Revised 460 Build...Advice welcome!!

[cudaz101]

I posted earlier about my build and had a plan in mind and got some great advice. Well now that things are in motion plans have been skewed a bit.
Here is what I got so far....
C93VE heads (Mild Porting) fresh w/stock valves
1.80 Roller Rockers
CAM is still up in the air...Will match the vlv. springs up w/cam though.
Intake & Carb: CARB is for sure going to be a 750-800 Edelbrock, Intake Torquer or Performer?? Have a line on a Torquer but have read negative information on them??? Some say they have ran both and not noticed a differance and others report otherwise...heh??
Stock Rods with ARP bolt set.
Cast Dish Pistons to net approx. 9.2.1 compression or there abouts. I believe the heads are 72 or 74CC?? Want to be able to run 87 Octane.
Have a line on some water injected TT Basset Headers that I plan on getting.
Have Billet MSD Dizzy.
Comments...Advice, suggestions??
Brad

[SB]

What boat, what size impeller, and what is your hp target?
Sounds like you're going to have a stock engine (nothing wrong with that), so no need to do anything fancy with the cam, intake, or exhaust.
I dunno if you can run that on 87 oct.

[058]

Dump the cast pistons. Forged are priced reasonable enough not to use them. Summit price on Speed Pro #2404L $335.00 a set. Cheapest insurance money can buy.

[Xerophobic]

Do NOT use cast pistons if you want to run cheap gas. Nothing kills more jetboat motors than detonation, its not a car motor! Skip right past the Hypereutectics too you will thank yourself later. If this is the only item you spend good money on do it!
Other than that I'd recommend you call some cam companies and let them know basically what you just told us, they have some very knowledgeable people who can recommend something that will work nice with your setup. I did that with Comp and they were great, knew a fair bit about jetboats too(see below)
I'd suggest running CJ rods if you find a set easily. The rod bolts are a good call as well.
I'd personally throw in my vote for the Weiand Stealth intake. I ran that with a 750 edlebrock and it was great.
Don't aim too "low" with that 460, it doesn't take much to really get some good power out of them.
Cheers
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Comp_CAMS.jpg

[Hallett19]

I went with the Weiand Stealth manifold on mine. I decked the block, went with an Isky cam cut specificaly for A pump jet boats and double valve springs and the most important part, Dooley 10 qt pan w/ rear pickup. I would use a standard oil pump as well, dont waste your money on a high flow pump. I used an MSD billet dist and 6AL box with a 6000 rpm rev limiter pill. I have a heavy 20ft Hallett and turn about 5200 rpms through logs and am licking 60mph. I have a 780 vac secondary carb. I use my boat just to party and ski/wakeboard.
Are you going for the gusto or just to get around?

[LakesOnly]

I
C9VE heads (Mild Porting) fresh w/stock valves
1.80 Roller Rockers
CAM is still up in the air...Will match the vlv. springs up w/cam though.
Intake & Carb: CARB is for sure going to be a 750-800 Edelbrock, Intake Torquer or Performer?? Have a line on a Torquer but have read negative information on them??? Some say they have ran both and not noticed a differance and others report otherwise...heh??
Stock Rods with ARP bolt set.
Cast Dish Pistons to net approx. 9.2.1 compression or there abouts. I believe the heads are 72 or 74CC?? Want to be able to run 87 Octane.
Have a line on some water injected TT Basset Headers that I plan on getting.
Have Billet MSD Dizzy.
Comments...Advice, suggestions??
BradYou will not be able to run 87 octane pump gas with your combo and any suitable camshaft and
still make power with an ideal tune, especially with the EdelBROCK carburetor.
#1, first and foremost: dump the EdelBROCK carb fast and get a Holley 850 double pumper, list # 4781. It is not
too big for your jet boat application...460's love a lot of air & fuel.
If you buy the Torker intake, do us all a big favor and take it immediately to the foundry and have them
melt it down. A Weiand Stealth # 8012 will work for your engine and so will a Victor 460; I much prefer
the latter, given the application.
Marine appplication engines are essentially categorized under "severe duty" engine application and while the engine will
run with the OEM valves and cast pistons, just remember that you are better off with 1-piece stainelss valves and
forged pistons. (If you are trying to make the most of an existing passenger car engine and simply porting the heads and
freshening before installing into a jet boat, okay, but start collecting parts for your next time the motor is out
of the boat for a rebuild.)
LO

[LakesOnly]

I would use a standard oil pump as well, dont waste your money on a high flow pump.
Money invested in a HV pump is a wise move, it is not "wasted."
The standard passenger car oil pump works very well in a standard passenger car engine, but I wouldn't
be too quick to dismiss HV oil pumps. Oil pressure is oil pressure, regardless of the gerotor's dimensions used to draw
oil from the pan. And in the case of the 385-Series factory-style oil pump, the excess engine oil that's not needed is
bypassed right back into the rotor's intake side of the pump...so having that increased volume available, if and when needed,
can be a blessing. Especially when you're running your engine at 5000 rpm sustained.
I think that running a high volume oil pump in most jet boat applications is an excellent idea. These engines were originally
intended to be cruising down a smooth asphalt highway at 2200 rpm. Due to the severe abuse of the marine application and
the extended high rpm's, one must rely on the virtues of engine oil a LOT more than during the other real world
applications of these engines.
Engine oil:
lubricates
acts as a cooling agent
acts as a cleaning agent
acts as a seal
is an anti-corrosion inhibitor
often serves as a hydraulic fluid (pressure-backed chain tensioners, hyd lifters, etc.)
aids in cold starting (multi-viscosity knows when to be thin).
Still don't think a good oiling system is important? Try this with two identical engines:
Engine #1) Drain all the coolant from this engine's cooling system but leave the oil in the pan. Start it up and see how long it will run...and run...and run.
Engine #2) Drain all the oil from this engine's oiling system but leave the water in the cooling system. Start it up and see how quickly it grenades. :jawdrop:
Don't cheap on your jet boat motor's oiling system. Not in the pan, not in the pump, not anywhere.
LO

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Dump the cast pistons. Forged are priced reasonable enough not to use them. Summit price on Speed Pro #2404L $335.00 a set. Cheapest insurance money can buy.
Definitely!

[hotbo]

there is nothing wrong with kb hyp.pistons.ring end gap is very important run 2 less timing with these pistons and ive ran them hard for years with and with out nos. but with that said go ahead and buy the forged.:)

[Squirtcha?]

go ahead and buy the forged.
I agree with hotbo and all the others that said to buy the forged.:D

[cudaz101]

Appreciate all the info fellas...This aint my first Rodeo but I would never claim to be an engine builder of any sort...
LO...Will be going with the super soaker oil pump. Thanks for all the info.
So my goal with regard to fuel will be Pump gas and not 87 grade. I CAN get 94 Octane at the pump over here if need be. Just soon not have to mess with fuel I can't get at the fillin' station though. So that is my concern with the Compression and where to aim to stay out of trouble.
Thanks again everyone...
Brad

['78 gt boat]

So on your sig it says you have a '77 Spectra 18 is that true? If it is Paul (Lakes Only) put together a very respectable 460 for my '77 Spectra 18 and we got 57.8mph on gps with three adults and a full tool box at 5000rpm.:D I will say this don't skimp on the oil mods. My block was gone through to make sure that oil pressure would never be a problem as well as a stage 1 Melling oil pump. I think Lakes might have some pics of the build and it is running real strong a little over a year later and it sees the water almost every weekend. I also just had the pump re-built which I found out was the first time since '77 and with I believe an "A" impeller I now am up to 62mph at 4600rpm:D :D Thanks again Lakes for the motor help. Just my .02:idea:

[cudaz101]

So on your sig it says you have a '77 Spectra 18 is that true? If it is Paul (Lakes Only) put together a very respectable 460 for my '77 Spectra 18 and we got 57.8mph on gps with three adults and a full tool box at 5000rpm.:D I will say this don't skimp on the oil mods. My block was gone through to make sure that oil pressure would never be a problem as well as a stage 1 Melling oil pump. I think Lakes might have some pics of the build and it is running real strong a little over a year later and it sees the water almost every weekend. I also just had the pump re-built which I found out was the first time since '77 and with I believe an "A" impeller I now am up to 62mph at 4600rpm:D :D Thanks again Lakes for the motor help. Just my .02:idea:
Yea...Its true I have a boat...Its true that it is a 77 Spectra 18' Jet...Its true I am rebuilding the BBF460 that came in it...Its also true that the block has never been punched....
I have had a few PM's with LO with regard to my build but I have been all over the map with regard to my plans and deciding on one. With that said, I have pretty much all the information I need to decide on a good solid build that will service my needs.
My boat purchased from Todd in Sacramento from the SPAM section of this forum last year.
http://www.zoto.com/cudaz101/img/45/139c04e702a911487c5a86c91fecdefe.jpg
http://www.zoto.com/cudaz101/img/45/963b3e013cfc8531a0d915e781312526.jpg

[LakesOnly]

http://www.zoto.com/cudaz101/img/45/963b3e013cfc8531a0d915e781312526.jpgBrad,
A couple of points: The factory intake in the above photo is downright superior to the aluminum
Torker that you have. If you have the option of choosing between the two, then go with the factory iron intake
pictured above. It's basically a 429 Super Cobra Jet iron intake and offers much more power potential than
both the passenger car iron intake and also the Torker.
You mentioned that you have C9VE heads. If you have a C9VE block with the factory 1969 dished 460 pistons,
then your compression ratio will be around 10.6:1 with the C9VE heads. If you have the later 1973-up
dished pistons (in a D1VE block), then you will have about 9.25:1 with the C9VE heads and the engine will
be fine on pump gas premium. Please post a picture of the top of your pistons for clarification.
We offer race prepped Melling HV oil pumps. The modifications that we excecute reduce drag on the
distributor drive mechansim and thereby reduces oil pump/dizzy drive wear, and also minimizes HP loss due to
the engines internal oil pump drive mechanism. Also, they are modified to have the capacity to deliver more
oil, have quicker off-idle oil pressure increase when the foot throttle is depressed, have our signature
relocated bypass piston (which moves the bypass piston outside of the path of oil), and more.
http://home.earthlink.net/~highflowdynamics/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/stage1pumpinstr.jpg
PM or call if innterested.
78GT, thank you for the props; your build may be found by clicking HERE. (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102414&highlight=)
LO

[cudaz101]

LO....I passed on the Torker Intake having read your advice. As I mentioned I had a LINE on one and passed and now the guy is a lil soar at me for it since I told him I would take it and all...Decided on the Victor Intake as you suggested.
I am not one of those dinks that asks for advice then ignores it and goes on about his ignorant ways...heh
I will eventually be in touch...Would really like to go boating this season...heh
Brad

[Sleeper CP]

I posted earlier about my build and had a plan in mind and got some great advice. Well now that things are in motion plans have been skewed a bit.
Here is what I got so far....
1.80 Roller Rockers
CAM is still up in the air...Will match the vlv. springs up w/cam though.
Intake & Carb: CARB is for sure going to be a 750-800 Edelbrock, Intake Torquer or Performer??
Cast Dish Pistons to net approx. 9.2.1 compression or there abouts. I believe the heads are 72 or 74CC?? Want to be able to run 87 Octane.
Have a line on some water injected TT Basset Headers that I plan on getting.
Have Billet MSD Dizzy.
Comments...Advice, suggestions??
Brad
As someone else said ditch the edel. carb get a Holley 850 DP. Weiand Stealth intake or a FordPower Parts dual plane if you can find one or RPM air gap. I'd also ditch the cast piston's bad idea. Use a Mellings H/Volume oil pump they are inexpensive have a bolt on oil pickup, come blueprinted and most of all the pump shaft is supported on both ends, good Heavy duty piece. Why do you have a set of 1.8 Roller/Rockers with all of your stock parts? Depending on your cam/compression and RPM range the 1.8 rockers might not be your best bet. Stock 1.73 may be better. The 1.8's will require custom push rods and possiably clearenace issues on the ex. push rod tubes.
Are you going to use a Hydrl, or Mech flat tapet cam?
P.S. For intakes you may want to check out BlueThunderAuto.Com . He just updated the website so there areno pictures yet, and if you can get the parts they are good. But maybe a dealer can get you one. Don't give a deposit until they have the part. If it's not in stock you might wait 6 months.

[camoman]

Put your money in the heads;) Port velocity and a good cam combo will get that Ford running:D

[cudaz101]

I pulled the trigger on some parts finally.
From the comp cam grid above I went with the 34-331-4 w/ the suggested lifters & springs.
Weiand Stealth DP intake
750 Edelbrock
Went with the standard sized Hyper pistons so compression should be 9.25:1 as per LO's post "Yes I have the cast dish pistons and its a late 77' block". I know forged is a great way to go but some guys here are having good luck with the Hypers so....
The block never even needed punched and the crank never needed to be turned so its still at stock bore w/only .001 on the crank after being polished. The stock gear was all in good shape and I could have just replaced bearings and ran it for a few seasons. Regardless its gonna be nice to start off fresh and know what I got with some kind of exactness.
Still got alot of money to spend.
Next is a Place diverter and this winter the Pump is gonna get worked over.
Thanks again for all the information fellas!!
Brad

[IndianaTahiti]

there is nothing wrong with kb hyp.pistons.ring end gap is very important run 2 less timing with these pistons and ive ran them hard for years with and with out nos. but with that said go ahead and buy the forged.:)
how much nos did you run? what kind of timing did you run?

[058]

I know forged is a great way to go but some guys here are having good luck with the Hypers so....
Thanks again for all the information fellas!!
BradWhy would you chance your engine to "luck" for a savings of $74.91, the cost of forged over cast? :confused: [May-June 2007 Summit catalog] If you have ever seen the destruction a hyper piston can do when it reaches it's threshold you would think twice about using them. JMO

[hotbo]

how much nos did you run? what kind of timing did you run?
i have run 150 on mine.going to run 200.if you call kb tech dept.they can give you all the specs and info you need.they have hyp.pistons running up to 500 shots on them.its all in the builder engine managment controls timing retard and so forth.
they told me to run 2 degress less than a forged piston.so my bbc is totaled at 34. and my digital 6box with a single step retard is got -4 in it so im 30 when i mash the button and my plugs are pretty and no problems.
the biggest killer of these pistons is not nos its the fools building the mills.RING END GAP IS THE MAJOR CUASE OF ALL FAILURES:idea: do as kb states and you will be good to go.guarantee:D
i have a 406 with them in there running 250 shot in a truck with 28 degress total on the bottle no problems.3 years now.
468 9.1 motor 4 years 150.going to 200.30 total no problems
468 11.1 32 total timing no problems 2 years.
ring gap and timing are the major down fall of hyp pistons.do not be afraid of these pistons if you take the time to research what you are doing.do not put nos on pistons that ring gap is not filed for it will generally pull the top ring land off seen this happen several times.
:D :jawdrop:

[hotbo]

Why would you chance your engine to "luck" for a savings of $74.91, the cost of forged over cast? :confused: [May-June 2007 Summit catalog] If you have ever seen the destruction a hyper piston can do when it reaches it's threshold you would think twice about using them. JMO
what you seen imo is idiots building mills and not taking the time or know how to deal with the hyp.:idea:
im not going to argue that they are better than forged anyday cuase they are not.:D
research what you are doing and are going to do with the hyp.and they will last along time.if you build a mill for naturall set ring end gaps up for that and later put nos and take no timing out bye bye little pistons.kaboom:eek:
speed pro forged are cheap forged pistons they are not much more than the kb hyp.they are good forged pistons so for the difference you might as well buy the forged.but if you get a deal on some kb like i can you.then i buy the kbs and have had great luck with them for several years now.
the pistons that the machine shops show you that are hyp and scattered ar e 9-10 times the fools fualt who run the mill and done things to it that they knew nothing about in the first place.:D

[hotbo]

I pulled the trigger on some parts finally.
From the comp cam grid above I went with the 34-331-4 w/ the suggested lifters & springs.
Weiand Stealth DP intake
750 Edelbrock
Went with the standard sized Hyper pistons so compression should be 9.25:1 as per LO's post "Yes I have the cast dish pistons and its a late 77' block". I know forged is a great way to go but some guys here are having good luck with the Hypers so....
The block never even needed punched and the crank never needed to be turned so its still at stock bore w/only .001 on the crank after being polished. The stock gear was all in good shape and I could have just replaced bearings and ran it for a few seasons. Regardless its gonna be nice to start off fresh and know what I got with some kind of exactness.
Still got alot of money to spend.
Next is a Place diverter and this winter the Pump is gonna get worked over.
Thanks again for all the information fellas!!
Brad
i like your cam and intake choice but hate the edelbrock carbs wisht you the best and it will run good and strong for you.later trav.

[Squirtcha?]

Why would you chance your engine to "luck" for a savings of $74.91,
the cost of forged over cast?
im not going to argue that they are better than forged anyday cuase they are not.:D
for the difference you might as well buy the forged.
Amen
Running Speedpro Forged dished pistons in my 460. 9.5:1 compression with Edelbrock Performer
RPM heads 75cc chambers and a 150 shot of nitrous. I've got six years of hard (very hard) running
on them and still going strong. Too many bottles through it to count.
I agree with the ring end gap for nitrous by the way. Also..........If you're gonna run the juice, I'd suggest
buying the best rings you can find. Mine are Total Seal and cost as much as the pistons did.
Whoops..........also agree about the carb deal. The Holleys are a cinch to work on. Not sure about
the Edelbrocks as I've never had one apart before.

[OverKill]

Well to be honest with you. You should get rid of the FORD and get a Chevy. Reason Being the Ford weighs to much and forces the back end down forcing you to hit ROCK BARS. Just asK Squirtcha?

[dmontzsta]

Well to be honest with you. You should get rid of the FORD and get a Chevy. Reason Being the Ford weighs to much and forces the back end down forcing you to hit ROCK BARS. Just asK Squirtcha?
Doesnt the BBF weigh around 30lbs less than a BBC? :) I know I read that somewhere.
While the motor is apart, I would put forged in there, the price is nothing compared to piece of mind.

[cudaz101]

I will never be running NOS...They Hyp. pistons should be just fine with my application and needs. Shit...The stocker cast pistons that came in it in 77 still look fine...heh
Went with the Edelbrock because I have used both and prefer the plug and play of the Edelbrock unit. I do have an 800cfm Holley to try on if I want to though. Will see
Thanks again..
Brad