Effects of shoe change

[PC Rat]

Since I haven't sold my Placecraft, I might as well keep after the triple digit goal. I haven't messed with hardware changes too much, but enough to bring it to 96 mph. After seeing my boat on video, it looks like the water is breaking almost 4' forward of the transom, so I need to get it to run drier. At WOT there was over 40 psi of intake pressure, which I am guessing is more than enough. The biting edge of the 2 degree backcut shoe is 1/16" below keel line, and I have noticed no ill handling at shutdown. My loader also has a blocker that is about 4 inches long, and parallel to keel.
I was thinking of going to a 3 degree backcut shoe that is about 1/2" longer to close off the intake a little, and starting with the biting edge the same 1/16" below keel.
Is this too much change? Not enough?
Brian
For sale:

[RCB19]

Your current setup is idetical to mine. I tried a 2.5* backcut with positive results. The opening of that one was closed off 1/2" also. Rideplate was set at 5*. Going to a 3* backcut is a pretty radical change from what you have now. The 2.5 made a huge difference in lifting my boat. Try the 3* but be carefull. I've always believed in making small changes at a time. Every boat reacts differently.

[Cs19]

I installed a .030 shim on time, it was crazy. :)

[sleekcrafter]

I have a 3 degree b/c on mine, I think it's a bit much, or maybe I need a b/c with a taper. Still looking for the sweet spot :crossx:
Sleek

[UBFJ #454]

"maybe I need a b/c with a taper."
That I Gotta See!

[IMPATIENT 1]

What's A Good Ride Plate Angle With A 1/16th Below Keel?i'm At 2 From What I've Read In The Above Posts,2's Not Enough.i Run A Heavy Lake (18ft.)vhull With A 12je, Shoe And Ride Plate Kit,divertor,ss Loader.it Runs In The 80's But It Fells Like It Still Too Wet.

[Cs19]

"maybe I need a b/c with a taper."
That is what Chet Capoli runs, he swears by them.

[sleekcrafter]

That is what Chet Capoli runs, he swears by them.
So what? they don't exist? I've talked to several people that have tried them, or run them.
Sleek

[Cs19]

Sleek, Im unfamiliar with them, thats all.
I would think it would confuse the boat, but I dont know since Ive never ran one.

[sleekcrafter]

Sleek, Im unfamiliar with them, thats all.
I would think it would confuse the boat, but I dont know since Ive never ran one.
My ride plate looks like a leaf spring with 5 degrees up on the plate. thats just one reason, I would consider one. The other reason is the boat rides too flat, gets tippy at 92mph.
Sleek

[steelcomp]

Wow...I'm hearing some new stuff, here. Keep posting you guys...this is getting interesting.
Tapered backcut. Pretty interesting stuff.
Sleek...help me understand why you think a tapered backcut shoe will help solve your rideplate looking like a leafspring issue? :idea:

[Duane HTP]

Good one CS-19. Put a mark on the wall!

[steelcomp]

Sleek, Im unfamiliar with them, thats all.
I would think it would confuse the boat, but I dont know since Ive never ran one.Confuse the boat? You make it dound like the boat has the ability to reason. Boat: "Hmmm....what should I do, here...well, let's see, I have a taper, and a backcut...OOOOHHHHH!!!! I'm just so confused!!! :D

[Cs19]

Confuse the boat? You make it dound like the boat has the ability to reason. Boat: "Hmmm....what should I do, here...well, let's see, I have a taper, and a backcut...OOOOHHHHH!!!! I'm just so confused!!! :D
LOL, you know what i mean

[RCB19]

5* plate angle works on my boat and setup but it might not work well on yours. Every boat is different and reacts to setup changes differently. V bottom boats do tend to like more plate angle than tunnel boats do though. I have come a long way with my setup but I'm far from being done. Hope to get much closer to the sweet spot this season. If your rideplate looks like a leafspring try adding some stiffners to it. Maybee you already have them.

[steelcomp]

LOL, you know what i mean
'Course. :D

[NELSON#109]

Ive Made Big Back Cut Changes With Mine, And Havent Had Any Big Gains, Loses, Or Had Any Ugly Handling Problems... I Think Any Gains Ive Seen Have Come From Closing It Of. But, I Have Watched Chris's Boat React Big Time To Even Small Changes. The Only Ill Effects Ive Had By Making Changes Is By Lowering The Shoe.... I Crept It Down Till It Had A Bit Of A Hop At The End Of The Track... A Little Scary, But I Found Out How Far I Could Go Down By Making Small Changes In Shoe Depth. I See Around 80 Lbs On The Intake Now. But, I Only Have A Max Preasure Capture Gauge, And That Could Be A Spike. Although, It Is Consistant. My Cp Tunnel Hasnt Acted Up On Me With Back Cut Changes.

[BUSBY]

Ive Made Big Back Cut Changes With Mine, And Havent Had Any Big Gains, Loses, Or Had Any Ugly Handling Problems... I Think Any Gains Ive Seen Have Come From Closing It Of. But, I Have Watched Chris's Boat React Big Time To Even Small Changes. The Only Ill Effects Ive Had By Making Changes Is By Lowering The Shoe.... I Crept It Down Till It Had A Bit Of A Hop At The End Of The Track... A Little Scary, But I Found Out How Far I Could Go Down By Making Small Changes In Shoe Depth. I See Around 80 Lbs On The Intake Now. But, I Only Have A Max Preasure Capture Gauge, And That Could Be A Spike. Although, It Is Consistant. My Cp Tunnel Hasnt Acted Up On Me With Back Cut Changes.
WOW! A serious post from Nelson? Something must be wrong with the alignment of the planets!

[steelcomp]

Since I haven't sold my Placecraft, I might as well keep after the triple digit goal. I haven't messed with hardware changes too much, but enough to bring it to 96 mph. After seeing my boat on video, it looks like the water is breaking almost 4' forward of the transom, so I need to get it to run drier. At WOT there was over 40 psi of intake pressure, which I am guessing is more than enough. The biting edge of the 2 degree backcut shoe is 1/16" below keel line, and I have noticed no ill handling at shutdown. My loader also has a blocker that is about 4 inches long, and parallel to keel.
I was thinking of going to a 3 degree backcut shoe that is about 1/2" longer to close off the intake a little, and starting with the biting edge the same 1/16" below keel.
Is this too much change? Not enough?
Brian
For sale:The Bahner and the PC are very similar. I was seeing 96-97 on my speedo at the lake, and ran 93 at Ming. (Verified the speedo as dead nuts accurate...at least by Ming's speed trap) I had to make my own shoes as my intake was machined a little different than most. I ran 2* backcut, with an opening of 13 5/8" (from the front edge of the loader relief), 5* ride plate, 3.5* nozzle, and one of Jack's custom loaders. (It was a loaner, and I don't remember anything about it) Also, my tunnel plates are 1/16" up at the back edge, from straight with the tunnel. Now remember, I had cast iron heads, full interior, stainless 15 gal side tanks, etc, so there was a lot of weight that i was trying to carry. I'm thinking I was running near 600 hp to the pump, spinning a stock Berk B to about 6150, maybe 6200 (at the lake, in cool springtime air, about 875') , and an MPD prepped B (more like an AB) to 5500 (at Ming in Sept., 3700' DA) Using my Bahner as a comparison, your PC should run well over 100. My last run at Ming saw about the last 24" of boat in the water, so I think there was still a long way to go. Of course, maybe not...with the weight and power I had, it may not have goten much better, but I think there were a couple more mph there to be had. Now, it's a whole new ball game. :D Sometimes I wish I has spent more time tweaking that setup just to see how good it would have gotten.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1729ming_04a.jpg

[steelcomp]

Ive Made Big Back Cut Changes With Mine, And Havent Had Any Big Gains, Loses, Or Had Any Ugly Handling Problems... I Think Any Gains Ive Seen Have Come From Closing It Of. But, I Have Watched Chris's Boat React Big Time To Even Small Changes. The Only Ill Effects Ive Had By Making Changes Is By Lowering The Shoe.... I Crept It Down Till It Had A Bit Of A Hop At The End Of The Track... A Little Scary, But I Found Out How Far I Could Go Down By Making Small Changes In Shoe Depth. I See Around 80 Lbs On The Intake Now. But, I Only Have A Max Preasure Capture Gauge, And That Could Be A Spike. Although, It Is Consistant. My Cp Tunnel Hasnt Acted Up On Me With Back Cut Changes.OK...who are you and what have you done with Nelson????
Shit! Nelson's been abducted by aliens, and they've sent an imposter!!! :220v:

[UBFJ #454]

"What's A Good Ride Plate Angle With A 1/16th Below Keel?"
Anything below the keel produces significant Drag and Slows a jet boat down ... Not seeing any particular boat in person, I wouldn't offer anything other than generalities on a SetUp.
More than 3 degrees of ride plate in any boat makes me Nervous (Fly Over)... High ride plate with Back Cut Shoes are counter productive ... A back cut provides lift ... Up ride plate allows the transom to rock back and down. Another way to get lift is to run a slight bit of down nozzle ... not too much as you'll lose forward thrust ... just a bit ... below 1 1/2 degrees ... better if under 1 degree ... I'm talking about a heavier Tunnel (650+ bare hull w/moderate Hp ... 650 to 850 Hp), not a V-Bottom.

[MikeF]

WOW! A serious post from Nelson? Something must be wrong with the alignment of the planets!
Ever since Chinese New Year.....ALOT of WEIRD things have been happening!! :chi:

[Dogballs]

LOL, you know what i mean
Shoe???????????? Converse or Vans :mad:

[LVjetboy]

Steel,
Your rpm numbers (and engine power) haven't matched in my mind since you first posted them. I've wondered here's why...
You posted you're thinking the engine put about 600 hp to the pump. To me that sounds about right considering your top end mid to high 90's. And spinning a stock berk b to 6100 is about 600 hp. So far so good.
Then you ran Ming at a DA of 3700' with the same cut yet MPD detailed...you posted it only spun to 5500. That's a huge drop in rpm for the same cut even if detailed. According to stock charts 5500 = 450 hp. As a point of reference, my PC runs 85 mph at 5500 rpm with an MPD detailed Berk B. It also runs 100 mph at 6200 with that same MPD Berk B, just add more throttle.
Side note: v-drives faster? Comparing power vs speed here's a few...
"It took about 650 hp to make my Sanger run 100."
"LS6 450hp turned 6500rpn to 6700 rpm ran 87mph, most days."
But I digress.
Even IF an "MPD detailed" B impeller runs a half cut larger (A/B) 5500 rpm is still only 480 hp. September Lake Ming high DA accounts for about a 40 hp loss so if you have 600 hp that's 560 hp not 450 or 480 hp. Although many say detailed runs larger, I've yet to see a test proving a detailed impeller runs a half cut larger than stock with other variables equal. I suppose it's possible depending on intake loading or other factors, just haven't seen hard numbers yet.
"Using my Bahner as a comparison, your PC should run well over 100."
Unless your engine power's the same as his, it's tough to compare. If your old engine really was 600 hp, then your Bahner's performance may not compare to PCrat's Placecraft. Last I knew, Brian was turning a Berk B/C cut to 5700 at 95.4 mph. That rpm seems a bit low for what I'd expect a B/C cut to turn at 95 mph, but that's what he gave me. I'm not saying his numbers are more or less accurate than yours, just saying something doesn't match.
jer

[HBjet]

I just put my left shoe on my right foot... big change... I don't think I'm ready for that. I'm going to change it back :rollside:

[steelcomp]

Jer, I don't disagree that the numbers don't make sense, but those are the numbers. Many changes from the lake to the track, so I can't say it was purely the impeller detail and DA change that effected the rpm. Different loader, backcut shoe, also may have added to better pump loading. DA change plus the different cut could suck up quite a bit of hp, plus, that motor may have been making <500 hp at 5500. Never dynoed to know. The 6100 rpm was at about 850' elevation, early in the AM, and in the evening in the spring. Very good air. All I know is that at 5500, I went 93.2 mph, and ran 11.39.
My comment about brian's boat was regarding his motor build and (assumed) boat weight compred to mine. He has aluminum heads, better intake, custom DNE roller cam, belt drive, B/C cut, fiberglass buckets, etc. I had iron heads, flat tappet cam, outdated tunnel ram, full interior, detailed B cut, etc, yet the performance numbers seem more reaistic with my combination. After reading the particulars on his boat, I was always surprised it wasn't a lot faster. Not only is 5700 low for 95 mph, but IMO, it's low for the HP that motor should be putting out. With all that is listed on that motor, it should be spinning a B/C over or at least near 6000. On the other hand, I was less disappointed with my Bahner's performance after making other similar comparisons. For what it was, I think it ran pretty darn well. I think with some set up work, Brian's boat oughta haull ass.Steel,
Your rpm numbers (and engine power) haven't matched in my mind since you first posted them. I've wondered here's why...
You posted you're thinking the engine put about 600 hp to the pump. To me that sounds about right considering your top end mid to high 90's. And spinning a stock berk b to 6100 is about 600 hp. So far so good.
Then you ran Ming at a DA of 3700' with the same cut yet MPD detailed...you posted it only spun to 5500. That's a huge drop in rpm for the same cut even if detailed. According to stock charts 5500 = 450 hp. As a point of reference, my PC runs 85 mph at 5500 rpm with an MPD detailed Berk B. It also runs 100 mph at 6200 with that same MPD Berk B, just add more throttle.
Side note: v-drives faster? Comparing power vs speed here's a few...
"It took about 650 hp to make my Sanger run 100."
"LS6 450hp turned 6500rpn to 6700 rpm ran 87mph, most days."
But I digress.
Even IF an "MPD detailed" B impeller runs a half cut larger (A/B) 5500 rpm is still only 480 hp. September Lake Ming high DA accounts for about a 40 hp loss so if you have 600 hp that's 560 hp not 450 or 480 hp. Although many say detailed runs larger, I've yet to see a test proving a detailed impeller runs a half cut larger than stock with other variables equal. I suppose it's possible depending on intake loading or other factors, just haven't seen hard numbers yet.
"Using my Bahner as a comparison, your PC should run well over 100."
Unless your engine power's the same as his, it's tough to compare. If your old engine really was 600 hp, then your Bahner's performance may not compare to PCrat's Placecraft. Last I knew, Brian was turning a Berk B/C cut to 5700 at 95.4 mph. That rpm seems a bit low for what I'd expect a B/C cut to turn at 95 mph, but that's what he gave me. I'm not saying his numbers are more or less accurate than yours, just saying something doesn't match.
jer

[bp]

Since I haven't sold my Placecraft, I might as well keep after the triple digit goal. I haven't messed with hardware changes too much, but enough to bring it to 96 mph. After seeing my boat on video, it looks like the water is breaking almost 4' forward of the transom, so I need to get it to run drier. At WOT there was over 40 psi of intake pressure, which I am guessing is more than enough. The biting edge of the 2 degree backcut shoe is 1/16" below keel line, and I have noticed no ill handling at shutdown. My loader also has a blocker that is about 4 inches long, and parallel to keel.
I was thinking of going to a 3 degree backcut shoe that is about 1/2" longer to close off the intake a little, and starting with the biting edge the same 1/16" below keel.
Is this too much change? Not enough?
Brian
brian, i run a 2 degree, and go to a 3 degree when i need it, but that's generally in combination with some other things i do to the setup. in your case, i wouldn't hesitate to go to a 3 degree, because it will help, but you'll probably need to do some other things as well. what's the rest of the pump look like? 4' coming off the side is just way too much drag.
scott, if that pic is wot through the lights, there's at least 3-4 mph lost in drag right there.
jer, the hp/rpm/imp stuff is all good, but setup affecting lift/drag has a dramatic affect on mph, both +/-.

[steelcomp]

brian, i run a 2 degree, and go to a 3 degree when i need it, but that's generally in combination with some other things i do to the setup. in your case, i wouldn't hesitate to go to a 3 degree, because it will help, but you'll probably need to do some other things as well. what's the rest of the pump look like? 4' coming off the side is just way too much drag.
scott, if that pic is wot through the lights, there's at least 3-4 mph lost in drag right there.
jer, the hp/rpm/imp stuff is all good, but setup affecting lift/drag has a dramatic affect on mph, both +/-.
Hey Bob,
Yeah, I knew there was more to be had there, and wish sometimes I had stuck with that program just to see how fast it wouild have gotten. I was just getting started. It would have been a great learning curve, but...well...you know the rest. :rolleyes: Live and learn. In keeping with this thread, I think it's amazing how much speed and quickness most boats are leaving on the table due to hardware and set-up issues.

[Cs19]

I think it's amazing how much speed and quickness most boats are leaving on the table due to hardware and set-up issues.
Isnt that the truth..
Ill admit crawling under a dripping wet boat isnt fun, but if you want to get the most out of something, you gotta do it.

[LVjetboy]

"jer, the hp/rpm/imp stuff is all good, but setup affecting lift/drag has a dramatic affect on mph, both +/-"
Bp, of course it does.
Aero and water drag have a huge effect on performance. I posted to Steel's comment about Brian's top speed compared to his Bahner based on power, nothing more. Steel knows engine combos better than me and no doubt PCrat also.
Yet from the info they gave me, Brian's engine puts less power to the impeller than Steels. In other words, if Steel runs more power than PCrat, why does Steel expect PCrat's PlaceCraft to run over 100 compared to his Bahner if their hull's are similar in lift and drag and Brian gets his setup dialed? Sure setup can offset less power but that's no guarantee especially if Steel runs 100 or more hp.
Of course they're free to clearify. Steel did, but not PCrat so far.
jer

[steelcomp]

Isnt that the truth..
Ill admit crawling under a dripping wet boat isnt fun, but if you want to get the most out of something, you gotta do it.Yeah...you've done your fair share of that! I think you're one of the best examples of just how much can be gained by set-up changes. You and Bandy in the Hallet.

[steelcomp]

"jer, the hp/rpm/imp stuff is all good, but setup affecting lift/drag has a dramatic affect on mph, both +/-"
Bp, of course it does.
Aero and water drag have a huge effect on performance. I posted to Steel's comment about Brian's top speed compared to his Bahner based on power, nothing more. Steel knows engine combos better than me and no doubt PCrat also.
Yet from the info they gave me, Brian's engine puts less power to the impeller than Steels. In other words, if Steel runs more power than PCrat, why does Steel expect PCrat's PlaceCraft to run over 100 if their hull's compare in lift and drag and Brian gets his setup dialed? Sure setup can offset less power but that's no guarantee especially if Steel runs 100 or more hp.
Of course they're free to clearify. Steel did, but not PCrat so far.
jer
Sure setup can offset less power but that's no guarantee especially if Steel runs 100 or more hp.
I just don't see how I could have been making that much more hp than Brian. I mean, my 467 was no slouch, for sure, but it shouldn't even compare to the motor in Brian's boat, unless he's just got something completely wrong with his combination. (heads, cam, carbs, etc). If he is truely only making 500 hp, then there's something very wrong there. It would be difficult to get that boat much further out of the water with that HP. But if you think about it, he's running high 90's with that much boat in the water...that motor's gotta be making some good power. When my boat ran that wet in '03, I couldn't break 85 mph.
For the sake of the thread, here's the difference between a non-adjustable one-piece shoe/rideplate set-up (that I found out later was actually 1* tapered)...
Ming, '03
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1729ming292103.jpg
...and a 2* backcut shoe shimmed to the right depth, a good loader, and the ride plate and nozzle somewhere near where they should be.
Ming, '04
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1729ming_04a.jpg
Jer, good to have you back. :D

[PC Rat]

Steel,
It's kind of funny to read about the "evolution" of your boat, because it sounds a lot like mine setup wise (except for your new bad ass engine).
When I bought my boat it had a 461, with iron heads, TR2X and 650s, Ultradyne 286/300 .685/.670 107 Roller Cam and it ran 79mph at 6100 rpm with a B/C impeller that had been done by MPD many years ago and tapered shoe. After a couple trips to the lake, I eventually got it to run 87.8mph just by adjusting the ride plate, tunnel plates, and borrowing a pair of 850s, (air could have been better to). Then the thrust bearing went out in the pump and took out the impeller and suction housing, as well as the crankshaft in the engine.
MPD detailed a new stainless B/C impeller for me and I bought a 2* back cut shoe and a loader that aimed much higher on the impeller, MPD also machined the nozzle for inserts.
I had a local machine shop rebuild my short block .060 over with about 11.75:1 pistons. I put on a set of Dart Pro 1 325cc heads, Victor Ram and back to the 650s. This combo ran 93.4 mph at 5700rpm (this was with a new tach). One weird thing when I ran this number is that when I let off the gas pedal slightly the boat went faster - the 93.4.
The ports in the tunnel ram were bigger than the heads, so the next season I sent them both to McKray for porting and bought the DNE cam which was close in duration but more lift and wider lobe separation than the Ultradyne. This combo with a little more hardware tuning got me 96.0 mph.
I thought I would turn more rpms than 5700 and when I ran the numbers by Jack (BC cut/5700rpm/96mph) he just said that was pretty efficient. I should try it with a different tach to back it up.
I haven't messed around with the hardware or GPS'd it in a couple years, if I get the time I will again.
After watching the video again, the ride looks pretty close to Steelcomps Bahner picture.
I can send somebody the video if they want to host it.
Brian

[LVjetboy]

How big's the video...I might have enough space.
jer

[PC Rat]

1.67mb

[bp]

i remember that video. tight. how about a profile pic of the pump and rear quarter of the boat on the trailer, and just a pick of the pump/transom?
just for grins, here's a little vid thing.. http://dragboatracing.com/

[PC Rat]

http://www.jetheaven.us/photopost/data/500/98PUMP_SIDE.jpg

[PC Rat]

http://www.jetheaven.us/photopost/data/500/98Back01-med.jpg
For Sale:

[sdba069]

Our old junkie Placecraft will only run 135 MPH . I hope to pick it up a little from the 4.29 1/8th mile times it's been running. Any ideas what I can do to pick it up a little. No backcut here and don't ask where it is in relation to the keel, you wouldn't believe it.

[PC Rat]

Our old junkie Placecraft will only run 135 MPH .
Hey, thanks for trying to make me feel better.

[UBFJ #454]

"No backcut here and don't ask where it is in relation to the keel, you wouldn't believe it."
OK Garry, I'll 'Bite' ... How far up in the 'Hole' are you running the Flat Shoe on your PlaceCraft?

[Rondane]

Hey, thanks for trying to make me feel better.
Maybe you would feel better if you started working with this guy. 135mph is pretty impressive, especially with the same boat you have. Seems to know a little more than what you are working with now. What are you thinkin? :D
rondane

[steelcomp]

"No backcut here and don't ask where it is in relation to the keel, you wouldn't believe it."
OK Garry, I'll 'Bite' ... How far up in the 'Hole' are you running the Flat Shoe on your PlaceCraft?
:D :D
How 'bout a pic of " 'ol junkie".

[steelcomp]

Maybe you would feel better if you started working with this guy. 135mph is pretty impressive, especially with the same boat you have. Seems to know a little more than what you are working with now. What are you thinkin? :D rondaneI guess the extra thousand hp helps a little. :rolleyes:

[sdba069]

It ran 7.90 @129 on this pass. This is from 2003. I like the helmet.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312SD1.jpg

[sdba069]

This is the one that we finished late last year but haven't run it yet. We'll have it at Waco in April.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312RH2.jpg

[sdba069]

About the shoe........ It's not"up" in the hole. All I'll say is that we spent several races adding shoe depth till it ran it's best and didn't do stupid things and then built a shoe that thickness. It's way down. The boat goes and stops straight with no bounce or porpoise.

[Cs19]

Anyone played with a dropped keep on a Placecraft?
It seems they need ton of shoe to work.

[LVjetboy]

Here's the video of Brian's Placecraft...
Placecraft speed run (http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/PCRun.ASF)
jer

[UBFJ #454]

"Anyone played with a dropped keep on a Placecraft?"
Yepper ... Way back when.
Boat had a Slight 'California Style' dropped keel with uniquely shaped entry with a matched loader setup and ran a significantly bc shoe up in the hole. Hull was heavy (Approx. 650 lbs.) but, boat was Quick & Fast ... If Jerry had ever run it in 'Hot Tub', he would have just cleared the 1/8 th while it was going through the traps on the big end (course, boat had about 2 1/2 times the Hp Jerry's running). Ask Jeff about it, not sure he didn't do the bottom?

[PC Rat]

Maybe you would feel better if you started working with this guy. 135mph is pretty impressive, especially with the same boat you have. Seems to know a little more than what you are working with now. What are you thinkin? :D
rondane
I was being sarcastic!!!!!!!!!!!!
His boat is 40 mph faster than mine and he calls it an old junkie Placecraft.
That's what I was thinkin'.........

[bp]

"Anyone played with a dropped keep on a Placecraft?"
Yepper ... Way back when.
Boat had a Slight 'California Style' dropped keel with uniquely shaped entry with a matched loader setup and ran a significantly bc shoe up in the hole. Hull was heavy (Approx. 650 lbs.) but, boat was Quick & Fast ... If Jerry had ever run it in 'Hot Tub', he would have just cleared the 1/8 th while it was going through the traps on the big end (course, boat had about 2 1/2 times the Hp Jerry's running). Ask Jeff about it, not sure he didn't do the bottom?
cool.. never heard of a 3.7 sec 1/4 miler before. got some pics? :cool:

[sleekcrafter]

cool.. never heard of a 3.7 sec 1/4 miler before. got some pics? :cool:
The clocks were set to central time :D :D
Sleek

[UBFJ #454]

bp -
"cool.. never heard of a 3.7 sec 1/4 miler before. got some pics? "
No body said 3.7 in the 1/4 mile ... Check Jerry's Time Slips for the 1/8th ... Anyone who runs a 4.0, or a 4.1 to the 1/8th against him (He's never done better than a 4.1+ a few)... He, Jerry, Loses ... Go Figure about a 6.98 1/4 mile time ... !
Placecraft's Bottom's (the last portion) are the only thing close to ours ... Needs LIFT ... Ask Jeff about what he remembers about the 'SetUp' on the boat I'm reffering to ... or Better, call Placecraft and talk to F ... Always an Interesting Conversation.
Oh Yeah, My SPAM Blocker blocked your 'Link' to Simm's Site ... Again, Our Congratulatios!

[steelcomp]

About the shoe........ It's not"up" in the hole. All I'll say is that we spent several races adding shoe depth till it ran it's best and didn't do stupid things and then built a shoe that thickness. It's way down. The boat goes and stops straight with no bounce or porpoise.
Thanks Garry...thanks for the pictures, too.

[UBFJ #454]

"Thanks Garry...thanks for the pictures, too."
I'll Second That ... Thank You!

[MikeC]

Hey Brian, Lot's of good stuff here
After years of thinking about it, the only advice I can say would be,
figure out how to get the hull to use the Ride plate for what it was designed for, Lift (aka Ride Plate).
:cool:
MikeC
PS: if your ride plate ain't pitted, you've waisted your money for it. Just my opinion.
Your Place is Awsome!
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11315&stc=1

[bp]

bp -
Check Jerry's Time Slips for the 1/8th ... Anyone who runs a 4.0, or a 4.1 to the 1/8th against him (He's never done better than a 4.1+ a few)... He, Jerry, Loses ... Go Figure about a 6.98 1/4 mile time ... !
thanks for the congrats jak.
never say never. what i'll say about never is... you've NEVER seen jerry run to the 1/8 on the bottle. ever. don't count what you see as "all there is"...

[MikeC]

Hey BP, how the weather in AZ treaten ya's?
MC

[bp]

Hey BP, how the weather in AZ treaten ya's?
MC
great to see ya here bud. wish i WAS in az already, not quite there yet. we were there for a couple weeks, but back on the coast. sign goes up this weekend (finally), so it'll be whenever after that. after two weeks over there, i am reddddddyyyyyy. whaddup wit you????

[bp]

of course, this thread has completely gone to heck for poor brian... sorry bri.

[garret]

Here is the nicest placecraft out there right now! The boat runs around 130 mph!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/731DSC00587.JPG

[placecrafttim]

Here is the nicest placecraft out there right now! The boat runs around 130 mph!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/731DSC00587.JPG
That thing shur is sweet. It looks like the same guy who rigged mine did that one as well. Anyone know what year it is?
Here is a pic of mine w/temp power. Will be runnin around 850 n/a hp very soon. I know its not blown inj. w/zoomies but it will do.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/2/3445Hogan_009-med.jpg

[Red Rocket]

Did you buy that boat from Monte in the Temecula area.

[PC Rat]

of course, this thread has completely gone to heck for poor brian... sorry bri.
And here are the nominations for what the title of this thread should have been:
What kind of sneakers do you wear?
What happened to Nelson?
How’s the weather there?
Where did you buy your boat?
Who has a nicer and faster boat than PC Rat?
Let’s PM some pictures to everyone except the person seeking advice.
How fast does Hot Tub run at each section of the track?
Just kidding around, I really don't mind, there's still some good advice here.
But I'd still like to hear any more advice/thoughts on getting this boat out of the water.
What about closing off the intake a little to gain more backcut area?
Also, if the shoe is 1/16" below the keel, and my loader hangs down 1/4", isn't the loader ramps blocking the shoe from doing it's job?
Brian

[cyclone]

And here are the nominations for what the title of this thread should have been:
What kind of sneakers do you wear?
What happened to Nelson?
How’s the weather there?
Where did you buy your boat?
Who has a nicer and faster boat than PC Rat?
Let’s PM some pictures to everyone except the person seeking advice.
How fast does Hot Tub run at each section of the track?
Just kidding around, I really don't mind, there's still some good advice here.
But I'd still like to hear any more advice/thoughts on getting this boat out of the water.
What about closing off the intake a little to gain more backcut area?
Also, if the shoe is 1/16" below the keel, and my loader hangs down 1/4", isn't the loader ramps blocking the shoe from doing it's job?
Brian
Maybe DJDPlacecraft will chime in here. His placecraft was aired out pretty good. If i'm not mistaken his shoe was dropped substantially below the keel too.

[Cs19]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/2/3445Hogan_009-med.jpg
I saw this boat at the river last season. Maybe at CBBB? I dont remember, but I never forget a boat and this one stands out in my mind. It was rigged beautifully and the gel was perfect. The boat was completly sano. The owner was trying to sell it at the time.
I think I see Peterson written on the transom, hes probably the guy who rigged it, same with the red/white PC,he does nice work and from what i hear h he just opened up a shop in Havi.
CS

[Cs19]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312RH2.jpg
SDBA, Why the rooster booster? and is that an R intake?

[LVjetboy]

"Maybe DJDPlacecraft will chime in here. His placecraft was aired out pretty good. If i'm not mistaken his shoe was dropped substantially below the keel too."
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DJDPC.jpg
That shot probably the most "aired out" from the video...not really a smooth run. The best times I have from DJD (10/20/2004)...not necessarily this run: 109.69 mph 9.64 et
As far as I know he never posted rpm's or impeller cut or any setup details. So no idea what his power was or how close to "ideal setup" for his hull to get those numbers.
jer

[LVjetboy]

Another Placecraft loose...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/JerLoose.gif
That only at 83 mph.
Yet another Placecraft at speed...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/MikeLoose.gif
Seems pretty loose too...mid 80 mph. More tail the better right? Usually, but for jet performance no. Is eyeballing "loose" a good measure of best setup? No doubt it's a measure of rightness, but eyeballing a pic or video or even eye-witnessing a track run somewhat subjective. Then there's the shot of a 170 mph PC...I have that video too.
Suppose it's a bit loose. :smile:
Although not nearly as visually loose as the above shots. My point is, eyeballing looseness from a still shot or video tough to draw conclusions. Better than nothing, but not a sure thing.
MikeC, good to hear from you. What ever happened to your PC? We've talked about ride plates and cavitation long ago, don't get me started. Not sure PCrat wants to hear about all that.
jer

[LVjetboy]

SDBA,
I don't mean to hijack Brians thread. But one thing BUGS me. Racers post at times. This and other forums. Often it's; here's my rig with mega hp. Implied: I'm not posting details because I'm a cool racer. (Not all, some like Bp or CS-19 share info freely)
Then when pushed for details say...can't really say. Mysterious. :confused: As in, go to the races and figure it out or ask me at the track or pm me 'cause, I don't like online controversy.
Some respond thanks Gary for the pictures maybe that thrown bone is what we waited for. Nice pic. Yet I'm thinking many who read threads like these and have similar hulls really want information, it's the internet. Many want to know why one thing or another worked for your hull, why it worked, how much power, intake pressure, loader depth and release trade-off vs shoe depth and so on. If you could really throw a bone.
Maybe your competition's online, maybe not. But jeez, most of us are lake/river boaters and care less about the track. There's track setup and lake setup, yet some things are common. The principles of pump loading...thrust, top speed and water conditions are something we all want to understand better. And we're posting on the net 'cause we're not at the lake or track. And some of us will never have access to data acquistion or measure under controlled conditions.
Brian's questions were good. Do you know the answers? Experiment or trial and error can optimize one setup yet without knowing why it works gives no insight for another configuration. Of course a 1200 hp engine setup at the track isn't the best for a 500 hp boat at the lake or river even with the same hull. But understanding the physics of what's happening even 1200 hp can carry over to other applications. So here I am trying to get some feedback from you without going to the track.
Maybe you want to keep what you know to yourself because hard-earned or knowing it without talking about it online is, well, cool. Whatever.
PCrat posted looking for info. I post stuff I think may be helpful, including other PC's, specs on my shoe depth and style, loader, plate angle, speed, holeshot, etc. Will you?
:yuk:
"I like the helmet" Ok, cool helmet. What about intake setup?
jer

[steelcomp]

SDBA,
I don't mean to hijack Brians thread. But one thing BUGS me. Racers post at times. This and other forums. Often it's; here's my rig with mega hp. Implied: I'm not posting any more details because I'm a cool racer. (Not like Bp who's shared much info freely in the past)
Then when pushed for info you say...you can't really say. Proprietary secret. Mysterious. As in, go to the track and figure it out for yourself. :confused:
Ya whatever.
Some respond thanks so much Gary for the pictures as if that thrown bone is what everyone waited for. Wow, nice pic, nuff said? Yet most here really want information too because it's the internet and a lot of guys with the same or similar hulls will read this thread. Many would like to know why one thing or another worked for your hull, why it worked, how much power, and so on. If you could really throw us a bone.
I know I know, your competition may be online just waiting to hear your secrets. But jeez, most of us are lake/river boaters and care less about the track. There's setup issues that don't work on track.
Brians questions were good. Maybe you don't really know the answers? Experiment or trial and error doesn't always lead to insight or truth behind the physics of why things work. A setup for a 1200 hp engine may not be best for a 500 hp enigne lake boat even the same hull.
Maybe you do know yet want to keep what you know hidden because hard-earned or knowing it without revealing it makes you seem wise or cool. Whatever.
PCrat posted looking for info. I post stuff I think may be helpful, including other PC's, my shoe depth and style, loader, plate angle, speed, holeshot, etc. Will you?
I doubt it. Racer secret after all. :yuk:
"I like the helmet"
Ok, cool, you like the helmet. What about intake setup?
jer
Jer, I've talked with Garry MANY times, as his PC's are the closest thing to my Bahner, and eventually I'm going blown alky. He's got some pretty damn fast boats (and cars) and is a great resource. He's given me EVERY detail I've ever asked for without hesitation, and offered HOURS of good advice. These boards can be less than friendly to someone who dosen't subscribe to the "west coast" way of doind things, and knowing Garry, he's not interested in the drama. Can't say I blame him. I mean, look...already, he's getting flamed.
BTW...I asked for the picture, remembre??? A picture is worth a thousand words.

[UBFJ #454]

Jer -
Your depiction of 'Racers' is totally unfair ... Sure there are a few that act as you've described, but, they are by far in the minority. Most racers will pretty much share their knowledge with and, help anyone they feel comfortable with ... They also help each other, even competitors in their own class, if there is a need ... Help in terms of setup and/or loaning each other parts.
Rather than take 'shots' at us, maybe you should come to a few Races ... come on into the pits and get to know us ... I know it would be a "Lively Discussion" based on what I read of your personality, but, I think you, and those you talk with, would gain something.
Note also that there a only a few Racers that post on this site or, for that matter, any other site ... Why? ... Each has their own reasons, but, some tell me that putting up with some of the nonesense that can arise from Forums just isn't worth it. Another thing is that most are well aware that it is virtually impossible to set, or, help set a boat up properly with out having 'Hands On' of a particular boat ... too many particulars idiocyncratic to a given boat. Generalities are about all anyone can expect ... One reason is that there may be some lack of communication of what is trying to be conveyed and that could lead to some very bad things occurring on the water and no one wants to feel responsible for that.
Again, I suggest that people that want information from racers should come to the races, come into our pit area and ask questions of us and look over our boats. As anyboby that knows me will tell you, our pit is always open to most everyone and our Crew has no problem talking with anyone about how we do things ... Hey, we generally benefit from such conversations also so don't be Shy ... "Come On Down". And, if someone can't make it to races and wants to talk to me about setting up a tunnel hull ... They call me @ Black Bear ... (602) 234-1818. Note we haven't gotten to the point of selling any Product or Services so I really don't have anything to gain ... i.e., My offer is not Spam (and my ego doesn't need 'Jackn Up' either).

[Cs19]

Good post Jak,I agree.
Jer doesnt like racers, but he really isnt getting it.If you were to walk up to this SDBA guy at the track and ask him "Hey is that an R intake?" You would probably end up having a 1/2 hour long conversation abour R intakes and know whatever it is you wanted to know. This is the internet,not the pits.
Jer, Jak is right. All the stuff you want to talk about is being talked about, just not on the internet.Why not? I dont know, but I'll admit most of what I personally learned didnt come easily and Im uncomfotable spewing my hard earned info or data on ***boat.com.Its obvious your in the dark as to what the races are like.You are missing out on the good stuff, not talking about racing either.

[flat broke]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/2/3445Hogan_009-med.jpg
I saw this boat at the river last season. Maybe at CBBB? I dont remember, but I never forget a boat and this one stands out in my mind. It was rigged beautifully and the gel was perfect. The boat was completly sano. The owner was trying to sell it at the time.
I think I see Peterson written on the transom, hes probably the guy who rigged it, same with the red/white PC,he does nice work and from what i hear h he just opened up a shop in Havi.
CS
Chris,
Good eye. Tom Peterson is doing new stuff out of Havi. I think he mentioned he already had a boat going together when I spoke with him back in December. PC rat, I'll try and get you his information as he has a lot of experience with Placecraft setup.
Chris

[sdba069]

Well said, Bear............. As for me not giving up a lot of info....... I wouldn't recommend to anyone to do what I've done on the black PC, anyway. This boat shouldn't run like it does with the intake that's in the boat. It probably should have a "R" intake in it. I've got a ton of shoe in it, much more than I would recommend to anyone to run. We got to this point by shimming the shoe .030 at a time until the boat started to slow down, then we backed off the shoe depth until we got it optimized. There were other factors involved also. This boat used to run in the mod elim class and won a championship in 1998. I had more problem getting the PC hop out of it than anything else, but I got it. We started with the same hardware setup as we ran with the 10 sec motor and ran in the mid to upper 8 seconds. Never made another tune-up change, just worked with hardware and got it where we are now. Due to the 7.70 capsule rule, we aren't allowed to run any faster, but I feel like the boat has 7.50 potential. Once we got the shoe depth about right with shims, I built a shoe the correct thickness to achieve that same depth. The best part of all this was when I started this project, a lot of guys told me the this was a 9 second boat at best, no matter what engine I'm running. This due to the lake style intake that is in the boat. That comment came from people like Tom Morrow, Papp, and Don Bowers. These are all people I consider friends and have much respect for. Like I said, don't know why it runs as well as it does, but it does. Every time I crawl under this boat and look at the shoe and how small the intake opening is, I still scratch my head. Just FYI, the motor is a 509 BBC, standard 10-71 with Kobelco rotors at 27% making about 15# boost. I turn the motor around 7500 RPM with an AT stainless 9.100 impeller. I run a programmable launch controller. Frank Nagore came to our pit at MF last year after seeing this boat leave and asked how we made the boat launch like that. He was impressed.

[sdba069]

About the orange and white PC......... It's the old "Gotta Go" TFJ. We feel like there's much potential in this boat with the alky motor. It does have the "R" intake. The rooster booster deal was pretty standard on all the old fuel and alky PC's. No matter what, we still can't run it faster than 7.70 without a capsule. We may run both of these boats in PCE as BAJ's , or run the 8 second class. We are building a new Pro Gas Cheyenne this year also. For the record, I don't mind trying to help pretty much anyone out and I've probably brought as many first time racers to the track as anybody. The only ones that I have a problem helping are the guys who know more than me to start with, or think they do anyway.

[placecrafttim]

Sorry for contributing to the hi jack. Anyways I just read in the latest hb. mag in the jet tech section. Placecraft Poser!! And was surprised to see my question in there from these boards.my post (http://new.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84058)
Well he said in that article that the placecraft needs the engine to sit as far back in the boat as possible. To quote Gregs last paragraph,
"The Placecraft works extremely well with lots of horsepower. As you move the engine forward and utilize less power it takes a lot more up attitude in your hardware to get the boat to take a good set."
I totally agree with this but where is the first place to start making changes to get the right set up. Seems like it would take all season at the track just get your boat dialed in.
As far as the effects of shoe's. What about the effects of all the other variables, loaders, plate angle, nozzle angle/ diameter, droops and engine placement.
When I bought my boat it came with a ss b imp, berk droop, w/4 deg. down wedge, flat shoe, and an open center loader. With about 450 hp it ran around 70 mph. I changed out the loader for one that aimed the water higher on the imp, 2 deg bc shoe and removed the wedge. The most I have seen out of this boat is 83 on gps since all of these changes. Is it that common to see that much gain in just those little changes?

[FILUCKY]

Garry has gone out of his way to help me out many times with nothing to gain what so ever, personaly i think Garry is a hell of a guy. :)

[Rondane]

I guess the extra thousand hp helps a little. :rolleyes:
I'm sure it does for the 135mph. If you understood what i was getting at, i mean't if he knows how to set up for 135mph then 100mph is a walk in the park dont ya think?. Maybe you should rolleyes at why he not talking to this guy and not rolleyes at me? :yuk: You CA boys are tough. Alot of other talent elsewhere thats for sure. Don bowers also knows these boats very well. :idea:
rondane

[bp]

Well said, Bear............. As for me not giving up a lot of info....... I wouldn't recommend to anyone to do what I've done on the black PC, anyway. This boat shouldn't run like it does with the intake that's in the boat. It probably should have a "R" intake in it. I've got a ton of shoe in it, much more than I would recommend to anyone to run. We got to this point by shimming the shoe .030 at a time until the boat started to slow down, then we backed off the shoe depth until we got it optimized. There were other factors involved also. ...
The best part of all this was when I started this project, a lot of guys told me the this was a 9 second boat at best, no matter what engine I'm running.
Like I said, don't know why it runs as well as it does, but it does. Every time I crawl under this boat and look at the shoe and how small the intake opening is, I still scratch my head.
i tend to agree also. i've tried to share things i've picked up, but every boat IS different. to me, it's more about theory and concept, like i was told the same things 6 years ago about my boat.
i drove past your pit about 8 times at mf, and walked by a couple times as i wasn't pitted that far from you, but missed you. most of tt day, i was flailing as well as saturday. finally did get an 03 in saturday evening, then an 02 sunday morning then went home.
jer, from the pics you posted, i would not consider either boat loose. mike's appeared to have a little more attitude than needed, but that doesn't mean the boat is loose. danny's was tight.
i saw how greg responded, and i'll go ahead and say that i don't necessarily agree with what he said. i was basically told the same thing 7 years ago by a good friend that i have tremendous respect for, that both of these hulls require lots of power, blah. when we weighed the bare hull 4 years ago, and found it to be 730lbs (and i know this weight is very very close to right on), some things have become very clear over the years since then. i'm not just talking about the obvious power to weight stuff, but the theory and dynamics of how the hull actually works and why it works as well as it does.

[steelcomp]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/2/3445Hogan_009-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/731DSC00587.JPG
When I first saw this white with red trim PC, I thought it was a really nice custom paint job. Now I see two that are almost identical, excepet for different colors. Is this a factory PC gelcoat?
(sorry to go off topic again)

[PC Rat]

Maybe you should rolleyes at why he not talking to this guy and not rolleyes at me? :yuk:
I started this topic in an open forum to get as many opinions as possible. I see that Garry has made several posts under this topic; why he hasn't offered advice on a 100mph boat - I don't know. If you are suggesting that I talk to him on the phone, well I wouldn't want to disrupt his work to BS. He knows that I am seeking advice, I guess it is up to him if he wants to give it up (I'm all ears). Maybe it will all be a waste of time if someone comes up with the cash to buy my boat - but I figured it would be an interesting topic regardless.
FOR SALE:

[PC Rat]

bp,
Would you mind sharing a picture of your boat "at speed"?

[garret]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/2/3445Hogan_009-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/731DSC00587.JPG
When I first saw this white with red trim PC, I thought it was a really nice custom paint job. Now I see two that are almost identical, excepet for different colors. Is this a factory PC gelcoat?
(sorry to go off topic again)
Yes this a factory gel coat

[sleekcrafter]

It's great to see this thread, heading back to the original topic. I'm all ears, on set-up, and there are very different methods in use to make these boats go. Some, including myself, some difficulty fully understanding the concepts being applied. Most races are 5 to 17 hrs in distance from my location, and racers are quite scattered about our region. I do go to local races, we have thursday night drags, from memorial day till labor day. These events are held on a lake with a small Island bar "Blarney's Island" Pitts are on a crowded dock, most guy's are wrenching on the water, fueling, and preping for the next race, while bouncing about the docks. Not to mention the hundreds of other boats and spectators, crowding the area. So a mingleing amongst the racers is minimal, most chat is at the launch, prior or after the races, at the busy boat launch. The other venue I like to attend is Thunder on the river in Ottawa, A lauch and retrive type ramp is employed, all boats in the water, for the rounds. A small pit area is accessable to the public, a lot going on, between rounds, Generally it's very easy going, but things can's can go for the worse. These are the two local events I attend, and see and learn as much as one can, but fully understanding it I don't. I do like the forums here, and appreiciate the useful input from all, racers, builder, lakeboater, and river racers. I can buy any set-up for my boat, thats not going to make it faster, or quicker, If I don't fully understand the intended purpose of hardware. As it's been said NO two boats are the same, and react quite diferently to one another, I simply desire to learn the theories behind the different hardware designs. I like LV's scientific approach to pump effiencies / vs hull design, but it is after all, the racers, that seem to bend phyics beyond belief. New light has been shed, to help me under stand B/C shoes, by some one with a similar hull design, as mine. The variables are many, the results can be great, the effort is priceless. :cool:
Sleek

[bp]

bp,
Would you mind sharing a picture of your boat "at speed"?
no, not at all. i gottem all over the wall, there all over the net.. i've just never been able to successfully -jam- one on to this server, not that i've tried too much. actually, i only have a couple electronic pics; most of the stuff is on tom timms site, or randy krohn's site. dunno if i can tie a link to there or not...
http://dragboats.com/gallery/picture_detail.php?PictureID=10654&RecID=8
i have no idea if this link will work or not, but this is a link to randy krohn's site, dragboats.com, and a pic of the late great bracket racer lance matty and i right at the finish line. lance and i had to run back to back, i got him on the first run, then he got me on this one. this is a tad more attitude than i usually run, but this was firebird, so no big deal. this setup was just a little more conservative than what i ended up with at marble falls, although with less attitude.
http://dragboats.com/gallery/picture_detail.php?PictureID=12112&RecID=8
another randy shot, against kenny shaw at chowchilla at the finish line. i had to keep the boat very tight and conservative all weekend to run the number (in other words, slow it down).
http://dragboats.com/gallery/picture_detail.php?PictureID=13153&RecID=8
this randy shot was taken at dexter oregon last year. i don't know where on the course it is, could be start, could be just before the lights, don't know. i was just particularly happy to win this round. i do know i treed chris pretty good, had the boat to run about a 9.90, so had to get out of it before the lights and let him run up on me a little bit.
i just don't have a down track shot from mf, and with the chop we had, the pic wouldn't be any good anyway. marble falls was the only track where i needed to use the 3 b/c last year. picked up at least .05-.06 with it. i could say the boat was loose at 105, but (ask garry) based on conditions, who knows. i just thought it was a real nice ride... :cool:
also, thanks to randy krohn for taking those pics. hopefully putting up a link isn't a bad thing?

[steelcomp]

black headers rule :D

[sdba069]

Hey PC....... I thought that somewhere in all this that a little bit of a message was hidden, but maybe not. First of all, I'm not a big fan of a backcut shoe, I try to find other ways to create lift or in some cases take water away. When we ran the black PC in the 10 second class which was around 100 MPH, it had a flat .375 shoe in it with no backcut and best I remember that put the shoe up in the hole about .175. We were running a mild 509 BBc with a light shot of nitrous. Off the flat next to the intake, I ran the nozzle at 3.5 degrees up and the plate at 2.5 degrees up, or 1 degree down from the nozzle. The only problem I had with the boat then was the PC hop. If I got enough down plate in it to get the hop out, the boat slowed down a couple of tenths. When I brought the plate back up, it would run it's fastest and quickest right at the point where it had a little hop in it. Just so no one gets the wrong idea, I tried about every combo of ride plate and nozzle angle you could dream of along with shoe and loader changes, not to mention the transom plates, but it still hopped. Like I said, though, it ran best with a little hop in it. Digressing somewhat on the ride plate subject, a few years ago, I rigged a Mirage jet for a HB test session. At some point in my testing, I ran that boat without a ride plate and it was 2 MPH faster without the plate on it than with the plate at any angle we set it. Now on the other hand, the boat was so unstable with porpoise and such that I couldn't see ever running it that way, but I thought it was good to have that little bit of info. I'll be the first to tell you that I by no means consider myself a PC expert, but I have been able to make the 2 or 3 that hang around here work, but I probably do it totally backwards to anything you guys are used to. I hope that somewhere in all this that there is something that you can use. BTW, call me anytime, if I can talk , I will. May not learn a damn thing, but nothing wrong with a good BS session, occassionally.

[MikeC]

http://dragboats.com/images/gallery/large/05_04_IHBA_7721_898.jpg BP,
Quite frankly, your modified tunnel hull (non air entrapment) is aired out more than any other NON TFJ that I have seen pictures of. I've only dreamed of getting my nose down and ass up like yours with my PC. Rat (see we didn't forget ya) you need to PM BP for some serious tips. Brian I wish I could give more info, but I'm not a very scientific dude.
DJD has no idea how much quicker/faster he would be if he removed 2.9 feet out of the 3 feet of his butt that is dragging, damn I'd like to see it run then myself, scarry thought......... :skull:
I agee, my nose is high, it's called - a rebels desperation for speed -. I was forwarned that my 450 hp was not going to be lighting any fires for a PlaceCraft tunnel, however, interestly, even with the nose up, the hull never ever did anything but go straight no matter how much lake wake I flew over...... 12.6 @86.22 in the 1/4 with Oval ports and 8.5:1 compression on 91 octane, made me happy. :)
Good Luck,

[bp]

BP,
Quite frankly, your modified tunnel hull (non air entrapment) is aired out more than any other NON TFJ that I have seen pictures of. I've only dreamed of getting my nose down and ass up like yours with my PC.
i dunno about that mikey, i see things that needed to be improved, so you just keep working on it.
I agee, my nose is high, it's called - a rebels desperation for speed -. I was forwarned that my 450 hp was not going to be lighting any fires for a PlaceCraft tunnel, however, interestly, even with the nose up, the hull never ever did anything but go straight no matter how much lake wake I flew over...... 12.6 @86.22 in the 1/4 with Oval ports and 8.5:1 compression on 91 octane, made me happy. :)
Good Luck,
hey, you busted your butt and did a great job to get it where it ran. i'd just say that i've learned a lot since you ran that thing, and if you were to try it again, it would be interesting to try some different things.
garry, i've heard others say they didn't want to run a b/c shoe, and that's certainly a choice. i've also had people show me their b/c shoes, where the underside of the biting edge looked like it had been carved out of a tree trunk with a dull knife; not something i would ever attach to my intake. we would always compare fastened shoe angle to the keel angle riding surface, and in most cases, even a perfectly flat shoe has some taper to it when compared that way. in my case, the 2 b/c isn't truly 2, when compared to the keel. i know another person that has several b/c angled shims, in half degree machined increments of various thicknesses.
i've had one person tell me that someone else told them they don't use b/c shoes because they had a boat upset due to using a b/c shoe. i know ALOT of people that use b/c shoes all the time, at speeds up to the high 120s and i don't know of any boat upset where the cause could be directly attributed to the shoe angle. of course, angle could get excessive, just as biting edge depth can, resulting in other problems. i'm not suggesting that a b/c shoe is the solution to world hunger, but when a wall is reached, i believe it's one of the options that should be considered, depending on the boat, because it's been proven to have a positive effect in some circumstances. but there are a number of other things that need to be considered at the same time.

[MikeC]

I'm still looking through my pics for more air, but so far, notta. Anyone mind posting all and any Southwind or PlaceCraft type tunnel hull pics (in action of course).
I would have loved to try some of your setup ideas, pretty sure FOP would have dipped to a near 11.5 in the 1/4. It just wasn't in the cards. Maybe in our next life.
MikeC
to all you ass draggen PlaceCraft's, I salute you. :idea:

[b's sanger]

http://www.jetheaven.us/photopost/data/500/98Back01-med.jpg
For Sale:
Hey PC, are those cast or forged cable and steering brackets on your pump. If they are forged, where did tou get them?

[PC Rat]

Garry,
To be honest, I've taken your posts under this thread with a grain of salt. Reason is that most everyone says that what works with the horsepower you are running is not going to work for me. Sorry if I missed something in there.
b's,
Those are cast brackets.
In post 65 I wrote:
"Also, if the shoe is 1/16" below the keel, and my loader hangs down 1/4", isn't the loader ramps blocking the shoe from doing it's job?"
Anyone with an opinion on this?
Is this like a double edge sword, where the long ramps may help load the pump on launch, but hinder getting some lift from the shoe?
Brian
For Sale:

[bp]

Garry,
"Also, if the shoe is 1/16" below the keel, and my loader hangs down 1/4", isn't the loader ramps blocking the shoe from doing it's job?"
Anyone with an opinion on this?
Is this like a double edge sword, where the long ramps may help load the pump on launch, but hinder getting some lift from the shoe?
Brian
no.

[sdba069]

No problem, PC........ Just thought I'd add my .02, but ended up with about $5 worth. Look at the info from when we had the 10 second motor in it and there may be something there that could help.

[bp]

No problem, PC........ Just thought I'd add my .02, but ended up with about $5 worth. Look at the info from when we had the 10 second motor in it and there may be something there that could help.
garry, are you going to run marble falls this year, or skip it?

[sdba069]

BP......... You probably know that SDBA is no longer doing copoints races with IHBA. I doubt, pretty seriously that we'd bring any of our boats unless something changes there. Will probably come down with Gus Ward's TAH and hang out. Gus is one of my best friends and we have partnered up on a couple of boats in the past. Actually, I'm building a new dolly trailer for him right now. We'll see how the MF deal plays out and go from there.

[bp]

BP......... You probably know that SDBA is no longer doing copoints races with IHBA. I doubt, pretty seriously that we'd bring any of our boats unless something changes there. Will probably come down with Gus Ward's TAH and hang out. Gus is one of my best friends and we have partnered up on a couple of boats in the past. Actually, I'm building a new dolly trailer for him right now. We'll see how the MF deal plays out and go from there.
i'm aware of the copoints thing, don't understand it, but aware of it. just curious, why would people skip a race of that size that's only a couple hours away?
btw, did theresa sell her boat yet? hope so, don't need to see that thing anymore :)

[sdba069]

She sold it( more like gave it away) to a friend of mine from Arkansas. We haven't had much luck with our dealings with IHBA in the past. The SDBA membership voted against the copoints deal, so it's not just a board decision. This could turn into a long drawn out explanation, but I'll cut it off there. One of these days, I'll tell you all my reasons for not going to MF unless it's a SDBA race.

[sleekcrafter]

Steel, is it concievable that a 3* B/C shoe, set too high in relation to keel, causes the boat to run flat and wet? Or that the 3* B/C is ineffective with the biting edge above the keel?
My pump was set for the keel to be even with the back of my shoe, as instructed by MPD, I've not shimmed it down as of yet, other issues were being chased down last season. i have a good selection of shims to play with, to slowly bring it down. I see the differences in your pictures and it's quite dramatic. I would have to say my boat currently is like yours in the first picture. My thinking on how the shoe works, has been made clear to me, thanks to you and the many others who have input here. The B/C shoe I would say is not real popular out this way, I know of no one running them here, so pardon my lack of understanding all this right off the bat.
Thanks Sleek flame suit is ready :)
For the sake of the thread, here's the difference between a non-adjustable one-piece shoe/rideplate set-up (that I found out later was actually 1* tapered)...
Ming, '03
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1729ming292103.jpg
...and a 2* backcut shoe shimmed to the right depth, a good loader, and the ride plate and nozzle somewhere near where they should be.
Ming, '04
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1729ming_04a.jpg
Jer, good to have you back. :D[/QUOTE]

[steelcomp]

Sleek, what you see in those two pictures is the extent of my own personal experience. Not much, but what I can tell you is what I've gathered from a lot of time at the track, and watching other's results. The answer is, yes, and no. It's concievable that a 3* backcut that high in the hole isn't doing much to help, and no, it's not the cause of your boat riding the way it does.
The SWTD is unique, and going to require a different set up than something like a PC, or my Bahner. Bottom line is, you are just going to have to go through the trial and error process to get the set up that your boat likes. It's been said a thousand times, that no two boats are the same, even identical hulls. If you have a stack of shims, you're already ahead of the game, and just need to go out and play with them. The difference you see in those two pics of my boat are night and day set up differences, not just a shoe adjustment. Keep talking to the SWTD guys, primarily bp if he has the time, and pick their brains. You'll find what your boat likes, it just takes time. :D

[bp]

Steel, is it concievable that a 3* B/C shoe, set too high in relation to keel, causes the boat to run flat and wet? Or that the 3* B/C is ineffective with the biting edge above the keel?
My pump was set for the keel to be even with the back of my shoe, as instructed by MPD, I've not shimmed it down as of yet, other issues were being chased down last season. i have a good selection of shims to play with, to slowly bring it down.
if you're changing from a flat to a b/c, keep the biting edge at the same depth, and the plate at the same angle as it was before (shim/unshim as needed). work up or down as needed for suction pressure adjustment. i've gone from flat to 3 degree, and as long as the biting edge is very close to the same depth, i have very little overall change in suction pressures (although there is change in hull performance). also, i've made a lot of passes, and i pretty much know where the biting edge depth should be for my boat.
garry, too bad. i'd like to hear about it sometime. i've yet to hear a -good- reason, so that would be different. i've had some people back here say to me "i hate so and so..", and when i ask "why", they either can't remember, or didn't have a real good reason in the first place. stuff like this seems to snowball, kinda like a lynchmob. doesn't seem to be too much room for independent thought, at least from a questioning outsiders perspective. owell, season starts in 3.4/7 weeks...

[sdba069]

Give me a call sometime or I'll bump into you at a race somewhere. I was on the SDBA Board of Directors during the time when Fagan came out here and pulled all his crap. Without going into detail, if you'd been around out here in 98-99 or even the last couple of years, it would be crystal clear.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

bump for great info!!!!!!

[Cs19]

Yeah thats a good one, i just skimmed the whole thing, there is some good stuff there if you take the time to find it.

[FuelInMyVeins82]

bump for a good thread w/ some good pictures!!:D

[cyclone]

Garry,
To be honest, I've taken your posts under this thread with a grain of salt. Reason is that most everyone says that what works with the horsepower you are running is not going to work for me. Sorry if I missed something in there.
b's,
Those are cast brackets.
In post 65 I wrote:
"Also, if the shoe is 1/16" below the keel, and my loader hangs down 1/4", isn't the loader ramps blocking the shoe from doing it's job?"
Anyone with an opinion on this?
Is this like a double edge sword, where the long ramps may help load the pump on launch, but hinder getting some lift from the shoe?
Brian
For Sale:
Let's talk about this some.
I tried a few loaders this past weekend than have me believing that if the ramps extend too far forward that they indeed block the biting edge of the shoe and the lower portion of the intake. I would think that this would be counterproductive when trying to use a back cut shoe because the majority of the water is being directed to the top of the impeller and not enough is going under the shoe to generate lift via the back cut.
anyone else got an opinion on this?
BP said no but didn't explain why.

[bp]

Let's talk about this some.
I tried a few loaders this past weekend than have me believing that if the ramps extend too far forward that they indeed block the biting edge of the shoe and the lower portion of the intake. I would think that this would be counterproductive when trying to use a back cut shoe because the majority of the water is being directed to the top of the impeller and not enough is going under the shoe to generate lift via the back cut.
anyone else got an opinion on this?
BP said no but didn't explain why.
never noticed this before mike, and since the other thread was referencing this thread, went through it again just for grins..
the loader ramps aren't "blocking" any water from the shoe. think about the hydrodynamic effect of the ramp. yes, it scoops water to the top portion of the suction piece aiming for the top half of the impeller, but on the back side of the ramp, a low pressure is created that will pull water up. i suppose that if the ramps are deep enough, and you're going fast enough, you could create voids that are significant enough that the shoe would be dry, but you'd have to be going really really fast for a bubble that large from two 1 1/5" ramps. generally speaking, 1/16" isn't going to create a void to the point the shoe will be dry. the shoe and the loader need to work together.

[Cs19]

i suppose that if the ramps are deep enough, and you're going fast enough, you could create voids that are significant enough that the shoe would be dry, but you'd have to be going really really fast for a bubble that large from two 1 1/5" ramps. generally speaking, 1/16" isn't going to create a void to the point the shoe will be dry. the shoe and the loader need to work together.
My boat, 000, Fuels and Widowmakers boats all responded to cutting the ramps back and allowing more water to see the shoe..In 3 of the 4 cases the data showed very low inlet on the bottom of the suction while the top was loaded very nicely, as we cut the ramps back the top didnt loose any inlet psi. but the low inlet psi. came up significantly. 3 out of the 4 boats had better ets, cant remember if the 4th went better but the data was certainly better. 000, fuel and widows were 3 solid tests I saw at the track with my own eyes since the 418 has been out of commish. A few seasons ago I tested loaders from a 1.5" cut back ramp to a 6.5" cut back loader ramp in 1" increments, saw some interesting stuff there too, similar to what we saw with the other boats and it also helped another issue i was having.
In my opinion there was definatly something going on with the deep loaders, wether it was creating that bubble or just robbing the shoe of water, I dont know but things were working better for sure.

[Cs19]

I would think that this would be counterproductive when trying to use a back cut shoe because the majority of the water is being directed to the top of the impeller and not enough is going under the shoe to generate lift via the back cut.
anyone else got an opinion on this?
Who knows, put a data port under the shoe and see whats up, you could drill a series of holes in the shoe and one in the boat and take the reading. I would think there is water there regardless but who knows.

[bp]

My boat, 000, Fuels and Widowmakers boats all responded to cutting the ramps back and allowing more water to see the shoe..In 3 of the 4 cases the data showed very low inlet on the bottom of the suction while the top was loaded very nicely, as we cut the ramps back the top didnt loose any inlet psi. but the low inlet psi. came up significantly. 3 out of the 4 boats had better ets, cant remember if the 4th went better but the data was certainly better. 000, fuel and widows were 3 solid tests I saw at the track with my own eyes since the 418 has been out of commish. A few seasons ago I tested loaders from a 1.5" cut back ramp to a 6.5" cut back loader ramp in 1" increments, saw some interesting stuff there too, similar to what we saw with the other boats and it also helped another issue i was having.
In my opinion there was definatly something going on with the deep loaders, wether it was creating that bubble or just robbing the shoe of water, I dont know but things were working better for sure.
ok. what was considered "deep"? i.e., what were the a and b dimensions before and after? how deep did they start out, with respect to the keel and shoe, and where did they end up? a lot shallower than keel/shoe? what does all this data tell you with respect to what's going on down there? does attitude, c/g, hull type have any effect?

[Sleeper CP]

After talking to Shoe at Aha Quin we opened up the shoe in our CP by nearly an Inch (1") to get more water to the pump. It worked(Thanks Greg)
We have 6 different intake grates with varying length blockers. Fore the most part they are with in 3 mph of each other. Maybe I should take two that I don't use anymore and cut the fingers back:idea:
Did you cut back to be even with the keel? How far?
Thanks for the info.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
Jon

[Cs19]

ok. what was considered "deep"? i.e., what were the a and b dimensions before and after? how deep did they start out, with respect to the keel and shoe, and where did they end up? a lot shallower than keel/shoe? what does all this data tell you with respect to what's going on down there? does attitude, c/g, hull type have any effect?
Not sure which boat your interested in but on mine I started out at 1.5 x 1-5/8 (deep) went all the way to 6.5 x 1-5/8, now at 5.5.. On the v-bottoms they were experimenting with cutting back the ramps back about .5" to 1.5" or so, starting out in the 2 x 1-5/8 area. Not sure where they ended up at, I would guess they ended up about even with keel, joe is trying some more of that this coming weekend, ask him. On my deal its way above keel, from what Jeff tells me the Biz and other daytonas he worked on were similar.
Like I said in post 110, I dont know exactly why things do what they do, my thoughts are on some boats the deeper loaders are stealing from the shoe and the ramps should be pulled back to even out the inlets. On my deal the ramps are pulled back so far the intake is loaded mostly by the keel and shoe.I havent checked the high and low inlets on the 418 recently, will find out in a few days.
Attitude probably has a huge impact as well as cg but thats another deal, i saw some of that stuff when i moved the engine 5 different times. during the tests i saw CG and attitiude stayed the same, it did move around on mine a little bit, every time i moved the engine i would have to change nozzle angle to try and get the same attitude i had before.

[Cs19]

After talking to Shoe at Aha Quin we opened up the shoe in our CP by nearly an Inch (1") to get more water to the pump. It worked(Thanks Greg)
We have 6 different intake grates with varying length blockers. Fore the most part they are with in 3 mph of each other. Maybe I should take two that I don't use anymore and cut the fingers back:idea:
Did you cut back to be even with the keel? How far?
Thanks for the info.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
Jon
You could try it, most of the cps Ive seen have deeper loaders with good results but its worth trying since every boat is different. Daytonas are a different deal, what works here prob. wont apply to your boat.

[Sleeper CP]

Thanks for the info. I'll give it a try. With opening up the intake w/shoe there is a big chance to feed it more water.
Still fighting to get the intake pressure up, currently at 32-35 psi. Shooting for 40+ off the bottle.
Thanks again,
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[bp]

Not sure which boat your interested in but on mine I started out at 1.5 x 1-5/8 (deep) went all the way to 6.5 x 1-5/8, now at 5.5.. On the v-bottoms they were experimenting with cutting back the ramps back about .5" to 1.5" or so, starting out in the 2 x 1-5/8 area. Not sure where they ended up at, I would guess they ended up about even with keel, joe is trying some more of that this coming weekend, ask him. On my deal its way above keel, from what Jeff tells me the Biz and other daytonas he worked on were similar..
not necessarily interested in one particular boat, just the dynamics. my base loader is 1.5 x 1-5/8, but looks like a midget compared to what a lot of other people are using. my "deep" loader is the same a number, but an 1/8" deeper. i've gone up and down numerous times with the shoe, get good suction pressure response going 0.030 either up or down, so i know the shoe is where it needs to be, and is effectively loading. my main goal with those tests years ago was to find a "sweet" spot with both loader/biting edge depth, where i could go from a 3.156 insert to a 3.0625, and vice versa, and not have a massive suction pressure change. also testing, i ran the deeper loader, with the biting edge of the shoe at the same depth i'd run with the base loader, successfully at ming. then taken the same setup to firebird and on the first pass of t&t, blown the tail at 1000' (data supports the tail was blown; different tracks can affect setup. i'd prefer not to run that test again).
at the moment, with the deep loader in it and the shoe 0.030 shallower (which was for san diego, which normally isn't smooth water), the biting edge is about .020 above keel centerline. the ramps are about 1/4" below keel centerline. the purpose of the deep loader was an effort to remain hooked when it got rough, and it does that very well without killing me with suction pressure. but it's not a good loader for my boat in smooth water. i really believe that if i went back further with the ramps, i'll be in a situation where i'd need to drop the shoe further, and i'd really prefer not to do that. the ramps on my base loader are approximately 1/8" below keel centerline. i'd try one with the a back to 2 1/2 just to test.
Like I said in post 110, I dont know exactly why things do what they do, my thoughts are on some boats the deeper loaders are stealing from the shoe and the ramps should be pulled back to even out the inlets. On my deal the ramps are pulled back so far the intake is loaded mostly by the keel and shoe.I havent checked the high and low inlets on the 418 recently, will find out in a few days.. Attitude probably has a huge impact as well as cg but thats another deal, i saw some of that stuff when i moved the engine 5 different times. during the tests i saw CG and attitiude stayed the same, it did move around on mine a little bit, every time i moved the engine i would have to change nozzle angle to try and get the same attitude i had before.
after all my years on the biz, and the years i've been piddling around doing what i've been doing, what i think is that the dynamics going on under a 115-125mph boat are drastically different than what's going on under a 100-105 mph boat, such that setup has to be different. for the average joe river runner, the 1.5 1-5/8 isn't a bad loader. i could tell ya another story about dasboot, but i'll save that one.
the biz ran open center loaders with much longer ramps than mine. what their a b numbers were, i couldn't tell you. i'd agree with jeff, because i don't recall installing one with holes in the ramps. i cannot recall ever installing a blocker in that boat.
but, your boat is not at all like the biz was. the biz never ever ever left like your boat does; if we'd ever gotten that boat to do that, the pgj record would be in the 7.60s. we moved that engine several times too, which did affect c/g.

[FASTJTBT]

I guess a lot of us on here were very lucky to have Tommy set up are stuff right the first time out.

[jweeks123]

I guess a lot of us on here were very lucky to have Tommy set up are stuff right the first time out.fur sure.
pretty cool that you never have to do all the testing that these other guys do
jw

[Sleeper CP]

I guess a lot of us on here were very lucky to have Tommy set up are stuff right the first time out.
fur sure.
pretty cool that you never have to do all the testing that these other guys do
jw
FYI: Racer's never stop testing. I don't know about the rest of them ,but I know BP has more data on his boat than your average ten racer's put together. Do you think he has been class champ by pure luck:idea:
When my brothers and my CP finally made the jump from 99.8 mph to 103.4 , I got news for ya, we didn't stop looking for speed. It currently run's 98 off the bottle; now that is really fast enough, but 100 is just a click away. And I think we'll go look for it.
:idea: So you're telling us that you are leaving nothing on the table. You have the perfect set up for every condition you will run your boat in. Wow, I wish I was so lucky:rolleyes:
Sleeper CP
565" Ford Lover, 1,000+ HP safely used since 1992:D

[bp]

I guess a lot of us on here were very lucky to have Tommy set up are stuff right the first time out.
then perhaps you could explain why i beat this boat everytime we raced, even though he had at least 150hp on me..
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc266/havabp/HB0D0111.jpg

[Sleeper CP]

then perhaps you could explain why i beat this boat everytime we raced, even though he had at least 150hp on me..
]
That's easy: You are real lucky or you cheat;) , but however you did it
I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with all that testing you do. We all
know that is just a waste of time:rolleyes:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[hellman2u]

BP was ahead cause the other fella had his air dam up (visor) Just kiddin BP !!

[bp]

BP was ahead cause the other fella had his air dam up (visor) Just kiddin BP !!
actually jim, tomc wears glasses, so he did have something on to see with:) it should be noted that he migrated to a stealth, then more power. he only ran this combo for a couple years or less.

[Sleeper CP]

Hope to see you in Phoenix. I think I'll make it over.
If everything is going right hopefully I'll have some more time to bs with ya.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[junkyardhunter]

its dead in here :skull: