Vdrive Plate Struts - Their Value?

[VDRIVERACING]

I run a cruiser in circle racing; not the best funded, but always looking for "critical" components and trying to understand their role. Attached is a pic of a vdrive with a support strut/plate angling from the drive at about 60 degress to the stringer.
Questions:
1) What, specifically, creates the need for this device, and what are the various designs intended to address that need? Got pics?
2) Which directions would flex occur? For example, is it more fore-aft, is it flexing to one side, etc...
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27851&stc=1&d=1175533030

[WannabeRacing]

Lets look at some quick physics. Lets say the average boat on this site is 2000 pounds. The average horsepower is about 700 and climbing. Now, the prop is the single and sole propulsion of the boat. And every single ounce of energy to send the boat forward at the average speed on this page, which would be around 90 mph, is held by one little slim piece of aluminum. You can take that piece of aluminum between two blocks and stand on it and bend it. It is not that stout. Now look at the flex it could get if you put 2000 pounds on it with 700 horsepower of thrust. It will flex. No doubt. Too much flex can mis-allign gears and cause them to break, wear, etc. Can hurt the case, and can make the prop slip forward enough to hit the strut.
Any method of making the v-drive plate flex less and disperse the energy propelling the boat forward to other spots on the boat is a good thing. The angle is nice. But an adjustable 4-link type of deal is better as it is adjustable.
http://www.buzzzmiller.com/vbrace1.jpg
http://www.buzzzmiller.com/vbrace3.jpg
Here are some ideas

[adjones419]

I don't know why anyone would not run a v-drive plate brace! You can use the 4-link with the Heim joins and bars as shown above or the aluminum plates. On our P/E hydro, we have aluminum plates running from the v-drive plate to the front and the link bars running from the v-drive plate back to the engine plate and rails.
A flex of the plate would cause a serious mis-alignment and you're just asking for trouble if you don't fix it. I've heard to always check the "passenger" side stringer to make sure the v-drive plate is secure because of the torque. Makes sense I guess?

[vee-driven]

yea what wannabe said, here is a pic of my setup when i was workin on the boat.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o236/path5150/newboat006.jpg

[sawtooth]

[QUOTE=WannabeRacing;2477682]. But an adjustable 4-link type of deal is better as it is adjustable.
Is this something that changes over time and needs readjusting or is it better for installation. Just asking because I have only seen the flat plate or solid bar fixed end type :confused:

[GofastRacer]

Well if you make decent brackets you don't need all that other stuff and you can keep it sanitary!..
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27893&stc=1&d=1175565265

[Racey]

Well if you make decent brackets you don't need all that other stuff and you can keep it sanitary!..
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27893&stc=1&d=1175565265
Still not as strong as running braces, though in flat's it not quite as critical as most of the v-drive plate is down low at the load point, V-bottoms are worse when the v-drive plate is held in from up top, really giving the propshaft extra leverage to push and bend that plate. it is amazing how much any given peice of metal flexes under light or heavy loads, i hate looking at a v-drive boat without braces, just one of my pet peeves:devil: :D

[GofastRacer]

If you say so!..:D

[Racey]

I guess if you never break anything it's strong enough ;)

[GofastRacer]

K boats with 1200 hp don't break em!..

[WannabeRacing]

The extra long brackets like Art is stating is very helpful. If they head in almost to the case it is basically doubling or more the thickness of the plate, which physics would say less flex will occur. I like braces because I like things overdone. ("If less is more, just think how much more, more would be.")
And the adjustable deal does not really move over time. It is just nice to be able to adjust it so there is slight tension on both sides equally. The aluminum plate is at the mercy of drilling perfectly, etc. Also, some of the 4 link style like to pull on the bottom two bars to keep from flexing forward, and a slight push on the top two. So the V-drive does not try and swivel in the mounts. You start to see this when the top two bars are higher on the case. Keeps the alignment of the prop shaft and v-drive shaft perfect.
I guess what I am saying is that any bracing is better than just a single plate down the center of the v-drive.

[GofastRacer]

If they head in almost to the case it is basically doubling or more the thickness of the plate, which physics would say less flex will occur.
Less flex, they ain't going nowhere!..

[VDRIVERACING]

Thank you for the info, Gentlemen... I think I have a better understanding of the stress on the Vdrive now. We used 1/2" midplate and 1/2" mounting brackets 4" wide, and it made it through its first GN race OK.
I'm, definitely going to add some struts top and bottom.

[Life's Rough]

Thank you for the info, Gentlemen... I think I have a better understanding of the stress on the Vdrive now. We used 1/2" midplate and 1/2" mounting brackets 4" wide, and it made it through its first GN race OK.
I'm, definitely going to add some struts top and bottom.
The reason the K,s or other circle flats get away with this is the solid drive line is the brace. If you have a slip type drive shaft the extra bracing is a must. The blue boat shown in V-Driven's photo bent the prop shaft twice, then the shown supports were added and this never happened again My 2 cents and this is fact.

[GofastRacer]

The reason the K,s or other circle flats get away with this is the solid drive line is the brace. If you have a slip type drive shaft the extra bracing is a must. The blue boat shown in V-Driven's photo bent the prop shaft twice, then the shown supports were added and this never happened again My 2 cents and this is fact.
Hey Pat, the solid driveline can't be the brace because it is splined on the motor end so it can slide, BUT the push is not on the top it's on the bottom and from the pic all it had was some tiny brackets that's why things moved and fkd up the shaft!.. Ask Wayne about that!..:D

[adjones419]

Here are some more pictures of the 4-link bar brace setup in a friend's new TR-4
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4_2.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4_3.JPG

[gn7]

The blue boat shown in V-Driven's photo bent the prop shaft twice, then the shown supports were added and this never happened again My 2 cents and this is fact.
Who was driving when it bend the prop shafts, sure as hell couldn't have been you. Must have been some hired gun.:D

[superdave013]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4_3.JPG
That's a bad ass case. One of JJ Beaver's deals right?

[Flat Magic]

No roger way racing 704-664-7554.

[superdave013]

No roger way racing 704-664-7554.
Thanks for the correction. We had a set of those go through here and they came from JJ. So I just assumed he made or had them made. Super nice looking cases. They had larger bearings for the top shaft if I remember right.
Have not heard Roger Way's name in years. Bought an injector hat from him a long time ago.

[Flat Magic]

I think that JJ gets them from roger he also makes the billet
output housing cases are very sweet. roger is a great guy
i think he keeps most of that stuff in stock.

[VDRIVERACING]

[QUOTE=adjones419;2479389]Here are some more pictures of the 4-link bar brace setup in a friend's new TR-4
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4_2.JPG
This setup is absolutely sick!!! Do you know where I can get the hardware?

[adjones419]

The v-drive is from Roger Way. As for the rest of the hardware, I think he and Mike Cline made most of it and what they couldn't make they ordered from Bergeron.

[sawtooth]

Does the Lenco clutch or 2 speed (can't tell) take the place of a wirl-a-way on the v drive? Nice looking set up by the way.

[Flat Magic]

The billet output housing has a whirlaway still it just stays
locked in all the time.Clutch becomes the in and out.

[adjones419]

The billet output housing has a whirlaway still it just stays
locked in all the time.Clutch becomes the in and out.
Exactly! The Roger Way unit doesn't have an in and out like other v-drives, so the Lenco clutch is used as the in and out.

[RiverDave]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27893&stc=1&d=1175565265
The extra long brackets like Art is stating is very helpful. If they head in almost to the case it is basically doubling or more the thickness of the plate, which physics would say less flex will occur. I like braces because I like things overdone. ("If less is more, just think how much more, more would be.")
And the adjustable deal does not really move over time. It is just nice to be able to adjust it so there is slight tension on both sides equally. The aluminum plate is at the mercy of drilling perfectly, etc. Also, some of the 4 link style like to pull on the bottom two bars to keep from flexing forward, and a slight push on the top two. So the V-drive does not try and swivel in the mounts. You start to see this when the top two bars are higher on the case. Keeps the alignment of the prop shaft and v-drive shaft perfect.
I guess what I am saying is that any bracing is better than just a single plate down the center of the v-drive.
Actually that's not true.. As it sits he has a plate sandwiched by two plates. While on the surface it may look like he has doubled/tripled the thickness of the plate in reality he hasn't. The center plate will bend slightly and the outer two plates will ever so slightly "slide" on the center plate. For example the plate closest to the transom will slide in compression ever so slightly until they either hit the clearances on the bolts, or the compression of the two plates over comes the force bending it. The Plate towards the bow will slide in extension until the same things afore mentioned happened.
That setup is only making things slightly more rigid through the compression of the two plates, but it's not NEARLY as strong as if it were to be one solid plate that was recessed.
In other words it doesn't take hardly anymore force to slightly bend Go Fast Racer's setup then it does if all that stuff wasn't there. The upside to his setup though is it will bend very minimally and then it's not gonna bend no more. I.E. It's strong but it's not "rigid."
If he wanted to drastically increase the rigidity of that setup he could take it out of the boat, put it all together, and drill and ream several precision holes down the centerline. Put some nice "press fit" dowel pins through those holes to align the plates to each other, and cancel out any linear movement, and the possibillity of the plates slightly sliding on each other when enough force to overcome the compression of the screws occurs. By removing the linear motion, you've come drastically closer to making them in fact one big plate.
Less flex, they ain't going nowhere!..
I wasn't trying to critisize your setup, and I hope it's not taken as such. I don't know jack shit about V-Drives, but I did have an engineering project awhile back that had a very similar setup to the clamp style deal your using for your plates. That's how I ended up finding out that just screwing three plates together doesn't really help your program much if you need it to be "rigid" and not to move.
RD

[VDRIVERACING]

Does the Lenco clutch or 2 speed (can't tell) take the place of a wirl-a-way on the v drive? Nice looking set up by the way.
Nope.

[Rexone]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27893&stc=1&d=1175565265
Actually that's not true.. As it sits he has a plate sandwiched by two plates. While on the surface it may look like he has doubled/tripled the thickness of the plate in reality he hasn't. The center plate will bend slightly and the outer two plates will ever so slightly "slide" on the center plate. For example the plate closest to the transom will slide in compression ever so slightly until they either hit the clearances on the bolts, or the compression of the two plates over comes the force bending it. The Plate towards the bow will slide in extension until the same things afore mentioned happened.
That setup is only making things slightly more rigid through the compression of the two plates, but it's not NEARLY as strong as if it were to be one solid plate that was recessed.
In other words it doesn't take hardly anymore force to slightly bend Go Fast Racer's setup then it does if all that stuff wasn't there. The upside to his setup though is it will bend very minimally and then it's not gonna bend no more. I.E. It's strong but it's not "rigid."
If he wanted to drastically increase the rigidity of that setup he could take it out of the boat, put it all together, and drill and ream several precision holes down the centerline. Put some nice "press fit" dowel pins through those holes to align the plates to each other, and cancel out any linear movement, and the possibillity of the plates slightly sliding on each other when enough force to overcome the compression of the screws occurs. By removing the linear motion, you've come drastically closer to making them in fact one big plate.
My head hurts. :squiggle: :D
I agree tho.
no braces = Flex
GFR reinforced brackets = much less flex
Braces or struts = no flex.

[WannabeRacing]

Many of that is absolutely true.
But one other variable is how large the holes are drilled in comparison to the size of the sholder of the bolts. (Also how square the holes are to the plate). Also if you have the sholder of the bolt through the three plates and not on the threads which break down and make slop which give room for the plates sliding.
If the holes are very tight to the bolt, and the shoulder sits through all three plates, it is very similar to the press fit dowells that you are speaking of. Having the holes sloppy to the bolts, and the threads in the area of the plates does allow for the movement you are discussing.
Art is a precision guy. I can bet that his set-up is basically a light press fit set of bolts in that plate. But just looking at it and then copying it with sloppy holes and improper fit would not be a ton stronger than stock.

[lucky]

and this is why i like hot boat - you fockers are a talented bunch of homo cock suckers :) Nice boat candy :D

[RiverDave]

Many of that is absolutely true.
But one other variable is how large the holes are drilled in comparison to the size of the sholder of the bolts. (Also how square the holes are to the plate). Also if you have the sholder of the bolt through the three plates and not on the threads which break down and make slop which give room for the plates sliding.
If the holes are very tight to the bolt, and the shoulder sits through all three plates, it is very similar to the press fit dowells that you are speaking of. Having the holes sloppy to the bolts, and the threads in the area of the plates does allow for the movement you are discussing.
Art is a precision guy. I can bet that his set-up is basically a light press fit set of bolts in that plate. But just looking at it and then copying it with sloppy holes and improper fit would not be a ton stronger than stock.
Again sounds good in theory, but not really true.. If that plate bent .015 forward it might only distort .002-.003 thousandths in a linear direction in the area that the bolts are in. (Which I can assure you he's more then that for clearance for bolts.) The bolts will require some clearance because if they were line - line you'd never be able to get them in the holes... That's why they need to be a "press fit" there can't be any clearances if you want a truly rigid setup. I.E. Pressed in 1/2 inch dowels..
At the end of the day it doesn't really matter.. If the objective is to get the setup to be rigid and not to move (at all) then adding some press fit dowels around the plates will greatly increase the odds of zero flex in his setup. If the objective is to have the plates not move beyond this Point __________ and his current setup does that... Well then he's succeeded in his task.
Like I said I dunno shit about the setup of a V-Drive nor do I pretend to know. I just know from machining over the years what's "rigid" and what is not, and currently that's not much more rigid then just the single plate. Just beyond a certain point it won't bend as far as a single plate but it will bend with minimal increase of force to a degree.
RD

[VDRIVERACING]

I'll weigh in and state that literal rigid vs. flex has room (:D ) for debate, but the question I need answered is what is required for successful completion of duty without mishap...
Some boats do not run braces at all. Still, just because they don't does not mean a benefit exists. At 800+ HP and 100MPH speeds, I need every ounce of consistency from the propulsion system I can muster because it helps me maintain control of the boat, and my bladder.
Certainly, reducing the fore-aft "pivot" of the vdrive makes sense--now--since that movement changes the relative fore-aft position of the prop, which in turn would affect the attitude of the boat.

[Lookin for Liquid]

Still not as strong as running braces, though in flat's it not quite as critical as most of the v-drive plate is down low at the load point, V-bottoms are worse when the v-drive plate is held in from up top, really giving the propshaft extra leverage to push and bend that plate. it is amazing how much any given peice of metal flexes under light or heavy loads, i hate looking at a v-drive boat without braces, just one of my pet peeves:devil: :D
Looks like you have the rotational shear load covered with all the clamping and bolts but.....is that a mock up coupler I hope?

[Lookin for Liquid]

I'll weigh in and state that literal rigid vs. flex has room (:D ) for debate, but the question I need answered is what is required for successful completion of duty without mishap...
Some boats do not run braces at all. Still, just because they don't does not mean a benefit exists. At 800+ HP and 100MPH speeds, I need every ounce of consistency from the propulsion system I can muster because it helps me maintain control of the boat, and my bladder.
Certainly, reducing the fore-aft "pivot" of the vdrive makes sense--now--since that movement changes the relative fore-aft position of the prop, which in turn would affect the attitude of the boat.
OK...this is gettin way too good here!
About ten years ago and about 6=30 packs I actually wanted to have a sliding V-drive setup for the standing start system currently in use. I will let this take it's own path now and Mike...I will send you some asprin!

[gn7]

OK...this is gettin way too good here!
About ten years ago and about 6=30 packs I actually wanted to have a sliding V-drive setup for the standing start system currently in use.
Ballsy thought there, and I thought the Nitro Bullit was interesting with a variable strut angle
Some guys shouldn't drink and think at the same time

[msmeads1]

I like Art's set up. Keep up the good work Art. Will "get er" done soon:)

[GofastRacer]

I can bet that his set-up is basically a light press fit set of bolts in that plate. But just looking at it and then copying it with sloppy holes and improper fit would not be a ton stronger than stock.
Now how did you guess that,LOL, that is correct and the bolts will have a shoulder going all the way thru, two 3/8's brackets and a 3/8" plate it ain't going nowhere!..:D

[GofastRacer]

I like Art's set up. Keep up the good work Art. Will "get er" done soon:)
Thanks Jon, whenever you're ready as soon as I get Scott's boat done!..;)

[GofastRacer]

the plate closest to the transom will slide in compression ever so slightly until they either hit the clearances on the bolts
In other words it doesn't take hardly anymore force to slightly bend Go Fast Racer's setup then it does if all that stuff wasn't there.
What bolt clearance???????????? were you here when I did this????????????...
I wasn't trying to critisize your setup
Say what????????????????
I don't know jack shit about V-Drives
You got that right!.....

[schiada96]

Yeahh but where does the prop push from? When it picks up the back of the boat at the strut? I think a couple of stainless dowells on that setup would be plenty strong. I know I'm just starting crap.

[Racey]

Anyone who's rigged a v-drive knows how critical V-drive--to--Strut Alignment is, the slightest mis-align and you can feel the shaft start to bind almost immediately, By using the Braces you are guaranteeing that under load your Plate won't flex causing unnecessary load and bind on the shaft, bottom shaft bearings, strut bearings, whip-strut bearings, etc, which in turn wears all these parts excessively, or bends/breaks a shaft. Bending a given piece of metal is far far easier than stretching it, that's why i like external supports. That's just my 2 cents on the situation
Some guys think there isn't enough flex to make a difference anyway.
Others think your crazy not to run supports.
I guess for the guys that don't run supports and have never broken anything, it must be fine. Turning all this into pure theoretical argument.
Personally I'd rather overbuild everything, I'll continue running supports.
If we all built these things the same way there'd be none of these great name calling/my ways better threads going on to keep us all entertained at work :D :D

[RiverDave]

What bolt clearance???????????? were you here when I did this????????????...
Say what????????????????
You got that right!.....
Hey bro I wasn't trying to insult your setup, and even pointed that out several times..
The fact of the matter is you DO HAVE bolt clearance other wise they wouldn't be in there. The other point of the matter is the things I said aren't up for debate there a fact, they are NOT a matter of opinion, becuase they are facts. Those two plates on the outside are doing very little to help your cause right now.
The Fact of the matter is, if that deal works for you then it served it's purpoes. The other FACT of the matter is if those plates are held together in compression (by the bolts being tightened) and they are NOT indexed to each other so they WILL in fact ever so slightly slide on each other... basically defeating your whole purpose. I don't understand where any of that got personal?
Or if you really feel like debating about it.. Please go ahead and tell me and the rest of the world how you have bolts with no clearance? Even if you have .002 clearance, which is barely enough to get them in the holes (which I'll flat garauntee you have more then that.. probably more in the neighborhood of .010 - .015 if I had to guess) then those plates aren't doing much of anything (very little) until your whole program has moved quite aways (in machining terms) foward.
RD

[RiverDave]

Yeahh but where does the prop push from? When it picks up the back of the boat at the strut? I think a couple of stainless dowells on that setup would be plenty strong. I know I'm just starting crap.
The stainless dowels I suggested were just a band aid to help with that program. Honestly in thinking about it further while they would help, they aren't the end all cure to that problem. I do have a sano solution that would solve it, but go fast racer don't seem to interested in hearing it so I'll keep to myself.
Incidentally the stainless dowels were only there to "index" the plates to each other to keep them from sliding on top of one another 50 millionts or a thou in any direction. As I said earlier a thou in one direction could end up being 7 or 10 in the other direction.. Doesn't much matter though.
RD

[D Ginny]

Hey bro I wasn't trying to insult your setup, and even pointed that out several times..
The fact of the matter is you DO HAVE bolt clearance other wise they wouldn't be in there. The other point of the matter is the things I said aren't up for debate there a fact, they are NOT a matter of opinion, becuase they are facts. Those two plates on the outside are doing very little to help your cause right now.
The Fact of the matter is, if that deal works for you then it served it's purpoes. The other FACT of the matter is if those plates are held together in compression (by the bolts being tightened) and they are NOT indexed to each other so they WILL in fact ever so slightly slide on each other... basically defeating your whole purpose. I don't understand where any of that got personal?
Or if you really feel like debating about it.. Please go ahead and tell me and the rest of the world how you have bolts with no clearance? Even if you have .002 clearance, which is barely enough to get them in the holes (which I'll flat garauntee you have more then that.. probably more in the neighborhood of .010 - .015 if I had to guess) then those plates aren't doing much of anything (very little) until your whole program has moved quite aways (in machining terms) foward.
RD
Don't trip that guy takes everything personal

[RiverDave]

Don't trip that guy takes everything personal
I'm not worried about it. I honestly didn't mean to offend the guy though, and I'm sorry for that.
RD

[superdave013]

hey RD, can you post the calc's on all of that? :D

[RiverDave]

hey RD, can you post the calc's on all of that? :D
I'm sure I could persuade young James down here to model that setup into CAD, and run some FEA on it to tell you exactly how much it'll bend under certain loads etc..
I could probably calculate the linear distortion of the plate in relation to how much it bends without having to model it into CAD. Couldn't tell ya how much force it would take to actually bend it, but a mock up and put it on my press out back and I could show ya with a dial indicator pretty close to real world conditions.. Unfortunately without getting crazy on the "quick jig" it would have to load it from the drive shaft plane, instead of the prop shaft angle.
RD

[Jetboatguru]

Art,
take that Vdrive and put a drive shaft in it. Grab the end of the driveshaft and rock it up and down. I'm guessing that it flexes a considerable amount. It looks good though! You can never have too much bracing on the Vdrive. I am gonna put a half inch plate in the Vdrive.

[FlatStupid]

I'm sure I could persuade young James down here to model that setup into CAD, and run some FEA on it to tell you exactly how much it'll bend under certain loads etc..
I could probably calculate the linear distortion of the plate in relation to how much it bends without having to model it into CAD. Couldn't tell ya how much force it would take to actually bend it, but a mock up and put it on my press out back and I could show ya with a dial indicator pretty close to real world conditions.. Unfortunately without getting crazy on the "quick jig" it would have to load it from the drive shaft plane, instead of the prop shaft angle.
RDYou gotta love this place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[superdave013]

so with out the calc's run before hand what you state is not fact at all. It is more like e-speculation. ;) :D
Hey, not bad e-speculation but it's still e-speculation non the less.
One thing I noticed spending 16 years building and designing large structures is the people who don't know how to run the calc's always seem to way over build things. Not sayin that is the case here though.

[superdave013]

You gotta love this place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
lol, you should print that out and take it with you to your next meeting with the city planner's design engineer.
City Planner: What's the loading on that section?
CK: Well I could probably calculate that or better yet, have young James do it. :D :D

[FlatStupid]

lol, you should print that out and take it with you to your next meeting with the city planner's design engineer.
City Planner: What's the loading on that section?
CK: Well I could probably calculate that or better yet, have young James do it. :D :DNo the answer would be, "honestly I dont have a clue, let me get Art or Dave on the phone!":D

[Unchained]

The fact of the matter is you DO HAVE bolt clearance other wise they wouldn't be in there. The other point of the matter is the things I said aren't up for debate there a fact, they are NOT a matter of opinion, becuase they are facts. Those two plates on the outside are doing very little to help your cause right now.
The other FACT of the matter is if those plates are held together in compression (by the bolts being tightened) and they are NOT indexed to each other so they WILL in fact ever so slightly slide on each other... basically defeating your whole purpose. I don't understand where any of that got personal?
Or if you really feel like debating about it.. Please go ahead and tell me and the rest of the world how you have bolts with no clearance? Even if you have .002 clearance, which is barely enough to get them in the holes (which I'll flat garauntee you have more then that.. probably more in the neighborhood of .010 - .015 if I had to guess) then those plates aren't doing much of anything (very little) until your whole program has moved quite aways (in machining terms) forward.
RD
Your points about bolt hole clearance are correct although the clearances are very small, but what you're not considering enough is the accumulated friction between the surfaces that those bolts are clamping together. Six 3/8" bolts on each side provide a lot of clamping force. There isn't going to be any sliding there at all. At a certain amount of bolt torque the plates would be solid even if he had clearance holes. I think that sandwiched setup that GFR has would add a significant amount of rigidity. Now if he only had a couple bolts on each side it would be different.
Also, there always is an "allowable deflection" to consider. Buildling something with a higher allowable deflection allows lighter materials.
Steel buildings have an allowable deflection of around 1/200 of the span of roof beams.
Building something and wanting 0 allowable deflection might take 4 times the amount of structure to accomplish. Deflections below a certain small amount, are not worth getting hung up on.

[RiverDave]

so with out the calc's run before hand what you state is not fact at all. It is more like e-speculation. ;) :D
Hey, not bad e-speculation but it's still e-speculation non the less.
One thing I noticed spending 16 years building and designing large structures is the people who don't know how to run the calc's always seem to way over build things. Not sayin that is the case here though.
If you hand drew a 3 sided figure on a peace of paper, I could indentify it as a triangle.. I might not know the exact angles of the triangle without measuring it, but it'd be safe to say it was a triangle.. ;)
It is what it is Dave. This isn't speculation, the plates don't have anything (visible) to prevent lateral movement. So it's not a question of if it's as strong as the same plate 3 times as thick.. but rather how much is it going to bend under what loads, and what's acceptable.
My main point was somebody said that stacking 3 plates in that configuration was similar to having one block that same thickness. It's not. That's not "e-speculation" but rather a fact.
The 4 link setup is ridiculously more rigid then this setup.. I don't need to have "Young James" here run the calcs to tell you that. If this setup is strong enough for the current loads though, then hey fine it works? But GoFastRacers original statement that you don't need all that stuff if you do this, and this looks better (paraphrased) is somewhat suspect.
RD

[RiverDave]

Your points about bolt hole clearance are correct although the clearances are very small, but what you're not considering enough is the accumulated friction between the surfaces that those bolts are clamping together. Six 3/8" bolts on each side provide a lot of clamping force. There isn't going to be any sliding there at all. At a certain amount of bolt torque the plates would be solid even if he had clearance holes. I think that sandwiched setup that GFR has would add a significant amount of rigidity. Now if he only had a couple bolts on each side it would be different.
Also, there always is an "allowable deflection" to consider. Buildling something with a higher allowable deflection allows lighter materials.
Steel buildings have an allowable deflection of around 1/200 of the span of roof beams.
Building something and wanting 0 allowable deflection might take 4 times the amount of structure to accomplish. Deflections below a certain small amount, are not worth getting hung up on.
I'll tell ya what for the naysayers... If you guys really want to debate this shiznit we'll make a bet. I'll you 200 bucks (about the cost of materials) that I can take 3 sheets of aluminum, bolt them together in the same fashion using the same bolts and crank the shit out of them all day long.. I'll support those 3 plates on 2 1,2,3 blocks roughly 18 - 20 inches apart.
I will stick them in a hydraulic press with a Dial Indicator mounted to it..
I will put about 4 thousand pounds on it, and take a reading of how much it moved.
I will then rig the same setup with one solid block the same thickness and mount it in the same way. I'll bet that the solid block will bend less then the 3 stacked together.
We'll put the "E-Speculation" to the test..
Any takers Unchained?
I'll also bet (for a little more money) that if I rig up a 4 link system like the ones shown here, that I'll probably break my press before I get that focker to move a measurable amount.
This shit isn't theories... It's common sense.
I'm not trying to Cap on Art's setup, but to claim it's just as rigid as a 4 link setup is just plain wrong. His setup might work fine for what he has in the boat (how do I know?) but it is NOT as rigid as the 4 link, and I'll claim (through educated speculation sir Dave ;) ) that it will NOT live up to the claim that 3 stacked together with nothing to prevent lateral movement will be just as strong as a solid plate.
I'll order the materials over the weekend just to finally put this thing to rest..
RD

[superdave013]

Dave, a real engineer would not waste time or money on the materials for that test. He would just run the numbers.
So at this point yes, you’re still in “E-Speculation” mode. :D :D

[GofastRacer]

I'm not trying to Cap on Art's setup, but to claim it's just as rigid as a 4 link setup is just plain wrong.
Bullshit, that's all the **** you been doing, and SHOW me the EXACT words where I said it was just as rigid, I never claimed that at all whatsoever all I said it works and you don't need the other stuff, so put a ****in lid on it!...
Art...

[VDRIVERACING]

Bullshit, that's all the **** you been doing, and SHOW me the EXACT words where I said it was just as rigid, I never claimed that at all whatsoever all I said it works and you don't need the other stuff, so put a ****in lid on it!...
Art...
The essence here truly is "what works." There's no doubt that the three layer setup is strong as shit, and it's a "cleaner" setup than the four link.
On the other hand, for a dedicated race boat, like my GN, the 800 pound gorilla 'look' is in! I'm leaning toward the four link because support points spread around at such direct angles to the opposing forces makes sense to my warped little brain.

[GofastRacer]

The essence here truly is "what works." There's no doubt that the three layer setup is strong as shit, and it's a "cleaner" setup than the four link.
On the other hand, for a dedicated race boat, like my GN, the 800 pound gorilla 'look' is in! I'm leaning toward the four link because support points spread around at such direct angles to the opposing forces makes sense to my warped little brain.
There is nothing wrong with a 4 link whatsoever and I "NEVER" said there was, and if you feel better with it then go for it, see ya at Parker!..:cool:

[GofastRacer]

like I said before, the way Art has his setup is like Schiada has been doing it for many years, even the big hp ski race & pleasure hot rods are set up this way, is it the only way, no, but it seems to work just fine.............:D
Thanks Scott, you coming over Fri morning??, got some stuff you need to see!..

[VDRIVERACING]

There is nothing wrong with a 4 link whatsoever and I "NEVER" said there was, and if you feel better with it then go for it, see ya at Parker!..:cool:
Easy, easy... I did not mean to imply you said that either. Just a choice... Go back and read my post and I think you'll find I even paid you a compliment.

[RiverDave]

Bullshit, that's all the **** you been doing, and SHOW me the EXACT words where I said it was just as rigid, I never claimed that at all whatsoever all I said it works and you don't need the other stuff, so put a ****in lid on it!...
Art...
Mr. GoFastRacer, again in every post I've been nothing but complimentary of your fab skills, on top of which I just clarified to a guy that answered a question and used yours (the only one available at the time) as an example of that setup vs the other 4 link style setup. I simply said the 4 link would be stronger, and that yours will in fact move without much more load then the single plate.
You took it personal the 1st time.. Now your taking it personal again.
The things I said are facts. They are nothing personal, I'm sorry you took it that way. I unlike many of the others on the board here am not going to sit here and look the other way becuase your throwing a temper tantrum. So I'm not overly impressed with the design of your V-Drive mount.. Why does it matter? Why throw a tantrum?
More importantly I'm not going to sit here and listen to it.
I unlike some others on here, could really give a shit. I don't need you to make parts for me, so don't expect me to kiss your ass. Your setup isn't as strong as a 4 link. Get over it. That's all it is that I said.. Then I pointed out why it's not as rigid.
I'm sorry that you and your V-Drive mount are so close that if someone doesn't like the way it sparkles your going to get all butthurt about it.
Ultimately though you did IMPLY in the beginning of this thread that the 4 links were a waste of time, and that this was just as good. I simply said (for the 6 or 7th time now) that's not the case from a rigidity stand point.
Here is your wording from the beginning of the thread.
Well if you make decent brackets you don't need all that other stuff and you can keep it sanitary!..
Racey pointed out
Still not as strong as running braces
And now you said pretty sarcastically
If you say so!..:D
Implying that they are just as strong.. I just pointed out that I don't believe them to be.
If you want to get real technical about it, WannabeRacing brought up the doubling and tripling the thickness of the plate theory, and you basically agreed with it, and that is where I disagreed. Again nothing personal.. yet you sure seem to be taking it that way?
If you want to make a bet on whether or not it's as strong then throw down your dinero. Or better yet if you believe it to be (exact wording here for ya) "Just as strong as one thick plate of the same thickness" then throw down 200 bucks and I'll prove it to ya on camera.
Oh and SuperDave013 (Mr. Potstirrer today)
Dave, a real engineer would not waste time or money on the materials for that test. He would just run the numbers.
So at this point yes, you’re still in “E-Speculation” mode.
Must be why Engineers make so many prototypes everyday.. Cause they can just run the #'s and forget about it. ;) In reality for this deal it'd be way cheaper to rig up a test bed, and try it out then to crunch the #'s in CAD and FEA. So I'm going to disagree with your statement above as well. A real engineer would validate the #'s in real world conditions becuase it's so simple to prove or disprove in this case.
Oh and Art... if you just skipped to the bottom the gest of it was "Suck it old timer... Your wrong and that's that."
RD

[superdave013]

Oh and SuperDave013 (Mr. Potstirrer today)
RD
:D :D
In this corner we have Mr. “E-Speculation” Dave weighing in at 220 pounds skinny arms and all and his trainer "young James".
And in this corner we have Mr. "Go Last" Racer weighing in at 145 soaking wet complete with Chuck Norris v drive mounting skills!
Ding Ding Ding
:D :D :D
But really Dave, CAD and FEA?? They had that kind of stuff figured out just a tad before CAD came around. lol Go look at how an old bridge is bolted together.

[GofastRacer]

Mr. GoFastRacer, again in every post I've been nothing but complimentary of your fab skills, on top of which I just clarified to a guy that answered a question and used yours (the only one available at the time) as an example of that setup vs the other 4 link style setup. I simply said the 4 link would be stronger, and that yours will in fact move without much more load then the single plate.
You took it personal the 1st time.. Now your taking it personal again.
The things I said are facts. They are nothing personal, I'm sorry you took it that way. I unlike many of the others on the board here am not going to sit here and look the other way becuase your throwing a temper tantrum. So I'm not overly impressed with the design of your V-Drive mount.. Why does it matter? Why throw a tantrum?
More importantly I'm not going to sit here and listen to it.
I unlike some others on here, could really give a shit. I don't need you to make parts for me, so don't expect me to kiss your ass. Your setup isn't as strong as a 4 link. Get over it. That's all it is that I said.. Then I pointed out why it's not as rigid.
I'm sorry that you and your V-Drive mount are so close that if someone doesn't like the way it sparkles your going to get all butthurt about it.
Ultimately though you did IMPLY in the beginning of this thread that the 4 links were a waste of time, and that this was just as good. I simply said (for the 6 or 7th time now) that's not the case from a rigidity stand point.
Here is your wording from the beginning of the thread.
Racey pointed out
And now you said pretty sarcastically
Implying that they are just as strong.. I just pointed out that I don't believe them to be.
If you want to get real technical about it, WannabeRacing brought up the doubling and tripling the thickness of the plate theory, and you basically agreed with it, and that is where I disagreed. Again nothing personal.. yet you sure seem to be taking it that way?
If you want to make a bet on whether or not it's as strong then throw down your dinero. Or better yet if you believe it to be (exact wording here for ya) "Just as strong as one thick plate of the same thickness" then throw down 200 bucks and I'll prove it to ya on camera.
Oh and SuperDave013 (Mr. Potstirrer today)
Must be why Engineers make so many prototypes everyday.. Cause they can just run the #'s and forget about it. ;) In reality for this deal it'd be way cheaper to rig up a test bed, and try it out then to crunch the #'s in CAD and FEA. So I'm going to disagree with your statement above as well. A real engineer would validate the #'s in real world conditions becuase it's so simple to prove or disprove in this case.
Oh and Art... if you just skipped to the bottom the gest of it was "Suck it old timer... Your wrong and that's that."
RD
There you again, you even quoted me and where does it say that I said it was a "WASTE OF TIME"????????????????????..Get a life dude you have a lot to learn!..Over and out!...

[RiverDave]

:D :D
In this corner we have Mr. “E-Speculation” Dave weighing in at 220 pounds skinny arms and all and his trainer "young James".
And in this corner we have Mr. "Go Last" Racer weighing in at 145 soaking wet complete with Chuck Norris v drive mounting skills!
Ding Ding Ding
:D :D :D
But really Dave, CAD and FEA?? They had that kind of stuff figured out just a tad before CAD came around. lol Go look at how an old bridge is bolted together.
I have Dave and becuase it wasn't as easy to quickly run calculations back then they usually... Well you said it best. ;)
One thing I noticed spending 16 years building and designing large structures is the people who don't know how to run the calc's always seem to way over build things. Not sayin that is the case here though.
RD

[GofastRacer]

Easy, easy... I did not mean to imply you said that either. Just a choice... Go back and read my post and I think you'll find I even paid you a compliment.
Oh I know you didn't, sorry if it sounded that way and I did notice the compliment and I thank you for it, like you said just a choice and it's cool!..

[superdave013]

He who has a lathe & mill can make all kinds of goodies, with links, without links, big fat plates, skinny hogged out plates, whats yer poison ?
RD, it's all good as long as the chips are flying and something cool is made:D
It's all good until RD creates a stress riser. :)
Now what I think VDR should do is mount that puppy just like Art does. And then put some 4 slick braces with rod ends. Best of both worlds.

[RiverDave]

There you again, you even quoted me and where does it say that I said it was a "WASTE OF TIME"????????????????????..Get a life dude you have a lot to learn!..Over and out!...
Jesus... I feel like this is an old Abbott and Costello routine.
I never claimed that you said that. Who's on first?
As far as a lot to learn.. Your absolutely right I do.
Today you showed some of what your all about. Any normal person in your shoes would've looked at what was written and taken it into consideration and come up with an opinion from it.. Maybe do a little research and make a rebuttal supporting or denying the claim?
You have no interest in learning anything.. You had an excellent opportunity to learn something today and instead you took something non personal and made it personal. That's what pissed off menopausal chicks do.. Not guys.
Are you so scared that there might've been an relatively easy to do improvement on your current setup? Were you scared or pridefull becuase it came from me and not some V-Drive god who's ass you kiss?
Now the pride that made it personal for you and managed to shut down your brain.. Was it becuase I'm young? Or becuase you didn't think about this aspect of it?
I'm just curious... Why act like a bitch when you have the oppotunity to learn and discuss something?
Since your such the smart guy did you consider anything when you built this? Or just take a look at someone elses rig and copy it?
Knowing that your sheer loading those bolts the way you are.. Did you take a look at what kinda sheer loads Stainless bolts can deal with? Whether they are better then grade 8 or not for an application like this?
Do ya know that Stainless "creeps" over time and that if you are using those 3/8th's bolts (which your not becuase of the clearances) like you claim you are that they'll creep to a new position over time anyways? Do you know that if you tighten the shit out of stainless it's gonna keep on creeping until you eventually have to get new bolts?
No you don't.. You came running out of the kitchen with the curlers still in your hair running around screaming about how I somehow disrespected you and I don't know shit.
Art between the two of us... Atleast I have an open mind.
If you saw something of mine that I built and said "You should've done this" I wouldn't have told you that you were cappin on my shiznit.. I would've said thanks for the advice.
RD

[Jordy]

The one thing I have really picked up from this thread:
RD SUX!!! :D :D :D

[lilrick]

Jesus... I feel like this is an old Abbott and Costello routine.
I never claimed that you said that. Who's on first?
As far as a lot to learn.. Your absolutely right I do.
Today you showed some of what your all about. Any normal person in your shoes would've looked at what was written and taken it into consideration and come up with an opinion from it.. Maybe do a little research and make a rebuttal supporting or denying the claim?
You have no interest in learning anything.. You had an excellent opportunity to learn something today and instead you took something non personal and made it personal. That's what pissed off menopausal chicks do.. Not guys.
Are you so scared that there might've been an relatively easy to do improvement on your current setup? Were you scared or pridefull becuase it came from me and not some V-Drive god who's ass you kiss?
Now the pride that made it personal for you and managed to shut down your brain.. Was it becuase I'm young? Or becuase you didn't think about this aspect of it?
I'm just curious... Why act like a bitch when you have the oppotunity to learn and discuss something?
Since your such the smart guy did you consider anything when you built this? Or just take a look at someone elses rig and copy it?
Knowing that your sheer loading those bolts the way you are.. Did you take a look at what kinda sheer loads Stainless bolts can deal with? Whether they are better then grade 8 or not for an application like this?
Do ya know that Stainless "creeps" over time and that if you are using those 3/8th's bolts (which your not becuase of the clearances) like you claim you are that they'll creep to a new position over time anyways? Do you know that if you tighten the shit out of stainless it's gonna keep on creeping until you eventually have to get new bolts?
No you don't.. You came running out of the kitchen with the curlers still in your hair running around screaming about how I somehow disrespected you and I don't know shit.
Art between the two of us... Atleast I have an open mind.
If you saw something of mine that I built and said "You should've done this" I wouldn't have told you that you were cappin on my shiznit.. I would've said thanks for the advice.
RD
Art basher!!:D

[GofastRacer]

Jesus... I feel like this is an old Abbott and Costello routine.
I never claimed that you said that. Who's on first?
As far as a lot to learn.. Your absolutely right I do.
Today you showed some of what your all about. Any normal person in your shoes would've looked at what was written and taken it into consideration and come up with an opinion from it.. Maybe do a little research and make a rebuttal supporting or denying the claim?
You have no interest in learning anything.. You had an excellent opportunity to learn something today and instead you took something non personal and made it personal. That's what pissed off menopausal chicks do.. Not guys.
Are you so scared that there might've been an relatively easy to do improvement on your current setup? Were you scared or pridefull becuase it came from me and not some V-Drive god who's ass you kiss?
Now the pride that made it personal for you and managed to shut down your brain.. Was it becuase I'm young? Or becuase you didn't think about this aspect of it?
I'm just curious... Why act like a bitch when you have the oppotunity to learn and discuss something?
Since your such the smart guy did you consider anything when you built this? Or just take a look at someone elses rig and copy it?
Knowing that your sheer loading those bolts the way you are.. Did you take a look at what kinda sheer loads Stainless bolts can deal with? Whether they are better then grade 8 or not for an application like this?
Do ya know that Stainless "creeps" over time and that if you are using those 3/8th's bolts (which your not becuase of the clearances) like you claim you are that they'll creep to a new position over time anyways? Do you know that if you tighten the shit out of stainless it's gonna keep on creeping until you eventually have to get new bolts?
No you don't.. You came running out of the kitchen with the curlers still in your hair running around screaming about how I somehow disrespected you and I don't know shit.
Art between the two of us... Atleast I have an open mind.
If you saw something of mine that I built and said "You should've done this" I wouldn't have told you that you were cappin on my shiznit.. I would've said thanks for the advice.
RD
Whatever, ROLMFAO!..

[D Ginny]

Jesus... I feel like this is an old Abbott and Costello routine.
I never claimed that you said that. Who's on first?
As far as a lot to learn.. Your absolutely right I do.
Today you showed some of what your all about. Any normal person in your shoes would've looked at what was written and taken it into consideration and come up with an opinion from it.. Maybe do a little research and make a rebuttal supporting or denying the claim?
You have no interest in learning anything.. You had an excellent opportunity to learn something today and instead you took something non personal and made it personal. That's what pissed off menopausal chicks do.. Not guys.
Are you so scared that there might've been an relatively easy to do improvement on your current setup? Were you scared or pridefull becuase it came from me and not some V-Drive god who's ass you kiss?
Now the pride that made it personal for you and managed to shut down your brain.. Was it becuase I'm young? Or becuase you didn't think about this aspect of it?
I'm just curious... Why act like a bitch when you have the oppotunity to learn and discuss something?
Since your such the smart guy did you consider anything when you built this? Or just take a look at someone elses rig and copy it?
Knowing that your sheer loading those bolts the way you are.. Did you take a look at what kinda sheer loads Stainless bolts can deal with? Whether they are better then grade 8 or not for an application like this?
Do ya know that Stainless "creeps" over time and that if you are using those 3/8th's bolts (which your not becuase of the clearances) like you claim you are that they'll creep to a new position over time anyways? Do you know that if you tighten the shit out of stainless it's gonna keep on creeping until you eventually have to get new bolts?
No you don't.. You came running out of the kitchen with the curlers still in your hair running around screaming about how I somehow disrespected you and I don't know shit.
Art between the two of us... Atleast I have an open mind.
If you saw something of mine that I built and said "You should've done this" I wouldn't have told you that you were cappin on my shiznit.. I would've said thanks for the advice.
RD
I 2nd that I don't claim to no it all but he did the same to me a while back

[Rexone]

How does anyone feel about a billet vdrive with a 6" thick center plate with 1" diameter lightning holes diaganally placed as to not create flex planes?
RD I bet you $200 I got more work done today than you. ;)

[V-DRIVE VIDEO]

RD I bet you $200 I got more work done today than you. ;)
Now that's funny!
Without discrediting either side.... Dave, Biesemeyers with blown alky motors have been set up without braces (same basic configuration as Arts pics) since the early 70's. Is it the strongest possible way to secure the v-drive? Maybe not, but was it good enough for the manufacturer and all the guys who splashed them since? yes! Have the v-drive plates ever broke before? rarely but yes. You'll notice several K-boats run 1/2" v-drive plates for insurance.
You guys need to let this go before Art Anderson kicks all our asses.:jawdrop: :)

[Rexone]

You guys need to let this go before Art Anderson kicks all our asses.:jawdrop: :)
Word is around town that Art can bend a 1/2" vdrive plate over Chuck Norris's head with more force than a top fueler without Chuck ever seeing it coming. Chuck's head is so damn hard though that the deflection is barely noticable. His scull reportedly has 3/4" hardened tool steel pins inserted horizontally specifically to avoid deflection from vdrive plates.

[gn7]

If you hand drew a 3 sided figure on a peace of paper, I could indentify it as a triangle.. I might not know the exact angles of the triangle without measuring it, but it'd be safe to say it was a triangle.. ;)
RD
I don't think this a totally true statrment. Time for RD to go to school. Your whole idea of what the plate is doing between the angle brackets JUNK. This is a spec. connection in every iron structure building from oil dereks to sky scrapers called SLIP CRITICAL which simply states that the force required to slip a clamped piece must be greater than the force required to deform the clamped piece. And it is being done 10 ft. away from as I type this. Its called a sheet metal break, and bending .125 316 s.s. and only clamping .500 of the material across 120 inches. Our measurements show that the material only slipping less than .0001 in the clamp. What is really happening is one side of the material is FAILING in compression while the other side is failing in tension, thus a prem. 90* bend. And all of this is being done with no bolts or pressed in sleeves. Think you can perm. deform the little bit of plate that is between those angles and the v-drive. Tony has this WAY more correct the you may think, that is why the plate is thicker today than they used in the '50s. They could have added bars back then, but it has the potential to do more harm than good.

[gn7]

How does anyone feel about a billet vdrive with a 6" thick center plate with 1" diameter lightning holes diaganally placed as to not create flex planes?
I'll two sets, bill em to my visa

[Jetboatguru]

Here are some more pictures of the 4-link bar brace setup in a friend's new TR-4
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4_2.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Dan_TR4_3.JPG
This the way to make a V drive plate. Dont cut down the top of the plate.
We cracked the V drive plate in the Traffic Cone with your setup Art. Here is the question I have, Why run the V drive plate so cut down on the top. You have taken away much of its strength.
If you know your application is not gonna be pushed hard then an unbraced V drive is probably fine. (Even though it would take you all of an hour to mount adjustable rods with heim ends)
Bottom line, by definition "bracing" it is stronger.

[RiverDave]

I don't think this a totally true statrment. Time for RD to go to school. Your whole idea of what the plate is doing between the angle brackets JUNK. This is a spec. connection in every iron structure building from oil dereks to sky scrapers called SLIP CRITICAL which simply states that the force required to slip a clamped piece must be greater than the force required to deform the clamped piece. And it is being done 10 ft. away from as I type this. Its called a sheet metal break, and bending .125 316 s.s. and only clamping .500 of the material across 120 inches. Our measurements show that the material only slipping less than .0001 in the clamp. What is really happening is one side of the material is FAILING in compression while the other side is failing in tension, thus a prem. 90* bend. And all of this is being done with no bolts or pressed in sleeves. Think you can perm. deform the little bit of plate that is between those angles and the v-drive. Tony has this WAY more correct the you may think, that is why the plate is thicker today than they used in the '50s. They could have added bars back then, but it has the potential to do more harm than good.
GN7, you quoted a 3 sided figure is a triangle as not a true statement?
As far as what I said it's absolutely true. Take a picture of what your talking about with your fixture, becuase I think we're talking about two different things.
I'm not an engineer let alone a structural engineer.. but what we're talking about here to the best of my knowledge is NOT slip critical. If it were then Art's Bolt Clearances would be alot more then what he's claiming them to be. A slip critical joint uses the friction between two plates as a joint, and the bolts only supply the load to create the friction. Those surfaces generally aren't smooth (like Arts) and the bolt holes are slightly oversized or slotted to allow some movement. Which incidentally is the very thing they were trying to eliminate?
Art's on the surface kinda looks like that, but under load when it actually does move it will become a Sheer Joint at the bolt locations.
As the center plate (the only plate being put under load) is pushed it will start to bend, the inner plate (toward transom) and outer plate (toward bow) will try to stop that via the clamping force of the bolts. Those plates are smooth and it won't take much to overcome the clamping force of the bolts becuase they WILL slide on each other.. Now this part where I'm referring to sliding on each other keep in mind as the center plate distorts say .005 in the forward direction those plates have only slid a minimal amount (probably a half a thou? .0005'ish) in a side to side direction.. Sliding may not be the best word to describe what I'm saying here... More like a Leaf Spring in the back of a truck.
Doesn't much matter, at the end of the day a 4 Link is better to hold the V-Drive perfectly still and maintain the highest amount of rigidity. This setup may work, but it isn't as rigid as a 4 link. Perhaps in Art's application this setup is fine (which is what I've said from the beginning) or who knows.. Perhaps in all setups it's fine? The only thing I disagreed with is
1. 3 plates stacked together are as strong/rigid as 1 plate the same thickness.
2. That this setup was = to the 4 link setup's pictured.
That's it.. I wasn't trying to get all personal with GoFastRacer, but apparently somthing I said blew his skirt up and got him all in a tissy... That's his deal though not mine. I don't really care if some old has been or rather... "Never Was" shade tree machinist don't like me, he can take a # and stand in line.
RD

[RiverDave]

How does anyone feel about a billet vdrive with a 6" thick center plate with 1" diameter lightning holes diaganally placed as to not create flex planes?
RD I bet you $200 I got more work done today than you. ;)
You probably did.. LOL
RD

[VDRIVERACING]

OK, hugs all around:rolleyes:
This "idea factory" is what it's all about! A lot of very knowledgable contributors sharing their training and experience. Ideas, even roughly hewn ones(like mine for example), spawn change and evolution of process.
Regardless of which method one chooses, all seem to agree that ( and I am now convinced) the vdrive plate MUST have additional support for extreme use conditions. And while the stand alone center plate may not necessarily fail, absence of braces(of whatever nature) expose the rotating propulsion components to negative value conditions.
When I bought it six years ago, my boat was rigged like a dog's breakfast out of used up spare parts from every corner of Rudy's(and other's) back lot, and over the years you and people like you have helped me turn it into a reasonable facsimile of a race boat, and it continues to evolve. You have put up with my unrelenting ignorance and persistance, and for that I am grateful.
Thank you for this important and invaluable contribution.

[dmontzsta]

so...what did I miss? :)

[RiverDave]

Who grabbed my Ass?
Sorry for the drama with Princess in your thread VDR. I'm definately not the V-Drive guru in anyway shape or form, but I did try to share some of what I know with regards to the way things work. Hope it helped out in someway.
RD

[lilrick]

It's getting way too warm and fuzzy in here now!!! FAGS! Hurry up and get back to the bantering and bitching and technical crap.

[dmontzsta]

It's getting way too warm and fuzzy in here now!!! FAGS! Hurry up and get back to the bantering and bitching and technical crap.
You like it all warm and fuzzy, you big teddy bear.

[Mr. V-Driver]

Now that everyone got to show thier Billet Cases.........................
Here's the latest from the Innovater................
CASALE ENGINEERING............KING OF THE V-DRIVES!!!
As far as plate Flex,......use 1/2 " plate, braces, and angled brackets on the stringers and should be NO problems.

[RiverDave]

Those look good Mr. V-driver.
How much does something like that cost complete with a set of 50'ish gears in it?
RD

[dmontzsta]

Those look good Mr. V-driver.
How much does something like that cost complete with a set of 50'ish gears in it?
RD
He is going to have to PM you that, it might scare everyone. :D

[Sangerboy]

Dang you guys must have been drinking a lot of beer over the last couple of days with all the pissin going on:rolleyes:

[Terminal Velocity]

Well if you make decent brackets you don't need all that other stuff and you can keep it sanitary!..
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27893&stc=1&d=1175565265
I don't want to get into all this bear drinking and pissing:D , but Art i do have one or two questions. That drive seems pretty far up under the dash. and looking at it where do you plan on mounting the loud pedal? Just curious. what the dimensions are to the transom and the theory behind the location(s).

[gn7]

GN7, you quoted a 3 sided figure is a triangle as not a true statement?
RD
NO! As to whether or not you could recognize it as a triangle. If the plate is going to do what you describe, it would flex/slip in the v=drive long before it would slip in the angle clamps do to huge differance in surface area and the fact that the plate is infinitly weaker down the center of the plate. If this happens its a wonder we can keep greased gaskets sandwiched in there

[gn7]

This the way to make a V drive plate. Dont cut down the top of the plate.
Bottom line, by definition "bracing" it is stronger.
Again Tony makes way more sense, the bottom of the plate is thin enuff why does the top the plate need to be cut right to the case. My plate and GN24 both have enuff plate left on top to give us eye holes for lifting the boat on and off the trailer, and I have to believe it makes the plate less prone to flexing. bracing is great, but done incorrectly, could transfer boat twist,(and they all twist and flex) to the plate and makes matters worse, so I guess heims are must, for starters, but I gotta believe there needs to be more thought to it then just that.

[Jetboatguru]

Off topic but I have to give props to Roger Way on his billet V drive. Very nice piece.

[dmontzsta]

I don't want to get into all this bear drinking and pissing:D , but Art i do have one or two questions. That drive seems pretty far up under the dash. and looking at it where do you plan on mounting the loud pedal? Just curious. what the dimensions are to the transom and the theory behind the location(s).
I think it is the long deck he is working on.

[RiverDave]

NO! As to whether or not you could recognize it as a triangle. If the plate is going to do what you describe, it would flex/slip in the v=drive long before it would slip in the angle clamps do to huge differance in surface area and the fact that the plate is infinitly weaker down the center of the plate. If this happens its a wonder we can keep greased gaskets sandwiched in there
GN7, I'm not going to sit here and argue this point for the rest of my life. It is what it is, you don't have to believe what I wrote. Hell you can say it's full of shit if ya like. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter to me?
Run Braces or Don't run Braces? Again don't matter to me?
The answer to the Gasket, has already been gone over during the course of the thread. If the V-Drive is pushed forward .005 those plates might only slide .0002 etc.. And the angle incurred is going to be almost immeasurable it'd be so small. It's not gonna break the seal on the gaskets. In an exagerated situation it'd just apply a little more pressure on the outer most portions of the gaskets and a little less on the internal portion..
RD

[VDRIVERACING]

Alot of ground covered, and recovered...
What's left... OH! Did Oswald act alone???? :jawdrop:

[Rexone]

Again Tony makes way more sense, the bottom of the plate is thin enuff why does the top the plate need to be cut right to the case. My plate and GN24 both have enuff plate left on top to give us eye holes for lifting the boat on and off the trailer, and I have to believe it makes the plate less prone to flexing. bracing is great, but done incorrectly, could transfer boat twist,(and they all twist and flex) to the plate and makes matters worse, so I guess heims are must, for starters, but I gotta believe there needs to be more thought to it then just that.
I believe the reason many cut the plates down was for older boats where the vdrive sat between the seats (seat clearance). Also in some installs for more leg clearance to the throttle (vdrive further forward, long steering post, seat back). Other than those type of clearance issues there's really no reason to cut the plate down short. Other than to rile up RD.

[GofastRacer]

I don't want to get into all this bear drinking and pissing:D , but Art i do have one or two questions. That drive seems pretty far up under the dash. and looking at it where do you plan on mounting the loud pedal? Just curious. what the dimensions are to the transom and the theory behind the location(s).
Actually the v-drive is right under the dash and it is in the right place along with the strut, it's the deck it is 116" inches long and it is a problem, not sure where the throttle and pedals will go yet, I'll figure something out when I get the motor in and how much room there is, just can't see having that stuff under the deck!..

[Mr. V-Driver]

VDRIVERACING, The angled braces look good, although would be stronger if they weren't machined. Leave them solid, they tend to break when slots or holes are drilled in them for looks or lightening. (Art, AKA gofast racer), has it good his way too. It all really depends on HOW much HorsePower you plan on putting into the situation given.
Here's a few more pics of fuller cut plates.
GoodLuck on Project!!!

[GofastRacer]

This is actually the best way to do it, but unfortunately sometimes space prohibits it!...
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28143&d=1175834626

[FlatStupid]

This is actually the best way to do it, but unfortunately sometimes space prohibits it!...
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28143&d=1175834626Sorry Art I am not picking up the location on that checkered floor!. I will call Chuck I am sure he will know the distance

[Larry Nebb]

This is actually the best way to do it, but unfortunately sometimes space prohibits it!...
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28143&d=1175834626
What are the 4 big bolts for?
:devil:

[lilrick]

What are the 4 big bolts for?
:devil:
A four link system!!!::D

[gn7]

yep, nothing plants the back tires like a four link, not even ladder bars, and infinitely more adjustable:D

[lilrick]

yep, nothing plants the back tires like a four link, not even ladder bars, and infinitely more adjustable:D
oh yah...I didn't even think of it like that.

[Mr. V-Driver]

A four link system!!!::D
Rightio!!! :)
The 4 bolts hold brackets that join a four link system to plate and stringer mounts.

[Rexone]

:d
The End :d
Dreamer.
I actually thought RD would get at least another weeks work tied up in this one. :D

[V-DRIVE VIDEO]

Dreamer.
I actually thought RD would get at least another weeks work tied up in this one. :D Hold that thought Mike....:devil:
Hey Dave, where should the 4 link bars go? What is the very best spot to mount both on the stringers and the v-drive and what size and type material is best. My Hondo has braces but its far from an adjustable 4 link set up. Also, wouldn't it be best to attach everything to full length stringer rails to better distribute the "pull from the push" of the propeller.:)
http://www.v-drivevideo.com/jerrysgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Dailey%20Dub%20005.jpg

[RiverDave]

Hold that thought Mike....:devil:
Hey Dave, where should the 4 link bars go? What is the very best spot to mount both on the stringers and the v-drive and what size and type material is best. My Hondo has braces but its far from an adjustable 4 link set up. Also, wouldn't it be best to attach everything to full length stringer rails to better distribute the "pull from the push" of the propeller.:)
http://www.v-drivevideo.com/jerrysgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Dailey%20Dub%20005.jpg
Hey Jerry, I'm not the V-Drive god... I just stated that one setup was more rigid then the other.
If your genuinely interested in the answers to your questions, bring me the boat and drop it off for 2 weeks. When you pick it up 2 weeks later it'll be done and you won't need to know the answers to those questions becuase I'll have already done the RESEARCH and talked to the guru's about it for ya. ;) I... Unlike some people though, would actually take the time to talk to the experts about it, in both the marine field, as well as mechanical engineering (since I have access to it anyways) guru's and form a basis after that. I wouldn't just take a look at someone elses rig and say "well I'm gonna do that" becuase that...
A. Lacks of originallity
B. Who knows if the 1st guy did it right?
but lets just say I did just copy someone elses setup that works arguments sake.. If someone came along and said "This setup it better becuase of this, this and this" I certainly wouldn't act like a little bitch about it.
That answer your underlying question?
RD

[V-DRIVE VIDEO]

Hey Jerry, I'm not the V-Drive god... I just stated that one setup was more rigid then the other.
If your genuinely interested in the answers to your questions, bring me the boat and drop it off for 2 weeks. When you pick it up 2 weeks later it'll be done and you won't need to know the answers to those questions becuase I'll have already done the RESEARCH and talked to the guru's about it for ya. ;) I... Unlike some people though, would actually take the time to talk to the experts about it, in both the marine field, as well as mechanical engineering (since I have access to it anyways) guru's and form a basis after that. I wouldn't just take a look at someone elses rig and say "well I'm gonna do that" becuase that...
A. Lacks of originallity
B. Who knows if the 1st guy did it right?
but lets just say I did just copy someone elses setup that works arguments sake.. If someone came along and said "This setup it better becuase of this, this and this" I certainly wouldn't act like a little bitch about it.
That answer your underlying question?
RD
Can you go ahead and just do the research and share it with everyone that way we can get another week or so out of this thread.:D
All kidding aside, I think a lot of people just throw things together because it really doesn't need to be rocket science. We have more issues keeping engines together than v-drives busting loose or breaking their mounts. When it comes to the track and those who are pushing limits, I think you'll find some applied R & D on many set ups.

[RiverDave]

Hold that thought Mike....:devil:
Hey Dave, where should the 4 link bars go? What is the very best spot to mount both on the stringers and the v-drive and what size and type material is best. My Hondo has braces but its far from an adjustable 4 link set up. Also, wouldn't it be best to attach everything to full length stringer rails to better distribute the "pull from the push" of the propeller.:)
http://www.v-drivevideo.com/jerrysgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Dailey%20Dub%20005.jpg
Ah fock it.... I'll take a stab at answering the questions anyways..
If I had to "GUESS"
Hey Dave, where should the 4 link bars go?
I'd unbolt your braces that you have right now, and re-use your exising holes (just becuase they are already there) to mount up to sandwich'd blocks with recesses in them for the Heim Joints. In an ideal situation the closer to the edge of the V-Drive casing the better.
Let me even throw ya one better for Roger Way and Prime marine etc.. How about a billet casing with an area to attach the heims right to the case itself?
As far as where to mount the mating heims on the stringers.. Logic would dictate that the more parrallel the rods are to the force being applied the more effective they would be in keeping things still. That being said the further back on the stringers the better... (In theory) In reality again though your going to come up with some magic angle that once you go past the rods will overcome the force being exerted. Hard to explain in text.. but basically what I'm saying is a rod that is attached to the V-Drive center plate and again to the stringer parrallel to the plate isn't going to do much for ya.. The further back it goes, the more angle your getting, the more angle your getting the closer you are getting to being parrallel with the force pushing on the center plate. At some point past 45 degrees it'll get to the point that enough is enough and it ain't going anywhere anyways.
Me not knowing jack shit about V-Drives, I would say that the ideal position for said heim joints to keep the V-Drive still from loads being put on them by the prop shaft would be (this will throw ya for a loop) The bottom set to be placed near the bottom of the plate and to follow a similar angle of attack as the prop shaft down to a mounting point on the stringer. The Top set I would probably mount parrallel to the stringers and have them attach to a point directly above the bottom set and I'd tie them all together via some large extruded peaces. Same extruded peaces everyone else uses to tie everything together from the motor plates etc.. on forward.
On a side note we'll say I didn't have access to CAD etc... I would probably make a jig and put a load on my plate to see if it moves.. The load is going to be pushing the center plate forward, but at the same time it's at an angle so it wouldn't surprise me to see if slightly twisting that center plate. If it was in fact twisting it then the top heims could be in "compression" and not nearly as effective as they are in tensile. That being said if it DID MOVE I would seriously consider sticking a 2nd set of heims forward of the V-Drive on top of the stringers so that if things started twisting it would then quickly take up the slack and put those heims in tensile...
But that's just me, off the top of my head.
RD

[RiverDave]

Can you go ahead and just do the research and share it with everyone that way we can get another week or so out of this thread.:D
All kidding aside, I think a lot of people just throw things together because it really doesn't need to be rocket science. We have more issues keeping engines together than v-drives busting loose or breaking their mounts. When it comes to the track and those who are pushing limits, I think you'll find some applied R & D on many set ups.
If and when I start building my V-Drive Jerry I will be talking to those in the know, as well as modelling just about EVERYTHING in CAD and running FEA on it, and as always I will always share anything I learn with the group if asked. If someone says they have a better way, then I'm always open to suggestions, and if it does turn out to be ridiculously better then what I came up with, then odds are I would scrap what I built and rebuild it following the newer information gained. For me to remachine everything though is free for me.. Just a couple of nights in the shop doing what I love to do. If that wasn't the case then I'd probably call it good if it works..
RD

[RiverDave]

:D Damn RD, good thing the girlies cruiser don't have a v-drive !! so much drama for such a small question, "struts or no struts", "braces", " no braces", so many decisions ??
But I still like how Schiada does thiers !!!:D
Good thing indeed.. ;) I will be doing somethings to girly's cruiser though that shares some of the principals of a V-Drive, and when that gets all said n done I'll bet ya like what you see. ;)
RD

[MAXIMUS]

Dave thank you for your input! I think it is good for a lot of people to read all that is written here. If they are smart then they will pick up on a little something or they may already understand a lot of this shit. Common sense comes to mind...
The tripple plates are great if they work for you.
Hey Jerry if they have been doing it like that for all these years then by all means... Don't change it! Don't find a better way! And by all means.....DON'T ****ING QUESTION IT! LOL
Art I expected you to be a little more savy here...:notam:

[superdave013]

I don't know if a 4 bar would do much good on Jerry's boat. The seats are in the way and the plate is already all cut out (for room for the seats).
So just for good measure I'd "e speculate" :D that you might want to do it Prime style for some added support.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/48v_drive_bracing-med.JPG
Now would we all agree here that if this had some big billy bad boy four bar braces on the back side this unit would not be moving?? (unless the stringers that it's attached to flex)

[dmontzsta]

Dave thank you for your input! I think it is good for a lot of people to read all that is written here. If they are smart then they will pick up on a little something or they may already understand a lot of this shit. Common sense comes to mind...
The tripple plates are great if they work for you.
Hey Jerry if they have been doing it like that for all these years then by all means... Don't change it! Don't find a better way! And by all means.....DON'T ****ING QUESTION IT! LOL
Art I expected you to be a little more savy here...:notam:
What a dick!:rolleyes:

[Spotondl]

I don't know if a 4 bar would do much good on Jerry's boat. The seats are in the way and the plate is already all cut out (for room for the seats).
So just for good measure I'd "e speculate" :D that you might want to do it Prime style for some added support.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/48v_drive_bracing-med.JPG
Now would we all agree here that if this had some big billy bad boy four bar braces on the back side this unit would not be moving?? (unless the stringers that it's attached to flex)
If the force of the prop/prop shaft are not almost exactly in-line with this braces wouldn't that whole case/plate assembly be susceptable to an adverse yawing moment? Trick setup there but I still think spreading the load out is better.... my .02 on that setup...

[RiverDave]

If the force of the prop/prop shaft are not almost exactly in-line with this braces wouldn't that whole case/plate assembly be susceptable to yawing? Trick setup there but I still think spreading the load out is better.... my .02 on that setup...
They could make them line/line very easily becuase those caps are on those planes.
I think that I'd be more concerned about the supports being in compression then in tension. Bars bend fairly easily in compression and just spring back to shape. In tension they are ridiuclously stronger, becuase once you pull it, that's it... Shit just stops until you overcome the tensile strength of the weakest link in the program.
As Dave has pointed out though, sometimes you just don't have enough room, and something is better then nothing right?
Dave, a 4 link on the front side would help, but If you really put a load on it, it wouldn't hold up nearly as well as the same setup in tension. However though without knowing if the plate is moving straight forward, or actually twisting who knows? That top bar might already be in tension, which if that's the case that setup might work pretty well.
I dunno..
I would think if you could run just 2 heim joints parrallel to the prop shaft and have them attach to the plate at the same height, axis, etc.. as the prop shaft and then secured them on either side of the prop shaft in a parallel fashion where it begins to go through the hull, that the center plate wouldn't ever move from the prop shaft pushing on it. Just so long as everything is exactly on the same plane, then the heim joints would be in perfect tension.
RD

[V-DRIVE VIDEO]

Hey Jerry if they have been doing it like that for all these years then by all means... Don't change it! Don't find a better way! And by all means.....DON'T ****ING QUESTION IT! LOL
Listen up clingon!, If you want to suck river daves ass be my guest.... oh thats right, you "literally" run 1959 technology.:)
no offense RD, I'm just defending myself.:cool:

[superdave013]

They could make them line/line very easily becuase those caps are on those planes.
I think that I'd be more concerned about the supports being in compression then in tension. Bars bend fairly easily in compression and just spring back to shape. In tension they are ridiuclously stronger, becuase once you pull it, that's it... Shit just stops until you overcome the tensile strength of the weakest link in the program.
As Dave has pointed out though, sometimes you just don't have enough room, and something is better then nothing right?
Dave, a 4 link on the front side would help, but If you really put a load on it, it wouldn't hold up nearly as well as the same setup in tension. However though without knowing if the plate is moving straight forward, or actually twisting who knows? That top bar might already be in tension, which if that's the case that setup might work pretty well.
I dunno..
I would think if you could run just 2 heim joints parrallel to the prop shaft and have them attach to the plate at the same height, axis, etc.. as the prop shaft and then secured them on either side of the prop shaft in a parallel fashion where it begins to go through the hull, that the center plate wouldn't ever move from the prop shaft pushing on it. Just so long as everything is exactly on the same plane, then the heim joints would be in perfect tension.
RD
fish on! :D :)

[MAXIMUS]

Listen up clingon!, If you want to suck river daves ass be my guest.... oh thats right, you "literally" run 1959 technology.:)
no offense RD, I'm just playing with myself.:cool:
FAG!:eek:

[V-DRIVE VIDEO]

FAG!:eek:
oh no a misquote, how original.:sleeping:

[VDRIVERACING]

Getting ready to put the motor back in for Parker, and checked out my vdrive plate. It's cut down for leg clearance, but still looks like enough meat to mount a bracket. It wouldn't have the spread from top to bottom on the plate I would prefer, but after reading all this "information" I think the most pressure would be at the bottom of the plate as the prop shaft tries to push on the Vdrive.
I calculated that a 62.5764 degree angle from the edge of the vdrive case to the stringer would provided maximum torsion and load benefits on 3/4" 6061 round stock. This measurement is based at sea level, with a bull**** factor of 100.
Now, on to parabolic strakes...

[FlatStupid]

This is the best!!!! Game on again!!!:D :D :D

[onemoretimeracing]

i had our vdrive plate bend from the driveline pushing it forward it ended up pulling the propshaft with it and poping the prop off it's taper

[RiverDave]

Getting ready to put the motor back in for Parker, and checked out my vdrive plate. It's cut down for leg clearance, but still looks like enough meat to mount a bracket. It wouldn't have the spread from top to bottom on the plate I would prefer, but after reading all this "information" I think the most pressure would be at the bottom of the plate as the prop shaft tries to push on the Vdrive.
I calculated that a 62.5764 degree angle from the edge of the vdrive case to the stringer would provided maximum torsion and load benefits on 3/4" 6061 round stock. This measurement is based at sea level, with a bull**** factor of 100.
Now, on to parabolic strakes...
:D You had me at hello.. ;)
RD

[superdave013]

Getting ready to put the motor back in for Parker, and checked out my vdrive plate. It's cut down for leg clearance, but still looks like enough meat to mount a bracket. It wouldn't have the spread from top to bottom on the plate I would prefer, but after reading all this "information" I think the most pressure would be at the bottom of the plate as the prop shaft tries to push on the Vdrive.
I calculated that a 62.5764 degree angle from the edge of the vdrive case to the stringer would provided maximum torsion and load benefits on 3/4" 6061 round stock. This measurement is based at sea level, with a bull**** factor of 100.
Now, on to parabolic strakes...
lol, that's pretty good man. :)
Hey, what about putting 2 rods down low on the plate and the other 2 could catch the case bolts up higher? I bet if you caught the top two bolts and ran 2 rods back to the bell housing that would tie it in pretty good.
Hey RD, could you run that idea past "Young James"?? :D

[RiverDave]

lol, that's pretty good man. :)
Hey, what about putting 2 rods down low on the plate and the other 2 could catch the case bolts up higher? I bet if you caught the top two bolts and ran 2 rods back to the bell housing that would tie it in pretty good.
Hey RD, could you run that idea past "Young James"?? :D
I certainly could Dave.. Do you want the actual "calcs" as you put it or would you rather see the renderings with the color scale? :D
RD

[superdave013]

I was ALWAYS required to provide the calcs so lets just keep it at that.
This is like first year Physics so no need to get to fancy. lol
fish on

[RiverDave]

Ya know Dave.... I'm kinda sitting here wondering if something happened to Young James. He was down here working on a bicycle for his neighbors kid an hour or two ago..
I showed up at my shop, all the lights are on... door is unlocked? His car is kind of out in the middle of the parking lot next to the side of the shop (not in a space) and unlocked. His sweatshirt and some personal effects are here, the part he was polishing on the bike is in the bathroom sink?
Looks like was just here and walked outside for something, but never came back? I've been here for an hour and a half now and no James, and he doesn't answer his phone?
Kinda spooky...
RD

[VDRIVERACING]

This is a pic of my old C500 with top struts that went to the stringers. I thought it put too much stress on the case, but that 500 is pretty beefy.
Ya know, the idea of a bracket on the plate about the same height as the prop shaft with rods to the stringer, then below pictured rods from the top of the case back to the stringers...
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28379&stc=1&d=1176179270

[superdave013]

Ya know Dave.... I'm kinda sitting here wondering if something happened to Young James. He was down here working on a bicycle for his neighbors kid an hour or two ago..
I showed up at my shop, all the lights are on... door is unlocked? His car is kind of out in the middle of the parking lot next to the side of the shop (not in a space) and unlocked. His sweatshirt and some personal effects are here, the part he was polishing on the bike is in the bathroom sink?
Looks like was just here and walked outside for something, but never came back? I've been here for an hour and a half now and no James, and he doesn't answer his phone?
Kinda spooky...
RD
Wow, hope he is ok. You know what they say?
The only thing more dangerous then a thug with a gun is an engineer using power tools.
Hey VDR, I like that myself. One of the better looking C500 set ups right there.

[h2oski2fast]

Ya know Dave.... I'm kinda sitting here wondering if something happened to Young James. He was down here working on a bicycle for his neighbors kid an hour or two ago..
I showed up at my shop, all the lights are on... door is unlocked? His car is kind of out in the middle of the parking lot next to the side of the shop (not in a space) and unlocked. His sweatshirt and some personal effects are here, the part he was polishing on the bike is in the bathroom sink?
Looks like was just here and walked outside for something, but never came back? I've been here for an hour and a half now and no James, and he doesn't answer his phone?
Kinda spooky...
RD
Good, while you're waiting around, box my parts and send them to me. :D Actually, I'll be at the Ettinger's this weekend...... So, bring them with you.
D

[RiverDave]

Never got a chance to pull those two yellows outta Stacy's trailer.. I have all the rest of the stuff in my Truck already in a box ready to go. I'll have everything with me this weekend.
Dave, James never came back? Kinda trippin me out.. :confused:
I walked around the building once, looked in his car, looked in the trunk of his car (that was kinda eerie). Fock if I know? Looks like he was here, and he just walked out and left all his shit here? Wouldn't be that weird if the part he was working on wasn't just randomly left in the bathroom sink? The whole thing has me kinda weirded out, so I got Neva doing her routines, and a firearm on the toolbox.
RD

[h2oski2fast]

Never got a chance to pull those two yellows outta Stacy's trailer.. I have all the rest of the stuff in my Truck already in a box ready to go. I'll have everything with me this weekend.
Dave, James never came back? Kinda trippin me out.. :confused:
I walked around the building once, looked in his car, looked in the trunk of his car (that was kinda eerie). Fock if I know? Looks like he was here, and he just walked out and left all his shit here? Wouldn't be that weird if the part he was working on wasn't just randomly left in the bathroom sink? The whole thing has me kinda weirded out, so I got Neva doing her routines, and a firearm on the toolbox.
RD
That does seem a bit odd.

[MAXIMUS]

Getting ready to put the motor back in for Parker, and checked out my vdrive plate. It's cut down for leg clearance, but still looks like enough meat to mount a bracket. It wouldn't have the spread from top to bottom on the plate I would prefer, but after reading all this "information" I think the most pressure would be at the bottom of the plate as the prop shaft tries to push on the Vdrive.
I calculated that a 62.5764 degree angle from the edge of the vdrive case to the stringer would provided maximum torsion and load benefits on 3/4" 6061 round stock. This measurement is based at sea level, with a bull**** factor of 100.
Now, on to parabolic strakes...
ALL RIGHT! You have finally lost the tie & learned to loosen up a bit! I like it!:crossx: The real "ART" no punt intended to the forums is to be able to mix usefull info with a dash of bull shiat & a hint of gay/lesbian fictional material... Now you may continue !:)

[MAXIMUS]

By the way... where is ART???:notam: I wanted to discuss structual integrity of a PB&J using only 2 slices of bread, not 3...:D I believe if you step up & use the 7 grain orowheat bread there is a weight savings & a cross grain advantage to the sheer strenght. RD the door is open & the light is on! GO!:D

[wsuwrhr]

I have an 1-1/2 plate here of 7075 about the same size as a dual carb tunnel ram top. Should be close to the right size.
1/2 plate should be cheap Dave, you represent ballers everywhere, you don't have enough plate laying around?
I have enough material to donate. SHEETS of 1/2, 3/8 1/4 plate. I am not scared.
Brian
I'll tell ya what for the naysayers... If you guys really want to debate this shiznit we'll make a bet. I'll you 200 bucks (about the cost of materials) that I can take 3 sheets of aluminum, bolt them together in the same fashion using the same bolts and crank the shit out of them all day long.. I'll support those 3 plates on 2 1,2,3 blocks roughly 18 - 20 inches apart.
I will stick them in a hydraulic press with a Dial Indicator mounted to it..
I will put about 4 thousand pounds on it, and take a reading of how much it moved.
I will then rig the same setup with one solid block the same thickness and mount it in the same way. I'll bet that the solid block will bend less then the 3 stacked together.
We'll put the "E-Speculation" to the test..
Any takers Unchained?
I'll also bet (for a little more money) that if I rig up a 4 link system like the ones shown here, that I'll probably break my press before I get that focker to move a measurable amount.
This shit isn't theories... It's common sense.
I'm not trying to Cap on Art's setup, but to claim it's just as rigid as a 4 link setup is just plain wrong. His setup might work fine for what he has in the boat (how do I know?) but it is NOT as rigid as the 4 link, and I'll claim (through educated speculation sir Dave ;) ) that it will NOT live up to the claim that 3 stacked together with nothing to prevent lateral movement will be just as strong as a solid plate.
I'll order the materials over the weekend just to finally put this thing to rest..
RD

[wsuwrhr]

Old Bridges(and old Buildings) are made to flex you dork.
:D :D
In this corner we have Mr. “E-Speculation” Dave weighing in at 220 pounds skinny arms and all and his trainer "young James".
And in this corner we have Mr. "Go Last" Racer weighing in at 145 soaking wet complete with Chuck Norris v drive mounting skills!
Ding Ding Ding
:D :D :D
But really Dave, CAD and FEA?? They had that kind of stuff figured out just a tad before CAD came around. lol Go look at how an old bridge is bolted together.

[wsuwrhr]

Do you EVER miss an opportunity to SPAM your shit?
You are killin me.
Brian
Now that everyone got to show thier Billet Cases.........................
Here's the latest from the Innovater................
CASALE ENGINEERING............KING OF THE V-DRIVES!!!
As far as plate Flex,......use 1/2 " plate, braces, and angled brackets on the stringers and should be NO problems.

[GofastRacer]

By the way... where is ART???:notam: I wanted to discuss structual integrity of a PB&J using only 2 slices of bread, not 3...:D I believe if you step up & use the 7 grain orowheat bread there is a weight savings & a cross grain advantage to the sheer strenght. RD the door is open & the light is on! GO!:D
Good call on the cross grain, but there may be an issue between the creamy and the chunky, I do believe they flow in opposite directions so one may have to consider the grain direction, maybe that's where the third slice would be helpful, opposite grain direction in the middle one and you could use a creamy on one side and a chunky on the other side, things should hold together pretty good that way I would think??, as far as the J goes it goes any way it wants so that wouldn't be a problem!..:D :D

[wsuwrhr]

BTW. Keep in mind that all this shiz is bolted down tight to WOOD bonded to FIBERGLASS. Now that is rigid.
To be a truely rigid to what is REALLY important, braces, rods or whatever should be mounted in a trianglated fashion attached to the motor, which should also be attached to the strut, forming somewhat of a chassis.
Billy B's hotrod has some hellion braces attached to the rear motorplate that are attached to the strut.
Brian

[superdave013]

Old Bridges(and old Buildings) are made to flex you dork.
of course they do. And it was all figured out by a guy with a pencil and a slide rule. No CAD and no FEA.
That was my point you dork. ;)

[superdave013]

I have an 1-1/2 plate here of 7075 about the same size as a dual carb tunnel ram top. Should be close to the right size.
1/2 plate should be cheap Dave, you represent ballers everywhere, you don't have enough plate laying around?
I have enough material to donate. SHEETS of 1/2, 3/8 1/4 plate. I am not scared.
Brian
Why waste the material when a first year physics class will give you all the info you need??
All that stuff is also in the Machinery Handbook and I know you have a copy of that.

[Unchained]

I'll tell ya what for the naysayers... If you guys really want to debate this shiznit we'll make a bet. I'll you 200 bucks (about the cost of materials) that I can take 3 sheets of aluminum, bolt them together in the same fashion using the same bolts and crank the shit out of them all day long.. I'll support those 3 plates on 2 1,2,3 blocks roughly 18 - 20 inches apart.
I will stick them in a hydraulic press with a Dial Indicator mounted to it..
I will put about 4 thousand pounds on it, and take a reading of how much it moved.
I will then rig the same setup with one solid block the same thickness and mount it in the same way. I'll bet that the solid block will bend less then the 3 stacked together.
We'll put the "E-Speculation" to the test.. Any takers Unchained?
I'll also bet (for a little more money) that if I rig up a 4 link system like the ones shown here, that I'll probably break my press before I get that focker to move a measurable amount.
This shit isn't theories... It's common sense.
I'm not trying to Cap on Art's setup, but to claim it's just as rigid as a 4 link setup is just plain wrong. His setup might work fine for what he has in the boat (how do I know?) but it is NOT as rigid as the 4 link, and I'll claim (through educated speculation sir Dave ;) ) that it will NOT live up to the claim that 3 stacked together with nothing to prevent lateral movement will be just as strong as a solid plate.
I'll order the materials over the weekend just to finally put this thing to rest..
RD
Well, I don't know what a "shiznit" is, so I can't comment on that one.
I don't have one of those on my boat. :rolleyes:
As far as the solid plate being stiffer than the three plates stacked up.....That's not what you stated back when this started, you stated that the three plates would always be sliding against each other, I disagree on that point. It is possible to get enough clamping force between those plates to not have any sliding at all, even with clearance holes. It may take larger bolts to accomplish it but it could be done.
We build overhead cranes and the girder connections are held by the friction between the mounting plates of the girder and the endtruck. Even though it is a shear connection the bolts are not under shear because of the degree of torque on the bolts. 410 ft lbs x 8 bolts does a 10 ton girder connection.
http://emh-inc.com/et_main-cnnctn.htm
As far as the bet goes, I could put a dial indicator between the connection plates and put a 10 ton load on the crane. This connection has been used successfully for many years with no failures to my knowledge.
Again, I'm only commenting on the mounting plates sliding against each other. No matter what kind of gearbox mount someone has, and however strong it is, somewhere it still has to bolt to a very flexible fiberglass hull.

[RiverDave]

I have an 1-1/2 plate here of 7075 about the same size as a dual carb tunnel ram top. Should be close to the right size.
1/2 plate should be cheap Dave, you represent ballers everywhere, you don't have enough plate laying around?
I have enough material to donate. SHEETS of 1/2, 3/8 1/4 plate. I am not scared.
Brian
How do you figure I represent ballers everywhere? :D
Much to V-Drive Video's happiness, I don't own a set of Dubs.. On my Navi, or my chicks Exped.
Hell right now I gotta thumb rides on my chicks boat becuase I don't have one.
I can't even goto the river this weekend becuase I have to work..
I'm anti-pimpin at it's finest right now.. LOL
Incidentally I do have the materials in stock, but I figure if I'm gonna prove a point to some nimrod on the internet I should atleast get my material cost back.
My dog is costing me an arm and a leg..
RD <---Wish I was a little bit taller, wish I was a baller..

[RiverDave]

Well, I don't know what a "shiznit" is, so I can't comment on that one.
I don't have one of those on my boat. :rolleyes:
As far as the solid plate being stiffer than the three plates stacked up.....That's not what you stated back when this started, you stated that the three plates would always be sliding against each other, I disagree on that point. It is possible to get enough clamping force between those plates to not have any sliding at all, even with clearance holes. It may take larger bolts to accomplish it but it could be done.
We build overhead cranes and the girder connections are held by the friction between the mounting plates of the girder and the endtruck. Even though it is a shear connection the bolts are not under shear because of the degree of torque on the bolts. 410 ft lbs x 8 bolts does a 10 ton girder connection.
http://emh-inc.com/et_main-cnnctn.htm
As far as the bet goes, I could put a dial indicator between the connection plates and put a 10 ton load on the crane. This connection has been used successfully for many years with no failures to my knowledge.
Again, I'm only commenting on the mounting plates sliding against each other. No matter what kind of gearbox mount someone has, and however strong it is, somewhere it still has to bolt to a very flexible fiberglass hull.
Unchained, it was never a question of whether the joint would fail or not, it was a question of whether it would flex or not, and if in fact it was as rigid as a 4 link.
RD