Best 6.5" round speaker?

[DRJZ1974]

I want to replace the 6.5" arch speakers on my 38' Regal cruiser boat. What is the best marine speaker to replace these with? I am definitely willing to spend the extra money for the best set. I also have a pair of Infinity 6000m speakers that are going to be mounted on the front of the bow from the lower railing. I am having an amp installed too to help drive them.

[Magic34]

My last boat (34' cat) I ran 6.5" coax Focal speakers. They were awesome and I had tot tow the boat through some storms without the cover, no damage to the speakers, although i did have billet speaker covers with screens, but they still got wet sometimes.
My new boat is a 370SS Formula and I am installing only 3 pairs in this boat and putting about 800 watts to them. In my cat I had 4 pairs and for the cruiser, 3 pairs is more than enough for a very loud and CLEAR sound. The 4 pairs of Focal were louder and more clear than 6 pairs of MB Quart with more power.
I am running the Focal without question, as it is one of the best I have ever owned, and I have tried a ton of different stuff (MB Quart, Rockford, JL, Diamond).

[Partycattin]

I've had better luck with speakers that have Poly(plastic) as the woofer material versus paper. The paper seems to get brittle quick in the heat and with a little power, they end up tearing. Infinity makes a lot of Poly speakers. They usually hold up well and sound good.

[rivercrazy]

I have a mix of Infinity and JBL speakers in my boat. They are not too bright. Just accurate and very well balanced.
Personally, I've demo'd and heard a lot of speakers out there. Personally, I like the JBL C608GTi's the best. Very accurate, more mid bass than any 6.5" speaker I've ever heard, and very detailed smooth and accurate highs. And they take a crap load of power. 150watts RMS!

[707dog]

i personaly like and run KICKER in my boat and truck never gave me any probs and are really clear!!

[rivercrazy]

You must have the only pair of Infinity speakers ever made that are not too bright. ;)
I invite you to hear my system sometime. Not the loudest on the river but very very clean. Runner up in a Shockwave regatta and top 3 in one of the OP6 events

[rivercrazy]

It would be nice to meet you. Hopefully we will make it down to Parker sometime before the end of the season, maybe for the weekend of 9/21

[Mr. Naudio]

I invite you to hear my system sometime. Not the loudest on the river but very very clean. Runner up in a Shockwave regatta and top 3 in one of the OP6 events
I think the guy that won in 2006 has got Focal
the Diamond D9s have some good midbass as well and BAs and well the best ones out there by far and away are whatever ones that sound the way you like they are all a little different.IMO

[thmper321]

Opinions are like a** holes, everyboday has one. All the above mentioned spekers are good for boats. It all depends on what you want to spend. I do recommend metal dome tweeters in a boat because of it being an open environment and because of that low and high frequencies suffer greatly. Soft dome tweeters tend to be more accurate but can't play as high in the frequency range as a metal dome.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

My last boat (34' cat) I ran 6.5" coax Focal speakers. They were awesome and I had tot tow the boat through some storms without the cover, no damage to the speakers, although i did have billet speaker covers with screens, but they still got wet sometimes.).
Focal are kick ass!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dub C]

Opinions are like a** holes, everyboday has one. All the above mentioned spekers are good for boats. It all depends on what you want to spend. I do recommend metal dome tweeters in a boat because of it being an open environment and because of that low and high frequencies suffer greatly. Soft dome tweeters tend to be more accurate but can't play as high in the frequency range as a metal dome.
agreed, and for midbass the enclosure it's in is EVERYTHING highs don't need an enclosure and will perform with or without and are only diminished by the open air enviorment and also dispersion pattern is important. think of it like a sprinkler head, some are very directional and sound well off axis and some are very non-directional and will sound very good not directly aimed. a good trick is to reflect them off a windshield and this can yield good results if done properly with a very directional tweeter. For mids a good sealed area or baffles work. a cool trick is using aperiodic membranes, think of a cylinder shaped enclosure with one end having a speaker and one end having a foam plug and the density of the foam can control the resonant frequency/tonal qualities. this works really well with minimal space when done properly.

[BadKachina]

My last boat (34' cat) I ran 6.5" coax Focal speakers. They were awesome and I had tot tow the boat through some storms without the cover, no damage to the speakers, although i did have billet speaker covers with screens, but they still got wet sometimes.
My new boat is a 370SS Formula and I am installing only 3 pairs in this boat and putting about 800 watts to them. In my cat I had 4 pairs and for the cruiser, 3 pairs is more than enough for a very loud and CLEAR sound. The 4 pairs of Focal were louder and more clear than 6 pairs of MB Quart with more power.
I am running the Focal without question, as it is one of the best I have ever owned, and I have tried a ton of different stuff (MB Quart, Rockford, JL, Diamond).
Focal is as good as it gets. You could argue there are some at their level, but most stuff isn't even close. I run Focal Utopia's in my boat, at 1k per pair and worth every penny of it.;)

[Froggystyle]

I have used, installed and listened to the gamut of the available speakers, and found that once you got to a certain level, they all sounded great, but with different character...
The last boat I built before Trident used Infinity Kappa Perfects without crossovers. The crossovers in the Infinity gear are by far the weakest links, and lose a lot of efficiency and rob power. I used a discrete amp signal to do away with them and improved clarity and volume considerably.
I have installed Focal's in the past as well, and they always struck me as boutique-ish... expensive without the payoff. They sound great, but as good as many other premium speakers for a lot more money. Diamond Hex, MB Quartz etc... All have premium sound quality, but lacked DB in similar installs to my current favorites...
Speakers need to have a carefull balance of SPL and SQ... Sound pressure level and Sound Quality. In a boat, it is hugely rare to be able to hear the difference in any situation other than on the trailer in your garage, and so nuance is often right out the door. A better compromise is durability and SPL in a boat, as you can crank louder with less THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) but you give up a bit of clarity.
In a boat, at the river you need SPL. Loud, clear, durable and efficient. I have looked long and hard at the best application for our boats and come up with two brands... Zapco and Exile.
Zapco makes a phenomenal speaker, with carbon fiber cones, metal tweeters and butyl rubber surrounds. Water-resistant, warm, efficient and very, very loud. At under $750 per pair retail they mark a great bargain for truly premium audio components. They are my no-holds barred first choice for marine.
Exile is a new brand designed by the original designers for Phoenix Gold back in the 90's. One of the best US audio houses, they made competition crushing stuff back in the day, and now continue that as Exile. PG started going sideways about two years ago and the original folks left and started Exile as a result. At $350 per pair, it represents the best value on high end speakers with poly cones, butyl rubber surrounds and composite tweeters. Very durable, not as loud or clear as the Zapco's, but I haven't found anything that is frankly. I will probably run these components in boats with more middle of the road audio requirements. I have them in my truck, and they are really great sounding.
To each their own, but for a boat I don't think Zapco has an equal.

[Tom Brown]

Personally, I like the JBL C608GTi's the best. Very accurate, more mid bass than any 6.5" speaker I've ever heard, and very detailed smooth and accurate highs.
Right on. Let's have a look at your RTA data, reverse null graphs, etc. :cool:
What is the best marine speaker to replace these with?
The question is not entirely valid, in the same way it's not valid to talk about what the best prop is. While some props are better than others, the absolute best prop will vary not only from boat model/engine combination, but it will even vary from individual setup to individual setup... not to mention the type of boating it needs to do.
With speakers, it's much the same. The response curve of a speaker will vary wildly depending on what axis the measurement is taken on, with respect to the firing direction of the driver, and also on a number of other acoustic factors from the enclosure and mount to the type of materials in the listening space. I suppose you could throw in that thing we like to call taste, too.
I've been to a number of DIY audio shows and learned a surprising chunk of information from doing so. One of the things that has become crystal clear is that people will hear what they see. Aluminum or titanium dome speakers sound brighter than doped cloth tweeters, regardless of the response curve. At least, this holds true when the listener can see the speaker and the glint of the tweeter. When a double blind listening test is done, this changes and it would seem to become impossible to distinguish driver material choices of well executed designs.
When I built my last pair of speakers, I went with a Hyquophon tweeter over a 26 dollar GR-Research chinese tweeter that puts out remarkably similar response and everyone agrees sounds light years better than it has a right to for it's cost and station in the audio world. I've always loved the sweetness of the Hyquophon but have wondered if I wasted several hundred dollars on the exclusive danish tweeters.
Drivers do make a difference but they aren't the entire sound equation, by a long shot. Are these speakers going to be mounted free-air, infinite baffle, bass reflex, closed box,... what?
I like Focal a lot, in the acoustic suspension world. You're probably working with something closer to free-air in which case I have no knowledge or opinion.

[Froggystyle]

Right on. Let's have a look at your RTA data, reverse null graphs, etc. :cool:
The question is not entirely valid, in the same way it's not valid to talk about what the best prop is. While some props are better than others, the absolute best prop will vary not only from boat model/engine combination, but it will even vary from individual setup to individual setup... not to mention the type of boating it needs to do.
With speakers, it's much the same. The response curve of a speaker will vary wildly depending on what axis the measurement is taken on, with respect to the firing direction of the driver, and also on a number of other acoustic factors from the enclosure and mount to the type of materials in the listening space. I suppose you could throw in that thing we like to call taste, too.
I've been to a number of DIY audio shows and learned a surprising chunk of information from doing so. One of the things that has become crystal clear is that people will hear what they see. Aluminum or titanium dome speakers sound brighter than doped cloth tweeters, regardless of the response curve. At least, this holds true when the listener can see the speaker and the glint of the tweeter. When a double blind listening test is done, this changes and it would seem to become impossible to distinguish driver material choices of well executed designs.
When I built my last pair of speakers, I went with a Hyquophon tweeter over a 26 dollar GR-Research chinese tweeter that puts out remarkably similar response and everyone agrees sounds light years better than it has a right to for it's cost and station in the audio world. I've always loved the sweetness of the Hyquophon but have wondered if I wasted several hundred dollars on the exclusive danish tweeters.
Drivers do make a difference but they aren't the entire sound equation, by a long shot. Are these speakers going to be mounted free-air, infinite baffle, bass reflex, closed box,... what?
I like Focal a lot, in the acoustic suspension world. You're probably working with something closer to free-air in which case I have no knowledge or opinion.
What he said...
More importantly in a lot of respects, as is so often the case... is optimizing what you have.
Build an enclosure for ANY high quality mid that you put in your boat and it will sound better, clearer and more punchy than an absolutely premier speaker with no enclosure. Add an enclosure to a premium speaker and you are out of the park.
Don't get me wrong... I love Focal's in luxury automobiles. If you were asking what to put in your Benzo that would be my recommendation for image reasons if nothing else... make the install appropriate and all that... In a boat, there are mitigating factors that nullify the advantage the Focal's have over others, and put clear SPL leaders in front for marine use.
There is nothing like a noisy free-air environment to make you appreciate speaker area, efficiency and wattage.

[Tom Brown]

I love Focal's in luxury automobiles.
I should point out that I have no experience with Focal in a boat environment. I don't have a lot of experience with them in the car environment, either.
I mostly work with their stuff in home audio.
There is nothing like a noisy free-air environment to make you appreciate speaker area, efficiency and wattage.
This sounds like really good advice to me.
I'm going to bow out of this thread since I'm a short on expertise in boat audio. Good luck DRJZ1974.

[Legal Chemistry]

I'm curious, for the midbass, what type of enclosure do you recommend (ie. small "box", baffles, something else.)? I have various components that I'm waiting to put it, and am curious to the difference between the typical infinite baffle vs. enclosed. I believe the speakers I have come specs for enclosure volumes -but never really thought about it.

[Froggystyle]

I'm curious, for the midbass, what type of enclosure do you recommend (ie. small "box", baffles, something else.)? I have various components that I'm waiting to put it, and am curious to the difference between the typical infinite baffle vs. enclosed. I believe the speakers I have come specs for enclosure volumes -but never really thought about it.
For mid-bass, I use a vented enclosure that has about 1/2" of space around the entire speaker. It looks about the same size and shape as a tupperware container, which strangely enough was my "plug" to build the part from.
I have even used tupperware in car installs. It works great, and really does a great job too.

[rivercrazy]

Most of the 6.5" speaker mfg's recommend a sealed 1/3 cubic foot box for seperates.
I've done this a few times, according to this recommendation. The difference is output and accuracy is pretty significant.

[rivercrazy]

All Passive crossovers, included with seperates, will consume some power. Its just the way it is. Infinity and JBL crossovers are as good or better than anyone elses.
Like Wes said though if you want to maximize your system's potential, active crossovers are a good investment.

[Froggystyle]

All Passive crossovers, included with seperates, will consume some power. Its just the way it is. Infinity and JBL crossovers are as good or better than anyone elses.
Like Wes said though if you want to maximize your system's potential, active crossovers are a good investment.
Infinity crossovers were the reason I switched to digital in the first place. I would have them actually grenade when running at high volume with high heat in my last boat. You had to pull apart the entire interior to get to them, as they are inevitably buried in the build and it was a royal pain in the ass.
We may run some passive crossovers in our lower priced systems in the future, but all crossovers will be co-located somewhere you can get to them with ease.
Nice suprise when you finally get your panels off to see the inside of capacitors have blown the teal green covers off the crossovers and all over the inside of your gunwales. :D

[Legal Chemistry]

I have even used tupperware in car installs. It works great, and really does a great job too.
Thanks, I'll give that a shot. That should also help in keeping the moisture to a minimum.

[rivercrazy]

Infinity crossovers were the reason I switched to digital in the first place. I would have them actually grenade when running at high volume with high heat in my last boat. You had to pull apart the entire interior to get to them, as they are inevitably buried in the build and it was a royal pain in the ass.
We may run some passive crossovers in our lower priced systems in the future, but all crossovers will be co-located somewhere you can get to them with ease.
Nice suprise when you finally get your panels off to see the inside of capacitors have blown the teal green covers off the crossovers and all over the inside of your gunwales. :D
Thankfully, after 5 hard summers of use, I've not experienced the same situation. I've been running an amp putting out a maximum of 150 watts RMS to 2 pairs.

[Tom Brown]

I was going to exit this thread, wasn't I.
I'd like to mention that a crossover works in concert ( :D ) with it's drivers to form a circuit. If you change the driver, you change the circuit... in a big way.
A passive crossover network can be designed to handle huge quanities of induction current... or it can be designed so the current isn't that high. It all varies with the values of the components chosen.
Active crossovers are great for sheer efficiency and so are probably superior for a boat or car but I'd rather have a well designed passive crossover network in my home speakers for sheer accuracy.

[Froggystyle]

Thankfully, after 5 hard summers of use, I've not experienced the same situation. I've been running an amp putting out a maximum of 150 watts RMS to 2 pairs.
Yeah, I might have been running a bit higher than that... :D
Like, 150 per channel to two pairs. Clean power, but running them against the wall for sure.
By switching to active, we picked up 5 db and got a huge noticeable difference in clarity and volume. No more blown crossovers either.

[rivercrazy]

Yeah, I might have been running a bit higher than that... :D
Like, 150 per channel to two pairs. Clean power, but running them against the wall for sure.
By switching to active, we picked up 5 db and got a huge noticeable difference in clarity and volume. No more blown crossovers either.
That is an impressive DB gain. More than twice as loud! Do passive crossovers really absorb that much power from an amp?
The Infinity Perfects are rated for 100 watts RMS. The JBL C608GTi are rated for 150 watts. Comparing the crossovers supplied by the MFG look pretty similar but not sure if they really are the same.

[Tom Brown]

Do passive crossovers really absorb that much power from an amp?
It depends on how they are designed but... basically... yes.
It's easier for a network filter to deliver different frequencies to different drivers. There are designs that allow signal frequencies above a certain point to flow more easily to one driver and signal frequencies below a certain point to more easily flow to another driver.
In this case, the crossover filter network will not have to dissipate as much signal as it would if there is an independent crossover filter for each driver.
In the case of putting a capacitor on a tweeter, bass energy the tweeter isn't receiving is being absorbed in the capacitor and radiated as heat. If you were to remove the capacitor, you would find your tweeter will get really hot. The power has to go somewhere.
The Infinity Perfects are rated for 100 watts RMS. The JBL C608GTi are rated for 150 watts. Comparing the crossovers supplied by the MFG look pretty similar but not sure if they really are the same.
The capacity of the components is not the only factor in determining a crossover network's ability to handle power. The value of the components has a lot to do with it too.
In a 6dB Butterworth crossover design, it's pretty straight forward. You have a crossover point and all frequencies above or below (depending on the configuration of low or high pass) are basically shorted out. That is to say, signal at those frequencies is provided an easier return path than through the speaker. In this case, the crossover has to dissipate all of that energy. Still, the crossover point will largely determine how much power the filter network has to dissipate.
With a 12dB crossover (2 step ladder), the amount of energy each component has to dissipate is different again. 18dB would be your 3 step and 24 dB would be your 4 step ladder. ..... at least in a Butterworth design.
In other words, the number of turns on the inductors, as well as the value of the capacitors has a huge impact on the amount of power the filter is required to dissipate.... the power rating of the components has an impact on the amount of power the filter can dissipate.
With an active crossover, the same principles apply but it's all done on such low power signal that energy dissipation is not much of a problem.
The benefit of an active crossover is that downstream of the active filter, the amplifier doesn't have to amplify a bunch of signal that is only going to be absorbed by the crossover filter. That means less work and energy required of the amp... and no need to short out a bunch of unused signal at line levels in front of the speaker. It's a far, far more efficient way to go. ... but brings with it other problems that can be relevant in some situations.

[Dave C]

Rivercrazy and Froggy... thanks for the tips on the sealed enclosures. I think I need to do this.
I have 4 focals in free air and always knew something wasn't quite right with the midbass. :eek:
now if I can only figure out how to attach them to the back of the panel ;)
Most of the 6.5" speaker mfg's recommend a sealed 1/3 cubic foot box for seperates.
I've done this a few times, according to this recommendation. The difference is output and accuracy is pretty significant.

[rivercrazy]

It depends on how they are designed but... basically... yes.
It's easier for a network filter to deliver different frequencies to different drivers. There are designs that allow signal frequencies above a certain point to flow more easily to one driver and signal frequencies below a certain point to more easily flow to another driver.
In this case, the crossover filter network will not have to dissipate as much signal as it would if there is an independent crossover filter for each driver.
In the case of putting a capacitor on a tweeter, bass energy the tweeter isn't receiving is being absorbed in the capacitor and radiated as heat. If you were to remove the capacitor, you would find your tweeter will get really hot. The power has to go somewhere.
The capacity of the components is not the only factor in determining a crossover network's ability to handle power. The value of the components has a lot to do with it too.
In a 6dB Butterworth crossover design, it's pretty straight forward. You have a crossover point and all frequencies above or below (depending on the configuration of low or high pass) are basically shorted out. That is to say, signal at those frequencies is provided an easier return path than through the speaker. In this case, the crossover has to dissipate all of that energy. Still, the crossover point will largely determine how much power the filter network has to dissipate.
With a 12dB crossover (2 step ladder), the amount of energy each component has to dissipate is different again. 18dB would be your 3 step and 24 dB would be your 4 step ladder. ..... at least in a Butterworth design.
In other words, the number of turns on the inductors, as well as the value of the capacitors has a huge impact on the amount of power the filter is required to dissipate.... the power rating of the components has an impact on the amount of power the filter can dissipate.
With an active crossover, the same principles apply but it's all done on such low power signal that energy dissipation is not much of a problem.
The benefit of an active crossover is that downstream of the active filter, the amplifier doesn't have to amplify a bunch of signal that is only going to be absorbed by the crossover filter. That means less work and energy required of the amp... and no need to short out a bunch of unused signal at line levels in front of the speaker. It's a far, far more efficient way to go. ... but brings with it other problems that can be relevant in some situations.
Wow dude thanks for the explaination! BTW - you sound like my Dad who is an electrical engineer....I understand the basic big picture view but not all the details....

[Tom Brown]

Rivercrazy and Froggy... thanks for the tips on the sealed enclosures. I think I need to do this.
I've used XTC foam baffles in the past. They work OK.
I can't say how they would perform compared to a tupperware container.... no idea but I'll share a link, in case you find the idea interesting.
The foam is pretty soft. That will raise the Q of the driver, which isn't necessarily the best thing. .... but it's also quite porous which would reduce the amplitude of the rear wave, which is definitely a good thing.
Again.... I'm not recommending them specifically and I'm not recommending them over the plastic container idea (I've never tried it). I'm just saying I've used them and thought they were OK.
XTC foam baffles (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-788)

[BadKachina]

It depends on how they are designed but... basically... yes.
It's easier for a network filter to deliver different frequencies to different drivers. There are designs that allow signal frequencies above a certain point to flow more easily to one driver and signal frequencies below a certain point to more easily flow to another driver.
In this case, the crossover filter network will not have to dissipate as much signal as it would if there is an independent crossover filter for each driver.
In the case of putting a capacitor on a tweeter, bass energy the tweeter isn't receiving is being absorbed in the capacitor and radiated as heat. If you were to remove the capacitor, you would find your tweeter will get really hot. The power has to go somewhere.
The capacity of the components is not the only factor in determining a crossover network's ability to handle power. The value of the components has a lot to do with it too.
In a 6dB Butterworth crossover design, it's pretty straight forward. You have a crossover point and all frequencies above or below (depending on the configuration of low or high pass) are basically shorted out. That is to say, signal at those frequencies is provided an easier return path than through the speaker. In this case, the crossover has to dissipate all of that energy. Still, the crossover point will largely determine how much power the filter network has to dissipate.
With a 12dB crossover (2 step ladder), the amount of energy each component has to dissipate is different again. 18dB would be your 3 step and 24 dB would be your 4 step ladder. ..... at least in a Butterworth design.
In other words, the number of turns on the inductors, as well as the value of the capacitors has a huge impact on the amount of power the filter is required to dissipate.... the power rating of the components has an impact on the amount of power the filter can dissipate.
With an active crossover, the same principles apply but it's all done on such low power signal that energy dissipation is not much of a problem.
The benefit of an active crossover is that downstream of the active filter, the amplifier doesn't have to amplify a bunch of signal that is only going to be absorbed by the crossover filter. That means less work and energy required of the amp... and no need to short out a bunch of unused signal at line levels in front of the speaker. It's a far, far more efficient way to go. ... but brings with it other problems that can be relevant in some situations.
Nice post Tom. Lots of good info.
Here's another thought to ponder. On my Focal Utopias, I'm running bridged 4 channel Fosgate Power 800's. So bridged they are about 500 watts per channel at 4 ohms. That allows me to have enough power for each set of mids to keep the gains at a minimun level and keep the distortion to a minimum.
The bad part is that when I first built the system I was destroying my tweeter crossovers and blowing tweeters left and right. I'm still running the Focal tn 51 tweeters but I had to go to a third order crossover with some resistors because the tweeter couldn't handle the power. I also ran two sets so that the tweeters are 8 ohm, to help handle the load. So one amp has two sets on it and the other has no tweeters on it. This made a huge difference in reliability. As for building my crossovers I have some audiophile nerds that deal in home audio build them for me. I have no idea how they come up with the stuff they come up with.
On Infinity crossovers, I have a set of Kappa's in my truck, that were in a customers boat but kept throwing his amp into protection mode. I put them in my truck with a JL amp and wouldn't you know it, same thing. I switched the crossovers out for some old Focal crossovers I had stashed for a rainy day and no more problems.
Those Infinity's gave me fits, in the boat and in my truck. I guess the amps were seeing a short when they would get too hot or the volume level got too loud. What a pos they are (the crossovers). The speakers themselves actually sound pretty decent and look well made though.

[Dave C]

thanks
I've used XTC foam baffles in the past. They work OK.
I can't say how they would perform compared to a tupperware container.... no idea but I'll share a link, in case you find the idea interesting.
The foam is pretty soft. That will raise the Q of the driver, which isn't necessarily the best thing. .... but it's also quite porous which would reduce the amplitude of the rear wave, which is definitely a good thing.
Again.... I'm not recommending them specifically and I'm not recommending them over the plastic container idea (I've never tried it). I'm just saying I've used them and thought they were OK.
XTC foam baffles (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-788)

[Froggystyle]

That is an impressive DB gain. More than twice as loud! Do passive crossovers really absorb that much power from an amp?
The Infinity Perfects are rated for 100 watts RMS. The JBL C608GTi are rated for 150 watts. Comparing the crossovers supplied by the MFG look pretty similar but not sure if they really are the same.
It isn't actually twice as loud, that is a misconception. It is considerably louder, but on an "A" weighted scale 92 is not twice as loud as 87. It is noticiably louder though.
Up near 150db, a 5 db gain does amount to nearly double the volume, as the exponential scale goes nearly vertical there. At 120 however, which was what the boat was earlier, the 5 db gain to 125 is considerable enough to really be heard. More important was the clarity and drive gain.

[Froggystyle]

On the subject of the tupperware enclosure... That is an easy fix, that I guarantee will help your sound. There are better enclosure designs by a lot, but none easier. Take your speaker to the store and find a Tupperware/Rubbermaid bowl that has a lip at the same location as your mounting screws. When you through-bolt the speaker, sandwich the tupperware lid between the nut/washer and the back of the panel they are being mounted to. You may have to make a cut in the lip of the plastic to allow the lip to sit flat where you drill it.
I put some dynamat on the back side of the bucket to add a little density and to keep it from oil-canning under load. It is also vented on the bottom and top with about a 1" hole to allow condensation to escape and water to drain if humidity has its way with your boat. Nothing worse than creating a bucket for electronics to sit in unless it is truly totally sealed.

[rivercrazy]

It isn't actually twice as loud, that is a misconception. It is considerably louder, but on an "A" weighted scale 92 is not twice as loud as 87. It is noticiably louder though.
Up near 150db, a 5 db gain does amount to nearly double the volume, as the exponential scale goes nearly vertical there. At 120 however, which was what the boat was earlier, the 5 db gain to 125 is considerable enough to really be heard. More important was the clarity and drive gain.
The decibal scale is logarithmic.
A 10 decibal increase is 10X as intense. Increase the db's another 10db's and its 100 times as intense. Add another 10db's to the base number and its 1000 as intense. An example:
* 100db base number
110 db's is 10 times more intense than 100 db's
120 db's is 100 times more intense than 100 db's
130 db's is 1000 times more intense than 100 db's
An increase of 100 to 103 db's is 3 times as intense.
Applying this scale to humans is difficult due to significant differences from one set of ears to another and the fact that human ears amplify certain frequencies (typically 1000hz to 4000hz).
It takes twice as much power to equal a 3db gain. Those passive crossovers must absorb a butt load of power...........

[Tom Brown]

An increase of 100 to 103 db's is 3 times as intense.
I assume this is a typo.
It takes twice as much power to equal a 3db gain.
3 dB is a notation for doubling a value. 10 dB is 10x times, just as you have outlined.
Your post misrepresents the gains of sound pressure increases. Psycho acousticians have determined that human sound perception is approximately logarithmic in nature. That means, a 10 fold increase in sound pressure will be perceived as approximately a doubling by the people listening, exactly as Froggystyle indicated.

[rivercrazy]

I assume this is a typo.
3 dB is a notation for doubling a value. 10 dB is 10x times, just as you have outlined.
Your post misrepresents the gains of sound pressure increases. Psycho acousticians have determined that human sound perception is approximately logarithmic in nature. That means, a 10 fold increase in sound pressure will be perceived as approximately a doubling by the people listening, exactly as Froggystyle indicated.
Your right. I meant to say an increase of 3db's from 100 to 103 decibels is 3X as intense.
My post focuses on the science of sound "intensity" not SPL heard through the human ear.

[Beer-30]

Yeowch!
http://www.woofersetc.com/images/products/4312.jpg
Focal Kit N°7 - Focal Utopia Be 6.5" 3 Way Component System
3-way,6-1/2" (16,5cm) "W" woofer, 3" (8cm) "W" midrange, 1" (2,5cm) Beryllium tweeter
Frequency response (+/- 3 dB): 55 Hz - 40 kHz
Nom. power handling: 100 W
Sensitivity (2,83V/1 m): 89 dB
Nom. Impedance: 4 ohms
Voice Coil Diameter: 40 et 25 mm
Voice Coil Height: 17 et 8 mm
Xmax: 5,5 mm
This system is also available as N°7 Active version (without Crossblock filter)
Our Price: $4,165.99

[Tom Brown]

Your right. I meant to say an increase of 3db's from 100 to 103 decibels is 3X as intense.
In this case, you are incorrect.
Sound pressure doubles every 3 dB.

[rivercrazy]

In this case, you are incorrect.
Sound pressure doubles every 3 dB.
Not really. The definition of "intensity" as it pertains to measuring db's is different than "SPL" per the human ear.

[Froggystyle]

I have gone around and around on this subject for years with regard to live music on stage, muffler DB on vehicles like cars and boats, audio systems in show cars and now on the Trident we have pretty much analyzed all three aspects in an attempt to
A) project sound out of the boat (live acoustic reinforcement)
B) quieted the exhaust below legal levels without mufflers and
C) gained db and clarity with our premium sound system without sacrificing efficiency (power is heavy in this case) or durability (120+ degree ambient temps in amp compartment)
All science aside, I have done a lot of "seat of the pants" testing with a db meter sitting in front of me. I have re-routed exhaust through a two 90 degree turn path and dropped 4 db. No really noticeable sound loss IMO, but definitely a "smoother" sound that took some of the brisance out of the exhaust note. Still rattles windows, but dropped it from 91 db to 87. Certainly not half of the noise by any stretch. From my perspective, it was about 10% less "violent" sounding.
At level 28 on our audio system we run about 121db. You can't talk. You can't really even yell to communicate. You can however nod your head emphatically and mouth the words "Bad Ass" effectively. At 32, the gain on the subs really starts banging hard and is up on it's efficiency curve and you have a significant gain in overall volume. I would say it goes up 20%. Maybe 30%. The db goes to 127 however, defying all standard conventional analysis, which would indicate that it quadrupled in impact and SPL.
The difference between closing the doors on my truck and opening them is 4 db with all 4 12's killing it. No gain in power, just enclosure type essentially. You can't hear the difference in the car however. Certainly not twice the noise.
On stage, it is far more profound. Really good live venues will try to keep the db under 110 right in front of the sound board. Anything else is considered too loud to enjoy for a normal live event. Full bore concerts aside, most cool little joints will adhere to this unspoken rule. I could easily provide that level of sound with my two 2x12" ADA quarter stacks driven by dual Rocktron Velocity 250 power amps, but never do. Instead, I point my speakers in towards the band and use them for monitors and let the house guys mic my cabs to create the house sound. I promise you that 110 from my amps is thin and weak and quiet compared to 110 from the house. Plus, the house usually has far higher quality speakers and amps, and spreads them out all over the club usually. The more sound you project back to that board from your rig, the quieter they will turn your "good sound" down to accomplish the 110 mix. My point is simple, 110 is not 110. More speakers making 110 is a hell of a lot "louder" to the ear than fewer.
I guess what I am saying is that the only aspect of this I really don't understand is this whole doubling of sound every 3 db. I never hear it, not even close. Light tuning, in the applicable case here being removal of passive crossovers has always netted greater than 3 db gains for me when actually put to the meter, and never had a subsequent battery draw or pure volume gain as is outlined by the fuzzy math of the logarithmic curve.
If someone gets this better than I do, please jump in and explain it better... my knowledge is anectodal and experience based, not scientific.

[kap]

Ummmm Pardon the Interruption:
I have been waiting patiently for the electronics dialogue to die down.
Well which one's ie... 6.5 speakers are the best---sound good----good price and durable to put in a boat???
Brand and model number would be helpful---EX. not just Focal what type of Focal.
Froggy:
I love Zapco amps the best in car or truck----- but do not know anything about their speakers for marine application. Care to comment.
KAP

[Beer-30]

I would not be afraid of these:
I run their 6X9s in the same series:
ECLIPSE SE-8365
http://www.eclipse-web.com/integrated/image/se8365.jpg
OR, they aparently have gotten into the marine industry:
ECLIPSE SM-6500
http://www.eclipse-web.com/integrated/image/sm6500pic.jpg

[Tom Brown]

Not really.
Really.
Yes, I have studied the heightened sensitivity of the upper midrange band on the human ear but do not profess to be an expert in this matter.
Here are some links that will help you understand the decibel scale.
Here's a little grade 12 physics you may find helpful with regard to sound pressure.
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/CLASS/sound/u11l2b.html
Here's something a little more practical. You will find the figure on the right most interesting. It clearly states that doubling the power brings an increase of 3 dB in sound intensitity level.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html
Extensive psycho acoustic work has been published in AES (audio engineering society) journals over the years. I'm no longer a member and haven't received the journals in a dozen years but I encourage you to go to your local engineering college and check out their journals. They're quite accessible to people, even if you don't have an advanced degree in engineering and mathematics. While the books do contain some calculus here and there, most of it is comprehensible by anyone.
Cheers, Rivercrazy. :)

[Tom Brown]

I guess what I am saying is that the only aspect of this I really don't understand is this whole doubling of sound every 3 db. I never hear it, not even close.
[snip]
If someone gets this better than I do, please jump in and explain it better... my knowledge is anectodal and experience based, not scientific.
Froggy, your ears have an automatic 'gain', of sorts. That is to say, you can go to a concert and have your hair blown back by the sound pressure levels and you can also hear a pin drop..... with the same set of ears.
If someone were to drop a pin next to you at a concert, I would suggest it's unlikely you would hear it. That's because your ears have 'gained down'.
This has the effect of making sound perception non-linear. Sound perception is roughly logarithmic.
A 3 dB increase in sound pressure level is indeed twice the sound pressure. There is twice the sound energy in the air and it will be applying twice the energy to your ears. As you mentioned, a 6 dB increase is a doubling of the doubling (2 x 3 dB increases), or a quadrupling. This is real. It is not how our ears perceive it, however. Our ears reduce sensitivity with volume, causing a doubling of sound pressure to sound only slightly louder.
... so.... you can hear really loud... and you can hear really quiet... but you can't hear them both at the same time. This automatic sensitivity feature of human hearing has the effect of causing us to perceive an artificially high dynamic range in hearing ability that we really don't have. We just have the ability to adjust our hearing sensors.
The rule of thumb is that a 10x increase in sound pressure (10 dB) will sound approximately like a doubling in perceived loudness.
As Rivercrazy pointed out, our sensitivity varies somewhat with frequency but the general rule holds.

[BadKachina]

Froggy, your ears have an automatic 'gain', of sorts. That is to say, you can go to a concert and have your hair blown back by the sound pressure levels and you can also hear a pin drop..... with the same set of ears.
If someone were to drop a pin next to you at a concert, I would suggest it's unlikely you would hear it. That's because your ears have 'gained down'.
This has the effect of making sound perception non-linear. Sound perception is roughly logarithmic.
A 3 dB increase in sound pressure level is indeed twice the sound pressure. There is twice the sound energy in the air and it will be applying twice the energy to your ears. As you mentioned, a 6 dB increase is a doubling of the doubling (2 x 3 dB increases), or a quadrupling. This is real. It is not how our ears perceive it, however. Our ears reduce sensitivity with volume, causing a doubling of sound pressure to sound only slightly louder.
... so.... you can hear really loud... and you can hear really quiet... but you can't hear them both at the same time. This automatic sensitivity feature of human hearing has the effect of causing us to perceive an artificially high dynamic range in hearing ability that we really don't have. We just have the ability to adjust our hearing sensors.
The rule of thumb is that a 10x increase in sound pressure (10 dB) will sound approximately like a doubling in perceived loudness.
As Rivercrazy pointed out, our sensitivity varies somewhat with frequency but the general rule holds.
I had always thought that 3db was double the sound. So by porting I though would gain you 3db at a certain frequency over not porting, basically it's doubling the sound or output of the woofer. If you have one 4 ohm mid and switch to two 8 ohm mids in parallel you gain 3db or double the sound. I had never heard that your ear is reacts or can become sensitive to a certain enviroment but it makes sense. The sound of the pin drop is still there, you've just managed to block it out because of the loud noise.
I dropped a roll of quarters in a casino one night and the change lady, with her back to me turned around and said you just dopped your quarters. I said how did you know????? She said she heard it hit the floor, she had become accustomed to the noise in the casino, but all I heard was slot machine noise.

[Tom Brown]

I had always thought that 3db was double the sound.
If you're talking about sound pressure, it is double.
We won't perceive it as double but 3 dB gain in sound pressure is double, by definition.
So by porting I though would gain you 3db at a certain frequency over not porting, basically it's doubling the sound or output of the woofer.
I've had bass reflex enclosures described to me as implementing a hole to allow the rear wave to come out the front of the enclosure, effectively doubling the amplitude. Perhaps you've heard the same. This is not correct.
A ported enclosure does not work on that principle at all. Ports are typically designed to amplify bass by 12~15 dB in a fairly narrow band, typically well under an octive. Also, the port can be in phase with the cone (but doesn't have to be). That is to say, both emit high and low pressure at the same time.
If the port is in phase with the cone, it should be positioned on the front of the enclosure. If the port is 180* out of phase with the cone, it should be positioned on the rear of the enclosure.
A port could easily be designed to amplify much more than 15 dB on a narrow part of the specturm but it would cause a chauffing sound. I've heard production enclosures make this noise at high volumes. The problem is air in the port going supersonic. That will give you an idea how much energy can be harnessed with a bass reflex design.
A port is a somewhat seperate chamber of air that is designed to resonate at a given frequency. Sound pressure in the box causes the port to resonate. The amplitude of the resonation goes up sharply as the sound pressure off the back of the driver approaches the resonant frequency of the port.
While some direct emissions from the rear of a driver will leak out of a port, a good design will minimize this. Basically, the sound pressure from the back of a driver causes air in the port to resonate which causes sound pressure to emit from the front of the port.

[BadKachina]

I've had bass reflex enclosures described to me as implementing a hole to allow the rear wave to come out the front of the enclosure, effectively doubling the amplitude. Perhaps you've heard the same. This is not correct.
A ported enclosure does not work on that principle at all. Ports are typically designed to amplify bass by 12~15 dB in a fairly narrow band, typically well under an octive. Also, the port can be in phase with the cone (but doesn't have to be). That is to say, both emit high and low pressure at the same time.
If the port is in phase with the cone, it should be positioned on the front of the enclosure. If the port is 180* out of phase with the cone, it should be positioned on the rear of the enclosure.
A port could easily be designed to amplify much more than 15 dB on a narrow part of the spectrum but it would cause a chauffing sound. I've heard production enclosures make this noise at high volumes. The problem is air in the port going supersonic. That will give you an idea how much energy can be harnessed with a bass reflex design.
A port is a somewhat separate chamber of air that is designed to resonate at a given frequency. Sound pressure in the box causes the port to resonate. The amplitude of the resonation goes up sharply as the sound pressure off the back of the driver approaches the resonant frequency of the port.
While some direct emissions from the rear of a driver will leak out of a port, a good design will minimize this. Basically, the sound pressure from the back of a driver causes air in the port to resonate which causes sound pressure to emit from the front of the port.
Complicated stuff..........
I understood a ported enclosure with the port in front of the driver to be a bandpass box. Those I have heard can increase the output of the driver by as much as 15db in a narrow frequency range. I personally don't know how figure or build one correctly and haven't attempted to. Since I have an Onkyo home stereo with a sub box, that has only a small port in the front of it, I would assume that it's a bandpass box. From what I understand they are not very forgiving if any of the factors, rear enclosure, front enclosure or port volume aren't all precise.
The way I understood a ported box (or a box with the port in behind the driver) to work, is that the rear wave exits the enclosure, being delayed properly by the volume of the port, in phase with the wave created by the driver, therefore doubling the output of the driver. In a perfect world you would have double the energy, in phase and double the sound.
Do I have this wrong? Or are they just generalizations and not necessarily truths?

[Tom Brown]

Complicated stuff..........
I understood a ported enclosure with the port in front of the driver to be a bandpass box.
Sounds right.
Here is some reference that will explain enclosure styles much better than I could ever dream of doing in text.
Enclosure types (http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/education/enclosures/main.htm)
The way I understood a ported box (or a box with the port in behind the driver) to work, is that the rear wave exits the enclosure, being delayed properly by the volume of the port, in phase with the wave created by the driver, therefore doubling the output of the driver. In a perfect world you would have double the energy, in phase and double the sound.
It sounds like you're pretty much on this but a port can provide far more than 3 dB of gain. Typically, ports are designed to provide 12 dB of gain. Even at 12 dB, care needs to be taken to insure air in the port does not go supersonic.
A port is a column of air that is induced to resonate by the energy that comes off the back of the driver and is contained in the enclosure. Basically, you have one energy source creating another, which creates another.

[Froggystyle]

Well, look who must be living in a Holiday Inn Express these days! :D
That explains clearly why the science never jived with my perception.
I will say this, if I leave the stereo on at 32, power down, go away and then come back later and just hit the power button... I am in disbelief that I listen to music that loud. Yet, on the sandbar all I can think of is how to get even more sound out of it.
As you say, the tolerance is built progressively.
A lot makes sense now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
Wes

[Froggystyle]

Ummmm Pardon the Interruption:
I love Zapco amps the best in car or truck----- but do not know anything about their speakers for marine application. Care to comment.
KAP
I use them in our premium installation. You have seen the level of thought that we put into every aspect of the boat, from wire looms to steering hardware. You heard the boat, and your exact words were that "everyone else shuts their stuff off when we get there" should solidify your faith in my choice. ;)
Keep in mind, all of the sound you hear in the boat is coming essentially out of six component sets, four subwoofers and two amplifiers. It runs for 8+ hours at a very loud volume and by sending out only discrete signal, it wastes none of it's wattage on crossovers or filtering. With the Class D monoblock sub amp, we are able to see massive gains in battery life over a standard amplifier, with no perceivable reduction in sound quality. All of the speakers are water resistant and can be used in an infinite baffle application, though they work better in enclosures by a lot.
Not cheap, but not insanely expensive, and more importantly, they deliver huge for the buck.

[rivercrazy]

Decibals as measured on an "intensity" level is more a lab/engineering scale than SPL measurements adjusted for the human ear. Instruments are able to consistently measure "intensity". But for human ear purposes, the variance in each set of ears and how the human ear amplifies certiain frequencies, makes this measurement inconsistent.
Most SPL meters are adjusted to compensate for the human ear and closely mimic an average range as interpreted by the human ear.
If you take those same decibal levels and measure them on a scientific instruments on an "intensity" scale, the results would be more scientifically accurate. But not really important for the purposes of developing consumer products. Human perception is more important for this purpose.

[02HoWaRd26]

Has anyone heard the PIXI boat, I have never heard a system not run on a generator on a pontoon sound better then theirs...

[Cheap Thrills]

Well, look who must be living in a Holiday Inn Express these days! :D
That explains clearly why the science never jived with my perception.
I will say this, if I leave the stereo on at 32, power down, go away and then come back later and just hit the power button... I am in disbelief that I listen to music that loud. Yet, on the sandbar all I can think of is how to get even more sound out of it.
As you say, the tolerance is built progressively.
A lot makes sense now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
Wes
Hey Wes,
Here's more food for thought for ya.......
I believe that speaker/amplifier performance has as much to do with the volume you hear over extended periods of time, as ones tolerance to high volume levels.
The longer you play at high power levels the hotter the voice coil gets. As heat increases in the voice coil so does the DC resistance/ AC impedance, the higher the resistance the less efficient the driver AND amplifier become, and thus more power is required to drive the speaker to the same volume level. That is why it's loud as hell err louder than you remember it after you shut down for a cool off period and return to the same settings.
I have a few papers/ links on the subject I will try to dig up.
ANYHOOO.... (http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/concepts/impedance.cfm)
Back to the original question as to what the best 6.5" speakers are.
You can pick apart any speaker , point out the good and harp on the bad all day until nothing sounds good on paper....But Quite simply , The best speakers are The ones your ears like.:p
But for marine use nothing is going to last very long. If you can keep the amplifier off the rails These (http://www.dcgoldaudio.com/index.html) are great for marine use.
*Flame Suit On :D
T.