Why I don't miss building motors sometimes.

[wsuwrhr]

Well....I am still fighting putting the iron motor together.
Now I only have .002 across the rod caps and .0015 up and down.
I measured the rod bore at 2.4995 at 45 deg and 2.500 up and down.
The crank is dead nuts standard/standard at 2.3750.
The bearing shells measure .0615-.0624.
If the crank and rods are standard, I guess that means the bearings are overcoated. WTF? What else could be wrong?
Will I ever get to boat again?
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Clevite 77 bearings, stock rods, stock crank.
Got to be the bearings right?

[cyclone]

you may have to mix and match bearing sets to get the clearance you are looking for.
like different top and bottom halves with different clearances. make sense?

[wsuwrhr]

you may have to mix and match bearing sets to get the clearance you are looking for.
like different top and bottom halves with different clearances. make sense?
Crystal clear,
Unfortunately the bearings are all the same.

[BrendellaJet]

they come in different sizes...

[wsuwrhr]

Good luck with a phone contact for Dana, Clevite, Mahle or anyone else who may have bought the company.
I think I am just going to go sell all my shit and stick with crotch rockets. So much less of a pain in the ass.

[cstraub]

Add an X to the end of the part number of the mains or rods for an extra .001" of clearance.

[wsuwrhr]

Add an X to the end of the part number of the mains or rods for an extra .001" of clearance.
I was able to get a tech number for Clevite from Summit.
I did find out about the X number, but that will only give me .0014 clearance.
Subract the bearing shells from the rod diameter, subtract the crank, the number left is pretty small.
Am I being too smart for my own good? The dork from Summit told me to put it together with Plastiguage and call it good. "It is more accurate that way."
I'm thinking at the point I need to have the rods resized.
Clevite tech just called.....I'll be back.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

I am just going to buy the x part number and see where that gets me.
Break
Out
Another
Thousand
right?
Anyone need a set of standard HP bearings for a 440?
Brian

[BDMar]

I was able to get a tech number for Clevite from Summit.
I did find out about the X number, but that will only give me .0014 clearance.
Subract the bearing shells from the rod diameter, subtract the crank, the number left is pretty small.
Am I being too smart for my own good? The dork from Summit told me to put it together with Plastiguage and call it good. "It is more accurate that way."
I'm thinking at the point I need to have the rods resized.
Clevite tech just called.....I'll be back.
Brian
If you are getting your measurement by "doing the math", install the bearings, torque the bolts, and use a mic and dial bore gauge to find out the true clearance. It will be different than measureing shell thickness, etc.....

[wsuwrhr]

If you are getting your measurement by "doing the math", install the bearings, torque the bolts, and use a mic and dial bore gauge to find out the true clearance. It will be different than measureing shell thickness, etc.....
Well that is how it started out.
I already did that.
.0005 up and down. Not near enough.
I know it CAN be different, but it can never be more clearance, right? Doing the math is the maximum the clearance can ever be.
I have never had this problem in the past so I am trying to sort it out before I kick a rod out. Not good.
Brian

[lucky]

hey What torque wrench are you using ?- get a bigger bar :D

[wsuwrhr]

hey What torque wrench are you using ?- get a bigger bar :D
Haha, looks like if I use that method I don't need to tighten them as much.
I bought a nice Snap-On torque wrench a couple months ago.
Brian

[steelcomp]

Federal Mogul competition brg P/N 8-7135CH-1 (+.001)
If the crank, bearings, and rods are standard, that's a pretty typical OEM clearance (.0015-.0002) You might want the rods honed to the max of the tolerance, maybe pick up a few tenths. The fed mogul brgs usually run about .0005 big, so the +.001 shoud get you another thou an-a-haf.

[gn7]

Federal Mogul competition brg P/N 8-7135CH-1 (+.001)
If the crank, bearings, and rods are standard, that's a pretty typical OEM clearance (.0015-.0002)
didn't you mean (.0015-.002) and yeah, I have seen numbers like that more than once and they worked fine, if your not spinin a ton, can't recommend 50 wieght oil though

[steelcomp]

didn't you mean (.0015-.002) and yeah, I have seen numbers like that more than once and they worked fine, if your not spinin a ton, can't recommend 50 wieght oil thoughYeah, of course I meant .002. I'd never recommend 50 wt anyway.

[wsuwrhr]

I bought the +.001 bearings. We will see where that gets me I guess.
Brian

[TIMINATOR]

All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR

[YeLLowBoaT]

I've always measured all of the barring surfaces(in place and torqued), then had the crank ground to give the proper clearance for those numbers, not what it says in the book... but I'm not a engine builder...

[wsuwrhr]

Did you even read my post?
Just curious.
Not to be a smart ass...but reading your post seems like you replied in the wrong thread.
All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR

[GofastRacer]

Hey Brian, I may have missed this but did you get the "coated" bearings???...:confused:

[wsuwrhr]

Hey Brian, I may have missed this but did you get the "coated" bearings???...:confused:
No sir.
I checked with Clevite, I asked about the bearings I had being posibbly mispackaged or overplated bearings. The tech said the bearings would have a blue tint had they been coated.
The bearings measure exactly what Clevite says they should.
My crank is on the high side. Problem is it is standard/standard and my crank guy talked me out of turning it down at all because it was so nice.
I had it coolcased and polished and called it good.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

I re-read your post and I just get irritated.
I am guessing you scanned through my post or didn't even read it at all.
Thanks for posting anyway.
All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR

[Cs19]

I re-read your post and I just get irritated.
I am guessing you scanned through my post or didn't even read it at all.
Thanks for posting anyway.
That is a typical Timinator post.. Irritated me too.

[wsuwrhr]

That is a typical Timinator post.. Irritated me too.
Ok, so you are saying I shouldn't worry about it much?
It gets kinda personal when you tell a machinist he needs to have someone qualifed measure his shiz.
:2purples: :2purples: :2purples:
Brian

[Jetaholic]

It gets kinda personal when you tell a machinist he needs to have someone qualifed measure his shiz.
:2purples: :2purples: :2purples:
Brian
I think I'm qualified enough to measure my own "shiz" :D

[steelcomp]

All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR
All these experts!!! LOL...so where do you fit in? I'd lke to see you polish a crank to remove material. That's a laugh, and if that's "normal activity" in your "expert" opinion, I'm sorry for the guys you do work for. My guess is a machinist like Brian knows more about tight tolerance measurements than you do. Engines have a few areas where there are considerably tight tolerances, but for the most part, it's +/- a fat brick, from a machinist's standpoint. It's been my experience that most engine builders (or I should say engine assemblers) really don't know much about "machining", and really only know enough to male themselves dangereous. The tolerances in bore dia's for rods and mains are there to allow for 1) errors, and 2) adjustments. The engineers and designers came up with those numbers so that even at the low side, the dia. will still provide the proper amount of interfearance, weather it be for bearing crush, press, or what have you. There's nothing wrong with shooting for the low side of a tolerance to get another few tenths, if that's what you need, and there's no benefit in "enhancing" the crush. Also, for quite some time, now, almost all babbitt bearings are thinner at the parting line, not just performance bearings. This was done to allow for the expansion of the end of the bearing becauase of the crush, not a mismatch possibility.
Next time you decide you're going to give a lecture, at least know WTF you're talking about.
So typical.

[rrrr]

My guess is a machinist like Brian knows more about tight tolerance measurements than you do. Engines have a few areas where there are considerably tight tolerances, but for the most part, it's +/- a fat brick, from a machinist's standpoint.
LOL!! :D :D

[gn7]

I was able to get a tech number for Clevite from Summit.
I did find out about the X number, but that will only give me .0014 clearance.
this does't really make alot of sense to me, the X bearings are .001 more clearence, which would give you .0025-.003. Maybe I'am wrong.

[wsuwrhr]

this does't really make alot of sense to me, the X bearings are .001 more clearence, which would give you .0025-.003. Maybe I'am wrong.
Thats the problem, I am thinking I will end up at .0014
I don't know what I am going to do.
Brian

[Fiat48]

You got .0015 vertical now with a standard bearing. A 1X bearing should give you .001 additional...for a total of .0025. Or very close.

[FlatRat]

Clevite 77 bearings, stock rods, stock crank.
Got to be the bearings right?
Gotta what them Clevites...I needed some .10-10. and they sent me some .10.20 and some .10-.10.Was kinda wonderin' why the crank was tight...Hello

[BIGCHRIS]

Gotta what them Clevites...I needed some .10-10. and they sent me some .10.20 and some .10-.10.Was kinda wonderin' why the crank was tight...Hello
Had the same thing happen this year,some .010 and some .020 in the same package

[TIMINATOR]

I thought the post said somthing about up and down clearance and parting line clearance. I won't bother quoting. Read your own post! You all can read. I don't believe that factory engine clearances (what the "book" says) are correct or desireable for a boat or performance engine either. I don't tell my customers they have to "break in a motor" (like the factory) because I was too lazy to set the clearances correctly. I won't even justify the comment that you can't polish a crank for clearance, its done all the time at engine builders. If WSU.... is a better machinist than us, why ask us? He DID ya know. TIMINATOR

[wsuwrhr]

machinist
Main Entry: ma·chin·ist
Pronunciation: \ma-shē-nist\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1706
1 a: a worker who fabricates, assembles, or repairs machinery b: a craftsman skilled in the use of machine tools c: one who operates a machine
2archaic : a person in charge of the mechanical aspects of a theatrical production
3: a warrant officer who supervises machinery and engine operation
I don't see a thing about knowing the ins and outs of bearing clearance problems.
Example: I did not know about the "X" bearing. News to me. Does that make me an engine building idiot? Maybe, maybe not.
This will be about the tenth engine I have put together and honestly this has been full of problems.
BTW...I do know when to ask for help rather than act like I know-it-all. Everyone can gain knowledge from someone else.
Brian
I thought the post said somthing about up and down clearance and parting line clearance. I won't bother quoting. Read your own post! You all can read. I don't believe that factory engine clearances (what the "book" says) are correct or desireable for a boat or performance engine either. I don't tell my customers they have to "break in a motor" (like the factory) because I was too lazy to set the clearances correctly. I won't even justify the comment that you can't polish a crank for clearance, its done all the time at engine builders. If WSU.... is a better machinist than us, why ask us? He DID ya know. TIMINATOR

[TIMINATOR]

It is not an act. It is my profession, (Mr.Know-it-all, that is). At no time did I call you an idiot. Doing only 40-50 performance engines per year and owning about a half a mil+ of equipment does not qualify me to offer aid. I won't. Good luck. TIMINATOR

[wsuwrhr]

Your type of aid was abrasive and downright insulting.
I can't imagine asking you for help ever again. You may look into a different approach in the future.
I recieved a couple PM's informing me of your style of "help".
Honestly I would rather kick a rod out than call on you for a thing.
Thanks.
Brian
It is not an act. It is my profession, (Mr.Know-it-all, that is). At no time did I call you an idiot. Doing only 40-50 performance engines per year and owning about a half a mil+ of equipment does not qualify me to offer aid. I won't. Good luck. TIMINATOR

[GofastRacer]

Had the same thing happen this year,some .010 and some .020 in the same package
Wow, things must have changed at Clevite ain't never had that happen, been using them for 30yrs!..:confused:

[Blown 472]

All these experts!!! LOL...so where do you fit in? I'd lke to see you polish a crank to remove material. That's a laugh, and if that's "normal activity" in your "expert" opinion, I'm sorry for the guys you do work for. My guess is a machinist like Brian knows more about tight tolerance measurements than you do. Engines have a few areas where there are considerably tight tolerances, but for the most part, it's +/- a fat brick, from a machinist's standpoint. It's been my experience that most engine builders (or I should say engine assemblers) really don't know much about "machining", and really only know enough to male themselves dangereous. The tolerances in bore dia's for rods and mains are there to allow for 1) errors, and 2) adjustments. The engineers and designers came up with those numbers so that even at the low side, the dia. will still provide the proper amount of interfearance, weather it be for bearing crush, press, or what have you. There's nothing wrong with shooting for the low side of a tolerance to get another few tenths, if that's what you need, and there's no benefit in "enhancing" the crush. Also, for quite some time, now, almost all babbitt bearings are thinner at the parting line, not just performance bearings. This was done to allow for the expansion of the end of the bearing becauase of the crush, not a mismatch possibility.
Next time you decide you're going to give a lecture, at least know WTF you're talking about.
So typical.
If you read Smokie Yunicks book he says a tigher crush will transfer more heat away from the bearing and into the block or rod. Also the bearings are wider at the parting line to form the wedge of oil so there is no contact of metal on metal. Me thinks ol smokie might know a wee bit more then you.

[steelcomp]

If you read Smokie Yunicks book he says a tigher crush will transfer more heat away from the bearing and into the block or rod. Also the bearings are wider at the parting line to form the wedge of oil so there is no contact of metal on metal. Me thinks ol smokie might know a wee bit more then you.Me thinks you don't know WTF you're talking about, and oughta go back to wasting your time in Political Crap, where it really dosen't matter that you don't know WTF you're talking about. Aside from quoting Smokey, you think you want to go one-on-one with me on engine building?
Step off, junior. an get the f ock out.

[Blown 472]

Me thinks you don't know WTF you're talking about, and oughta go back to wasting your time in Political Crap, where it really dosen't matter that you don't know WTF you're talking about. Aside from quoting Smokey, you think you want to go one-on-one with me on engine building?
Step off, junior. an get the f ock out.
HO really? well lets start with all the cars you have had at indy, how many engines have you had there super engine builder.
Here you can fill in the numbers for the winning engines you have built.
SS/AA
PRO STOCK
TAD
TAF
FC
TF
COMP
STOCK
INDY
NASCAR

[Moneypitt]

I let the popcorn go too long in the microwave and the house smells like burnt popcorn...........And it was the last bag......Damm............MP

[Cs19]

I bet Tims phone rings off the hook after potential customers read his posts :rolleyes:

[wsuwrhr]

I bet Tims phone rings off the hook after potential customers read his posts :rolleyes:
Kinda what I was infering.
One thing you can say about the guy is he sure as shit doesn't SPAM his services on the boards.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Blown, you have my interest once again. Here I was thinking you were a hobby type motor guy like myself.
I am reading your post thinking you may have some more shit out there than I thought. Post up your records...I am interested.
Anything with the Dodges you built?
Brian
I am frothing at the mouth, please tell me you campaigned SS/AA Hemi Dart.
HO really? well lets start with all the cars you have had at indy, how many engines have you had there super engine builder.
Here you can fill in the numbers for the winning engines you have built.
SS/AA
PRO STOCK
TAD
TAF
FC
TF
COMP
STOCK
INDY
NASCAR

[Infomaniac]

I'm glad my 2.5 mil $$ machine shop qualifies me as an expert. LOL
Cranks rarely measure exactly the stock journal diameter. They are generally .001 or so smaller than the advertised size. If yours measures exactly to size then that would be the problem so to speak.
You can mix H halves and HX halves to get the required clearance. But if you have .0015 now just get a HX set and check it.
You should have Sunnen stuff to set dial bore gages up with. Measure the crank again with a light touch torque the mains and rods up with the bearings in and measure it with the dial bore gage perpndicular to the parting lines.
The bore size in the block and rods would have to be WAYYY off to affect the clearance very much. It should affect the crush more than anything. But the rod bore should not vary between 90 degrees and 45 degrees. They will vary at the parting lines a bit depending on the rod and if resizing etc.
But that is just my humble opinon. Not necessaiiy advice.

[steelcomp]

HO really? well lets start with all the cars you have had at indy, how many engines have you had there super engine builder.
Here you can fill in the numbers for the winning engines you have built.
SS/AA 0
PRO STOCK 4
TAD several
TAF 2
FC don't remember...a couple I think
TF 2
COMP 0
STOCK 0
INDY 0
NASCAR 7 Maybe not al winning engines, but they were there.
Also my little 820hp 467, a 1000hp Stg II Buic v6 that holds a bunch of records at Bonneville, an all aluminum 427FE motor for one of our Cobras, and about 50 other various performance street and boat engines.
Now, why don't you fill in the same list.
Obviously without comparing me to someone else, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

[Blown 472]

Maybe not al winning engines, but they were there.
Also my little 820hp 467, a 1000hp Stg II Buic v6 that holds a bunch of records at Bonneville, an all aluminum 427FE motor for one of our Cobras, and about 50 other various performance street and boat engines.
Now, why don't you fill in the same list.
Obviously without comparing me to someone else, you haven't got a leg to stand on.
Whos cars did you have the engines in? and I am not the one proclaiming to be the greatest engine builder that would be you remember.
4 pro stocks huh, who??
7 nascar motors? whos car??
And please correct me if I am wrong but the reason the rod bearings are made that way is for the dynamic wedge, no??

[Blown 472]

Blown, you have my interest once again. Here I was thinking you were a hobby type motor guy like myself.
I am reading your post thinking you may have some more shit out there than I thought. Post up your records...I am interested.
Anything with the Dodges you built?
Brian
I am frothing at the mouth, please tell me you campaigned SS/AA Hemi Dart.
Not yet.

[TIMINATOR]

I picked up an engine build over this thread. He had similar problems. From Californey too, hmm. Due to the number of P.M.s and calls about those that would demean info from Smokey (if living),Warren Johnson, and Grumpy Jenkins to name some names that were mentioned, I'll let you guys go at it. Some say there are peeps that you CAN'T help. I agree. Post all you like, I'm somewhere else. TIMINATOR

[Cs19]

You should have Sunnen stuff to set dial bore gages up with. Measure the crank again with a light touch torque the mains and rods up with the bearings in and measure it with the dial bore gage perpndicular to the parting lines.
YOu dont want to torque the main caps on to full torque when checking the ID of the bearing?

[wsuwrhr]

Not yet.
AWWW....bummer.
There is nothing prettier than a Hemi Dart.
Come on Blown, ease off a little on Steel.....we are all friends here. Beat up on the other guy

[wsuwrhr]

Wadntmedude.
I picked up an engine build over this thread. He had similar problems. From Californey too, hmm.

[Infomaniac]

YOu dont want to torque the main caps on to full torque when checking the ID of the bearing?
Light touch was measuring the crank with a mic.
Since he measured it at nominal size I suggested a lighter touch.

[wsuwrhr]

So using the mic as a C-clamp is no good, Info?
Light touch was measuring the crank with a mic.
Since he measured it at nominal size I suggested a lighter touch.

[rrrr]

So using the mic as a C-clamp is no good Info?
Just hit the curve of the mic with your open palm, it'll pop right over the journal. ;)

[wsuwrhr]

Just hit the curve of the mic with your open palm, it'll pop right over the journal. ;)
Crap I was using a a pair of vise grips and a dead blow hammer this whole time, so the trick is my palm?
Course the problem is with all this is, if I tighten the mic on the crank, making the journal effectively smaller, it would give me MORE clearance, so maybe that is the problem, if I crank the mic down hard enough I can come up with whatever clearance I need. Super.
BTW. The mains are fine, .0032-.0035. with .003 thrust. I am good there.
I am waiting for the "X" bearings to get here. I bought a Sunnen CR-2500 mandrel to kiss the ID of the rods, as soon as I find the service spec for the big end. I could probably hone .0002 and still be good on the crush but I won't know until I get the specs for the rods.
I am OK with all this, it is just frustrating at times.
Brian

[Infomaniac]

Course the problem is with all this is, if I tighten the mic on the crank, making the journal effectively smaller, it would give me MORE clearance, so maybe that is the problem, if I crank the mic down hard enough I can come up with whatever clearance I need. Super.
DUH !! LOL
I am waiting for the "X" bearings to get here. I bought a Sunnen CR-2500 mandrel to kiss the ID of the rods, as soon as I find the service spec for the big end. I could probably hone .0002 and still be good on the crush but I won't know until I get the specs for the rods.
What is the rod?? I have all the specs in the world.

[wsuwrhr]

Come on Info. I'm the Mopar guy, you've got to know it is going to be a Mopar rod.
Stock steel 440 non sixpac rod, nominal 2.5 dia.
I need the correct service limit for the big end.
Do you need any other information?
DUH !! LOL
I am waiting for the "X" bearings to get here. I bought a Sunnen CR-2500 mandrel to kiss the ID of the rods,
What is the rod?? I have all the specs in the world.

[Infomaniac]

Come on Info. I'm the Mopar guy, you've got to know it is going to be a Mopar rod.
Stock steel 440 non sixpac rod, nominal 2.5 dia.
I need the correct service limit for the big end.
Do you need any other information?
Nope I've insulted your machinist intelligence enough today. Give me a sec.

[Infomaniac]

2.500/2.5005 same as 426

[wsuwrhr]

2.500/2.5005 same as 426
Cool, I figured it was the same as a wedge/hemi 426. I thought maybe the 6 pack might have a slighter larger ID.
What luck I have, crank at the upper limit, bearings at the upper limit and rods at the lower limit. No clearance.
So like my original plan....hone out .0002 on the big end, that will put me in the middle of the crush tolerance, with the X bearing +.001 I should be right at .0024-.0026
Good for a steel rod boat engine?
Brian

[Infomaniac]

Cool, I figured it was the same as a wedge/hemi 426. I thought maybe the 6 pack might have a slighter larger ID.
What luck I have, crank at the upper limit, bearings at the upper limit and rods at the lower limit. No clearance.
So like my original plan....hone out .0002 on the big end, that will put me in the middle of the crush tolerance, with the X bearing +.001 I should be right at .0024-.0026
Good for a steel rod boat engine?
Brian
Sounds good to me.
I believe the term used to describe your luck is "An Accumulation of Tolerances" Sometimes good and sometimes bad.

[wsuwrhr]

Sounds good to me.
I believe the term used to describe your luck is "An Accumulation of Tolerances" Sometimes good and sometimes bad.
yes sir.
refered to on the dirty floor as "stacking up of tolerances"

[steelcomp]

Whos cars did you have the engines in? and I am not the one proclaiming to be the greatest engine builder that would be you remember.
4 pro stocks huh, who??
7 nascar motors? whos car??
And please correct me if I am wrong but the reason the rod bearings are made that way is for the dynamic wedge, no??Aw, c'mon, blown. Don't be such a pissant. Crawl out of your little hovel once in a while, and get a breath of fresh air. I've never even claimed to be a good engine builder, let alone a great one, but you seem to have a hot poker up your ass about it for some reason.
Pro Stocks...Dave Belli, and Mark Powuk. This is when I was at Dart working for Rich Maskins. They weren't my motors, but I had enough of a hand in just about every aspect of them to take my share of credit. No more, no less.
Nascar (Winston Cup)
Back in the late 80's I was with a team (LMS) in Virginia, Bowen/Webster Raing. Mostly short track, a few races at Richmond, etc. Again. not technically "my" motors, but the same goes here. While at Alan Johnsons we worked on quite a few circle track motors which I had a hand in about every aspect. Top Alcohol FC and Dragster, the same. I did the entire mock-up and clearance check on several engines. That's all but final assy.
There's a lot more that I don't feel I need to explain here on your account.
AFA the rod bearings, if you say so.

[wsuwrhr]

AFA the rod bearings, if you say so.
???

[Blown 472]

Aw, c'mon, blown. Don't be such a pissant. Crawl out of your little hovel once in a while, and get a breath of fresh air. I've never even claimed to be a good engine builder, let alone a great one, but you seem to have a hot poker up your ass about it for some reason.
Pro Stocks...Dave Belli, and Mark Powuk. This is when I was at Dart working for Rich Maskins. They weren't my motors, but I had enough of a hand in just about every aspect of them to take my share of credit. No more, no less.
Nascar (Winston Cup)
Back in the late 80's I was with a team (LMS) in Virginia, Bowen/Webster Raing. Mostly short track, a few races at Richmond, etc. Again. not technically "my" motors, but the same goes here. While at Alan Johnsons we worked on quite a few circle track motors which I had a hand in about every aspect. Top Alcohol FC and Dragster, the same. I did the entire mock-up and clearance check on several engines. That's all but final assy.
There's a lot more that I don't feel I need to explain here on your account.
AFA the rod bearings, if you say so.
Well golf clap for you.
afa?

[steelcomp]

Well golf clap for you.
afa? Hey, you asked. Last thing I need is to prove anything. I'm still waiting for your list of accomplishments, other than wasting space and oxygen, and creating unnecesssary Co2 emissions.
AFA... As far as...

[Blown 472]

Hey, you asked. Last thing I need is to prove anything. I'm still waiting for your list of accomplishments, other than wasting space and oxygen, and creating unnecesssary Co2 emissions.
AFA... As far as...
You are the one that said I should Step off, junior. an get the f ock out.
So you dont know about the wedge? strange a top guru like you should know that.

[steelcomp]

I picked up an engine build over this thread. He had similar problems. From Californey too, hmm. Due to the number of P.M.s and calls about those that would demean info from Smokey (if living),Warren Johnson, and Grumpy Jenkins to name some names that were mentioned, I'll let you guys go at it. Some say there are peeps that you CAN'T help. I agree. Post all you like, I'm somewhere else. TIMINATORLOL...you're somewhere else, all right. Another freekin planet!! :)

[steelcomp]

You are the one that said I should Step off, junior. an get the f ock out.
So you dont know about the wedge? strange a top guru like you should know that.There you go again. Top guru? Where do you get this shit?
First mention here about a wedge. There's lots of wedges.

[Blown 472]

There you go again. Top guru? Where do you get this shit?
First mention here about a wedge. There's lots of wedges.
I mentioned it and you told me to **** off, so lets hear it oh great one.

[steelcomp]

I mentioned it and you told me to **** off, so lets hear it oh great one.If you're talking about the wedge of oil you say Smokie talked about, well, I've never heard of that one. The load surfaces are perpendicualr to the parting lines, so from what I know, that's where the critical dimension is. Like I said before, I learned that the bearings are thinner at the edges because a long time ago there were problems spinning bearings, and someone figured out that with the crush, the ends of the bearings would expand, and were wider than the centers, taking up too much clearance, and wiping the oil off the journal. the solution was to make them thinner. At high rpm's the parting lines can actually cause some turbulance, and cause somewhat of a dam of oil, and the extra clearance helps elleviate that, as well. So I've been told. The fact that more crush will transfer more heat is speculative. In theory, probably correct, but hard to prove in application. Does a difference of .0002-.0005 really cost enough heat transfer to worry about? If it was an absolute, there would be no tolerances.
I'm still waiting on your list of worthwhile accomplishments, Blown. No more questions, no more comments. just post 'em up, or shut up. (We all know that's an impossibility)

[steve d]

Brian.........Great thread!!.........Thank God I wasn't stuck on "Bench Racers"
Would've missed the whole thing:)
Now for the rest of the story......

[wsuwrhr]

Brian.........Great thread!!.........Thank God I wasn't stuck on "Bench Racers"
Would've missed the whole thing:)
Now for the rest of the story......
Great?
Which part?

[MACHINEHEAD]

I had thought that the extra clearence at the parting line was there to keep the bearing from grabing the crank. A stock type rod from many of the manufactures would elongate or egg shape at higher loads and the parting line would get closer to the crank. So a bearing with thinner parting lines began to show up in performance applications. I guess this is why a "P" bearing, with its thinner parting line, should be used in stock rod apps. An "H" bearing is rounder and is used mostly in aftermarket rods which do not elongate as bad as stockers. Thats why it is not advisable to use a "H" bearing in a stock rod, it is rounder, and could grab the crank at higher loads. A hydrodynamic wedge occures naturally becase the rod is always pushing the crank, on the power stroke when most critical, creating slightly more clearence on the leading edge of the journal. Same goes for the mains, with less clearence at the cap half, the crank is always trying to go straight through the bottom of the pan. SPAM ATTACK. One of my engines is on the cover of this months ENGINE MASTERS magazine, followed by a 10 page spread!

[MACHINEHEAD]

I had thought that the extra clearence at the parting line was there to keep the bearing from grabing the crank. A stock type rod from many of the manufactures would elongate or egg shape at higher loads and the parting line would get closer to the crank. So a bearing with thinner parting lines began to show up in performance applications. I guess this is why a "P" bearing, with its thinner parting line, should be used in stock rod apps. An "H" bearing is rounder and is used mostly in aftermarket rods which do not elongate as bad as stockers. Thats why it is not advisable to use a "H" bearing in a stock rod, it is rounder, and could grab the crank at higher loads. A hydrodynamic wedge occures naturally becase the rod is always pushing the crank, on the power stroke when most critical, creating slightly more clearence on the leading edge of the journal. Same goes for the mains, with less clearence at the cap half, the crank is always trying to go straight through the bottom of the pan. SPAM ATTACK. One of my engines is on the cover of this months ENGINE MASTERS magazine, followed by a 10 page spread!

[MACHINEHEAD]

Oh yeah run the X's

[Blown 472]

If you're talking about the wedge of oil you say Smokie talked about, well, I've never heard of that one. The load surfaces are perpendicualr to the parting lines, so from what I know, that's where the critical dimension is. Like I said before, I learned that the bearings are thinner at the edges because a long time ago there were problems spinning bearings, and someone figured out that with the crush, the ends of the bearings would expand, and were wider than the centers, taking up too much clearance, and wiping the oil off the journal. the solution was to make them thinner. At high rpm's the parting lines can actually cause some turbulance, and cause somewhat of a dam of oil, and the extra clearance helps elleviate that, as well. So I've been told. The fact that more crush will transfer more heat is speculative. In theory, probably correct, but hard to prove in application. Does a difference of .0002-.0005 really cost enough heat transfer to worry about? If it was an absolute, there would be no tolerances.
I'm still waiting on your list of worthwhile accomplishments, Blown. No more questions, no more comments. just post 'em up, or shut up. (We all know that's an impossibility)
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1888625

[Blown 472]

http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/index.htm

[Blown 472]

And I wasn't the one that said "you dont want to go one on one with me about engine building" dick shine.

[wsuwrhr]

And I wasn't the one that said "you dont want to go one on one with me about engine building" dick shine.
Nothing wrong with a shiny dick....

[gn7]

Nothing wrong with a shiny dick....
yeah but maintaining it is a bitch. .........4 pages, and 82 replys because your frickin bearings are little snug. your know how to stir up the shit. My blower belt is a little tight, think I should go to smaller pulleys or machine down my manifold.

[steelcomp]

And I wasn't the one that said "you dont want to go one on one with me about engine building" dick shine.You wouldn't exist if you didn't have someone elses info to cut and paste, just like in Political Rhetoric. You are the consumate fool, always challanging someone elses knowledge, when you have zero of your own. Like I said before, you haven't got one example of anythingn worthwhile you've accomplished, except to ride on the work and research of others, and act like you know something. "dick shine" is about the most intellignet, original thing you've said here. I understand perfectly well the hydrodynamic properties of a flat bearing. You quoted Smokie as saying, Also the bearings are wider at the parting line to form the wedge of oil so there is no contact of metal on metal. Me thinks ol smokie might know a wee bit more then you. trying to be a smart ass. Fact is the "wedge" has nothing to do with the width at the parting line, and you completely misquoted Smokie. The wedge of oil works all the way around the journal, and works in relation to where the oil passage is on the crank, which is timed as to apply full pressure at the point of highest loading. (Again, that's the way I understand it...could be wrong) Read what Machinehead said, as he's right as well, and was able to put into better terms than I was. I think, (if I'm not mistaken) that most all flat bearings (stock included) are tapered at the parting line to allow for expansion of the bearing under crush, and that it was later that they learned that even a more gradual taper allowed for cap deflection (elongation), and came up with "performance" bearings. The heavier loads of performance apps. would actually try and pull the sides of the bearing inward, just like if you set the bearing standing upright (like a U) on a steel table, and hit it in the center with a ball pein hammer. That's how it was explained to me.
Still waiting on your accomplishments Blown.

[steelcomp]

yeah but maintaining it is a bitch. .........4 pages, and 82 replys because your frickin bearings are little snug. your know how to stir up the shit. My blower belt is a little tight, think I should go to smaller pulleys or machine down my manifold.LOL...wax on, wax off :D...You'll have to take your blower problems up in Blower Motors. I hear BLOWN is an expert on blowing. Or is it sucking? Maybe she can help explain everything you need to know. I mean, after all, all it takes to be an expert is a cut and paste.

[steelcomp]

Your mean, well today is T&T at CFW. You decide to make the trip and defend that title???Too much goin on...I'm not even going to be able to make Ming. Besides, it sounds like there isn't enough room at CFW for a canoe, let alone another boat. I'll be back up there this summer. I'm sure there'll be plenty of good weekends left, although I really wanted to make Father's day. Oh well.

[wsuwrhr]

yeah but maintaining it is a bitch. .........4 pages, and 82 replys because your frickin bearings are little snug. your know how to stir up the shit. My blower belt is a little tight, think I should go to smaller pulleys or machine down my manifold.
So you are calling this pissing contest MY fault?
You can't be serious

[Blown 472]

So you are calling this pissing contest MY fault?
You can't be serious
YOU, started the thread.:)

[wsuwrhr]

YOU, started the thread.:)
I asked you two gentlemen individually not to muck up my thread.
You both ignored my request.
I am not the morality and or polite police, you both are grown men, carry on as you please, I guess.
I respect Steel's tech posts as well as yours Blown, the shit going on right now is completely unneccessary.
I didn't start this thread for a pissing contest, I started it for information and ideas how to approach my clearance problem
Brian

[steelcomp]

I asked you two gentlemen individually not to muck up my thread.
You both ignored my request.
I am not the morality and or polite police, your both are grown men, carry on as you please I guess.
I respect Steel's tech posts as well as yours Blown, the shit going on right now is completely unneccessarily.
I didn't start this thread for a pissing contest, I started it for information and ideas how to approach my clearance problem
BrianHey, I offered constructive input, I even took time to go through my Fed Mogul catalogue and get you a freekin part number, but this cock sucker, who hasn't got an original thought in his pea brain, decides to improperly quote Smokey in an attempt to cheap shot me. What "technnical post" has he offered of any use, ever?
This is one reson I spend less and less time in this shit hole.
Kiss my ass.

[Daytona100]

Hey, I offered constructive input, I even took time to go through my Fed Mogul catalogue and get you a freekin part number, but this cock sucker, who hasn't got an original thought in his pea brain, decides to improperly quote Smokey in an attempt to cheap shot me. What "technnical post" has he offered of any use, ever?
This is one reson I spend less and less time in this shit hole.
Kiss my ass.
Where the Hell is Nopomo ca?????????

[steelcomp]

Where the Hell is Nopomo ca?????????San Luis Obispo/ Pismo Beach area

[Blown 472]

Hey, I offered constructive input, I even took time to go through my Fed Mogul catalogue and get you a freekin part number, but this cock sucker, who hasn't got an original thought in his pea brain, decides to improperly quote Smokey in an attempt to cheap shot me. What "technnical post" has he offered of any use, ever?
This is one reson I spend less and less time in this shit hole.
Kiss my ass.
I was wondering why you are no longer with all those people you said you worked for, I can see why now.
Sorry to muck up your post but it seems steel feels the need to attack everyone that has a different opinon.

[Blown 472]

Cool, I figured it was the same as a wedge/hemi 426. I thought maybe the 6 pack might have a slighter larger ID.
What luck I have, crank at the upper limit, bearings at the upper limit and rods at the lower limit. No clearance.
So like my original plan....hone out .0002 on the big end, that will put me in the middle of the crush tolerance, with the X bearing +.001 I should be right at .0024-.0026
Good for a steel rod boat engine?
Brian
Why wouldn't you want to take the crank down to between the upper and lower limit?

[gn7]

duh, because bearings are faster cheaper and easier, and the crank and bearings have no way of knowing how you got to .025/.003, they just don't care.

[Warp Speed]

Wow,
All this drama from someone asking for bearing clearance help! :confused:
Back to the situation at hand.
I will re-state what some of the sharp cats here have already posted, and of course throw in my cent and a halves worth also!
If I understand this right, you are getting .0015 clearance, opening up to .002at the 45's? The parting line area should fall off about .002 from tightest clearance, so I imagine you are around .0035 at parting line. If this is with a standard bearing, the "X" bearings should do the trick. If not, we prefer to adjust the housing bore size within bearing manufactures specifications and mixing bearing sizes, rather than polishing the crank down, as this can quickly lead to out of round crank pins and a whole other set of problems! Open the rods to the high end of the housing bore size, then use a mix of standard and X bearing to achieve desired clearance. This should still give you plenty of bearing crush (we use .004 minimum, .007 max. but that is another topic) to keep the bearing in the housing bore. Remember, the bearing crush is the only thing that keeps the bearings in the bore, the tangs just align them during assembly. Losing this crush will have a small effect on heat transfer, but by the time the crush gets low enough to have a big effect, the bearing most likely will spin from load, and heat transfer rate will have little meaning at this point!
The "P" bearings mentioned in above posts have more fall off at the parting lines, to be a little more forgiving due to over-rev when using OEM tight clearances and stock rods. The down side to this, is that it gives area for the above mentioned hydro-dynamic oil wedge to bleed off (thus requiring more oil pressure to acheive the same quality oil wedge at the load points), but may keep the parting lines from wiping the crank clean of this wedge when piston speeds go above the limits for the parts used. Also, they have a softer overlay to aid in embedding debris often found in improperly maintained passenger cars.
The "H" bearings offer a harder overlay to withstand the high pressure loads from high hp applications. They still have plenty of fall off towards the parting line, and when used with good rods, will have almost .001 at the 45's, and over .002 at the parting lines (the air gauges we use only measure to +.00180 above our standard size, so it may be even more at the parting line) which is plenty when using good rods, or when keeping piston speed within the limits of the parts being used. These are the best bearing to use in all but stock applications where the increased parting line clearance and softer overlay may be needed.
This is the basics as I know them. I could talk for hours on this subject, but this takes me long enough to peck this down as it is.
Don't think I consider myself an "Expert" on the internal combustion engine (although I do know a few!) I am just fortunate enough to work in one of the most reputable race engine shops in North America, and have learned a thing or two from these people, and the millions we spend researching things like this every day. We have worked on the oiling system more in the past year, than in the last 20 years as a way to increase performance through efficiency and durability, so we have learned a couple of things along the way.
Would love to talk more about this, but don't want to hy-jack the thread, or ignore the problem at hand.
Open the housing bores up a few tenths, and play with the H and X bearings. You should be able to get where you want to go without the drama!
Let us know what you find!!
Warp Speed ;)

[gn7]

yep, everything you said is some where in this thread, every word, some more than once. the only reason I'am putting up this post is I wanted to be the guy to put up the 100TH post on this here very informative thread. Now lets move on to say.............how to get proper lash clearance, all those for grinding down the nose roller, raise your hand.

[pw_Tony]

Do you got it figured out yet Brian?

[Sleeper CP]

You don't post often, but when you do it's worth reading. I hope that answer's the Mopar guys problem.
You better be cafeful,:rolleyes: Blown 472 might ask how many of "your" engines have won races.;)
Safe to say more than his, I'll admitt I hardly know a damn thing about engine assembly, but I do know that bearings are cheaper than cranks and if you have a standard crank you keep it that way, unless you have absolutley no alternative. Me thinks Steel is vindicated.
Sleeper CP

[058]

Wow,
All this drama from someone asking for bearing clearance help! :confused:
Back to the situation at hand.
I will re-state what some of the sharp cats here have already posted, and of course throw in my cent and a halves worth also!
If I understand this right, you are getting .0015 clearance, opening up to .002at the 45's? The parting line area should fall off about .002 from tightest clearance, so I imagine you are around .0035 at parting line. If this is with a standard bearing, the "X" bearings should do the trick. If not, we prefer to adjust the housing bore size within bearing manufactures specifications and mixing bearing sizes, rather than polishing the crank down, as this can quickly lead to out of round crank pins and a whole other set of problems! Open the rods to the high end of the housing bore size, then use a mix of standard and X bearing to achieve desired clearance. This should still give you plenty of bearing crush (we use .004 minimum, .007 max. but that is another topic) to keep the bearing in the housing bore. Remember, the bearing crush is the only thing that keeps the bearings in the bore, the tangs just align them during assembly. Losing this crush will have a small effect on heat transfer, but by the time the crush gets low enough to have a big effect, the bearing most likely will spin from load, and heat transfer rate will have little meaning at this point!
The "P" bearings mentioned in above posts have more fall off at the parting lines, to be a little more forgiving due to over-rev when using OEM tight clearances and stock rods. The down side to this, is that it gives area for the above mentioned hydro-dynamic oil wedge to bleed off (thus requiring more oil pressure to acheive the same quality oil wedge at the load points), but may keep the parting lines from wiping the crank clean of this wedge when piston speeds go above the limits for the parts used. Also, they have a softer overlay to aid in embedding debris often found in improperly maintained passenger cars.
The "H" bearings offer a harder overlay to withstand the high pressure loads from high hp applications. They still have plenty of fall off towards the parting line, and when used with good rods, will have almost .001 at the 45's, and over .002 at the parting lines (the air gauges we use only measure to +.00180 above our standard size, so it may be even more at the parting line) which is plenty when using good rods, or when keeping piston speed within the limits of the parts being used. These are the best bearing to use in all but stock applications where the increased parting line clearance and softer overlay may be needed.
This is the basics as I know them. I could talk for hours on this subject, but this takes me long enough to peck this down as it is.
Don't think I consider myself an "Expert" on the internal combustion engine (although I do know a few!) I am just fortunate enough to work in one of the most reputable race engine shops in North America, and have learned a thing or two from these people, and the millions we spend researching things like this every day. We have worked on the oiling system more in the past year, than in the last 20 years as a way to increase performance through efficiency and durability, so we have learned a couple of things along the way.
Would love to talk more about this, but don't want to hy-jack the thread, or ignore the problem at hand.
Open the housing bores up a few tenths, and play with the H and X bearings. You should be able to get where you want to go without the drama!
Let us know what you find!!
Warp Speed ;)
Please feel free to hi-jack any thread you want, I doubt anyone would object. Thanks for the input as I've learned a few things myself.

[steelcomp]

Thanks Warp Speed. Informative, as usual.

[Blown 472]

You don't post often, but when you do it's worth reading. I hope that answer's the Mopar guys problem.
You better be cafeful,:rolleyes: Blown 472 might ask how many of "your" engines have won races.;)
Safe to say more than his, I'll admitt I hardly know a damn thing about engine assembly, but I do know that bearings are cheaper than cranks and if you have a standard crank you keep it that way, unless you have absolutley no alternative. Me thinks Steel is vindicated.
Sleeper CP
Yup and I am sure you enjoy swinging from his nuts.
Btw Brian, what is easier to machine and keep round, a shaft or a hole?

[Sleeper CP]

duh, because bearings are faster cheaper and easier, and the crank and bearings have no way of knowing how you got to .025/.003, they just don't care.:
Blown,
I think the above quote says it all. It's not just me.
And how did you know I liked swinging from nuts?:rolleyes:
Sleeper CP

[Blown 472]

:
Blown,
I think the above quote says it all. It's not just me.
And how did you know I liked swinging from nuts?:rolleyes:
Sleeper CP
Steel and I were talking about bearing crush in the begining.
Just a guess.

[MACHINEHEAD]

I think, what some of the people out there that may want to build an engine should do, is think twice about it. After all of the years gone by, something always comes up and I still get F'ed. You really cant just assemble a marine engine. I hear this "your just assembling the motor" shit. If you could just put it together than everybody would do it. Unfortunatly this happened to wishu. Im sure he is thinking right now that he should have checked everything first before spending money on crank treatments and the like. Even after his ten motors or so, this has got to sting. Bummer man, I feel for you. Thankfully I had my dad in the early stages (age 9 ) telling me to "check everything first" . I still hear that in my head or on the phone during a build. You other guys need to calm the **** down, its not your engine. He knows what hes doing, just needed a little advise, damn!

[steelcomp]

Steel and I were talking about bearing crush in the begining.
Just a guess.We weren't talking about anything, ass hole. You were sticking your nose somewhere where you don't know WTF you're talking about, (as usual) and I'd no more have a discussion with you than roll you off the sidewalk back into your gutter.
Btw Brian, what is easier to machine and keep round, a shaft or a hole?
Here's your answer to your stupid question, again, by someone who has far more patience and experience than I do. Maybe you want to check his resume???
Warp Speed quote:If this is with a standard bearing, the "X" bearings should do the trick. If not, we prefer to adjust the housing bore size within bearing manufactures specifications and mixing bearing sizes, rather than polishing the crank down, as this can quickly lead to out of round crank pins and a whole other set of problems!
You obviously don't know what goes into (trying to) take a few tenths off a crank and keep it round (you can't), vs. a few swipes with a rod hone. Of course, at ToughEnough Marine, they do it all the time with a crank polisher, so it must be state of the art. :notam:
Still waiting on that list, blown. You seem to keep avoiding that.

[Blown 472]

We weren't talking about anything, ass hole. You were sticking your nose somewhere where you don't know WTF you're talking about, (as usual) and I'd no more have a discussion with you than roll you off the sidewalk back into your gutter.
Here's your answer to your stupid question, again, by someone who has far more patience and experience than I do. Maybe you want to check his resume???
Warp Speed quote:
You obviously don't know what goes into (trying to) take a few tenths off a crank and keep it round (you can't), vs. a few swipes with a rod hone. Of course, at ToughEnough Marine, they do it all the time with a crank polisher, so it must be state of the art. :notam:
Still waiting on that list, blown. You seem to keep avoiding that.
Like I said before, I am not the great engine builder like you.

[steelcomp]

I think, what some of the people out there that may want to build an engine should do, is think twice about it. After all of the years gone by, something always comes up and I still get F'ed. You really cant just assemble a marine engine. I hear this "your just assembling the motor" shit. If you could just put it together than everybody would do it. Unfortunatly this happened to wishu. Im sure he is thinking right now that he should have checked everything first before spending money on crank treatments and the like. Even after his ten motors or so, this has got to sting. Bummer man, I feel for you. Thankfully I had my dad in the early stages (age 9 ) telling me to "check everything first" . I still hear that in my head or on the phone during a build. You other guys need to calm the **** down, its not your engine. He knows what hes doing, just needed a little advise, damn! This brings up a point again that I haven't heard anyone else mention. I was thinking about his crank treatment. That can sometimes increase the size of the crank, and is typically done after the grind. When I had my crank done, I had already had the block done and measured the bearings, and gave the crank grinder a dimension. I asked for a small dimension for added clearance, and it came back .001 bigger than what I asked for...obviously they didn't take enough off to allow for the heat treat, which was a little frustrating as these guys are a reputable shop, and should have known better. (It wasn't tuftride, it was something else that left a black fninsh...I forget what it's called) I had to basically go through what Brian's going through and mix and match uppers and lowers to get my clearance. It's not uncommon.

[GofastRacer]

I think, what some of the people out there that may want to build an engine should do, is think twice about it. After all of the years gone by, something always comes up and I still get F'ed. You really cant just assemble a marine engine. I hear this "your just assembling the motor" shit. If you could just put it together than everybody would do it. Unfortunatly this happened to wishu. Im sure he is thinking right now that he should have checked everything first before spending money on crank treatments and the like. Even after his ten motors or so, this has got to sting. Bummer man, I feel for you. Thankfully I had my dad in the early stages (age 9 ) telling me to "check everything first" . I still hear that in my head or on the phone during a build. You other guys need to calm the **** down, its not your engine. He knows what hes doing, just needed a little advise, damn!
Hey, this is Hot Boat remember!..LOL...:D :D :D

[rrrr]

After all this, I doubt Brian will ever ask for advice again......http://www.***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif

[GofastRacer]

Not out in the open anyhow!..LOL...:D

[wsuwrhr]

Why wouldn't you want to take the crank down to between the upper and lower limit?
Because it is a gennie-o standard/standard crank without a single mark on it.
I just couldn't bear to grind it.

[wsuwrhr]

and if you have a standard crank you keep it that way, unless you have absolutley no alternative.
Ding, ding, and ding.

[wsuwrhr]

Yup and I am sure you enjoy swinging from his nuts.
Btw Brian, what is easier to machine and keep round, a shaft or a hole?
Shaft... any day of the week.

[wsuwrhr]

Agreed. This is exactly what happened, I just got ahead of myself.
100% correct.
Believe me. The rod clearances were the LAST thing I checked. Damn.
Bit me in the ass too.
Brian
Unfortunatly this happened to wishu. Im sure he is thinking right now that he should have checked everything first before spending money on crank treatments and the like. Even after his ten motors or so, this has got to sting. Bummer man, I feel for you. Thankfully I had my dad in the early stages (age 9 ) telling me to "check everything first" . I still hear that in my head or on the phone during a build. You other guys need to calm the **** down, its not your engine. He knows what hes doing, just needed a little advise, damn!

[wsuwrhr]

This I agree with. .0002-.0003 off a shaft just isn't going to happen without a TON of setup time, it just wouldnt be worth it.
The rods will be getting the swipededy-swipe treatment just as soon as my mandrel shows up.
Brian
You obviously don't know what goes into (trying to) take a few tenths off a crank and keep it round (you can't), vs. a few swipes with a rod hone.

[wsuwrhr]

Do you got it figured out yet Brian?
More or less, I didn't check everything that needed to be checked before hand, figured with a standard crank and a standard set of rods there wasn't any real need to be concerned with too little of clearance.
I see now that was a terrible mistake.
I'll get over the hump alright, all it takes is money.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

This is quite possible, Chris looked at the crank and told me he wouldn't grind it as there was nothing to fix. He told me he would nitride it and leave it alone and here we are.
Brian
This brings up a point again that I haven't heard anyone else mention. I was thinking about his crank treatment. That can sometimes increase the size of the crank, and is typically done after the grind. When I had my crank done, I had already had the block done and measured the bearings, and gave the crank grinder a dimension. I asked for a small dimension for added clearance, and it came back .001 bigger than what I asked for...obviously they didn't take enough off to allow for the heat treat, which was a little frustrating as these guys are a reputable shop, and should have known better. (It wasn't tuftride, it was something else that left a black fninsh...I forget what it's called) I had to basically go through what Brian's going through and mix and match uppers and lowers to get my clearance. It's not uncommon.

[pw_Tony]

So Brian are you just going to hone out the rods?

[wsuwrhr]

So Brian are you just going to hone out the rods? I am going to hone the rods to the max 2.5005. Measure with the "X" bearing(whenever they show up) and hopefully I'll be closer to the clearance I need.
If that doesn't work, I'll investigate King bearings to see what they have.
...and if THAT doesn't work, I'll just break down and buy another set of bearings, F/M, or maybe Mopar Performance bearings.
We'll see.
Brian

[pw_Tony]

What rods are they?

[wsuwrhr]

What rods are they?
Factory stock 440 non sixpac rods.
At this point I wish I had bought longer aftermarket rods.
The compression height and pin diameter of Mopar bigblocks are both large.
Brian

[Blown 472]

Factory stock 440 non sixpac rods.
At this point I wish I had bought longer aftermarket rods.
The compression height and pin diameter of Mopar bigblocks are both large.
Brian
True dat, I put a set of K1's in my motta with a .990 pin.

[wsuwrhr]

True dat, I put a set of K1's in my motta with a .990 pin.
I have a set of +.4 with a .990 pin for the alloy motor.
Looking back, I don't know why I didn't buy a second set and use those.

[pw_Tony]

I think I have another set of 440-6 pack rods if those won't work out.... just in case :)

[Blown 472]

I have a set of +.4 with a .990 pin for the alloy motor.
Looking back, I don't know why I didn't buy a second set and use those.
http://www.campbellenterprises.com/K1-Technologies/k1-technologies.htm

[wsuwrhr]

I think I have another set of 440-6 pack rods if those won't work out.... just in case :)
6 pac rods are heavy beasts, I will leave those to the restorers of those cars/engines, I would feel guilty.
If I switch now, I have to have it re-balanced, have to take the crank out of course, might have to grind it as well, big pain in the ass.
Might as well switch to a longer after market rod with a smaller pin.
I don't want to go down that road unless I need to. At this point, I have about 2 Large in it right now in this two-year rebuild.
I didn't really plan it out, and it shows. "Failure to plan, is a plan for failure."

[wsuwrhr]

http://www.campbellenterprises.com/K1-Technologies/k1-technologies.htm
Are these a lower grade Carrillo rod? I says it is a Carrillo company.

[wsuwrhr]

Talk about a candy store.....
k1 dh7000aurba
Those are my champions right there. I shoulda put a little more time in than just buying a .03 set of JE pistons and go from there.
Damn.

[Blown 472]

Are these a lower grade Carrillo rod? I says it is a Carrillo company.
Not really sure, that is the first I saw that.

[Blown 472]

6 pac rods are heavy beasts, I will leave those to the restorers of those cars/engines, I would feel guilty.
If I switch now, I have to have it re-balanced, have to take the crank out of course, might have to grind it as well, big pain in the ass.
Might as well switch to a longer after market rod with a smaller pin.
I don't want to go down that road unless I need to. At this point, I have about 2 Large in it right now in this two-year rebuild.
I didn't really plan it out, and it shows. "Failure to plan, is a plan for failure."
Ya know anyone looking for a six pack block?

[Blown 472]

Talk about a candy store.....
k1 dh7000aurba
Those are my champions right there. I shoulda put a little more time in than just buying a .03 set of JE pistons and go from there.
Damn.
Diamond makes kick ass pistons too, I have the dished 440 piston with the .990 pin, next set will have a dome swinging on a set of BME rods.

[wsuwrhr]

Ya know anyone looking for a six pack block?
No sir,
Ebay it. At least you know thy guys bidding on it most likely NEEDS it for a resto. That is the only way I would use those types of parts anymore.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Diamond makes kick ass pistons too, I have the dished 440 piston with the .990 pin, next set will have a dome swinging on a set of BME rods.
I'm kinda a JE guy.
Good company, they run/last pretty good, and no clearance problems.:) :)
Brian

[Blown 472]

No sir,
Ebay it. At least you know thy guys bidding on it most likely NEEDS it for a resto. That is the only way I would use those types of parts anymore.
Brian
That is where it is right now, I figured it was worth more to the resto guys then for me to race it.

[wsuwrhr]

That is where it is right now, I figured it was worth more to the resto guys then for me to race it.
Exactly.
Thanks for keeping it alive.

[bumpstik]

wsuwhr: From reading this mess, I appears that you don't have a bearing catalog (the Speed pro catalog gives more info about bearings than most guys on this post know about) AND gives the housing bore dimensions for the bearings. It also appears that you dont have a dial bore gauge to measure actual clearences , but instead you're using bearing shell thickness to derive a 'should be ' clearence. And yet you seem to have sunnen equipment, which would imply you should know enough to not be asking the question in the first place. Could it be that you have a lot of high dollar Sunnen toys and don't know how to use them? Could it be the engines you have assembled so far have held together thru shear luck?

[wsuwrhr]

Oh here we go again....
ooooooooo come onnnnnnnnnnn duuuuuuudddddddeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....
did you even read the thread or just the LAST 10 pages?
7 total posts?
Obviously you are new here.....way to make an introduction.
wsuwhr: From reading this mess, I appears that you don't have a bearing catalog (the Speed pro catalog gives more info about bearings than most guys on this post know about) AND gives the housing bore dimensions for the bearings. It also appears that you dont have a dial bore gauge to measure actual clearences , but instead you're using bearing shell thickness to derive a 'should be ' clearence. And yet you seem to have sunnen equipment, which would imply you should know enough to not be asking the question in the first place. Could it be that you have a lot of high dollar Sunnen toys and don't know how to use them? Could it be the engines you have assembled so far have held together thru shear luck?

[bumpstik]

Actually, I read thru this several times, looking for the actual bearing clearence after you got the +.001 bearings. Couldn't find it.Lotsa 'coulda-woulda-shoulda' though. SO--do you have a bearing catalog (as any engine Builder would but assemblers don't need)? Do you have a bore guage? BTW opening up you rod housing bore will probably not change the clearence very much but greatly enhances the chance of spinning a bearing. BTW-- 7 posts does not make an inexperienced engine builder. Machinehead called me to take a look at this mess. I am a "car guy", and I do have several NHRA national records hanging on the wall and over the years ,have built everything from AMCs to Z/28s.

[thatguy]

I have read 'em all. And with all due respect, or not, I am glad I build my own motors and don't have to farm 'em out to so called profesionals. 2 years and the crank and rods ain't even layed? I'd call it a mess also. No offense, but I suspect that you are not the only one who doesn't miss your motor building career.
Just an observation, not trying to judge.
Tommy
This engine took 3 months, 2 of which where waiting on heads. Fired it the day after this picture.

[steelcomp]

Actually, I read thru this several times, looking for the actual bearing clearence after you got the +.001 bearings. Couldn't find it.Lotsa 'coulda-woulda-shoulda' though. SO--do you have a bearing catalog (as any engine Builder would but assemblers don't need)? Do you have a bore guage? BTW opening up you rod housing bore will probably not change the clearence very much but greatly enhances the chance of spinning a bearing. BTW-- 7 posts does not make an inexperienced engine builder. Machinehead called me to take a look at this mess. I am a "car guy", and I do have several NHRA national records hanging on the wall and over the years ,have built everything from AMCs to Z/28s.Wow...NHRA records! Those are worth the paper they're printed on. BFD. So what's your reason for posting here? You don't seem to be trying to help, or offering any good advice, just sounding like a dick, and doing a good job patting yourself on the back. FYI...opening the rod bore within tolerances will not greatly enhance the chance of spinning a bearing. That's just stupid. Going beyond tolerance might increase the chance, some, but rod bearings seldom "spin" because of rod dimensions, unless they're too small, or way out of round. My guess is, you're just an engine assembler, like the rest of us here. I only know a handfull of true engine builders, and they aren't about to waste their time here.
Nice intro, BTW. :notam:

[thatguy]

How long does it take to aquire 9,348 posts? Just wondering.
I think that since the crank cannot be touched, your' best option is torque rods as they will be in the engine, put blue dye on the journal, hone a couple core rods to true up the mandrell, and then take 'em to the outer tolerance. SCHWIIIIING!!
mystery solved!!
The dye is just my thing, I like to see where they are when I start. Especialy with the minimal amount being removed. ( thats also why I would do a couple cores first, with the finish stone) Good luck and god bless.
Tommy
PS- I built... I mean "assembled" another short in the time this thread has been up! I guess it must be fubar to be done already.

[Warp Speed]

BTW opening up you rod housing bore will probably not change the clearence very much but greatly enhances the chance of spinning a bearing. BTW-- 7 posts does not make an inexperienced engine builder. Machinehead called me to take a look at this mess. I am a "car guy", and I do have several NHRA national records hanging on the wall and over the years ,have built everything from AMCs to Z/28s.
Only 7 post doesn't make you an inexperienced engine builder, but your attitude and statements sure point in that direction!! :D

[Sleeper CP]

Hello WSUWRHR,
Just an observation from a bystander, I refer you to post # 100 from Warp Speed, a nice guy who has constructive advice and information. From his bio and who he works for, he is probably a busy guy, but he takes the time out of his day to help another person out. I'll contrast that to the last two pencil dick dip-sticks who joined this thread. What a couple of jackasses. Your problem got resolved, it's your engine and Warp Speed among other's offered constructive information that you and other's can use. And then two dip-sticks who probably don't know shit compaired to some of the people who offered helpful and constructive information, jump your shit to make themselves feel good.
Well ,I hope they feel better about themselves that they were able to put down another person today: Good for them.
It's your engine,it's your hobby and they can go phuck themselves with a 10" dildo.
You don't need me to stickup for you, but Holy Shit, what a couple of ASSES.
Live your dream and they can live in their miserable nightmare's.
Ditto to what Warp Speed posted above!!!
Sleeper CP

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Man you guys are playing nice in here:D :D Nice thread! A little of some drama mixed with some tech info;) I need to refill my grey goose :D

[MACHINEHEAD]

I think the advise from bumpstik was to get a dial bore gauge and measure the clearences directly. Thats good advise. Also a speed pro bearing catalogue with all of the critical bearing info, and then some, would also be helpful. I also would not recomend to anyone opening the housing up to get more clearence. Bumpstik's thread count may be low but I can tell you this man has pretty much done it all and is one of the forefathers of this sport. He is a little rough. And the comment about the national records is a bit harsh to anyone who has held one. These are given out to show everyone else that you are the man. At least on that day. At that race. But when you have a handful of them you become someone to be respected. Now everyone else is playing catch up trying to beat him. This makes motorsports in general, stronger as a whole. Look at what we have now 467" 817 HP pump gas, jet boat engines. You may want to be thanking him!

[wsuwrhr]

I might not have said it directly, but that is how I arrived where I am now. I did not have enough clearance when I measured the bearings, so I backtracked to try and find which component was the problem.
As it turns out, they are all the problem, all my parts are on the max (or min) side of the tolerance, creating the clearance problem. The crank nitriding probably increased the journal a couple-three tenths, compounding the issue.
I don't have speed-pro bearings, I already called Clevite tech and got the info I needed for the bearings.
I ordered "X" bearings and I am waiting for them to get here.
Done.
I am not scared.
I think the advise from bumpstik was to get a dial bore gauge and measure the clearences directly. Thats good advise. Also a speed pro bearing catalogue with all of the critical bearing info, and then some, would also be helpful.

[wsuwrhr]

Seven years, you might have noticed that, had you looked.
How long does it take to aquire 9,348 posts? Just wondering.

[wsuwrhr]

"that guy".....I am terribly sorry my projects don't coincide with your schedule(s). I have plenty of other things worry about, and spend time doing, than recreation(al) boating. Seriously, not on the top of my list.
Maybe in the top ten somewhere though.
Think this project is bad?...
I would chap your hide to know what kind of parts I have laying around for my flatbottom project. I haven't even looked at any of them since BEFORE I started working on the iron motor. haha
:) :) :)
I have read 'em all. And with all due respect, or not, I am glad I build my own motors and don't have to farm 'em out to so called profesionals. 2 years and the crank and rods ain't even layed? I'd call it a mess also. No offense, but I suspect that you are not the only one who doesn't miss your motor building career.
Just an observation, not trying to judge.
Tommy
This engine took 3 months, 2 of which where waiting on heads. Fired it the day after this picture.

[Daytona100]

Seven years, you might have noticed that, had you looked.
Hey don,t start no chit it took pages and pages of insults and suggestions just to figure out why your :D clearances were to tight.

[wsuwrhr]

Hey don,t start no chit it took pages and pages of insults and suggestions just to figure out why your :D clearances were to tight.
haha
So that means I am not allowed to swing a few back?

[Daytona100]

Alright just a few!!!!!!!:D

[thatguy]

Yeah, You are right, and I do apologize. I am busy also. Am only home 10 days a month. Sorry for getting out of line. Just seemed like an ordinary obstacle was getting blown way out of proportion. Again, I do apologize. Guess I was just feeling a little like being an ass, something I AM good at!!:D :D Hope you get it worked out and on the water soon.
Tommy
PS- I was a HUGE mopar fan for many years. Used to fly across country just to see Glidden whip Grumpy with that little 273 motor. I never really got into the big engines then, but did a lot of personal research and development w/ 340 platform. Mostly oiling and headwork. My favorite ride to this day is the '71 Duster I had in high school. Verti-gate shifter, sidepipes, 9" Dana, L-60 tires and primered grey!

[Blown 472]

Yeah, You are right, and I do apologize. I am busy also. Am only home 10 days a month. Sorry for getting out of line. Just seemed like an ordinary obstacle was getting blown way out of proportion. Again, I do apologize. Guess I was just feeling a little like being an ass, something I AM good at!!:D :D Hope you get it worked out and on the water soon.
Tommy
PS- I was a HUGE mopar fan for many years. Used to fly across country just to see Glidden whip Grumpy with that little 273 motor. I never really got into the big engines then, but did a lot of personal research and development w/ 340 platform. Mostly oiling and headwork. My favorite ride to this day is the '71 Duster I had in high school. Verti-gate shifter, sidepipes, 9" Dana, L-60 tires and primered grey!
273? thought Glidden was racing a 340??

[thatguy]

In the '79 season (and before and after) the CID/ Car wieght factor in NHRA Pro-Stock led him to a combination that was based on the 273 platform. His power wieght ratio was in fact a dominate combination in Pro-Stock w/ engine CID of less than 300 CI. He won the '79 Gatornationals, if memory serves, (I got to see it!) with the Arrow and the little motor. Took out Grumpy in fact.
Eventually NHRA restructered (slowly) to the IHRA Pro-Stock combo of max. CID/ Min. wieght to make the class more competitive and a bigger fan draw.
Tommy
I really hate dating myself like this, since my kids and grandkids are more mature than myself!:D

[steelcomp]

In the '79 season (and before and after) the CID/ Car wieght factor in NHRA Pro-Stock led him to a combination that was based on the 273 platform. His power wieght ratio was in fact a dominate combination in Pro-Stock w/ engine CID of less than 300 CI. He won the '79 Gatornationals, if memory serves, (I got to see it!) with the Arrow and the little motor. Took out Grumpy in fact.
Eventually NHRA restructered (slowly) to the IHRA Pro-Stock combo of max. CID/ Min. wieght to make the class more competitive and a bigger fan draw.
Tommy
I really hate dating myself like this, since my kids and grandkids are more mature than myself!:DAhhhh, those were the days. :D

[wsuwrhr]

The "X" bearings came in. Look just like the H bearings.
The few I measured were .0005-.0006 smaller than the H bearing.
Nice.
Brian