This can't be right

[painterdan32]

To start with, I've been through all kinds of hell with my Olds 455.When I bought the boat it was a rat. Really ratty. I'm down to two things that I cant figure out. My cooling is one major problem. Every time I hit 4000 rpm, the belt jumps straight up off the pulley on its way to the waterpump and then slowly grinds itself to a pulp leaving me with an engine bay full of shreaded rubber. I am looking for a way to remove the pump completely and use the jet pump as my cooling. Through exhaustive research, I have compiled even more questions. I'm running a rebuilt 12JC-A pump with standard Berkeley manifolds I've looked at liquid addiction.net and don't understand how to run water through my manifolds. do I drill them or what? What do I do for a blockoff plate? Is there a kit to do all of this? Everywhere I look everyone is running open headders and I just cant see the similarity. Do I need a pressure valve? Will that make it easier for other drivers to use my boat? The other question is my carb. What cfm and fuel pump to use. Is 750 cfm too smallfor a 455 that's .030 over. And finally, how do I test my heads for cracks. No water in oil and motor runs excellent. If you can help with any topic it would be greatly appreciated. By the way, how did I do starting my first thread?

[Moneypitt]

Why does a jet use an additional water pump? The reason the belt jumps off is the pump has reached it's max water flow capability, and "says no more". That can be over come with pulley size changes, but the jet is where you should be getting the engine cooling water. There have been several threads with cooling system diagrams, maybe someone will pull one up for you....MP

[SmokinLowriderSS]

To start with, I've been through all kinds of hell with my Olds 455.When I bought the boat it was a rat. Really ratty. I'm down to two things that I cant figure out. My cooling is one major problem. Every time I hit 4000 rpm, the belt jumps straight up off the pulley on its way to the waterpump and then slowly grinds itself to a pulp leaving me with an engine bay full of shreaded rubber. I am looking for a way to remove the pump completely and use the jet pump as my cooling. Through exhaustive research, I have compiled even more questions. I'm running a rebuilt 12JC-A pump with standard Berkeley manifolds I've looked at liquid addiction.net and don't understand how to run water through my manifolds. do I drill them or what? What do I do for a blockoff plate? Is there a kit to do all of this? Everywhere I look everyone is running open headders and I just cant see the similarity. Do I need a pressure valve? Will that make it easier for other drivers to use my boat? The other question is my carb. What cfm and fuel pump to use. Is 750 cfm too smallfor a 455 that's .030 over. And finally, how do I test my heads for cracks. No water in oil and motor runs excellent. If you can help with any topic it would be greatly appreciated. By the way, how did I do starting my first thread?
You have no need for the water pump, period, as posted above. Do your exhaust manifolds look basically like this with 2 pipe fittings in the front and the anti-washback "snails" at the rear have another underneath?:
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=2829
The first part you need is this one:
http://www.eddiemarine.com/cart/details.asp?SubCategoryID=156&CategoryID=67
The cooling water runs in from the jet, is split with a "T", feeds to 1 fitting on the manifolds. This cools the logs & pre-heats the water a bit.
The other manifild fitting connects to the water pump block-off (or "replacement" if you prefer) plate fitting.
The "used" engine cooling water then comes out at the thermostat housing, is plumbed to the fitting on the bottom of the snails to dump out with the exhaust.
I use 3/4" rubber heater hose, about 25 feet of it.
Headers are slightly backwards (water jacketed or injected).
A 750 is just fine. I'm running a 700 on my 454. Not for absolute max HP, but for nearly that as well asa an ability to DRIVE it without having to fight it. here's another link holley's carb sizing info:
http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Selecting%20A%20Carburetor.pdf
You can have a good head shop check the heads out (the head shop without the incense burners all over :p ). You COULD spend $100 and buy a pressure tester, mix-match enough to adapt it to your setup, and use it yourself, but that wouldn't find anything unless it was in a cooling passage.
Personally, no problems, don't worry that part. fix the cooling and enjoy it. If YOU don't know the internals of the engine personally, watch your oil pressure VERY closely the first time you try extended high-RPM. Maybe the oil system restricting work an Olds needs has been done, maqybe somebody unknowingly dropped an old car engine in unmoddified.
Extended high revving a stock olds will pump ALL the pan oil into the valve covers where it can't drain back fast enough, it'll starve, and the bottom end will blow up.

[sidewound]

Welcome to the forum!
Ditch the water pump. Use your ditch pump! lol
You have the pack-a-jet package. My boat had
the same setup.
You'll need a new thermostat housing and a
blockoff plate. I've got a blockoff plate.
If you want it send me a PM.
My berk logs were trashed so I had to replace
them as well.
Hopefully this pic will shed a little light on the
subject for ya.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3371MILL_IN_010.jpg
Peace Man! :cool:
CESAR

[painterdan32]

Why does a jet use an additional water pump? The reason the belt jumps off is the pump has reached it's max water flow capability, and "says no more". That can be over come with pulley size changes, but the jet is where you should be getting the engine cooling water. There have been several threads with cooling system diagrams, maybe someone will pull one up for you....MP
Thanks for letting me know why it's doing this. I found out the engine didn't need rhe extra pump and never figured out why it caused such a problem. I'm getting good help now. Thanks!

[painterdan32]

You have no need for the water pump, period, as posted above. Do your exhaust manifolds look basically like this with 2 pipe fittings in the front and the anti-washback "snails" at the rear have another underneath?:
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=2829
The first part you need is this one:
http://www.eddiemarine.com/cart/details.asp?SubCategoryID=156&CategoryID=67
The cooling water runs in from the jet, is split with a "T", feeds to 1 fitting on the manifolds. This cools the logs & pre-heats the water a bit.
The other manifild fitting connects to the water pump block-off (or "replacement" if you prefer) plate fitting.
The "used" engine cooling water then comes out at the thermostat housing, is plumbed to the fitting on the bottom of the snails to dump out with the exhaust.
I use 3/4" rubber heater hose, about 25 feet of it.
Headers are slightly backwards (water jacketed or injected).
A 750 is just fine. I'm running a 700 on my 454. Not for absolute max HP, but for nearly that as well asa an ability to DRIVE it without having to fight it. here's another link holley's carb sizing info:
http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Selecting%20A%20Carburetor.pdf
You can have a good head shop check the heads out (the head shop without the incense burners all over :p ). You COULD spend $100 and buy a pressure tester, mix-match enough to adapt it to your setup, and use it yourself, but that wouldn't find anything unless it was in a cooling passage.
Personally, no problems, don't worry that part. fix the cooling and enjoy it. If YOU don't know the internals of the engine personally, watch your oil pressure VERY closely the first time you try extended high-RPM. Maybe the oil system restricting work an Olds needs has been done, maqybe somebody unknowingly dropped an old car engine in unmoddified.
Extended high revving a stock olds will pump ALL the pan oil into the valve covers where it can't drain back fast enough, it'll starve, and the bottom end will blow up.
Not going to THAT head shop again! Thanks for the links you provided. My original berkeley logs have only got the dump 'in' as far as I can see. It seems that I need the new logs to complete this transformation or can i redrill a spot for the return to the engine? It seems like the water would just leave my snails. There isn't any closed portion that I can see. Thanks for the help!

[painterdan32]

Welcome to the forum!
Ditch the water pump. Use your ditch pump! lol
You have the pack-a-jet package. My boat had
the same setup.
You'll need a new thermostat housing and a
blockoff plate. I've got a blockoff plate.
If you want it send me a PM.
My berk logs were trashed so I had to replace
them as well.
Hopefully this pic will shed a little light on the
subject for ya.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3371MILL_IN_010.jpg
Peace Man! :cool:
CESAR
Nice pic! That's exactly what I wanted to see! By the way ... Is that engine in a Sidewinder as well? Looks so familiar!

[Old Guy]

The water "In" connection on the risers is on the bottom. The rear seats and the stringers makes it near impossible to see them on a Sidewinder.
old

[painterdan32]

The water "In" connection on the risers is on the bottom. The rear seats and the stringers makes it near impossible to see them on a Sidewinder.
old
Now that I have my engine jacked up, the only thing that I can see is where I put two petcocks in the front bottom of the snails to drain the block in the winter. Are theese the "in" inlets you're talking about? I also have a set of plugs directly on top of the snails. They seem to only be about 1/4" in diameter also. Seems like water would just spray into the water jacket. Only other plugs I have are the four to actually bolt the manifold to the head. Thanks for the reply! Daniel.

[Old Guy]

Do your snails look anything like these?
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=2655

[76ANTHONY]

i just have a comment on this subject. you will certainly get the help you need here. there are alot of people on these forums who will fill your head with crap. this is not one of those forums. i had issues with my jet over a year ago and got answers on here fast. the people on here will not try to help if they dont know what they are talking about, so with that being said, good luck with your boat and welcome to the forums. i wish i had answers for you but im running a 455 with bassetts and dual 750's, so neither one will help. keep up with the working on your boat and soon, very soon, you'll have it on the water and enjoy it :D
just ole76's .02

[Bradf]

Hah, thanks Lowrider... I used that eddie marine link and it took me right to the 455 water pump cover i need to get rid of that stripper pole on my boat!
Ordered!
--Brad

[GunninGopher]

Below is a pic of how mine is set up. I couldn't get a good angle to show everything very well. I had another jet with logs a few years ago that had a different looking snail, but the fitting was in the same spot, near the exhaust outlet side of the snail. I'm sure they are all like that to keep water from backing into the logs and subsequently into the head.
I've only seen 5/8" cooling hoses on any jet I've looked at or owned, so I think you are looking for a fitting about that size.
Sorry the photograph isn't that good.
http://www.theolanders.net/dave/Log%20Plumbing.jpg

[painterdan32]

Do your snails look anything like these?
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=2655
No. Mine are square on the inlet side and do not have the big holes you are talking about or seeing in your photo. The log itself has the berkeley logo on the side. I'll take a photo tomorrow nite when my camera comes back and post it then.

[painterdan32]

Below is a pic of how mine is set up. I couldn't get a good angle to show everything very well. I had another jet with logs a few years ago that had a different looking snail, but the fitting was in the same spot, near the exhaust outlet side of the snail. I'm sure they are all like that to keep water from backing into the logs and subsequently into the head.
I've only seen 5/8" cooling hoses on any jet I've looked at or owned, so I think you are looking for a fitting about that size.
Sorry the photograph isn't that good.
http://www.theolanders.net/dave/Log%20Plumbing.jpg
I've been looking at so many photographs lately that I can decipher what you're saying. I thought my holes were too small too. Thanks though. Painterdan.

[painterdan32]

Hah, thanks Lowrider... I used that eddie marine link and it took me right to the 455 water pump cover i need to get rid of that stripper pole on my boat!
Ordered!
--Brad
Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone in this search!

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Please get us a pic of the log manifolds. I have not seen any Berks. Mine were Niccson's, just like the Hardin's pictured. We'll manage to figure your flow needs out. Somebody will have had those somewhere. I'm not having luck finding a picture on the net. My boat's only 28 years old. :)

[jetboat=$]

i have the logs, snail, and water pump cover for a 455. i would be interested in selling them. if they could help your problem let me know.

[Old Guy]

Ah ha!!!
You have what I started with. Your logs probably look like this.
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=3316
If you add a thermostat kit, you will be glad you did. The diagram here might help.
http://www.rexmar.com/page160.html

[painterdan32]

Ah ha!!!
You have what I started with. Your logs probably look like this.
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=3316
If you add a thermostat kit, you will be glad you did. The diagram here might help.
http://www.rexmar.com/page160.html
Darn'it! those are it! Would it be best if I repced them?....Since you've been there?

[painterdan32]

Darn'it! those are it! Would it be best if I repced them?....Since you've been there?
Can't keep my head in it tonite because my employer died today but I will kook at the diagram and try to figure it out tomorrow. Thanks a bunch!

[Old Guy]

I had no choice. Mine were burned out and leaking. I tried to have them welded, but nothing worked. I would not have replaced them if I could have fixed them. If yours don't leak, there is no reason to replace them.
I'm sorry to hear about the death of your employer. I hope things work out OK for you.
Roger

[Jet Hydro]

Someone say they needed some olds parts? I dont know what size of olds they came off anymore but I`ll take $150.00 +`s shipping for all 3 items you see in this picture. "No" I will not split em up you must take all 3.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/4213P1030411-med.JPG

[Jet Hydro]

for another $25.00 I`ll kick these in also. Forgot I had them in the first post.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/4213P1030412-med.JPG

[malcolm]

Judging by the width of that intake, I'd say that's for a small block Olds. Well, it's hard to tell in the pic, how wide is it?

[sidewound]

Here's a pic of my original Berk log.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3371114I_hate_blown_motors-med.jpg
Tried having mine welded but they cracked again after an hour. And yeah that's my Sidewinder.
I'll PM ya back about the plate. You can have it.
Peace Man!:cool:
CESAR

[Jet Hydro]

Judging by the width of that intake, I'd say that's for a small block Olds. Well, it's hard to tell in the pic, how wide is it?
I talked to a guy last night and he thinks it was a 403 olds? I cant remember.

[max]

I would plumb in a pressure valve and a dump hose. Sold by High Tech and others. At WOT, pressure to the motor from the pump can be extreme. It can lead to water in the oil. Some try to partially close a gate valve to regulate the pressure but this can lead to overheating at idle, especially hard on the valve seats in the head. I learned this the hard way.

[painterdan32]

I had no choice. Mine were burned out and leaking. I tried to have them welded, but nothing worked. I would not have replaced them if I could have fixed them. If yours don't leak, there is no reason to replace them.
I'm sorry to hear about the death of your employer. I hope things work out OK for you.
Roger
Thanks for the kind words. Everything's ok now. I liked the thermostat housing Idea. I'm just confused on one thing. Waterflow. If I'm over thinking this tell me so... The water comes into the log, Goes through the log, goes into the blockoff plate, comes out the t-stat housing and back into the log. I havent pulled my snails off since I replaced the gaskets, but I think that the exhaust goes through the bottom of the log. If I install the fittings down there won't I fill my exhaust with water? also with only one point of water direction(via the jet drive) won't the water become confused in the log Causing back pressure? (when reading other forums i find that Water itself doesn't get confused...just the boat owner!) or do I need to run lines through the log as well as just tapping into the log? I have an everso slight exhaust leak when the engine is cold. it goes away when the engine warms up. Can't get the logs any tighter when installing gaskets though.

[painterdan32]

Please get us a pic of the log manifolds. I have not seen any Berks. Mine were Niccson's, just like the Hardin's pictured. We'll manage to figure your flow needs out. Somebody will have had those somewhere. I'm not having luck finding a picture on the net. My boat's only 28 years old. :)
Heres my logs. hope to hear from you!

[Old Guy]

The reason for confusion is obvious. You can not do what you're being told to do. What everybody is calling logs and snails, is very different from what you have. You can't bring the water in through the exhaust system. You are going to have to bring the water in the front of the blockoff, go through the engine, and out the exhaust. I would use the thermostat as I suggested. If you follow the diagram with your water lines, you will always have water going through the logs and out the exhaust. This is very important. Without a constant supply of cooling water, the hoses at the end of the exhaust system will, at the very least, melt......and your boat will sink.
If you bring your water supply from the jet pump through a hand valve, then a tee with a relief (pop-off type)valve, then another tee to feed each side of the block off and the thermostat housing, it should work just fine.
I would also remove one of the plugs in your intake manifold and install a pressure gauge to enable proper adjustment of the relief valve. Once you have the pressure set, you don't really need the gauge.
Roger

[max]

I have an everso slight exhaust leak when the engine is cold. it goes away when the engine warms up. Can't get the logs any tighter when installing gaskets though.
I have always had to run double exhaust gaskets on my hardin logs to get them to seal properly. I use the Mr. Gasket performance gaskets. You might give that a try.

[painterdan32]

The reason for confusion is obvious. You can not do what you're being told to do. What everybody is calling logs and snails, is very different from what you have. You can't bring the water in through the exhaust system. You are going to have to bring the water in the front of the blockoff, go through the engine, and out the exhaust. I would use the thermostat as I suggested. If you follow the diagram with your water lines, you will always have water going through the logs and out the exhaust. This is very important. Without a constant supply of cooling water, the hoses at the end of the exhaust system will, at the very least, melt......and your boat will sink.
If you bring your water supply from the jet pump through a hand valve, then a tee with a relief (pop-off type)valve, then another tee to feed each side of the block off and the thermostat housing, it should work just fine.
I would also remove one of the plugs in your intake manifold and install a pressure gauge to enable proper adjustment of the relief valve. Once you have the pressure set, you don't really need the gauge.
Roger
The lightbulb has just come on! (Pretty brightly too... I think) Consider the t-stat housing ordered. The hand valve confuses me though. If I put a pressure regulator valve in and adjust it for say 15 psi,and then plumbed the bypass from it out the boat like a bilge pump, Wouldn't that open and dump excess pressure at WOT? I sometimes have drivers out there who don't know all the in's and out's of boating (diverter up/down... ect). I think the hand valve would confuse us all. Thanks so much for your time and info. It's been so helpful so far. Daniel.

[painterdan32]

I have always had to run double exhaust gaskets on my hardin logs to get them to seal properly. I use the Mr. Gasket performance gaskets. You might give that a try.
Do you run both metal sides out... or are those all metal gaskets? Daniel

[Old Guy]

The hand valve is to enable you to get the relief valve adjusted.
If you don't have some way to restrict the water flow while you tinker with the relief valve adjustment, you are likely to blow a gasket before you ever get the pressure adjusted where you want it
Once the pressure is properly set, the hand valve is opened all the way and left that way. I just thought it's easier to deal with a hand valve you no longer need than to replace head gaskets.
Roger

[centerhill condor]

I had a similar problem... too much water flow.. I installed a pressure relief set up from performance jet in cali... also a 160'F thermostat with 2 x 3/16" holes drilled one on each side of the t stat for exhaust meltdown prevention. system runs great... maybe this helps.. good luck!

[painterdan32]

The hand valve is to enable you to get the relief valve adjusted.
If you don't have some way to restrict the water flow while you tinker with the relief valve adjustment, you are likely to blow a gasket before you ever get the pressure adjusted where you want it
Once the pressure is properly set, the hand valve is opened all the way and left that way. I just thought it's easier to deal with a hand valve you no longer need than to replace head gaskets.
Roger
Gotcha! What is an ideal pressure to run? something below a normal radiator cap I presume? And that should be 5/8 hose going in to the motor? Thanks Roger!

[centerhill condor]

http://www.performancejet.com/techtalk.htm has a well developed definition of the problem and solutions... especially for your oldsmoguys... we're having a bit of a blizzard :boxed: 14 psi on the by pass works well here.

[max]

Do you run both metal sides out... or are those all metal gaskets? Daniel
The exhaust gaskets I use are the white fiber ones, they will compress and seal when the metal ones won't.
Max

[Old Guy]

I'm running 5/8" hose before the tee for the motor feed, then 1/2" between the tee and the motor. I'm running only 9 - 10 psi, but the 1/8" tubing vents at the rear of the intake insures no air pockets.
The olds motor has a thin flat steel plate on the front of the motor behind the water pump. The front crank oil seal and pan seal is in this plate so it's not the easiest to replace. It tends to get rusty on the back side where you can't see it. If you have a problem with water in the oil....no matter what you do, it's a good place to check.
Roger

[painterdan32]

The exhaust gaskets I use are the white fiber ones, they will compress and seal when the metal ones won't.
Max
OK. Thanks. Daniel.

[painterdan32]

I'm running 5/8" hose before the tee for the motor feed, then 1/2" between the tee and the motor. I'm running only 9 - 10 psi, but the 1/8" tubing vents at the rear of the intake insures no air pockets.
The olds motor has a thin flat steel plate on the front of the motor behind the water pump. The front crank oil seal and pan seal is in this plate so it's not the easiest to replace. It tends to get rusty on the back side where you can't see it. If you have a problem with water in the oil....no matter what you do, it's a good place to check.
Roger
I haven't had water in the oil before, but with this thing never running properly, it's hard tellin' what I will find next. Thanks for the imput on this though! Daniel.