The Boating Industry is being................

[Nord]

Taken over by brands such as Yamaha and See-Doo. What I mean by this, is new boaters with small budgets are buying these boats left and right. You see them everywhere on every river/lake.
My question is.........How come Advantage, Ultra, etc.. does not come out with a 18-21.5'r with a 350 or a whacker option, that has a deeper V, and rig them a little lighter to catch that demographic?? They could call them with the "such and such" line "BY" Ultra or whatever Brand" So there is not a mix up in quality. these boats could sell in the same price range as the other brands with jets on them and give them a run for their money in that market. They could come without carpet, and be super simple for the new boaters that are buying these other brands as first boats.???????
BTW, if this does happen to be a good idea, I would like some royalties :)
~NORD~

[BrendellaJet]

I dont think that would really be doable, although I could be wrong. Yamaha & Sea Doo(Bombardier) are HUGE. Lots of $$$$$ for the R&D and they have been at this game for a long time. Customer boat MFG'rs make custom boats, not cookie cutters.

[Sleek-Jet]

I don't think it's anything new... 20 years ago you could buy an 18' Bayliner Capri with a 125 hp Force O/B and a trailer for about 5 grand...
Chopper gun production boats are cheap for a reason... the hand layed "custom" boat manufacturers probably don't want to go down that road.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Taken over by brands such as Yamaha and See-Doo. What I mean by this, is new boaters with small budgets are buying these boats left and right. You see them everywhere on every river/lake.
My question is.........How come Advantage, Ultra, etc.. does not come out with a 18-21.5'r with a 350 or bigger Option, that has a deeper V, and rig them a little lighter to catch that demographic?? They could call them with the "such and such" line "BY" Ultra or whatever Brand" So there is not a mix up in quality. these boats could sell in the same price range as the other brands with jets on them and give them a run for their money in that market. They could come without carpet, and be super simple for the new boaters that are buying these other brands as first boats.???????
BTW, if this does happen to be a good idea, I would like some royalties :)
~NORD~
Nord,
John West, at Ultra, has been talking about doing this for a while now. Not sure if he has made any move in this direction though. I agree that this could and should be done.
John M

[SB]

Well our Mr. West has discussed this in the past, and he carried a Lightning line for awhile.
I can only assume there isn't much profit in a $20,000 boat, so they make more on a $50,000+ boat.

[Cole Trickle]

Taken over by brands such as Yamaha and See-Doo. What I mean by this, is new boaters with small budgets are buying these boats left and right. You see them everywhere on every river/lake.
My question is.........How come Advantage, Ultra, etc.. does not come out with a 18-21.5'r with a 350 or bigger Option, that has a deeper V, and rig them a little lighter to catch that demographic?? They could call them with the "such and such" line "BY" Ultra or whatever Brand" So there is not a mix up in quality. these boats could sell in the same price range as the other brands with jets on them and give them a run for their money in that market. They could come without carpet, and be super simple for the new boaters that are buying these other brands as first boats.???????
BTW, if this does happen to be a good idea, I would like some royalties :)
~NORD~
I know John West thought about this over a year ago and didn't push forward.
I honestly don't think that the custom west coast builders could offer the same quality and ammenities as the Seadoo,Bayliner type boats for the same cost. I would imagine that they are making a pretty good profit due to them being built overseas.....cheaper parts,labor,overhead,insurance,etc

[lucky]

I think it has more to do with the availble finiancing - and the idea that you can drive out with one of these "things " on your bumper before the wife said NOOOOOOOO---
I think John should jump on the Harley band wagon i could soo see a ultra with a harley in it - :) kickin ass on a sea do do

[Kilrtoy]

They already did
it's called
LIGHTENING(SP)
and
GENESIS

[phebus]

That's like saying that Mercedes should make a car that competes with Hyundai.

[Jbb]

I don't think it's anything new... 20 years ago you could buy an 18' Bayliner Capri with a 125 hp Force O/B and a trailer for about 5 grand...
Chopper gun production boats are cheap for a reason... the hand layed "custom" boat manufacturers probably don't want to go down that road.
"That Road"......might just pay high dividends.....:jawdrop:

[Froggystyle]

There is absolutely no way to compete with those companies. Much as you don't see any competition in the motorcycle industry as well. They are far too good at their jobs, with far too much cash invested in efficiency to be able to compete at the quality level matched with pricing.
As an example, many of their seats are built without a cover. They use a self-skinning foam that is just injected into a mold and a back is put on it. The seat costs less than the upholstery neccessary to cover one of ours, let alone the labor to install it. Of course the steel tool neccessary to inject that foam was over $30K per cushion, and the two part foam injection machine could run well over $100K. The smallest amount of the foam you can buy at that level is a 55 gallon drum, and you need one of each part... each drum is about $2500. It will probably do a couple hundred seats though... maybe more.
Plastic hinges, fully lined boats, plastic shifters, custom built gauges... we will get beat at every turn.
Some of those boats are being built so inexpensively you wouldn't believe. Sea Ray as an example is building their boats using a male-female mold that literally presses the laminates together and then you inject the resin. Not particularly light, but plenty strong and they come out within 2 pounds of each other they are so consistent. They also clear that mold three times a day. Oh... and that mold was probably close to a half-million dollars. Each.
No question boats can be made more efficiently for less money that we do in the custom industry. We try to make up for it by delivering handbuilt quality, better hardware (the cheapest shifters you could possibly buy in the aftermarket are twice as good as the stock Yamaha ones for example) and improved styling.

[Froggystyle]

Hell, I just remembered there are some boat hulls being built using thermoformed plastics. You just heat up a sheet and suck it down...
Imagine the cost savings?

[TOBTEK]

There is absolutely no way to compete with those companies. Much as you don't see any competition in the motorcycle industry as well. They are far too good at their jobs, with far too much cash invested in efficiency to be able to compete at the quality level matched with pricing.
As an example, many of their seats are built without a cover. They use a self-skinning foam that is just injected into a mold and a back is put on it. The seat costs less than the upholstery neccessary to cover one of ours, let alone the labor to install it. Of course the steel tool neccessary to inject that foam was over $30K per cushion, and the two part foam injection machine could run well over $100K. The smallest amount of the foam you can buy at that level is a 55 gallon drum, and you need one of each part... each drum is about $2500. It will probably do a couple hundred seats though... maybe more.
Plastic hinges, fully lined boats, plastic shifters, custom built gauges... we will get beat at every turn.
Some of those boats are being built so inexpensively you wouldn't believe. Sea Ray as an example is building their boats using a male-female mold that literally presses the laminates together and then you inject the resin. Not particularly light, but plenty strong and they come out within 2 pounds of each other they are so consistent. They also clear that mold three times a day. Oh... and that mold was probably close to a half-million dollars. Each.
No question boats can be made more efficiently for less money that we do in the custom industry. We try to make up for it by delivering handbuilt quality, better hardware (the cheapest shifters you could possibly buy in the aftermarket are twice as good as the stock Yamaha ones for example) and improved styling.
Frog, you need to go to the Ed/Hardlysatisfied school of posting. Nice boat, or Nice house, or the like of....... My God you are LONG WINDED:D :D hehehehe

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Good points Wes.
jm

[Sleek-Jet]

"That Road"......might just pay high dividends.....:jawdrop:
Can you imagine...
"I've had enough of the tweeker, Ultra driving ass clowns on the big weekends... " :D

[ratso]

Glastron did it with "Conroy"... come to think of it, I haven't seen a Conroy around in quite a few years.

[HEDJUG]

That's like saying that Mercedes should make a car that competes with Hyundai.
I like to say it this way... Mercedes should make a car that's as good as a Honda.

[Trailer Park Casanova]

There is absolutely no way to compete with those companies. Much as you don't see any competition in the motorcycle industry as well. They are far too good at their jobs, with far too much cash invested in efficiency to be able to compete at the quality level matched with pricing.
As an example, many of their seats are built without a cover. They use a self-skinning foam that is just injected into a mold and a back is put on it. The seat costs less than the upholstery neccessary to cover one of ours, let alone the labor to install it. Of course the steel tool neccessary to inject that foam was over $30K per cushion, and the two part foam injection machine could run well over $100K. The smallest amount of the foam you can buy at that level is a 55 gallon drum, and you need one of each part... each drum is about $2500. It will probably do a couple hundred seats though... maybe more.
Plastic hinges, fully lined boats, plastic shifters, custom built gauges... we will get beat at every turn.
Some of those boats are being built so inexpensively you wouldn't believe. Sea Ray as an example is building their boats using a male-female mold that literally presses the laminates together and then you inject the resin. Not particularly light, but plenty strong and they come out within 2 pounds of each other they are so consistent. They also clear that mold three times a day. Oh... and that mold was probably close to a half-million dollars. Each.
No question boats can be made more efficiently for less money that we do in the custom industry. We try to make up for it by delivering handbuilt quality, better hardware (the cheapest shifters you could possibly buy in the aftermarket are twice as good as the stock Yamaha ones for example) and improved styling.
That says it all perfectly. FS nailed it right on the head.
We just sold our Speedster. Zero to 70 in a millasecond, fun as hell, but, and a big BUTT, it's not a boat, it's a big, expensive PWC.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f18/tpc123/river2007001.jpg?t=1180549565
Sound nuts, but I missed the Mercury style throttle and shifter of my past boats, the motors simplicity and so we've ordered a big American made boat with a small block Vortex.
Several of the makers have tried to compete the Small Japan style market in the past.
We've seen it go full circle.
Sea Doo, Kawasaki, Honda are household names and tough to compete with.
And they are expensive, dealers everywhere.
Malibu, Natique, Sea Ray have jumped in the "garag-able" market for families or people for that matter that live in Condos,, and they're doing a good job with budget priced boats.

[RiverDave]

Everybody keeps saying how cheap they are, but last time I went into a dealership to buy a part for my quad, those "cheap" jetboats cost about as much as some entry level customs already?
RD

[Jbb]

Everybody keeps saying how cheap they are, but last time I went into a dealership to buy a part for my quad, those "cheap" jetboats cost about as much as some entry level customs already?
RD
They do now......I bought a Sea Doo Speedster new to play with in 1995...2 engines..trailer...a carload of freebies...for $12000...not any more:jawdrop:

[cxr133]

I dont think that would really be doable, although I could be wrong. Yamaha & Sea Doo(Bombardier) are HUGE. Lots of $$$$$ for the R&D and they have been at this game for a long time. Customer boat MFG'rs make custom boats, not cookie cutters.
My Yamaha was made in Tennessee.
its true its not a true boat to me its really like a big ass Jetski!!!
but i did see lots and lots of them up and down the river this weekend. BUT i guess the same could be said about Magic and Ultra's.
custom boat mfgrs.. should look into low end injection molds to offer cheaper boat lines.

[Froggystyle]

Everybody keeps saying how cheap they are, but last time I went into a dealership to buy a part for my quad, those "cheap" jetboats cost about as much as some entry level customs already?
RD
And were twice the boat, twice the engineering, twice the acceleration, twice the motors and twice the reliability.
They aren't cheap per se, but they are inexpensive compared to trying to match it with a custom. Like Ross said, how much money would it take to get a custom jet to go 0-70 as fast as that speedster, how many people would it hold and how refined would it be.
I have spent the last seven years of my life being unimpressed by the overall quality of most custom boats, and hugely impressed by the overall quality of the production boats, especially from a fit, finish, refinement, integration, utility perspective. We have a lot to learn from the big production boat companies still... make no mistake about it.

[Froggystyle]

custom boat mfgrs.. should look into low end injection molds to offer cheaper boat lines.
Why? It is being done very well already by companies better equipped to service the market?
I would say that the production boat companies need to look into building bigger nicer boats. That would turn some heads. The reason why people are spending huge money on 27' long wakeboard boats is because they are among the nicest 27' boats on the water. The tooling is amazing, the integration, engineering, fit and finish are far higher than most "custom" boats. Hell, even the underside of the seats on those things are finished with cloth custom sublimated specifically for them with their names on them. Dashboards are purpose built, much like a car. Everything is trick and matched... the same cannot be said for any custom manufacturer that I have seen.

[Mrs.HLB]

They already did
it's called
LIGHTENING(SP)
and
GENESIS
I don't know about Lightning but we have a Genesis. I believe there entry level jet boat starts about $50k.
Mrs.HLB

[lucky]

humm extrudid aluminum Yamhaha river racers:idea:

[socalmofo]

They already did
it's called
LIGHTENING(SP)
and
GENESIS
That is the most ignorent comment you ever posted. First off it is LIGHTNING not Lightening (That was a hard one). I am a Lightning owner and I am very happy with the product. I hope some day when I grow up I can be a cop and drive a basement DCB and bash all other manufacturers and wear all my cool DCB swag everywhere. Get over yourself.

[BADBLOWN572]

With the cost of materials and labor, it is very hard to get the prices of the boats much lower than they already are. :( Believe me, I have tried!!! :eek:

[Goodtime$]

Im not speaking for everyone, but you buy a West Coast Custom Boat because you do not want a cookie cutter production boat.
The point of a custom boat is to get a boat for you, not everyone.
You have to pay to play, custom boats are expensive.
But having good tastes is never cheap.

[shippingguy]

That is the most ignorent comment you ever posted. First off it is LIGHTNING not Lightening (That was a hard one). I am a Lightning owner and I am very happy with the product. I hope some day when I grow up I can be a cop and drive a basement DCB and bash all other manufacturers and wear all my cool DCB swag everywhere. Get over yourself.
In KILR's defense. I think what he is trying to say is that this idea has been tried and it actually did start with Lightning. John West was building these boats as entry level boats. Lightning by Ultra. The boat itself was not laid up any different, but what was different was that you got to pick from three standard types of graphics and color combos, only smaller engine options and also not all the bling. I.E. plastic swimsteps not billet, and also plastic cupholders not billet etc. Now that Jason at Lightning has been building them he has changed that and started building them a bit more custom hence the price increase.
Mike

[socalmofo]

In KILR's defense. I think what he is trying to say is that this idea has been tried and it actually did start with Lightning. John West was building these boats as entry level boats. Lightning by Ultra. The boat itself was not laid up any different, but what was different was that you got to pick from three standard types of graphics and color combos, only smaller engine options and also not all the bling. I.E. plastic swimsteps not billet, and also plastic cupholders not billet etc. Now that Jason at Lightning has been building them he has changed that and started building them a bit more custom hence the price increase.
Mike
I agree. I thought it was a bashing once again. If not I retract my statement. It get's old when people wan't to bash a boat that someone has worked hard to own, That's all.

[Stoneman]

I have a Yamaha 05 SX 230 23ft bowrider, and I'm not suprised that these boat are getting popular.
I owned to yamaha waverunners in the past and they were bulletproof, never had a problem with either one of them, so I felt very comfortable buying another yamaha product.
Owned a Mariha deck boat for seven years and had numorus problems and maintenance was 500 to 1000 per year (BOATS). Since I can do all the maintenance myself on the Yami, all it costs is the price of oil, filters, and lube. which is about 50 bucks.
Boat rides great for a 23ft'r and will do about 50 on the speedo, my guess is about 45-47 on GPS. Holds 10 folks, and the big plus is the rear seating.
my .02

[shippingguy]

I agree. I thought it was a bashing once again. If not I retract my statement. It get's old when people wan't to bash a boat that someone has worked hard to own, That's all.
I understand where you are coming from as well.
Mike

[zudnic]

Could work, I'm thinking a Porsche and VW relationship that evovled into first the 914, 924, and 944 models. Think the Cougar comes close to being an entry into the custom boat market. The Hot Boat review was a little disappointing on the 20.5 sports ski though its a good start.......
http://www.cougarboats.com/20.5%20hot/gallery.swf

[Kilrtoy]

That is the most ignorent comment you ever posted. First off it is LIGHTNING not Lightening (That was a hard one). I am a Lightning owner and I am very happy with the product. I hope some day when I grow up I can be a cop and drive a basement DCB and bash all other manufacturers and wear all my cool DCB swag everywhere. Get over yourself.
Maybe when you grow up, you can learn about pedigree, until then relax and keep your mouth shut....
I'll help you out thou, as you appear to have no clue,
these companies were started to get people into custom boats who could not afford a custom boat, just a few years ago maybe as little as four, they were pushing these boats out the door for 25K....they came with a 5.0 motor and you could choose from five gel schemes and 5 colors....
And yes my wife owns a piece of crap bargin basement DCB with two lightnings hanging off the back for power
(SP) denotes spelling error again for when you grow up....

[Froggystyle]

Since when are Speedsters quick? Never saw or run a jet ski of any size that I couldn't out run 0 - 70, or out turn......
OK, try to do that new for $12,000 ($1.8 million Can) with a warranty, trailer and a truckload of shwag. What did your hull cost?

[RiverDave]

That is the most ignorent comment you ever posted. First off it is LIGHTNING not Lightening (That was a hard one). I am a Lightning owner and I am very happy with the product. I hope some day when I grow up I can be a cop and drive a basement DCB and bash all other manufacturers and wear all my cool DCB swag everywhere. Get over yourself.
Actually Lightening started as an "affordable" Ultra.. John West stripped them down, and offered them at better prices. Double stitched interior instead of triple, plain jane graphics, plane jane guages (if memory serves) etc..
Essex did the same thing, but actually started a sister company to do it.. I don't think it was called Genesis though? I can't remember what it was called now to be honest.. In there case it was a cheaper lay up, etc..
RD

[Froggystyle]

Essex did the same thing, but actually started a sister company to do it.. I don't think it was called Genesis though? I can't remember what it was called now to be honest.. In there case it was a cheaper lay up, etc..
RD
Laser
Just to put the buying power and efficiency of Yamaha into perspective, my price on a remanufactured small block Merc with drive is within two grand of the full retail of the Yamaha. Add a helm, throttle quadrant and a prop and one of the cheapest drivetrains I can get my hands on comes out to more than full pop retail on the Yami...

[Kilrtoy]

Actually Lightening started as an "affordable" Ultra.. John West stripped them down, and offered them at better prices. Double stitched interior instead of triple, plain jane graphics, plane jane guages (if memory serves) etc..
Essex did the same thing, but actually started a sister company to do it.. I don't think it was called Genesis though? I can't remember what it was called now to be honest.. In there case it was a cheaper lay up, etc..
RD
RD you are right,
LASER is the one I was thinking of, but genesis is still a entry level boat compared to others

[zudnic]

In the old days Cougar was one of if not the top custom builder from a quality stand point. Glass work, interiors, trailers......all first rate
One of my family's friends bought an early 22MTR in the early 90's at a on the Fraser River boat show in Ladner BC.... The only other custom builder I knew of and was familiar with at the time was Kazulin, neighbor bought one of those in late 80's at the BC Place Boat Show in 87/88. Cant remember what they paid for the Cougar, alot less than the $75K CDN the Kazulin cost our neighbor though.
We ran it once or twice from Point Roberts WA across to active pass a couple of times, looked awesome is/was first rate and handled the Pacific Ocean well......

[78Eliminator]

Speaking of parts cost. I lost a rod bearing on my Kawasaki ZX7 a while back. So I am thinking I can just get the crank turned, some over sized bearings and be done with it. WRONG. They don't make over sized bearings. And a new crank was over $700. And I would need at least one new rod to go along with that at the cost of $200. They (Japanese heavy industries) really get you with the parts. So I just found a wrecked ZX7 and had a complete motor for $450.

[Mrs.HLB]

RD you are right,
LASER is the one I was thinking of, but genesis is still a entry level boat compared to others
Yeah we love our entry level boat.. :rolleyes: thanks
Mrs.HLB

[eliminatedsprinter]

Wow I must be getting old. I remember when the the guys with expensive quality boats by brands like Gulfstream, Chris Craft, Thunderbird, and Glastron etc, looked down their noses at the guys with "cheap" little boats made by companies like Tahiti, Spectra, Eliminator, Taylor, Cole, and Hondo etc...:)

[Froggystyle]

Hull only? less than that:D
Those things are not 12g here, last time I looked they were a similiar price to what I paid for my last tub
Easy on the CDN $.... you might want to check the value of the US Peso.... The Revo should come in at about $250.00 soon :eek: ;)
You see my point though. It would be impossible to build a custom boat, even at a quality and performance level hugely below the Yamaha for even double the price. You would have an extremely difficult time building a 70mph jetboat for $20K out the door... let alone one with twins.
It isn't as easy as it all looks. Things are very expensive to produce in a custom manner, and there is no payoff for doing it as cheaply as possible. Yamaha/SeaDoo/Kawasaki etc... are just doing too great of a job at it for anyone to compete at that level.

[Kilrtoy]

Yeah we love our entry level boat.. :rolleyes: thanks
Mrs.HLB
Stop geting all but hurt, Jesus H. Christ

[Froggystyle]

Wow I must be getting old. I remember when the the guys with expensive quality boats by brands like Gulfstream, Chris Craft, Thunderbird, and Glastron etc, looked down their noses at the guys with "cheap" little boats made by companies like Tahiti, Spectra, Eliminator, Taylor, Cole, and Hondo etc...:)
Still do for the most part. I will take a Chris Craft over any of the aforementioned boats of the same vintage. Probably a Gulfstream or Glastron as well.

[zudnic]

On the 20.5 sport was disappointed in its performance in the hot boat review. Without seeing one in person dont want to comment on its fit and finish. But it does appear to be a good solid contender to some of the others taking over the boating industry mentioned..... :D

[RiverDave]

Yeah we love our entry level boat.. :rolleyes: thanks
Mrs.HLB
Mrs HLB, I'm a little confused as to why your taking offense to this?
I dunno what kind of boat you own or don't own, but if it's a Laser, or a Lightning (from Ultra) etc.. then they advertised them as "Entry Level" boats?
Why get upset if someone calls it what it is?
RD

[Mrs.HLB]

Stop geting all but hurt, Jesus H. Christ
Not butt hurt.. Have a great day in Paradise!

[Froggystyle]

Mrs HLB, I'm a little confused as to why your taking offense to this?
I dunno what kind of boat you own or don't own, but if it's a Laser, or a Lightning (from Ultra) etc.. then they advertised them as "Entry Level" boats?
Why get upset if someone calls it what it is?
RD
Often times, people don't like to consider their hard earned purchase as "entry level" by any stretch. Even what is considered "entry-level" by the industry is rarely considered so by the owner, who may have just stepped up from an $8K Bayliner Capri.
A new Genesis is about 15x what I paid for my first "entry level" boat.
Audrey and I were putting that into perspective this weekend. Someone was talking with us in the parking lot of the Fry's outside of Martinez, and they had the Cheetah deckboat. They also knew more about the Revolution than you could imagine. We were complimenting them on their boat, when he replied that "it is nice for an entry level boat". I disagreed with him. That was a great boat, and by no means entry level. If that was entry level, that I don't know what you would call the five boats I owned prior to building Trident, because it was more than double the cost of my most expensive new boat, and 20x more expensive than my first...
It is all relative I guess.

[mobldj]

bla bla,if you own a boat ,any type or brand consider yourself one of the fortunate ones ,it is truly a item not needed in life.from bayliner to dcb(get over yourselves) have fun,be safe and get on plane.my 2 cents

[mobldj]

ps, if you aint got the pink slip you dont own the boat,the bank does

[Kilrtoy]

bla bla,if you own a boat ,any type or brand consider yourself one of the fortunate ones ,it is truly a item not needed in life.from bayliner to dcb(get over yourselves) have fun,be safe and get on plane.my 2 cents
Exactly...
JUST FYI
my first boat was a 1998 18' STINGRAY I paid $9029 OTD
ps, if you aint got the pink slip you dont own the boat,the bank does
WOW, but so true....

[djunkie]

Exactly...
JUST FYI
my first boat was a 1998 18' STINGRAY I paid $9029 OTD
.
O.A.C.??? :D :D J/K Quit pissing in peoples Cheerios would ya. :D

[Froggystyle]

ps, if you aint got the pink slip you dont own the boat,the bank does
I don't see how that matters a bit personally. It doesn't matter how you earned it, through cash or credit... it is your accomplishment. I don't own anything anymore... used to own everything outright.
I have much nicer stuff now though. I would rather owe and have nice stuff than have BS and own it outright.
If I had to pay cash for everything to feel cool, I would still be living in a trailer in Sonoma, saving for a used car.

[Stoneman]

Being one who knows very little about Yamahas boats what I found was a 2007 AR210 with a msrp of $38950. Is that cheap?
For an extra few $$$..... I'll take an Eagle.....
Website says AR210 MSRP is 30,799 w/6.99% financing.
SX230 is 35,999 which is only 7,000 over what mine was in 05.
What are other 23ft'rs going for?

[Stoneman]

MSRP $46241 off of Yamaha Canada website
Come down here and get one.

[Stoneman]

I would actually have to want one to think about buying one :D
Yep, they're not for everyone! :)

[Nord]

nord, aren't you a "pro bull rider" (retired) ... ??? that's like asking you to ride one of them small ponies rather than that big ol' bull named = foo-man-choo ; come on, loosen those chaps son :sqeyes: :) d-no
I think everyone missed the point. I'm not talking about custom boats. I'm talking about cheaply made boats that don't go fast, don't have carpet, don't have really soft seats, no bells and whistles.........that kind of stuff.
As far as your analogy..............you are retarded ;) lol ;)
It always has to come down to the cowboy stuff...........

[Froggystyle]

I think everyone missed the point. I'm not talking about custom boats. I'm talking about cheaply made boats that don't go fast, don't have carpet, don't have really soft seats, no bells and whistles.........that kind of stuff.
When I wake up gasping for breath, scared beyond all logic it is because I had a nightmare that I was involved even peripherally with such a project... :D

[Stoneman]

I think everyone missed the point. I'm not talking about custom boats. I'm talking about cheaply made boats that don't go fast, don't have carpet, don't have really soft seats, no bells and whistles.........that kind of stuff.
As far as your analogy..............you are retarded ;) lol ;)
It always has to come down to the cowboy stuff...........
My yamaha came with carpet, stereo, bimini top, seats, batteries, engines, windshield, fire ext. and steering wheel all standard.

[Nord]

My yamaha came with carpet, stereo, bimini top, seats, batteries, engines, windshield, fire ext. and steering wheel all standard.
What year and what did you pay??

[Stoneman]

What year and what did you pay??
05 28K OTD

[Nord]

05 28K OTD
There you go............. 28K is a lot of money!!!!

[Stoneman]

There you go............. 28K is a lot of money!!!!
Like I said, what other 23ft'r can you get for that price?
Answer, None.

[Froggystyle]

Like I said, what other 23ft'r can you get for that price?
Answer, None.
You can't find a 23' custom with anything approximating that performance for double that price. Not to mention reliability...
Especially with a jet.

[squirt'nmyload]

Like I said, what other 23ft'r can you get for that price?
Answer, None.
bayliner??
Bayliner 225
Model Year: 2005
22'0" (6.71 m)
MSRP:* $28,486
(See pricing & options)

[zudnic]

There you go............. 28K is a lot of money!!!!
At 6.99% even the payments approach what people where paying financing often times triple that amount a few years ago.
Maybe a Porsche Boxster entry level would be a good idea for a custom builder. Or do you think Cops are still going to be able to afford a DCB at 6.99%, like they did during the record low rate period? :jawdrop:

[Nord]

You can't find a 23' custom with anything approximating that performance for double that price. Not to mention reliability...
Especially with a jet.
You keep saying Custom............where the hell in my post did I type custom??? I'm talking about a mass produced hull with a deeper V, like a Bayliner...etc... 3 guages, 350 merc. no gel (stickers) basic seats. Basic everything etc.....
Where does that put you for price?? I'm not arguing, I'm asking Wes. :)

[Nord]

At 6.99% even the payments approach what people where paying financing often times triple that amount a few years ago.
Maybe a Porsche Boxster entry level would be a good idea for a custom builder. Or do you think Cops are still going to be able to afford a DCB at 6.99%, like they did during the record low rate period? :jawdrop:
Looks like the cops are doing just fine with what they have :devil:
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k81/msbladua/Havasu%20Misc/DSC03581.jpg?t=1180559173

[Kilrtoy]

Or do you think Cops are still going to be able to afford a DCB at 6.99%, like they did during the record low rate period? :jawdrop:
Gotta love the jealous haters

[Stoneman]

bayliner??
Bayliner 225
Model Year: 2005
22'0" (6.71 m)
MSRP:* $28,486
(See pricing & options)
I doubt it will be the same price once you include the standard equip on the yami that is an option on the bayliner. Plus it's a 22' not 23'. Point is Yami is a lot of boat for the money.

[Froggystyle]

Maybe a Porsche Boxster entry level would be a good idea for a custom builder. Or do you think Cops are still going to be able to afford a DCB at 6.99%, like they did during the record low rate period? :jawdrop:
Who cares? They already got them...
The custom builders are realizing right now that the people who have been buying boats for the last five years are for the most part not their clients. They are people that through an anomaly in the finacial state of our area/nation were able to leverage a hugely appreciated asset to pay for something they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford.
Two of the three folks that have signed up for my boats in the last month are cash buyers. They are the ones who were able to afford expensive stuff before the boom, and they amazingly enough are able to afford it afterwards. There aren't as many of them around though, and when all of the people who are done unloading their two year old boats for half of what they paid are out of the market again... that is what we will be left competing over.
A "value buyer" need only to look at any of the traders right now to find the greatest value on any boat, period. From Skaters to Sea Rays, there are people losing 35-50% of new value in only a couple of years right now. The more that hit the market, the lower the people who absolutely HAVE to sell to keep the house are willing to sell for. It is happenning across lots of industries too... many businesses overextended trying to accomodate the needs of the increased demand over the last several years and are now fire-saleing commodoties and equipment. Go look for CNC machines right now on the secondary market... I understand from a guy who sells them that it has nearly stopped the new market, and they are having to do an awful lot to earn every sale right now, like installing, rigging, financing and training to get the sales.

[MR.rvrluvr]

Don't mind me I am just building my post count....Please continue....Thanx :)

[Froggystyle]

You keep saying Custom............where the hell in my post did I type custom??? I'm talking about a mass produced hull with a deeper V, like a Bayliner...etc... 3 guages, 350 merc. no gel (stickers) basic seats. Basic everything etc.....
Where does that put you for price?? I'm not arguing, I'm asking Wes. :)
Well, figure $8K for a 4.3 liter with an Alpha. $1000 for prop, helm and controls. Figure $1K for all the rigging done cheaply... that's gauges, cleats, tank, no swimstep, horn, lights and rub rail.
Fiberglass at commodity level pricing is about $2/pound. Figure what the boat weighs and you will pay about that. Glass is a little more, resin is a little less, and with a chopper or wet layup you are 70% resin or so. Assume a 21 footer weighs 2,000 pounds or so, you are looking at $4K in material. Add gelcoat (about $1,000 in one color) and a sprayer and you put about $1500 into gel, no tape. So, bare hull would be about $5500-6,000 done hugely cheaply, not including build labor. Add about $600 for that.
Stringers, inner liner, seats, wiring... on the cheap you are looking at $2,000 for all.
No trailer, $18,000 without rigging it. With rigging labor, you are looking at $19,000 probably. Then overhead...
My shop costs about $40,000/month to keep open, no purchasing being done. That is labor, insurance, payroll, workmans comp and medical. I don't get paid. With one mold, you could probably build four a month. Add $10K per boat for overhead.
OK, so your hard and fixed costs are about $29,000. Add a couple thousand for the trailer and you are at say $33,000. Add a couple thousand profit and you are at $36,000.... and remember I still haven't been paid.
For that, you have a four thousand pound 21 with a 4.3 liter V6 in it that may run 45mph. I don't think you would sell many...
For all of that liability, I will take home a profit of $3K? Granted, that is more than I have made on any of my boats I have sold yet... but I don't see going down that road for that kind of profit. Too much exposure.

[Boozer]

In 03 I bought an 02 Bayliner 195 Capri it was the previous years model but brand new.
The boat came with a crappy looking bimini style top that works but I never use it. Gel coat (VERY thick gel), CD player, carpet, Merc 4.3 V6, Alpha one, fire extinguisher, merc controls, etc. OTD I paid $14,300.00
At the time I bought the boat I had also considered a Baja 21'. I figured the Bayliner was the best option due to it being my first boat. Honestly, after all the first time boater mistakes that I made I don't regret the decision whatsoever.
When I was doing the detailing gig I climbed around a LOT of custom boats. I was dissapointed in the overall quality of many of the boats I was in. I can tell you that there were many boats costing well into and ABOVE the 200K+ range that were literally falling apart. I also got into many of the lower end customs and some of them were quite impressive. The next boat I purchase will most likely be a Commander or a Cheetah after everything I have seen they seem to be the best bang for your buck custom boat on the market today. Bayliners seem to be the best bang for your buck boat PERIOD but I hate having a boat that looks just like everyone elses. My neighbor has a Glastron he bought at the same time I bought my Bayliner, his Glastron has been better taken care of and used far less then my boat and he's had a LOT more problems then I have he also paid about double what I paid.

[Nord]

Well, figure $8K for a 4.3 liter with an Alpha. $1000 for prop, helm and controls. Figure $1K for all the rigging done cheaply... that's gauges, cleats, tank, no swimstep, horn, lights and rub rail.
Fiberglass at commodity level pricing is about $2/pound. Figure what the boat weighs and you will pay about that. Glass is a little more, resin is a little less, and with a chopper or wet layup you are 70% resin or so. Assume a 21 footer weighs 2,000 pounds or so, you are looking at $4K in material. Add gelcoat (about $1,000 in one color) and a sprayer and you put about $1500 into gel, no tape. So, bare hull would be about $5500-6,000 done hugely cheaply, not including build labor. Add about $600 for that.
Stringers, inner liner, seats, wiring... on the cheap you are looking at $2,000 for all.
No trailer, $18,000 without rigging it. With rigging labor, you are looking at $19,000 probably. Then overhead...
My shop costs about $40,000/month to keep open, no purchasing being done. That is labor, insurance, payroll, workmans comp and medical. I don't get paid. With one mold, you could probably build four a month. Add $10K per boat for overhead.
OK, so your hard and fixed costs are about $29,000. Add a couple thousand for the trailer and you are at say $33,000. Add a couple thousand profit and you are at $36,000.... and remember I still haven't been paid.
For that, you have a four thousand pound 21 with a 4.3 liter V6 in it that may run 45mph. I don't think you would sell many...
For all of that liability, I will take home a profit of $3K? Granted, that is more than I have made on any of my boats I have sold yet... but I don't see going down that road for that kind of profit. Too much exposure.
That is your costs.............now if we get someone who makes more boats, gets better pricing, and MASS PRODUCES these boats, I'm sure some of those prices would be moved around correct??
BTW, 40,000 a month?? How the hell are you in business if you haven't done volume since you started your company how long ago??? I feel for you!!! Hope you start moving a ton of those things. I think you would agree that your costs would probably go down once your start making about 10 a year wouldn't you agree??
Then again..........I just sell cowboy stuff ;)

[WYRD]

Well, figure $8K for a 4.3 liter with an Alpha. $1000 for prop, helm and controls. Figure $1K for all the rigging done cheaply... that's gauges, cleats, tank, no swimstep, horn, lights and rub rail.
Fiberglass at commodity level pricing is about $2/pound. Figure what the boat weighs and you will pay about that. Glass is a little more, resin is a little less, and with a chopper or wet layup you are 70% resin or so. Assume a 21 footer weighs 2,000 pounds or so, you are looking at $4K in material. Add gelcoat (about $1,000 in one color) and a sprayer and you put about $1500 into gel, no tape. So, bare hull would be about $5500-6,000 done hugely cheaply, not including build labor. Add about $600 for that.
Stringers, inner liner, seats, wiring... on the cheap you are looking at $2,000 for all.
No trailer, $18,000 without rigging it. With rigging labor, you are looking at $19,000 probably. Then overhead...
My shop costs about $40,000/month to keep open, no purchasing being done. That is labor, insurance, payroll, workmans comp and medical. I don't get paid. With one mold, you could probably build four a month. Add $10K per boat for overhead.
OK, so your hard and fixed costs are about $29,000. Add a couple thousand for the trailer and you are at say $33,000. Add a couple thousand profit and you are at $36,000.... and remember I still haven't been paid.
For that, you have a four thousand pound 21 with a 4.3 liter V6 in it that may run 45mph. I don't think you would sell many...
For all of that liability, I will take home a profit of $3K? Granted, that is more than I have made on any of my boats I have sold yet... but I don't see going down that road for that kind of profit. Too much exposure.
Its funny to watch people bitch about the high costs of things (being an electrical contractor I hear the complaints alot)then you break it down like this and suddenly people are reminded just exactly how much it costs to be in business for yourself in the grand ole US of A:jawdrop:

[WYRD]

That is your costs.............now if we get someone who makes more boats, gets better pricing, and MASS PRODUCES these boats, I'm sure some of those prices would be moved around correct??
BTW, 40,000 a month?? How the hell are you in business if you haven't done volume since you started your company how long ago??? I feel for you!!! Hope you start moving a ton of those things. I think you would agree that your costs would probably go down once your start making about 10 a year wouldn't you agree??
Then again..........I just sell cowboy stuff ;)
40K seems pretty reasonable in todays market....

[Nord]

40K seems pretty reasonable in todays market....
Not when your making 3K a pop...........right???

[Froggystyle]

Take the above example and bump it up to a 350 mag... commonly the entry level motor in the market. So, add $3500 to the price. Add the following as well...
$700 Swimsteps
$650 Stereo
$700 Through hull exhaust
$650 Upgraded gauges
$800 Billet bezels
$3000 Gelcoat options
$800 Bimini top
$600 Interior color
$500 Dual Batteries
$1500 Subwoofers and amplifiers
$2500 Tandem trailer upgrade
$750 40 oz color carpet
$300 Ski lockers
$1500 Triple stitched interior
$800 Upgraded controls
$500 Electric hatch lift
$900 Fuel switching valve and second tank
Total on that comes to $20,650 in upgrades. Add that to the $36K, and you are at $56,650 with a small profit on the upgrades, but an increased labor cost, increased purchase cost and increased liability of parts breaking. Figure instead of netting $3K you are netting $5-6K on the same boat. It is easy to see why most custom boats are starting in the $50K range.

[WYRD]

Not when your making 3K a pop...........right???
3k would be gross profit, add on things like warranty work, advertising, marketing, and competition and that 3k is probably more like 1.5k net...not worth the risk to extend yourself to that market

[Boozer]

$2500 for a tandem trailer upgrade? :eek:
$1500 for subwoofer and amps? :eek:
Thats got to be some mega mark up....
I recently rebuilt the entire driveline for my single axle trailer. New axle, hubs, and brakes. Cost me about $350 and the labor took me about 3 hours. So add 2 rims and tires to that and you're at what? $600. 3 hours labor @ $70 an hour total $810 paying retail for everything.

[Froggystyle]

That is your costs.............now if we get someone who makes more boats, gets better pricing, and MASS PRODUCES these boats, I'm sure some of those prices would be moved around correct??
Technically, yes. But Bayliner sold 11,000 boats last year. Brunswick (Bayliner's parent corporation) sold something to the order of 30,000 last year total. They have the type of volume that allows for a serious discount. The very largest custom boat builder who in 2005 sold 356 boats and in 2007 is on track for 150 boats will get the very first volume price break you get from Mercruiser. That is if they ran ALL Mercruiser engines. They got that break threatened this year, and possibly lost it from my sources because they have chosen to run Ilmors as well. I hate Merc. Needless to say, we won't be getting any big discounts regardless of volume for years...
BTW, 40,000 a month?? How the hell are you in business if you haven't done volume since you started your company how long ago??? I feel for you!!!
Unfortunately, I am better at raising money and building boats than I am at selling them. It has cost me 50% less per boat to build for the three that I have built. First one cost me about $700,000. Next one cost about $350,000 and we just flat out rocked the next one out for under $150K in labor. I dream of only $10K per boat in overhead. My rent is nearly $10K, with another $4K just in insurance.. not including medical. I have a $24,000 payroll and then medical, utilities and leases.
Hope you start moving a ton of those things. I think you would agree that your costs would probably go down once your start making about 10 a year wouldn't you agree??
They better... right now, if you owned a boat company, spent five years tooling, developing, becoming an industry professional, getting insurance and certifications, designing trailers, establishing all of the cottage industries neccessary to build a boat from scratch, tooling parts, hiring and training etc... you couldn't build a boat for less than I will sell you one for now.
We just need to get moving. Every week I have an open mold I lose about $10K of overhead. Needless to say, I am pretty aggressive on pricing these things for now.
The Powerboat article that comes out next week should change all of that. If not, I am out of ideas. I don't know how much faster, cleaner, cheaper more efficient and innovative than the competition you need to be to sell boats, so if this evaluation article happens and we still don't have sales... I will be officially at a loss for words.
Then again..........I just sell cowboy stuff ;)
Principles are the same in any industry.

[cxr133]

i think the problem is that the custom boat builders need to get out of the HAND BUILT mentality and start switching certain things over to assemby lines and computers... then you could get an almost custom with substantial cost savings. Plus i bet if they switched from hand laid glass hulls to computerized fiberglass infusion.. or whatever the big boat makers use that would cut down on costs and labor
what do you think Froggystyle?

[Froggystyle]

$2500 for a tandem trailer upgrade? :eek:
$1500 for subwoofer and amps? :eek:
What would you charge to build and install boxes, wire speakers, buy speakers, install them, build an amp rack, buy an amp or two, wire them, put in a breaker and warranty them? The equipment cost on cheap gear will be $500 if it is a dollar. Labor will be several hundred. Then there is profit. I wouldn't lay a finger on it for less than that.
I recently rebuilt the entire driveline for my single axle trailer. New axle, hubs, and brakes. Cost me about $350 and the labor took me about 3 hours. So add 2 rims and tires to that and you're at what? $600. 3 hours labor @ $70 an hour total $810 paying retail for everything.
My trailer under the Revolution costs me $8500. I sell it for that because I think it is already too expensive. I sell trailers at zero profit right now. My dog trailer was $5500. The very cheapest I have seen a new construction trailer capable of pulling a 21' boat effectively is $4K. There was no profit in that number I quoted.

[Froggystyle]

i think the problem is that the custom boat builders need to get out of the HAND BUILT mentality and start switching certain things over to assemby lines and computers... then you could get an almost custom with substantial cost savings. Plus i bet if they switched from hand laid glass hulls to computerized fiberglass infusion.. or whatever the big boat makers use that would cut down on costs and labor
what do you think Froggystyle?
Sure. But the last time I bought a boat the builder was so undercapitalized they needed my loan funded in full to pay for the boat three ahead of me. Most manufacturers wouldn't and haven't put any money into development for this reason. There is no money to be had.
This has to be the most undercapitalized industry I have ever witnessed. Most vendors have confided that the vast majority of their clients are on COD terms for this very reason.
You could never computer infuse anyway. They do have robots that spray chopper gun stuff, but that is probably a million dollar machine that is taking the place of a $15/hr laborer. In the sub 1,000 boats per year volume, there is no sense in that at all.

[cxr133]

Sure. But the last time I bought a boat the builder was so undercapitalized they needed my loan funded in full to pay for the boat three ahead of me. Most manufacturers wouldn't and haven't put any money into development for this reason. There is no money to be had.
This has to be the most undercapitalized industry I have ever witnessed. Most vendors have confided that the vast majority of their clients are on COD terms for this very reason.
You could never computer infuse anyway. They do have robots that spray chopper gun stuff, but that is probably a million dollar machine that is taking the place of a $15/hr laborer. In the sub 1,000 boats per year volume, there is no sense in that at all.
i think my question was more like buy hulls, bottoms.. whatever from bayliner ,yamaha, glastrom.. whomever.
in "A" Shop semi-customize seating, stereo, engine, paint there.. would that lower the cost of a custom boat? and be able to mass market it?

[Froggystyle]

i think my question was more like buy hulls, bottoms.. whatever from bayliner ,yamaha, glastrom.. whomever.
in "A" Shop semi-customize seating, stereo, engine, paint there.. would that lower the cost of a custom boat? and be able to mass market it?
Why would Bayliner want to do that? Providing hulls to the competition?
What lowers the cost of anything is volume. I personally would rather have your Yamaha than a cheap boat built by any custom builder. You are driving the solution to the problem. If you want it customized... go customize it. You can get yours painted... you can do billet bezels in yours. The custom industry CAN NOT answer the resources that have been put into your boat, and probably never will...
And by the way, you ruined any chance of getting a good deal by using the words "semi-customize"... you just put yourself right back into the hopper with the custom builders... low volume, low profit.
Ever seen a custom motorcycle that can compete price-wise with Yamaha, Honda or Kawi? Me neither. That is why you don't see entry level bikes from small businesses on the market. No ability to compete.

[Nord]

I never posted anything about a trailer. I think you mixed up quotes :)
My trailer under the Revolution costs me $8500. I sell it for that because I think it is already too expensive. I sell trailers at zero profit right now. My dog trailer was $5500. The very cheapest I have seen a new construction trailer capable of pulling a 21' boat effectively is $4K. There was no profit in that number I quoted.[/QUOTE]

[76ANTHONY]

hey nord, are you talkin like the baja outlaw 20? kinda stripped down. nice little entry level boat. you can upgrade it and the engine cannnnnn be replaced with a 350 after warranty is up.:D

[Nord]

hey nord, are you talkin like the baja outlaw 20? kinda stripped down. nice little entry level boat. you can upgrade it and the engine cannnnnn be replaced with a 350 after warranty is up.:D
Yeah, something along those lines ;) lol

[Mandelon]

The Powerboat article that comes out next week should change all of that. If not, I am out of ideas. I don't know how much faster, cleaner, cheaper more efficient and innovative than the competition you need to be to sell boats, so if this evaluation article happens and we still don't have sales... I will be officially at a loss for words.
Yeah, right....:rolleyes: :D :D :D

[76ANTHONY]

Yeah, something along those lines ;) lol
ok then, i get what your saying. got confused on the high performance shiat and the 900 gelcoat color dealio...
thats it im buying a rowboat dammit....:D

[Froggystyle]

Yeah, right....:rolleyes: :D :D :D
Wanna bet? If a glowing review by one of the most pertient resources in the community along with an evaluation showing clear superiority in the market doesn't beget sales... I am probably out of the civilian pleasure boat business.
I am working feverishly on military contracts right now. They appear more than able to tell the difference and are willing to pay for it.

[Nord]

Yeah, right....:rolleyes: :D :D :D
LMAO!!!! I just shot a booger out of my nose while reading that!!
ok then, i get what your saying. got confused on the high performance shiat and the 900 gelcoat color dealio...
thats it im buying a rowboat dammit....:D
We all will have rowboats in a few years :)

[Froggystyle]

LMAO!!!! I just shot a booger out of my nose while reading that!!
Really? :confused:

[zudnic]

My shop costs about $40,000/month to keep open, no purchasing being done. That is labor, insurance, payroll, workmans comp and medical..
How married to your current area are you?
This is why I'm moving my business to Northern California
http://www.shastaedc.org/incentives.asp
Fresno and Kern also make things attractive for cutting your over-head costs. All the EDC's also have attractive building lease options and even incentives in aiding with loans, etc........
I am working feverishly on military contracts right now. They appear more than able to tell the difference and are willing to pay for it.
For state gov. contracts business in economic development zones get special prefferance.....

[Froggystyle]

How married to your current area are you?
This is why I'm moving my business to Northern California
http://www.shastaedc.org/incentives.asp
Fresno and Kern also make things attractive for cutting your over-head costs. All the EDC's also have attractive building lease options and even incentives in aiding with loans, etc........
For state gov. contracts business in economic development zones get special prefferance.....
We are almost certainly moving to Nevada after my lease is up. Probably Henderson closer to the lake. 1.5 hours to Havasu, 20 minutes to Vegas, 15 minutes to the ramp... This I can live with. Right now I am 1.5 hours from Elsinore, which is the only lake I can test at during the week...

[zudnic]

We are almost certainly moving to Nevada after my lease is up. Probably Henderson closer to the lake. 1.5 hours to Havasu, 20 minutes to Vegas, 15 minutes to the ramp... This I can live with. Right now I am 1.5 hours from Elsinore, which is the only lake I can test at during the week...
Almost every state has these EDC's.... Some have their chit together over others. Clark County: http://www.clark-cty-wi.org/
DCB was just a example..... Should have stuck with Cougar... Besides I'm saving for early to mid 90's Cig. Top Gun, so why em I even in this topic...... :D

[shueman]

Well, figure $8K for a 4.3 liter with an Alpha. $1000 for prop, helm and controls. Figure $1K for all the rigging done cheaply... that's gauges, cleats, tank, no swimstep, horn, lights and rub rail.
Fiberglass at commodity level pricing is about $2/pound. Figure what the boat weighs and you will pay about that. Glass is a little more, resin is a little less, and with a chopper or wet layup you are 70% resin or so. Assume a 21 footer weighs 2,000 pounds or so, you are looking at $4K in material. Add gelcoat (about $1,000 in one color) and a sprayer and you put about $1500 into gel, no tape. So, bare hull would be about $5500-6,000 done hugely cheaply, not including build labor. Add about $600 for that.
Stringers, inner liner, seats, wiring... on the cheap you are looking at $2,000 for all.
No trailer, $18,000 without rigging it. With rigging labor, you are looking at $19,000 probably. Then overhead...
My shop costs about $40,000/month to keep open, no purchasing being done. That is labor, insurance, payroll, workmans comp and medical. I don't get paid. With one mold, you could probably build four a month. Add $10K per boat for overhead.
OK, so your hard and fixed costs are about $29,000. Add a couple thousand for the trailer and you are at say $33,000. Add a couple thousand profit and you are at $36,000.... and remember I still haven't been paid.
For that, you have a four thousand pound 21 with a 4.3 liter V6 in it that may run 45mph. I don't think you would sell many...
For all of that liability, I will take home a profit of $3K? Granted, that is more than I have made on any of my boats I have sold yet... but I don't see going down that road for that kind of profit. Too much exposure.
Right on Wes....way to lay it down as it is... :cool: ;)

[SB]

Froggy, thank you for some very thoughtful posts.
I love your boat, and I hope you do well, although regretfully I am not a potential customer. :D

[Faceaz]

This just ruined it for me.
Before I really got into construction I could look @ a building & appriciate it's looks & architecture. Now after being in construction for 10 years, all I see in nice buildings are all the headaches the builder must have gone through.
Now, when I see a boat, I will be doing the math to try & find what the cost is.
J/K - Thanks for the insight.
Well, figure $8K for a 4.3 liter with an Alpha. $1000 for prop, helm and controls. Figure $1K for all the rigging done cheaply... that's gauges, cleats, tank, no swimstep, horn, lights and rub rail.
Fiberglass at commodity level pricing is about $2/pound. Figure what the boat weighs and you will pay about that. Glass is a little more, resin is a little less, and with a chopper or wet layup you are 70% resin or so. Assume a 21 footer weighs 2,000 pounds or so, you are looking at $4K in material. Add gelcoat (about $1,000 in one color) and a sprayer and you put about $1500 into gel, no tape. So, bare hull would be about $5500-6,000 done hugely cheaply, not including build labor. Add about $600 for that.
Stringers, inner liner, seats, wiring... on the cheap you are looking at $2,000 for all.
No trailer, $18,000 without rigging it. With rigging labor, you are looking at $19,000 probably. Then overhead...
My shop costs about $40,000/month to keep open, no purchasing being done. That is labor, insurance, payroll, workmans comp and medical. I don't get paid. With one mold, you could probably build four a month. Add $10K per boat for overhead.
OK, so your hard and fixed costs are about $29,000. Add a couple thousand for the trailer and you are at say $33,000. Add a couple thousand profit and you are at $36,000.... and remember I still haven't been paid.
For that, you have a four thousand pound 21 with a 4.3 liter V6 in it that may run 45mph. I don't think you would sell many...
For all of that liability, I will take home a profit of $3K? Granted, that is more than I have made on any of my boats I have sold yet... but I don't see going down that road for that kind of profit. Too much exposure.

[Riverdog1]

That's like saying that Mercedes should make a car that competes with Hyundai.
They do...it's called the c230.;) Sorry...I couldn't pass that up.

[Marty Gras]

After reading all of the great input from so many sources, I must ask! Who are your customers? Who will purchase YOUR product? I feel that the "entry level boat VS the custom boat, is not unlike "a Hummer VS a Rav4 question" Some here offer that the "twin jet production boats perform like their custom counterparts". Others here seem to just look at the amenities and not the "basic boat platform". Let me offer this: back in 1994 (yes the LA earthquake year) we had some boats in the LA Boat Show. A 32' tunnel, a 27' V, a 22' openbow, a 20' openbow, a 19' outboard openbow, and a 17' 6" closed deck jet. The 17' 6" jet was our "price leader". It had full stringers, hand layup, 7 colors (base), 350 Chevy motor, Berk or Dom jet, stereo, bezels, ski locker, 2 seating choices. That boat was on sale for $9995.00! (jet skis were $5500.00 ea) Plus an $1150.00 single axle trailer. The boat show price (if arm twisting was done) included a Place Diverter for the jet. EVERYONE LOVED THE 17' JET!!! No one bought it! They all went to larger boats! We sold quite a few boats at that show, but NONE of the 17' jet. We then realized that "our target market people" were downstairs looking at Bayliners! Those people never thought to look up in the "custom boat area". If you really put your 'heart and soul' into your products, you know what they are really worth to you. I too wish the custom boat prices would get more realistic. Maybe I can help. PS, "custom annodized / powdercoat rigging" was the standard for the good brands in the 70's and 80's. Why is it so expensive now?

[Nord]

There were many good points brought up in this thread............HOWEVER!!!!
The point of this thread was more for a person to look at the demographic of the first time buyer who is purchasing the Yamaha, Sea Doo, or Bayliner. There is no arguement of a custom boat being better, but there is a market for some of the big guys to MASS PRODUCE a boat that is a little inferior to their main line that would be profitable for their company. Yes I admit I did not crunch numbers but thats why the thread was started as a question. But I know if a big custom company started an "offshoot" of their company such as "Inferior BY Such and Such" they could mass produce boats for people who could afford these boats> IE the demographic of first time buyers.
Maybe put some Whackers on these things or something. I was just curious of why it wasn't being done. I WAS NOT saying it could be done, it was a just a suggestion or an idea.
I DID NOT SAY THAT THESE BOATS WOULD HAVE THE QUALITY OF A CUSTOM BUILT BOAT!!! NEVER!!! So if you would like to re-read the start of the thread and be up to PAR with the rest of such posts................FEEL FREE!!!!
I do not argue with anyone, I just question thats all :)
HENCE THE START OF A THREAD.....................
~NORD~

[Trailer Park Casanova]

Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Bombardier (Sea Doo) are engine companies.
They build their own proprietary motors for their watercraft.
I think that's a big edge.
Polaris (a U.S. Company) tried using Fuji tractor motors and failed,, because:
The small size watercraft market quickly evolved, and changed faster than a non-engine maker watercraft builder could keep up.
Most the North American watercraft/boat makers (except Bombardier) aren't engine builders.
Kawasaki and Yamaha are slowly & quietly killing Bombardier (Sea Doo) with superior product quality and innovation. I think Baja Mike will back me up on that.
The public is starting to wake up to it, Bombardier isn't.
The French Canadians think because they invented the blow job, the world market is theirs.
Walk down to the launchramp and talk to a new Bombardier owner and ask him about the quality. He will go into a fit. He or she will be beside themself with grief.
Ask a new Honda or Kawasaki owner how they like their watercraft.
They'll smile.
You bring up good questions and a good point Nord,,, I wish I could buy an affordable Advantage or Conquest.

[HOOTER SLED-]

I really like my nearly 20 year old PAID OFF 21 foot jetboat right about now. :) :)

[SB]

Two thoughts
1. SeaDoo is using Merc engines in the bigger jets.
2. Boaters routinely find a 30 year old hull, strip it, replace everything and repower. I can't see that happening with a 30 yr. old SeaDoo or Yamaha jet boat. They are disposable.

[Cigalert]

I'll have to agree with "the boat is priced right". I've got a 06 Yamaha AR210. I've always been into custom boats but I also own my own business so getting away to use a boat isn't too easy at this stage of the game. Do I want to spend $60-$80k on a 26'-28' custom boat that can seat 7-10 people or do I want to spend $30k and seat 9, massive swimstep, stereo with swimsptep controls, 2 jets and built in coolers big enough for a veal?
All in the same year we got the boat we also got:
married
2 new cars
upgrades to the house
major surgery
It was really hard to look at my wife, who's looking at the boat, she's stoked on getting a boat and me bitting the bullet and saying "ok let's get this one". However, after the purchase I must say I'm pretty damn impressed with everything they put into them. I've had to dive off with a mask a knife to cut out ski ropes from old school jets. The yammi has access ports from the swimstep to the topside of the jets. And yes they are helpfull, I've used them more than once to pull all kind of crap out of there. The swimstep is huge.
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/cigalert/GroupPic.jpg
And best of all chicks don't mind that it's a yamaha.
Things I don't like about the yammi. Well, I'll tell you...
It's a kidney beater even though it sits pretty high out of the water. 2900lbs dry weight isn't enough to cut through anything.
When sitting it's weighted slightly nose down and ass up. Not a problem for women, just boats.
It sounds like butt. Seriously, it makes all the guys from queer eye sound like James Earl Jones.
Warranty issues need to be handled by Yamaha but gone through dealerships which they have no clue about boats...pwc's maybe, nothing about boats. Boats are too new for most dealers.
All in all, my boat is up for sale and I'm buying into the "custom" market.

[Jbb]

The 95 Speedster I had had a flawless finish.....everything fit perfectly....It ran as advertised....the Rotax engines were tough as nails....I beat its ass hard....and they spun at 6950 rpm all day without a hiccup.....
I dont know much about boat building.....but mine held together quite well...
for a non custom boat....

[Froggystyle]

Just out of curiosity, I haven't been around much, how many boats have you sold? You sound like you're a little down about sales, so I'm assuming it's not many.
Three. Building number five right now. Sales are non-existant. I mean... nothing.
I get ten phone calls a day from potential buyers. All ask for a quote, all get a quote, and everyone can't wait to come take a ride.
Then that is it. I think the boat is more expensive than people can justify given the huge used market right now.
I am beginning to think I just suck at selling boats. I am really honest, tell it how it is, and recommend options for people. I don't bait and switch, though I think I could close a lot more people with an advertised base price and then sucker them into deck cleats... but that isn't how I work.
As I mentioned, the military thing may be our best hope right now. They clearly see the advantage over other boats and I will go from a $140,000 cost to build being sold for $140,000 to a $80K cost to build being sold for $250,000. Seems like a better market for me... ;)
Powerboat really liked the boat, and that article comes out next week. As I said, if accolades like that don't sell boats, I will be out of ideas.

[Froggystyle]

There were many good points brought up in this thread............HOWEVER!!!!
The point of this thread was more for a person to look at the demographic of the first time buyer who is purchasing the Yamaha, Sea Doo, or Bayliner. There is no arguement of a custom boat being better, but there is a market for some of the big guys to MASS PRODUCE a boat that is a little inferior to their main line that would be profitable for their company.
Right... your question has been answered... you need the volume of a company four times the size of the largest boat manufacturer to begin to take a crack at the efficiencies of scale possible by the larger manufacturers.
I disagree that the custom boat is better also. Any custom boat that was anywhere near that cheap would have to be built with essentially no overhead, unskilled labor and garbage parts. The companies mentioned have departments actively building things like shifters made of injected plastic that cost probably less than $25 to make. Unless by some miracle some custom manufacturer was able to see a sales volume and benefit to making their own shifters to compete with a $25 unit... it becomes one of fifty parts that we will lose money hand over fist on competing with.
The boat wouldn't be a little inferior... it would be garbage. You would be way better off buying the Yamaha. Period.

[Trailer Park Casanova]

Two thoughts
1. SeaDoo is using Merc engines in the bigger jets.
2. Boaters routinely find a 30 year old hull, strip it, replace everything and repower. I can't see that happening with a 30 yr. old SeaDoo or Yamaha jet boat. They are disposable.
Sea Doo dropped their contract with Mercury in '05 inclusive.
And they only used the Merc in limited applications.
It was purely for emissions until they could bring their 3 cylinder, 4 stroke supercharged motor up to production.
Sea Doo / Bombardier use their own Rotax brand motors once again.
And yes, the cantankerous 2 strokes are bic lighters, use um', and toss um'.
It'll be interesting to see how these new high HP 4 strokes pan out in the future.
Nothing but GM engine boats for this kid in the future. Detroit iron still rules in my book after all these decades.
And I learned the expensive, thick skulled, hard way.

[Jbb]

Sea Doo dropped their contract with Mercury in '05 inclusive.
And they only used the Merc in limited applications.
It was purely for emissions until they could bring their 3 cylinder, 4 stroke supercharged motor up to production.
Sea Doo / Bombardier use their own Rotax brand motors once again.
And yes, the cantankerous 2 strokes are bic lighters, use um', and toss um'.
It'll be interesting to see how these new high HP 4 strokes pan out in the future.
Nothing but GM engine boats for this kid in the future. Detroit iron still rules in my book after all these decades.
And I learned the expensive, thick skulled, hard way.
You had issues with the Rotax motors?

[Froggystyle]

I hate to say it and you don't want to hear it, but you need a salesman. Your problem, like me, is you have a hard time selling something to somebody that you know they don't need. People don't need $140k boats. You need somebody with no conscience. Good luck
Tell me about it. People with lots of money seem to see the benefit, as they truly want the best. Those folks are waiting for the article.
I need to stop mentioning that it is coming out... ;) I think it has put four real sales on hold... :D

[MR HARLEY]

They already did
it's called
LIGHTENING(SP)
and
GENESIS
:D

[beaverretriever]

Three. Building number five right now. Sales are non-existant. I mean... nothing.
I get ten phone calls a day from potential buyers. All ask for a quote, all get a quote, and everyone can't wait to come take a ride.
Then that is it. I think the boat is more expensive than people can justify given the huge used market right now.
I am beginning to think I just suck at selling boats. I am really honest, tell it how it is, and recommend options for people. I don't bait and switch, though I think I could close a lot more people with an advertised base price and then sucker them into deck cleats... but that isn't how I work.
As I mentioned, the military thing may be our best hope right now. They clearly see the advantage over other boats and I will go from a $140,000 cost to build being sold for $140,000 to a $80K cost to build being sold for $250,000. Seems like a better market for me... ;)
Powerboat really liked the boat, and that article comes out next week. As I said, if accolades like that don't sell boats, I will be out of ideas.
Hey, you have me sold. If you move to Henderson I can sell for you on the side to pay our new Trident off.:D
3yrs is the norm before any new company makes any kind of profit. Not sure exactly how long you have been in business.
Good things come to people who work hard, believe in and stand behind their product (and if there is ANYONE who believes in their own product, it is you).

[Froggystyle]

Hey, you have me sold. If you move to Henderson I can sell for you on the side to pay our new Trident off.:D
3yrs is the norm before any new company makes any kind of profit. Not sure exactly how long you have been in business.
Good things come to people who work hard, believe in and stand behind their product (and if there is ANYONE who believes in their own product, it is you).
Aw shucks... :D
How about you sell on the side now? You are in sales, and good at it.
We have been selling now for about a year. I am in no danger of making a profit.. :D

[superdave013]

Hang in there and keep your chin up Froggy. It just takes time. That Powerboat write up might be very helpfull. Might even sell some boats. But the question is when are those people ready to buy? They might be sold and the very next boat they buy will be yours. But..... they'll want to get another season or 2 out of what they have.
I have guys look at my stuff and like it. Grab a flyer and some biz cards and say they will call when ready. Then don't hear from them ..... until 6 ~ 8 months later when they do get to that point. I guess what I'm sayin is it just takes time.

[Froggystyle]

Hang in there and keep your chin up Froggy. It just takes time. That Powerboat write up might be very helpfull. Might even sell some boats. But the question is when are those people ready to buy? They might be sold and the very next boat they buy will be yours. But..... they'll want to get another season or 2 out of what they have.
I have guys look at my stuff and like it. Grab a flyer and some biz cards and say they will call when ready. Then don't hear from them ..... until 6 ~ 8 months later when they do get to that point. I guess what I'm sayin is it just takes time.
I know we are a lot of folks "next boat" but like you said, most had just built boats during the recent boom and aren't ready for new ones. I know of several folks that really wish they had heard of us before buying their new $150K+ deckboats and such. More wish we had released them a couple years earlier when they were ready last time.
No question it took us time to come to market with a boat I felt was "done". And now that it is, we have to wait out the cycle until the next buying boom comes around. I guess the good news is, there will be a lot less competition, because I know that I am not the only one feeling the pinch right now... and my overhead is low compared to some.

[Pussywhippled]

Froggystyle,
It is real refreshing to hear someone on "***boat" actually tell the truth rather than sugar coat it day in and day out living the Southern California lie-style.
I haven't really cared what you've had to say over the last couple of years I've been on here. Only knowing what you post on here, you seem like a pretty articulate person.
I now have more respect for you as person and a fellow business owner fighting the fight. You know as well as I do collecting a paycheck every week would be the easier route to go.
I had a meeting with a Billionare yesterday morning at his new 705,000 sq ft building. He started his business in 1955 with $125.00 and only now recently considers himself sucessful. So you (we) still have have a shot...
I have a total different outlook on business and life because of meeting with him.

[Froggystyle]

Froggystyle,
It is real refreshing to hear someone on "***boat" actually tell the truth rather than sugar coat it day in and day out living the Southern California lie-style.
I haven't really cared what you've had to say over the last couple of years I've been on here. Only knowing what you post on here, you seem like a pretty articulate person.
I now have more respect for you as person and a fellow business owner fighting the fight. You know as well as I do collecting a paycheck every week would be the easier route to go.
I had a meeting with a Billionare yesterday morning at his new 705,000 sq ft building. He started his business in 1955 with $125.00 and only now recently considers himself sucessful. So you (we) still have have a shot...
I have a total different outlook on business and life because of meeting with him.
Hindsight is 20/20, and I wish I had done some things differently. If I hadn't invested so much time and energy into the dual jet thing, I would probably be worse off today in the long run because I would be working on my third Ferrari and still facing the same business climate everyone else is! :D
The good news for custom boaters is that at least three of the big companies have big money behind them. Magic, Conquest and Eliminator. The smaller companies are struggling right now, and unfortunately/fortunately there is going to be a lot less of them in the coming year or so. Companies have been sold in the last month or so in fact, so with renewed money put towards them, they may take this opportunity to gain some market share. That is our plan in any case. We will be here when people are ready to buy boats again, but I am putting a lot of energy towards developing some products that aren't going to allow us to weather these downturns.
Currently, we are marketing our infusion and boatbuilding capabilities to other manufacturers in different areas, like carbon fiber body panels for race cars and planes, radar domes and the like. We are looking to build some cored structures for Humvees and other related equipment. I have been developing a system of armoring lightweight vehicles for a couple of years now, and it is finally coming to fruition. Funny thing is, the military variant we are building will likely sell well to the civilian hunting market, as well as the government search and rescue level... so the dual drive episode may not be a waste afterall... Most government agencies don't want to go faster than 60, and the dual drive does everything below 60 far better than a prop... including carry tons of weight.
The market will come around, and we will still be building boats. That is one nice thing about having millionaires behind you I guess. My investors are in for the long haul, and believe hugely in the project. They are smarter folks than I am, and they know about cycles.
It will likely be a long year though... and one full of continued development headaches for me.
Thanks for the good words though...
Wes

[djunkie]

I really like my nearly 20 year old PAID OFF 21 foot jetboat right about now. :) :)
Same here. Except its not a jet boat. :yuk: :D :D

[beaverretriever]

I know we are a lot of folks "next boat"
:D :D ;)

[Nord]

Shocker Wes would find a way to jack this thread:rolleyes: :devil: :)

[Froggystyle]

:D :D ;)
One of many bro... don't feel bad! :D
I am proud as hell of that fact. I know we will do well as soon as the market comes around. The boat is the bomb... we just need some folks to sell it to.
:D

[Froggystyle]

Shocker Wes would find a way to jack this thread:rolleyes: :devil: :)
You sound pissed?
I thought I provided you with some pretty good info about cost to build, the economic climate and valid reasons you won't see custom manufacturers participating in the lowest price ranges...
Sorry for answering all of your questions...
Never mind what I said Nord... we will all jump right on it. Great idea! :rolleyes:

[USCFAN]

Wes, I had the pleasure of meeting you in Havasu during the poker run. The boat is sick and it was great that you took the time out of your day to answer every question I had. As I am sure you already know people remember the little things. ;)
Being a business owner I understand the challenges you are faced with day-to-day, and just wanted to say keep on doing what you are doing. For you to come on here and be as candid as you have been, not only on this subject but others. Has given me and I am sure countless others a lot of information we may not have otherwise gotten. And its good to know you will be around for years to come although thinks haven't taken off like you would like them to. Trident is definetly one of the few manufacters I will be taken a hard look at for my next boat. Not just because the boat is nice, but also because the owner is a stand up guy.

[76ANTHONY]

Same here. Except its not a jet boat. :yuk: :D :D
biatch thats my fricken boat!!!!!!:mad: :D :D

[HM]

You sound pissed?
That is funny....I have my speakers on and I didn't hear a thing! :) :) :) :)

[BDMar]

That is the most ignorent comment you ever posted. First off it is LIGHTNING not Lightening (That was a hard one).
There is some very good info in this thread. With that being said I can't stop laughing at this post picking on Killr's spelling, while socalmofo spells ignorant wrong! :D :D

[Froggystyle]

That is funny....I have my speakers on and I didn't hear a thing! :) :) :) :)
I am using Vista... it is that cool... :D

[HM]

I am using Vista... it is that cool... :D
You have a gig of ram? Sweet!!!
I just setup a NAS backup server with a Tera byte hard drive.

[CAHotRodBoy]

Three. Building number five right now. Sales are non-existant. I mean... nothing.
I get ten phone calls a day from potential buyers. All ask for a quote, all get a quote, and everyone can't wait to come take a ride.
Then that is it. I think the boat is more expensive than people can justify given the huge used market right now.
I am beginning to think I just suck at selling boats. I am really honest, tell it how it is, and recommend options for people. I don't bait and switch, though I think I could close a lot more people with an advertised base price and then sucker them into deck cleats... but that isn't how I work.
As I mentioned, the military thing may be our best hope right now. They clearly see the advantage over other boats and I will go from a $140,000 cost to build being sold for $140,000 to a $80K cost to build being sold for $250,000. Seems like a better market for me... ;)
Powerboat really liked the boat, and that article comes out next week. As I said, if accolades like that don't sell boats, I will be out of ideas.
Have you tried developing a relationship with some lending institutions? If you are pulling in potential customers but can't close them on the spot by offering them "easy payments" that can be a big problem. Customer's don't want to shop for a boat and a loan. They want to do a one stop purchase. Have you ever had a car salesman ask you how much you want to pay for a car? No, they ask you how much do you want to pay per month. If you have the ability to get them funded while they are still at your shop you eliminate a big obstical in the sales cycle. A.B.C. baby! (I'm in sales too!:D )

[Mr Nice Guy]

With all the other custom boat companys out there selling boats and Wes the expert who has sold 3 or 5 boats in 3 or 4 years how many of your Tridents have failed was it 2 or 3 that have blown up the motors. Let us not forget the twin jet failure. It will not be long before you will be on the out of biz list. Dad has got to be getting tired of you blowing all his money. Oh well I guess DCB -Eliminator- Lavey- Ultra- Shockwave and all the other custom builders are doing it all wrong. This guy is blowing smoke.

[squirt'nmyload]

With all the other custom boat companys out there selling boats and Wes the expert who has sold 3 or 5 boats in 3 or 4 years how many of your Tridents have failed was it 2 or 3 that have blown up the motors. Let us not forget the twin jet failure. It will not be long before you will be on the out of biz list. Dad has got to be getting tired of you blowing all his money. Oh well I guess DCB -Eliminator- Lavey- Ultra- Shockwave and all the other custom builders are doing it all wrong. This guy is blowing smoke.
:jawdrop:

[GETSOME]

With all the other custom boat companys out there selling boats and Wes the expert who has sold 3 or 5 boats in 3 or 4 years how many of your Tridents have failed was it 2 or 3 that have blown up the motors. Let us not forget the twin jet failure. It will not be long before you will be on the out of biz list. Dad has got to be getting tired of you blowing all his money. Oh well I guess DCB -Eliminator- Lavey- Ultra- Shockwave and all the other custom builders are doing it all wrong. This guy is blowing smoke.
I think it people like you that make the ***boat community look like drama.
Being a new boat company with new ideas you cant win them all. But when you find the right one like he has now i think he will go big once the market turns. So please keep you thoughts to yourself because no one wants to hear them.

[HM]

It's pretty obvious where your name originated.
His is as accurate as yours. :D

[Jbb]

With all the other custom boat companys out there selling boats and Wes the expert who has sold 3 or 5 boats in 3 or 4 years how many of your Tridents have failed was it 2 or 3 that have blown up the motors. Let us not forget the twin jet failure. It will not be long before you will be on the out of biz list. Dad has got to be getting tired of you blowing all his money. Oh well I guess DCB -Eliminator- Lavey- Ultra- Shockwave and all the other custom builders are doing it all wrong. This guy is blowing smoke.
Blowing smoke.....I think not......It takes a lot of fortitude to start from the ground up in this business.......and an even bigger pair of balls to share it here...from day one......knowing haters ...like you ...lurk around every corner....
No one knows what the future holds for any business........I hope he sells more of them than he can build.......Yep...someones blowin smoke....but it aint him....

[beaverretriever]

With all the other custom boat companys out there selling boats and Wes the expert who has sold 3 or 5 boats in 3 or 4 years how many of your Tridents have failed was it 2 or 3 that have blown up the motors. Let us not forget the twin jet failure. It will not be long before you will be on the out of biz list. Dad has got to be getting tired of you blowing all his money. Oh well I guess DCB -Eliminator- Lavey- Ultra- Shockwave and all the other custom builders are doing it all wrong. This guy is blowing smoke.
Yeah, you are right. Elim, DCB, etc did it right the very first time. The first, second and even the third boats out of the mold were flawless and they have never improved on one thing in their yrs of business.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Wes, is really going out on a limb jumping into a business that is saturated. He is not scared to try new designs, materials, power, etc. Of course, many will fail and some will be successful. Isn't that the norm?
Out of the 21 times you have posted, I don't think I have seen one positive thing written. You are the most negative person I have seen on here in a while.
BTW, our next boat after the one being built will be a Trident. So, I guess we can add another one to his list of boats built in the near future. :)
Good day.

[TRG]

A little food for thought!
I still dont see why a boat man. can come out with a budget 18-21' jet that could be afforded by anyone???
Just look at some of the cars the youngsters drive today,...wether it be a benzo or an escalade hooked to the hill!
50K is nothing to finance anymore!
-18' Jet hull, figuring the manufacturer is not making "DOUBLE" of what it should cost! (the everyday joe does not need a infused hull or a carbon lay'd-up hull!) $8,000.00 (Lil high in my book)
-seating and carpet hell well tack on roughly 3k wich is what you would pay to have a shop completely rebuild two buckets, bench and maybe some side panels,...also a bt high!
-Jet pump if im not mistaken around,...7K (would'nt know, i buy junk and make it work! lol
-BBC say,... 454 H.O. crate engine (right outta summit)-4,995.95
Remember just a guy lookin to get out on the water, and not looking to get much into the performance end of boating!
guages, steering, wiring, batt. headers (manifolds, like the man. offered back in the day!)
Lets just say we'll be a little bit fat on this one 5K
where are we now bean counters??
The way i figure, any boat builder can make one hell of a good looking jet boat for well under 30K am i mistaken?
we also know that the west coast boat man. are in a slump because i know i cannot afford even a 21' jet because the boats anymore are not even custom, all of the add-ons that used to make someones boat stand out, are now standard!
I think people would be quite suprised at how many of us would shell out some good money for a nice "NEW" River Cruiser maybe some new aged body lines (I know the cost in molds would probably be an issue!) not to get off the "Budget" topic that ive been rambling on about, but dont you guys think this could be alot easier to accomplish rather that hoping for the big fish to walk into your boat shop and drop 300K on a brand new X type something with 5 thousand Hp? the odd thing is, is that those Big Bucks guys are running around out there with that kind of cheddah! lol
I' always heard a saying, "A classic never dies, it just gets BETTER!"
Lambo's are nice too, but i'de rather drive my 68' maro!
Im done!
Sorry for the rant!
P.S. you guys might have already covered this stuff i just went right to the end and replied!
Todd

[Marty Gras]

You have some great points, but the realities are much more costly. 20' is a USCG 'breaking point' for a number of requirements. Cost wise, floatation would be the first problem for a boat under 20'. Interrior, materials, layout, and finish will make up a major item in your overall costs. "two buckets and a bench" sounds great for a $3500.00 boat, but not for a new $35,000.00 boat. Also, to the guy who said "why not just throw on an outboard?" Because they are more costly (per power) than a jet or I/O package. The 'outside' costs, insurance, worker's comp., rent, payroll, and then the "license and tax guys", really do effect the overall costs in boat production. Business lenders won't look at anything that doesn't have a MINIMUM of 25% profit, and I don't think anyone can build a "saleable product" for the amounts and examples you have given. "crate motors" don't have: carb, dist, starter, exhaust, mounts, and now let's talk about all of the hardware being USCG. Don't forget that GM crate motors, "are not intended for marine use", no warranty. I could go on but, I hope you get my point. PS, the interrior for a new openbow 21' boat, without carpeting costs $5500.00, not cheap! You want a new boat in WHAT price range?

[Froggystyle]

With all the other custom boat companys out there selling boats and Wes the expert who has sold 3 or 5 boats in 3 or 4 years how many of your Tridents have failed was it 2 or 3 that have blown up the motors. Let us not forget the twin jet failure. It will not be long before you will be on the out of biz list. Dad has got to be getting tired of you blowing all his money. Oh well I guess DCB -Eliminator- Lavey- Ultra- Shockwave and all the other custom builders are doing it all wrong. This guy is blowing smoke.
How about you let me worry about my clients, and you worry about yours. Sounds like you are really trying to be helpful though. I think you will be a big asset to the forums... keep on truckin!
For anyone who cares, my second client is being converted to an I/O on my dime, and the dual drive manufacturer gave us our money back on the units we couldn't make work up to our standards. If anyone wants a great deal on two brand new 950hp twin turbo badass motors... let me know... ;) He was the only one on the water when we switched, and his sizeable discount on purchase was given with the understanding that his boat was a test bed, and improvements were going to be made to it as we furthered development.
The second client that was slated for a dual drive boat was returned his deposit and told that we didn't feel comfortable selling boats with that drive, and we were holding off on sales until we thoroughly tested the stern drive variant. It has since been tested, evaluated by magazines and sold to a very happy client.
#4 is for sale, but apparently according to Mr. Nice Guy we are on our way out... so who knows what happens tomorrow. Evidently my Dad is pissed too, guess I should see about that. If he thinks Dad is pissed, he should see how stoked my wife is having supported us for five years.
You kids have fun in here. Thanks for the support also guys... I mean it.

[TRG]

You have some great points, but the realities are much more costly. 20' is a USCG 'breaking point' for a number of requirements. Cost wise, floatation would be the first problem for a boat under 20'. Interrior, materials, layout, and finish will make up a major item in your overall costs. "two buckets and a bench" sounds great for a $3500.00 boat, but not for a new $35,000.00 boat. Also, to the guy who said "why not just throw on an outboard?" Because they are more costly (per power) than a jet or I/O package. The 'outside' costs, insurance, worker's comp., rent, payroll, and then the "license and tax guys", really do effect the overall costs in boat production. Business lenders won't look at anything that doesn't have a MINIMUM of 25% profit, and I don't think anyone can build a "saleable product" for the amounts and examples you have given. "crate motors" don't have: carb, dist, starter, exhaust, mounts, and now let's talk about all of the hardware being USCG. Don't forget that GM crate motors, "are not intended for marine use", no warranty. I could go on but, I hope you get my point. PS, the interrior for a new openbow 21' boat, without carpeting costs $5500.00, not cheap! You want a new boat in WHAT price range?
Though i do not know any of the guidelines that the coast guard enforces, i was only talking about a boat of 18' in size when i referred to the cost of products. Remember in my post, i installed a "FAT" est. of 5 grand for the odds and ends, this is an 18' jet boat that i was building in my post, nothing too custom for the guy that i am referring to,...just the like the guy that went to yamaha to buy a 29,000 jet ski to ride "IN" i figure that if the guy wants a 18'jet ski, he may as well get something a little more personaly designed, this is all i was trying to get at in my first post!
BTW, i was unsure that anything in the 18'-21' had to have flotation, other than something that was going to be used to race, i know you can cut a ranger bass boat in half and get back to the trailer (While on the water!)!
one more thing i forgot to mention, the cost of interior for a bench two buckets carpet (40 oz) and side panels with all new wood was just under 2K (i over estimated there as well) for an 18' jet boat as i was referring to in the earlier post, sometimes i dont proofread my posts, i can see how my wording can get a lil cloudy!
I'll give you the motor thing, would'nt have a clue what stock costs.but i pulled the H.O. motor from summit pg.111 im sure stock power for marine appl. isnt too terribly far off 5,000.00 i chose 454 for ins. purposes.

[Nord]

Hey, I give Wes a lot of credit for what he is doing. Instead of bullsh*ting on here all of the time, at least he is giving his dream a shot. Even if he has only sold a couple of boats, at least he is following through with an idea.....

[Nord]

It's pretty obvious where your name originated.
lol
you kill me !!!

[socalmofo]

There is some very good info in this thread. With that being said I can't stop laughing at this post picking on Killr's spelling, while socalmofo spells ignorant wrong! :D :D
That is pretty funny, I'll admit it. I should have know not to mess with the camp leader, the great Kilrtoy:rolleyes:

[lucky]

well - this thread has emerged quite well - its time --- RD SUCKS :D

[Nord]

ttt:D

[nodigg]

I don't see how that matters a bit personally. It doesn't matter how you earned it, through cash or credit... it is your accomplishment. I don't own anything anymore... used to own everything outright.
I have much nicer stuff now though. I would rather owe and have nice stuff than have BS and own it outright.
If I had to pay cash for everything to feel cool, I would still be living in a trailer in Sonoma, saving for a used car.
WHOA! Wes! Gotta take issue with this one. Naw, nevermind, WTF!

[Havasu Sun]

Why don't you go back to drowning puppies and leave us alone! Jacka$$!
:devil:

[Marty Gras]

"Todd.." don't get me wrong! You really do have the right idea, it's just not as simple for a business to do. You (in your own garage) can build any boat, any way that you like. As a boat mfg. responsible companies have rules that they must follow. USCG and company liability are the most powerfull forces in this arena, and next would be stockholders. I don't think anyone in the west coast custom builder area would bother to bring out a new boat under 20'. There is just not enough money in it to "R&D" then "produce". Big east coast, brand names build thousands of boats each year and it can be profitable for them to build some boats under 20'. None of them will have the power or options that you require, but someone will purchase them. On the other hand, if I built 50 nice 18' jet boats and sold them for $25k each, and then I sold another 50 nice 25' boats for $60k each, which one gives me more liability? Well you guessed, it's about the same, but I made a s#!+ load more money selling 25's than 18's, so why would I build 18's? They take pretty much the same labor and materials. (20% or so)

[Riverdog1]

Two thoughts
1. SeaDoo is using Merc engines in the bigger jets.
2. Boaters routinely find a 30 year old hull, strip it, replace everything and repower. I can't see that happening with a 30 yr. old SeaDoo or Yamaha jet boat. They are disposable.
Thank You...I replaced my 79 with a 78. More performance. Just like the car industry, the Camero and Vette went to shit in the 80's. They turned them into gutless wonders. They even put 4 bangers in some Cameros. They are just getting back to building some HP in cars. The custom boats build the good bottoms, better rigging, more hp, "accurate Speedos" not rigged to match advertised specs, etc...I guess there is a place for all entry level jets. People now days aren't willing to put the work into one any more and don't care too much about performance. If it floats and it goes, it's all good. At anyrate, that's the same demographic that does not want or need to take the time to learn the waterways and courtesies thereof.

[DMOORE]

With all the other custom boat companys out there selling boats and Wes the expert who has sold 3 or 5 boats in 3 or 4 years how many of your Tridents have failed was it 2 or 3 that have blown up the motors. Let us not forget the twin jet failure. It will not be long before you will be on the out of biz list. Dad has got to be getting tired of you blowing all his money. Oh well I guess DCB -Eliminator- Lavey- Ultra- Shockwave and all the other custom builders are doing it all wrong. This guy is blowing smoke.
My guess would be that you have never started a company. Otherwise you would have a clue as to what it takes to start a company from scratch, and become profitable.
Darrell.