berkeley jet rebuild

[Amm]

I am looking for information on what to expect out of a rebuild and any tips.
I have a 1977 23 ft daycruiser with a 460 and Berkeley 12-JC. I bought the boat used 2 years ago and have been pleased with it.
I got underneath the boat and shined a flashlight on the impeller and noticed it was very dull and nicked(completely rounded leading edges of the blade with large dings). After doing a little research I decided I should rebuild it.
I followed the videos on berkeleyjet.com and was able to remove the pump easily. I followed http://www.americanturbine.com/downloads/pdf/oh_manuals/berk_oh_manual.pdf on how to disassemble the pump. I ordered a rebuild kit with impeller from cpperformance and hopefully it arrives soon.
Now my questions.
- Will the new impeller and new wear ring make a noticeable difference in how the boat performs? A little different? A lot different? or Night and day difference?
- Should I have just tried to sharpen the blades instead of replacing the impeller?
Any feedback is welcome, or if this has already been answered, if you could point me in the right direction.
A later post...
Wow, I appreciate the feedback. Glad to hear a rebuilt pump can make a big difference.
I should have found this place before I started, but hindsight is always 20/20.
I have partially disassembled the pump and ordered the rebuild kit so I will(at least try to) finish it myself. I was a small engine mechanic in my youth so I know a little bit. Wish I was near my dad's machine shop at this point.
The rebuild kit contains a new impeller nut and a new impeller, so if all else fails I can cut them off very carefully with a hand held grinder.
I am still trying to figure out how to do the bearings without a press. I think I am going to have to find a friend at the local machine shop or go without replacing the bearings.
An even later post...
I got the impeller nut off and the impeller. Pretty trick way actually.
For the nut:
-14inch pipe wrench on the shaft through the hand hole
-24inch pipe wrench on the nut.
-plastic deadblow in right hand
-position the pump on its side
-put your left foot on the 14 inch wrench
-with left hand and weight apply a lot of torque on the 24inch pipe wrench
-hit the 24 inch pipe wrench with the deadblow that is in your right hand.
-pray you don't crack the housing
The nut came right off after a few blows.
For the impeller:
-Pretend the impeller is off while following the directions here http://www.americanturbine.com/downloads/pdf/oh_manuals/berk_oh_manual.pdf to remove the shaft
-wd40 on the shaft everywhere, let is soak a while
-more wd40
-heat the impeller around the shaft.
-more wd40
-hit the shaft with a dead blow many times
-you can judge your progress by the bearing coming out the other end
Here are some pictures of the impeller.
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t470051_full.JPG (http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i470051_full.JPG)
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t470023_closesup.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i470023_closesup.jpg)
Seems fairly worn out. Did I make the right call?
Here is the shaft at the packing rings.
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t470024_atpackingrings.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i470024_atpackingrings.jpg)
This is the only spot that shows any damage/wear. Its enough wear to cause me some concern, but with 5 packing rings I am guessing it should be OK.
Cave, that picture has convinced me to replace all the bearings. That thrust bearing is a decent sized bearing.

[TahitiTiger]

I too want to freshin my pump up this winter. Although my impeller is in good shape. Only thing I recall is that there are some special tools needed, and that you have to set some clearances that are critical. Let me know how it goes :) I am bouncing from rebuild it myself, or pull the pump out, and ship it to JBP and let them rebuild it.

[Coded-Dude]

CPP rebuilds em too I'm pretty sure.(at bout that same cost difference of buying an impeller puller and doing it yourself)
I have not rebuitl one yet, but will be getting mine done very soon as well.
Debating on doing it myself or just sending it in.

[victorfb]

from what you describe, it sounds like you should definatly do a COMPLETE rebuild. meaning new impeller, bearings, seals and gaskets. the tools can be purchaced as a kit but are expensive. the knowhow is mostly learned but if you have someone to walk you through it that has knowlegde of rebuilding them, you should be ok. they are not that difficult. there a few tricks you need to know. cutting the old wear ring out SLOWLY to not cut into the pump housing, freeze the new wear ring for a couple hours before trying to install. use the old impeller on the shaft to help guide and install the new wear ring. but hone the old impeller (were the shaft goes through)so it doesnt stick on the shaft again. (this will be a tool from that point on). checking and recording clearances, ect, ect, ect. it sounds like the pump has had quite a few years of use and should be inspected by someone who knows what to look for. the wear on the shaft (if any) can sometimes be repaired. i for one think its a cool learning experience and as long as your not building a race set up im sure you would be fine as long as you have some mechanical ability and patience to learn and study as you go. in most cases a freshened pump with be very noticable. you hadnt mentioned what RPMs you were spinning but with the new pump they will most likey lower, but the pump with be working more efficient. kind of like a worn clutch in a car. the overall gain should be very noticeable, especially with the description of the chipped and banged up impeller you have now, the new one will make a big differance. and no, do not try and sharpen the old impeller. they can be cut to a smaller size and reworked by someone who knows what they are doing, but you will be much better off installing a new impeller.

[brad22]

Yeah, for $700 CP Performance will rebuild the whole pump for you if you dont want to do it yourself. Pretty good deal if you have a stubborn pump with no special tools. They also have videos, overhaul manuals and other info on their website if you havent already seen it. www.cpperformance.com/techtips (http://www.cpperformance.com/TechTips/bjd-manual.htm). Here are the tools (http://www.cpperformance.com/products/Jet-Drives/Berkeley/berkeley-tools.htm) too. Good Luck!!

[IMPATIENT 1]

you'll notice the difference!! a loose pump is a slow pump in most cases

[460 jus getn it]

I gained about 8 mph from a pump rebuild. So i would say yes, it will make a night and day difference.

[ck7684]

Anybody know anybody in Minnesota who rebuilds them?? Mine is a Berk "F" model so it needs to be rebuilt in the boat with the engine pulled. I am pulling the engine anyways but would like someone with experience to go through the pump...

[Amm]

Wow, I appreciate the feedback. Glad to hear a rebuilt pump can make a big difference.
I should have found this place before I started, but hindsight is always 20/20.
I have partially disassembled the pump and ordered the rebuild kit so I will(at least try to) finish it myself. I was a small engine mechanic in my youth so I know a little bit. Wish I was near my dad's machine shop at this point.
The rebuild kit contains a new impeller nut and a new impeller, so if all else fails I can cut them off very carefully with a hand held grinder.
I am still trying to figure out how to do the bearings without a press. I think I am going to have to find a friend at the local machine shop or go without replacing the bearings.

[smokinflatties]

thanks for posting that i been whating to do but not sure how now i will;)

[HalletDave]

Wow, I appreciate the feedback. Glad to hear a rebuilt pump can make a big difference.
I should have found this place before I started, but hindsight is always 20/20.
I have partially disassembled the pump and ordered the rebuild kit so I will(at least try to) finish it myself. I was a small engine mechanic in my youth so I know a little bit. Wish I was near my dad's machine shop at this point.
The rebuild kit contains a new impeller nut and a new impeller, so if all else fails I can cut them off very carefully with a hand held grinder.
I am still trying to figure out how to do the bearings without a press. I think I am going to have to find a friend at the local machine shop or go without replacing the bearings.
:idea:
Replace the bearings while you have it apart.
Put the pump back in with everything fresh.

[wolfie]

I gained about 8 mph from a pump rebuild. So i would say yes, it will make a night and day difference.
Did you finally get yours finished????

[Rondane]

CPP rebuilds em too I'm pretty sure.(at bout that same cost difference of buying an impeller puller and doing it yourself)
I have not rebuitl one yet, but will be getting mine done very soon as well.
Debating on doing it myself or just sending it in.
Be VERY careful having CP rebuild your pump. Make sure you check it thoroughly when you get it back. They have been known to sell full RACE pumps that cavitated so bad the guy needed everything new inside and out with no real explanation as to why "believe it...or not". I didnt believe it myself until a few of the experts confirmed it. Just wanted to let that be known.
Also get your kit with a shouldered wear ring instead of the flat stainless. Set the clearances easier with it for a tighter pump.
rondane

[pw_Tony]

Be VERY careful having CP rebuild your pump. Make sure you check it thoroughly when you get it back. They have been known to sell full RACE pumps that cavitated so bad the guy needed everything new inside and out with no real explanation as to why "believe it...or not". I didnt believe it myself until a few of the experts confirmed it. Just wanted to let that be known.
Also get your kit with a shouldered wear ring instead of the flat stainless. Set the clearances easier with it for a tighter pump.
rondane
If a shop half-assed a job and then in turn had failure on the boat, shouldn't the shop replace everything from liability?

[oldselmn8tr]

Replace the brg.,you will regret it if you don't. With old pump the engine would spin to 6100 rpm on the hit of the throttle after rebuild 5300 and steady with a huge diff. in the holeshot. CP is a quality outfit so I don't know about the comment above.:idea: Take your time and it will pay off in the end.:) As for a shop having liability usually only happens on moderate hp applications and they R&R the pump. Even then theres an abuse by the owner factor(running a pump dry for example) there are always many sides to a story,unfortunately you usually only hear one side.

[brad22]

Be VERY careful having CP rebuild your pump. Make sure you check it thoroughly when you get it back. I didnt believe it myself until a few of the experts confirmed it.
rondane
Very suprised to hear that. I have always heard nothing but good about CP pump rebuilds even race applications too. Like the post above, sounds like there might have been more to this story. If it was their fault im sure they would have rectified it anyways.... CP Performance and Berkeley Jet work hand in hand and I'm sure the worlds #1 jet drive company knows what they are doing. :D

[cave]

Change the bearing. All the new parts in that pump are going to add more stress to that old bearing causing it to fail. That would suck and cost you even more bux. This is what happens when the front bearing fails:mad:
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/7731impeller_1.jpg
I noticed the change when I freshened up mine. Timminator here in AZ & Duane where awesome with answering questions via PM's. It was easy. I only needed the bearing remover and the shaft it connects to.

[Rondane]

Very suprised to hear that. I have always heard nothing but good about CP pump rebuilds even race applications too. Like the post above, sounds like there might have been more to this story.
i thought the same thing.:confused: Seems after damage control was rectified by www.hitechperformance.com the guy was ecstatic about the results. From there the story got kinda...... "foggy"..........:rolleyes:
Guess he was "instructed" the "race" pump was junk and that he had to start from scratch.:eek:
rondane

[Placecraft Dragstar]

Guess he was "instructed" the "race" pump was junk and that he had to start from scratch.:eek:
rondane
I hear that happens from time to time with some shops, Thats why when we find out about them assclowns you need to tell people so someone else dont get there asshole real sore.

[UBFJ #454]

The web site address for Duane Oblander's Hi-Tech Performance (Jet Boat Shop) is:
Not [URL=]www.hitechperformance.com (]www.hi-techperformance.com[/URL) .

[Rondane]

CP is a very large company and they make alot of $$$$$ on high dollar parts like drives/props/big boat stuff. Do you honestly think that they really care about a low budget jetter?:idea: Sell em' and forget em'
maybe 396 can elaborate here? :D

[Amm]

I got the impeller nut off and the impeller. Pretty trick way actually.
For the nut:
-14inch pipe wrench on the shaft through the hand hole
-24inch pipe wrench on the nut.
-plastic deadblow in right hand
-position the pump on its side
-put your left foot on the 14 inch wrench
-with left hand and weight apply a lot of torque on the 24inch pipe wrench
-hit the 24 inch pipe wrench with the deadblow that is in your right hand.
-pray you don't crack the housing
The nut came right off after a few blows.
For the impeller:
-Pretend the impeller is off while following the directions here http://www.americanturbine.com/downloads/pdf/oh_manuals/berk_oh_manual.pdf to remove the shaft
-wd40 on the shaft everywhere, let is soak a while
-more wd40
-heat the impeller around the shaft.
-more wd40
-hit the shaft with a dead blow many times
-you can judge your progress by the bearing coming out the other end
Here are some pictures of the impeller.
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t470051_full.JPG (http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i470051_full.JPG)
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t470023_closesup.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i470023_closesup.jpg)
Seems fairly worn out. Did I make the right call?
Here is the shaft at the packing rings.
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t470024_atpackingrings.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i470024_atpackingrings.jpg)
This is the only spot that shows any damage/wear. Its enough wear to cause me some concern, but with 5 packing rings I am guessing it should be OK.
Cave, that picture has convinced me to replace all the bearings. That thrust bearing is a decent sized bearing.

[cave]

That was with a shouldered wear ring too. Glad my experience conviced you:D
Amm I've used CP, Rex Marine, Hitek, Tuff n Nuff and the Bergeron marine here in Mesa. All have been more than helpfull. Do a search on shops and then if you need a little help you can call or email whom you choose. 1st do the search. You will understand once you do this on who to trust and who not to trust...
Good luck!

[4604me]

rebuild it yourself it's easy. I used a big ass wrench with a cheater bar for the impeller nut, and a good three jaw puller on the impeller. also use a small hobby torch to heat the wear ring enough to warm the plastic seal around it and the wear ring will almost fall out by itself. take your shaft to a machine shop to have the thrust bearing removed, and press the new one on.(cheap). also inspect the bushing side of the shaft for wear, if its not to bad, run it.if it looks bad there is a fix.(machining and sleeve) i didnt have to do this on a 30 year old shaft. check your clearance at the wear ring and end of impeller through the inspection hole. I think .020 to .025 is a good number.use a long feeler guage. tighter is better but not to tight.you may have to shim the impeller out if its to tight. use antisieze on the impeller and shaft for the future,also put some antisieze or some kind of lube on wear ring surface and impeller where thay meet for the first start up. I used a deep socket to remove and replace the bushing bearings,after you are happy with every thing slap it all together and run it. then enjoy the fact you did it yourself.good luck steve

[jetboatperformance]

If you need help on your reassembly, feel free to give me a call Thanks Tom

[bp]

also, make sure the shaft is straight, or have a shop verify eccentricity, or those tight clearances won't stay tight for very long. :)

[Amm]

I appreciate everyones input so far.
Everything is as far as I can take it until my rebuild kit gets here and I find someone with a hydraulic press.
The clearance on the wear ring measures .042 total. Is this fairly worn or very worn? I have read .022 is factory. The wear ring also looks like a rotor where the brake pad wore down to metal on metal. This does not seem surprising judging by the amount of rocks and sand this pump must have gone through.

[cave]

Amm you may need this tool from Rex or anyone else's equivalent
The Shaft RJT6 and the RJT2 Bushing driver. The bowl has 2 Sleeve Bearings / Bushings that are a b!tch to get out without the proper tool. The kit from Rex Marine, CP and most others come with these Bushings. Don't pass these up. Install them if you get them with the kit.
http://shopping.rexmar.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/rjt-tools.jpg
This is easy. If you do get in a jam all these shops will help you out. Great guys on here for stuff like that.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

maybe 396 can elaborate here? :D
I luv it when you swing from my nuts;) Everythime you post you have to use 396 in it. Im glad your my personal biatch and cheerleader;)
_Spitter

[bead]

I recommend MPD in Costa Mesa, Ca.Very good work and is very honest with you, unlike some companys I have delt with ( intials between f & h and r & t ) but hay ,Im not one to talk sh!t about someone after they totaly screwed me. Call Jack at MPD he does very good work and is quick to get your pump back to you.

[Amm]

A huge thanks to everyone, it works. I was able to test it today and I didn't sink, catch fire, destroy the pump, or anything else. It worked great.
No more cavatation and the boat just pops right up onto a plane, even with my wife and 4 kids standing at the very rear of the boat.
I do not have a speedometer(I am guessing 45mph maybe 50), so I don't know my top end, but the major function of this boat is to tow my kids on a water weeny. I am turning a AAAA impeller at 4200 rpms, so I am pleased. My wife noticed that its faster, but she was mostly impressed with how much quieter it was. I had an A impeller before.
If anyone knows what the graph looks like for a AAAA impeller, I would like to know what horsepower I am getting out of my 460 with it turning a AAAA impeller 4200 rpms.
Again, a huge thanks to everyone.
PS, I think I have caught some sort of illness, I can't stop thinking about what it would be like with a blower.

[TahitiTiger]

PS, I think I have caught some sort of illness, I can't stop thinking about what it would be like with a blower.
I know this illness :D lucky for me they don't have blowers for 455s any more