Impeller inducer question?????

[widowmaker]

For those of you out there racing tunnels like the daytona and cheyenne. I want to know if the impeller inducers are worth the time and money spent for improving holeshot, and do they shroud the impeller in anyway at the top end? Maybe Cyclone and CS19 can give their two cents, and anyone else that has one in there boat and can attest to actually differences made just by installing an inducer, perhaps half track times???
At this point I have just got the boat back from getting a rounded keel put on the boat and it turned out bitchen. Not to mention there was a 1/4 of hook in the boat next to the intake fins. (ouch) good thing that got resolved too.
I swung by MPD on the way home and spoke to Jack and he recommended several items. One of which was the impeller inducer and detailing the impeller.
I have a lathe and a mill, and was considering doing it myself along with sending the impeller to have it detailed. I currently have an AQ shaft which I believe is the good one to have.
Lots of questions so thank you in advance guys

[djdtpr]

I run one in my stealth and would recomend it for sure. I dont know what kind of power you are running but it really helped mine. I also run a detailed impeller and bowl the inducer is detailed also. You should notice a pretty big difference with the bottom done also.

[hotbo]

well idont have a tunnel boat or a lite layup boat.i have a 18ft taylor sj with e pump and b impeller.i bought one last year and it did help my holeshot minumal and it cuased my pump to cavitate on the big end and cost me 3mph.:devil: no i dont have alot of experience with the inducers only what i was told so i wasted money alot of money and time.look in other areas before you buy a band aid:D

[IMPATIENT 1]

well idont have a tunnel boat or a lite layup boat.i have a 18ft taylor sj with e pump and b impeller.i bought one last year and it did help my holeshot minumal and it cuased my pump to cavitate on the big end and cost me 3mph.:devil: no i dont have alot of experience with the inducers only what i was told so i wasted money alot of money and time.look in other areas before you buy a band aid:D
omg, its travis on ***boats:D :D i got dibs on the inducer you pulled off! i should know before july if i'll need 1 trav.

[Pops@Aggressor]

Nothing is better then a natural system. Meaning the cleanest quickest Line/least resistence. 2 stage pumps have been around in our industry since the 1950s. and always used for a specific purpose. Again- its a Band Aid vs a clean worked out bottom and loading program. All Pre-load Impellers produced today will cause you cavation just by the nature of the beast. A Axial Impeller slings water as a much like a prop will.
5-6 years ago a Blown Gas Race Team(Dan Nelson Ran a NJBA 7.27-7.29 & 7.31 none were allowed by the board for some clock reasons or politics, so Dan gave NJBA the flip off and went the next day to IHBA and ran a 7.63 that alone made the NJBA number good-and I use this only to qualify the next) Dan ran 4 sets of pre-load in and pre-load out, No change in the numbers only cavatation showed up while running the pre-loader in. Proof of the cavatation -Speed coating -he could make 8-10 passes on, while the pre-loaded condition took out all the speed coat in one run.
#2 both pre-loaders on the marked today produce over 400 Gals/P/M & the other over 550 Gals/P/M more then the total output of Dans Pump - Which for us is the highest pump we have ever calculated @4880+ (basis: full on-board system, full sensors pedo tube @ exit. Data was turned over to Chevron pump engineer for review and calculations).
I don't disagree with the use, Yet a good bottom and set up still proves to be the cleanest line: notice Dan still is the record holder in Blown Gas E.T. IHBA. Dan quit as he later was not allowed to run under a 8.0 E.T. while stuck with a 7.70 Baseline which would disqualify him should he run under the 8.0 number. Rumor has it, some of Tom's teaching stuck with a lot who will be showing up in the near future across the country and I see a old desert rat by the name of Vic is out there with his son in law starting to bust some chops also- Vic is a old spanker from the Ross Wilder, Tom Papp Team when Tom worked for Pappy.
Right after Tom passed away I was ready to sell or quit. But then Darren & Brian (Toms TPR, now Bad Habits Racing) started calling. Vic a long old friend, found a son in law who wants to race and be taught, Frank Nagore who went down this road, found the Racers to be the ones to come thru and has commited to complete what is to be a test & tune year for his program. Frank just ran a 7.31 this past week & called me Sat & Sunday enjoying each stage mark he hits. Yesterday another Friend called who I helped get set in the right direction, sent to Tom for the right hull. This guy has the rear kicker if ever. He comes off the trailer at 149 and 7.50 ET in a IHBA event, followed up with a great showing @ the Smoke on the Water & a great World Finals. He had been sold a program by another and changed from our product as he had blown up our Bowl. I understood when he left & yet also convinced on load not right and it will happen again if thats the case. What I did learn, the change over caused him to put 4% more boost in the motor to run the same 8.0 min ET he is allowed ( No Capsule IHBA). If I can get him to let Phil Roshem (another TOM schooled man)help him on his set-up, I think he will see all the rewards due him. Anyway all this is bringing reason to hang in there, and to those of you that are caught up in the loss of Tom- go slow on your changes and be very careful in who you let help. I expect a lot of fake Guru's like we had 6-7 years ago. - I see panic on some while others are doing what was taught to them. 140s have been here and 150s are comming 7.50s reached and 6.80s are comming. No fly high today -thats just old HP style if your high and loose your digging a hole and leaving that footprint- What it is -Is what it is. " TOM PAPP"

[djdtpr]

Nothing is better then a natural system. Meaning the cleanest quickest Line/least resistence. 2 stage pumps have been around in our industry since the 1950s. and always used for a specific purpose. Again- its a Band Aid vs a clean worked out bottom and loading program. All Pre-load Impellers produced today will cause you cavation just by the nature of the beast. A Axial Impeller slings water as a much like a prop will.
5-6 years ago a Blown Gas Race Team(Dan Nelson Ran a NJBA 7.27-7.29 & 7.31 none were allowed by the board for some clock reasons or politics, so Dan gave NJBA the flip off and went the next day to IHBA and ran a 7.63 that alone made the NJBA number good-and I use this only to qualify the next) Dan ran 4 sets of pre-load in and pre-load out, No change in the numbers only cavatation showed up while running the pre-loader in. Proof of the cavatation -Speed coating -he could make 8-10 passes on, while the pre-loaded condition took out all the speed coat in one run.
#2 both pre-loaders on the marked today produce over 400 Gals/P/M & the other over 550 Gals/P/M more then the total output of Dans Pump - Which for us is the highest pump we have ever calculated @4880+ (basis: full on-board system, full sensors pedo tube @ exit. Data was turned over to Chevron pump engineer for review and calculations).
I don't disagree with the use, Yet a good bottom and set up still proves to be the cleanest line: notice Dan still is the record holder in Blown Gas E.T. IHBA. Dan quit as he later was not allowed to run under a 8.0 E.T. while stuck with a 7.70 Baseline which would disqualify him should he run under the 8.0 number. Rumor has it, some of Tom's teaching stuck with a lot who will be showing up in the near future across the country and I see a old desert rat by the name of Vic is out there with his son in law starting to bust some chops also- Vic is a old spanker from the Ross Wilder, Tom Papp Team when Tom worked for Pappy.
Right after Tom passed away I was ready to sell or quit. But then Darren & Brian (Toms TPR, now Bad Habits Racing) started calling. Vic a long old friend, found a son in law who wants to race and be taught, Frank Nagore who went down this road, found the Racers to be the ones to come thru and has commited to complete what is to be a test & tune year for his program. Frank just ran a 7.31 this past week & called me Sat & Sunday enjoying each stage mark he hits. Yesterday another Friend called who I helped get set in the right direction, sent to Tom for the right hull. This guy has the rear kicker if ever. He comes off the trailer at 149 and 7.50 ET in a IHBA event, followed up with a great showing @ the Smoke on the Water & a great World Finals. He had been sold a program by another and changed from our product as he had blown up our Bowl. I understood when he left & yet also convinced on load not right and it will happen again if thats the case. What I did learn, the change over caused him to put 4% more boost in the motor to run the same 8.0 min ET he is allowed ( No Capsule IHBA). If I can get him to let Phil Roshem (another TOM schooled man)help him on his set-up, I think he will see all the rewards due him. Anyway all this is bringing reason to hang in there, and to those of you that are caught up in the loss of Tom- go slow on your changes and be very careful in who you let help. I expect a lot of fake Guru's like we had 6-7 years ago. - I see panic on some while others are doing what was taught to them. 140s have been here and 150s are comming 7.50s reached and 6.80s are comming. No fly high today -thats just old HP style if your high and loose your digging a hole and leaving that footprint- What it is -Is what it is. " TOM PAPP"
Things like this put a smile on my face and a spring in my step.Thanks i apreciate the input.I was with Vics son in law last weekend helping him out they are great people.

[hotbo]

wow what write up mr.agressor.:D
this inducer is b.s. in my opinion:mad: .
when i bought mine oh thye were the greatest.more guys i know hate them than love them.they can help load the pump more efficently but will generally always hurt the big end and thats were it counts.:jawdrop: i was tryin to read pump pressure in my pump with mine in trying to fine a cavitation problem i have could not read accurate with it in.took it out with the advice of a long time friend and pump guru here in arkansas.bigo 90% cavitation gone pump pressure came up and gained 3mph.now thats no coincidence:jawdrop:
torpedo you want dibs you got it.bro you better fix your pump the natural way though.:)

[djdtpr]

wow what write up mr.agressor.:D
this inducer is b.s. in my opinion:mad: .
when i bought mine oh thye were the greatest.more guys i know hate them than love them.they can help load the pump more efficently but will generally always hurt the big end and thats were it counts.:jawdrop: i was tryin to read pump pressure in my pump with mine in trying to fine a cavitation problem i have could not read accurate with it in.took it out with the advice of a long time friend and pump guru here in arkansas.bigo 90% cavitation gone pump pressure came up and gained 3mph.now thats no coincidence:jawdrop:
torpedo you want dibs you got it.bro you better fix your pump the natural way though.:)
I have nothing but good to say about mine. At the hit of the throttle i could not get just an impeller to bite. Usuall in drag racing its all about how hard you can get them to leave specialy with jets. I never noticed any cavitation on the big end that was caused by the inducer. Maybe Tommy and i got lucky with mine though! But i doubt it.

[RCB19]

wow what write up mr.agressor.:D
this inducer is b.s. in my opinion:mad: .
when i bought mine oh thye were the greatest.more guys i know hate them than love them.they can help load the pump more efficently but will generally always hurt the big end and thats were it counts.:jawdrop: i was tryin to read pump pressure in my pump with mine in trying to fine a cavitation problem i have could not read accurate with it in.took it out with the advice of a long time friend and pump guru here in arkansas.bigo 90% cavitation gone pump pressure came up and gained 3mph.now thats no coincidence:jawdrop:
torpedo you want dibs you got it.bro you better fix your pump the natural way though.:)
Who set up your pump??? Ever think that might be the problem? The detail on the DPS inducer is pretty crude out of the box and needs some attention just like an impeller does. I have heard of situations on certain applications where there was no gain at all but I have never heard of anyone going backwards in performance after the install.

[hotbo]

i never said that i was right or wrong on the inducer;) mine pump did not like it period.i set my own pumps up.my pump is a e-pump.not every boat needs one try your best to fix the problem without it.scotts marine in hot springs arkansas has been around along time like alot of other jet pump guys.he hates them everything he puts them in they do no good and he has reported loses with them.if you set a pump up right they generally do okay with the inital hit of the foot pedal.now not all boats will load the pump without them.:) he has several high horsepower boats in every application he put them in he lost speed maybe minumal but still lost.remember waht mr aggressor said naturall is the best.he has 1 boat that has a agreesor pump in it.tx-18 he makes these boats has his old molds.anyway that boat slipps no matter what he did with a 900h.8-71 blowe bbc.put the inducer in and it helped his holeshot but hurt the big end.3 mph.but in another boat with a bekley pump and the same motor the boat will not slip a ounce the naturall way.both boats had a impellers truned 6300rpm.identical to one another.the problem can be in the bowl impeller intake ect.just sayin try every thing possible before you pay 300+ for one of the little bugers.no 2 boats are the same.not trying to be a smart elec and tell every one they wrong with them in there,just simply do your best before you band aid it.:)
as for my pump.my boat so far has gone opposite of every one elses normal stuff to make you go fast.bought high dollar inducer loader shoe ride plate droop straight snoot get the picture.they all hurt me:mad: i tuned every thing the best i could before i went back and swithed to some thing people even said would not work.bingo worked for my boat.the name of my boat is dazed and confused no you know why:idea:

[IMPATIENT 1]

wow what write up mr.agressor.:D
this inducer is b.s. in my opinion:mad: .
when i bought mine oh thye were the greatest.more guys i know hate them than love them.they can help load the pump more efficently but will generally always hurt the big end and thats were it counts.:jawdrop: i was tryin to read pump pressure in my pump with mine in trying to fine a cavitation problem i have could not read accurate with it in.took it out with the advice of a long time friend and pump guru here in arkansas.bigo 90% cavitation gone pump pressure came up and gained 3mph.now thats no coincidence:jawdrop:
torpedo you want dibs you got it.bro you better fix your pump the natural way though.:)
bro you better fix your pump the natural way though.:)[/QUOTE]
yeah, that's what me and billy talked about for 3-4hrs last nite:rolleyes: i was up till 2am trying to get my carbs perfectly sinc'd:(

[Devilman]

yeah, that's what me and billy talked about for 3-4hrs last nite:rolleyes: i was up till 2am trying to get my carbs perfectly sinc'd:(
Just because you were listening to N'Sync, don't think thats gonna help your carbs any. :D

[IMPATIENT 1]

Who set up your pump??? Ever think that might be the problem? The detail on the DPS inducer is pretty crude out of the box and needs some attention just like an impeller does. I have heard of situations on certain applications where there was no gain at all but I have never heard of anyone going backwards in performance after the install.
travis is a good friend of mine and knows how to tune/build a pump;) i've talked with him many a time over the phone about the cavitation probs he's was having and when he removed the inducer, whammo they were gone;) he reworked the bottom over the winter as well, so his hull is in great shape there.

[IMPATIENT 1]

Just because you were listening to N'Sync, don't think thats gonna help your carbs any. :D
:eek: :eek: hadn't drank that many silver bullets yet:D i was up jammin some ole pearl jam greatest hits:)

[Rondane]

as for my pump.my boat so far has gone opposite of every one elses normal stuff to make you go fast.bought high dollar inducer loader shoe ride plate droop straight snoot get the picture.they all hurt me:mad: i tuned every :idea:
maybe you should have been around the right people to let you try before you buy? Why would you put an inducer with an E pump anyway? Kinda like using them with a AA impeller...whats the point?
rondane

[IMPATIENT 1]

maybe you should have been around the right people to let you try before you buy? Why would you put an inducer with an E pump anyway? Kinda like using them with a AA impeller...whats the point?
rondane
who the hell is gonna let you borrow a machined shaft and inducer to "try":rolleyes: lol:D

[sofa king smooth]

Widow was your boat was at Archer Marine? If so I helped flip it my shop is next door. Dan is a good guy and does good work. Yes the keel came out nice on your boat.

[Gearhead]

I can see from this thread there are going to be multiple opinions on the inducer. I have to agree with Pops from a hydrodynamic view the straightest and smoothest flow path is the most efficient and one of least resistance. In a perfect world of everything developed and tuned correctly this would be true. Anytime you bend water or place another obstacle in the way, even droops and diverters, we are altering the path of the water that may affect efficiency.
However, I would say most of the boaters on this site don't have a perfect world situation. Very few of us have the power or technology that exist in boats like Dan Nelson's. So, let's look at this from another perspective. As Mike Edwards stated over thirty years ago, (paraphrased) each jetboat is different and it is up to you to tune your boat to the best performance ability.
There have been improvements over the years, especially with the advent of data aquisition over the last twenty years, but the basic jet pump design and characteristics has changed very little in the last forty years. Hull designs have seen improvements, but really just minor changes on the best hulls since the mid eighties. Some of the mid eighty Cheyennes are still the fastest hulls in the normally aspirated classes and many of the Placecraft and Eliminators (with bottom mods) are still the fastest in blown classes. Now the TPR, etc are newer improvements, but not really redesigns.
In my humble opinion, the inducer can be a very good addition to many recreational jets and some race jetboats. On the lake, a lot of the fun races are determined in just a few hundred feet. When you can deck a 700 to 1000 hp powered engine in a jetboat from practically dead still in the water and go... well there is not much like it.
We have run various eight to eleven second boats at the track with good e.t. gains. One Pro Gas Cheyenne picked up right at a tenth, but lost about 1 MPH on the average. A few other boats picked up almost three tenths in the quarter with either no loss of mph to a couple of mph loss. Now I am an old drag racer and I'll take a tenth lower in e.t. over a mph or so in finished speed anyday.
So, if an experienced and respected pump builder that is familiar with your hull style recommends trying an inducer, I would not be against giving it a try. If it does not work, well, it is pretty easy to pull back out. I think it gets back to how Mike Edwards was trying to open our minds to thirty years ago. Funny thing, though, we still want to know what the other guy is doing even though our hull may be totally different. At the same time, hopefully we still can learn from each other.
Gearhead

[hotbo]

excellent write up.the key is no 2 are the same.my only point is dont waste your money cuase a bunch of b.s. guys on websites they are great.and dont listen to everybody at the sanbar either it sometimes will cost yoy money.:mad:.
as far as e-pumps and not being around the right people i found that out the hard way:jawdrop: i wont name places of buissness on here but they can lie,cheat and steal form some other poor ole country hick.:)

[hotbo]

maybe you should have been around the right people to let you try before you buy? Why would you put an inducer with an E pump anyway? Kinda like using them with a AA impeller...whats the point?
rondane
what the hell does that mean.:) whats the point ask all the idiots out there that said you have to have one to make better holeshot and speed.:eek:
to many times people buy into conversations and ads better mph better economy.please:mad: dont always buy something b/c it worked in a drag boat when you have a lake boat big difference there.later travis:D

[IMPATIENT 1]

I can see from this thread there are going to be multiple opinions on the inducer. I have to agree with Pops from a hydrodynamic view the straightest and smoothest flow path is the most efficient and one of least resistance. In a perfect world of everything developed and tuned correctly this would be true. Anytime you bend water or place another obstacle in the way, even droops and diverters, we are altering the path of the water that may affect efficiency.
However, I would say most of the boaters on this site don't have a perfect world situation. Very few of us have the power or technology that exist in boats like Dan Nelson's. So, let's look at this from another perspective. As Mike Edwards stated over thirty years ago, (paraphrased) each jetboat is different and it is up to you to tune your boat to the best performance ability.
There have been improvements over the years, especially with the advent of data aquisition over the last twenty years, but the basic jet pump design and characteristics has changed very little in the last forty years. Hull designs have seen improvements, but really just minor changes on the best hulls since the mid eighties. Some of the mid eighty Cheyennes are still the fastest hulls in the normally aspirated classes and many of the Placecraft and Eliminators (with bottom mods) are still the fastest in blown classes. Now the TPR, etc are newer improvements, but not really redesigns.
In my humble opinion, the inducer can be a very good addition to many recreational jets and some race jetboats. On the lake, a lot of the fun races are determined in just a few hundred feet. When you can deck a 700 to 1000 hp powered engine in a jetboat from practically dead still in the water and go... well there is not much like it.
We have run various eight to eleven second boats at the track with good e.t. gains. One Pro Gas Cheyenne picked up right at a tenth, but lost about 1 MPH on the average. A few other boats picked up almost three tenths in the quarter with either no loss of mph to a couple of mph loss. Now I am an old drag racer and I'll take a tenth lower in e.t. over a mph or so in finished speed anyday.
So, if an experienced and respected pump builder that is familiar with your hull style recommends trying an inducer, I would not be against giving it a try. If it does not work, well, it is pretty easy to pull back out. I think it gets back to how Mike Edwards was trying to open our minds to thirty years ago. Funny thing, though, we still want to know what the other guy is doing even though our hull may be totally different. At the same time, hopefully we still can learn from each other.
Gearhead
can i borrow your inducer and shaft??? rondane said soo:D lol
hey gear, you guys coming to bb on labor day or the 4th???

[widowmaker]

Widow was your boat was at Archer Marine? If so I helped flip it my shop is next door. Dan is a good guy and does good work. Yes the keel came out nice on your boat.
Yes it was, everything turned out great. I still need to address the shoe, and loader at this point, both of mine are fairly crude to say the least. Thanks for the help. I had stopped by on a sunday and Jeff was in your shop with a few boats. I hoping to make Ming in September. I've got a lot of work to do! Thanks guys for your input.

[Bense468]

Maybe I missed it but how much power are you throwing at it? Just curious

[widowmaker]

Maybe I missed it but how much power are you throwing at it? Just curious
around 700+ I'm guessing, we'll just have to see what happens.

[Cs19]

Widow, sorry i got all sidetracked in this thread last night and forgot to reply .. Yes I have an inducer and I do like it. It didnt set the world on fire when I installed it but when your trying to get everything out of your boat I think its a good thing. I have data with and without the DPS. In my opinion it worked for me.
Hopefully we see you at Ming, hollar if you need anything.
Chris.

[Rondane]

i wont name places of buissness on here but they can lie,cheat and steal form some other poor ole country hick.:)
yup, just ask taylorman. Funny thing is he keeps going back for more. :)

[IMPATIENT 1]

yup, just ask taylorman. Funny thing is he keeps going back for more. :)
rondane, i will admit myself i got a bad taste from my last dealings.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

yup, just ask taylorman. Funny thing is he keeps going back for more. :)
I figured that you would grow up someday. I guess I was wrong.......:sqeyes:

[Pops@Aggressor]

Last Thing- On A "D" and Smaller-Always Use the Shallow Beach start with a Inducer and Two Big Guy's to push you OFF!

[Jet Hydro]

rondane, i will admit myself i got a bad taste from my last dealings.
:idea: Are you talking about who I think?