O2 Sensors vs. Pyrometers

[Roaddogg 4040]

Can any one tell me which one would be a good idea for a blown Alky deal (for an absolute beginner) to help with jetting? Or both?
Steve

[Morg]

Hold on I need my popcorn......
OK I'm ready.
Get it on.:) :)

[Jetboatguru]

Can any one tell me which one would be a good idea for a blown Alky deal (for an absolute beginner) to help with jetting? Or both?
Steve
What kind of a Stupid question is that? What are you new? Are you on the sh it? :D
Steve,
Hire Bubby Wilton or Clyde Morgan or Gordy or somebody that tunes these things for your first race and be done with it. Any one of these guys will have that thing dialed in the first race and you will be set. From that point you really don't change jstting much except when you go to Burley. At Burley we lean ours down about 15-20 thousandths and call it good. You should save your money on the purchase of o2 sensors or Pyrometers. My 2 little copper Lincoln guys.;)

[Fiat48]

What he said or meet me at the World Finals in Phoenix and I'll show you.

[Jetboatguru]

What he said or meet me at the World Finals in Phoenix and I'll show you.
Take him up on that Steve! That is great free advice!!

[Morg]

So am I the only one who won't be at the world finals??

[Jetboatguru]

So am I the only one who won't be at the world finals??
Look in the mirror Morg! Is there a big backwards L on your head? If so, yes you are the only one not going.:D

[Cole Man II]

Ya what he said, see you there Tony!

[Roaddogg 4040]

$hit Tony, I don't even have an engine together yet and you have me going to the World Finals! WTF is that???????:D Now, on the other hand... I do thank you guys for the offer to help and the advice... You might get real tired of my stupid questions before it is all over...:D
Steve
Edit: I know the real reason for you (Tony) wanting me to race this boat is so you just have another guy to whip on... LOL

[Jetboatguru]

$hit Tony, I don't even have an engine together yet and you have me going to the World Finals! WTF is that???????:D Now, on the other hand... I do thank you guys for the offer to help and the advice... You might get real tired of my stupid questions before it is all over...:D
Steve
Edit: I know the real reason for you (Tony) wanting me to race this boat is so you just have another guy to whip on... LOL
Actually Steve I was saying you should go to the World Finals (Sucks to be Morg here) with out your boat and watch and learn. Get to know Wilton and pick his brain. He is a very cool cat that is always willing to help. We don;t do everything right but most of the time we can get close and are willing to help you with anything you need. Other wealths of knowledge are Rankin, Gorgy and Avery. They would help you out as well. There is a guy in Phoenix named Go fast Awww nevermind.....:D

[Roaddogg 4040]

I plan to be there agaiin this year and will all eyes and ears...:) Maybe you can introduce me to a few of your friends there...:D
Steve

[Jetboatguru]

I plan to be there agaiin this year and will all eyes and ears...:) Maybe you can introduce me to a few of your friends there...:D
Steve
Not quite sure what you are referring to here?:confused:

[Ali]

Look in the mirror Morg! Is there a big backwards L on your head? If so, yes you are the only one not going.:D
Roses are red, violets are blue, Morg just got smacked by da Guru

[Morg]

Look in the mirror Morg! Is there a big backwards L on your head? If so, yes you are the only one not going.:D
No L there chief, just the shehite eat'n grin left over from the weekend.:D :D

[Willis]

Call Gorr Fuel Systems (928) 855-8800
www.gorrfuelsystems.com
He just moved to your area, very good and has all the parts you may need to replace. :jawdrop:

[Unchained]

Ok I have to put in my .02
The author of this thread asked " how can I ____ ____" "I'm a beginner"
Responses mostly have been " get someone else to do it for you" or "I'll show you how". That doesn't answer, "how can I"
Now I know many here like MFI and alcohol, But there's a continuous stream of the, " how do I " here about tuning MFI.
From what I've seen on the lake and at the drags........some know more than others of how to tune MFI but NO ONE knows it all because the nature of MFI is that it CANNOT be tuned precisely. It is impossible. Maybe close enough for drag racing using alcohol but certainly the A/F ratio varies through the rpm range. And I challenge anyone to tell me what A/F ratio they ARE running.
There are a select few in the country who are known as "Supertuners"
Two who come to mind are Kenny Duttweiler and Bob Norwood.
What they use is always EFI because it CAN be tuned precisely, and O2 sensors because they tell you exactly what the A/F ratio is.
So that answers the question, How can I ________ ?
Flame away.............:D

[Jetboatguru]

Can any one tell me which one would be a good idea for a blown Alky deal (for an absolute beginner) to help with jetting? Or both?
Nowhere in there does it ask "How do I?"
:D :D

[Roaddogg 4040]

No flames needed here. I am just asking questions. I am trying to do as much of this deal as I can but as I said, I am a beginner and don't know my ass from a hot rock........:) . I have had and will have lots of help from other boaters and friends that have volunteered sp? to give me a hand.
I was asking about pyros/O2 sensors to get a little knowledge and opinions. No need to flame anyone. Thanks for the advice. I do appreciate any and all I can get...:D
Steve

[Roaddogg 4040]

No flames needed here. I am just asking questions. I am trying to do as much of this deal as I can but as I said, I am a beginner and don't know my ass from a hot rock........:) . I have had and will have lots of help from other boaters and friends that have volunteered sp? to give me a hand.
I was asking about pyros/O2 sensors to get a little knowledge and opinions. No need to flame anyone. Thanks for the advice. I do appreciate any and all I can get...:D
Steve
Sorry Double post.......

[Unchained]

I interpreted the original post as,
How do I tune it, with an O2 sensor or with a pyrometer ?
Is that incorrect ?

[Fiat48]

Ok I have to put in my .02
The author of this thread asked " how can I ____ ____" "I'm a beginner"
Responses mostly have been " get someone else to do it for you" or "I'll show you how". That doesn't answer, "how can I"
Now I know many here like MFI and alcohol, But there's a continuous stream of the, " how do I " here about tuning MFI.
From what I've seen on the lake and at the drags........some know more than others of how to tune MFI but NO ONE knows it all because the nature of MFI is that it CANNOT be tuned precisely. It is impossible. Maybe close enough for drag racing using alcohol but certainly the A/F ratio varies through the rpm range. And I challenge anyone to tell me what A/F ratio they ARE running.
There are a select few in the country who are known as "Supertuners"
Two who come to mind are Kenny Duttweiler and Bob Norwood.
What they use is always EFI because it CAN be tuned precisely, and O2 sensors because they tell you exactly what the A/F ratio is.
So that answers the question, How can I ________ ?
Flame away.............:D
My answer was "I'll show you." That meant show up at the world finals where I will be a tuning a very similar blown alcohol hydro....which will be injected on alcohol and will have a pyrometer on it. That beats the living hell out of trying to explain over the internet of how fuel injection works and how to tune it. Everything from how to read the plugs....how the changes effect the pyro...how the air condtions change and how to correct the engine performance for that. It's hands on for 4 days.
Yes..there are tons of questions guys have on tuning MFI. Everyone is so sold on how complicated it is, how the system has to be flowed and calibrated or you will burn the motor down..etc...etc.
When the truth is it is so damn simple Stu Hilborn had doubts it would even work...but it did. It's not rocket science.
As far as tuning with a/f ratio and electronic EFI...I know OR CARE NOTHING TO KNOW about that personally. I would not challenge the accuracy of it and I am sure of Pro Stock (NHRA) was allowed to go to EFI they would do it in a heartbeat. But then they would prolly go to constant flow if allowed to also.
But the key element is....plain old constant flow works pretty damn good, is simple to tune to at least 90% of it's capability quite easily.....and can pucker most people ass pretty damn good when the butterlys are opened.
And that is what it is all about anyway isn't it?
I have no idea what the air fuel ratio is on mine or others and again I could care less. I read a plug, I use a pyrometer as a backup of my plug reading and it works for me as it has for many many years and hundreds of runs in both cars and boats. I've found a few shortcuts which I have been happy to share. It's not the holly grail.

[GofastRacer]

My answer was "I'll show you." That meant show up at the world finals where I will be a tuning a very similar blown alcohol hydro....which will be injected on alcohol and will have a pyrometer on it. That beats the living hell out of trying to explain over the internet of how fuel injection works and how to tune it. Everything from how to read the plugs....how the changes effect the pyro...how the air condtions change and how to correct the engine performance for that. It's hands on for 4 days.
Yes..there are tons of questions guys have on tuning MFI. Everyone is so sold on how complicated it is, how the system has to be flowed and calibrated or you will burn the motor down..etc...etc.
When the truth is it is so damn simple Stu Hilborn had doubts it would even work...but it did. It's not rocket science.
As far as tuning with a/f ratio and electronic EFI...I know OR CARE NOTHING TO KNOW about that personally. I would not challenge the accuracy of it and I am sure of Pro Stock (NHRA) was allowed to go to EFI they would do it in a heartbeat. But then they would prolly go to constant flow if allowed to also.
But the key element is....plain old constant flow works pretty damn good, is simple to tune to at least 90% of it's capability quite easily.....and can pucker most people ass pretty damn good when the butterlys are opened.
And that is what it is all about anyway isn't it?
I have no idea what the air fuel ratio is on mine or others and again I could care less. I read a plug, I use a pyrometer as a backup of my plug reading and it works for me as it has for many many years and hundreds of runs in both cars and boats. I've found a few shortcuts which I have been happy to share. It's not the holly grail.
Couldn't have said it better myself!..:cool:

[Unchained]

I have no idea what the air fuel ratio is on mine or others and again I could care less. I read a plug, I use a pyrometer as a backup of my plug reading and it works for me.
By stating that you read the plugs and the pyrometer you are also stating that you indeed DO care about what your A/F ratio is. You are just relating it to your plug reading rather than seeing it on a screen. If you didn't care about it you wouldn't take the time to fine tune it or be sure it was right.
What we're discussing is all a matter of physics. To produce the maximum HP the engine wants the correct A/F ratio for the fuel that's being burned and the correct timing. The correct A/F ratio is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

[Fiat48]

Yeah that is true. I am indeed adjusting the air fuel ratio. I just don't know what that particular "number" is.
The pyrometer is my backup...my confirmation of my plug reading. I don't always use the pyro...in fact it has never been on my boat to date. I've had no reason to tune the boat closer as the boat does not work properly with the power it has at this point....much less add power. From experience I know the tune up is fairly close but on the fat side.
I"ll also add that just because I have a "number" on the pyro I like does not mean I am done tuning. I like time slips for the real answer.
So far on gas we have found about 1450 degrees to be best. On alcohol 1250 degrees. But that is not written in stone. We continue to play with the numbers all the time.
On timing....all blown stuff I tune gets 34 degrees locked. Later timing than this creates high exhaust temperatures I do not like...and neither do the valves. I seldom move timing. I'd rather increase blower speed if more performance needed. I'll give an alcohol deal 36 degrees and fatten it 10 to really step on it while I would not do it on a blown gas deal.
Unblown alcohol I do 40 degrees. Been known to do 42 on smaller motors but not convinced of a performance gain.

[Unchained]

Well I saw the video and it looked like your boat was working pretty damn well to me. :D
I have a similar situation with this boat that I never had before. I don't need more power. I never thought I would be saying that but of course I never had a V-drive before this boat.

[Fiat48]

Well it seemed we had it working. We sure thought we did. The video's were taken at Lahontan with a corrected altitude of about 6500 feet when I made those runs. I could set the boat from either rolling or a standstill there. The blower was at 4%. The gear was a 32.
I changed the gear to a 37 to lower the rpm some as it is so high out of the gate. Thought it might be a tad harder to drive but no big deal.
When I went to CFW this year I left the blower at 4%. Using all the down peddle I could muster I could almost hold it but then it would fly away.
Not enough down peddle travel.
So I built a thru hull that would allow me to get 2 inches of actual plate travel at the plate. Took the thing back to Lahontan and with 4% and the 37 gear...no problem driving the boat. But still not convinced...I bumped the blower to 8% and I could drive the boat fine.
But the rpm still has not come down out of the gate. I am near 8000. It just does not need to be that high. I've tried one other prop but she burns the hell out of that one also. So...more gear...maybe more prop....blower at 8% over and if I can drive it at CFW....then I have it.

[Cole Man II]

Fiat,
I wonder what it would cost to due some Test & Tune runs at Phenix in November.
It would be a great opportunity to borrow some props that other boats are running. We could bring some extra gear sets to.

[Roaddogg 4040]

Fiat and Unchained... Thanks for the answers and advice. First of all to clairify" I really didn't want to know how to tune with an O2 or Pyrometer but was just asking if people used them and if they liked how they worked. Maybe I didn't ask very clearley so I apoligize.
I didn't want to start a flame throwin match:) I don't even have this engine put togeather yet and I am just looking for a little back ground knowledge. Thanks again for the help...
I will see ya at Firebird... What boat will you be working on Bob?
Steve

[Fiat48]

The Sanger hydro has no number yet. New deal. But I'll be working on boat 021 also which is a flat out of Reno.
You need to learn this shit. That's where the fun is.

[Roaddogg 4040]

I will look you up... It might be a little too late for me to learn much thou...:D
Steve

[Unchained]

Well it seemed we had it working. We sure thought we did. The video's were taken at Lahontan with a corrected altitude of about 6500 feet when I made those runs. I could set the boat from either rolling or a standstill there. The blower was at 4%. The gear was a 32.
I changed the gear to a 37 to lower the rpm some as it is so high out of the gate. Thought it might be a tad harder to drive but no big deal.
When I went to CFW this year I left the blower at 4%. Using all the down peddle I could muster I could almost hold it but then it would fly away.
Not enough down peddle travel.
So I built a thru hull that would allow me to get 2 inches of actual plate travel at the plate. Took the thing back to Lahontan and with 4% and the 37 gear...no problem driving the boat. But still not convinced...I bumped the blower to 8% and I could drive the boat fine.
But the rpm still has not come down out of the gate. I am near 8000. It just does not need to be that high. I've tried one other prop but she burns the hell out of that one also. So...more gear...maybe more prop....blower at 8% over and if I can drive it at CFW....then I have it.
Thanks for putting up that boat tuning info. This is something where I am still in the learning stages. Maybe everyone is. :idea:
I have been in the dark about cav plate use and settings from the start.
I ran it last year straight out and it seemed to keep the front so low that the tunnels were still in the water and the bow wanted to hunt around some. I was trying to make it run flat like the jet boat.
This year what has worked best is having the plate up a couple notches and not hitting it below 20 mph. It carries a manageable but exiteing wheelie up to 75 or 80 mph and then levels off nice. I had some videos and watchers give me some feedback on that because the bow feels real high.
It airs out immediately and rides real nice.
I hit it getting on plane once and it stood up to 45 degrees. :eek: that was with a passenger. I can't do that anymore without a down pedal and that will have to wait until the off season.
This boat is a lot more exiteing and fun to drive than the jet was.
I really miss makeing the big roostertail though (NOT) :D

[Fiat48]

It sure looks like it from the video.
Being a passenger has gotta be the most helpless feeling in the world. :D