Preventing Valvefloat

[Ryan00TJ]

I've been reading up alot on hyd roller cam profiles and valvefloat. I'm a little worried about my setup since I'm on the low end of recommened spring pressures.
355 SBC
AFR 190 heads
224/230 .537/.511 112LSA hyd roller
Morel vertical bar retrofit lifters
Smith Bros .083" 1 piece pushrods
Crane 1.6I and Lunati 1.52E widebody roller rockers
Manley Stainless I and Inconnel E valves 2.02, 1.60
PTV clearance I .246", E .229"
Isky #6105 dual w damper springs, 1.430" OD, 1.120" CB, 330lbs spring rate,
Seat 135lbs, Open 315lbs @ 1.260", 1.812" IH.
I'm breaking in the new drive so I have not had the motor WOT in the boat yet. On the dyno there was no float noticed but I feel under extended WOT runs on the water it might be different.
With the 23p it's gonna max out in the 5600-6000rpm range.
What do you guys think? Should I be allright or for saftey shim the spring pressure up?
Thanks for the help!

[Daytona100]

I've been reading up alot on hyd roller cam profiles and valvefloat. I'm a little worried about my setup since I'm on the low end of recommened spring pressures.
355 SBC
AFR 190 heads
224/230 .537/.511 112LSA hyd roller
Morel vertical bar retrofit lifters
Smith Bros .083" 1 piece pushrods
Crane 1.6I and Lunati 1.52E widebody roller rockers
Manley Stainless I and Inconnel E valves 2.02, 1.60
PTV clearance I .246", E .229"
Isky #6105 dual w damper springs, 1.430" OD, 1.120" CB, 330lbs spring rate,
Seat 135lbs, Open 315lbs @ 1.260", 1.812" IH.
I'm breaking in the new drive so I have not had the motor WOT in the boat yet. On the dyno there was no float noticed but I feel under extended WOT runs on the water it might be different.
With the 23p it's gonna max out in the 5600-6000rpm range.
What do you guys think? Should I be allright or for saftey shim the spring pressure up?
Thanks for the help!
What about running the new comp cams conical shaped springs and light retainers. Supposed to hold off valve float due to lighter weight and reasonable spring pressure.:idea:

[Machinist]

I use those same springs in hydraulic roller applications all the time, my only suggestion would be that with the heavy valves/ heavy morel lifters - shim the springs to 150 seat/330 open. That is a mild cam, and you shouldn't have any issue with even the pressures you are at right now, but for a boat application I always run the pressures on the high side. Make sure you check the spring pressures, and don't just go out of the book, I just re-freshed a set of heads with those springs today, and was at 135# @ 1.850" installed, 310# open @.530" - that was with 8k miles on the springs.

[cstraub]

Ryan,
I would shim them as stated to around 150# seat at least. No problem with the Morels taking that kind of load.

[Ryan00TJ]

Thanks guys for the help. Hopefully I'll get some time to shim them up this weekend since the recent storm still has the water messed up.

[cfm]

Many, many dyno tests with the newer Extreme Energy hyd rollers and of course the higher lift Comp Hr's are seeing valve float / lifter instability in the low to mid 5k range with Comp's recommended conventional springs. Sometimes even with the next step up spring.
Yah, it sucks, especially when the dyno doesn't show this, but it happens during extended rpm usage. Extended meaning more than the typical dyno or car few second rpm bursts.
Many (non boaters) that are being more succesful with this issue are using between 135-150 on seat and 350-375 or so over the nose. Problem I have with these is what does it do in extended rpm use like in a boat ? Will the lifters start to lose it ? I don't know. I do know they are working great in cars where they pass thru the rpms quickly.
It's funny you mention this spring thing because I've been head deep into it for the past 3-4 days. Keep getting different answers and unfortunately many answers must be wrong because I'll look at a dyno sheet with engine that used same springs that I'm told are 'more than fine' and the engine started losing it in low to mid 5's.
I know the beehives are pulling right thru with no problem (Comp#26918-16 keeps resurfacing as doing well) but will the typical person be willing to spend $180-$210 for springs, $60 or so for there required unique retainer, and then possibly another $30-$40 for the ID locators ?
Note: This is one of the big areas that AFR attacked with their new Eliminator heads. Lighter valves and a more modern light spring/retainer package. These add more rpm capability to HR cams and as we all know, added rpm can become a big boost in power. Especially when a 5600 or so motor falls on it's azz at 5000k. That was example.

[cfm]

I want to add also, many times going up in 1 rocker ratio point seems to lower the rpm point these valve spring/lifter rpm issues begin. I've seen this more on BBC's but also some SBC's.200-400rpm is not uncommon.
Most will say the bigger ratio adds more psi back to the lifter (which it does) and thus will actually add a few more rpm capability. I've seen the opposite and seen others run into the opposite way too much to believe it.
Although, as I mentioned before, these issues won't always show on the dyno, many times it DOES show. Another reason to hook onto one unless you 100% know otherwise.
Lastly - make sure you have a real good pushrod. .080" wall min.

[Ryan00TJ]

Many, many dyno tests with the newer Extreme Energy hyd rollers and of course the higher lift Comp Hr's are seeing valve float / lifter instability in the low to mid 5k range with Comp's recommended conventional springs. Sometimes even with the next step up spring.
Yah, it sucks, especially when the dyno doesn't show this, but it happens during extended rpm usage. Extended meaning more than the typical dyno or car few second rpm bursts.
Many (non boaters) that are being more succesful with this issue are using between 135-150 on seat and 350-375 or so over the nose. Problem I have with these is what does it do in extended rpm use like in a boat ? Will the lifters start to lose it ? I don't know. I do know they are working great in cars where they pass thru the rpms quickly.
It's funny you mention this spring thing because I've been head deep into it for the past 3-4 days. Keep getting different answers and unfortunately many answers must be wrong because I'll look at a dyno sheet with engine that used same springs that I'm told are 'more than fine' and the engine started losing it in low to mid 5's.
I know the beehives are pulling right thru with no problem (Comp#26918-16 keeps resurfacing as doing well) but will the typical person be willing to spend $180-$210 for springs, $60 or so for there required unique retainer, and then possibly another $30-$40 for the ID locators ?
Note: This is one of the big areas that AFR attacked with their new Eliminator heads. Lighter valves and a more modern light spring/retainer package. These add more rpm capability to HR cams and as we all know, added rpm can become a big boost in power. Especially when a 5600 or so motor falls on it's azz at 5000k. That was example.
I've got Smith Bro's .083" wall PR's do they should do the trick. I want this setup be reliable as I sometimes hold it WOT up to 5 mins at times. Far from the 11-12 sec runs at the dragstrip. I'm going to shim up the pressure and go from there. Those new AFR Eliminator's are sweet heads for sure. I contemplated getting a set for this build but I decided to refreshen the existing 190's.
I'm very familiar with the Comp 918's, I ran them on my LS1 a few years back. I eventually went with a larger bumpstick and stepped up to the Comp 921's. I love how rev friendly my LS1 is compared to the SBC. I'm running a pretty mild cam 224/224 .563/.561 112+4 with Stage II heads flow 298cfm @ .500 and it peaks at 6100rpms and holds flat to 6500rpms. Rev limit is at 6800rpms with no signs of float.

[Bahner tunnel]

I recently had my heads built to match my solid roller BBC jet boat combimnation and was told similar things about valve float and recomended springs.
I have a .710" lift cam and was recomended to run 200# seat and 550# open from the cam card. Brought the springs to the head shop and quickly was told to buy new springs. Ended up with the Isky 9945 gold stripes $$$. 1.625" , 2.020" installed,260# seat and 650# open. The thought was that my 35-4000 rpm cruise speed and much longer peak rpm (6200 max) hold when compared to a street motor set up meant heavier than planned spring pressures. BBC's have inheirenty (sp) heavy valve train which also doesn't help.

[Ryan00TJ]

Well I got all of them shimmed up yesterday and I just finished setting the preload and connecting everything back up. I forgot how much harder it is working in the boat. Building this engine on the stand spoiled me.
I bought a valvespring height checking tool along with shims and used my existing spec pressure checking gauge.
Springs have around 3 hours run time. They all were from 118-123lbs seat @ 1.830" IH average. I shimmed them all up to around 150lbs @ 1.725" IH average. Checked for coil bind at max lift, had about .090" clearance. Also, had plenty of retainer to valve stem seal clearance and rocker to retainer clearance.
Got everything buttoned back up and fired it up about an hour ago. Most of the lifters had bled down and it sounded like my old solid lifter for about a minute. They pumped back up and quieted down and everything seems good to go.
Hopefully the next weekend we'll be testing them out on the water.
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1728/boppercleanedreadytorocka3.th.jpg (http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=boppercleanedreadytorocka3.jpg)