Small block or Big block

[biggraypig]

Which is better?
What do you run?

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Ive got the case of popcorn ready for this one :D
I personally run big block
No displacement for cubic inches.................

[biggraypig]

Yea, it could get interesting.

[Xerophobic]

Our Lighweight 21 tunnel built for FX class racing will do low 80's with a BONE STOCK ZZ4 crate motor.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/3722fxtunnelsiderr.JPG
Please lets not have anyone on here come and say small blocks don't work in jetboats.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/3722fxtunnelrunr.JPG
Incidentally when I say lightweight tunnel I do not mean something paper thin that can't handle chop, this is still a very rugged whitewater boat.
That same hull with a stout smallblock would catch quite a few big block boats well offguard. I'd estimate 400 HP would get you into the 90's and all of these speeds are quoted with rollcage, safety gear and two people onboard
Cheers

[ck7684]

I think most run big blocks. I had a small 14 ft jet boat set up for a SBC, but it was never in running condition, but I think it coulda been fun...I got rid of it tho...
Dont a lot of the racing boats run small blocks??

[Some Kind Of Monster]

Ive got the case of popcorn ready for this one :D
I personally run big block
No displacement for cubic inches.................
No replacement for displacement? You been drinkin again? :D

[Devilman]

LOL...
Most every jet I've ever been around has had a big block. There is a guy in town, that has been tryin to run a SBC, without much luck. That may be the way he's building them though, I've never met him. There is another guy down south of me that is running a 383 Chevy in his boat & it runs pretty good.
Lots of the aluminum jets run small blocks & they are definitely taking care of business with them.
Far as which one is better, I'd say whatever fits the application. :D

[wsuwrhr]

If you want to go fast in a regular-layup-fiberglass-JET-boat, a big block is your only choice.
Unless of course you are working with and unlimited budget,
then anything is possible.
Now for those beer can boats, you would have plenty of fun with a small block.
How is that answer for you?
Brian

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

No replacement for displacement? You been drinkin again? :D
I was still half a sleep :D Ill be drinking tonight though :D

[edog_103]

I have a 1988 16' Carribean with a small block chevy. I'll say this. It's just ok. It will never be fast. But it does pull a skier and gets my ice chest up and down the river, so i guess it's fine.

[Xerophobic]

If you want to go fast in a regular-layup-fiberglass-JET-boat, a big block is your only choice.
Unless of course you are working with and unlimited budget,
then anything is possible.
Now for those beer can boats, you would have plenty of fun with a small block.
How is that answer for you?
Brian
Its a good answer but it should also be screaming the obvious to you about what type of hulls should be WAY more popular than they are in that southern "fast" boat scene.
:D
Cheers

[QuickJet]

Which is better?
What do you run?
Small blocks don't work in jet boats.

[Amm]

Crazy silly idea, but how about 2 small blocks coupled together to make one engine?
350 + 350 = 700 cubic inches.
Would 2 300hp 350s be less money than 1 600hp big block?
The two engines would weigh more, I think.

[QuickJet]

Crazy silly idea, but how about 2 small blocks coupled together to make one engine?
350 + 350 = 700 cubic inches.
Would 2 300hp 350s be less money than 1 600hp big block?
The two engines would weigh more, I think.
You are right, crazy, silly idea. It's far cheaper to make 600 hp out of a Suburban motor than putting two small blocks together.

[Xerophobic]

Small blocks don't work in jet boats.
How much power are you running and how fast is your boat???

[ck7684]

Just look at all these dirt/circle track racers. They are runnin' serious HP small blocks that I'm sure would work with a jet. BB's offer more low end torque much easier tho, which is where most jets like to have power...
Big blocks sound so much better too :D

[QuickJet]

How much power are you running and how fast is your boat???
850 hp and 122 on the motor. I have a 300 fogger system but havn't the balls to hit it yet.

[toad polumsky]

My 73 eliminator v bottom(heavy) seems to run super with a small block.

[wsuwrhr]

How many times do I have to type that the NEXT family lake boat I put together will be a beercan boat for sure. Fiberglass is so last week.
Brian
Its a good answer but it should also be screaming the obvious to you about what type of hulls should be WAY more popular than they are in that southern "fast" boat scene.
:D
Cheers

[Xerophobic]

At least someone is listening......:rolleyes:
(850 hp pushes our reg weight 21 tunnel to about the same speed ~120 but thats with a rock grate, 2 guys onboard and about 60 gallons of fuel)
Cheers

[QuickJet]

At least someone is listening......:rolleyes:
(850 hp pushes our reg weight 21 tunnel to about the same speed ~120 but thats with a rock grate, 2 guys onboard and about 60 gallons of fuel)
Cheers
But it won't do it in the 1/4 mile and it won't e.t. for shit.
That's why small blocks don't work in jet boats.

[BrendellaJet]

How much power are you running and how fast is your boat???
You aren't going to help your cause by talking. You wont sell any boats down here untill we can see them up close and take them for a test ride.

[wsuwrhr]

HUH????????????
But it won't do it in the 1/4 mile and it won't e.t. for shit.
That's why small blocks don't work in jet boats.

[wsuwrhr]

You aren't going to help your cause by talking. You wont sell any boats down here untill we can see them up close and take them for a test ride.
I've been saying the same thing. The beercan boat guys keep THREATENING to come down, but so far...nothing.
I'm sad.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

You think noone notices?
I am not scared.
Brian
At least someone is listening......:rolleyes:
(850 hp pushes our reg weight 21 tunnel to about the same speed ~120 but thats with a rock grate, 2 guys onboard and about 60 gallons of fuel)
Cheers

[67weimann]

I run a worn out 327 SBC in my 18' jet, full interior, 2 people and 30 gallons of petro and it runs right around 60mph....:idea:

[Xerophobic]

I didn't even say what motor was pushing that boat to 120. IMO I think you're misleading people and making huge assumptions about SB powered jetboats when you say they "don't work" . Frankly I have seen very few SB boats in the southern market, and even fewer that were set up properly.
(incidentally the motor I refered to above was a 600" BB)
I provided a very real life and perfect example of a SB powered boat at the top of this page which does over 80 MPH with w/ a 355 HP SBC crate motor
I bet a good number of BB powered boats on this site barely see 80's
Cheers

[CPBRIAN10THMTN]

A SBC jet boat is only going to go so fast, jet pumps feed off torque and putting more than 5800-6000 rpm into a jet is going to do nothing for you unless you have a shoe, loader scoop etc. the pump needs to be loaded massivly when pushing that many revs or its just going to cavitate like crazy. Need to make all your power at the bottom end up to around 5500 rpm's, thats a whole lot easier with a BBC, easy power and alot of torque. SBC's will make alot of power but not alot of torque. BBC the way to go.

[Xerophobic]

You aren't going to help your cause by talking. You wont sell any boats down here untill we can see them up close and take them for a test ride.
Its got nothing to do with "helping my cause' Im just trying to make sure the guy asking the question is getting the whole story. Honestly at this stage we have enough trouble keeping up with our existing market let alone opening up a whole new one. Aluminum boats are feircly popular here and for good reason.
Now with that said as soon as they do start showing up down there I guarantee glass boats are in for a big shock. We've said time and time again we'll bend over backwards to convice a SERIOUS buyer. I don't think you'll find any boat manufacturer who is going to invest a ton of time in trying to sell a certain boat to a "tire kicker". To date very few people have contacted us with serious intentions of buying a boat. If someone falls into the catergory of serious buyer you are welcome to contact me personally at any time. Our owner IS very interested in working with individuals to get some boats down there. I won't name names but we've had some inquiries from some very respectable names on this board, that tells me something.
Also our boats ARE in the US. One of our biggest dealers is Gator boats in MO. They build some killer stuff and get great performance. Go to any whitewater race from Idaho to California and you will likely see well over 90% of the boats participating were built by us. With 14 of the last 17 world championships, I honestly don't think we need to "prove" anything. We'd love to see some of you guys learn the power of aluminum boats and I will continue to post and try to educate on the advantages of them. I understand that we're up against a huge wall of tried and tested and old school ways of thinking. This is primarily why I try to post factual no BS claims. I was literally in one of our lightweight FX tunnels navigating on the Salmon river this past weekend. We did an honest 81 mph with a 3+ year old never "opened" ZZ4 small block. To me thats "working" and working pretty damn good. Whats a ZZ4 cost down there anyway about $3500?
80 mph on a 3 year old engine which we basically only check oil on, to me thats a damn good boat engine and a damn good boat
Cheers
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/SalmonRiverFX140.jpg
p.s. we saw those speeds with the ZZ4 running slighty UNDER 5000 rpm

[wsuwrhr]

On GPS?
Right around 60, or is it 55, or 51?
With 200lbs of fuel and 300lbs(approx) of people?
I could be wrong, but....
I doubt it.
Sorry.
Brian
I run a worn out 327 SBC in my 18' jet, full interior, 2 people and 30 gallons of petro and it runs right around 60mph....:idea:

[wsuwrhr]

I don't need any convincing. I wish I hadn't put so much work into my boat. I know what I would be buying.
Would you please post a weight of your normal setup alloy boat. I will figure a couple hundred pounds for interior and other "lake" necessities.
Add 150-200 pounds for a big block, that would be my setup.
If you can, post a cost an approximate cost of a floater hull, ready to go, minus power and motormounts. PM me if you rather. I am not really a tire kicker, but I have always been interested.
A beer can boat would be bitchen.
Brian
Its got nothing to do with "helping my cause' Im just trying to make sure the guy asking the question is getting the whole story. Honestly at this stage we have enough trouble keeping up with our existing market let alone opening up a whole new one. Aluminum boats are feircly popular here and for good reason.
Now with that said as soon as they do start showing up down there I guarantee glass boats are in for a big shock. We've said time and time again we'll bend over backwards to convice a SERIOUS buyer. I don't think you'll find any boat manufacturer who is going to invest a ton of time in trying to sell a certain boat to a "tire kicker". To date very few people have contacted us with serious intentions of buying a boat. If someone falls into the catergory of serious buyer you are welcome to contact me personally at any time. Our owner IS very interested in working with individuals to get some boats down there. I won't name names but we've had some inquiries from some very respectable names on this board, that tells me something.
Also our boats ARE in the US. One of our biggest dealers is Gator boats in MO. They build some killer stuff and get great performance. Go to any whitewater race from Idaho to California and you will likely see well over 90% of the boats participating were built by us. With 14 of the last 17 world championships, I honestly don't think we need to "prove" anything. We'd love to see some of you guys learn the power of aluminum boats and I will continue to post and try to educate on the advantages of them. I understand that we're up against a huge wall of tried and tested and old school ways of thinking. This is primarily why I try to post factual no BS claims. I was literally in one of our lightweight FX tunnels navigating on the Salmon river this past weekend. We did an honest 81 mph with a 3+ year old never "opened" ZZ4 small block. To me thats "working" and working pretty damn good. Whats a ZZ4 cost down there anyway about $3500?
80 mph on a 3 year old engine which we basically only check oil on, to me thats a damn good boat engine and a damn good boat
Cheers

[Xerophobic]

Ill answer here, nothing to hide.
Weights are very hard to quote for a few reasons.
Typically our "go fast boats" are far from 'standard'
Do you want a tunnel, a sport? QT keel? plastic bow? There are a ton of options that make almost every boat we build different. Also remember our race boats have the weight of all the safety gear, roll bars etc. I think you'd be surprised how little weight difference there is from race to pleasure. Its also more than just weight its bottom design, intake etc etc
If you can narrow it down I'd be happy to find out for you or even send you our build sheets with options and pricing for a given hull. They aren't cheap but they perform very well, last and hold value extremely well. Try to find an available used one!
I don't want to hijack the thread into a sales pitch, my point is only that SB's can definatly work in jetboats and offer great perfomance and affordability. We obviously build BB powered boats too, often. But if you pay attention to setup SB's work very well too. Like I said above our ZZ4 boat was not even turning 5K
For general comparison a turn key lightweight FX boat like the red/yellow boat shown with a ZZ4 on a trailer is about $56K cnd (~$50K usd) thats with canards and ballast tank(canards got ripped off in a class 4 rapid in that race hehe) That includes all the race gear, seats, harnesses, cage etc
Cheers

[BrendellaJet]

I don't need any convincing. I wish I hadn't put so much work into my boat. I know what I would be buying.
Would you please post a weight of your normal setup alloy boat. I will figure a couple hundred pounds for interior and other "lake" necessities.
Add 150-200 pounds for a big block, that would be my setup.
If you can, post a cost an approximate cost of a floater hull, ready to go, minus power and motormounts. PM me if you rather. I am not really a tire kicker, but I have always been interested.
A beer can boat would be bitchen.
Brian
Good luck getting that info, I tried & tried and got nothing.

[Taylorman]

A SBC jet boat is only going to go so fast, jet pumps feed off torque and putting more than 5800-6000 rpm into a jet is going to do nothing for you unless you have a shoe, loader scoop etc. the pump needs to be loaded massivly when pushing that many revs or its just going to cavitate like crazy. Need to make all your power at the bottom end up to around 5500 rpm's, thats a whole lot easier with a BBC, easy power and alot of torque. SBC's will make alot of power but not alot of torque. BBC the way to go.
Doesn't it take torque to make power?

[Xerophobic]

Good luck getting that info, I tried & tried and got nothing.
Tried and tried with who? looking for what info?
Im unaware of anyone from this board having contacted me who I did not get back to?? I know one individual we had some email issues with but I have a pretty good raport with him and Im sure we'll get around to it. I have told him to call me. Im not going to mention his name since I don't think I should but you all know this guy and he's very respected here, posts very often
Anyone on the board is free to get our # off our site and call for info. PM me or email me. Ill do whatever I can for ya
Cheers

[SB]

Doesn't it take torque to make power?
You wouldn't be yankin' us here, buddy? :D
I have nothing against aluminum boats or small blocks. My built an aluminum cabin cruiser with an SBC and a Berk in about 1970.
BUT
to answer the question, in your family lake jet, you are better off with the BB spinning a bigger impeller at a lower rpm. You can buy a cheap, stock BB to make about 350 hp at about 4400 rpm on reg gas. It can be done with a small block, but it is going to be more $. Maybe twice the money for the engine, more rpm, prem. gas.

[QuickJet]

Small blocks don't work in jet boats. I hardly think that your $56,000 dollar "Specialty" boat is any type of example pertaining to an everyday lake boat setup. Stick that same motor into a 19' Bahner and all you would have a 55 mph pig. People run big blocks for a reason.

[Xerophobic]

Ever think the problem in your example may be with the "Bahner" and not the rest of the package??
If you want a 21 foot lake tunnel and happen to want the lighweight version that "specialty" boat in the pic is exactly what you'd get(there is nothing special about it)
Thats what doesn't seem to get across. These aren't dainty "trailer queen specialty boats" these are standard performance hulls that have been continually improved on every year for the past 15 or so. Not a lake boat designed from a mold made in the early 70's. The hulls are built the same, exactly the same, sure the rigging can be different but don't make it sound like the hull is a wafer thin raceboat that will self distruct in lake use. (thats a class 4 rapid we're driving through in the 140 boat)
The question wasn't what engine will push XXX hull better the question was SB vs BB and nothing more. You don't like SB's thats fine I don't have an issue with that. I do contest the blanket statement that SB's don't work in jetboats.
What do you think would really be different about taking that turnkey FX boat and removing the high backs and rollcage and putting in some lakeboat seats, floors and carpet? Would it weigh that much different?
Cut that FX boat some slack its doing 80 mph with 355 hp at about 4900 rpm!!! :)
Cheers

[wsuwrhr]

Isn't that the point?
Weight is the big issue here.
At least that was my point.
Brian
Stick that same motor into a 19' Bahner and all you would have a 55 mph pig. People run big blocks for a reason.

[Xerophobic]

Small blocks don't work in jet boats. I hardly think that your $56,000 dollar "Specialty" boat is any type of example pertaining to an everyday lake boat setup. Stick that same motor into a 19' Bahner and all you would have a 55 mph pig. People run big blocks for a reason.
What you meant to say is people with glass boats run big blocks for a reason
Cheers

[wsuwrhr]

Ok then,
I am looking for a bare bones boat. A floater if you will. No power for sure. Intake and pump set, I don't need the billet pump setup. Just a regular Legend or Berk split bowl. This will just be an avarage lake boat. Whatever bottom you recommend, no teflon keel or the fancy jizz.
I'll do my own interior, motor installation and final rigging. All I am looking for is the basic setup, the critical rigging(pump, intake, transom adapter, steering), and I will finish it off the rest.
Or to make it real simple, a price for a bare bones hull with a pump installed.
Brian
Ill answer here, nothing to hide.
Weights are very hard to quote for a few reasons.
Typically our "go fast boats" are far from 'standard'
Do you want a tunnel, a sport? QT keel? plastic bow? There are a ton of options that make almost every boat we build different. Also remember our race boats have the weight of all the safety gear, roll bars etc. I think you'd be surprised how little weight difference there is from race to pleasure. Its also more than just weight its bottom design, intake etc etc
If you can narrow it down I'd be happy to find out for you or even send you our build sheets with options and pricing for a given hull. They aren't cheap but they perform very well, last and hold value extremely well. Try to find an available used one!
I don't want to hijack the thread into a sales pitch, my point is only that SB's can definatly work in jetboats and offer great perfomance and affordability. We obviously build BB powered boats too, often. But if you pay attention to setup SB's work very well too. Like I said above our ZZ4 boat was not even turning 5K
For general comparison a turn key lightweight FX boat like the red/yellow boat shown with a ZZ4 on a trailer is about $56K cnd (~$50K usd) thats with canards and ballast tank(canards got ripped off in a class 4 rapid in that race hehe) That includes all the race gear, seats, harnesses, cage etc
Cheers

[Xerophobic]

PM sent
intake is always included with the boat(and any quoted weights) as its welded in and fabricated by us.
The only bare hulls we sell are the 21 tunnel and the odd Steptec sport boat. We take pride in our product and in the past bare hulls have been very poorly rigged and released on the used market making us look like very poor riggers. For this reason we no longer sell anything "bare" other than our race boats which obviously are frequently rigged by the racers. I just wanted to clarify that.
It likely won't affect you guys as I am certain most of you are interested in our tunnel anyway. The boat you see is the boat we build, its not "special" in any way other than its very good. We do not have a "race" version and a "pleasure" version of this hull. Sure we may weld the odd bracket in here and there if we know you want to bolt a floor in for example but there is nothing else "custom" or "trick" in the raceboat thats not in the pleasure boat
Cheers
p.s. A bare 21 tunnel is $13500 cnd (~$12050 usd) lightweight version slightly more( all include intake, race grate and billet rear ramp)

[QuickJet]

Ever think the problem in your example may be with the "Bahner" and not the rest of the package??
Sorry, but those aluminum boats arent that pretty. I'd take a bubble deck Sanger, Bahner, Eliminator or CP over those aluminum boats. People don't run those here in the states for many reasons. 1 being that they arent that easy on the eyes.
If I wanted to go fast with a small block I'd put it in a v-drive and forget the jet altogether.
The question wasn't what engine will push XXX hull better the question was SB vs BB and nothing more. You don't like SB's thats fine I don't have an issue with that. I do contest the blanket statement that SB's don't work in jetboats.
I never said I didn't like small blocks, I said that they don't work in jet boats.
You will get more reliable HP and Torque out of the big block than that of the small block. Jet's require torque down low which is what a BB delivers. No one cares about a $56,000 aluminum boat with a small block in it. For that money you could go alot faster with a BB and look bettter doing it at the same time.

[pw_Tony]

I'm not as interested in top speed when it comes to BB v. SB. Those tin boats might do 80 mph with a small block but what kind of 1/4 mile times do they make?

[superdave013]

I run a worn out 327 SBC in my 18' jet, full interior, 2 people and 30 gallons of petro and it runs right around 60mph....:idea:
I had a boat about like yours. It was a 16' Tahiti. It had a 327 in it when we bought it. It ran really well, prolly about the same as yours. Then it got a 406 @ 13:1 and F'in haulled azz. It would bow steer like a bitch though. But it was fun to spank people with it and they come over to see a SBC with a single carb. My friend still has it. It now has a 427" stroked SBC @ 9.5:1. Runs good on pump gas.

[Xerophobic]

QJ this will be my last post directed at you. Im agreeing to dissagree with you.
Im am by no means saying BB's don't work. We use and rig boats with them all the time, lots of guys race them, obviously they have their place.
My point is small blocks can and DO work in jetboats and we see many an example of that all the time. That was the point of this thread. Not what boat will x motor work in better or what hull will look better with a smallblock or big block in it. Ive said it 4 times that FX boat is running LESS than 5K rpm and its BONE stock with many many hours at WOT. Its far from a "babied" boat. the Canadian race association has been so impressed with how well ZZ4's last in WOT race use they have made them the ONLY motor allowed in FX class at this years worlds. Its a very affordable and reliable jetboat motor. I personally wouldn't hesitate for 1 minute to use one, well if I wasn't a Ford guy that is ;)
I understand you don't like tin boats, small block jetboats or Canada for that matter, just don't mislead the guy asking the question because of it!
Cheers
(where in the hell is Jungle boy in this discussion! LOL)
p.s. pic for WSU, 19 foot sport high window(Jungle boys boat) Dave will tell ya how good an all around boat this is, 80+, no problems getting on step, can run the skinny stuff when it has to, clip gravel here and there and yes you guessed it a SB
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/19sportHW.JPG

[ck7684]

Arent a lot of these small block powered??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31MG0lW3uQA

[71tahiti]

If he is talking about a Sidewinder hull, Then a BB is the only way to go. That hull is much heavier than the "surfboards" you guys are talking about. I have a BB Olds in mine and I cant imagine having less cubic inches.
Im with 396, NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT.

[71tahiti]

TEST POST... Padding posts........:D

[QuickJet]

Let's go back to the initial question (before it was turned into a Canadian infomercial)
Which is better?
What do you run?
Big blocks are better. More torque, more room for reliable power, resale value and speed. I run a 505.
.
My point is small blocks can and DO work in jetboats and we see many an example of that all the time.
No, they work in YOUR type of jet boat. One of which the guy who asked the question doesn't own. So since he asked the question, the answer should be directed to what "FITS HIS NEEDS", not the needs of your buisiness or the exploitation thereof.

[Xerophobic]

Small block or Big block
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is better?
What do you run?
Sorry I guess you're right. I didn't see the part about what hull he was running
:rolleyes:

[Xerophobic]

Arent a lot of these small block powered??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31MG0lW3uQA
All our hulls yes but those are mostly A class(470 CI) and B class(360 CI) boats
The yellow boat with white dash however was last years FX class winner with a SB
Cheers

[pw_Tony]

Any quarter mile times on the tin boats? Any at all?

[Amm]

So, those boats in that video are runnning this engine? http://www.high-performance-engines.com/ce03.html
It says its not for marine use, what do you have to do to make it usable for marine use? Or are they just doing that to cover themselves?

[BrendellaJet]

Tried and tried with who? looking for what info?
Im unaware of anyone from this board having contacted me who I did not get back to?? I know one individual we had some email issues with but I have a pretty good raport with him and Im sure we'll get around to it. I have told him to call me. Im not going to mention his name since I don't think I should but you all know this guy and he's very respected here, posts very often
Anyone on the board is free to get our # off our site and call for info. PM me or email me. Ill do whatever I can for ya
Cheers
With you! I have several PMS back & forth with you last year trying to get some info. According to the PM's your name is James. You were going to have Alison email me. It never happened. After the second request went with no response I gave up.
Timing isn't right now, but in the next year or so Im gonna have to get a bigger boat, as my 2 seater jetboat aint gonna cut it as a family boat. I dont want a cookie cutter boat and Id love to see how my motor would do in one of those things.

[QuickJet]

Small block or Big block
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is better?
What do you run?
Sorry I guess you're right. I didn't see the part about what hull he was running
:rolleyes:
Well if you would have paid attention you would of known that he has a '73 Sidewinder Superjet with a 455 Olds and a Berkeley.
http://***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28591&d=1176472465

[Xerophobic]

Yup thats the engine. I could go out to the shop right now and take pictures of about 4 boats being built for the worlds right now with ZZ4's
In a nutshell we used to have a C class in this type of racing which was a non dry sump 350 CI engine and it was "supposed to be" a entry level class above the Mercury SJ boats. Problem was, as im sure many of you have seen in many forms of auto racing, guys started dumping HUGE money into these small blocks. They tried a 5K claimer to control it but as usual claims were rarely made. At this stage a typical C class engine is costing upwards of 17K-20K to build, not very effective and certainly not an entry level race engine.
Expereince was gained with the ZZ4 and it has proven so reliable in these boats it will be the ONLY engine allowed in Canadian FX class in the future(and at this Years Worlds). You just can't build a much more reliable engine for that money. This decision also makes the class easy to police as I am also sure many of you guys are aware its very difficult to control classes like this. The important thing with this engine is NOT rev it much past 5K if at all.
No the engine certainly doesn't have a warranty for racing and I would assume yes they cover their butts saying not for marine use but I tell ya they have had great luck with this engine in race boats and have adopted it as the standard. For marine use we stick headers on them and hook them to a jetpump LOL (literally we don't do a thing to them)
FX class in the US still alows "built" engines and there is a fair bit of turmoil occuring in the class for the reasons mentioned above, suspicion of cheating and teardowns and all that goes with trying to police a class where built motors are allowed. We've had many US guys admire the Canucks for sticking with an all crate FX class.
We finished 4rth in FX at the Salmon race and we think the reason for that was probably a HP difference from our 3+ yr old crate SB to fresh "built" SB's which might be making 400 HP. We had the most technically advanced and lightest hull in the class. 50 Hp in a FX boat is a HUGE difference. It may also have been the tunnel bleeding speed more in the corners and its speed through the rapids altho we were quite impressed how well the lightweight boat did. the canards lasted longer than we thought hehehe
Cheers

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Which is better?
What do you run?
As have been said, depends on the aplication.
In general, if you want strong acceleration and pulling power, a bigger impeller is better than a smaller impeller, and a big block's torque does a much better job of spinning a large impeller hard. The small blocks will generally give up some accelration and pulling to run a smaller impeller to get more RPM from the motor, with the higher RPM powerband of the typical small block.
The lighter beer can river boats generally do very well with the small blocks, if they are built to make plenty of power.
The heavier fibreglass lake boats generally are running big blocks, and making plenty of HP, but generally do it at a lower RPM, hooked up the the big (A and AA) impellers.

[Xerophobic]

With you! I have several PMS back & forth with you last year trying to get some info. According to the PM's your name is James. You were going to have Alison email me. It never happened. After the second request went with no response I gave up.
Timing isn't right now, but in the next year or so Im gonna have to get a bigger boat, as my 2 seater jetboat aint gonna cut it as a family boat. I dont want a cookie cutter boat and Id love to see how my motor would do in one of those things.
I remember that well now and it was you we couldn't seem to get emails to go through with when I was on a temporary server while moving offices etc which is why i was having Allison try. Its not that we're unwilling to give out the info but sometimes there are technical issues with doing so. We try our best
Give me a call and we'll get you what you need even if we have to fax it
I just spoke with our receptionist Alison and she remembers this well. She tried on 4 seperate occasions to send you the batch of pictures you wanted but they always bounced back from your server. She sent you text only emails and even tried cutting the number of pictures into 1/3 s
In any case im sorry you got lost in the shuffle we're certainly more than willing to try again if you want to provide your current email address. I was on a temporary email server and could not access our main drive to attach pictures to emails. I was confused at first as to why I had no record of your email address but that is why. Sorry about that
Cheers

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Just look at all these dirt/circle track racers. They are runnin' serious HP small blocks that I'm sure would work with a jet. BB's offer more low end torque much easier tho, which is where most jets like to have power...
Big blocks sound so much better too :D
Yea, but the problem is to make all that HP in an RPM band you can mate to a decent sized impeller.
I'm turning 5,000 RPM on an A impeller with 400HP.
I could get 5600 RPM with a "C" cut.
Or do that same 5,000 with 284HP.
Both ways I give away acceleration, and my boat spends most of her lake time towing somebody, skiis or tube, and they come to the top of the water NOW, with only a modest roll on the throttle, about 4,000, then pulled back to 3,000 or so.
All the v-6 bass-whackers I have run over the years keep wanting to start from idle, and really regret that decision about 6 secconds after I step on the loud pedal.
About 20 secconds later, I turn the boat arround, and go back to see where they are, still.:D

[67weimann]

On GPS?
Right around 60, or is it 55, or 51?
With 200lbs of fuel and 300lbs(approx) of people?
I could be wrong, but....
I doubt it.
Sorry.
Brian
Last time I gps'd it (months ago) before some more mods, it was 58.3.

[biggraypig]

Isn't this FUN.
I am running a Sidewinder hull with a big block. Just wanted a few opinions, and looks like I have got a few. Keep them coming.
I am thinking for my application big block is the only way to go.
Thanks

[Xerophobic]

You're probably right!
I had no way of knowing if you were looking to repower, asking a general question or had a whole new hull in mind. You got some entertainment out of it none the less lol
Cheers

[pw_Tony]

You're probably right!
I had no way of knowing if you were looking to repower, asking a general question or had a whole new hull in mind. You got some entertainment out of it none the less lol
Cheers
Is there any kind of 1/4 mile time on those Tin boats or am I gonna keep being ignored?

[Xerophobic]

Ive had a few guys, also respected guys on this board, interested in campaigning one but still no firm deals.
I see no reason they can't do well and we could build an even lighter one for dragging, remember the whitewater boats have a half inch thick keel! No one has run one of our hulls in drags to the best of my knowledge, maybe a drag guy in the know could tell you if anyone has ever run a custom "one of" aluminum hull.
BP????
Cheers

[wsuwrhr]

As design is always a matter of taste, I think the tin boats look pretty sleek and mean.
I think at this point you are just trying to get a rise out of people.
Brian
Sorry, but those aluminum boats arent that pretty. I'd take a bubble deck Sanger, Bahner, Eliminator or CP over those aluminum boats. People don't run those here in the states for many reasons. 1 being that they arent that easy on the eyes.
If I wanted to go fast with a small block I'd put it in a v-drive and forget the jet altogether.
I never said I didn't like small blocks, I said that they don't work in jet boats.
You will get more reliable HP and Torque out of the big block than that of the small block. Jet's require torque down low which is what a BB delivers. No one cares about a $56,000 aluminum boat with a small block in it. For that money you could go alot faster with a BB and look bettter doing it at the same time.

[wsuwrhr]

Now I am not knocking the boat, but mine wouldn't have the windows as it isn't snowing here when I boat. haha
Nor would it have the closed engine.
But I do like the styling of the boat, it does look mean.
Brian
p.s. pic for WSU, 19 foot sport high window(Jungle boys boat) Dave will tell ya how good an all around boat this is, 80+, no problems getting on step, can run the skinny stuff when it has to, clip gravel here and there and yes you guessed it a SB
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/19sportHW.JPG

[wsuwrhr]

I believe I started the tin can dilema when I specified FIBERGLASS HULL. I got slapped down, and rightfully so, when I made the same general comment in a post last year, I learned my lession on that deal.
I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread, but I did think it was relevant.
Let's go back to the initial question (before it was turned into a Canadian infomercial)
Big blocks are better. More torque, more room for reliable power, resale value and speed. I run a 505.
No, they work in YOUR type of jet boat. One of which the guy who asked the question doesn't own. So since he asked the question, the answer should be directed to what "FITS HIS NEEDS", not the needs of your buisiness or the exploitation thereof.

[wolfie]

p.s. pic for WSU, 19 foot sport high window(Jungle boys boat) Dave will tell ya how good an all around boat this is, 80+, no problems getting on step, can run the skinny stuff when it has to, clip gravel here and there and yes you guessed it a SB
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/19sportHW.JPG
Just my humble opinion but the only thing that really impresses me asthetically on this boat is the girl. But then again, I like the looks of the old style boats, cars, ect. Just my opinion.
(thus the reason for purchasing my boat)

[wsuwrhr]

Isn't 400 hp at 5000 rpm the same for both a bb and a sb?
At a constant RPM......yes.

[wsuwrhr]

So the advantage of a Pig block is what? Weight:rolleyes:
Yes, that is the arguement.
But you got to get it there first.
Little choice down south for hull construction.
There is fiberglass hulls, and more fiberglass hulls

[twowheeledfish]

I feel compelled to chime in here. As for the beauty of Eagle's 21 sport... they're absolutely gorgeous. You have to see one in person. Take a close look at my avatar and you'll notice the red boat next to mine is an Eagle. There are three that I know of here in the Chico area and all are superb boats. The first is a 21' sport without a steptech hull, a steel insert towards the rear, hydraulic diverter, and running a 383 that dynoed at 501 hp. It runs about 68mph with 60 gallons of fuel and two passengers. The second Eagle is a fastwater (forward windshield boat), but it has the steptech hull. Even though this boat is a little heavier than a sport, it will run 60mph on gps with a bone stock 350. The steptech is magic. The third Eagle is another 21' sport. I've never been on this boat, so I don't know anything about the setup... I've just seen it on the river.
I own a 78 Eliminator bubbledeck, and I'll be frank.... the first good deal I find on a 21' Eagle sport and the Eliminator is gone.

[jetboatperformance]

Small blocks absolutley do work in jets!! Heres but one offering (we have another)This is our 16.5 "Beezer" 351 cu windsor Ford small block:an honest 77.8 on GPS , with previous "old " Motor build, turning an A 5000RPMs, estimate 450HP out of 408W Ford small block with 9.5:1 and flat top hydraulic,Victor Jr heads...... Fresh build (just fired) includes 11:1 compression, 950 hp series Holley, Crane computer igntion,moroso vaccum pump special KB forged pistons , custom grind solid roller Comp cam, shaft mount roller rockers, main brg cap stud girdle for strength Scat stroker crank Chevy "h" beam rods etc. A conservative "estimated" 550hp at 5800-6000rpms and 540 foot pounds of torque at 5000rpms( Dyno sim with real head flow numbers from Edelbrock.This boat with the old motor would "leave" so hard it was frightening !!.With the new "small block",now with a Stainless AT "B" ,inducer, Aggressor 9 vane 17-4 shaft berk droop and modified place diverter etc we are looking for 80+(without NOS) (it aint cheap though) just my .02 Thanks everyone !!Tom
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r319/jetboatperformance/josh/DSCF0243.jpg
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r319/jetboatperformance/josh/DSCF0242.jpg
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r319/jetboatperformance/josh/DSC01283.jpg

[twowheeledfish]

Here..... very nice:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/twowheeledfish/jetsatScottyslanding2.jpg

[Xerophobic]

that pic is throwing me off cause that has a tunnel style cowling on it. You sure thats a sport???
We've certainly built all kinds of variations in the past but I would swear thats a 21 tunnel
I agree on the looks. Initially i was luke warm to the styling myself but that pic says it all, they can be very sleek gorgeous boats
Cheers

[QuickJet]

Small blocks absolutley do work in jets!! Heres but one offering (we have another)This is our 16.5 "Beezer" 351 cu windsor Ford small block:an honest 77.8 on GPS , with previous "old " Motor build, turning an A 5000RPMs, estimate 450HP out of 408W Ford small block with 9.5:1 and flat top hydraulic,Victor Jr heads...... Fresh build (just fired) includes 11:1 compression, 950 hp series Holley, Crane computer igntion,moroso vaccum pump special KB forged pistons , custom grind solid roller Comp cam, shaft mount roller rockers, main brg cap stud girdle for strength Scat stroker crank Chevy "h" beam rods etc. A conservative "estimated" 550hp at 5800-6000rpms and 540 foot pounds of torque at 5000rpms( Dyno sim with real head flow numbers from Edelbrock.This boat with the old motor would "leave" so hard it was frightening !!.With the new "small block",now with a Stainless AT "B" ,inducer, Aggressor 9 vane 17-4 shaft berk droop and modified place diverter etc we are looking for 80+(without NOS) (it aint cheap though) just my .02 Thanks everyone !!Tom
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r319/jetboatperformance/josh/DSCF0243.jpg
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r319/jetboatperformance/josh/DSCF0242.jpg
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r319/jetboatperformance/josh/DSC01283.jpg
You can also make a Honda Civic run 9's.....so what. Looks like you did alot of work for 80 mph.
Here is a pick of my old Bahner. Stock pump, and a Suburban 454 with 8.75 compression. It has a tunnel ram and a small flat tappet aftermarket cam.
It runs consistent 82-83 mph on gps. The motor litterally came out of a Suburban and installed into the Bahner. No frills, nothing special. The pump is as stock as Bahner built it in 79. Again, no frills, no shoe, no ride plate, no droop snoot, nothing! Looks like you threw alot of money into your pump and motor to get nearly the same results as a Suburban powered stock pump, heavy family Bahner.
Don't get me wrong, that boat of yours is absolutely beautifull. I like it. However to make that "Big" small block run it took some coin.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/10278IMG_0337MA14195371-0005-med.JPG

[jetboatperformance]

Quick,No dispute there ($$$),it wasn,t cheap just provin' a point ...Thanks for the compliment Josh will be appreciative Thanks Tom;)

[QuickJet]

Quick,No dispute there ($$$),it wasn,t cheap just provin' a point ...Thanks for the compliment Josh will be appreciative Thanks Tom;)
I do see your point Tom. I may have jumped the gun on yah a little bit. I appologize for that.

[QuickJet]

Quickjet bring on your bb powered jet and lets run. 1/4 mile and Havasu end to end on a windy afternoon.
I don't have a jet boat. And who in the hell wants to be on Havasu on a windy day besides the second Mortage boats anyays?
I'll do the river though. A river that actually has water in it.

[QuickJet]

So you are preaching the merrits of running a BB in a jet when you don't even have one? Saying the a SB will not ET or MPH with out the actual experience to back up your statement.....HMMMMM :idea: :eek: :rolleyes: :D
No, I DIDthe jetboat thing and have since moved on. Been there done that blah blah blah :sleeping:
So when you coming down. Bring down your "tin Can" so I can serve you a can.

[wolfie]

Here..... very nice:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/twowheeledfish/jetsatScottyslanding2.jpg
Now this one is sharp looking. I like the line on it.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Isn't 400 hp at 5000 rpm the same for both a bb and a sb?
Yes, BUT
It's harder to get that 400 HP at 5-grand, or 600 at 5,500, out of a smalller displacement small block, than it is out of it's bigger relative.
You're gonna find that 400 HP at a higher RPM, necesitating a smaller impeller, and the requisite trade-offs.

[quiet riot]

Any quarter mile times on the tin boats? Any at all?
I guess to give you an answer from my exp, I won the 13 sec class at a couple races with less than 400 hp and 12 sec class with a little n2o. This was with the cdba that runs some races with ihba.
Mines a 17ft tin can with stereo, full floor, interier, ski locker, washdown pump, bimini top, side storage compartments by the motor, swim step, 50 gal fuel cap, dual front storage lockers, etc. Much heavier than their race layup river boats.
And if you want a fast launch, I beat a 10 second 120 mph boat to the 1/8 mile, and he ran 10 sec and 120 mph on that pass (qualifying passes) when i was running 12's.
And my boat has no comparison to the launch of a true sprint jet. The fast ones pull launch g's as high as top fuel dragsters and more sustained corner g's than formula 1 cars can.
Point being its all in what the boat is setup for doing. And no, I haven't raced in a couple years since I now have close to a 800hp small block (w/n2o, 520hp on motor.) But Imagine it will 1/4 mile ok compared to the sub 400hp stock type motor. And the new motor was about $5k to build from scratch and its built well to stay together with n2o. A 400 plus inch 500hp (at 5k rpm) sbf is realatively easy and cheap nowadays. And the dyno'd torque was above 500 ftlbs from 3500 up. It would turn well over 600 hp on motor if I wanted to spin 6k rpms, but I don't for a lake boat so I cam'd down accordingly.
Just my exp with smallblocks in jets. Can't say I don't like the BB's either, I worked on em for many years in college when I was a marine mech, including blown bb flatties, etc.
jd
And yes, you can make 500hp cheaper with few touches to a stock big block for less, but $5k for 800hp n2o in a small block that should last years ain't all that bad.

[twowheeledfish]

that pic is throwing me off cause that has a tunnel style cowling on it. You sure thats a sport???
We've certainly built all kinds of variations in the past but I would swear thats a 21 tunnel
I agree on the looks. Initially i was luke warm to the styling myself but that pic says it all, they can be very sleek gorgeous boats
Cheers
Man, I'm really trying to remember if the boat's a tunnel. It was sold a few months ago, so I haven't seen it in awhile. I want one just like it with a steptech. I'm leaning towards big block power though.

[QuickJet]

Man, I'm really trying to remember if the boat's a tunnel. It was sold a few months ago, so I haven't seen it in awhile. I want one just like it with a steptech. I'm leaning towards big block power though.
Is that an Eliminator in your Avatar? It looks similar to a Turbo one that I've seen at CFW.

[twowheeledfish]

Is that an Eliminator in your Avatar? It looks similar to a Turbo one that I've seen at CFW.
Sure is! '78 Bubbledeck, 460 powered.... and getting a new interior as a type this.

[NUTHIN]

my buddy has one of those rollbar 14' jets with a 427 sm block chevy single carb deal. it DOES 100+ mph like NOW! and makes a k-boat look silly trying to turn. he would be heading toward shore trukkin right along and the next thing you know hes heading in the opposite direction at the drop of a dime. It looked like a rat trying to get out of a maze. he handed more people there ass at the lake that weekend:jawdrop: Its no 8sec qrtr mile boat but it sure as hell LOOKED like one. Plus that thing could damn near do everything a jetski does.:D

[QuickJet]

my buddy has one of those rollbar 14' jets with a 427 sm block chevy single carb deal. it DOES 100+ mph like NOW! and makes a k-boat look silly trying to turn. he would be heading toward shore trukkin right along and the next thing you know hes heading in the opposite direction at the drop of a dime. It looked like a rat trying to get out of a maze. he handed more people there ass at the lake that weekend:jawdrop: Its no 8sec qrtr mile boat but it sure as hell LOOKED like one. Plus that thing could damn near do everything a jetski does.:D
The "916" has entered the building. :D
Welcome back.
Hows the 1/4 pounder comin along? Don't make it too fast, I might have to buy that one from yah too ;)

[stoker2001]

And the new motor was about $5k to build from scratch and its built well to stay together with n2o. A 400 plus inch 500hp (at 5k rpm) sbf is realatively easy and cheap nowadays. And the dyno'd torque was above 500 ftlbs from 3500 up. It would turn well over 600 hp on motor if I wanted to spin 6k rpms, but I don't for a lake boat so I cam'd down accordingly.
.
jd
And yes, you can make 500hp cheaper with few touches to a stock big block for less, but $5k for 800hp n2o in a small block that should last years ain't all that bad.My thoughts exactly.The 351 based SBF these days and ages can be had for dirt cheap and stroked for even cheapor to make 500ft pounds torque on pump gas all day long (talking factory blocks here).And IMHO they will be more reliable then SBC because of the taller deck hieght=longer rods and better rod/stroke ratio

[biggraypig]

Couple more questions.
So, what I am reading is a small block will work because of the lighter wieght, and it may improve my handeling.
This is used as a lake boat pulling skiers, and the occasional full throttle blast. I understand the Olds has oiling issues, so when my kids blow it up maybee a higher RPM engine would be better.
Would the gas mileage be much better?, and is that Jungle girl in Jungle boys boat?
Thanks for all the input.

[stoker2001]

I am not partial to SBFs:D Had this "war wagon"for 28 years,ya i am an old fart.It has a 302 based stroker to 333cu inch and has Air Flow research aluminum heads and makes an easy 400hp.It sees lots of street duty with some road race open track.If my main priority was dragging,i would have went with a 351W based stroker,but the 333 is about a 100 pounds lighter and really helps in the cornering http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1052phoenix06_004.jpg

[QuickJet]

Couple more questions.
So, what I am reading is a small block will work because of the lighter wieght, and it may improve my handeling.
This is used as a lake boat pulling skiers, and the occasional full throttle blast. I understand the Olds has oiling issues, so when my kids blow it up maybee a higher RPM engine would be better.
Would the gas mileage be much better?, and is that Jungle girl in Jungle boys boat?
Thanks for all the input.
The boats that they are working in are lighter ones.
They are spending lots of money on them as well. The lack of grunt torque will offset any weight savings in YOUR boat. Dump the Olds and find yourself a good 454. You will be quite happy with the results.

[NUTHIN]

The "916" has entered the building. :D
Welcome back.
Hows the 1/4 pounder comin along? Don't make it too fast, I might have to buy that one from yah too ;)yeah the old yellow and orange bote is going to see some water here shortly. should make for a great family boat:D

[NUTHIN]

Welcome to my world :D
The jet ski will hold more people and that is all it can do betterso are the boats that you run and the boat my buddy has are they the same sort of layup? he ran the track delio with the navigator. now he just rips around the lakes tormenting people:D

[71tahiti]

Original question was big block or small block and he is in a SIDEWINDER!!!! I am interested in info on this hull NOT a Metal boat or other glass hulls.. Stay on Thread or Start another......

[pw_Tony]

Original question was big block or small block and he is in a SIDEWINDER!!!! I am interested in info on this hull NOT a Metal boat or other glass hulls.. Stay on Thread or Start another......
He didn't ask for his boat, he asked in general. And this is a good argument since the beer can guys can prove a small block can work good in there boats. SB vs BB. So weh:boxingguy

[Xerophobic]

Where's the "what he said" smiley??????
Cheers

[bottom feeder]

Original question was big block or small block and he is in a SIDEWINDER!!!! I am interested in info on this hull NOT a Metal boat or other glass hulls.. Stay on Thread or Start another......
Go BBC. The marine parts are a bit easyer and cheaper to find used. Will be your best bang for the buck. Dont go crazy building a motor you dont have the hull to support.

[bottom feeder]

Couple more questions.
So, what I am reading is a small block will work because of the lighter wieght, and it may improve my handeling.
This is used as a lake boat pulling skiers, and the occasional full throttle blast. I understand the Olds has oiling issues, so when my kids blow it up maybee a higher RPM engine would be better.
Would the gas mileage be much better?, and is that Jungle girl in Jungle boys boat?
Thanks for all the input.
For what you are doing with the boat stick with the olds. For the money and time spent converting to BBC or SBC you can have a reliable 5000 rpm olds.
Oiling issues are less than some would have you belive.
Best of luck with your project

[71tahiti]

Is the sidewinder hull not a good hull for higher speeds?:jawdrop: