Tunnel Rams

[76miller]

What tunnel rams are you guys running on your Big Block FORDS ? I have a set of Pro Comp alum. heads that I'm about to port and I'm trying to decide what tunnel ram intake to run. I heard the Weiand's dont flow that well ??? Any thoughts, pics, comments ???

[LakesOnly]

76 Miller,
Both Weiand and Offenhauser offer cast 2x4 tunnel rams. The Offy comes with SCJ-sized ports as cast, and the Weiand has passenger car-sized ports as cast but can pretty much be ported to SCJ-size.
Since you have the ProCrap cylinder heads, you should probably purchase the Weiand since it has ports that are the same size as the ProCrap's intake ports. It does require some detail work in the plenum area but the results exceed the effort put into the cleanup of the plenum..
LO

[junkyardhunter]

He said PRO CRAP:D :) :D

[76miller]

Ya ya, pro crap. Ya there not the best heads "out of the box", but there better than stock(95cc/300runners) and are capable of some real growth after porting. After I'm done with them they will have a 2.3 intake, and a 1.8 exhaust valve. Not so crappy now, are they ! I think Pro Comp might have pissed in Ol' Lakes wheaties, cause he always bashes every time he gets a chance??????

[dmontzsta]

Ya ya, pro crap. Ya there not the best heads "out of the box", but there better than stock(95cc/300runners) and are capable of some real growth after porting. After I'm done with them they will have a 2.3 intake, and a 1.8 exhaust valve. Not so crappy now, are they ! I think Pro Comp might have pissed in Ol' Lakes wheaties, cause he always bashes every time he gets a chance??????
I think he just knows alot about heads. :)

[vee-driven]

throw a blower on it and stop fukn around buddy. i heard you can get a 10-71 blowershop setup for under 3g's

[76miller]

I just got done putting four more grand into the pump ! I'm waiting till next year for any more big upgrades otherwise I'll be at the river about as much as you !! ha ha.

[pw_Tony]

I just got done putting four more grand into the pump ! I'm waiting till next year for any more big upgrades otherwise I'll be at the river about as much as you !! ha ha.
I have a BDS blower intake with a 6-71 that I was planning to use but would sell them to yah if yah want for $1000 if you're interested. If not I'll just keep them and put them on my boat...

[dmontzsta]

I just got done putting four more grand into the pump ! I'm waiting till next year for any more big upgrades otherwise I'll be at the river about as much as you !! ha ha.
$4k into a pump? stop jacking around and get a V-Drive! :D Throw money into the motor and go fast!:)

[76miller]

PW, Thanks for the offer, but I'm gonna have to pass. Can't swing anymore upgrades at the moment. 76miller

[LakesOnly]

Ya ya, pro crap. Ya there not the best heads "out of the box", but there better than stock(95cc/300runners) and are capable of some real growth after porting. After I'm done with them they will have a 2.3 intake, and a 1.8 exhaust valve. Not so crappy now, are they ! I think Pro Comp might have pissed in Ol' Lakes wheaties, cause he always bashes every time he gets a chance??????76 Miller,
I am not taking a personal jab at you nor do I believe myself to be the type that "bashes." Conversely, I feel that I offer a tremendous amount of feedback to others that ask for information here on ***boat and elsewhere...just as I have offered information in reply to your inquiry about the cast tunnel ram options in this very thread.
I call those heads ProCraps here in this thread just as I have referred to them elsewhere in these Forums and other forums as well. That's how I see them and that's how I will refer to them. The fact is that in the area of aftermarket aluminum cylinder heads that are available for the 429/460 engine family, I say that the PRoCraps are without a doubt at the very, very bottom of the list regardless of engine application, size, rpm range, etc.
ProComp has not "pissed in my corn flakes" and in fact we are a top tier ProComp dealer via my business partner. But to date I will not be so low as to sell those heads to anybody. Period.
To say that those ProCrap heads will offer more power than the factory iron with all else being the same between the two engines, save for a cam grind relative to each cylinder head ulitized, is nothing short of ludicrous. In fact, there are virtues in the factory iron that cannot be found in the ProCrap head.
Finally, good luck fitting 2.300" & 1.800" valves in your ProCraps; the spacing between the intake and exhaust valve guides simply do not allow for that valve combination.
LO

[76miller]

Dmontzsta, one day I will have both, but for now I'll just keep spending money on this jet boat ! Plus, I really like Blythe area, and we all know how shallow it is out there.

[76miller]

Lakes, I agree that you give good advice on the boards, but I don't really think "bashing" someones combination is very cool. You have made it very clear your pannies are in a bunch, calm down its just ***boat:) . Thanks for the luck with my valve spacing, they turned out bitchin.

[pw_Tony]

Lakes, I agree that you give good advice on the boards, but I don't really think "bashing" someones combination is very cool. You have made it very clear your pannies are in a bunch, calm down its just ***boat:) . Thanks for the luck with my valve spacing, they turned out bitchin.
So you did get the valves in?

[76miller]

PW, there waiting for me at the machine shop right now. I just have to figure out the new cam specs, and rejet.

[pw_Tony]

PW, there waiting for me at the machine shop right now. I just have to figure out the new cam specs, and rejet.
Shibby! I love proving people wrong:D :D

[vee-driven]

I just got done putting four more grand into the pump ! I'm waiting till next year for any more big upgrades otherwise I'll be at the river about as much as you !! ha ha.
hahahahahahahaha your fukn funny, i got tooooo many projects right now. ill be there but i am sure you wont see me though because ill be sooooo far ahead of you it will make your head :) j/k

[vee-driven]

PW, there waiting for me at the machine shop right now. I just have to figure out the new cam specs, and rejet.
i hope you didn't go to vellio's

[vee-driven]

I think circus center in lomita put those heads on 2, 383's my dads friend had built and both motors grenaded in no time, dropped valves like the floater and junked everything. I was curious how an aluminum headed 383 could be that cheap and i have exellent connections, now i know, junk parts.

[76miller]

I'll line up with your jet boat any day of the week Patrick !Oh wait I did and it grenaded! Rest in peace floater. Lets try it again with the next one.:) Anything coming out of service center is questionable,first problem is with the high school kid assembly line! Plus, your talking apples and oranges as far as application, 383 in a car or big block in a jet boat, many many different factors(parts used, installed correctly, etc.) How about you finish a project, and we have this discussion with beer in hand at the river, I'll be out there three different times this month. Call me up.

[LakesOnly]

Lakes, I agree that you give good advice on the boards, but I don't really think "bashing" someones combination is very cool. You have made it very clear your pannies are in a bunch, calm down its just ***boat:) . Thanks for the luck with my valve spacing, they turned out bitchin.76 Miller,
I don't believe I have bashed your combination at all; rather, I have tried to help you with your combination.
My nickname for the cylinder head you are using is just that; a nickname. No need for you to take offense.
Now I'd like to try to help you a little more:
The ProCrap's intake seat's diameter is something like 2.312" (don't quote me, that number is off the top of my head), so not only is installing 2.300"/1.800" valves pushing it (assuming that combo is even possible), but when it comes time to recut the sunken seats you will be SOL and would have to replace seats. For this reason (and more reasons to follow below), utilizing such a valve/head combo is immediately dismissed by anyone that knows what they are doing.
The only way that a 2.300" intake & 1.800" exhaust valve combo might physically fit without clipping during engine operation is by turning the valve heads down, thereby making them smaller valves, in effect, than the sizes you say are in the cylinder heads. But given the actual size of the valves as delivered, prepare for your valves to clip and likely destroy your engine the moment you start it. If the valves don't clip and your engine runs, then you don't have the valve sizes you claim that you do and the shop turned the valve head diameter(s) down.
The only other way to succesfully fit and run those valve sizes would be to spread the valve guides apart about an additional .100"; with this approach one would have so much money into the heads that they might be eligible for the Darwin Awards, considering how much more head they can get elsewhere for the cost generated for the price of the ProCraps and all the mods.
The 2.300" headed intake valve is such a huge valve for the ProCrap's D3VE-sized intake port that the incoming charge will be ridiculously shrouded at the low lifts and so, technically, you have just taken the worst aluminum 460-applicable head on the planet and made that characteristic even worse yet. Porting will offer little help in those lift numbers (combined with a 2.300 intake valve) because of the shape of the short turn radius that those heads are plagued with.
Any honest, knowledgable and reputable machine shop, upon evaluating the cylinder heads, would have called and advised you of the services that you requested of them...assuming they understand all of this and what they are working on. Either they don't understand what they have gotten themselves into and you have unwisely spent your money, or perhaps they know damn well what they are doing and milking you for all you are worth.
Just trying to help; feel free to call or PM with any more assistance that you might need.
LO

[pw_Tony]

Even though this thread was bout tunnel rams oh well...
Maybe 76 Miller can have the heads flowed just to know for sure what cam and such he needs. And to shut people up or shut himself up, one of the two.
I never did believe the Pro Comp flow numbers but maybe it's time for someone to find out:)

[76miller]

Lakes, I called up Pro Comp and asked them the flow numbers, and also what these heads could be safely ported to, and those were the numbers they rattled off(2.3int and1.8exh.). So, I asked them who ports their heads and they referred me to a shop out in Ontario, Ca. I can't remember the name of the shop off the top of my head but they apparently do this all the time, or so they say. I'm guilty of only knowing what they tell me so your post makes me very nervous. Maybe they don't port them that big, but they say they do over the phone. I understand the picture you painted, and I asked them is there room for that big of a port, and they replied, yes. So not sure what to do. Thanks for the advice, never meant any harm. 76miller

[RiverRacer]

What Paul is telling you is correct. I had a set come in maybe 3 months ago that the Valves(2.3" x 1.8") had clipped(hit on the edges closest to each other)so badly I had to beat them out with a punch. Thank god they didn't break, but the cam was only about .600" lift.
As far as the TR, the Offenhauser has a bigger Plenum and will work better in unmodified form on a typical performance(non competition) engine. The Weiand, on the other hand, will do better when the plenum and runners are welded, resectioned($$$) and port matched to the Cylinder Heads being used.
NEITHER of these Intakes is anything to write home about(I have, and use, 1 of each). If you want the best, grab $3500 in change from your piggy bank and call Wilson or Hogan's. Good luck with your Heads. RR

[Sleeper CP]

76 Miller,
From one Ford guy to another I hope your build turns out fine. Hopefully they just turned down the ex valve's. As far as the blower talk goes, I found out along time ago, 1991, that 400+ cfm's sitting on top of 500+ cu. inches goes along way to leveling the playing field with temperamental,noisey huffers. The best part is the look on their face as you pull away from them. Cubes +Nos is the way to go for a user friendly boat. Leave the blowers on the diesels unless you're racing.
I just swapped out my old A-460 heads for another set I had built 8 yrs ago w/ 2.4 Ti intakes, picked up nearly 20 CFM's at peak lift and shed a shit load of grams off the valve weight. The heads have a reshaped chamber and are 10 cc's less volume, should bump comp to 11.75 vs 10.75. Also switched to a set of T&D 1.8 shaft rockers should be on the dyno in two to three weeks.
Holly Crap $4k in the pump? I've done some re-builds and blue printing with stainless impellers and replaced bowls all at the same time, but I don't recall spending that much in one shot.
Good luck with the Miller.
Regards,
Sleeper CP

[Wet Dream]

76 Miller,
Holly Crap $4k in the pump? I've done some re-builds and blue printing with stainless impellers and replaced bowls all at the same time, but I don't recall spending that much in one shot.
I had my pump blueprinted, flowed, Stainless A, and new nozzles at Don's Pump for $3200.

[lucky]

76 Miller,
From one Ford guy to another I hope your build turns out fine. Hopefully they just turned down the ex valve's. As far as the blower talk goes, I found out along time ago, 1991, that 400+ cfm's sitting on top of 500+ cu. inches goes along way to leveling the playing field with temperamental,noisey huffers. The best part is the look on their face as you pull away from them. Cubes +Nos is the way to go for a user friendly boat. Leave the blowers on the diesels unless you're racing.
I just swapped out my old A-460 heads for another set I had built 8 yrs ago w/ 2.4 Ti intakes, picked up nearly 20 CFM's at peak lift and shed a shit load of grams off the valve weight. The heads have a reshaped chamber and are 10 cc's less volume, should bump comp to 11.75 vs 10.75. Also switched to a set of T&D 1.8 shaft rockers should be on the dyno in two to three weeks.
Holly Crap $4k in the pump? I've done some re-builds and blue printing with stainless impellers and replaced bowls all at the same time, but I don't recall spending that much in one shot.
Good luck with the Miller.
Regards,
Sleeper CP
YOu may pull ahead when your on the button , but when you HAVE to get off it - a huffer will be on your ass like a prostate doctor on cancer !! friend don't let friends put drugs on their boats !!! become an athlete - be a huffer :D

[Sleeper CP]

I had my pump blueprinted, flowed, Stainless A, and new nozzles at Don's Pump for $3200.
I forgot one important thing: Two of my friends; Neil at SD Performance Marine and Dan Crower(Crower Cams)- now on his own @ CrowerPower have kept my brother and me from paying retail for boat and engine parts since 1987. I guess it can ad up real fast when you have to replace everything.
Sleeper CP
_______________________
Going fast is only half the fun....What you make go fast is the other half.

[Sleeper CP]

YOu may pull ahead when your on the button , but when you HAVE to get off it - a huffer will be on your ass like a prostate doctor on cancer !! friend don't let friends put drugs on their boats !!! become an athlete - be a huffer :D
Sometimes that was true, that's why my brother and I built the 565 incher as a two speed engine. It was built to pull 7,200, max power at 6,800. The AA stainless held it back to 5,800 ;hit the 250/300 HP Shot Nos button(enrichment fuel is methanol) the engine pulls to 6,700 and is as happy as a clam at high tide. It took a few years and I think six pistons and at least 8 intake valves to get worked out, but after solving the Nos distribution problem by having the spray bars put into the plenum we could stay on the button for 15 seconds if needed (didn't have to very often) and every spark plug would still have the electrodes attached. The other good thing was the engine idled at 900 rpm's and one carb is real easy to tune.
Sleeper CP
____________________________
Going fast is only half the fun....What you make go fast is the other half.

[vee-driven]

I'll line up with your jet boat any day of the week Patrick !Oh wait I did and it grenaded! Rest in peace floater. Lets try it again with the next one.:) Anything coming out of service center is questionable,first problem is with the high school kid assembly line! Plus, your talking apples and oranges as far as application, 383 in a car or big block in a jet boat, many many different factors(parts used, installed correctly, etc.) How about you finish a project, and we have this discussion with beer in hand at the river, I'll be out there three different times this month. Call me up.
We can line them up if you want to WAYNE, but we all know how that'll end. lol
That boat aka the floater was nothing i had anything to do with, i had never worked on it or even been in it. As far as the heads, you get what you pay for and i was just trying to help a homie out, i was thinking of putting those on keiths boat but i don't wanna have to replace another motor but thats fine i just hope you change out those china valves, and as far my projects, i have four i am workin on now and as far as i know you only have one. Oh yea and enlighten me on this, 383 in a car or big block in a jet boat, many many different factors(parts used, installed correctly, etc.) and your welcome to try out any of my parts to further your quest for speed. P.S. i am not trying to have a pissing match with you either.

[vee-driven]

Why don't you come by and get the open spacer and the nos system to try out on one of your three trips to the river this month so we can see what you get outta that.

[pw_Tony]

I forgot one important thing: Two of my friends; Neil at SD Performance Marine and Dan Crower(Crower Cams)- now on his own @ CrowerPower have kept my brother and me from paying retail for boat and engine parts since 1987. I guess it can ad up real fast when you have to replace everything.
Sleeper CP
_______________________
Going fast is only half the fun....What you make go fast is the other half.
Is Dan still all into the bike and quad stuff? I used to work with Jeff Mummert and I know they went to engine masters challenge together and did pretty good...3rd place in the nation if I'm not mistaken

[76miller]

Hey Pat, not sure where to start but....first off my heads dont have crappy china valves in them, i put good parts in the there. The p.o.s. motor that was in the boat you sold had way bigger problems than just the heads, we both know that. Unless, that 90% water to 10% oil ratio you had in the pan is some race trick. There was a blue cloud of smoke following that boat everytime i say it running ! As far as the differences of a small block in a car as to a big block in a JET BOAT are huge ! Lets start with the tolerances in the bottom end, then completely different cams, they don't rev out to 7500rpm, and they don't SHIFT ! I can continue enlightening you if you'd like. Any motor built for a car or v-drive has no business in a jet boat that is gonna run worth a shit or last. I know you build motors, but your a "car guy". I'm not trying to have a pissing match with you either but you called me out when you made the remark that my parts where shit, when they run every other weekend all season long, while yours are either for sale, or sitting. P.S. 76mph is a thing of the past.

[Sleeper CP]

Is Dan still all into the bike and quad stuff? I used to work with Jeff Mummert and I know they went to engine masters challenge together and did pretty good...3rd place in the nation if I'm not mistaken
Yes, Dan is doing tons of bike stuff at CrowerPower.com He does cams and engine kits. He has some wicked profiles for the 4-stroke 250's and 450's that the factory bikes can' keep up with. Geoff has started a Quad ATV business called MMAD(Mummert Machine and Design) and his is building some kick as quads.
In '04 Dan and Geoff helped me build my 650 hp 409 inch smblk ford for the the Engine Master's competition. Dan and I took it to New York to compete and we were there when Jon Kaase's 409 smblk ford belched out 704 hp at 6400 rpm's on 91 octane.
Dan still does v-8 and import stuff if he likes the project. Today he sent me my new set of push rods for my 565 it has one of his roller cams in it. Geoff will be with me in the dyno room in a couple of weeks to help me wrench on it. 2 intakes, 2 carbs & 2 sets of headers . I'll be talking to Geoff this weekend.
Sleeper CP
____________
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other half.

[pw_Tony]

What do yah know you spelt Geoff's name right. Lol. I actually worked for Geoff for bout 10 months over at MMAD. Mostly did the V8 stuff though, lots of cylinders heads. Unfortunately my situation made me move to arizona, shame though Geoff and his dad John was teaching me alot of stuff... got a long way too go.

[Sleeper CP]

Pw383426,
If you worked with Geoff for just 10 months you may have already learned more than most engine guys know after 10 years. I have never been around a guy that eat's, sleep's and thinks about HP as much as that kid does. If Geoff can impress Bruce Crower with what he know's .. well he is good enough for me. That's why I'm going to have him with me when I dyno in a few weeks.
I just helped him buy a swirl and tumble meter for his flow bench. He'll be learning more about head flow for both V-8's and bike stuff with it.
Don't know if you know he got married a few months back.
Lastly, do you have to be an IT guy to manipulate the control panel on this board ? ie change, signature line and avatars. Any help would be appreciated.
Sleeper CP
_____________
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other half

[pw_Tony]

Pw383426,
If you worked with Geoff for just 10 months you may have already learned more than most engine guys know after 10 years. I have never been around a guy that eat's, sleep's and thinks about HP as much as that kid does. If Geoff can impress Bruce Crower with what he know's .. well he is good enough for me. That's why I'm going to have him with me when I dyno in a few weeks.
I just helped him buy a swirl and tumble meter for his flow bench. He'll be learning more about head flow for both V-8's and bike stuff with it.
Don't know if you know he got married a few months back.
Lastly, do you have to be an IT guy to manipulate the control panel on this board ? ie change, signature line and avatars. Any help would be appreciated.
Sleeper CP
_____________
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other half
Yah I did try and learn as much as I can. People thought I was weird being 18 years old building 500hp motors lol. But anyway when I first signed up here for about a month or so I couldn't make a signiture or an avatar, you probably just have to wait.

[vee-driven]

Hey Wayne, you have a clean little boat there and i do apologize for stating the pro comp heads were junk, but for those heads to come apart in two low RPM motors with small hydrolic cams, that just aint right and all i was trying trying to advise you was to be carefull with them and maybe put some good valves in them so you dont have to go through what iam doing, thats it. You talk about the floater like its gonna affect me, it wasnt my boat and i never had a hand in it, i am only helping keith get it going, as far as i care he could give that damn thing back to my dad in pieces, i dont care, but he likes that boat and wants to keep it. You say i'm a car guy you are right but i have been boating since i was a kid, and my first boat was a southwind tunnel dragster with a berkely and a 460 ford, then a few flats, the GN and now my rayson, so i am a v-drive guy too. Your enlightenment didnt tell me anything i dont already know, any motor thats gonna run good in a boat has to be nice and tight on the bottom end and a little looser in the rings, and of course a cam is only gonna go as far in the rpm range as it is designed for. As far as the water in the oil you didn't notice the split in the cylinder that either caused the valve to drop by hydroing the cylinder, or maybe the valve dropped and split the cylinder, who knows who cares but iam making it right. ill be out there to but i would much rather be there with the 572 with the 14-71 blower, then with the 8-71 blown 468. PS. congrats on going to have a baby.