Speed, booze and safety

[Bite the Bullet]

Recently, a member of the high performance boating community was involved in a fatal boat accident. I would rather not discuss that incident, but focus on speed, drinking, and safety in general on Lake Havasu. For the sake of this discussion, I would like to consider a speed in excess of 80 MPH as "high speed". I have read and heard boaters declare that they can safely operate their lake rocket at 100 plus MPH with their wife and small children aboard. I personally disagree with that logic.
What does the HOT BOAT community think? Personally, I love watching fast boats, especially at the quarter mile track. But, between Havasu and the Sandbar, I have witnessed boats approach me from both front and rear in excess of 100 mph with only about 40' of clearence....it made me a little nervous....SO....how fast is dangerous....is 80 MPH fast....should high speed be accomplished with passengers on board....should they wear LIFELINE life jackets at high speed....if not at 80, then what speed should life jackets be worn....where is a safe place to travel high speed....what locations/areas are not safe....is high speed a good idea on weekends....should you be drinking and operate a boat at high speed....if drinking is acceptable, then how many....should children be aboard.... how much distance between boats is acceptable when approaching or passing another boat at high speed....is high speed safe in front of Copper Canyon, Windsor or the Sandbar....anybody in favor of speed limits....do we need policing....I know the phrase "common sense" will show up here....but sadly, it's not always in use.
This topic is not black and white....what do you think? BTB

[brianthomas]

Around here you cannot operate a boat on plane any closer than 300 feet from another vessel or the shore. I know it is busy in some areas but that means SLOW THE HELL DOWN!

[Tom Brown]

RI have read and heard boaters declare that they can safely operate their lake rocket at 100 plus MPH with their wife and small children aboard. I personally disagree with that logic.
I disagree with your disagreement.
My boat is extremely small. At 80 mph, my boat is far more dangerous than a 30+ foot cat at 150 mph. Any of the large cats of the modern era can comfortably handle 100 mph with little danger in wide open water. There are lots of V hulls that are comfortable and safe at 100 mph too.
I would suggest it's not valid to pick an arbitrary number and pin a "safe below / unsafe above" moniker on it. Size, hull design, and conditions are far more important than the actual speed number.

[ratso]

By myself... any speed goes depending on conditions. With passengers though... common sense. I'd hate to see speed limits imposed everywhere although I'm sure it's coming. Kind of a tough question to answer right there. A friend of mine has a 19 ft 100 mph boat, and he thinks it's just fine to run 100 no matter who is on board. I told him if I ever catch him again running like that with my son or any family members, I'll knock his fukkin' head off... he has had a couple of close calls... You can't fix stupid, but because of idiots like him, we have these laws imposed on us.

[jbone]

should you be drinking and operate a boat at high speed....if drinking is acceptable, then how many....
Does this even deserve an answer:idea:
J

[Glamasu]

Does this even deserve an answer:idea:
J
The whole subject has been talked about, argued, to death......what you will find out is if you have 20+ yrs on a boat its ok to have a drink...If your on your first boat then your way more dangerouse than I am with a few cocktails down.
While there are laws thats govern several of these issues...They only count if you get caught.
As far as the speed ...Well somebody is always gonna be the "Show Off" and that is they guy that will usually have the most problems...Alot of times people look over their shoulders and see someone coming fast and instead of holding their course thay panic and try to "get out of the way"...Thats a mistake...I know if I'm overtaking a boat at speed I have already picked my route AROUND you.....As soon as someone panics and starts making abrupt changes thats when it goes bad.
100+ mph in front of the sandbar,Windsor....No I wouldn't do it...

[Glamasu]

By myself... any speed goes depending on conditions. With passengers though... common sense. I'd hate to see speed limits imposed everywhere although I'm sure it's coming. Kind of a tough question to answer right there. A friend of mine has a 19 ft 100 mph boat, and he thinks it's just fine to run 100 no matter who is on board. I told him if I ever catch him again running like that with my son or any family members, I'll knock his fukkin' head off... he has had a couple of close calls... You can't fix stupid, but because of idiots like him, we have these laws imposed on us.
100mph Jet boat....My kids wouldn't be in it unless I was driving...

[HotRod82]

Sorry guys, but anything over 60 in close quarters OR with people you actually care about is incredibly dangerous. Think about the fact that you have NO BRAKES. Then think about the fact you have no seat belts, and virtually no protection what so ever in the event of a collision. Would you let your 5 year old kid stand on the front seat of your pick up truck while going 75 MPH through a busy intersection? I have witnessed 2 nasty high speed crashes involving boats and they were very sobering. (1 fatality, the rest left in the meat wagon) Ever seen what water will to the human body at 80MPH? I guess it comes down to how lucky you feel.....but the fact is if ANYTHING goes wrong at 80mph on the water it gets ugly in a hurry.

[77charger]

This comes up alot.But around here i think it is determined by the brand boat you own and your ***boat.com post count wheter you are qualified to go hi speeds wheter you are experienced or not cause the rules will not apply to you.:sleeping:

[jbone]

The whole subject has been talked about, argued, to death......what you will find out is if you have 20+ yrs on a boat its ok to have a drink...If your on your first boat then your way more dangerouse than I am with a few cocktails down.
While there are laws thats govern several of these issues...They only count if you get caught.
If you choose to drink and boat, you are asking for trouble. If you crash, or someone crashes into you and you are even slightly impared, you WILL go to jail.
At work, we've done tests to check your theory. While monitoring drinks, and checking bac, and putting people through basic tests, most have drastically reduced reactions times at well under .08.
Alot of times people look over their shoulders and see someone coming fast and instead of holding their course thay panic and try to "get out of the way"...Thats a mistake...I know if I'm overtaking a boat at speed I have already picked my route AROUND you.....As soon as someone panics and starts making abrupt changes thats when it goes bad.
In my opinion, you should wait to show off until there is nobody in your path. If someone in front of you "panics" and makes a change of course and you can't respond safety, you are going too fast.
I like to go fast too, but my boat only goes 70 on a good day. Still, I would never do that overtaking someone.
J

[Rexone]

My boat is extremely small. At 80 mph, my boat is far more dangerous than a 30+ foot cat at 150 mph.
I'm guessing that's because you'd be under tow by one of those cats to reach 80 mph.

[Glamasu]

If you choose to drink and boat, you are asking for trouble. If you crash, or someone crashes into you and you are even slightly impared, you WILL go to jail.
At work, we've done tests to check your theory. While monitoring drinks, and checking bac, and putting people through basic tests, most have drastically reduced reactions times at well under .08.
In my opinion, you should wait to show off until there is nobody in your path. If someone in front of you "panics" and makes a change of course and you can't respond safety, you are going too fast.
I like to go fast too, but my boat only goes 70 on a good day
Still, I would never do that overtaking someone.
J
Valid point...Can't argue with the facts....(Though many will try:D )
If you cruise at 35mph and I cruise at 60mph...I wouldn't consider that "Showing off"...The guy doing 100+ infront of the sandbar...Thats showing off.

[Tom Brown]

I'm guessing that's because you'd be under tow by one of those cats to reach 80 mph.
I was speaking in terms of eBay speed. That's 50 mph to me and you.

[Cheap Thrills]

How fast is too fast ?
Well It all depends on the boat , The conditions and Driver abilities.
This comes up alot.But around here i think it is determined by the brand boat you own and your ***boat.com post count wheter you are qualified to go hi speeds wheter you are experienced or not cause the rules will not apply to you.:sleeping:
I have to agree as far as THIS forum goes.
Also it seems like every other week someone dies on the west end due to fast boats & alcohol . What the hell is wrong with you people ?
Boat ownership is up nearly 20% here and boating related accedents are down 4%. , 4% Isn't alot but at least it is down.
I have no desire to run a hundred Mph down the lake. I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere. I'm there to relax and the first SOB that endangers my relaxation time by blowing by me at 100mph at a near miss is going to get a .12Ga flare across the bow and my size 11 D in their ass.
Look , Listen, Be aware of your surroundings and if you use half the common sense God gave a fuĉking goose your boating activities will be as safe and fun filled as the east side.
C.T. Fired that shot. and I'm back out !

[driverno8]

My boat tops out around 65 on a good day with a normal load. I'm usually in the 45-50 range with adults. But with my kids (or any kids) I'm rolling at 30-35 (maybe 40 if no one's around) tabs down, just enjoying the time off from work.
You know that old saying about the only person on a deck that wants to go faster is the driver. What about other boats? There's times I'm on other peoples boats thinking what the hell man slow down. Even on bigger and faster boats then mine, that aren't decks, with more experience I don't have a good time at high speeds. I don't feel in control. It's a weird feeling.
As for the drinking and boating....Gatoraid and water when the kids are with me. It's my responsibility as a parent to keep my kids safe. And cracking a few beers and driving them around isn't keeping them safe. The cold ones get cracked back at the house. When it's a non-kid weekend, heck ya I'll have a few. But even then it's only 6 for the entire day. If you only bring six with you, you can limit how much you're going to have.

[Bite the Bullet]

[QUOTE=Tom Brown;2682952]I disagree with your disagreement.
My boat is extremely small. At 80 mph, my boat is far more dangerous than a 30+ foot cat at 150 mph. Any of the large cats of the modern era can comfortably handle 100 mph with little danger in wide open water. There are lots of V hulls that are comfortable and safe at 100 mph too.
IMO...A modern 30' plus cat at 100 MPH "in wide open water" is probably a smooth ride...an engine failure at that speed may be very controllable as well....but at 150, the margin of error clearly begins to shrink. I don't know the speeds being traveled by Flash Gordon and Nashville Cats when they crashed, but the results were devastating to say the least. It seems that in Havasu, the lake conditions are not always considered when the need for speed arises. I would guess that most of us have witnessed an incident ot two that everyone would agree is dangerous and unsafe. Maybe that unsafe boater will read this thread and realize it pertains to him. I also believe I'm in Fantasy Land for thinking it!:D

[Tom Brown]

IMO...A modern 30' plus cat at 100 MPH "in wide open water" is probably a smooth ride...an engine failure at that speed may be very controllable as well....but at 150, the margin of error clearly begins to shrink.
Agreed.
Please notice I didn't say a 30+' cat was safe at 150 mph, just that it is safer than my boat at 80 mph. The point being, some hulls are more competent at speed than others.

[gqchris]

Anyone doing 100 MPH with their children and wife on board is just plain senseless. Lets take out both parents in the event of an accident, right? I have a best friend that has a bike. When I first met him, I asked him if his now ex-wife was coming on the ride with us. He said No, she never comes. I was like Why? He said, if we get in an accident, which is highly probable, I wont make my daughter "parentless". Made so much sense. But I see it all the time at the poker runs. Amazes me. Mom holding an infant in the passenger bolster seat!!!!!:mad:
Boating is just like biking. Its not IF you will get in an accident, its WHEN.

[Prop Rod]

personally speaking, with my family in the boat we run about 40-45 depending on conditions, when over taking a boat i will usually gradually gain on them then accelerate enough to get past them then return to my normal speed. I DONT ever go railing by someone @ 90 just for the heck of it.
I always make it a good practice to think that the other boat doesnt see me, (drive defensivly) or that they are going to do the worst possible thing.
Touchy subject, but a good one. :idea:

[gqchris]

I have no desire to run a hundred Mph down the lake. I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere. I'm there to relax and the first SOB that endangers my relaxation time by blowing by me at 100mph at a near miss is going to get a .12Ga flare across the bow and my size 11 D in their ass.
!
I just found my new signature line!!! Amen Brotha!!!

[Jbb]

I'm guessing that's because you'd be under tow by one of those cats to reach 80 mph.
My thoughts exactly........Have another drink Mr Lah.....err Brown....:D

[ratso]

100mph Jet boat....My kids wouldn't be in it unless I was driving...
I don't care for mine to be in ANY boat at that speed, not even with me. Sure, some boats run that speed safely, until something breaks, then it's usually the dumbass driver that lives while others die.:jawdrop: The Nashville Katz and Flash Gordon wreck, as posted earlier, is a great example of boats "safe" at high speeds. I think one lived while 5 died...http://www.***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif and to top it off, I haven't seen many jet boats with seating for passengers that run over 100 lol...:D

[ratso]

And you lose a motor in a jet, no steering... Real bright there Turbo.;)

[lucky]

took my mom out in a large lake a couple of weeks ago , her fiirst real ride in my boat . I have a 21' howard blown v drive . My fathers boat is a 18 jet . We where messing around on the large lake and typicaly my 64 yo mom would scream when in my fathers boat , while at wot in chop and at times airing out - both boats running neck in neck , my mom was comfortable enough to snap a few pics of Old pops getting left :) so it definalty is all What boat you have - If she was in my fathers boat...... well she wouldn't be :D

[SummerBreeze]

Most of us don't know how to drive at speeds around 80 plus. Manely because we don't have much seat time at these speeds. If you are a racer you are more experenced at greater speeds.
If you have a boat that can run at over 100... How many times have you been at greater speeds over 80 and for how many hours... or minutes?
"Whats your seat time" most of us are rookies at speeds.
Pleasure Boat related mishaps at speeds is a great concern on Havasu or any other lake.
If you drive your boat at greater speeds you might be considered a racer for the day. Racers prepare for the race with protective gear. (Helmets, life vests)
I don't see many racers with their wife and toddlers on board.
There is a time to race and a time not to.
Many times on Havasu by the Sand Bar By Windsor By Copper Canyon is not the time to race. It's a time to slow down and beware.
If you find it nessesary to drive by some of these places going fast you might be concidered a
"Pit Racer". "The Worst Kind" Unskilled, Unprepared, With the Wrong Conditions.
DON'T BE THAT GUY

[SB]

I guess similar rules apply as with a car or snow skiing.
My minivan is fairly safe up to a certain speed. A corvette could safely go much faster. Yet the corvette would still have to aware that another car could change lanes ahead of it.
Skiing downhill, (speeds keep increasing due to improvements in skis and grooming), you have to watch out for the beginner that might wipe out in front of you.
Finally, when you are on a collision course, change your course and speed.

[Havasu Hangin']

I don't care for mine to be in ANY boat at that speed, not even with me. Sure, some boats run that speed safely, until something breaks, then it's usually the dumbass driver that lives while others die.:jawdrop: The Nashville Katz and Flash Gordon wreck, as posted earlier, is a great example of boats "safe" at high speeds. I think one lived while 5 died...
That accident is from two boats running into each other...not just from the speed. If two boats run into each other, it is not going to be pretty at any speed.
Many people (including Dan) have lost motors and/or drives at 150MPH+ and the boat just slows down.

[40FlatDeck]

If you want to run fast, Havasu is tough. So many people during the summer that it is a dangerous situation. I have a local lake here that I can do over 100 runs all day long and feel totally comfortable. Maybe two times a day I will push up to 100, but I make sure I am in the clear.
I had a friends two children in the boat a few weeks ago and we pushed it up to 80 and the little girl fell asleep.:D If I am testing props or looking for a big number we all put on Lifelines, headsets, and lanyards.
I never want to shoot by ANYBODY over 100, that is rude and dangerous, but my boat at 100 your 6 year old could drive

[HotRod82]

If you want to run fast, Havasu is tough. So many people during the summer that it is a dangerous situation. I have a local lake here that I can do over 100 runs all day long and feel totally comfortable. Maybe two times a day I will push up to 100, but I make sure I am in the clear.
I had a friends two children in the boat a few weeks ago and we pushed it up to 80 and the little girl fell asleep.:D If I am testing props or looking for a big number we all put on Lifelines, headsets, and lanyards.
I never want to shoot by ANYBODY over 100, that is rude and dangerous, but my boat at 100 your 6 year old could drive
Totally agree....but a 6 year old could fly a 747 too, but if something goes wrong I wouldn't want to be in it. As I said earlier, it all depends on how lucky you feel. I hit a submerged rock in Ferguson lake a few years back with my Litchfield while towing a skiier at @ 35mph. The sudden stop threw the observer into the dash and ruined her weekend with a couple of nasty bruises. (also caused 10K in damage and nearly sank the boat) Had I hit that any faster who knows what would have happened. Strange part about that whole incident is we had skiied that area for years and never knew that outcrop was even there.

[ratso]

That accident is from two boats running into each other...not just from the speed. If two boats run into each other, it is not going to be pretty at any speed.
Many people (including Dan) have lost motors and/or drives at 150MPH+ and the boat just slows down.
I was under the impression that something broke on one of them and caused one to basically t-bone the other... never heard the final outcome on what happened... only theories. Your theory I guess is that two seasoned drivers just ran into each other???http://www.***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif
Nonetheless... a terrible terrible accident with a lot of innocent people killed.:(

[Havasu Hangin']

I was under the impression that something broke on one of them and caused one to basically t-bone the other... never heard the final outcome on what happened... only theories. Your theory I guess is that two seasoned drivers just ran into each other???http://www.***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif
Nonetheless... a terrible terrible accident with a lot of innocent people killed.:(
No, you are correct. I believe Gordons boat broke and went into the path of the other. My point is that anytime a boat t-bones another boat, people are gonna get hurt- that is not specific to big boats, fast speeds, or mechanical failures.
Lots of guys have mechanical failures at high speeds with no incident. like anything, if a little common sense is exercised (at any speed), our sport is safer. Like cars, higher speeds require a bigger buffer zone...

[Classic Daycruiser]

Too fast is any speed that, if the boat came apart, the chances of swimming away are reduced.
You have to float to be rescued. They are still looking for the extreme wrestler that jumped off a boat last April 2007...Lake Pleasant, AZ. He has not floated to the top yet(4 months).

[Keith E. Sayre]

Great thread Les. For those of you that don't know Les,he was deep into the Cole drag boat thing about 20 years ago and understands what real
"speed" is all about.
Lots of good points made here today in this thread.
All of us can improve in some way but alcohol and driving a high performance
boat of any kind never mix and as recently demonstrated can have catostrophic results.
In addition to the drinking thing, a simple dose of common sense goes
a very long way when trying to determine what speed is appropriate
at a given time.
Keith Sayre
Magic Boats

[C-2]

No, you are correct. I believe Gordons boat broke and went into the path of the other. My point is that anytime a boat t-bones another boat, people are gonna get hurt- that is not specific to big boats, fast speeds, or mechanical failures.
Lots of guys have mechanical failures at high speeds with no incident. like anything, if a little common sense is exercised (at any speed), our sport is safer. Like cars, higher speeds require a bigger buffer zone...
FWIW, Gordon made an aggressive turn in front of Nashville, CAUSING his boat to break, stalling him directly in front of Nashville. The turn was so close, Nashivlle didn't have time to react. Totally uncalled for with tragic results.
Bumper boats due to parts breaking was up North.
People who don't know their own limitations scare me (which is why I scaled down my Havasu trips).:mad:
Most guys with 100-130 mph cats - also scare me.:eek: