Legal Eagles

[BoatFloating]

Anyone know anything about CC&R laws. Here is a section tell me what you think.
Recreational vehicles, boats, motor homes, trailers, commercial vehicles, or any other special vehicles can be placed or maintained within an enclosed area of the lot, or obscured from view of adjoining streets, common area and residences by a solid wall or fence or appropriate screen that has been approved in accordance with the procedures set forth in article 7 of this declaration regarding architectural control. Unless parked in enclosed areas or obscured from view as set forth herein, these recreational vehicles, boats, motor homes, trailers, commercial vehicles, or any other special vehicles are not permitted to be parked in any other area of the development at any time.
Now I'm no lawyer but I did say at a Holiday Inn last night. If I'm reading it right I can park my 24' toy trailer as long as it's in the enclosed area of my side yard. The board told me that it also can't be seen too. I read it enclosed or obscured from view. It doesn't say and.
Am I reading this correctly? HOA are good but boy can they be a big pain in the ass.

[riverbound]

Looks like an OR to me :) but make sure no one can see it, thats where they will get you.

[Kilrtoy]

if it can be see from the common area, STREET, you need to cover it ...
I would have to agree with the HOA on this one

[BoatFloating]

Then it should say and or not just or. It's about 5% visible if you stop in front of my house and look stare.....

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Anyone know anything about CC&R laws. Here is a section tell me what you think.
Now I'm no lawyer but I did say at a Holiday Inn last night. If I'm reading it right I can park my 24' toy trailer as long as it's in the enclosed area of my side yard. The board told me that it also can't be seen too. I read it enclosed or obscured from view. It doesn't say and.
Am I reading this correctly? HOA are good but boy can they be a big pain in the ass.
I read enclosed as meaning in a garage or something similar. I believe you interpreting enclosed as meaning an object surrounded by 4 sides, instead of all sides.
John M

[Kilrtoy]

Then it should say and or not just or. It's about 5% visible if you stop in front of my house and look stare.....
Let me guess, your board is made of mostly old retired , semi retired or about to retire people. They stick to the letter of the CC&R's(as THEY see fit). They fine people for the smallest things.
Recommendation
call the management company ask them who their legal council is.
Fax/email them a pic and a copy of the section and let them give you a decision. That is the best way to handle this

[andy01]

HOA are good but boy can they be a big pain in the ass.
So are you but your HOA probably isn't posting on www.painintheassneighborhoodrunnerdowner.com about you!
How close are you to French Vally airport?
Andy

[BoatFloating]

I read enclosed as meaning in a garage or something similar. I believe you interpreting enclosed as meaning an object surrounded by 4 sides, instead of all sides.
John M
From the dictionary....
en·close
1. to shut or hem in; close in on all sides: a valley enclosed by tall mountains.
2. to surround, as with a fence or wall: to enclose land.
A good lawyer I think would eat them up in court. Seems like it can be taken a couple different ways????

[BoatFloating]

So are you but your HOA probably isn't posting on www.painintheassneighborhoodrunnerdowner.com about you!
How close are you to French Vally airport?
Andy
Was that link supposed to work????
Like right down the street about 1o min away????

[Jesster]

Obscure
1 : to make dark, dim, or indistinct
2 : to conceal or hide by or as if by covering
It will probably come down to this and it seems to me that if only about 5% can be seen that is pretty obscured. Tough call though. HOA will usually fall on the side of NO!! though. ;)

[BoatFloating]

Obscure
1 : to make dark, dim, or indistinct
2 : to conceal or hide by or as if by covering
It will probably come down to this and it seems to me that if only about 5% can be seen that is pretty obscured. Tough call though. HOA will usually fall on the side of NO!! though. ;)
The funny thing is only 10% of the community has the ability to have RV storage and it seems some people are upset. I went to a meeting to discuss this and I had the board pres tell me he's concerned about the values of the homes. I told him he should check with an appraiser as RV parking adds values to homes not take away.... Dumb ass....

[andy01]

Was that link supposed to work????
Like right down the street about 1o min away????
No the link isn't suppose to work....... jackass......
I was there twice this last week for lunch one day and dinner on Saturday night. I heard you lived close and thought about calling you. Next time I go out there I will give ya call.
Andy

[BoatFloating]

No the link isn't suppose to work....... jackass......
I was there twice this last week for lunch one day and dinner on Saturday night. I heard you lived close and thought about calling you. Next time I go out there I will give ya call.
Andy
Give me a call.... I met 3DO there one time....

[BadKachina]

You'll probably loose if they can see it from the street.

[C-2]

by a solid wall or fence or appropriate screen that has been approved in accordance with the procedures set forth in article 7 of this declaration regarding architectural control.
That condition too, no?
Isn't DaddyMack the go-to man on this?
I would also check to see if they have the ability change/modify their CC& R's on an inpromptu basis. That's how a lot of cities go after strip clubs, bars and other businesses they deem undesireable. The business lawyers find a loophole, then the city promptly changes the codes to close the loophole.
And make sure even if you prevail with the above, they don't have any other catch-all nuisance or abatement provisions for anything they deem unappealing, irrespective of code compliance.
There are also lawfirms which specialize in HOA law. I know of a couple, and they are usually pretty sharp.
Good luck on it :)

[BoatFloating]

You'll probably loose if they can see it from the street.
So you read OR as meaning both enclosed and not visible? Funny there is about a dozen boats that you can see biminis or wake towers but yet they don't get hassled????

[Kilrtoy]

See if I ever help you again, back to your pissing contest with ANDY

[YeLLowBoaT]

Recreational vehicles, boats, motor homes, trailers, commercial vehicles, or any other special vehicles can be placed or maintained within an enclosed area of the lot, or obscured from view of adjoining streets, common area and residences by a solid wall or fence or appropriate screen that has been approved in accordance with the procedures set forth in article 7 of this declaration regarding architectural control. Unless parked in enclosed areas or obscured from view as set forth herein, these recreational vehicles, boats, motor homes, trailers, commercial vehicles, or any other special vehicles are not permitted to be parked in any other area of the development at any time.
The way I'm reading it. If its behind a fence that meets with approval of the HOA, your fine. Your going to have read article 7 to find out what is ok and how you get approved for it.
unless other wise addressed in the bylaws... Enclosed DOES NOT mean you need a 4 wall and a roof. it just means 4 walls.
I've played this game before as a contractor dealing with HOAs... I always drive around and take lots of pics the other houses in the the area.( had a issue with a fence I built) Long story short not only did every other corner fence break the( inculding the presdent of the HOA...) break the HOA ruls, it also broke local code... he backed off as soon as I had the county come out and make him tear it down. :D he was pissed.

[BOBALOO]

So you read OR as meaning both enclosed and not visible? Funny there is about a dozen boats that you can see biminis or wake towers but yet they don't get hassled????
They are trying to keep a Mexitalian down:D
sorry but someone had to say it

[BadKachina]

So you read OR as meaning both enclosed and not visible? Funny there is about a dozen boats that you can see biminis or wake towers but yet they don't get hassled????
No, it actually reads in your enclosed "yard" or obscured for view, but I've had a couple of runnins with my HOA and I it never comes out in my favor.
The last letter I got was for parking my truck behind the fence.
The CC&R's state that you can't have a motorhome, RV or non-working vehicle with-in view of the neighboring property. My truck has a 10" lift with 40" tires, so you can see it over my six foot fence. It's not a vehicle under repair, or an rv or a motorhome. I just don't drive it during the week and since I have an "rv" gate I thought I would put it out of the way in the back yard. I guess they would rather see the fukker sitting in my driveway instead of seeing about a foot of it sticking over my fence........:rolleyes:

[BoatFloating]

See if I ever help you again, back to your pissing contest with ANDY
You had good advice and thanks.... now you piss on Andy he likes it...

[Kilrtoy]

You had good advice and thanks.... now you piss on Andy he likes it...
Unless he had a sex change , no glolden showers from me

[BoatFloating]

No, it actually reads in your enclosed "yard" or obscured for view, but I've had a couple of runnins with my HOA and I it never comes out in my favor.
The last letter I got was for parking my truck behind the fence.
The CC&R's state that you can't have a motorhome, RV or non-working vehicle with-in view of the neighboring property. My truck has a 10" lift with 40" tires, so you can see it over my six foot fence. It's not a vehicle under repair, or an rv or a motorhome. I just don't drive it during the week and since I have an "rv" gate I thought I would put it out of the way in the back yard. I guess they would rather see the fukker sitting in my driveway instead of seeing about a foot of it sticking over my fence........:rolleyes:
Your CCR's are more specfic....

[Kilrtoy]

I hope this helps you a little more rocko
In condominium living, one area of much confusion and dispute revolves around the concept of exclusive use common area. What is it, who controls it, and who takes care of it are often bones of contention between residents and their association. Many disputes can be avoided by making sure that the owner, the board and the manager understand exclusive use.
When owning a condominium, each member owns a separate interest called a "unit" and shares with all members the ownership in everything that is not units. The "everything else" is called "Common Area." Exclusive Use Common Area is a subset of the Common Area. There are many parts of a condominium building which are outside of the boundaries of the units, but clearly are designed for the use and enjoyment of only one unit. These parts are called "Exclusive Use Common Area."
Exclusive use common area may be defined in three separate places:
The Condominium Plan or subdivision Map may define some exclusive use common area items, such as patios, balconies or sometimes parking spaces.
The Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions ("CC&Rs") recorded on the project may also contain a definition of exclusive use common areas.
Lastly, the Davis-Stirling Act, at Civil Code Section 1351(i), contains the default definition, if the governing documents do not fully cover the topic. Under this statute, unless the governing documents state otherwise, exclusive use common area includes:
"Shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, exterior doors, doorframes, and hardware incident thereto, screens and windows or other fixtures designed to serve a single separate interest, but located outside the boundaries of the separate interest."
Fixtures serving a single unit but existing outside of the boundaries of the unit may include plumbing pipes, water heaters, or air conditioning equipment, for example.
Even though the exclusive use common area is for the exclusive use of one owner, it is not exclusively controlled by that owner —the homeowners association still has the ability to control how that area is used. An association may have rules about what may be stored on a patio or balcony, for example. All too often, members are not told that exclusive use is not exclusive control, and a misunderstanding on that subject may result in conflict between neighbors or between a member and the association. Boards would do well to remind members of this fact prior to considering discipline against non-compliant members. Perhaps many of the non-compliant members simply do not understand that their right to use their patio, for example, is not unlimited.
Who maintains exclusive use common area? Who repairs it? Is the broken window or the leaky water heater an association concern or not? This is one of the most frequent topics requiring the expense of attorney opinion letters. First, the lawyer determines whether the area in question is or is not exclusive use common area. The next question is who maintains it and who repairs it, and this can vary significantly from association to association. This topic often is covered in the association governing documents.
However, if the CC&Rs do not clarify the issue, we again turn to the Davis-Stirling Act to fill in the missing pieces. Civil Code Section 1364 says that the association repairs, replaces and maintains common area other than exclusive use common areas, unless the governing documents state otherwise. One would assume then that members are to repair, replace and maintain their respective exclusive use common areas. However, to exclusive use common areas, the section only says that the member is responsible to maintain it. So who repairs and replaces exclusive use common areas? Most legal practitioners resolve this hole in the statute in favor of the member, and opine that the association is required to repair and replace exclusive use common area items, unless the governing documents state otherwise. To fill this hole, many associations amend their governing documents to clarify this issue.
A board of directors may still need an attorney opinion letter to help resolve disputes or questions in this area. But many basic questions can be answered by following the analysis in this column.
Kelly G. Richardson is the Senior Partner of Richardson & Harman, LLP in Pasadena,a full-service law firm specializing in common interest development law. Kelly is also a member of this chapter's board of directors and a past chapter president.

[BoatFloating]

I hope this helps you a little more rocko
In condominium living, one area of much confusion and dispute revolves around the concept of exclusive use common area. What is it, who controls it, and who takes care of it are often bones of contention between residents and their association. Many disputes can be avoided by making sure that the owner, the board and the manager understand exclusive use.
When owning a condominium, each member owns a separate interest called a "unit" and shares with all members the ownership in everything that is not units. The "everything else" is called "Common Area." Exclusive Use Common Area is a subset of the Common Area. There are many parts of a condominium building which are outside of the boundaries of the units, but clearly are designed for the use and enjoyment of only one unit. These parts are called "Exclusive Use Common Area."
Exclusive use common area may be defined in three separate places:
The Condominium Plan or subdivision Map may define some exclusive use common area items, such as patios, balconies or sometimes parking spaces.
The Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions ("CC&Rs") recorded on the project may also contain a definition of exclusive use common areas.
Lastly, the Davis-Stirling Act, at Civil Code Section 1351(i), contains the default definition, if the governing documents do not fully cover the topic. Under this statute, unless the governing documents state otherwise, exclusive use common area includes:
"Shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, exterior doors, doorframes, and hardware incident thereto, screens and windows or other fixtures designed to serve a single separate interest, but located outside the boundaries of the separate interest."
Fixtures serving a single unit but existing outside of the boundaries of the unit may include plumbing pipes, water heaters, or air conditioning equipment, for example.
Even though the exclusive use common area is for the exclusive use of one owner, it is not exclusively controlled by that owner —the homeowners association still has the ability to control how that area is used. An association may have rules about what may be stored on a patio or balcony, for example. All too often, members are not told that exclusive use is not exclusive control, and a misunderstanding on that subject may result in conflict between neighbors or between a member and the association. Boards would do well to remind members of this fact prior to considering discipline against non-compliant members. Perhaps many of the non-compliant members simply do not understand that their right to use their patio, for example, is not unlimited.
Who maintains exclusive use common area? Who repairs it? Is the broken window or the leaky water heater an association concern or not? This is one of the most frequent topics requiring the expense of attorney opinion letters. First, the lawyer determines whether the area in question is or is not exclusive use common area. The next question is who maintains it and who repairs it, and this can vary significantly from association to association. This topic often is covered in the association governing documents.
However, if the CC&Rs do not clarify the issue, we again turn to the Davis-Stirling Act to fill in the missing pieces. Civil Code Section 1364 says that the association repairs, replaces and maintains common area other than exclusive use common areas, unless the governing documents state otherwise. One would assume then that members are to repair, replace and maintain their respective exclusive use common areas. However, to exclusive use common areas, the section only says that the member is responsible to maintain it. So who repairs and replaces exclusive use common areas? Most legal practitioners resolve this hole in the statute in favor of the member, and opine that the association is required to repair and replace exclusive use common area items, unless the governing documents state otherwise. To fill this hole, many associations amend their governing documents to clarify this issue.
A board of directors may still need an attorney opinion letter to help resolve disputes or questions in this area. But many basic questions can be answered by following the analysis in this column.
Kelly G. Richardson is the Senior Partner of Richardson & Harman, LLP in Pasadena,a full-service law firm specializing in common interest development law. Kelly is also a member of this chapter's board of directors and a past chapter president.
Since I don't own a condo what area should I read....

[YeLLowBoaT]

you may want to read artical 7 of your CCRs since that will tell you what can be built and the process needed to do it.

[257]

MOVE!!!!!
lol hell i never win when it comes to HOA its like the government

[BoatFloating]

MOVE!!!!!
lol hell i never win when it comes to HOA its like the government
F that.....
Artcile 7 says if you build some sort of screen it needs to be approved by commitee...

[Kilrtoy]

It applies to your house even though it is not a condo, theywere established for condo's , but housing tracks have adopted these rules and implemented them and you agreed to them when you signed the dotted line, so just read it again.

[DaddyMack]

Anyone know anything about CC&R laws. Here is a section tell me what you think.
Now I'm no lawyer but I did say at a Holiday Inn last night. If I'm reading it right I can park my 24' toy trailer as long as it's in the enclosed area of my side yard. The board told me that it also can't be seen too. I read it enclosed or obscured from view. It doesn't say and.
Am I reading this correctly? HOA are good but boy can they be a big pain in the ass.
Yea... you are kind of screwed no matter how you look at it (money and time). It sucks.
besides being a real estate attorney... I was president of my former (ex now has house..lol) association 557 homes.. just so this crap didn't occur.
Here is the deal.. they probably meant not just obscured.. like trees but enclosed meaning fenced and if fenced.. not visibile meaning obscured...
lmao... Poorly written crap.. really... anyways... usually they want you in an RV area beside your house with a gate that is screened. If it was fully enclosed (four sides without gate) how do you get the thing back there?? lol
realty has to fit in here. Now here is the sucky part... the association can usually determine what they believe to be adequatly or reasonably screened.. and can certainly make decisions until they are challenged. If you don't like what the board is deciding.. run for the board... that's the usual scenario unfortunately... people get a little power and become unreasonable.. hate associations.. even though I have done CCR work, including drafting them over the years...they get out of hand.. and yes lose the reason for their existance, that is to preserve property values, not create an orwellian society...
SO, submit your plans.. if they are denied ask for a rehearing.. or whatever you can do within the HOA. If you exhaust those remedies.. see an attorney and get advice from them after they read ALL of the CCRs. You might be able to file a lawsuit to force them to follow what the CCRS do say, OR get the entire section stricken because it is ambiguous. The HOA may not want to spend the money to fight.... so you might win on that alone.. also look at what they have allowed. this is important because if they have let others get away with what you want to do.. you get to too.
Good luck!

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Yea... you are kind of screwed no matter how you look at it (money and time). It sucks.
besides being a real estate attorney... I was president of my former (ex now has house..lol) association 557 homes.. just so this crap didn't occur.
Here is the deal.. they probably meant not just obscured.. like trees but enclosed meaning fenced and if fenced.. not visibile meaning obscured...
lmao... Poorly written crap.. really... anyways... usually they want you in an RV area beside your house with a gate that is screened. If it was fully enclosed (four sides without gate) how do you get the thing back there?? lol
realty has to fit in here. Now here is the sucky part... the association can usually determine what they believe to be adequatly or reasonably screened.. and can certainly make decisions until they are challenged. If you don't like what the board is deciding.. run for the board... that's the usual scenario unfortunately... people get a little power and become unreasonable.. hate associations.. even though I have done CCR work, including drafting them over the years...they get out of hand.. and yes lose the reason for their existance, that is to preserve property values, not create an orwellian society...
SO, submit your plans.. if they are denied ask for a rehearing.. or whatever you can do within the HOA. If you exhaust those remedies.. see an attorney and get advice from them after they read ALL of the CCRs. You might be able to file a lawsuit to force them to follow what the CCRS do say, OR get the entire section stricken because it is ambiguous. The HOA may not want to spend the money to fight.... so you might win on that alone.. also look at what they have allowed. this is important because if they have let others get away with what you want to do.. you get to too.
Good luck!
Very sound advice
JM