FYI-Bowl Flow Rate's 7-9-11

[Pops@Aggressor]

Questions were sent to me on Diff- Flow rate's and why!
7 Vane 487 CFM Much Like a Berk except extension on straight water. Can also be used on larger boats to build a head pressure for lift. Very Limited Production.
9 Vane Impediance matched to Agg Impeller "A" @ 542CFM- Best for all around Race and Play. Has a minor Pressure drop when exchanged over another prior existing bowl due to increased flow rate. Max Output around 4900 GPM @ 538 FP Internal pressure. Bases: Dan Nelson Blown Gas Unit. Full On-Board system with Pedo-Tube. Data confirmed by Texaco Pump Engineering. 9 Vane vs 8 Vane harmonics. Both MPH and ET cut-with proper load.
11-Vane The Highest flow rate Bowl available-
Note: This Bowl requires High Horsepower and sound constent load. Bowl is quicker then 9 Vane -yet will not MPH as high as the 9Vane (Same Conditions). Agg- "A" or higher should be used and high end fuel should be fattened as Bowl vacates so quick, putting a constant demend on the Impeller for load and demend on motor. If any Load problems exist bowl will compound the problem. Lift head pressure will not be obtained under anything except full on throttle, causing the hull to sink and run deeper in the water when less then full on.
Hope this outlines the Bowls and flow rate applications.
2ND Question. Both the 9 & 11 require sound constant water loads (as every Jet should have) Our Impeller is a high draft/Load/Thrust Impeller. The Bowls react the same. We are seeing larger choke sizes being used with the bigger grunt motors of today. Blown Gas say was 3.090 to 3.125- now some are going to 3.187 and have requested 3.200 and 3.250 sizes. Others that want pure tug grunt @ constant have been using 3.250 for several years with "AA", are now getting "AAA" and 3.300 choke size. Last Year we built several 9 1/2" Impellers in "A" & "AA" and stated the Impellers were way to large for them in the Aggressor configuration to handle- maybe so in others but that in one heck of a lot of water to put that much squeeze on. And it was. Tom and a Fuel burner wanted a 9 1/2 "AA" once and I got them to agree on a 9 1/4" "AA" - It hit the fuel boat 1600+ Rs and got cut real quick.

[UBFJ #454]

Questions were sent to me on Diff- Flow rate's and why!
7 Vane 487 CFM Much Like a Berk except extension on straight water. Can also be used on larger boats to build a head pressure for lift. Very Limited Production.
9 Vane Impediance matched to Agg Impeller "A" @ 542CFM- Best for all around Race and Play. Has a minor Pressure drop when exchanged over another prior existing bowl due to increased flow rate. Max Output around 4900 GPM @ 538 FP Internal pressure. Bases: Dan Nelson Blown Gas Unit. Full On-Board system with Pedo-Tube. Data confirmed by Texaco Pump Engineering. 9 Vane vs 8 Vane harmonics. Both MPH and ET cut-with proper load.
11-Vane The Highest flow rate Bowl available-
Note: This Bowl requires High Horsepower and sound constent load. Bowl is quicker then 9 Vane -yet will not MPH as high as the 9Vane (Same Conditions). Agg- "A" or higher should be used and high end fuel should be fattened as Bowl vacates so quick, putting a constant demend on the Impeller for load and demend on motor. If any Load problems exist bowl will compound the problem. Lift head pressure will not be obtained under anything except full on throttle, causing the hull to sink and run deeper in the water when less then full on.
Hope this outlines the Bowls and flow rate applications.
2ND Question. Both the 9 & 11 require sound constant water loads (as every Jet should have) Our Impeller is a high draft/Load/Thrust Impeller. The Bowls react the same. We are seeing larger choke sizes being used with the bigger grunt motors of today. Blown Gas say was 3.090 to 3.125- now some are going to 3.187 and have requested 3.200 and 3.250 sizes. Others that want pure tug grunt @ constant have been using 3.250 for several years with "AA", are now getting "AAA" and 3.300 choke size. Last Year we built several 9 1/2" Impellers in "A" & "AA" and stated the Impellers were way to large for them in the Aggressor configuration to handle- maybe so in others but that in one heck of a lot of water to put that much squeeze on. And it was. Tom and a Fuel burner wanted a 9 1/2 "AA" once and I got them to agree on a 9 1/4" "AA" - It hit the fuel boat 1600+ Rs and got cut real quick.
Dave,
I'm curious as to what kind of bowl pressures the guys that are running the bigger impellers with what you call larger 'Choke Sizes' are recording ... By choke sizes I'm assuming that your referring to what others of us call nozzle sizes (?).
Jak

[littlewood]

Pops, you get run off Bad Apples and now you have to come back on this forum with your self invented pump slang double talk. Well it was good while it lasted. Now we are back to the jet pulling us through the water.
Littlewood

[pce680]

Pops, you get run off Bad Apples and now you have to come back on this forum with your self invented pump slang double talk. Well it was good while it lasted. Now we are back to the jet pulling us through the water.
Littlewood
I understand that "slang double talk" and so does my boat.
9 vane aggressor bowl and aggesssor A impeller equals Fastest ever pass by a Comp Jet,134.18 MPH at the 2006 IHBA World Finals. Thanks POPS Ron
PS...And TOMMY reworked the bottom just before we lost Him.

[cyclone]

Just bought some nozzle inserts from Pops. he calls them "chokes". whatever they are they were nicely machined. thanks Dave!

[Rondane]

Pops, you get run off Bad Apples and now you have to come back on this forum with your self invented pump slang double talk. Well it was good while it lasted. Now we are back to the jet pulling us through the water.
Littlewood
What i'd like to know is how this guy isnt getting flamed? Hey littlewood....WHERE IS A PIC OF YOUR BOAT?
If it was me though..... :rolleyes:
Seems like interesting information pops posted though. Has A/T ever posted information like that here anyone know? Would like to read.
Ronn

[Pops@Aggressor]

Pops, you get run off Bad Apples and now you have to come back on this forum with your self invented pump slang double talk. Well it was good while it lasted. Now we are back to the jet pulling us through the water.
LittlewoodjUST OLD FART KIND OF MIND- BUT YOUR JET PUMP REMARK IS WRONG. i THOUGHT MOST WHO HAD A BASIC UNDERSTANDING KNOW IN ORDER FOR A PUMP TO DRAFT IT REQUIRES A SCREW FORWARD EFFECT IN DESIGN. OTHERWISE WE WOULD NEED GUYS LIKE YOU TO SUCK SO IT COULD PRIME ITS SELF.

[Pops@Aggressor]

[QUOTE=cyclone;2439622]Just bought some nozzle inserts from Pops. he calls them "chokes". whatever they are they were nicely machined. thanks Dave![/QUO
NOZZLE INSERT TO ME IS A CHOKE -SAME EFFECT AS SHOT GUN CAUSING DIFF. PRESSURES AND OUTLET SIZES.-BUT ARE YOU NOT CHOKING IT DOWN. TO ME NOZZLE INSERT SAYS NOTHING TO FUNCTION. HAVE YOU RAN ANY YET.

[old rigger]

Pops, you get run off Bad Apples and now you have to come back on this forum with your self invented pump slang double talk. Well it was good while it lasted. Now we are back to the jet pulling us through the water.
Littlewood
Where'd this little peckerwood come from?

[Pops@Aggressor]

Dave,
I'm curious as to what kind of bowl pressures the guys that are running the bigger impellers with what you call larger 'Choke Sizes' are recording ... By choke sizes I'm assuming that your referring to what others of us call nozzle sizes (?).
JakHi Jack- Dan was seeing 520-540 with a 3.125
running very consistent 140s @ 7.6 in IHBA and ran a 7.30s in njba. I will get data this year on the larger sizes. I do know Phil Roshem has gone there with some interesting results. Quicker ET down on the MPH.

[Pops@Aggressor]

jUST OLD FART KIND OF MIND- BUT YOUR JET PUMP REMARK IS WRONG. i THOUGHT MOST WHO HAD A BASIC UNDERSTANDING KNOW IN ORDER FOR A PUMP TO DRAFT IT REQUIRES A SCREW FORWARD EFFECT IN DESIGN. OTHERWISE WE WOULD NEED GUYS LIKE YOU TO SUCK SO IT COULD PRIME ITS SELF.Same Old Guy as 2004 post
nothing good to add -Just Smack

[Pops@Aggressor]

Hi Pops....about time you showed up here again....
And Littlewoody....Fukk off,
Ronjane....quit your cryingHOW'S THE WHITE WATER GOING TO LOOK FOR THIS YEAR!

[Wicked Performance Boats]

" little wood" the name says it all!:D

[Pops@Aggressor]

I understand that "slang double talk" and so does my boat.
9 vane aggressor bowl and aggesssor A impeller eguals Fastest ever pass by a Comp Jet,134.18 MPH at the 2006 IHBA World Finals. Thanks POPS Ron
PS...And TOMMY reworked the bottom just before we lost Him. Tom's being gone has taken a lot of desire out of me and I miss that call every morning asking whats up Pop! -Its What It Is - is just not working right now for me. Not sure if I can deal with Toms Race comming up.
Maybe Guy's with no BS just reach deeper and it takes longer, and he is right "IT IS What It IS"- BOTTOM LINE"
Take Care and say HI- Dave

[Pops@Aggressor]

Should be good. With the Worlds here in Alberta and the $$$$ floating around this Province everyone is expecting a great year. You planning on putting in an appearance at any of the US or Canadian shows?Rod has invited me -and not sure yet.
If so like to meet you.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Nice to see ya again Pops, and thx for the info. I may need it one of these years. Incedentally, I love the Mag-Bronze Agg "B" I got from HTP a year ago, sure worked well in my old Taylor with the slowly growing HP as I upgrade various items. :)
Hang in there Pops, the 2 worst parts of the losses are the extreme smallness of the jetting comunity, which has made it also extremely close-knit. When an old-hand moves on, it is a blow to everyone. :(
One day at a time Pops. :)

[cyclone]

[QUOTE=cyclone;2439622]Just bought some nozzle inserts from Pops. he calls them "chokes". whatever they are they were nicely machined. thanks Dave![/QUO
NOZZLE INSERT TO ME IS A CHOKE -SAME EFFECT AS SHOT GUN CAUSING DIFF. PRESSURES AND OUTLET SIZES.-BUT ARE YOU NOT CHOKING IT DOWN. TO ME NOZZLE INSERT SAYS NOTHING TO FUNCTION. HAVE YOU RAN ANY YET.
Been too busy at work to test anything. I'm racing this weekend at Ming and will look for an opportunity to try those parts then. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I'm hoping for better ET's and not so much more mph.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Where'd this little peckerwood come from?
LMFAO, he said peckerwood or was it woodpecker:D

[SmokinLowriderSS]

What i'd like to know is how this guy isnt getting flamed?
What i'd like to know is why you are still here to get flamed sheet-stain.
Hey littlewood....WHERE IS A PIC OF YOUR BOAT?
Where's a picture of YOURS you lying, boatless, little fukstick?

[Pops@Aggressor]

[QUOTE=Pops@Aggressor;2440354]
Been too busy at work to test anything. I'm racing this weekend at Ming and will look for an opportunity to try those parts then. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I'm hoping for better ET's and not so much more mph. Call me and get my MBL# -Im trying to set up call forward(new system)so i can be available the 310-324-6904 or 888-246-5075 #s. Going to try to be there Sat.
Keep tight #s on set up.

[jetboatperformance]

Seems like interesting information pops posted though. Has A/T ever posted information like that here anyone know? Would like to read.
Ronn
Seems like a valid question that deserves an intelligent answer. I spoke to Ron at American Turbine today regarding various bowl comparisons, flow numbers, what they represented etc. and under what conditions & how these "tests" were actually made. I'm sure he will post information later in response to these questions. I'm also in hopes he will provide some info regarding casting thickness, bowl strength and internal bowl design. -Tom

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Seems like a valid question that deserves an intelligent answer. I spoke to Ron at American Turbine today regarding various bowl comparisons, flow numbers, what they represented etc. and under what conditions & how these "tests" were actually made. I'm sure he will post information later in response to these questions. I'm also in hopes he will provide some info regarding casting thickness, bowl strength and internal bowl design. -Tom
Nice work Tom;) I would like to read some of that info as well;)

[American Turbine Man]

Seems like a valid question that deserves an intelligent answer. I spoke to Ron at American Turbine today regarding various bowl comparisons, flow numbers, what they represented etc. and under what conditions & how these "tests" were actually made. I'm sure he will post information later in response to these questions. I'm also in hopes he will provide some info regarding casting thickness, bowl strength and internal bowl design. -Tom
Tom
Our bowl was designed and tested in ATP’s Haliburton Flow lab. For those that don’t know in the beginning American Turbine Pump Company was our partner. This lab is used to test deep-well turbine pumps for agricultural and industrial pumps. This lab is very accurate, it is temperature and pressure compensated (like a dyno) so when you come back weeks or months later you can create the same test conditions. Our bowl was tested with our impeller actually pumping water. We used a Berkeley JG bowl for our baseline test. The final results were that the Turbine bowl flows three percent (3%) better than a Berkeley. In real world comparisons we have determined that if you have at least an eighty mile per hour (80 MPH) you will gain three miles per hour (3 MPH) with a Turbine bowl. If you don't get favorable results it most likely is low suction pressure (you are running out of water) from the greater flow from the bowl.
Dominator and Turbine bowls have been pressure tested to 600 (psi), that should be good to about 3000 hp. I’m sure the bowls will take more pressure our little Hy-Pro pump would not go higher.
ATM
Dominator High-Helix Stainless Steel Impeller
Panther Energizer Kit

[twowheeledfish]

...results were that the Turbine bowl flows three percent (3%) better than a Berkeley. In real world comparisons we have determined that if you have at least an eighty mile per hour (80 MPH) you will gain three miles per hour (3 MPH) with a Turbine bowl. If you don't get favorable results it most likely is low suction pressure (you are running out of water) from the greater flow from the bowl...
I got an honest 4mph from a berk jc to AT bowl conversion on a 70mph boat. The old berk's vanes were pretty rough looking and had to be impeding flow too, which I believe added to the increase in performance I saw with the swap. Two thumbs up for AT! Can't wait to get the boat on the water and play with the new jet trim I just installed.

[Pops@Aggressor]

Seems like a valid question that deserves an intelligent answer. I spoke to Ron at American Turbine today regarding various bowl comparisons, flow numbers, what they represented etc. and under what conditions & how these "tests" were actually made. I'm sure he will post information later in response to these questions. I'm also in hopes he will provide some info regarding casting thickness, bowl strength and internal bowl design. -Tom
You need to get help to understand- If that don't work for you Call I willl provide you more. Dave

[Pops@Aggressor]

I got an honest 4mph from a berk jc to AT bowl conversion on a 70mph boat. The old berk's vanes were pretty rough looking and had to be impeding flow too, which I believe added to the increase in performance I saw with the swap. Two thumbs up for AT! Can't wait to get the boat on the water and play with the new jet trim I just installed.
Not trying to start a war- I would buy that, A/T did re-design there bowl some time ago. Here is fact on ours.- Blown Gas has been our strongest Class for real base line. with 25-30 Class Boats over the years. Impeller 9-11 MPH -Bowl 4-6+ MPH ET cut combination .3/.5 SEC and better. The 11 vane has ran quicker yet but we have been very limited on producing it. It is a bowl that will suck a pump dry now. One Record boat ran it (1) time and ran his
quickest e.t. of 7.31 but put a hole in a piston the size of a quarter as he did not fatten up the motor on high speed. The impeller digs the entire track demanding for load from the motor. Best run prior 146.+ @ 7.43 His MPH dropped off 4MPH same run.
Frank Nagore called me yesterday- he is doing OK with his leg and picks up a new Al. Block in a week. Franks 1/8 Mile marks have been outstanding but top end has been a motor problem to finish. hope to make IHBA start up with the unit. I hope to have a surprise waiting for him to test @ same time.
11 Vane

[Pops@Aggressor]

Tom
Our bowl was designed and tested in ATP’s Haliburton Flow lab. For those that don’t know in the beginning American Turbine Pump Company was our partner. This lab is used to test deep-well turbine pumps for agricultural and industrial pumps. This lab is very accurate, it is temperature and pressure compensated (like a dyno) so when you come back weeks or months later you can create the same test conditions. Our bowl was tested with our impeller actually pumping water. We used a Berkeley JG bowl for our baseline test. The final results were that the Turbine bowl flows three percent (3%) better than a Berkeley. In real world comparisons we have determined that if you have at least an eighty mile per hour (80 MPH) you will gain three miles per hour (3 MPH) with a Turbine bowl. If you don't get favorable results it most likely is low suction pressure (you are running out of water) from the greater flow from the bowl.
Dominator and Turbine bowls have been pressure tested to 600 (psi), that should be good to about 3000 hp. I’m sure the bowls will take more pressure our little Hy-Pro pump would not go higher.
ATM
Dominator High-Helix Stainless Steel Impeller
Panther Energizer Kit
I have a question here. We also use deep weel testing. The one problem we run into is you have a flow rate based on a electric motor set @ specified HP or RPMs. it gives you -Say on a complete pump X Gallons in and out. Yes you may see a 3% increase in your flow rate and that I believe is functional output. So if your berkeley bowl puts out 4100 GPM you just upped that number to 4223 GPM @ 3% increase. What is the base line utilized to arrive at this number.
I would assume you are using a prime of 4300-4500 Rs.
and are you using internal pressure as a monotoring basis also. What other basis do you utilize to establish the cause of flow increase. I know design is theory untill proven.
I am not trying to bate you -its just that I have had this debate before with some of the test engineers @ Berkeley and find much of the pump industry to be limited to this test analysis. As you know our starting parent company manufactures product for 60-70% of the pump industry Including American Turbine Pump Inc. Little Giant Goulds, Peerless and in deepwell and commercial applications this is all thats needed. A flow rate of X at a pressure of X- that will not blow out city lines.
In the Jet Drive industry HP/RPMs are not limited -Pound Thrust, waterflow control, harmonics all play the major role, so much so that a bowl like our 11 Vane is not practical (Yet) but for a few limited applications. We test for cavatational flow, consistent vane pressure flow and have tested every bowl out there all the way to custom welded blueprinted bowls done by the best. What we found is no one bowl fits all needs. I know you at A/T build for a overall defined mass market and build a sound product. What I wonder is: are you are saying that one fits all. We have seen a 9 vane bowl deliver close to 4900 GPM
perhaps one day we will see what the 11 can do but 11 will not fit the need of the 9 or 7 vane.
I see you have a new S/Steel Hi Helux Impeller
Aggressor were still knocking out the same old Mag. Bronze Impellers for years. We do some 17-4 Mild H/T S/S when I can and have a whole line of Cupped & Dual Ported Impellers "god knows when I will get around to getting them out". It is a interesting business and some times makes you wet your pants when you see that perfect record run and your hand had a little to do with it. Would love to continue to have a open discussion here. Those that know me -know I Love Jets and engineering dreams of someday and it needs to change a lot. it got its a@s handed to it in the 70S and never fought back to its rightful share of the market! Dave (POPs)

[Pirahna]

Sounds like dying "gasps" to me ,What do you think Littlewood ?? Pirahna