such a hater, look forward to seeing you at parker
LOL...always meant in fun. :D Look forward to meeting you, as well.

[steelcomp]

Jim Miller is quite the Ford nut (here goes Lakes again :rolleyes: ) and so wouldn't ya know he and I have been very well acquainted for some time. He was awarded the patent for "mid-lift" geomtery decades ago and his rocker designs are extremely well thought out and made of quality materials. He is primarily a very high end rocker manufacturer that most people have not heard of, as his stuff is normally very pricey, innovative, and an out-of-the-box design.
For reasons that I am not at liberty to say, last year Miller Engineering decidedly cut their ties with one of their primary distributors...and then offered High Flow Dynamics the remaining bulk of inventory of their PVS 1.8 ratio rockers. I put a "group deal" together with a team of business colleagues and we made a purchase. If you want 1.8 ratio Miller rockers on the cheap, we've got 'em and check this out:
Miller Roller Rocker 1.8 Ratio (yes, the same manufacturer as the $2800 Miller Boss hemi rocker arms),
Designed specifically to work with both BBC and BBF
Rocker body made of 7075-T7 aircraft aluminum
8620 billet steel trunnion axle which is rifle drilled for additional strength
Beefy oversize pin on roller tip
Generous rocker body material around the trunnion
Tiny pushrod cup oiling hole so as to help control top end oiling
Chromoly hammer forged polylocks (ie work hardened, not broached)
Establishing proper pushrod length is a snap with the top measuring face on the rocker (instructions inlcuded).
Complete set just $200
I don't think there's a better rocker arm package for the money, as none of the other rockers offered at this price come with comparable materials composition or technology behind them. We install these on all of our ported D0VE head conversions with great success and 100% customer satisfaction.
PM or call if interested,
LONever miss an opportunity, eh, Lakes? :D :D
I've spent a lot of time talking with Jim, and lerned a ton. He knows a lot more
than just building rockers. I like his approach because he dosen't get cought up in the unnecessary details...he has a very fundamental approach to what he does. His products are on the best engines out there, and with a product like his, word of mouth is his best advertizing.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Jim Miller is quite the Ford nut (here goes Lakes again :rolleyes: ) and so wouldn't ya know he and I have been very well acquainted for some time. He was awarded the patent for "mid-lift" geomtery decades ago and his rocker designs are extremely well thought out and made of quality materials. He is primarily a very high end rocker manufacturer that most people have not heard of, as his stuff is normally very pricey, innovative, and an out-of-the-box design.
For reasons that I am not at liberty to say, last year Miller Engineering decidedly cut their ties with one of their primary distributors...and then offered High Flow Dynamics the remaining bulk of inventory of their PVS 1.8 ratio rockers. I put a "group deal" together with a team of business colleagues and we made a purchase. If you want 1.8 ratio Miller rockers on the cheap, we've got 'em and check this out:
Miller Roller Rocker 1.8 Ratio (yes, the same manufacturer as the $2800 Miller Boss hemi rocker arms),
Designed specifically to work with both BBC and BBF
Rocker body made of 7075-T7 aircraft aluminum
8620 billet steel trunnion axle which is rifle drilled for additional strength
Beefy oversize pin on roller tip
Generous rocker body material around the trunnion
Tiny pushrod cup oiling hole so as to help control top end oiling
Chromoly hammer forged polylocks (ie work hardened, not broached)
Establishing proper pushrod length is a snap with the top measuring face on the rocker (instructions inlcuded).
Complete set just $200
I don't think there's a better rocker arm package for the money, as none of the other rockers offered at this price come with comparable materials composition or technology behind them. We install these on all of our ported D0VE head conversions with great success and 100% customer satisfaction.
PM or call if interested,
LO
Are these rockers shaft mounted?????????? Thats a smoking deal!!!!!!

[wickedfab]

https://www.competitionproducts.com/products.asp?dept=114
are these the miller you guys are talking about?
they look super beefy around the trunnion area, and descent deal to.
so
miller al
scorpion al
crowers ss
which would you choose keeping budget in mind

[Morg]

https://www.competitionproducts.com/products.asp?dept=114
are these the miller you guys are talking about?
they look super beefy around the trunnion area, and descent deal to.
so
miller al
scorpion al
crowers ss
which would you choose keeping budget in mind
Ding Ding Ding
That is where I ordered mine.

[LakesOnly]

Are these rockers shaft mounted?????????? Thats a smoking deal!!!!!!They are a 7/16" stud mounted roller rocker. Quality american made shaft rockers start in the 4-figure range.
LO

[LakesOnly]

https://www.competitionproducts.com/products.asp?dept=114
are these the miller you guys are talking about?
wickedfab,
Some of them are, and some of them aren't. The rockers we are selling are like the ones offered for $199 through Competition Products, except that I think that ours are an even newer production run yet.
There were several production runs of these rockers, and they were heavily revised after the 1st generation.
The $149 rockers in the above link are the 1st generation rockers. There is some unfortunate history behind the lesser priced ($149) Miller rockers being sold in the link above. Stay away from them. They are 1st generation production pieces from an entirely different foundry (made around 1998) that Jim had to recall and rework, at the roller tip pin and/or at the trunnion. Many of these 1st Generation rocker bodies were destroyed and unsavable during the rework process. Based on what was described to me personally by the manufacturer, the $149 version are not suitable for our marine use. Jim Miller is a straight-up individual who will defend his company's reputation all the way to admitting when a mistake was made and having to recall the 1st Generation. He dropped Competition Products' distributor status when he learned that they were not openly revealing that the $149 rockers have been reworked.
The rockers that we are selling are not those rockers. Our Miller PVS rockers are the later version from the back end of production that took place years later, meaning the very last that were ever made, totally revised, different foundry, brand new, as-manufactured, etc. They are identifiable by several ways, basically the finish, the color, and a few other features that the recalled 1st Generation rockers do not have. They originally retailed for $384/set and $310/Racer Net, and we are discounting them to just $200/set complete with chromoly polylocks.
Incidentally, the second production run was around 2002, and Jim anodized these the bronze color as you see in the $199 rockers in the link above (by the way, did you notice there are no pictures of the $149 rockers?). The mistake that Jim admittedly made was that when the rocker was revised he did not change the part number. Since everyone recognized the part number and associated it with the 1998 defective rocker run, sales of the new awesome rocker were sluggish.
All of Miller's recalled 1st Gen rockers have long sold out, most of them going to Competition Products. I told Jim that I'd buy out his remaining quality, later rockers and use them in builds, etc. And so, what we have for sale over here is the final run of the quality 1.8 ratio rockers, which is after the quality 2nd Generation bronze rockers. They are a light shiny silver-green ("ice green") in color that few have ever seen (not to be confused with the dark, flat peasoup-gray color of the reworked 1st Gen rockers). These quality "ice green" colored 1.8 ratio rocker sets never made it to market because the quality 2nd Generation bronze ones never completely sold out (we have a handful of those remaining ones, too). They are the later revised rocker with the better materials and characteristics.
As a conscientious salesman, I go over these details with everyone that expresses interest and purchases a set or two, just as I'm sure Jim would like me to do anyway.
Whether you buy from Competition Products or High Flow Dynamics is up to you, just be sure to buy the $199 rockers.
Whew, y'all follow all that? :D
LO

[LakesOnly]

so
miller al
scorpion al
crowers ss
which would you choose keeping budget in mindI will choose the Miller 7075-T7 rockers with the 8620 bilet steel trunnion, thanks very much! :D
Here's how they look when installed:
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657Steves472.jpg
LO

[LakesOnly]

Ding Ding Ding
That is where I ordered mine.Morg ol' buddy, I sure hope to hell you bought the $199 2nd generation bronze ones. PM me pronto if you did not.
LO

[LakesOnly]

Here's a little comparo I put together sometime ago that shows the attributes of the improved Miller rocker, side-by-side with the Crane Gold Series. Note that this is comparing to the 2nd Generation Crane (I never bothered to go with the newest Crane once I found these Millers):
In the picture below, I like the fact that the roller tip is exposed to splash oiling. Also note the rocker's top-side is a "measuring face" to facilitate setting pushrod length (makes setting up geometry so easy):
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657MillervsCrane1.jpg
In the photo below, note that while the trunnion axle & bearing are about the same size on both brands, the material around the Miller's trunnion is much beefier. Also, note the greater amount of material on either side of the roller tip on the Miller.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657MillerVsCrane2.jpg
In the photo below, note the rifle-drilled 8620 billet steel trunnion (4 walls better than 2) and also the larger diameter of the Miller's roller tip axle.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657MillerVsCrane3.jpg
Oil hole in pushrod cup is nice and small to help top end oil control:
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657MillerVsCrane4.jpg
Miller Rocker Material: 7070-T7 aircraft grade aluminum, while the Crane is 6061 (which is a fine alloy for aluminum rockers, but no as strong as 7075). This 7075-T7 material is metallurgically tested and certified in Florida. Tensile is around 75,000 +/- depending on temp, fatigue, etc. Destruct is around 20 tons. Cranes are about 15 tons, and the El Cheapos are in the butter department.
We put them in all the heads and motors we set up, most recently a 521 Blower engine that my partner shipped to Europe. 100% customer satisfaction.
No disrespect to the Cranes, as they are industry standard quality. I just like the Millers better.
LO

[steve d]

Bird's eye view...........Well done....Steve

[Stingray69]

http://www.mid-lift.com/PVS-PA.htm
Wanted to add that the aluminum is 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum billet bar stock, not cast, as might be inferred due to mention of foundry.

[YeLLowBoaT]

damn thats night and day....

[wickedfab]

i had the ss crowers in mind before i started this thread, but after reading through it i am leaning towards the millers. budget minded and im assuming comparably strong. even that crane one makes mine look like poop. i will post pics asap. i had in hand a scorpian 1.8 today and compared to the miller i would say miller is the way to go.
i will be ordering up a set in the future. if you can hook me up pm me special pricing ;) pm me
ryan

[LakesOnly]

Stingray, thanks for the clarification about the billet barstock.
Yes guys, these things really rock for the money. I remember a long time ago when I first approached Jim Miller about running these rockers. I was searching for a strong rocker for my drag hydro. I advised Jim that I intended to spin my hydro motor to 9000 rpm. His instant reply was, "you're going to love these rockers." Sometime later, I learned that he used to spin his Boss 429 Hemi to 9200 rpm back in the early 1970's, and this is what led him to start designing rocker arms in the first place.
We've got 'em for $200, complete set brand new with the chromoly 12-pt polylocks. But as of late they've been going fast. :jawdrop:
PM or call if interested; I will soon post an advertisement in the SPAM! section of the Forum.
LO

[wickedfab]

pmd ya

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

WHat about the crane shaft rockers? How well are they? I am honestly thinking about running shaft rockers due to all the pros vs cons........

[dmontzsta]

Stingray, thanks for the clarification about the billet barstock.
Yes guys, these things really rock for the money. I remember a long time ago when I first approached Jim Miller about running these rockers. I was searching for a strong rocker for my drag hydro. I advised Jim that I intended to spin my hydro motor to 9000 rpm. His instant reply was, "you're going to love these rockers." Sometime later, I learned that he used to spin his Boss 429 Hemi to 9200 rpm back in the early 1970's, and this is what led him to start designing rocker arms in the first place.
We've got 'em for $200, complete set brand new with the chromoly 12-pt polylocks. But as of late they've been going fast. :jawdrop:
PM or call if interested; I will soon post an advertisement in the SPAM! section of the Forum.
LO
Save me a set? :)

[LakesOnly]

Save me a set? :)Dmontzsta,
Given the same amount of crankshaft rotation with a 1.8 ratio rocker versus a 1.7 (or 1.73), the valve will be further off the seat with the 1.8 rocker.
Hell yes, we are putting these Miller rockers in your engine. ;)
LO

[waterloged]

I bought a set of these rockers from Lakes, and they are bad ass!!

[dmontzsta]

Dmontzsta,
Given the same amount of crankshaft rotation with a 1.8 ratio rocker versus a 1.7 (or 1.73), the valve will be further off the seat with the 1.8 rocker.
Hell yes, we are putting these Miller rockers in your engine. ;)
LO
That ****er is going to thump with those miller rockers! :D

[GofastRacer]

That ****er is going to thump with those miller rockers! :D
Ya think!..:D :D

[LakesOnly]

Okay, let's steer this thread back to a Gearheads theme.
I have received a couple of "feedbacks" where others are trying to tell me that the rockers in the photo below don't SEEM to be set up correctly. What has been pointed out to me over and over is that all the rockers "SEEM to be set the same," and on the low side at that (based on the location of the polylock within the rocker body)...looks like the wrong pushrod lengths, etc. Look at the picture, all the rockers are positioned/angled the same:
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657Steves472.jpg
And I am tired of expalining myself, SO...
Who here can tell the lovely audience why the valve train SEEMS to be set up incorrectly (although in reality everything is set up perfectly)?
The first person to post the correct answer as to why it SEEMS this way gets:
Ford Guys: Free oil pressure shim kit from High Flow Dynamics
Chevy Guys: Free used 1.75" 7/16 roller rocker studs (Qty: just 8) for spairs
Let the games begin,
LO

[bordsmnj]

ok, idiots first. i'm guessing that since the valves intake/exhuast are different sizes they are set up "different" to keep the rocker at the right angle to the top of the valve stem. i can't wait to hear the right answer though. that and the bottoms of the valve springs aren't at the same height. the bottoms of the studs are.

[MikeF]

Must be some type of Ford magic......cause it still looks incorrect to me too.:D
Worlds only .200 lift cam in a BBF?:devil:
All the valves look to be in a closed position.
Can't see how the midlift rockers are positioned and set up perfectly for the correct motion on that setup.
Only thing I can think is that the cam is in a position where the lobes are not pushing up on the lifters.....something to do with firing order.
:idea:

[Beer-30]

Well, I am not a Ford guy at all, so my knowledge of their valvetrain is zip. That being said, it looks to me like the studs are "angled" toward the outside of the head. Even the rockers that are at rest have the stud close to the outside end of the stud/trunion valley.

[1968Droptop]

Good reading here. Looking forward to seeing them on my engine Paul. Maybe I'll make a valve cover with a clear top so I can see them at all times, it'll be a shame to cover 'em up :D

[LakesOnly]

First of all, Fiat, Gofast, Moneypitt, 'comp, Wannabe, etc. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for not tossing the answer out into the open. ;)
LO

[earlbrown]

Who here can tell the lovely audience why the valve train SEEMS to be set up incorrectly (although in reality everything is set up perfectly)?[/QUOTE]
Parallax error from the focal point of the camera being so close to the subject matter.

[bordsmnj]

well?

[LakesOnly]

ok, idiots first. i'm guessing that since the valves intake/exhuast are different sizes they are set up "different" to keep the rocker at the right angle to the top of the valve stem.No, there are not tricks to setting up these rockers, they are set up like any other roller rocker and also have a feature that makes it EASY as hell to set them up.that, and the bottoms of the valve springs aren't at the same height...the bottoms of the studs are. Installed heights are all identical, heads are completely unmodified in the valve train area. Stop grasping at straws and think about it...the answer is plain and simple, and applies to many typical engines.
Well, I am not a Ford guy at all, so my knowledge of their valvetrain is zip. it looks to me like...the rockers that are at rest have the stud close to the outside end of the stud/trunion valley.Yes, people keep saying this...but why does it appear that way?
Must be some type of Ford magic......cause it still looks incorrect to me too.:D
Only thing I can think is that the cam is in a position where the lobes are not pushing up on the lifters.....something to do with firing order.:idea:OEM firing order, not that it would matter. C'mon, it's very typical..and much easier than that. No tricks in this engine.
All the valves look to be in a closed position.Aw MikeF, you are so close! Yes, they are all closed! But why, MikeF, why? Why are all the valves closed? C'mon, man! C'mon you are so close!
LO

[LakesOnly]

Who here can tell the lovely audience why the valve train SEEMS to be set up incorrectly (although in reality everything is set up perfectly)?
Parallax error from the focal point of the camera being so close to the subject matter.
No camera tricks here Earl. What you see is what you get (that's how they looked when we pulled the valve cover).
LO

[bordsmnj]

different rocker ratio's?? i got nothin'.
...or does it have to do with the cam and having a big difference in lift between intake and exhaust??

[LakesOnly]

No, and no.
HINT: Although everything has been installed correctly and run, when the picture was taken this engine had beed sitting awhile during the off-season.
LO

[MikeF]

I still do not see how all valves could be closed......seeing that some of the pistons would be in an intake part of the cycle (same for exhaust).
Rhoads Hydraulic lifters.:confused:

[LakesOnly]

All the valves look to be in a closed position.
I still do not see how all valves could be closed......seeing that some of the pistons would be in an intake part of the cycle (same for exhaust).
Well the valves could certainly appear that way IF.....
HINT: ... the picture was taken this engine had beed sitting awhile during the off-season.
C'mon, who's it going to be? I shouldn't have to work you guys this hard! Why do the rockers apeear as they do in the pic?
LO

[Beer-30]

1. Cam is flat?
2. All pushrods bent?
2.5 The studs have pulled up?
3. Even if lifters bled down, there would still be open valves - just not as much as normal

[bordsmnj]

because they're just sitting there. as in they were loosend up so ther would be no presure on them for the long winter???

[bordsmnj]

killin' me now:confused:

[wickedfab]

no oil pressure with hydro cam equals calapse lifters. therefore all the valves would be closed :D give em some pressure and then you can see what ones are open and closed ect......damn i hate hydro cams cant wait till i can get myself i nice solid roller.:devil:

[wickedfab]

thnx for the rockers......delivered on a sunday, sweet.
when you are ready to lower your truck let me know ;)

[1968Droptop]

because they're just sitting there. as in they were loosend up so ther would be no presure on them for the long winter???
That'd be my guess as well ?

[GofastRacer]

WOW, I can't believe nobody got this right off the bat,LOL.. There's absolutely nothing wrong there, and there is one correct answer and one good guess that makes sense except for the fact that??????..:D

[LakesOnly]

Even if lifters bled down, there would still be open valves - just not as much as normalno oil pressure with hydro cam equals colapsed lifters. therefore all the valves would be closed...
Judges?
Ding Ding Ding
Yes! The valve spring pressure of the cylinders with open valves overcame the pumped up hydraulic lifters and bled them down. Once the motor is fired, oil pressure will load the hydraullic lifters again and when the engine is stopped, the rockers will appear as they should.
Help me out here Judges! Which of these two answers is more accurate?
LO

[wickedfab]

lol.... he posted first.... if he wants the studs send them to him. ;)

[LakesOnly]

lol.... he posted first.... if he wants the studs send them to him. ;)Besides, you already got a smoking deal today! :D
Congratulations Beerjet, please PM me with your desired prize (choice of BBF oil pump shim kit or 8 BBC rocker studs).
LO

[bordsmnj]

doh!:mad:
:D lol, good show. i had a feeling i lost as soon as he said that but figured i'd try anyhow. now i'll go back to being happily bored. congrats on the free parts ,Beer-30 and/or wickedfab.:)

[Beer-30]

Well, I don't have anything that the studs will work in, so nevermind that. I was more curious as to what the angle was on the "closed" valves.
I think the contest between the answer would come down to which is the more ACCURATE answer.
IE, are the valves actually closed? or are the appropriate ones still .200 or so open? I don't recall ever knowing how much travel a hyd lifter (on average) has, but I wouldn't think it was more than .300 or maybe .400? On a cam that has .500 - .600 lift, I would think there would be some slightly opened valves still with flat lifters.
If I am indeed the winner, I give the prize to the runner-up.:)

[HammerDown]

Crowler Aluminum ...

[waterloged]

I will not have the guy's that didn't get it, adjust my valves!!:D

[Oldsquirt]

Just want to toss in a few comments and a picture. To achieve what Lakes has shown in his pic, and what is in my pic below, takes more than just hydraulic lifter "bleed down". You also have to have the engine rotated to just the right spot. In the case of the BBC in my pic below, almost all the valves on the right bank are closed. #4 & 6 intakes are slightly open. All exhaust appear to be closed and their pushrods spin easily. The engine has been rotated to just a few degrees past TDC #1 compression stroke. If I move it just a little, things start to change.
The plungers in the lifters for the #4 and #6 intake valves are probably .300" down in the lifter bodies. I doubt they will go any further.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Rockers1.JPG

[shirkey4750]

Bought A set of the Millers yesterday.

[steelcomp]

WOW, I can't believe nobody got this right off the bat,LOL.. There's absolutely nothing wrong there, and there is one correct answer and one good guess that makes sense except for the fact that??????..:D
I'm LMAO here.:D

[gn7]

now you know why Ford has a a lifter priority oiling system, MR.&MRS T-BIRD owner don't want to hear those pesky lifters klakking on start up. Screw that crank

[steelcomp]

now you know why Ford has a a lifter priority oiling system, MR.&MRS T-BIRD owner don't want to hear those pesky lifters klakking on start up. Screw that crankDon't be a hater, GN...:D
T Birds haven't had lifters for a long time.

[gn7]

yeah but I'm a really old guy and can almost still remember when they did

[058]

Don't be a hater, GN...:D
T Birds haven't had lifters for a long time.I must be ancient, I remember when T-birds had rockerarms and solid lifters.:D

[gn7]

I must be ancient, I remember when T-birds had rockerarms and solid lifters.:D
and mushroom lifters that had to go in before the cam was installed, yeah your old too.

[Moneypitt]

and mushroom lifters that had to go in before the cam was installed, yeah your old too.
Ever heard "Hey, what are those 16 clothespins in your tool box for?" "you doing laundry on the side?".............MP

[LakesOnly]

Received the rockers today, thank you Paul. Maybe now I'll get off my butt and finish this project up. Did I read somewhere that these are good for 7-8 mph or your money back? lol:D
Thanks again,
Rio->MichaelMy pleasure, Rio. Set those rockers up per the provided instructions and you will get perfect geometry and should also get the lift at the valve that the cam company advertises for your camshaft.
Incorrect or improperly spec'd valve train geometry usually nets less lift at the valve and can also load the valve train in such a way that the increased work imposed costs HP and causes irregular wear...as well as the cost in HP by way of the valve train action simply not being optimized (proper valve train geometry can have a valve further open with a few degrees of crank rotation than poorly set up valve train).
LO

[jungledave]

Okay, let's steer this thread back to a Gearheads theme.
I have received a couple of "feedbacks" where others are trying to tell me that the rockers in the photo below don't SEEM to be set up correctly. What has been pointed out to me over and over is that all the rockers "SEEM to be set the same," and on the low side at that (based on the location of the polylock within the rocker body)...looks like the wrong pushrod lengths, etc. Look at the picture, all the rockers are positioned/angled the same:
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657Steves472.jpg
And I am tired of expalining myself, SO...
Who here can tell the lovely audience why the valve train SEEMS to be set up incorrectly (although in reality everything is set up perfectly)?
The first person to post the correct answer as to why it SEEMS this way gets:
Ford Guys: Free oil pressure shim kit from High Flow Dynamics
Chevy Guys: Free used 1.75" 7/16 roller rocker studs (Qty: just 8) for spairs
Let the games begin,
LOhow about some free chrysler stuff??