Driveline guys, please read........

[1968Droptop]

As most of you know I'm building a blower motor (engine) for my Daytona. I've run into a bit of a snag. The driveline I have is way too long. It's the style with a color that bolts to my crank, with 2 u-joints that bolt together. The only style available now.
I need to find about 2" of room for the blower belt to work with my back seat. If I only use one one u-joint, I should have enough room for the blower belt. How well will this work ? I've heard of peeps only running one u-joint, and heard of peeps running NO u-joint. I really don't know how well just one u-joint will work ? I'm thinking if I make sure everything is lined up really close it'll work ???
P.S. I'm installing my Lightning rail kit, so now is the time to set it up right.

[DelawareDave]

It would be possible, IMO anyway, to run one U-joint. BUT- the shaft alignment between the engine and pump would have to be absolutely perfect, not almost perfect, not pretty darn close perfect, but perfect perfect. That would be very, very, very difficult to achieve.
Disclaimer: Take my opinion with a grain of salt, since I know absolutely nothing. :D

[Murray PE 857]

Another way, but expensive, solid driveshaft and Lenco couplers. Or put in a pump release and use Lenco couplers also. I'm just dieing to make you spend some more money. LOL. :)

[BrendellaJet]

Id talk to other Daytone owners. You are not the first to install a blower motor in one so Im sure others have come across this situation before...

[wsuwrhr]

IMHO,
Mechanically it will spell disaster eventually for the pump shaft, bearing, pump housing or the crankshaft.
On a V drive boat the solid shaft setup is pretty long, allowing for some flex in the shaft. A shaft for a jet would be so short that little flex would occur.
I don't think a single u-joint would work either, as it would only allow for single axis movement.
Everything important in a boat is bolted to two peices of wood bonded to a peice of fiberglass, hardly a rigid chassis. Shit does move around driving over unstable water. Any movement will cause a bind, and eventually the weakest part will give and ultimately fail.

[steelcomp]

All correct...a single u-joint will only act as a coupler, and will need to be perfect. Solid driveline (like a Lenco) that short is going to have iussues if it's not perfect. Like Brian said, even if perfect in a static environment, take it on the water and put blower power to it, and all that goes out the window.
My suggestion...move the engine forward and make it work. Move the seat, shorten your blower drive, do whatever it takes, but the double u-joint coupler you're describing is about the shortest driveline you're going to be able to use.

[CARLSON-JET]

Has the pump been moved back?.. Maybe just some mods to the bench are in order as previously noted.

[1968Droptop]

Yeah the pump is set back, but only an inch. My other option is to find the coupler I was hunting for earlier this month with no luck. The unit I'm looking for has the u-joint coupler and the flange that bolts right to the crank all in one piece. These units seem to be about 1.75" shorter than the two piece unit I currently have. That just might buy me enough room, MAYBE. But I haven't been able to find one. Thanks for the tips guys !

[wsuwrhr]

Yeah the pump is set back, but only an inch. My other option is to find the coupler I was hunting for earlier this month with no luck. The unit I'm looking for has the u-joint coupler and the flange that bolts right to the crank all in one piece. These units seem to be about 1.75" shorter than the two piece unit I currently have. That just might buy me enough room, MAYBE. But I haven't been able to find one. Thanks for the tips guys !
You could also cut down the PTO flange. The crank flange is usually a 1/2" or less in thickness, yet the PTO is 1" to 1-1/4 thick. You could cut off enough off the crank side (back side) maybe even 5/8 or so, shorten the bolts to match and away you go.
Any machine shop could do it for you.
If you want to send it all the way to me, I will trim it up and send it back.
Brian

[YeLLowBoaT]

what about runing a "donut" ( the old rubber donuts that stop shock from going thru out the drive train) they flex alot, not sure if you could find one that could take your HP.

[wsuwrhr]

Could you post a picture of your driveline you have now?
Yeah the pump is set back, but only an inch. My other option is to find the coupler I was hunting for earlier this month with no luck. The unit I'm looking for has the u-joint coupler and the flange that bolts right to the crank all in one piece. These units seem to be about 1.75" shorter than the two piece unit I currently have. That just might buy me enough room, MAYBE. But I haven't been able to find one. Thanks for the tips guys !

[Rexone]

The short drivelines you speak of are no longer made (Rockwell), be tough to find one that isn't thrashed.
I wouldn't advise thinning a PTO either. They are made out of cheap steel and bolts are counterbored to fit flush. Any thinning will affect the strength where the bolts go through. We're talking driveline with a blown motor here. Not shaving down a gauge bezel or something of little consequence or stress. Besides he needs 2" so it's a moot point. Just my .015 cents. :)
You're gonna have to move the motor or the pump.

[wsuwrhr]

Ahem......Doubtful unless the steel you make your PTO's from is butter, if the bolts are tight, and they engage at least 1-1/2 times the diameter they should be good.
OR...make a PTO out of alloy or tool steel.
Come on Rexie.
A little bit here, or a little bit there, might make up the difference.
Brian
The short drivelines you speak of are no longer made (Rockwell), be tough to find one that isn't thrashed.
I wouldn't advise thinning a PTO either. They are made out of cheap steel and bolts are counterbored to fit flush. Any thinning will affect the strength where the bolts go through. We're talking driveline with a blown motor here. Not shaving down a gauge bezel or something of little consequence or stress. Besides he needs 2" so it's a moot point. Just my .015 cents. :)
You're gonna have to move the motor or the pump.

[YeLLowBoaT]

any decent drive line shop could make one to fit...

[wsuwrhr]

any decent drive line shop could make one to fit...
Not really.
Tried that, there are very few "H" bars out there.
Brian

[Duane HTP]

I have used just one U-Joint in many of the boats over the years. Mostly in boats that were already assembled and then installed a Jetaway. So, most of them were fairly high HP. They are very easy to set up. Put the drive line on the motor and slip it into place on the pump shaft. Leave about 1/4" of free play so as not to mess up your engine's thrust bearing. When you get the motor at the angle you want it, bolt the front motor mounts down. Now go to the rear of the engine. Raise it up to where the weight is just off of the drive line and lock the rear motor mounts there. I'm running around 1200 HP in my 23' lake boat and it has been that way since 1991 with no problems. I did replace the u-joint once a couple of years ago when I was doing some engine work. I know I have 10 or so customers that have been running them that way for years. Don't know of any problems yet. I've had good luck with it.

[MWJSOne]

Check this guy out he makes and offers all sorts of drive train parts
http://driveshaftsuperstore.com/Drive_shaft_long_slip_yoke_and_spline.htm
You could run a CV joint or a Cardon type joint
moving the engine fwd may have to be looked at to get the right fit good luck

[Rexone]

Ahem......Doubtful unless the steel you make your PTO's from is butter, if the bolts are tight, and they engage at least 1-1/2 times the diameter they should be good.
OR...make a PTO out of alloy or tool steel.
Come on Rexie.
A little bit here, or a little bit there, might make up the difference.
Brian
We don't make those. I know they're soft material, not sure if ledloy or what. Adequate as designed but I sure wouldn't want to be cutting material off. It's not like they're 4130 or 4140. Sound like HTP has the answer anyway

[1968Droptop]

I have used just one U-Joint in many of the boats over the years. Mostly in boats that were already assembled and then installed a Jetaway. So, most of them were fairly high HP. They are very easy to set up. Put the drive line on the motor and slip it into place on the pump shaft. Leave about 1/4" of free play so as not to mess up your engine's thrust bearing. When you get the motor at the angle you want it, bolt the front motor mounts down. Now go to the rear of the engine. Raise it up to where the weight is just off of the drive line and lock the rear motor mounts there. I'm running around 1200 HP in my 23' lake boat and it has been that way since 1991 with no problems. I did replace the u-joint once a couple of years ago when I was doing some engine work. I know I have 10 or so customers that have been running them that way for years. Don't know of any problems yet. I've had good luck with it.
Thanks for the reply Duane. Very similar advice Jerry Skagen gave me today. He said he'd done it to 1/2 a dozen boats back in the day, with no known troubles.
Just take your time and line it up straight huh ???

[jrork]

Hey Droppy, how far along are you with your rail kit? I'm leaning that way too and want to see how much a pain in the azz it's gonna be on mine.
I'm changing out our interior to make some room for the blower belt.

[Cs19]

That is a scary thought to hear the PTO is made of soft material.:squiggle:

[Rexone]

That is a scary thought to hear the PTO is made of soft material.:squiggle:
It's all torque so they are fine as designed for their purpose. We were actually going to make them once upon a time but figured out (I think) they were made out of ledloy and we couldn't compete on price making out of better material like 4130 or 4140 (this was years ago so my memory ain't so good). I know they're not hard stuff because the dent easily when banged on with a hammer (not that you should be hammering them). Regardless I've never seen one fail using proper bolts, and just decided we didn't need the liability associated with this particular part (in case one ever did fail or got installed improperly with junk bolts or something) so we passed on making.

[1968Droptop]

Hey Droppy, how far along are you with your rail kit? I'm leaning that way too and want to see how much a pain in the azz it's gonna be on mine.
I'm changing out our interior to make some room for the blower belt.
It's not really that bad John. BLT has his pretty much buttoned up, and mine is on hold till the lower pulley shows up. It should be in my hand in a day or so. Skagen told me some are hard, some are easy. My troubles are with engine compartment depth. When I mocked it up last weekend, it seemed pretty straight forward.

[wsuwrhr]

That is a scary thought to hear the PTO is made of soft material.:squiggle:
Some guys use 4130 for their PTO's, too bad you don't run a Dodge.;) ;)
Brian

[Xerophobic]

Ive done a good bit of research and calling around pertaining to driveshafts etc for my latest big Hp project. That with the expereince gained over the years by my boss and other whitewater racers lead to some interesting finds.
Basically not a single driveshaft guy 'in the know' told me a yoke/ujoint will work and be reliable over ~3000 rpm. The reason is the force on the yokes makes them spread slightly allowng whatever is in the center (hbar etc) to go slightly offbalance. This creates harmonics and eventually the failure of the shaft and or joints. Now we run for long periods of time at WOT in marathon racing but it all certainly makes sense. Im guessing you just "get away with it" on a lakeboat application.
Our most recent solution involves CV technology and altho we have yet to try them on the river it seems very promising. It is somewhat limiting in length but the joints we have sourced are good for 8000 rpm and 4000 ft/lbs of tq
We'll keep you posted
Cheers

[BrendellaJet]

[QUOTE=Xerophobic;2521646]Basically not a single driveshaft guy 'in the know' told me a yoke/ujoint will work and be reliable over ~3000 rpm. /QUOTE]
Not sure Im buying that. The unit that came in my boat from day one is still intact and has seen lots or time above 3000 rpm.
I would however be interested in seeing some of the other options available.

[Xerophobic]

Im merely repeating what I heard over and over again when looking for a driveshaft setup for my application. Soon as i said 6600 rpm everyone blinked.
Im also talking about extended periods of time at WOT which is something most lake boats, or even drags boats simple do not see. Ill post more info and pictures once we get some testing done. The new setup we've found looks bulletproof
Cheers

[1968Droptop]

Im merely repeating what I heard over and over again when looking for a driveshaft setup for my application. Soon as i said 6600 rpm everyone blinked.
Im also talking about extended periods of time at WOT which is something most lake boats, or even drags boats simple do not see. Ill post more info and pictures once we get some testing done. The new setup we've found looks bulletproof
Cheers
If I read your first post correctly, your supporting the single u-joint theory ?
What is the total length of this 'new' style shaft your working on ?

[21TUNL]

Whatever you do make sure its strong cause that barge b heavy!:D
LOL,, so this is where u get your tech.
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/boat_pics_001.jpg

[Xerophobic]

No im suggesting nothing that uses a yoke because they spread and go out of balance above 3000 rpm.
CV is the way to go and I belive the shortest off the shelf length they can do is 11"
I'll post pics soon
Cheers

[1968Droptop]

Whatever you do make sure its strong cause that barge b heavy!:D
What up Tom ? Yeah, I've learned my share here that's for sure. And just what do you mean by barge LOL !!!!!!

[21TUNL]

What up Tom ? Yeah, I've learned my share here that's for sure. And just what do you mean by barge LOL !!!!!!
Barge is a motivational term used by boaters to motivate other boaters whos boats are not ready for the water to induce a frenzy of activity centered around the aspect of finishing a project to go boating,,,, get busy so you can look at this view of my boat all summer! Haaaa
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/boat_pics_008.jpg

[1968Droptop]

Barge is a motivational term used by boaters to motivate other boaters whos boats are not ready for the water to induce a frenzy of activity centered around the aspect of finishing a project to go boating,,,, get busy so you can look at this view of my boat all summer! Haaaa
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/boat_pics_008.jpg
Listen to you throwing the samck down :D. No need for any kind of a speech, I'm sooooo freakin ready it's stupid !!! Just got to hurry up n wait for the blower to get finished. The long block should be done in a week, waiting for the lifters to show up. I just need to get Don Hampton busy on MY SHIT !!! LOL.

[Outlaw]

Lets see some more pics of that 21TUNL

[21TUNL]

Here ya go. Just had to ask didnt ya.:D
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/boat_vids_030.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/boat_pics_013.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/209-2.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/209-4.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/209-3.jpg

[Outlaw]

nice looking ride. what year is it?

[21TUNL]

Its an 01. TPR.:)

[konarider]

Yeah the pump is set back, but only an inch. My other option is to find the coupler I was hunting for earlier this month with no luck. The unit I'm looking for has the u-joint coupler and the flange that bolts right to the crank all in one piece. These units seem to be about 1.75" shorter than the two piece unit I currently have. That just might buy me enough room, MAYBE. But I haven't been able to find one. Thanks for the tips guys !
I need to replace my double u-joint driveline, it,s the old rockwell style that bolts directly to the crank, obsolete part from what I,m told. mine is 6 3/4 length, from a ford 460 to bek.12je pump.Any help out there?

[2Sangers]

I could not determine what engine you are running by this post but, if it is a Chevy I may have the piece you need. It is the flange with the u joint ears that has the crankshaft bolt pattern. It was designed for use with a flex plate instead of a flywheel which will give you a litte more room.
The one I have has casting numbers S55-2-10F. The u-joint lock grooves are 3.25" apart and the caps are 1 1/16".
Hope this is usefull info.

[jetovatorjeff]

21 tunnel clean ride. what size motor? what speeds are you running?

[LGCDEVIL]

http://www.nloc.net/photopost/data/1982/medium/boat_pics_013.jpg
Install rub rail on this boat. That took a little bit of skills.

[Xerophobic]

Just an update (glad someone revived the thread)
My project is taking alot more time than initialy expected(who knew!) but the CV setup has be tested on another raceboat with no problems so far.
The boat is reportedly doing 110+ (and climbing)already and will be taking part in the worlds in less than 2 weeks. Stay tuned for the results on this but it looks very promising. I don't think there is a better way to test a driveline than to put it in a 1000 HP whitewater boat and run a world marathon with it.
Race is 17 legs totalling nearly 600 miles, a very high percentage of that will be at WOT
Cheers