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jrork
04-01-2007, 07:30 AM
Hi,
I'm in the process of capping my boat. In the pictures below you can see that the seam fit was very good to begin with from the factory. What I've done now is ground down into the seam most of the way through and layed it back on an approx. 45 degree angle. I've since ground up and down and am thinking I'm ready to begin to apply some glass and resin. My question is if any of you have any opinions of West Systems Epoxy resin. I was thinking this might be a nice use and with some 403 or 404 MicroFibers added to the resin.
Is there any draw backs with going with the epoxy versus the more conventional resins? I'm planning on painting the boat with a basecoat/clearcoat paint.
Thanks a bunch........John
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/jrork/IMG_6935.jpg

bwillieb
04-01-2007, 10:30 AM
......West Systems Epoxy.....has much better adhesive qualitys than polyster resins..........the only drawback to using West, is that you cannot put polyester resin over it (as in future repairs) in other words epoxy sticks to polyester but polyester will not bond to epoxy......urathane/enamel basecoat clearcoat is compatable with West...........as far as fillers, I do not recall what 403 and 404 are........for strength in the groove use collodial silica #4??,use microspheres #4?? where you will be sanding and for minor pin holes only you can get away with a single component acrylic putty...........you are then ready to prime.............excellent product but more costly than polyester.........

jrork
04-01-2007, 12:04 PM
Thanks bwillie,
Let's see if I post what they say for the fillers
Bonding Hardware—Increased fastener interface and hardware load capability—maximum strength
404 High-density
General Bonding–Join parts with epoxy thickened to create a structural gap filler—strength/gap filling
404 High-density, 406 Colloidal Silica
Bonding with Fillets–Increase joint bonding area and create a structural brace between parts—smoothness/strength
406 Colloidal Silica
Laminating–Bond layers of wood strips, veneers, planks, sheets and cores—gap filling/strength
403 Microfibers

curtis73
04-01-2007, 12:18 PM
[thread hacking]
forgive me, but could someone define "capping" a boat? I'm learning
[/thread hacking]
I will say that I just got done using a bunch of West Systems 105/205 resin and hardener and it was top quality stuff. Even and predictable cure times, no gloppy gelling, incredible stuff. I had always done crappy patch jobs with a can of bondo polyester resin from Home Depot and its like comparing Sikkens Pro products paints to finger paint. West Systems is good stuff.
I did some laminating and filling with the 403 filler which is a cotton fiber stuff. Mixed up it looks like grits. Probably not the best for fairing underneath paint.

widowmaker
04-01-2007, 01:38 PM
Love it. I've used it several times They make it so easy to get the correct mixtures. Just buy there pump set up and your done. Simple and very strong!!!

jrork
04-01-2007, 01:38 PM
Capping is when you remove the rub rail and perminately bond the top of the boat to hull. Extra work but personally I think it looks really clean and is worth the work.
Thanks for the reply on the West system stuff. I've heard nothing but good as well.

DUCKY
04-01-2007, 04:37 PM
I would strongly suggest using an actual reinforcement product rather than just thickening the resin. At the very least, buy some of the West System brand fiberglass mat (no polyester binder to break down) and put some thin strips of it into the seam to mechanically bond the hull and deck together. I would use your mix of filler first, then grind a small trough in it and put the mat in there. That should prevent the cap from cracking in the future.

jrork
04-01-2007, 04:46 PM
Whoops, sorry Ducky, I probably wasn't clear. I'm planning on using some glass tape and bedding it in there overlapping it a bit and then trimming the excess off and going over it again with additional layers of glass until I've built it back up. I was just wondering if anybody recommended the West system with filler to hold and thicken the resin in between the glass applications. Also curious if the Epoxy will come back and bite me at paint time.

DUCKY
04-02-2007, 10:54 AM
Okay. Just wanted to make sure that you were going to put some reinforcement in there. One suggestion though, when using cloth, or any other woven material, make sure that you put it deep enough into your laminate that you don't grind through it when doing your body work. I usually put a layer of mat, then a layer of cloth, then however much mat is necessary to do your body work. As far as the properties of West system, it's great stuff, and you should have no issues with it and your paint as long as your surface is properly prepped. I would strongly suggest using a good epoxy primer of the same system as your paint.

jrork
04-02-2007, 07:07 PM
Thanks guys. I'm going for it. Ground and layed the fiberglass way back. Gotta be honest and say that it bummed me out more than a little to do that to the beautiful boat but I'm just sticking with it and it'll be cool. If this didnt have such a tight seam before it might of been easy but damn, it was almost impossible to see to the point that I needed to use a yellow paint pen and mark the seam so I would be able to see it while I was grinding......:(
Thanks for the help and stay tuned......John

curtis73
04-03-2007, 01:19 AM
Capping is when you remove the rub rail and perminately bond the top of the boat to hull. Extra work but personally I think it looks really clean and is worth the work.
ah... thanks for the clarification.
You're right... the rub rail looks kinda ugly.

jrork
04-10-2007, 05:04 PM
Does anybody know if I can use the more "normal" fiberglass reinforced filler for the final touch up and finishing or should I just stick with the West System Epoxy with some more of their colodial silica?

71tahiti
04-14-2007, 05:24 PM
use the micro light fairing filler for final. Lot easier to sand....

dwmmatt23
04-17-2007, 10:47 PM
i work at west marine and only sell west systems to anybody thats doing glass work, best stuff by far

jrork
04-19-2007, 06:09 AM
use the micro light fairing filler for final. Lot easier to sand....
Thanks. I went with the 406 for most of the work but that stuff is HARD to sand for any final finishing. I'll try to 409 or 410 like you suggest

jrork
04-22-2007, 07:18 PM
For the record I ended up going with 407 for a filler additive on the last layers. This stuff sands like butter! Nice and smooth and easy. I love it.

jrork
04-25-2007, 07:16 PM
Okay, everything is sanded and blocked out and looks really good. Now come the next question of primers/sealers. Can I lightly sand it down to provide a good mechanical bond and apply a Epoxy primer like DP40 and get a good mechanical and chemical bond? My experiance (cars only) was to put a coat of something like DP40 reduced to serve as a primer/sealer. From here I would lay on a high build primer/surfacer like K-200 and start my blocksanding. I realize these paints are probably old school now but hopefully you get the drift of what I'm trying to do.
Thanks again for all of your help......john

Lefty
05-15-2007, 11:17 AM
I just got done going through this process. I sanded the gel coat with 80 grit then sprayed it with PCL epoxy primer. Then I used a white sealer made by House of Kolor and just stayed with there product. If you are going to use PPG for top coat I would try use all there products, sealers and such. You could still use PCL primer it works really well. You can sand and block it then reprime. Good luck

jrork
05-19-2007, 07:03 AM
Thanks Lefty. That looks like the direction I'm going to go. You have any pictures of your boat while you were working on it? I always like to see project pictures.
Thanks again......John

bikerboater
05-19-2007, 12:02 PM
Okay, everything is sanded and blocked out and looks really good. Now come the next question of primers/sealers. Can I lightly sand it down to provide a good mechanical bond and apply a Epoxy primer like DP40 and get a good mechanical and chemical bond? My experiance (cars only) was to put a coat of something like DP40 reduced to serve as a primer/sealer. From here I would lay on a high build primer/surfacer like K-200 and start my blocksanding. I realize these paints are probably old school now but hopefully you get the drift of what I'm trying to do.
Thanks again for all of your help......john
PPG doesn't sell the K-200 anymore. Too many VOCs I was told. I switched to Marhyde Ultimate 2K (Purple can) It actually works much better in my opinion. It sets up faster and is much easier to sand. K-200 always seemed to gum up the paper like it wasn't set off completely. Plus if you hosed it on too heavy it would develop tiny pinholes or bubbles. The Marhyde doesn't do this. I apply it over DP epoxy all the time. I'm in autobody and haven't seen much that DP won't stick to. I'm no marine expert but hope this helps.

bikerboater
05-19-2007, 12:15 PM
Okay, everything is sanded and blocked out and looks really good. Now come the next question of primers/sealers. Can I lightly sand it down to provide a good mechanical bond and apply a Epoxy primer like DP40 and get a good mechanical and chemical bond? My experiance (cars only) was to put a coat of something like DP40 reduced to serve as a primer/sealer. From here I would lay on a high build primer/surfacer like K-200 and start my blocksanding. I realize these paints are probably old school now but hopefully you get the drift of what I'm trying to do.
Thanks again for all of your help......john
PPG doesn't sell the K-200 anymore. Too many VOCs I was told. I switched to Marhyde Ultimate 2K (Purple can) It actually works much better in my opinion. It sets up faster and is much easier to sand. K-200 always seemed to gum up the paper like it wasn't set off completely. Plus if you hosed it on too heavy it would develop tiny pinholes or bubbles. The Marhyde doesn't do this. I apply it over DP epoxy all the time. I'm in autobody and haven't seen much that DP won't stick to. I'm no marine expert but hope this helps.

bikerboater
05-19-2007, 12:17 PM
Sorry for the double post. server went goofy

jrork
05-20-2007, 06:36 AM
Thanks Biker. Yah, I haven't seen any mention of the K200 on the boards though I do see K36 is still around. I always thought K200 was a step up but I can accept the VOC issues. I used that setup on my coupe back around 1991 and the paint still looks good (more of a garage queen though).
I'll check out the Marhyde stuff too. Thanks again

bikerboater
05-20-2007, 07:26 AM
Never cared for the K36 myself. Definetly not as high a build and harder to sand. I also saw a lot of sandscratch swelling with it. A good friend of mine also has a shop & we both switched to the Marhyde and love it. Really good build and sands like butter. Been useing that system a couple of years now & no comebacks. Did a TR-4 over the winter with it & turned out great. Good luck with the project. Those dang rubrails never seem to be in the right place anyway!LOL

Lefty
05-23-2007, 01:54 PM
First thing I did was strip the boat, then I filled all holes and reglassed the cap.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Cathy_Pics_-_Nov_012.jpg
Then I primered with PCL and block sanded.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/IMG_0003.jpg
I repeated this process a couple times. I wet sanded and got ready for sealer. I sealed, put base color down under the orange then sprayed the orange and then cleared all in the same day.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/IMG_0506.jpg
I then sanded and put all the different colors on in between each color. I cleared the different colors and re sanded. Hope to finish tonight. Hope this helps I will be posting pics in v-drive section when it is complete.

jrork
05-24-2007, 06:54 PM
Damn! That looks fantastic...... Can't wait to see it done and appreciate the pics so I can keep inspired.
What did you use for paint, HVLP or HP gun?
Keep the pics coming

Lefty
05-25-2007, 01:15 PM
I used a HVLP gun. I have been spraying with an HVLP for years now, and I still have problems. although this seemed to come out a little better. I like them because more of the material makes it to your surface and not in the air. Good luck with your project.

jrork
05-25-2007, 02:38 PM
Thanks Lefty. Your boat looks awesome. Hope mine turns out half as good as yours. I'm gonna try the HVLP dealio. That'll be new to me. I'm an old school HP Devilbess kinda guy but I'm gonna give it a try.. Congrats

Lefty
05-25-2007, 06:03 PM
jrork If you do try the HVLP spray your primer to test how the gun sprays because it is definately different, don't start with a new gun at final paint stages. Thanks for the compliment, but it's actually my brothers boat. I just painted it. Good luck with your project.

71tahiti
06-11-2007, 06:16 PM
Lucky Brother :D
Nice Work!!

jrork
06-15-2007, 11:16 AM
jrork If you do try the HVLP spray your primer to test how the gun sprays because it is definately different, don't start with a new gun at final paint stages. Thanks for the compliment, but it's actually my brothers boat. I just painted it. Good luck with your project.
Definately. I'm going to get a gun with a couple different tips and practice shooting the primer surfacer. If I can get the hang of it, I might drag a buddy in that shoots for a living. I'm just more of a do it yourself kinda guy so I can learn. We'll see
Thanks for the tip.......John