Rod bearing questions

[Cs19]

Ive got a set of Clevite CB743H rod bearings and need to tighten up my clearances by about half a thou on a few rods... I see there is a CB743H1 (-.001 bearing) will this loosen or tighten the clearance?
What about running only half of the -.001 shell in combination with a STD shell? Anything wrong with this and which side should the .001 be installed in? The upper or lower?
Last question is what is the STD dimension for the OD of the main and rod journals on a BBC.
Thanks.

[wsuwrhr]

nice
Let's see how well you are recieved.

[wsuwrhr]

Rod, 2.200
Last question is what is the STD dimension for the OD of the main and rod journals on a BBC.
Thanks.

[Fiat48]

Ive got a set of Clevite CB743H rod bearings and need to tighten up my clearances by about half a thou on a few rods... I see there is a CB743H1 (-.001 bearing) will this loosen or tighten the clearance?
What about running only half of the -.001 shell in combination with a STD shell? Anything wrong with this and which side should the .001 be installed in? The upper or lower?
Last question is what is the STD dimension for the OD of the main and rod journals on a BBC.
Thanks.
The bearing is .001 thicker...meaning less clearance.
Ok to do 1/2's but I would only do that with another H series bearing (champher).
Mains: 2.7485/ 2.7495
Rods: 2.1990/ 2.2000

[BDMar]

The H1 will tighten up the clearance by .001 (theoretically). You can mix the std. & .001 to get your .0005. My preference is to put the .001 in the upper.....
Rod journal is 2.1990/2.2000
Main journal is (1 thru 4)2.7482/2.7492 (5) 2.7478/2.7488

[BDMar]

Fiat types faster than me:D

[wsuwrhr]

but I would only do that with another H series bearing (champher).
H series are narrowed now, not chamfered.
the student is the teacher?

[wsuwrhr]

. My preference is to put the .001 in the upper.....
Just curious on the preference.
For posterity's sake only sir.
Brian

[Fiat48]

Well...what I was referring to is the chamfer....the relief for the radius of the journal...that is matches...you know...as in some brands and types of bearings have less chamfer than others?
The bearing on the left is the H series bearing. It is just as wide as the non H series bearing on the right. But look at the chamfer.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/SUC50232.JPG

[wsuwrhr]

Now they are narrowed instead of chamfered, is all I was saying.
The chamfer is "cut off" perse instead of it being machined for the fillet of the crank.
Brian

[Fiat48]

They may be but I have never seen one. Bearing shell you see here is dated 2005.

[wsuwrhr]

2007 buddy
05 is ANCIENT
haha

[Fiat48]

But I am ancient too. :D

[wsuwrhr]

But I am ancient too. :D
so you got the joke?
laughs

[Fiat48]

Well I can see your hungry for some controversy so here we go:
I would not fight rod bearings on a BBC for .0005 clearance. My experience has been the BBC is not that picky on rod bearing clearance. If it falls .0025, .003 I go with it. .002 might make me nervous....depending on the application. Have run .0035 on aluminum rod deals cause it fell in that way. Never had a rod bearing problem, spun rod or hammered bearing on any I have done.
Only replaced them out of "guilt" cause they been in there for years or if a piece of junk went through them.
Brand wise bearings I run:
Clevite 77
H bearing if I need the ummmm.....chamfer...or narrowed bearing to miss the radius.
Whatever is on sale and fix them with a pocket knife.
No warranty expressed or implied. Your mileage may vary.:D

[wsuwrhr]

Who is looking?
Well I can see your hungry for some controversy so here we go:
No warranty expressed or implied. Your mileage may vary.:D

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

2007 buddy
05 is ANCIENT
haha
Dammit Brian, leave the old guy alone :D He can still type and post pics. That makes Bob young at heart;) :p

[wsuwrhr]

Dammit Brian, leave the old guy alone :D He can still type and post pics. That makes Bob young at heart;) :p
Im just funnin with the old guy and his ancient chamfered bearings.
Those things are collector's items already.

[Cs19]

Damn! 15 replies that fast. Thanks guys, Im being sorta anal about my clearances but I want it as good as it can be.
Thanks again..
Chris.

[Fiat48]

Im just funnin with the old guy and his ancient chamfered bearings.
Those things are collector's items already.
Ha..Ha. I got some Vanderville's in stock too.
I'm gonna get me some of them new fangled bearings here...next motor I do.

[thatguy]

So there is no market now for my babbit pouring kit? Or my special leather bearing strap? :D :D

[steelcomp]

Well I can see your hungry for some controversy so here we go:
I would not fight rod bearings on a BBC for .0005 clearance. My experience has been the BBC is not that picky on rod bearing clearance. If it falls .0025, .003 I go with it. .002 might make me nervous....depending on the application. Have run .0035 on aluminum rod deals cause it fell in that way. Never had a rod bearing problem, spun rod or hammered bearing on any I have done.
Only replaced them out of "guilt" cause they been in there for years or if a piece of junk went through them.
Brand wise bearings I run:
Clevite 77
H bearing if I need the ummmm.....chamfer...or narrowed bearing to miss the radius.
Whatever is on sale and fix them with a pocket knife.
No warranty expressed or implied. Your mileage may vary.:DI agree.
Funny...I don't think anyone got the "pocket knife". :D

[steelcomp]

Half a thou or so on a few rods?? Things ought to be closer than that.

[wsuwrhr]

So there is no market now for my babbit pouring kit? Or my special leather bearing strap? :D :D
If you have got a Model "A" or "T" you may still need them.
I made bearings for an Overland about 7 years ago. Cool guy too.

[wsuwrhr]

I agree.
Funny...I don't think anyone got the "pocket knife". :D
I did dammit.
I may look stupid, but really I am not.

[steelcomp]

I did dammit.
I may look stupid, but really I am not. :D LOL...hey, don't call me dammit!:)

[GofastRacer]

I agree.
Funny...I don't think anyone got the "pocket knife". :D
Wanna bet!...:D

[steelcomp]

Wanna bet!...:DYeah, well, maybe you old guys. :D

[wsuwrhr]

Yeah, well, maybe you old guys. :D
I am not old and I got it.
I have scraped a bearing or two being a MACHINIST.
Brian

[steelcomp]

I am not old and I got it.
I have scraped a bearing or two being a MACHINIST.
BrianYou're a machinist???:eek: :D

[wsuwrhr]

You're a machinist???:eek: :D
In every sense of the word sir.
Brian

[steelcomp]

how long before we catch the other rod bearing thread?

[wsuwrhr]

how long before we catch the other rod bearing thread?
As soon as I post my results I guess.

[GofastRacer]

Yeah, well, maybe you old guys. :D
Easy there chief!..:hammer2: :D :D

[BDMar]

Now they are narrowed instead of chamfered, is all I was saying.
The chamfer is "cut off" perse instead of it being machined for the fillet of the crank.
Brian
I just looked at 3 different sets of new CB 743H bearings. All were chamfered. Is it possible that just the Mopar bearings are done that way or in your phone calls to Clevite were you told that they all would be that way now?

[wsuwrhr]

When I spoke to Clevite tech he said they didnt chamfer the bearings anymore. Narrowed bearings had the same bearing surface as the chamfered bearings with less material and less operations.
Now I did not ask specifically about ALL the H bearings as we we just talking about mine in particular. So you could have a point there.
Both of the sets I have are marked 2007. All are narrowed.
Brian
I just looked at 3 different sets of new CB 743H bearings. All were chamfered. Is it possible that just the Mopar bearings are done that way or in your phone calls to Clevite were you told that they all would be that way now?

[Terminal Velocity]

When I spoke to Clevite tech he said they didnt chamfer the bearings anymore. Narrowed bearings had the same bearing surface as the chamfered bearings with less material and less operations.
Now I did not ask specifically about ALL the H bearings as we we just talking about mine in particular. So you could have a point there.
Both of the sets I have are marked 2007. All are narrowed.
Brian
Well Brian is correct, here's what the Clevite catalog says upper right italic text...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/medium/Clevite_H_Series_to_HN.jpg
Second, Brian this whole clearance thing is your fault!@!:mad: You started all this crap and now all of us other idiots are having clearance issues!
Started checking the motor this weekend, Mains vary from .003 Rear to .006 Front and everywhere inbetween. Aaaarghhh, back to the machine shop.
It's all your fault Brian, i read your post before i started checking my clearances. PS all rods are dead on at .0027. Freaking figures.

[Terminal Velocity]

crap that's a little small ain't it. here's a bigger one.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Clevite_H_Series_to_HN.jpg

[wsuwrhr]

Haha sorry about that.
Was the block line-bored or honed?
did you check the bearing thickness, crank diameter and the main bore to find out which one was the problem?
Do that first before you go to the machine shop, might save you a trip.
Brian
Second, Brian this whole clearance thing is your fault!@!:mad: You started all this crap and now all of us other idiots are having clearance issues!
Started checking the motor this weekend, Mains vary from .003 Rear to .006 Front and everywhere inbetween. Aaaarghhh, back to the machine shop.
It's all your fault Brian, i read your post before i started checking my clearances. PS all rods are dead on at .0027. Freaking figures.

[Terminal Velocity]

Haha sorry about that.
Was the block line-bored or honed?
did you check the bearing thickness, crank diameter and the main bore to find out which one was the problem?
Do that first before you go to the machine shop, might save you a trip.
Brian
yea, i mic'd the crank came within .0001 of what the machine shop had (brand new crank) set my bore guage to .000 to the mic setting installed bearings torqued the mains started checking and was like WTF. did a reset start from scratch came up with the same numbers. So i figured i'd double check myself with some plastiguage sure as shiat everything off the same.
Rear - .003
4 - .0045
3 - .003
2 - .0055
1 - .006
So decided i'd mic the bearings to see about mix and match nope, damn clevite tolerances all the bearings mic'd the same. Even tried changing a main cap from a tight tolerance to loose one, nope same .006 (put main cap back where it came from). put a straight edge through the upper main bore and i can get .002 feeler guage under the front main so at that point i decided to start drinking more.
So i guess my old machine shop in SLC, Utah either forgot to align hone or really fawked it up (i'm guessing forgot to seeing as they were shutting down the business). When i had the block 0 decked at the new machine shop here in Vegas never even gave it a second thought to have them check it:rolleyes: .
O well, might invest in some billet main caps now.

[wsuwrhr]

Put the map caps back on with no bearings. Torque to spec, then measure the hole as you would if there were bearings inside. Just be sure.
Sounds like you could use a line hone though. Especially if you are right about the feeler gauge.
Bummer on your day for sure.
My problems aren't near as bad.
yea, i mic'd the crank came within .0001 of what the machine shop had (brand new crank) set my bore guage to .000 to the mic setting installed bearings torqued the mains started checking and was like WTF. did a reset start from scratch came up with the same numbers. So i figured i'd double check myself with some plastiguage sure as shiat everything off the same.
Rear - .003
4 - .0045
3 - .003
2 - .0055
1 - .006
So decided i'd mic the bearings to see about mix and match nope, damn clevite tolerances all the bearings mic'd the same. Even tried changing a main cap from a tight tolerance to loose one, nope same .006 (put main cap back where it came from). put a straight edge through the upper main bore and i can get .002 feeler guage under the front main so at that point i decided to start drinking more.
So i guess my old machine shop in SLC, Utah either forgot to align hone or really fawked it up (i'm guessing forgot to seeing as they were shutting down the business). When i had the block 0 decked at the new machine shop here in Vegas never even gave it a second thought to have them check it:rolleyes: .
O well, might invest in some billet main caps now.

[BDMar]

Main bearing bore diameter variance will make a difference in bearing diameters (I.D.). We are very particular about the finished diameter of the main bore. At the risk of starting another debate the same holds true for rods.:D

[Terminal Velocity]

Put the map caps back on with no bearings. Torque to spec, then measure the hole as you would if there were bearings inside. Just be sure.
Sounds like you could use a line hone though. Especially if you are right about the feeler gauge.
Bummer on your day for sure.
My problems aren't near as bad.
yea i'll do that just so i can sound intelligent instead of feeling to much like an idiot for not having the new machinest check it before i picked up all my shiat.
Hmmmm i wonder if i went to 150 torque i'd get the clearance:idea: j/k
O'well have to wait until Long Beach in august to race.

[steelcomp]

Main bearing bore diameter variance will make a difference in bearing diameters (I.D.). We are very particular about the finished diameter of the main bore. At the risk of starting another debate the same holds true for rods.:DThat's for sure. It's also wise to torque the caps before yoiu take the block to the machine shop...there's no guarantee they're going to tq. the same as you did, and it can vary. If you're using new studs or bolts, you need to cycle them (especially nuts and washers) through at least 5 tq cycles before they'll be consistant. Same with rods.
.003" from one end to the other sounds like someone wasn't paying attention to what they were doing with the hone. They should fix it for free.

[Cs19]

Now I dont feel so bad. Ive been pullin my hair out over a few tenths which is nothing compared to this guys problems. Hopefully your machine shop makes things right for you.
What are you guys shooting for clearance wise?

[Terminal Velocity]

That's a good idea, then they will be torqued to my wrench specs. Snap-on did calibrate it last year so i'm pretty confident the wrench is accurate. They aren't new bolts, but if i decide to go with the billet main caps i'll get new ones and cycle them as you suggested.
As for the rods, they are new Manley's and i'll do as you suggested and cycle them. Although it scares the holy piss out of me that they call for 90-100 lbs torque on the rods 'full body shiver' But i'll say this, at 95 they are ALL dead on at .0027. Can't ask for more than that. Yea i know i should get a rod bolt stretch guage.
I'm sure the old machine shop just forgot to do it, they've done all my work since mid-eighties and never had a problem with their work. They were closing down the business and i'm sure this just got overlooked and not attended to instead of just a crappy job. The new machinest here in Vegas has all CNC block prep equipment, so far i'm impressed with what i've asked him to do for me of course i haven't put one of the engines in and run it yet...
i'd like to see .003 - .0035, it's for my circle Super Stock boat.
And as i said...IT'S ALL BRIAN'S FAULT he started this clearance problem crap!

[wsuwrhr]

You're welcome? haha
you are talking about main clearance right?
Rods should be .002-.0025, at least that is what I have always set mine up at.
Natrually-aspirated Gasoline engines BTW.
Brian
i'd like to see .003 - .0035, it's for my circle Super Stock boat.
And as i said...IT'S ALL BRIAN'S FAULT he started this clearance problem crap!

[Cs19]

What about mains. .003?

[Fiat48]

.003 is fine.

[Warp Speed]

That's for sure. It's also wise to torque the caps before yoiu take the block to the machine shop...there's no guarantee they're going to tq. the same as you did, and it can vary. If you're using new studs or bolts, you need to cycle them (especially nuts and washers) through at least 5 tq cycles before they'll be consistant. Same with rods.
Very good advice!!
Assembly should reproduce machining torque specs and lube as closely as possible. You can find a measurable differance (depending on instrument used) between 10-30 oil, and 20-50 oil of the same manufacturer when lubing nuts and studs, let alone torque wrenches and applications. ALWAYS use the SAME lube and torque specs (and sequence) when fitting and assembly, as machining. The closer you get to the edge (HP, piston speed and clearances), the more important this becomes.
If you want to get real picky, you can lightly lap both sides of the washers on a granite block or piece of glass using 600 grit wet paper. This can also be done to the mating surface of the nuts as well. Another thing you can do is to engrave the nuts for position. That way, when they are torqued for machine and assembly, they are getting lapped to the same set of threads.
This may seem like picking fly shit out of pepper, but that is what we are doing when you start pushing parts to the edge.
Same can be said for rod bolts / nuts. Mark the 1A (tang side) 1B (opposite tang) so once they are lapped in, the chances of something moving is reduced. Especialy if they are going to be used for more than one rebuild.
As ALWAYS, use the EXACT same lube and torque / angle specs for machining as fit and assembly.
One thing on clearances, the rule of thumb in a perfect world is .001 clearance for every 1" of shaft diameter. Depending on the quality of parts being used for a given application, piston speed, and oil system and viscocity. For most combo's, this should be used as the "low limit" of tollerance. If your stuff is as close to perfect as today's technology will allow, this can be used as a "high limit", and power and durability gains from efficiency can be had. When playing this close, you need to hold tollerances to +/- .0001 during machining and assembly. The farther away from this you can hold, Due to equipment or skill / experiance, the more you need to open things up for a safety margine due to tollerance stack.
All this discusion and info, and very little drama. What's wrong guy's!?!?!?!? :confused: :D
Warp Speed ;)

[thatguy]

Been busy......BOATING! OUCH, :D :D It's just a joke.
It is very frustrating when you know exactly what you want, but can't seem to get somebody to do exactly what you want. My conclusion is nobody cares quite as much as the owner does about perfection. As machinist's, you know a guy may do a few line-hones, bore some blocks, knock out a couple set's of rods, hang some pistons and after work spin up a crank for a buddy on any given day. He just can't worry about one single job. Sad but true.
If you find a machine shop that will let you talk to the guy doing the actual work on your stuff, that is a huge plus. If he knows what your application is, and that it is not just another rebuild on some station wagon, He will spend that extra time in most cases and get it just right.
He might consider it a pain in his ass, but he will try harder if he knows that it matters that much to you.
Of course, an extra twenty in his hand goes a long way too! :D :D
Tommy

[wsuwrhr]

An extra 20?
Brian
Of course, an extra twenty in his hand goes a long way too! :D :D
Tommy

[thatguy]

$20.00, or have prices changed too?

[wsuwrhr]

$20.00, or have prices changed too?
I'm just saying, what does 20 bucks buy you anymore, shine up the bottom of a gas tank.
I would rather you show up with a 12 pack than 20, saves me the trip to the store.
A 50 spot........now you're talkin.
$20? You don't get out much anymore do you?
haha
Just funnin with you anyway.
Brian<----hasn't ever received a tip

[thatguy]

I guess I don't get out enough. Last time I cruised the docks by myself none of the girls wanted a ride. They called me "mister" and "sir". Then they all got in a DCB or something, with some punk driving, and left. I've been socially traumatized ever since. :( :(
Tommy
PS- Did you get your rod deal figured out?

[wsuwrhr]

More or less, all it takes is money.
PS- Did you get your rod deal figured out?

[Cs19]

Got my .001 bearings, they dont work exactly like I thought they would but after some fooling around I got what I wanted, real happy with my clearances. Thanks for your help guys.