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View Full Version : What makes The howard Bullet Hull so efficient?



Hotcobra270
06-29-2007, 11:08 AM
I read "the fastest bullet" tread plus the "bullet VS .." thead.
I'm just curious what makes this hull so good?
My cobra is about 300 pounds heavier, but its about 5 MPH slower with
a 496ho Vs a 28 bullet with an 496HO. i dont think 300 pounds will slow me down that much.
In theory, if Im 5 Mph slower, I would have to increase my HP to about 85 Additional ponies to be at where the 28 bullet runs correct?
I'm just wondering why new builders havent copied the bottom of the hull yet..
I could be wrong here..
What do you think?

eliminatedsprinter
06-29-2007, 12:11 PM
One reason I have heard and read is that they are all very, very well made and blue print straight (and they tend to stay that way). The other reason is because of the euro-style swim step. Example, the 28 bullet measures 28 ft from the bow tip to the end of the swim step. Thus, it actually has the wt and the running surface of a 26 footer......

Havasu_Dreamin
06-29-2007, 12:15 PM
I read "the fastest bullet" tread plus the "bullet VS .." thead.
I'm just curious what makes this hull so good?
My cobra is about 300 pounds heavier, but its about 5 MPH slower with
a 496ho Vs a 28 bullet with an 496HO. i dont think 300 pounds will slow me down that much.
In theory, if Im 5 Mph slower, I would have to increase my HP to about 85 Additional ponies to be at where the 28 bullet runs correct?
I'm just wondering why new builders havent copied the bottom of the hull yet..
I could be wrong here..
What do you think?
It's just the way Mike Willen designed the bottom.....he knows his stuff and he and his father Gene are great people to deal with.....

plaster dave
06-29-2007, 12:53 PM
It's just the way Mike Willen designed the bottom.....he knows his stuff and he and his father Gene are great people to deal with.....
I second that.

djunkie
06-29-2007, 01:14 PM
It's just the way Mike Willen designed the bottom.....he knows his stuff and he and his father Gene are great people to deal with.....
Exactly. But the way the Bullet hulls handle is the best part of them. More than speed IMO.

phebus
06-29-2007, 01:22 PM
Narrow beam also.

Cole Trickle
06-29-2007, 01:42 PM
Great efficent boat.....bar none the smallest 28 footer you have ever seen. Every time I tie up to one it makes my 28' boat look like a 30'+
I would love a closed deck bullet with a 525!!!:D:devil:

Havasu_Dreamin
06-29-2007, 02:04 PM
I would love a closed deck bullet with a 525!!!:D:devil:
I know of one For Sale, closed deck all red and you may be able to switch out the motor for a 525.....

rodnjen
06-29-2007, 02:07 PM
Great efficent boat.....bar none the smallest 28 footer you have ever seen. Every time I tie up to one it makes my 28' boat look like a 30'+
I would love a closed deck bullet with a 525!!!:D:devil:
I thought it was just me, they aren't quite as stout as some of the competition. I like that personally.
I also think that balance has a great deal to do with the efficiency and handling. I know they spent a lot of time to get just right.

Havasu_Dreamin
06-29-2007, 02:08 PM
Narrow beam also.
Not by much as it is 100" only an inch smaller than a DCB 28 Extreme.....

dr. margarita
06-30-2007, 12:49 PM
Simple answer......... Mike Willen knows his stuff!

OLD MAN ON THE LAKE
07-02-2007, 09:51 AM
I just got back from Powell.Bullet 25 , 3620 elevation,600hp,26p bravo,3000-3200 rpm 40-47 mph. Loaded with chairs,anchor,2 sand spikes,3 full coolers,4 large adults,skis,65 gals. fuel,extra prop.lots of ice 2.6 mpg. Very rough conditions, no tabs. The boat rode increadibly smooth and flat. Oh by the way, in 2 days I was never passed. Low elevation boating,I get 83 to 84 top end with a 28p lab bravo.In the real world its all about cruise. 45-48 at 3000 rpm 28p lab, riding like a 7 series BMW.

Cole Trickle
07-02-2007, 09:57 AM
I know of one For Sale, closed deck all red and you may be able to switch out the motor for a 525.....
I wish.....I will own the tug for a couple more years before I pull the trigger on a new boat.:)
Yours is very nice and the extra power wouldn't hurt;):D

rivercrazy
07-02-2007, 10:26 AM
Efficient bottom design
Modern raw materials used in the hull layup, some are layed up with exotic materials.
Careful attention to overall weight balance and the drivers/passenger seats are oriented more toward the rear of the boat (smaller cabin)
And lower freeboard, weight & length versus most of the competition.

DCBDaytona
07-02-2007, 11:02 AM
My observations: The 28' Bullet is the smallest in its class. Yes, it'll outrun all other 28 vees with similar power but it's much smaller compared to the Cobra, Lavey, DCB, etc. I've been in a 28 Bullet and 28 DCB...The DCB is HUGE in comparison. Much more freeboard and headroom. Just my $02. Not knocking the Howard, because it sure is a beauty.

FASTERDAMITT
07-02-2007, 08:10 PM
Any 28's built with a 496HO? What does it run for speed?
A 31.7' Superboat runs 74.1 mph in Texas waters with a 496HO, A 525 Super in Jersey runs 83.2 mph tested by Mercury for efficiency comparo. I think once you get in 90's the Howard will be faster power to weight ratio just by the profile and bottom design intensions.
I think it's a combo of a well built bottom and low profile. Most boats can go a little faster with more attention to the straightness of the bottom and as said, balance. You can tell Howard does that by the results.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, I just get excited sometimes when I drink JD & coke! By the way, nice Cobra.
Tom

andy01
07-02-2007, 10:41 PM
My observations: The 28' Bullet is the smallest in its class. .
There's your answer, the boat is tiny. Go look at one on the trailer next any other like boat. Heck put the 28' up to most 25' v's and they are bigger. Sure it might be 28' long but it is a very low freeboard 28'. They always look nice. small/light = speed.
Andy

TPI
07-03-2007, 05:37 AM
You guys are all pointing out some very valid and true points. The fact is:The CG is low, and the ventilated step is in the ideal spot. The bottom design is very different then most. Ask to crawl under one sometime and you will really appreciate what you see. The fact is,,,,,,,,,,,,the boat drives like a sports car, and I havent found a single engine vee of any size(24-30') that can run with one for several miles over 100 mph and not get completely out of control.
I think there has been talk of re-designing the "size" of the 28 Bullet in the next few years. More free board, a touch longer and a different deck/windshield. If this happens, it will be interesting to see how that one works.
Also, compared to a Superboat or Activator(both fast boats), the 28 Bullet has a wider beam. Its not that narrow. Narrow is fast,,,,,,,,,,,,,:D
Lastly, more guys with 24 degree vee's have been running the P5X prop lately and they are getting much more stable higher speeds, this is closing the gap on the vee bottom competition:idea:

FASTERDAMITT
07-03-2007, 11:08 AM
I'd like to try a P5X. I tried the 4bl Intimidator but the boat felt like the bow was too low. So far the Bravo 1 has given me good speed and stability. I'm worried the P5X may be too much bite for the XR and 800hp.

Hotcobra270
07-03-2007, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the info.. you guys know your stuff

98 Vector 21
07-03-2007, 12:31 PM
I though it was in the price! :eek:

little rowe boat
07-03-2007, 12:34 PM
I though it was in the price! :eek:
Good point.:D

Havasu_Dreamin
07-03-2007, 12:42 PM
I though it was in the price! :eek:
Quality aint cheap.....:)

dicudmore
07-03-2007, 01:59 PM
Quality aint cheap.....:)
are any of them "cheap" anymore??

Havasu_Dreamin
07-03-2007, 02:40 PM
are any of them "cheap" anymore??
Good point! :)

TPI
07-03-2007, 04:27 PM
I'd like to try a P5X. I tried the 4bl Intimidator but the boat felt like the bow was too low. So far the Bravo 1 has given me good speed and stability. I'm worried the P5X may be too much bite for the XR and 800hp.
The P5X is a very different prop. The key is to get the right pitch. Most guys will try one that is too "pitchy" for them. You will easily run 2-3+ pitches lower than your best performing 4 blade to run the same rpm. Especially in this heat. Your slip #'s will really drop. My 28 Bullet runs 9% slip at 100 mph with an 848 hp motor, and a 27P P5X. A touch over 10% slip with a bigger motor at 110 mph with a 29P P5X.

phebus
07-03-2007, 05:33 PM
I think the Bullet's just have more efficient drivers. :D Fast drivers, that's it. :)

TPI
07-04-2007, 06:10 AM
I think the Bullet's just have more efficient drivers. :D Fast drivers, that's it. :)
I just smile and push the lever forward,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,works for me.

FASTERDAMITT
07-04-2007, 08:19 PM
TPI, those slip numbers sound good! What drive do you run? How much is the prop shaft below to the bottom of the V?

deeee
07-09-2007, 10:56 AM
Why would you want to do a 100 in bullet I went for ride in my friends bullet that he just put a brand new teague motor making 850 hp and thought it was scary and we only hit 80 the water was too ruff to go any faster.

kap
07-09-2007, 12:28 PM
deee:
Where were you boating ????? Salt or Fresh. I ask this because in the salt your right the ocean dictates how fast but in the majority of fresh water lakes/river the water is hardly ruff unless their is a storm.
Eighty is not very fast---tournament bass boats hit 80 frequently while crossing lakes :) .
A 28 Bullet obtaining a top speed of 80MPH is neither unreasonable nor is it scary, unless you personnally are uncomfortable traveling at that speed.
FYI my father-in-laws tritoon does 49MPH with a V-8 and he'd like a little more speed.
Conclusion, everyone's speed threshold is different.
The Bullet runs great numbers due to the overall design,weight distribution, and all the valid points brought out by the contributing writers in this post.
KAP

TPI
07-09-2007, 12:31 PM
What kind of friend would take his buddy out in a boat and run 80 mph in bad(unsafe)water? It must have been pretty rough................No one ever said to run a Bullet in dangerous conditions at 100...........................
Going fast in any boat is scary if your not used to it, let alone if the water is bad.

deeee
07-09-2007, 01:08 PM
We where in long beach habor in the inner break water area. He only did it for couple seconds and then get off it. Its sort of new to him and hes excited about this new motor and wants to see what it can do.

deeee
07-09-2007, 01:12 PM
That motor he has I think is little different then a bass boat motor when he gas it throws you back in your seat. It does do more then 80 but we didnt find out how much more. The motor builder told him it should do 100

kap
07-09-2007, 04:41 PM
Hey Deee:
Tell your friend to bring it to San Diego and we can do some speed runs in Mission Bay in the A.M. like first light. In the AM it is flat and no one around you can really open it up. I would really like to see a Bullet in the saltwater doing some speed runs :D .
I'll buy lunch and the margaritas:) .
KAP
P.S. Don't knock them outboards they can really air it out.
P.P.S. If he wants we can take a run out to the Coronado Islands it has been pretty flat out their with the high pressure system.

deeee
07-10-2007, 08:47 AM
The boat should be in havusa this weekend.

clearfork
07-10-2007, 11:51 AM
Hmmmmmm........

TPI
07-10-2007, 03:27 PM
Hmmmmmm........
:confused: :confused: :confused:

HavasuHome
07-10-2007, 03:45 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Gary, I hear Mike sold the "Red Barron" with your motor in it to some guy in Vegas.

TPI
07-10-2007, 08:03 PM
This is true,
The guy really seems like a good guy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he has been running it pretty fast at Mead and he is actually looking to get a bit more speed:D Its a nice boat and he seems to really like it. I am glad it went to a good home.

NashvilleBound
07-11-2007, 10:01 AM
I need to jump in here..... I drove that Howard sled....a few times. Now Im not some professional driver but I have enough seat time to know when something is not right....and the Red Barron definitely was not right. If he's looking for more speed he needs a new lower. That thing was crazy quirrley after 90mph....
And as far as customer service..... I am seriously dissapointed in ALL involved...... and I dont even know them. When a customer like this that has spent ALLOT (thats another story) you would think he would be taken care of. I guess not, maybe because he lives in TN....who knows.
Even used his drive for a boat show and put it back on without installing the nuts on the twin ram steering... and the prop....what happened to the second prop?
Howard builds a good boat but I will never reccommend them due to the SHITTY customer service. The engine builder I thought was going to handle some of the issues but I guess they thought they were doing good enough by sending him parts at retail. That was chump too......
Michael is a good friend of mine and I can take his word for what he says. I trust him 100%. That is VERY hard to find these days. The rest I have seen myself or he has been on the phone while I was there..... it was very frustrating for him. Im glad he's done with Howard and Co. On to bigger and much better things.
Michael, Im sorry if I crossed any lines by posting this but it was very hard to watch you guys go through what you did. Im sure things will get better in your boating future....I mean how could they be any worse???? :D

Havasu_Dreamin
07-11-2007, 10:18 AM
Nothing but excellent customer service from Howard for us.....

OLD MAN ON THE LAKE
07-11-2007, 10:37 AM
Howard has built multiple boats for me.The boats have been awesome,the service as been excellent. I would go back in a heartbeat.My .02

BLOWN HOWARD
07-11-2007, 10:44 AM
I need to jump in here..... I drove that Howard sled....a few times. Now Im not some professional driver but I have enough seat time to know when something is not right....and the Red Barron definitely was not right. If he's looking for more speed he needs a new lower. That thing was crazy quirrley after 90mph....
And as far as customer service..... I am seriously dissapointed in ALL involved...... and I dont even know them. When a customer like this that has spent ALLOT (thats another story) you would think he would be taken care of. I guess not, maybe because he lives in TN....who knows.
Even used his drive for a boat show and put it back on without installing the nuts on the twin ram steering... and the prop....what happened to the second prop?
Howard builds a good boat but I will never reccommend them due to the SHITTY customer service. The engine builder I thought was going to handle some of the issues but I guess they thought they were doing good enough by sending him parts at retail. That was chump too......
Michael is a good friend of mine and I can take his word for what he says. I trust him 100%. That is VERY hard to find these days. The rest I have seen myself or he has been on the phone while I was there..... it was very frustrating for him. Im glad he's done with Howard and Co. On to bigger and much better things.
Michael, Im sorry if I crossed any lines by posting this but it was very hard to watch you guys go through what you did. Im sure things will get better in your boating future....I mean how could they be any worse???? :D
I would assume that if it was me and i spent the money on the boat and was not happy with it or the customer service that i was recieving i would be on here my self to voice my opinion. But i would never want any of my buddies to do it for me. And didnt TPI drive the boat well into the triple digits and say that everything was bueno!!!!!
"It's simply one of the best-handling and stable boats in its class"
-Powerboat Magazine

TPI
07-11-2007, 10:47 AM
I need to jump in here..... I drove that Howard sled....a few times. Now Im not some professional driver but I have enough seat time to know when something is not right....and the Red Barron definitely was not right. If he's looking for more speed he needs a new lower. That thing was crazy quirrley after 90mph....
And as far as customer service..... I am seriously dissapointed in ALL involved...... and I dont even know them. When a customer like this that has spent ALLOT (thats another story) you would think he would be taken care of. I guess not, maybe because he lives in TN....who knows.
Even used his drive for a boat show and put it back on without installing the nuts on the twin ram steering... and the prop....what happened to the second prop?
Howard builds a good boat but I will never reccommend them due to the SHITTY customer service. The engine builder I thought was going to handle some of the issues but I guess they thought they were doing good enough by sending him parts at retail. That was chump too......
Michael is a good friend of mine and I can take his word for what he says. I trust him 100%. That is VERY hard to find these days. The rest I have seen myself or he has been on the phone while I was there..... it was very frustrating for him. Im glad he's done with Howard and Co. On to bigger and much better things.
Michael, Im sorry if I crossed any lines by posting this but it was very hard to watch you guys go through what you did. Im sure things will get better in your boating future....I mean how could they be any worse???? :D
Wow,
Talk about a slam! I am only going to speak for myself/TPI here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Sir,
I should not have to justify my actions to you because I have never done business with you, ever. But If you are going to slam my business "engine builder" on a public forum, you are out of line. You do not have ALL of the facts here, and you have no idea the can of worms you can open up on a Public Forum. Michael has received UNBELIEVABLE service from me, do you know how I know that................HE TOLD ME OVER 25 TIMES!!!!!!!!If he told you something different, I can do nothing about that.
AS far as the "RED BARRON".......................I am definately not a "professional driver" but I drove that boat easliy with both of our spouses in the boat at 99 mph without a bobble BEFORE the boat was delivered. The boat is solid, period.

Beer-30
07-11-2007, 11:51 AM
I'm just curious what makes this hull so good?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/383jr3mm.JPG
:D :D :) :D :D

TPI
07-11-2007, 11:53 AM
Wow,
Talk about a slam! I am only going to speak for myself/TPI here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Sir,
I should not have to justify my actions to you because I have never done business with you, ever. But If you are going to slam my business "engine builder""Chump" on a public forum, you are out of line. You do not have ALL of the facts here, and you have no idea the can of worms you can open up on a Public Forum. Michael has received UNBELIEVABLE service from me, do you know how I know that................HE TOLD ME OVER 25 TIMES!!!!!!!!If he told you something different, I can do nothing about that.
AS far as the "RED BARRON".......................I am definately not a "professional driver" but I drove that boat easliy with both of our spouses in the boat at 99 mph without a bobble BEFORE the boat was delivered. The boat is solid, period.
Lastly,
Taking one side of a story and running wild on public forum with "partial info" is pretty childish. I personally know that I have done a great service for Michael and his family,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe you should ask him? Go ahead and ask him, seriously. Ask him if he would like to come on here and tell everyone how "bad" I treated he and his family..........Its just not true. If there were a post of everything I did for Michael, it would be 12 pages long, and you know what, I would do it again. It's the way I run my business, and I take it VERY personal!
As far as any other complaints or concerns he or you have, maybe you should try to resolve them directly? But please,,,,,,,,,,,,,Get ALL of the facts first.
Gary Taylor (805)480-2693

TPI
07-11-2007, 11:54 AM
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/383jr3mm.JPG
:D :D :) :D :D
Thanks Beer30,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

NashvilleBound
07-11-2007, 12:27 PM
Lastly,
Taking one side of a story and running wild on public forum with "partial info" is pretty childish. I personally know that I have done a great service for Michael and his family,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe you should ask him? Go ahead and ask him, seriously. Ask him if he would like to come on here and tell everyone how "bad" I treated he and his family..........Its just not true. If there were a post of everything I did for Michael, it would be 12 pages long, and you know what, I would do it again. It's the way I run my business, and I take it VERY personal!
As far as any other complaints or concerns he or you have, maybe you should try to resolve them directly? But please,,,,,,,,,,,,,Get ALL of the facts first.
Gary Taylor (805)480-2693
All I know is what I saw for myself and what Michael has told me personally. This boat was a problem from the beginning. Remember I sent you a PM on how I appreciated you taking care of Michael the way you did? Well..... that was cool of you..... but charging him what you did for those pullies....day-umn. I still think you build a great product.....its the customer service were talking about here. You SHOULD be VERY proud of what you build.
I have no doubt Michael will chime in here. This is what public forums are all about..... If Michael posts a different story I will be the first to Publicly Apologize. Something tells me its not going to happen.......

TPI
07-11-2007, 12:51 PM
Fair Enough,
But let me say this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,When Michael had the belt issue and damaged the two pullies(over a year after he bought the motor from me), I was going to send them to him NO CHARGE, as I have offered from day one on ANYTHING he questioned, and his words were EXACTLY, "Please charge me accordingly for these pullies, I do not want to take advantage of you". "I want you to make some money on this deal". He was serious and very clear,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I took my cost on the Whipple Billet Pullies(very expensive) and added what Whipple charged me to ship them, thats it. I made nothing. That makes it a chump deal?
Once again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if Michael is thanking me in person, and telling you something else, I cannot control that. I received an e-mail AFTER he sold the boat thanking me over and over again for my service,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thats all I have to reference Sir,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

BLOWN HOWARD
07-11-2007, 01:46 PM
All I know is what I saw for myself and what Michael has told me personally. This boat was a problem from the beginning. Remember I sent you a PM on how I appreciated you taking care of Michael the way you did? Well..... that was cool of you..... but charging him what you did for those pullies....day-umn. I still think you build a great product.....its the customer service were talking about here. You SHOULD be VERY proud of what you build.
I have no doubt Michael will chime in here. This is what public forums are all about..... If Michael posts a different story I will be the first to Publicly Apologize. Something tells me its not going to happen.......
Once again i dont think anybody cares about he said/ she said crap. Either it comes from the horses mouth or it doesnt. I dont think you have any right coming on here and ripping some one's name and product that you dont own or paid for!!!! So lets clear all this up and have CLEARFORK explain his side of the story!!!!

SoCalHD
07-11-2007, 03:08 PM
.....I dont think you have any right coming on here and ripping some one's name and product that you dont own or paid for!!!!
If this were adhered to, there would be no ***boat.........

kap
07-11-2007, 03:15 PM
Nashville Bound:
Those are some serious allegations your making in a public venue. However, I believe the veracity of those statements is dubious and/or not intended for public posting.
Second, I question the timing of those statements as they only surfaced once the vessel has been sold and no mention was made during numerous posts in the "Howard Bullet Versus" thread by the alleged author of those statements.
Quite the contrary, Michael aka Clearfork previously wrote:
I am way too proud of Gary Taylor's engine to put it in salt water. Not gonna happen. This would lead the reader to believe Clearfork is quite happy with the service/motor they received.
I understand as a friend you would want to demonstrate your allegiance and loyalty to your friend or express his frustration. However, it is wholly inappropriate to do so publicly. To do so in a public forum should be your absolute last resort to express the lack of satisfaction with the customer service received from the vendor.
Clearfork will undoubtedly avoid this embroiled situation and topic. However, without commenting on the merits Nashville Bound you should be a gentleman and apologize to both parties, Howard Custom Boats and TPI for bringing this into a public forum. This matter should have been handled privately.
For Example: If someone I know received poor service. I would have THEM write a letter expressing their concerns to the person directly and request a response versus third party inuenndo and hearsay. It would also be concurrent with the service issue not months after the fact.
I trust you understand that words are like "Bullet's" once you use them you cannot take them back.
Respectfully,
KAP aka John C

NashvilleBound
07-11-2007, 03:25 PM
ClearFork will be posting as soon as he gets in......... I hope to clear the air. He's on the road till 9pm.....so its gonna be a bit. People on these forums that know me know I am a straight shooter....I hold no punches either way. I make nothing bigger or smaller than I see it.... this is not a big deal and i am sure Clearfork will state whats up in his own words. Hold on tight..........

phebus
07-11-2007, 03:52 PM
Just a suggestion, but in my opinion, a call to Gary Taylor from Clearfork would be in order before any further posting. If there are any misunderstandings or questions on past business dealings some real hard facts discussed between the two would probably go a long way.
With proper communication, maybe there really aren't any issues at all.
No sense in any mud slinging until the interested parties communicate.
Let's be gentlemen.

rivercrazy
07-11-2007, 03:59 PM
Just a suggestion, but in my opinion, a call to Gary Taylor from Clearfork would be in order before any further posting. If there are any misunderstandings or questions on past business dealings some real hard facts discussed between the two would probably go a long way.
With proper communication, maybe there really aren't any issues at all.
No sense in any mud slinging until the interested parties communicate.
Let's be gentlemen.
Now that is one of, if the the best, posts I've ever read on ***boat. Phebus, your a class act.....

djunkie
07-11-2007, 04:01 PM
Now that is one of, if the the best, posts I've ever read on ***boat. Phebus, your a class act.....
Phebus must not have started drinking yet. :idea:

mmered8299
07-11-2007, 05:21 PM
Just a suggestion, but in my opinion, a call to Gary Taylor from Clearfork would be in order before any further posting. If there are any misunderstandings or questions on past business dealings some real hard facts discussed between the two would probably go a long way.
With proper communication, maybe there really aren't any issues at all.
No sense in any mud slinging until the interested parties communicate.
Let's be gentlemen.
I'd like to here whats going on and come to my own conculsions. I think these fourms are great for such problems. What to hide.

TPI
07-11-2007, 06:30 PM
Just a suggestion, but in my opinion, a call to Gary Taylor from Clearfork would be in order before any further posting. If there are any misunderstandings or questions on past business dealings some real hard facts discussed between the two would probably go a long way.
With proper communication, maybe there really aren't any issues at all.
No sense in any mud slinging until the interested parties communicate.
Let's be gentlemen.
There are definately no issues between Michael(clearfork) and I. We have established a business relationship, and a friendship.............I am certain as long as he is boating, that relationship will continue, and he would call or e-mail me in an instant if he needs assistance.
Also, I would be happy to speak volumes about the Howard product and Performance(especially regarding their Bullet line) and I will continue to run my 28 Bullet happily. It has been an excellent boat(The best I have ever been involved with). When it comes to high speed single engine vee bottoms..........there is not a more stable and better handling 25-28. Trust me. Does that mean I would build a 90+ mph single engine vee and put anyone in it and say....................have fun? Not a chance. NO one ever said any one can go 100 mph in a Howard Bullet. But it has been said by many that it is the best handling single engine vee over 100 mph. Learning to drive ANY single engine vee bottom fast takes patience and time. Some guys get it right away, some guys take a bit longer...........................but with patience, they learn to feel the boat. Some vee bottoms cannot get up to high speeds no matter who is driving and no matter what you do. The hull just won't do it. The Howard Bullets will do it................ safely and easily IMO. FACT: I have never been involved with a customer that had an ill handling boat........ever(Let alone a Howard). The Red Barron is a VERY nice boat. I would put my family in that boat in a second. There are three boats out there EXACTLY like it (I measured them) and the customers LOVE them in every way. Maybe Michael didnt like the way the boat felt.................It's possible, right? I don't see a problem with that. He dealt with it his own way. The way that worked the best for he and his family. I don't knock him for that,,,,,,,,,and he knows it.

Lavey29
07-11-2007, 06:46 PM
Wow, I find this whole thread very interesting. I voiced my opinion on Howard boats in a previous thread which most of you have read and responded to. I did not see one mention of any handling problem with any Howard boat in that previous thread but a few persons attacked Lavey's for alleged handling problems. I would think that if Clearfork was having some problems, he would have addressed it in that thread previously. Is it possible his boat had or developed a set up problem, sure it is. Maybe he needs more seat time to run a boat that fast. Maybe the water conditions where he boats are not the best for the Howard bottom. It is my opinion that they don't like or handle rough water that well. There are a lot of variables that may establish why his boat was not performing at the expected level. I feel he should be the one to address his boat problems in here (if he chooses) and not have someone else give second hand info. As far as TPI motors, I have a lot of respect for Gary and his product. I have not heard one negative thing about his motors and I have met him in person and he seems like an honest small business man just trying to make a good product for us boaters. I would buy his product anytime. No matter what boat you run, how much money you invested, how good a boater you are, something may happen when the boat was rigged or after you have been running it to cause handling problems. I know mine runs better with the 5 blade then the 4. Let's see if Clearfork wants to share his situation with us before any other opinions are formed...Just my .02

Lavey29
07-11-2007, 06:48 PM
One other thing, I meant "alleged" problems that Clearfork was having, second hand info about it is not sufficient enough. He, himself should be the one to address it if he chooses.....thanks guys

kap
07-11-2007, 07:16 PM
TPI wrote:
Learning to drive ANY single engine vee bottom fast takes patience and time. Some guys get it right away, some guys take a bit longer...........................but with patience, they learn to feel the boat
Amen:chi: ---I have been saying that for quite some time, nice to know I'm not alone.
KAP

Havasu_Dreamin
07-11-2007, 07:36 PM
It is my opinion that they don't like or handle rough water that well.
Have you been in one in rough water conditions?

clearfork
07-11-2007, 08:39 PM
Gentlemen,
Easy now......
First of all, let me say, no one should be on Nashvillebound's back.
He has been a sounding board for me as well as a good friend.
He is looking out for me, and I apreciate that.
He has the story straight as far as I am concerned.
I am going to try to be as much of a gentleman here as well.
But I should have taken my gloves off long ago.
Maybe I didnt ask the right questions, but I did not get what I paid for.
Not even close...
It is as much my fault as anyone's.
The boat has issues.
Yes I could buy a prop. ......Bandaid 1...1700
new lower .........................bandaid 2..6000+++
spacer.............................bandaid 3...250++++
longer skeg??? ..................bandaid...4.....500++
I am tired of spending money on that boat.
I have 6k in repairs...NO joke. (not all engine realated)
Plus quite a bit of exspected routine maint.
Prop. and straps from the sit in Valencia as well.
The list goes on..........
I am not by any means brilliant, nor am I chuck yeager.
But I have a masters degree and have been a commercial aviator for 22 years. 14 years in heavy commercial pax aircraft.
I think that I should be able to figure out how to get the boat to 100 mph in two seasons time, dont you think?? Maybe even if I couldnt the the other 8 or so people who tried as well. I personally never saw the boat ever make it to 100, ever. I did see 98 once briefly but had to back out quickly. Basicly had to turn from side to side to get it to drive through.....
No fun, a rush yes, but not fun.
Gary,
I have called you at least 5-6 times and at least 4 emails over the past few weeks (4-6 weeks) you choose not to return my calls.
I dont think either one of us needs to play the friend card right now.
I feel betrayed,
I wish it could have been off the forums, really.
Now I understand you may have been busy for one or two, but I think we both agree you were sick of hearing from me. Which is fine. But that is not the friendly realationship I was participating in. I finally decided that if I was going to get any help for the issues that kept creeping up then I had to take start fixing things myself or find help. The last fix was an all day project.
In Gary' defense.....
Yes, I did tell Gary, that I would eat things along the way.
yes, he did ask if I wanted him to jump in and help out.
My motor never had a warantee, I knew that from day 1.
Gary had agreed that I had a get out of jail free card, I choose not to use it.
I dont remember telling him to make money per se but I also wanted to make sure that when I had a problem he would take some resposibility along with me. I still think that 540 is a bit much for three pulleys. whatever. I had them priced in the 290 range from another person who also uses whipple parts.
The fact of the matter was the reasoning behind why I had to replace them to begin with. Service???? There have been other issues too...
The trim rams coming off could have potentially hurt my family and my friends, I still havent heard who put my drive back on my boat. They forgot a couple of things.....
a couple of important things.....
Needless to say, I know that this probably is not the way to gain friends here on the forums. Going head to head with Gary isnt what i would call fun after flying all day. I am sorry to all involved for the hurt feelings, but I can assure you I am glad that the boat is gone.
Hopefully this will not hurt the new owner's chance for success.
He is alot closer and will be in touch with all parties I am sure.
Like gary said he is a nice guy, and I hope you guys will welcome him.
I have thought about doing this for quite a while, This is by no means a bashing sesson. Gary has done alot of nice things for my family. Agree fully.
He is knowleable beyond his years. Agreed.
If you got the last email Gary, I said thanks. I meant it.
You still choose not to respond, and now I seem to have your attention.
But just because you ignore a problem doesnt mean it will go away.
Be well all... Good night...Michael

TPI
07-11-2007, 08:56 PM
I guess this will have to be handled off the forums.
Nashvillebound, I apologize to you personally. I guess I was wrong. I will have to go through my e-mails and see what I must have missed when I returned from our Powell trip.

NashvilleBound
07-12-2007, 03:40 AM
Rio, Thanks and I agree. I think this thread should dissapear now that all parties are "talking". Maybe when we see the next thread it will be something very positive...... how about it guys?
Gary, It was tough to see Michael go though this...... maybe I should not have posted anything....maybe so. Either way I would still call you for engine advice if I thought you could help. Im sure you would not want to talk to me now, but Im just letting you know I still feel you, like I stated before, build a great product.
Michael, Good post. Im glad you have started to vent on this......I know it has been wearing you down. I didnt get shiiiit for sleep last night....uh, oh...never mind... it was Fluffy who kept me "up" all night... carry on :D :D :D

TPI
07-12-2007, 05:57 AM
Guys,
This has truely been an interesting situation for me, and an eye opener as a businessman in a bunch of different ways. The real facts belong to MR Prince and I. There are things that might or might not be discussed between Mr. Prince and I(in private), but the fact of the matter is.................they don't belong on these boards. With that being said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this will be my last post on these forums. I have really thought long and hard about it, and I just don't think it's a good idea to post anymore as a business owner.
When I came here 4 years ago, it was a little different(I was Gary Taylor not TPI). My business was never discussed(well,,,,,,,,,not as much), I just gave my opinions and posted like everyone else. I really think there are good reasons that manufacturers and engine builders do not post(usually). Trust me guys, this is totally for the best.
I can be contacted anytime(unless of course I am on vacation to the lake or at the fire station) at (805)480-2693 or at gary@TPBOATS.com
I will continue to check my PM's and re-direct them to the e-mail above
Thanks for everything guys,
Gary Taylor/TPI

BLOWN HOWARD
07-12-2007, 06:06 AM
Hate to see ya go Gary. All the helpful info and great deals you posted on here will be greatly missed. Everybody should know that life is not perfect and no boat out there is perfect, but life goes on.

little rowe boat
07-12-2007, 07:41 AM
Guys,
This has truely been an interesting situation for me, and an eye opener as a businessman in a bunch of different ways. The real facts belong to MR Prince and I. There are things that might or might not be discussed between Mr. Prince and I(in private), but the fact of the matter is.................they don't belong on these boards. With that being said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this will be my last post on these forums. I have really thought long and hard about it, and I just don't think it's a good idea to post anymore as a business owner.
When I came here 4 years ago, it was a little different(I was Gary Taylor not TPI). My business was never discussed(well,,,,,,,,,not as much), I just gave my opinions and posted like everyone else. I really think there are good reasons that manufacturers and engine builders do not post(usually). Trust me guys, this is totally for the best.
I can be contacted anytime(unless of course I am on vacation to the lake or at the fire station) at (805)480-2693 or at gary@TPBOATS.com
I will continue to check my PM's and re-direct them to the e-mail above
Thanks for everything guys,
Gary Taylor/TPI
This really is to bad it came to this. Too bad Clearfork didn't man up and talk to you about it before it ended up here on the forums.

OLD MAN ON THE LAKE
07-12-2007, 08:14 AM
Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater. That sucks. Gary I respect your decision as a business man and you have to do whats best for you and your family.You have done more for boating enthusiasts on this site than you will ever know.The amount of business that you have received because of your participation is and will be very hard to measure. You will never satisfy every customer,whether it be your fault or your customers.At the end of the day you must be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did the best job possible under the circumstances,with the best of intentions,integrity and honor.What ever you do,do not allow this to bruise your entrepreneurial spirit,its easy to do.To participate in the public forum as a business man has always been difficult,that is why most politicians are attorneys.To the detriment of the community I may add.If you look around the boating industry you will find many people who have contributed to magazines,boating associations ect.I am sure they all have horror stories but many in the end are successful because of their participation in such forums.To do what you have done takes COCONUTS.You are highly respected in this forum as well as in the performance boat industry.I for one will truly miss your knowledge,expertise and sense of humor.Best to You and Yours . TOM

Lavey29
07-12-2007, 02:11 PM
Have you been in one in rough water conditions?
Hi Scott, No I have not been in one in rough water conditions. I have spoken with several people with a great deal of boating experience about their rough water (ocean) capabilities. The small freeboard design is not conducive to good rough water handling. There are no Howard boats currently racing in offshore/F1 nor have there ever been any involved in offshore racing to my knowledge. They make a great fast boat but it is my opinion that they have limitations, the same as all boats do. Several persons have alluded to handling problems in this thread and one talked about running their bullet in the ocean at 80 and it was a scary ride. This apparently was inside the breakwater where it does not get even close to as rough as the open ocean. I like the quality of the Howards and if I decide to go deck boat their deck is on my short list of choices but I still feel they are not the best (fastest) boat in any and all conditions.

little rowe boat
07-12-2007, 04:06 PM
LRB, it's also too bad that you don't possess the class that Gary, Michael, and Jeff do. Your reading and comprehension could use a lil work also.
"Gary,
I have called you at least 5-6 times and at least 4 emails over the past few weeks (4-6 weeks) you choose not to return my calls."
It appears that Clearfork made every effort short of the pony express. Now it's your turn "to man up" and apologize.
Works both ways,
Rio
I read everything you did and comprehend everything that was written. I don't know either one of them and just call it as I read it. Not trying to start anything unless you are???? Gary also said he was out of town. Maybe you did not comprehend that. I am not going to defend either one of them. I just think it's bullsh!t the way it went down. As for class you fit right in.

little rowe boat
07-13-2007, 07:36 AM
"I am not going to defend either one of them. I just think it's bullsh!t the way it went down. "
I'm glad we agree.
I too think it was a shame the way it came about. You haven't, nor will you ever, see me air my business on any webpages.
It is ashame the way it came about, having a buddy voice the problem and only then coming clean with what the problem is, is total BS. Maybe if he had come clean from day 1, none of this would have made it to the forums and possibly hurt Gary's business.
While YOU did not defend either party, YOU did take a "cheap shot" at Michael-Clearfork- that was uncalled for.
I don't see it that way. What is cheap is having a buddy air the problem and then blind siding TPI. only after that was posted.
My critique of your behavior was actually more appropriate than your "catty" remark. When I'm wrong or outta line I do not have a problem admitting my blunder and apologizing-> I've done it many times in the past and will probably do so many more times before I'm done.
Then I'll await your apology.:D In all seriousness, maybe it is not my place to make a " catty remark " it was or is the way I feel though. It angers me that this all came about and has now caused a great resource for all of us boaters to leave the forums.
In my world right is right, wrong is wrong, and fair is fair.
I agree with this, but people don't and never will ALWAYS see things the same way. So, what is right, wrong or fair to you may not be how someone else see's it. Remember there are usually 2 sides to every story. Party #1, Party #2 and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
I'm sorry that I forget that there are thin-skinned, self rightous individuals that can't just "man-up", take a lil criticism when deserved and apologize when it's due, and go on.
Thin skinned, thats not me but self righteous, maybe a little especially when it comes to the above that I quoted you on. right is right,wrong is wrong and so on. I take criticism everyday and do not have a problem with it, when it is deserved.if I did feel the need to apologize I would, but as of now I do not.
I just call it like I see it also but the difference between us is I'll man-up and admit my error. In this case, the error was yours.
Rio
The error was the way Clearfork handled it. and not manning up from day 1. Lets just agree to disagree.
LRB.
Jeff

BLOWN HOWARD
07-13-2007, 07:48 AM
Hi Scott, No I have not been in one in rough water conditions. I have spoken with several people with a great deal of boating experience about their rough water (ocean) capabilities. The small freeboard design is not conducive to good rough water handling. There are no Howard boats currently racing in offshore/F1 nor have there ever been any involved in offshore racing to my knowledge. They make a great fast boat but it is my opinion that they have limitations, the same as all boats do. Several persons have alluded to handling problems in this thread and one talked about running their bullet in the ocean at 80 and it was a scary ride. This apparently was inside the breakwater where it does not get even close to as rough as the open ocean. I like the quality of the Howards and if I decide to go deck boat their deck is on my short list of choices but I still feel they are not the best (fastest) boat in any and all conditions.
My boat runs in the ocean and no its not a bullet but a smaller Howard. 22ftr offshore. The previous owner did the catalina ski races with it for years and told it rode really good better than most boats in its class size. But thats just mine!!!

Essex502
07-13-2007, 10:30 AM
First let me say that I've been away from the Hot Boat board for awhile due to not being able to get to it from the office and little time available in the evenings to get on. But after reading 3+ pages of this thread I must put in my two cents worth...
First...In 2005 we ordered our 28' Howard Bullet and the process was nothing short of spectacularly pleasant. Yes, the price is high but the quality and follow-up customer service is exceptional. We ordered it in April of 2005 for a scheduled build start of June 1 and promised delivery date of late July. Both dates were met. I was there at the shop almost every day once the baot came out of the mold since it is near my house. I was treated with exceptional courtesy and respect for every request I made along the way. Both Gene and Mike were willing to customize just about anything we wanted. The build took time and after watching the details of the construction I can say I don't believe there is a finer organization for truly magnificent boats. It's maiden voyage was at Castaic with Gene the day before we pulled it to Havasu where its permanent home is. Gene took as much time as we wanted in the orientation and shakedown. That was on a Friday night well after business hours. They stored it overnight for us to pick up on Saturday morning. Being concerned about the long tow and doubtful weather predictions Mike Willen had the crew shrinkwrap the boat for the tow. Yes, I did pay for that since I asked for it but I thought the $200 was reasonable seeing as to how the crew was gone for the day on Friday when we came back from Castaic and the boat was ready for us to take at 9:00 AM the next day. Exceptional service.
Like every new boat a couple of little things needed some attention after delivery. The main issue was a tach that would rev to exactly 4,000 RPM and drop to 0 as it passed that point. I called Gene from Havasu and he said bring back the tach and he'd replace it. When I did, Gene walked next door to Teague and brought me another Autometer tach. I put the tach back in when we returned to Havasu two weeks later - same thing. When I called Gene he said to either bring the boat back from Havasu and they would go through it or take it to a Mercury authorized shop there and he'd take care of the charges. I took the later route. Unfortunately, I took it to a shop (not Howard's current warranty shop in Havasu - Absolute but another local shop) who struggled to find the true cause of the problem. After they had the boat for 3 weeks - sitting outside for the entire time unless it was being worked on - I called Gene again and asked what I should do. Gene said he'd contact Mercury Racing (HP525 in the boat). Next day, Mercury Racing's tech guru called my Havasu shop and within 2 days the problem was solved. It turned out that Mercury Racing sent the wrong harness with the motor and a resistor had to be put inline with a wire to correctly send a proper signal to the tach. Without Gene's intervention the boat might still be sitting at that shop. Mike and Gene have sinced secured Absolute Speed and Marine to be their Havasu warranty center. I think everyone on this board respects Absolute so you can understand that Gene and Mike wanted nothing but the best for its Havasu based customers. BTW...I brought back the invoice for over $400 to Gene for the shop's work and he cut me a check on the spot.
After a few more months as the 2005 season was ending, we decided to bring the boat back to Valencia for Howard to correct a couple of other little issues like a tiny hydraulic leak in the trim tabs, a throttle that would quite stay in place (Livorsi offshore controls) and a little gel scuffs. No charge and the happlily stored our boat for the two weeks between the time we brought it back and when we were going back to Havasu - no charge for storage. Mike Willen met us on a Sunday afternoon when we brought the boat to them - taking him away from his family that day. Great service again.
With both Gene and Mike plus all of the shop staff I feel like they are almost family. I know I can be a bothersome pest and certainly got in the way taking pictures of the entire build process from the taping of the mold to when we took the "sea trials". NOTHING BUT GREAT EXPERIENCES.
Now...to the other issues brought about by this thread....
I was sitting in Gene's office the day that Michael placed his order for the Red Barron. He NEVER took a ride in one prior to ordering. First mistake. Gene, at the time recommended he go with the Mercury Racing HP525 but Michael was intent, at that time, to want a Teague 900 (I think that was the model but it was certainly a Teague big motor). Gene tried to dissaude Michael from this but as he said to me after taking the order - the customer is right and will get what he wants. I don't know when Gary Taylor got involved and sold him on the idea of using one of his motors so I can't comment. I watched the Red Barron being built with Gary doing some or all of the rigging - even while Gary was NOT a Howard employee but doing it in and around his regular job and his motor building business. I have met and talked with Gary many, many times and have the utmost respect for him. Great guy. Never bought anything from him but listening to him talk with others I've only seen him be upfront and honest. Complete FANATIC about the quality of his work. I know the work took especially long to complete the Red Barron due to Gary's schedule and the his dedication to be perfect. This is a one of a kind boat.
There is a thread on this board as well about the buildup of the Red Barron I believe that everyone should read.
Now my commentary....while never having met Michael and not knowing him, I am still going to make some observations...
1) I think the Red Barron scaried the crap out of him and he wasn't comfortable at the edges of the performance envelope. Single engine V hulls going 100 mph is rarified air. I personally think he crapped his pants and never learned to drive this boat at those elevated speeds. Being a pilot doesn't make him a qualified boater just by association. If he didn't like it just man up and say so. Take the hit instead of blaming Gary or Gene. If he was treated badly by either it was only due to an unreasonableness about what is truly his bad decision to buy a boat untried and at such an elevated performance level. Controlling ultra performance equipment takes time and commitment - you just don't learn it over night. Let me make an analogy...if I am a great boat driver - say as good as Bob Teague - does that make me a skilled pilot that should be entrusted with the lives of 300+ passengers? HELL NO.
2) Having personally been involved with very high performance racing I can attest that NO brand new, unique combination is without some tweaking and adjustment to find the EXACT combination that works the best. If the experimentation necessary to achieve the ultra performance was distastful, Michael had NO EXCUSE but his OWN FAULT for it. He wanted the cachet fo being in the ultra performance owners group WITHOUT the dues being paid to get there. No sympathy for him from me.
3) As to dealings with Gary Taylor and Gene Willen, you get as much back as you sow. I've dealt with Gene and found him to be very helpful and courteous before and during the purchase; during the build process; and certainly after care necessary when buying a custom piece of artwork. I havn't dealt with Gary professionally but from what I've witnessed he certainly is a perfectionist.
The Howard Bullets I find to be some of the most stable and best handling boats around. This is echoed by Bob Teague no less who drove Gary's boat to well over 100 mph - commenting on multiple occasions how increadibly stable the Bullet is at those rarified speeds. I respect Bob Teague's many accomplishments and his opinions. While every boat's individual setup might be slightly different because of the exact combination of components I think the original owner gave up when he wasn't willing to put in the effort to become familiar with it. The 28 Bullet has won Powerboat's Sport Boat of the year 4 times so it can't be too bad, can it?
If all of you who are interested in this thread care to reread the following: http://***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86523&highlight=%22Red+barron%22 you will understand the efforts Gary Taylor went to make sure the Michael had a good experience. Page three especially is telling.
Those of you who haven't driven or ridden in a Howard Bullet should do so before commenting on their appropriateness for any kind of conditions. I've driven ours to nearly 80 mph with no handling issues at all. In the worst conditions that Havasu has dished out in the last two years the boat is phenomenal. Extremely stable. While not the ocean (who cares - not me) Havasu can be nasty on stormy days or big weekends on Saturday afternoon. I've also driven in nasty conditions at Lake Mohave will perfect stability. I would recommend this boat to anyone who desires the utmost in quality and attention to detail. Pricy - yes but you get what you pay for in life. Some say the Bullet is small for a 28' boat - again who cares? It measures 28' by the standard measurement employed - end to end! Does it have a high freeboard? No - but that's it's beauty. It doesn't look like a pig in the water as some do. Is it dry riding - absolutely and even is some really nasty crap that I've driven through.

OLD MAN ON THE LAKE
07-13-2007, 11:05 AM
First let me say that I've been away from the Hot Boat board for awhile due to not being able to get to it from the office and little time available in the evenings to get on. But after reading 3+ pages of this thread I must put in my two cents worth...
First...In 2005 we ordered our 28' Howard Bullet and the process was nothing short of spectacularly pleasant. Yes, the price is high but the quality and follow-up customer service is exceptional. We ordered it in April of 2005 for a scheduled build start of June 1 and promised delivery date of late July. Both dates were met. I was there at the shop almost every day once the baot came out of the mold since it is near my house. I was treated with exceptional courtesy and respect for every request I made along the way. Both Gene and Mike were willing to customize just about anything we wanted. The build took time and after watching the details of the construction I can say I don't believe there is a finer organization for truly magnificent boats. It's maiden voyage was at Castaic with Gene the day before we pulled it to Havasu where its permanent home is. Gene took as much time as we wanted in the orientation and shakedown. That was on a Friday night well after business hours. They stored it overnight for us to pick up on Saturday morning. Being concerned about the long tow and doubtful weather predictions Mike Willen had the crew shrinkwrap the boat for the tow. Yes, I did pay for that since I asked for it but I thought the $200 was reasonable seeing as to how the crew was gone for the day on Friday when we came back from Castaic and the boat was ready for us to take at 9:00 AM the next day. Exceptional service.
Like every new boat a couple of little things needed some attention after delivery. The main issue was a tach that would rev to exactly 4,000 RPM and drop to 0 as it passed that point. I called Gene from Havasu and he said bring back the tach and he'd replace it. When I did, Gene walked next door to Teague and brought me another Autometer tach. I put the tach back in when we returned to Havasu two weeks later - same thing. When I called Gene he said to either bring the boat back from Havasu and they would go through it or take it to a Mercury authorized shop there and he'd take care of the charges. I took the later route. Unfortunately, I took it to a shop (not Howard's current warranty shop in Havasu - Absolute but another local shop) who struggled to find the true cause of the problem. After they had the boat for 3 weeks - sitting outside for the entire time unless it was being worked on - I called Gene again and asked what I should do. Gene said he'd contact Mercury Racing (HP525 in the boat). Next day, Mercury Racing's tech guru called my Havasu shop and within 2 days the problem was solved. It turned out that Mercury Racing sent the wrong harness with the motor and a resistor had to be put inline with a wire to correctly send a proper signal to the tach. Without Gene's intervention the boat might still be sitting at that shop. Mike and Gene have sinced secured Absolute Speed and Marine to be their Havasu warranty center. I think everyone on this board respects Absolute so you can understand that Gene and Mike wanted nothing but the best for its Havasu based customers. BTW...I brought back the invoice for over $400 to Gene for the shop's work and he cut me a check on the spot.
After a few more months as the 2005 season was ending, we decided to bring the boat back to Valencia for Howard to correct a couple of other little issues like a tiny hydraulic leak in the trim tabs, a throttle that would quite stay in place (Livorsi offshore controls) and a little gel scuffs. No charge and the happlily stored our boat for the two weeks between the time we brought it back and when we were going back to Havasu - no charge for storage. Mike Willen met us on a Sunday afternoon when we brought the boat to them - taking him away from his family that day. Great service again.
With both Gene and Mike plus all of the shop staff I feel like they are almost family. I know I can be a bothersome pest and certainly got in the way taking pictures of the entire build process from the taping of the mold to when we took the "sea trials". NOTHING BUT GREAT EXPERIENCES.
Now...to the other issues brought about by this thread....
I was sitting in Gene's office the day that Michael placed his order for the Red Barron. He NEVER took a ride in one prior to ordering. First mistake. Gene, at the time recommended he go with the Mercury Racing HP525 but Michael was intent, at that time, to want a Teague 900 (I think that was the model but it was certainly a Teague big motor). Gene tried to dissaude Michael from this but as he said to me after taking the order - the customer is right and will get what he wants. I don't know when Gary Taylor got involved and sold him on the idea of using one of his motors so I can't comment. I watched the Red Barron being built with Gary doing some or all of the rigging - even while Gary was NOT a Howard employee but doing it in and around his regular job and his motor building business. I have met and talked with Gary many, many times and have the utmost respect for him. Great guy. Never bought anything from him but listening to him talk with others I've only seen him be upfront and honest. Complete FANATIC about the quality of his work. I know the work took especially long to complete the Red Barron due to Gary's schedule and the his dedication to be perfect. This is a one of a kind boat.
There is a thread on this board as well about the buildup of the Red Barron I believe that everyone should read.
Now my commentary....while never having met Michael and not knowing him, I am still going to make some observations...
1) I think the Red Barron scaried the crap out of him and he wasn't comfortable at the edges of the performance envelope. Single engine V hulls going 100 mph is rarified air. I personally think he crapped his pants and never learned to drive this boat at those elevated speeds. Being a pilot doesn't make him a qualified boater just by association. If he didn't like it just man up and say so. Take the hit instead of blaming Gary or Gene. If he was treated badly by either it was only due to an unreasonableness about what is truly his bad decision to buy a boat untried and at such an elevated performance level. Controlling ultra performance equipment takes time and commitment - you just don't learn it over night. Let me make an analogy...if I am a great boat driver - say as good as Bob Teague - does that make me a skilled pilot that should be entrusted with the lives of 300+ passengers? HELL NO.
2) Having personally been involved with very high performance racing I can attest that NO brand new, unique combination is without some tweaking and adjustment to find the EXACT combination that works the best. If the experimentation necessary to achieve the ultra performance was distastful, Michael had NO EXCUSE but his OWN FAULT for it. He wanted the cachet fo being in the ultra performance owners group WITHOUT the dues being paid to get there. No sympathy for him from me.
3) As to dealings with Gary Taylor and Gene Willen, you get as much back as you sow. I've dealt with Gene and found him to be very helpful and courteous before and during the purchase; during the build process; and certainly after care necessary when buying a custom piece of artwork. I havn't dealt with Gary professionally but from what I've witnessed he certainly is a perfectionist.
The Howard Bullets I find to be some of the most stable and best handling boats around. This is echoed by Bob Teague no less who drove Gary's boat to well over 100 mph - commenting on multiple occasions how increadibly stable the Bullet is at those rarified speeds. I respect Bob Teague's many accomplishments and his opinions. While every boat's individual setup might be slightly different because of the exact combination of components I think the original owner gave up when he wasn't willing to put in the effort to become familiar with it. The 28 Bullet has won Powerboat's Sport Boat of the year 4 times so it can't be too bad, can it?
If all of you who are interested in this thread care to reread the following: http://***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86523&highlight=%22Red+barron%22 you will understand the efforts Gary Taylor went to make sure the Michael had a good experience. Page three especially is telling.
Those of you who haven't driven or ridden in a Howard Bullet should do so before commenting on their appropriateness for any kind of conditions. I've driven ours to nearly 80 mph with no handling issues at all. In the worst conditions that Havasu has dished out in the last two years the boat is phenomenal. Extremely stable. While not the ocean (who cares - not me) Havasu can be nasty on stormy days or big weekends on Saturday afternoon. I've also driven in nasty conditions at Lake Mohave will perfect stability. I would recommend this boat to anyone who desires the utmost in quality and attention to detail. Pricy - yes but you get what you pay for in life. Some say the Bullet is small for a 28' boat - again who cares? It measures 28' by the standard measurement employed - end to end! Does it have a high freeboard? No - but that's it's beauty. It doesn't look like a pig in the water as some do. Is it dry riding - absolutely and even is some really nasty crap that I've driven through.
AMEN. DITTO with my 25

Troubles No More
07-14-2007, 06:11 AM
First let me say that I've been away from the Hot Boat board for awhile due to not being able to get to it from the office and little time available in the evenings to get on. But after reading 3+ pages of this thread I must put in my two cents worth...
First...In 2005 we ordered our 28' Howard Bullet and the process was nothing short of spectacularly pleasant. Yes, the price is high but the quality and follow-up customer service is exceptional. We ordered it in April of 2005 for a scheduled build start of June 1 and promised delivery date of late July. Both dates were met. I was there at the shop almost every day once the baot came out of the mold since it is near my house. I was treated with exceptional courtesy and respect for every request I made along the way. Both Gene and Mike were willing to customize just about anything we wanted. The build took time and after watching the details of the construction I can say I don't believe there is a finer organization for truly magnificent boats. It's maiden voyage was at Castaic with Gene the day before we pulled it to Havasu where its permanent home is. Gene took as much time as we wanted in the orientation and shakedown. That was on a Friday night well after business hours. They stored it overnight for us to pick up on Saturday morning. Being concerned about the long tow and doubtful weather predictions Mike Willen had the crew shrinkwrap the boat for the tow. Yes, I did pay for that since I asked for it but I thought the $200 was reasonable seeing as to how the crew was gone for the day on Friday when we came back from Castaic and the boat was ready for us to take at 9:00 AM the next day. Exceptional service.
Like every new boat a couple of little things needed some attention after delivery. The main issue was a tach that would rev to exactly 4,000 RPM and drop to 0 as it passed that point. I called Gene from Havasu and he said bring back the tach and he'd replace it. When I did, Gene walked next door to Teague and brought me another Autometer tach. I put the tach back in when we returned to Havasu two weeks later - same thing. When I called Gene he said to either bring the boat back from Havasu and they would go through it or take it to a Mercury authorized shop there and he'd take care of the charges. I took the later route. Unfortunately, I took it to a shop (not Howard's current warranty shop in Havasu - Absolute but another local shop) who struggled to find the true cause of the problem. After they had the boat for 3 weeks - sitting outside for the entire time unless it was being worked on - I called Gene again and asked what I should do. Gene said he'd contact Mercury Racing (HP525 in the boat). Next day, Mercury Racing's tech guru called my Havasu shop and within 2 days the problem was solved. It turned out that Mercury Racing sent the wrong harness with the motor and a resistor had to be put inline with a wire to correctly send a proper signal to the tach. Without Gene's intervention the boat might still be sitting at that shop. Mike and Gene have sinced secured Absolute Speed and Marine to be their Havasu warranty center. I think everyone on this board respects Absolute so you can understand that Gene and Mike wanted nothing but the best for its Havasu based customers. BTW...I brought back the invoice for over $400 to Gene for the shop's work and he cut me a check on the spot.
After a few more months as the 2005 season was ending, we decided to bring the boat back to Valencia for Howard to correct a couple of other little issues like a tiny hydraulic leak in the trim tabs, a throttle that would quite stay in place (Livorsi offshore controls) and a little gel scuffs. No charge and the happlily stored our boat for the two weeks between the time we brought it back and when we were going back to Havasu - no charge for storage. Mike Willen met us on a Sunday afternoon when we brought the boat to them - taking him away from his family that day. Great service again.
With both Gene and Mike plus all of the shop staff I feel like they are almost family. I know I can be a bothersome pest and certainly got in the way taking pictures of the entire build process from the taping of the mold to when we took the "sea trials". NOTHING BUT GREAT EXPERIENCES.
Now...to the other issues brought about by this thread....
I was sitting in Gene's office the day that Michael placed his order for the Red Barron. He NEVER took a ride in one prior to ordering. First mistake. Gene, at the time recommended he go with the Mercury Racing HP525 but Michael was intent, at that time, to want a Teague 900 (I think that was the model but it was certainly a Teague big motor). Gene tried to dissaude Michael from this but as he said to me after taking the order - the customer is right and will get what he wants. I don't know when Gary Taylor got involved and sold him on the idea of using one of his motors so I can't comment. I watched the Red Barron being built with Gary doing some or all of the rigging - even while Gary was NOT a Howard employee but doing it in and around his regular job and his motor building business. I have met and talked with Gary many, many times and have the utmost respect for him. Great guy. Never bought anything from him but listening to him talk with others I've only seen him be upfront and honest. Complete FANATIC about the quality of his work. I know the work took especially long to complete the Red Barron due to Gary's schedule and the his dedication to be perfect. This is a one of a kind boat.
There is a thread on this board as well about the buildup of the Red Barron I believe that everyone should read.
Now my commentary....while never having met Michael and not knowing him, I am still going to make some observations...
1) I think the Red Barron scaried the crap out of him and he wasn't comfortable at the edges of the performance envelope. Single engine V hulls going 100 mph is rarified air. I personally think he crapped his pants and never learned to drive this boat at those elevated speeds. Being a pilot doesn't make him a qualified boater just by association. If he didn't like it just man up and say so. Take the hit instead of blaming Gary or Gene. If he was treated badly by either it was only due to an unreasonableness about what is truly his bad decision to buy a boat untried and at such an elevated performance level. Controlling ultra performance equipment takes time and commitment - you just don't learn it over night. Let me make an analogy...if I am a great boat driver - say as good as Bob Teague - does that make me a skilled pilot that should be entrusted with the lives of 300+ passengers? HELL NO.
2) Having personally been involved with very high performance racing I can attest that NO brand new, unique combination is without some tweaking and adjustment to find the EXACT combination that works the best. If the experimentation necessary to achieve the ultra performance was distastful, Michael had NO EXCUSE but his OWN FAULT for it. He wanted the cachet fo being in the ultra performance owners group WITHOUT the dues being paid to get there. No sympathy for him from me.
3) As to dealings with Gary Taylor and Gene Willen, you get as much back as you sow. I've dealt with Gene and found him to be very helpful and courteous before and during the purchase; during the build process; and certainly after care necessary when buying a custom piece of artwork. I havn't dealt with Gary professionally but from what I've witnessed he certainly is a perfectionist.
The Howard Bullets I find to be some of the most stable and best handling boats around. This is echoed by Bob Teague no less who drove Gary's boat to well over 100 mph - commenting on multiple occasions how increadibly stable the Bullet is at those rarified speeds. I respect Bob Teague's many accomplishments and his opinions. While every boat's individual setup might be slightly different because of the exact combination of components I think the original owner gave up when he wasn't willing to put in the effort to become familiar with it. The 28 Bullet has won Powerboat's Sport Boat of the year 4 times so it can't be too bad, can it?
If all of you who are interested in this thread care to reread the following: http://***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86523&highlight=%22Red+barron%22 you will understand the efforts Gary Taylor went to make sure the Michael had a good experience. Page three especially is telling.
Those of you who haven't driven or ridden in a Howard Bullet should do so before commenting on their appropriateness for any kind of conditions. I've driven ours to nearly 80 mph with no handling issues at all. In the worst conditions that Havasu has dished out in the last two years the boat is phenomenal. Extremely stable. While not the ocean (who cares - not me) Havasu can be nasty on stormy days or big weekends on Saturday afternoon. I've also driven in nasty conditions at Lake Mohave will perfect stability. I would recommend this boat to anyone who desires the utmost in quality and attention to detail. Pricy - yes but you get what you pay for in life. Some say the Bullet is small for a 28' boat - again who cares? It measures 28' by the standard measurement employed - end to end! Does it have a high freeboard? No - but that's it's beauty. It doesn't look like a pig in the water as some do. Is it dry riding - absolutely and even is some really nasty crap that I've driven through.
I’m not sure what took place and I can only comment on my experience with Howard Boats.
I spent some time shopping for a boat and was not happy with the people trying to shoehorn me into something that they had on the showroom floor. A friend referred me to Howard and I check with other Howard customers before I went to the shop. Rave reviews from everyone that had a Howard boat.
Gene and Mike at Howard took the time to make sure I was happy with the boat. That were knowledgeable, extremely helpful, patient and completely professional during every step of the building/buying process.
I would strongly recommend them to anyone looking for a great boat.
My .02

Lavey29
07-14-2007, 08:45 AM
I will also say that Gene at Howard is a really nice guy who is very proud of his boats. He spent a good hour and half showing me his work and during my conversations with him on the phone or the boat show he always takes the time to answer all of your questions.

HavasuHome
07-14-2007, 09:51 AM
First let me say that I've been away from the Hot Boat board for awhile due to not being able to get to it from the office and little time available in the evenings to get on. But after reading 3+ pages of this thread I must put in my two cents worth...
First...In 2005 we ordered our 28' Howard Bullet and the process was nothing short of spectacularly pleasant. Yes, the price is high but the quality and follow-up customer service is exceptional. We ordered it in April of 2005 for a scheduled build start of June 1 and promised delivery date of late July. Both dates were met. I was there at the shop almost every day once the baot came out of the mold since it is near my house. I was treated with exceptional courtesy and respect for every request I made along the way. Both Gene and Mike were willing to customize just about anything we wanted. The build took time and after watching the details of the construction I can say I don't believe there is a finer organization for truly magnificent boats. It's maiden voyage was at Castaic with Gene the day before we pulled it to Havasu where its permanent home is. Gene took as much time as we wanted in the orientation and shakedown. That was on a Friday night well after business hours. They stored it overnight for us to pick up on Saturday morning. Being concerned about the long tow and doubtful weather predictions Mike Willen had the crew shrinkwrap the boat for the tow. Yes, I did pay for that since I asked for it but I thought the $200 was reasonable seeing as to how the crew was gone for the day on Friday when we came back from Castaic and the boat was ready for us to take at 9:00 AM the next day. Exceptional service.
Like every new boat a couple of little things needed some attention after delivery. The main issue was a tach that would rev to exactly 4,000 RPM and drop to 0 as it passed that point. I called Gene from Havasu and he said bring back the tach and he'd replace it. When I did, Gene walked next door to Teague and brought me another Autometer tach. I put the tach back in when we returned to Havasu two weeks later - same thing. When I called Gene he said to either bring the boat back from Havasu and they would go through it or take it to a Mercury authorized shop there and he'd take care of the charges. I took the later route. Unfortunately, I took it to a shop (not Howard's current warranty shop in Havasu - Absolute but another local shop) who struggled to find the true cause of the problem. After they had the boat for 3 weeks - sitting outside for the entire time unless it was being worked on - I called Gene again and asked what I should do. Gene said he'd contact Mercury Racing (HP525 in the boat). Next day, Mercury Racing's tech guru called my Havasu shop and within 2 days the problem was solved. It turned out that Mercury Racing sent the wrong harness with the motor and a resistor had to be put inline with a wire to correctly send a proper signal to the tach. Without Gene's intervention the boat might still be sitting at that shop. Mike and Gene have sinced secured Absolute Speed and Marine to be their Havasu warranty center. I think everyone on this board respects Absolute so you can understand that Gene and Mike wanted nothing but the best for its Havasu based customers. BTW...I brought back the invoice for over $400 to Gene for the shop's work and he cut me a check on the spot.
After a few more months as the 2005 season was ending, we decided to bring the boat back to Valencia for Howard to correct a couple of other little issues like a tiny hydraulic leak in the trim tabs, a throttle that would quite stay in place (Livorsi offshore controls) and a little gel scuffs. No charge and the happlily stored our boat for the two weeks between the time we brought it back and when we were going back to Havasu - no charge for storage. Mike Willen met us on a Sunday afternoon when we brought the boat to them - taking him away from his family that day. Great service again.
With both Gene and Mike plus all of the shop staff I feel like they are almost family. I know I can be a bothersome pest and certainly got in the way taking pictures of the entire build process from the taping of the mold to when we took the "sea trials". NOTHING BUT GREAT EXPERIENCES.
Now...to the other issues brought about by this thread....
I was sitting in Gene's office the day that Michael placed his order for the Red Barron. He NEVER took a ride in one prior to ordering. First mistake. Gene, at the time recommended he go with the Mercury Racing HP525 but Michael was intent, at that time, to want a Teague 900 (I think that was the model but it was certainly a Teague big motor). Gene tried to dissaude Michael from this but as he said to me after taking the order - the customer is right and will get what he wants. I don't know when Gary Taylor got involved and sold him on the idea of using one of his motors so I can't comment. I watched the Red Barron being built with Gary doing some or all of the rigging - even while Gary was NOT a Howard employee but doing it in and around his regular job and his motor building business. I have met and talked with Gary many, many times and have the utmost respect for him. Great guy. Never bought anything from him but listening to him talk with others I've only seen him be upfront and honest. Complete FANATIC about the quality of his work. I know the work took especially long to complete the Red Barron due to Gary's schedule and the his dedication to be perfect. This is a one of a kind boat.
There is a thread on this board as well about the buildup of the Red Barron I believe that everyone should read.
Now my commentary....while never having met Michael and not knowing him, I am still going to make some observations...
1) I think the Red Barron scaried the crap out of him and he wasn't comfortable at the edges of the performance envelope. Single engine V hulls going 100 mph is rarified air. I personally think he crapped his pants and never learned to drive this boat at those elevated speeds. Being a pilot doesn't make him a qualified boater just by association. If he didn't like it just man up and say so. Take the hit instead of blaming Gary or Gene. If he was treated badly by either it was only due to an unreasonableness about what is truly his bad decision to buy a boat untried and at such an elevated performance level. Controlling ultra performance equipment takes time and commitment - you just don't learn it over night. Let me make an analogy...if I am a great boat driver - say as good as Bob Teague - does that make me a skilled pilot that should be entrusted with the lives of 300+ passengers? HELL NO.
2) Having personally been involved with very high performance racing I can attest that NO brand new, unique combination is without some tweaking and adjustment to find the EXACT combination that works the best. If the experimentation necessary to achieve the ultra performance was distastful, Michael had NO EXCUSE but his OWN FAULT for it. He wanted the cachet fo being in the ultra performance owners group WITHOUT the dues being paid to get there. No sympathy for him from me.
3) As to dealings with Gary Taylor and Gene Willen, you get as much back as you sow. I've dealt with Gene and found him to be very helpful and courteous before and during the purchase; during the build process; and certainly after care necessary when buying a custom piece of artwork. I havn't dealt with Gary professionally but from what I've witnessed he certainly is a perfectionist.
The Howard Bullets I find to be some of the most stable and best handling boats around. This is echoed by Bob Teague no less who drove Gary's boat to well over 100 mph - commenting on multiple occasions how increadibly stable the Bullet is at those rarified speeds. I respect Bob Teague's many accomplishments and his opinions. While every boat's individual setup might be slightly different because of the exact combination of components I think the original owner gave up when he wasn't willing to put in the effort to become familiar with it. The 28 Bullet has won Powerboat's Sport Boat of the year 4 times so it can't be too bad, can it?
If all of you who are interested in this thread care to reread the following: http://***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86523&highlight=%22Red+barron%22 you will understand the efforts Gary Taylor went to make sure the Michael had a good experience. Page three especially is telling.
Those of you who haven't driven or ridden in a Howard Bullet should do so before commenting on their appropriateness for any kind of conditions. I've driven ours to nearly 80 mph with no handling issues at all. In the worst conditions that Havasu has dished out in the last two years the boat is phenomenal. Extremely stable. While not the ocean (who cares - not me) Havasu can be nasty on stormy days or big weekends on Saturday afternoon. I've also driven in nasty conditions at Lake Mohave will perfect stability. I would recommend this boat to anyone who desires the utmost in quality and attention to detail. Pricy - yes but you get what you pay for in life. Some say the Bullet is small for a 28' boat - again who cares? It measures 28' by the standard measurement employed - end to end! Does it have a high freeboard? No - but that's it's beauty. It doesn't look like a pig in the water as some do. Is it dry riding - absolutely and even is some really nasty crap that I've driven through.
I have to agree completely with what Mike has said. Our experience with Mike and Gene have been nothing short of fantastic.

BLOWN HOWARD
07-14-2007, 02:15 PM
I think Cleakfork needs to go and GT needs to stay on the boards. I am pretty sure more people have gotten more helpful info from GT and not clearfork. Somebody start a poll!!!!:D :D :D :D :eek:

Pantera28
07-14-2007, 05:24 PM
I do not know the parties involved other than my dealings with Gary Taylor.
I have never met Gary personally, but I am a customer and sent him one of the largest checks I've ever written in my life. I did this with someone thousands of miles away (I'm in IL) and did it based on his reputation, the quality of his engines and the rave reviews of owners of anything he builds. To accuse him of charging too much or not going far above and beyond his resposibility is simply propaganda and untrue. He is the most thorough, meticulous and pleasant people that you would ever deal with in an industry filled with scammers and con men.
It is in poor judgment and extremely ignorant of "Nashvillewhatever" to post half truths on a public forum regarding a product that he didn't buy.
As for Micheal, you contradict yourself by saying Gary didn't step up and he did offer to help, etc... If you sold the boat, and walked away, then why did you friend start this here?
Your masters degree and pilots license doesn't mean you can drive a boat. So why tell everyone about them? An intelligent man doesn't pull stunts like this in a public forum. From the replies you've seen here. it appears that you are the issue, not Howard Boats or TPI.
Patience grasshopper!!
Gary, you leaving the forums does not benefit anyone and to let an issue such as this chase you away is terrible. You have many supporters here and you are good for the industry. Please stay on the forum.

TCN
07-14-2007, 06:29 PM
I agree with Mike F's post too. Gene, Mike and don't forget Bill in the back are great. If you guys remember a few years ago Nashville Bound bought a Magic Deck Boat and was bashing them everyday too. I think this is just his way of doing business. Nick

HammerDown
07-15-2007, 12:02 PM
If I may quote someone...
"I guess this will have to be handled off the forums."
Sounds like a great idea!