View Full Version : Rudder or not?
R/C-PILOT
07-20-2007, 04:58 PM
You guys running with a place diverter, are you using a rudder? Just bought the boat 6 weeks ago. Added a new rudder for the 12JE. Just purchased a "Place diverter" and installed. Unfortunatly I didn't see the part that said ORIGINAL RUDDER DOESN'T WORK, YOU NEED A NEW RUDDER THAT FITS THE PLACE DIVERTER. Kinda wished it would have said that when I bought the diverter, I would have purchased one. WOW, talk about a E-TICKET RIDE! I had to change my BVD'S. Man what a ride. Do all you guy's run a rudder? Or am I just crazy? Any body want to buy a rudder for a 12JE 3 weeks old? Let me know, I'll make you a deal.
MudPumper
07-20-2007, 05:10 PM
This has been covered a million times. Shit can the rudder. I don't care what anybody says, it does nothing to help steer the boat.
boats&bars
07-20-2007, 05:22 PM
This has been covered a million times. Shit can the rudder. I don't care what anybody says, it does nothing to help steer the boat.
I guess the engeneers at place and berkley put it there for shits and giggles....
boats&bars
07-20-2007, 05:24 PM
You guys running with a place diverter, are you using a rudder? Just bought the boat 6 weeks ago. Added a new rudder for the 12JE. Just purchased a "Place diverter" and installed. Unfortunatly I didn't see the part that said ORIGINAL RUDDER DOESN'T WORK, YOU NEED A NEW RUDDER THAT FITS THE PLACE DIVERTER. Kinda wished it would have said that when I bought the diverter, I would have purchased one. WOW, talk about a E-TICKET RIDE! I had to change my BVD'S. Man what a ride. Do all you guy's run a rudder? Or am I just crazy? Any body want to buy a rudder for a 12JE 3 weeks old? Let me know, I'll make you a deal.
what is the size and weight of the boat. my daycruiser steers real bad without a rudder.
R/C-PILOT
07-20-2007, 05:37 PM
Mike, you don't use a rudder? I can't believe that you don't use one. What a change it made when I added the rudder when I didn't have the diverter. I took it out to test it, without a rudder after installing the diverter and all it did was yaw back and forth, I couldn't run a straight line if my live depended on it! Even at idle, back and forth, more so than it did without the diverter. I'm makin a big deal about it cause at 47, I'm in the heart attack years. I can't keep thinking about how it acted like it was on ice at high speeds. What do the rest of you guy's think. To you guys that don't have them, what are you experiencing? It weighs about 1400 lbs, and 16ft.
Heatseeker
07-20-2007, 05:44 PM
IMHO, rudders on jets are completely useless.
R/C-PILOT
07-20-2007, 06:04 PM
Heatseaker, it doesn't make a differance weather you have one on your boat or not? It doesn't handle ANY different? Mine was night and day different. You've been around these for awhile, why does this make such a difference on my boat and not on yours?
MudPumper
07-20-2007, 06:20 PM
Mike, you don't use a rudder? I can't believe that you don't use one. What a change it made when I added the rudder when I didn't have the diverter. I took it out to test it, without a rudder after installing the diverter and all it did was yaw back and forth, I couldn't run a straight line if my live depended on it! Even at idle, back and forth, more so than it did without the diverter. I'm makin a big deal about it cause at 47, I'm in the heart attack years. I can't keep thinking about how it acted like it was on ice at high speeds. What do the rest of you guy's think. To you guys that don't have them, what are you experiencing? It weighs about 1400 lbs, and 16ft.
Nope, 3 boats and never needed one. I don't feel it does anything for control at speed or at idle. If it works for you then run it. I don't know anybody with a jet that runs one. :)
Ken F
07-20-2007, 06:23 PM
They WILL do one thing for you. Slow you down.
MudPumper
07-20-2007, 06:25 PM
I guess the engeneers at place and berkley put it there for shits and giggles....
Who knows. Just because an engineer designs something and puts it on doesn't mean it's worth a shit. Maybe it was something they need to get past insurance. Who knows? I don't see new 21 jets coming out of the factory with rudders on the jets. Why not?:idea: :) If it works for you great, my opinion is that they are worthless.
R/C-PILOT
07-20-2007, 06:39 PM
Guess it just baffles me that it makes no difference on yours and all the difference on mine. My boat weighs approx: 1400lbs and has just about a flat bottom, 16ft long, small block chevy.
CPBRIAN10THMTN
07-20-2007, 08:27 PM
they wont help you much, they are made for ADDED low speed manuverability thats about it and the size of the boat does matter, if you have a big daycruiser it may help, if you have a little flat bottom its not gonna do much for ya.
This has been covered a million times. Shit can the rudder. I don't care what anybody says, it does nothing to help steer the boat.
...and will not last two trips out if you are on the lower river!...Plus it gives good reason to "BLIP" the throttle for no other reason that to straighten the "HOTROD" out, but not under the London Bridge!:D
Who knows. Just because an engineer designs something and puts it on doesn't mean it's worth a shit. Maybe it was something they need to get past insurance. Who knows? I don't see new 21 jets coming out of the factory with rudders on the jets. Why not?:idea: :) If it works for you great, my opinion is that they are worthless.
...worthless as tits on a "Warthog"!
19' and under your prettymuch "WAGGIN THE DOG"!
20" and above, who cares, you are'nt looking for too much performance, in my opinion!
cyclone
07-20-2007, 08:44 PM
I had a rudder on one of my boats. it lasted about an hour before it broke off when i was floating down river through shallow waterin Blythe.
the boat was slightly easier to drive at idle but i still had to oversteer to keep it going in a straight line just like i do now without a rudder.
IMO it will slow you down and it isn't worth the slightly improved low speed maneuverability. you can turn just as well by working the reverse bucket, giving it a bit of throttle and turning the steering wheel.
CPBRIAN10THMTN
07-20-2007, 08:53 PM
...and will not last two trips out if you are on the lower river!...Plus it gives good reason to "BLIP" the throttle for no other reason that to straighten the "HOTROD" out, but not under the London Bridge!:D
Very true!!!!!!:D
Jetaholic
07-20-2007, 10:48 PM
You do not need a rudder with a jet. PERIOD! Mine never had one and I don't ever plan on installing one either.
Jet boats are very much like airplanes in the sense that the faster you're going, the more responsive your controls. So at idle, rudder or not, it won't track a straight line for shit and you have to turn the wheel a lot more to turn it than you would if you were haulin' ass. Everytime I'm coming into the dock I'm always having to turn the wheel all the way in each direction...sometimes I'll just punch the gas just a bit if I have to turn quickly when I'm in the no wake zone.
Another thing...you're in water...you're not gonna track a straight line. Just like an airplane...it moves through air...unless it's on autopilot it will not go completely straight.
Trust these guys...rudders on jets are completely useless.
shaun
07-20-2007, 10:49 PM
I'm thinking about running a rudder to run a test... I'm starting to think the rudder might be there not for low or high speed but for when the motor cuts out :eek:
I have no proof of this, i'm thinking about buying one off ebay or somthing and doing some testing. This last outting my motor cut out on me because the idle was too low and when i got off the throttle it died. Problem was i came off a wake when this happened and found my self heading tword the rocks with no steering and i couldnt get it started back up because my battery was dead... Luckly i was far away but man the boat feels like it stays on plain and cruises forever when your heading for the rocks with no steering!!!!
Anybody done any tests like this to see if the steering semi works when the motor cuts out?
shaun
07-20-2007, 10:51 PM
anybody have a rudder they want to give or sell me for my test :)
OverKill
07-20-2007, 11:18 PM
Thats correct. Put a rudder on and look like a guy that doesn't know what he's doing. I had a really nice polished one and it only lasted one day from all the waves pushing the boat up and down on shore. It was trashed with all kinds of dings. With all the dings means more drag and less speed. IMO it's just a waste of time and money.
pw_Tony
07-20-2007, 11:38 PM
This reminds me of that Sidewinder on craigslist with the welded on rudder things on the nozzle...
now if I could only find a pic:idea:
centerhill condor
07-21-2007, 04:33 AM
the condor didn't come with a rudder nor a place to attach one. Just relax and let the boat do the work as far as steering.
One advantage a rudder gives is that if the engine stops while at speed you can steer the boat away from the crowd. Dan Pasturene (houston oilers fame) would've appreciated a rudder so would the crowd.
Dan Lorenze
07-21-2007, 05:11 AM
I don't see new 21 jets coming out of the factory with rudders on the jets.
Mine did....
maxwedge
07-21-2007, 05:12 AM
This reminds me of that Sidewinder on craigslist with the welded on rudder things on the nozzle...
now if I could only find a pic:idea:
This pic?:D
http://images.craigslist.org/010102010211010310200706255ed532c817488e56ab001cab .jpg
sleekcrafter
07-21-2007, 05:23 AM
This pic?:D
http://images.craigslist.org/010102010211010310200706255ed532c817488e56ab001cab .jpg
That at least gets a point for originallity:D
My southwind had one on it, figured I'd leave it on till i got used to driving a tunnel. I't broke off at a fairly good clip, never did replace it. when used in conjuncion with a droop, I'd have to say it was like the boat was on rails, with out it, it's squirrely, and once you plant you foot you can forget about turning, it just goes straight.
BigBlockOldsJet
07-21-2007, 05:44 AM
not
sstjet
07-21-2007, 06:01 AM
I never run a rudder. I have had three diff types of jet hulls: semi-v, mod-v,and now a tunnel. There was a rudder on the semi-v when we got it but it quickly was lost by random river debris. The steering was not effected though. Like it was said before, If it works for you then use it!! However I boat on the same stretch of river in wilmington Il. all the time, and I bet the rudder don't last 2 outings.
CPBRIAN10THMTN
07-21-2007, 08:24 AM
Know how to drive a jet boat=no rudder, don't know how=run a rudder
If you do alot of skiing the rudder will keep the ass of the boat from movin all over the place when pullin a skier. I always like to see the guys that put a rudder on and try to slide their boat through a turn and bust it off lol. If you wanna go fast, ditch it.
MADDOG355
07-21-2007, 10:11 AM
I'm makin a big deal about it cause at 47, I'm in the heart attack years. I can't keep thinking about how it acted like it was on ice at high speeds. What do the rest of you guy's think. To you guys that don't have them, what are you experiencing? It weighs about 1400 lbs, and 16ft.
If you just want to tighten the boat up at speed a little, where it don't feel so loose. You might consider installing a ride plate, and adjusting it to where the plate angles down a little at the back. This will act like a trim tab and help keep the boat from freeing up so much. It will also slow you down some but it will feel more solid at speed.
kingcole80
07-21-2007, 02:14 PM
i noticed a huge difference in my cole when i addes a rudder
Squirtin Thunder
07-21-2007, 03:40 PM
Know how to drive a jet boat=no rudder, don't know how=run a rudder
If you do alot of skiing the rudder will keep the ass of the boat from movin all over the place when pullin a skier. I always like to see the guys that put a rudder on and try to slide their boat through a turn and bust it off lol. If you wanna go fast, ditch it.
The cj53 can run a little better than 90mph !
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Pict1944.jpg
The cj72 can run low 80s
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Pict1887.jpg
Jim, how much lower does the turnfin hang below the skegged ride plate??
Squirtin Thunder
07-21-2007, 08:04 PM
Todd, rule is 4" below the lowest point of the nozzel housing. Now as for the rudder/tiller pin boss, it is about 3/8" above the rideplate @ 2*.
Does'nt seem like that much to help with the turning styles of a circle boat! Have you ever tried to turn without the fin on the nozzle/...obviously, in a jet, you'de need everything poss. to help with turning, but for shitz and giggles, it would be interesting to see just how benefitial the 2" of turnfin is, dont ya think??
Squirtin Thunder
07-21-2007, 10:02 PM
Does'nt seem like that much to help with the turning styles of a circle boat! Have you ever tried to turn without the fin on the nozzle/...obviously, in a jet, you'de need everything poss. to help with turning, but for shitz and giggles, it would be interesting to see just how benefitial the 2" of turnfin is, dont ya think??
I lean on the fins real hard in the corners, I am as small as I can go on the rudder, I think. The boat has reasponded real well to the changes/additions. I think I could not turn near as well without them. Now the rudder has been shrinking over the races do to an oversteer feel, bitting too hard. As you see it has not much lead.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2311Pict1312.jpg
Totaly diff. picture than the previous, wich one is used when you are driving in circles?...dont you think you have a perfect opportunity, being that you live on the river, to try out a little test?
Im sure alot of people would like to see if at all there is any difference, im sure the fin in your second pic would potentialy bite harder that the first pic, but still would be interesting, 2" aint much in my book!
Todd
Squirtin Thunder
07-21-2007, 10:19 PM
The first pic is very close to the one I am using now. The one in the last pic bit real hard just after the apex of the corners, real spooky. In the first pic there is also a 4* down wedge, I am only running 2* down now. Also the rudder is 3.5" below the plate.
Coming out of turn 2 at Ming in March.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/212.jpg
Squirtin Thunder
07-21-2007, 10:21 PM
Totaly diff. picture than the previous, wich one is used when you are driving in circles?...dont you think you have a perfect opportunity, being that you live on the river, to try out a little test?
Todd
Yes Todd it will get done for you, I think it will be cool to go out and test again, I really need a reason to test.
pw_Tony
07-21-2007, 10:27 PM
Yes Todd it will get done for you, I think it will be cool to go out and test again, I really need a reason to test.
Looks like it works to me;)
Squirtin Thunder
07-21-2007, 10:30 PM
Looks like it works to me;)
Tony I will change a few things and test again tomarrow. I am thinking jetting and maybe a impeller change, and reset the rideplate @2*.
We will even do a rudder test for the masses. So wear shorts !
Wet Dream
07-22-2007, 01:33 PM
All I'm going to say about the rudder situation is: I noticed a huge difference when I took it off after the pump was rebuilt. The rudder doesn't do shit at any speed above plane other than cause resistance and slow you down 1/10 mph. At NO WAKE ZONE speeds, without the rudder, it was like being on ice, with the rudder, it was more manageable. Thats my recolection, in my boat, and the way I feel about it and if you don't like it, tough. I did not add the rudder to the boat, I still fight it.
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