Am I Being Cheated?

[ekbearly]

Here's the story...
I began hearing a thumping noise near the back of my engine (496 Mag on 03 Nordic Heat) when I was out in LB Harbor 2 weeks ago. I immediately trailered the boat and took it over to a local shop, Rainbow Marine, in Huntington Beach. The guy said that my Gimbal bearing was jacked up and replaced it and did my basic yearly service for 1k.
When I got the boat back, he told me that I might still hear the thumping noise slightly as that is from normal wear and tear. Prior to this, everything was perfectly smooth and that didn't make sense.
My family took the boat out to test it and after a few minutes the thumping noise that was still present got louder, we heard a bang and the engine would rev but the boat didn't go anywhere.
After getting towed in, we took it back to Rainbow. After inspection, the guy is telling me the whole drive is trashed and that we must have hit something and that he will help us put an insurance claim in.
We have NEVER hit anything. The prop and drive are picture perfect and we haven't ever hit anything. He said that the costs for the repair would be about 13k that he will charge insurance.
Doesn't this seem shady? I think the guy screwed up on his diagnosis and could have fixed a small problem that has now turned into a big problem. Now he wants to peg this on my insurance company by saying that we hit something.
Advice? What are my options? Should I go the legal route?

[707dog]

Your Getting Burned Bro!!

[yopengo]

Bend over and BYO lube...:D

[Jyruiz]

Cheated: Yes
Advice: None
Sorry to hear about that bro, hope things get squared away.

[Magic34]

$13k is very excessive. He wants to use your insurance so he can double the price. It should be around a $5k fix.
Contact Max Machine Works in Havasu and ask what it would cost to repair a broken Bravo drive with their upgraded components.
Also, maybe he didn't do anything to the drive to begin with. I dont know how a gimble would be the issue, but it sounds like you may have been overcharged by $500 if he didn't do anything other than the normal motor and drive service.
If it is the lower part of the drive, the repair is simple. If it is the upper part, it is more difficult and resluts in much more labor. The lower drive can be replaced in under 2 hours of labor.

[ratso]

Hard to say, but IF the gimbal bearing was bad, he still apparently missed the big problem. If you didn't hit anything, I'd like to know what actually did cause it to grenade. Guy sounds a little flaky to me, especially trying to nail insurance for it. As far as something still knocking when it went out... bullshit, that ain't right. http://***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif

[shippingguy]

One thing I can say is that it is not $13k to fix that drive!!!! I would not trust that guy touching my boat.:mad:

[DaddyMack]

So many different ways you can go.
First get him to put everything he is telling you in writing. That way later he can't claim he never told you......
Then, get a second opinion (don't let him know you are going to do this). Not necessarily for insurance purposes, but for lawsuit purposes and to check to see if what he is doing now is even right.
After you have it in writing, explain to the guy, you can go about this one of several ways, lawsuit, turn it over to insurance for their investigation or he can fix it correctly for what you already paid.
second...
Contact your insurance company and let them know you believe the guy is attempting to commit insurance fraud. You may want to talk to their investigation division and alert them and let them nail the guy sereptitiously. (of course your drive may not be fixed).
or third...
get it all in writing, let him fix it without the insurance pay for it and then sue him. Or take somewhere else for half the price and then sue him for that. Chances are that you wouldn't have as bad a problem if he fixed it correctly the first time.
I wouldn't be party to the insurance submission, if it is false, because you could go down with him if they find out.

[Outnumbered]

Insurance scam. He wants the insurance to pay for the big repair.

[Deano]

If he knows drives, he was fully aware that you were about to grenade. Drives don't "thump" after they get worked on. Thats why you brought it there in the first place.
He is a damn crook and probably contributing to everyones insurance rates going up. 13K will get you new everything and then some.
Did he tell you what part of the drive needs to be replaced? Or just the whole thing?

[phebus]

Sounds like a broken gear in the upper. Misdiagnosed to start with, and now overpriced to repair.

[Havasu Hangin']

Sounds like the u-joint (or coupler) to me.

[DMOORE]

Find a new repair shop.
Darrell.

[h2oski2fast]

Sounds like he is trying to scam the Ins company. Take it someplace reputable. Wilkes Marine in Santa Ana, (714) 540-8908, does alot of insurance work, and is well known with the ins companies.

[Mr. Crusader 83]

Trade me for my boat straight across. I will fix yours and keep it, I promiss I wont sell it. I think you might be taking advantage of me though. But im willing to help you out in your time of need and anger. :D

[BADBLOWN572]

Sounds like the u-joint (or coupler) to me.
Me too. 90% of the time, if the drive is clanking, it has to deal with u-joint/drive shaft alignment or engine coupler. If it is something else in the drive, they will usually either whistle or hum. An easy way to tell if it is the drive coupler is to fire off the boat and look at the back of the motor. If the drive shaft is spinning, it is not the coupler. If it is the coupler, it is an easy fix.
$13K is WAY over priced for a drive. You can buy new XR drives off of Offshoreonly.com for between $6K-7K. That is a whole new drive with new casings, shafts, bearings etc... They ship them to you in a sealed box from Mercury Marine. 1-2 hours of labor to change it (and that is if they suck). I can put a drive on in about 15 minutes. (3 min to pull one off the back of your boat). ;) :D
I have blown 4-5 B-Max outdrives and the most expensive repair that I ever had was 2,200 and that is because I took out the top gear and the metal shavings went down and wiped out every bearing in the drive.
Sorry to tell you, but I think you got hosed from the beginning and he is trying to bend you over harder.
If I was you, I would first check the coupler. If that is ok, I would then pull the outdrive, check out the U-joints and then send it to either Quality Performance Marine or to a guy named Chad Bixby. They are both straight shooters and will tell you right away what went wrong with your drive. It doesn't sound like the gimbal to me, but I could be wrong.
Sorry to hear about your luck, but I believe if you go somewhere else, your luck will turn around. :)

[ekbearly]

Thank you all for the quick replies. You have all validated my initial thoughts and that helps a great deal.
DaddyMack... I especially thank you as you have outlined a very well thought-out action plan. I will update everyone on how this progresses. Stay away from Rainbow Marine!
Eric

[RiverDave]

Your out a grand, obviously you shouldn't take the boat back to the guy. Take it over to Wilkes marine and have them figure out what tanked on the drive. As well have them examine the water pump impeller etc.. to see if he even serviced the boat.
If he didn't service it (or service it correctly for that matter) I think you should call him and ask for your $$ back. Either all of it, or less parts depending on what was done.
If you were just idling when it tanked I seriously doubt your going to need a whole new drive, and as stated above for 13K your replacing pretty much everythin on the back of the boat including the gimble, and those aren't exactly the cheapest prices around.
If the guy gives you any shit about giving you your cash back I'd tell him that your considering reporting all of this to the local DA's office with regards to his insurance scamming practices. Insurance fraud is 7 years I think.
Either way, getting the quote up front like someone else suggested is a good idea, but ultimately if it were me I'd take the boat to Wilkes marine if I was in the position you are in now.
RD

[RiverToysJas]

IMO, if they tell you they fixed something, but also tell you it's still doing the same things it was doing.....they didn't fix it, they charged you for nothing. I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like. Then the problem got worse on the next trip...... Did you request the bad bearing on the first repair?
I request all my old parts on all repairs! I think it's the law here in CA, they have to give them to you if you request them.
Good Luck!
RTJas

[phebus]

I broke a couple of teeth off the upper gear set in my Bravo drive. It would clunk everytime the broken gear came around...........until it just let loose, and that was the end of the day.:mad:

[ekbearly]

I did not request the parts... lesson learned. I just called Rainbow and found out that they did not replace the impeller as part of the annual service. I paid $500 for the service alone and $500 for the gimbal replacement. All of my others annual services have included replacing the impeller.
This guy is jacked up. I hope tomorrow goes better. I will definitely go to Wilkes for a second opinion and to have the repair done.
Eric

[DaddyMack]

Thank you all for the quick replies. You have all validated my initial thoughts and that helps a great deal.
DaddyMack... I especially thank you as you have outlined a very well thought-out action plan. I will update everyone on how this progresses. Stay away from Rainbow Marine!
Eric
Anytime.. that will be my usual fee... lol
see ya on the lake... don't forget the crown and beer...lol

[Baja Big Dog]

I know the knowledge pool on this forum is fantastic, however I see one major problem...what do you think the chances are that this guy has at least one buddy that saw that you mentioned the shop's name!!!
Ill bet you wont get anything in writing now.
Hopefully you paid for the first "repairs" with a credit card, and if so I know that you have already called them start a claim against the charges..right????

[BADBLOWN572]

I did not request the parts... lesson learned. I just called Rainbow and found out that they did not replace the impeller as part of the annual service. I paid $500 for the service alone and $500 for the gimbal replacement. All of my others annual services have included replacing the impeller.
This guy is jacked up. I hope tomorrow goes better. I will definitely go to Wilkes for a second opinion and to have the repair done.
Eric
So he basically charged you $500.00 for an oil change? I need to get into his business!!! Just without the lack of ethics. ;) His profit margins are about the best in the buisness. ;) :D

[seanv]

im thinking your getting ripped. pull the drive and check the coupler. im with hh in thinkin this is your best starting point.

[Deano]

So he basically charged you $500.00 for an oil change? I need to get into his business!!! Just without the lack of ethics. ;) His profit margins are about the best in the buisness. ;) :D
1,000.00 for an oil change. He probably didn't do shit to the drive either.

[sleekcraft137]

Insurance scam. He wants the insurance to pay for the big repair.Ditto that......Sounds like a scam to me.:idea:

[ekbearly]

He says that my prop shaft is twisted and that proves that we hit something. Anyone know other causes for this?

[Biglue]

Check your PM's.

[topless]

Check your PM's.What? You have top secret information on what caused this that you can't share with the rest of us?

[Biglue]

What? You have top secret information on what caused this that you can't share with the rest of us?
Yep. :D

[sdpm]

Another poor boat shop (getting trashed) just trying to make a living! Just a bunch of haters!

[Biglue]

Another poor boat shop (getting trashed) just trying to make a living! Just a bunch of haters!
So $1000 to mis diagnose a problem and oil change is reasonable in your opinion? Tell you what, PM me when you want to service your boat. Shit, I'll hook you up.

[BADBLOWN572]

He says that my prop shaft is twisted and that proves that we hit something. Anyone know other causes for this?
There are a couple of reasons for this to happen, but if it was from impact, it would be evident. Your prop would have been toast and your lower unit definitely damaged. Since the shaft is completely covered, it would have to transfer the shock from some place. The only thing spinning is the prop. You would definitely be able to see an impact hard enough to spin the prop shaft. They don't twist easily. It takes a sudden stop / or a large load to twist the shaft!
Another way that a prop shaft twists is when you fly the boat and do not get off the throttle. The prop will come down and bite into the water and cause the shaft to twist somewhat.

[phebus]

He says that my prop shaft is twisted and that proves that we hit something. Anyone know other causes for this?
Re-entry with the water after getting some air over a wake. The same thing that could break an upper gear set.

[sdpm]

So $1000 to mis diagnose a problem and oil change is reasonable in your opinion? Tell you what, PM me when you want to service your boat. Shit, I'll hook you up.
If you had seen the things and heard the stories that I have in the last 18 years with stuff like this you would understand and know where I am comming from. Nothing amazes me anymore!
I was being sarcastic.

[RiverToysJas]

He says that my prop shaft is twisted and that proves that we hit something. Anyone know other causes for this?
Prop hub would HAVE TO be thrashed too. Running a MAG, you are probably running a rubber hub kit. IF you are, they are designed to give way and spin the prop free before the shaft is damaged. IF you are running a solid hub kit, I'm not sure what kind of damage it would show, but I'm sure it'd show something if you've stopped the prop fast enough to twist the shaft.
RTJas

[Biglue]

If you had seen the things and heard the stories that I have in the last 18 years with stuff like this you would understand and know where I am comming from. Nothing amazes me anymore!
I was being sarcastic.
Gotcha. So was I.
I'm sure there is people that couldn't describe the cause to any malfunctions they may be experiencing, but man at a grand to only have it fail even further is a little steep. Then the $13K to replace the drive. Even the newest of boat owners would know something is way wrong.

[sdpm]

Again Lue, you would be amazed how nieve(sp) or unaware most boat owners truly are. I hear and see this kind of crap all the time. I get calls from insurance companys and marine surveyors quite often for a second opinion. It is amazing how many "plastic bags" are floating around out there that just happen to get wrapped around outdrives and kill powerheads and engines!!:eek:
Kind of like a women taking their car to the dealer for tire rotation because she recieved a notice from them and when they get there the service writer tells her that she needs a lube job, oil change, brakes checked, diff. lube changed, wipers replaced, p/s fluid changed, antifreeze changed, and the fuel injection system serviced! The women say's to writer " if you say it needs it then O.K. I guess". Go's to pick up her 2005 Toyota Camry with 13,200 mi on it and gets handed a bill for $963.40. This is our neighbor and when I found out about it needless to say she got most of her money back.

[BadKachina]

Couple of things I've seen. First is that the gimbal bearing rarely needs replaced unless the belows have been leaking water. Leaky bellows will destroy a gimbal bearing. Did he change your drive shaft bellows or suggest that they should be changed? For 500 I would expect that he did your bellows and gimbal and maybe a couple of other small things.
Second when the gimbal bearing goes bad, it usually makes a whiney/ginding sound that gets worse when you trim it at any postion other than completely nuetral (negative or positive trim).
A clunking sound is usually from the drive, the u-joints or the coupler. It's possible that your drive was bad but if he had just serviced it, and it was making noise, I would expect to have excess amounts of metal in the oil, or oil contaminated with water. I'm saying usually on all of this because there's always that one case that doesn't make sense. Usually all three things are bad at once, the bellows will take on water, the gimbal will go out, and the drive shaft seal will leak. The drive shaft seal is designed to hold oil in, not water out so your drive will take on water at the same time.
If your coupler is bad usually you will see black rubber chunks in your bilge, under motor. This would be my first suspect on your boat. I've seen it before on 496's and 6.2's. You will have to pull the motor to change it, but I usually make it as easy as possible by lifitng the motor with the hoist, changing the coupler and putting it right back in. The actual removing of the motor is pretty quick, it's the de-rigging and re-rigging that takes the most time.
As far as 13k for a new drive, WOW.............That's grossly over priced IMO. I could put a brand new B-Max on your boat for under 13k.................
1k for an annual service and a gimbal bearing is almost double what you should have been charged.

[AZJD]

Just a suggestion! Take a good look at your drive and make sure it's yours....... This clown sounds super shady and I wouldn't put it past him to rip your drive off and stick you with a broken one!
Also be sure to file a complaint with BBB! We don't need guys like this working on anyone elses boat. A good friend of mine and someone on the boards recently got taken by BAKER MARINE in Long Beach for a bunch of work that was crap......whooops did that slip out!

[ekbearly]

It looks like we're going to court. We were told by a California WatchDog agency to go to the local DA's office so we are going through that process now.
The guy at Rainbows final offer was that he would give us the new drive at cost - $6,000 - and that he would not make a profit on it. Not that it needs to be said, but I was a bit underwhelmed by his generosity. He claims no responsibility for what happened.

[Deano]

The guy is full of it. 6K and he is still making a profit. You don't need a whole new drive anyways. Worst case is the lower and those can be had for a third of that, if it is just the prop shaft. Take the boat to Wilkes.

[ratso]

It looks like we're going to court. We were told by a California WatchDog agency to go to the local DA's office so we are going through that process now.
The guy at Rainbows final offer was that he would give us the new drive at cost - $6,000 - and that he would not make a profit on it. Not that it needs to be said, but I was a bit underwhelmed by his generosity. He claims no responsibility for what happened.
You might want to get your ducks in a row before going down that path, such as having another dealership or Tech look at it. Sounds like the guy is a crook, but on the other hand boats do break. It would be nice to know what actually caused the failure. My 27 foot Chris Craft had only 200 hours on it, front main bearing shelled and ruined the block. It shouldn't have happened with that low of a time on it, but it did.;)

[Magic34]

Brand new, sportmaster lower XR drive
http://www.offshoreonlyclassifieds.com/brand_new_xr_w_race_lower-o14252-en.html