CG Weight and balance, Turbocharger location/positioning

[AaronL]

A question for the turbo guys....
Before I start building headers for my boat, I'd like to hear some opinions from people running twin turbochargers on where to position the turbochargers. I've noticed that almost all of them are positioned at the rear of the engine. Does it matter that much, looking at it from a center of gravity/leverage arm standpoint? Obviously it makes it easier and cleaner to plumb the intake charge pipes, but I want to know if it is better to have them rearward for Center of gravity and balance reasons.
I am going to be running a single plane dominator intake manifold (460 ford) with one of my sheet metal intake elbows (like in the attached picture, but a forward or rearward facing). The reason I'm asking all of this is because I'm thinking about putting my turbocharges quite a bit forward from the center of the engine. To make the setup look best, I would like to have the turbochargers placed with the exhaust housings sitting right about even with the timing cover. This will give me enough room to make nice looking 'Y' pipe into the throttle body. They weigh 70 lbs. each, so along with external wastegates and the rest of the plumbing, this could be a substantial amount of weight.
http://intakeelbows.com/DSC03464.JPG

[Unchained]

I put mine behind the engine and lined up the center of the turbos perpendicular to the engine. That gave me good access to the valve covers and aimed the compressors forward. Piping to the throttle bodies was pretty easy.
I really didn't consider center of gravity when figuring out the location.
If you're useing dry manifolds and turbos you'll want to keep them away from passengers as the heat is a significant factor.
Most of the turbo kits have the turbos mounted right alongside the engine and that blocks access to the valve covers. My turbos are large frame Garretts and they weigh 55# each.
What turbos are you using that weigh 70# ?

[The Doctor]

Consider your space constraints.
Will your placement negatively effect your seating arrangement?
Ours are to the sides and we like them there.

[texas-19]

Nice job on the intake,those welds looks good.
If you put the turbos in the front your gonna have to worry about the heat from them while your driving and when your in the boat and trying to move around you'll have a chance of getting burned.The exhaust will be over the valve covers and their will be alot of heat around the intake manifold area.
I moved my engine forward 4" and mounted them in the rear.
I've had it to triple digets and so far it has been very stable.
It sure is nice being able to check spark plugs and remove valve
covers without removing exhaust.

[AaronL]

I'm using two new Garrett Variable vane turbos that are for the newer 6.0L powerstrokes.
I'm only going to be running two seats.
I get burned pretty much every day welding, so no big deal on the heat/burn issue :)
I want to put the compressor inlets facing forward so the exhaust dump pipes are pointing straight back (for looks).
thanks for the input.

[Unchained]

I'm using two new Garrett Variable vane turbos that are for the newer 6.0L powerstrokes.
Wow, put up some pictures and info about those turbos
I know lots of guys like the exhaust aiming straight back but that makes for a difficult piping situation on the compressor tubes.

[AaronL]

Specs on the turbos :
4" air filter inlet, 4" downpipe outlet, 2.5" compressor discharge, 3" header inlet (with v-band flange, not 4-bolt t-4 style, which is pretty cool). I don't know if you guys have ever heard an '03-07 6.0L powerstroke with straight exhaust, but they sound badass with one of these turbos.
Pretty neat how these work. The exhaust vanes are 'flattened out' to create higher velocity of the exhaust flow into the turbine wheel (at lower rmp) to speed up the turbo rpm. At higher rpm, the vanes open up, allowing more flow. They are controlled electronically, by sliding the disc that holds the vanes in place.
The downfall of these turbos is weight, and you can't clock them exactly how you need them... the vanes need to match up with the control rod, so you have to pick a spot in 40 degree increments (360/9 vanes = 40 degrees) on the exhaust housing.

[Unchained]

That's awesome. I read that those will replace the current turbos eventually.
Do you still need a wastegate with a VVT ?

[AaronL]

On the powerstrokes, they don't use a wastegate..... I'm sure I'll have to use them on my boat setup though. My '05 powerstroke runs 26 lbs boost stock. I'll only run about 12-15 lbs on my setup. Even the older 7.3 powerstrokes with non-variable turbos didn't use wastegates. Computer controlled fuel input (on the diesels) pretty much regulates the amount of boost.

[1968Droptop]

That'll be a sweet set up AaronL. I'm running a straight pipe (4" all the way back) on my modified `97 PSD CrewCab, it does indeed sound sweet. All you hear is the whine of the turbo, very cool cound.
Question for you; how well do you thing the variable turbo is going to hold up ? Those things fail like crazy on the 6.0 ltrs. Got a buddy at the local Ford dealer, they swap out like 15 a week under warranty :mad:, and they're a small farming town dealer. I know the variable turbo is good technology, but that particular unit seems to fail a lot from what I've read and heard. Hope you have better luck with your set up.

[texas-19]

On the powerstrokes, they don't use a wastegate..... I'm sure I'll have to use them on my boat setup though. My '05 powerstroke runs 26 lbs boost stock. I'll only run about 12-15 lbs on my setup. Even the older 7.3 powerstrokes with non-variable turbos didn't use wastegates. Computer controlled fuel input (on the diesels) pretty much regulates the amount of boost.
Are you going to be using an intercooler with that much boost?

[AaronL]

Are you going to be using an intercooler with that much boost?
water/meth injection
Question for you; how well do you thing the variable turbo is going to hold up
My '05 powerstroke has 35k miles on it, and no problems..... I doubt i'll get even that many miles/hours on the boat it in it's lifetime.
Do you know what acutal part in them is prone to failure at the ford dealerships?

[1968Droptop]

My '05 powerstroke has 35k miles on it, and no problems..... I doubt i'll get even that many miles/hours on it in it's lifetime.
Do you know what acutal part in them is prone to failure at the ford dealerships?
Water/meth is good, so is nitrious for intercooling. I don't know the exact part as I don't follow the 6.0 much. Just what I've heard about them turbos. Yoy can go to http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/ and find out. I've picked up a lot of great info there. Lot's of gearheads squeeking BIG numbers outta these PSD's. Ask a few questions and post a pick or two of your boat, those guy's will eat it up:D

[AaronL]

I got a little more work done on the boat (made trailer, motor mounts, valve covers, intake...... etc). Headers next...
http://intakeelbows.com/06.jpg
http://intakeelbows.com/07.jpg
http://intakeelbows.com/08.jpg
http://intakeelbows.com/09.jpg

[McIntyrelocal]

Did you make the valve covers to? the whole setup looks beautiful.

[AaronL]

Did you make the valve covers to? the whole setup looks beautiful.
Thanks,
Yep, the valve covers, water pump/inlet plate thing, motor plates, fuel tanks(tanks not finished yet...). Waiting on 15 degree bends to show up to finish off the intake piping. I think I'll move the Blowoff valve down in front of the distributor though before welding that flange on.
I'm Getting pretty antsy (and broke) trying to get this boat finished. I need to pull the ugly shitter stock heads off and bolt the new aluminum ones on. I found the heads from TheMustangDepot.com. They are 95cc chambers (great for boost). and only cost $950 per pair, assembled with stainless valves and dual springs. Great deal in my opinion.
Not sure if this has been mentioned in another thread yet(off topic), but here's the best way (in my opinion) to line up your engine to your jet without having to mess with angle finders.
http://intakeelbows.com/drivelinetool.jpg
Take a piece of 3" tube (mine was .125 wall, alum tube) and cut it on the band saw to the proper length. Then I trued each end of the tube on the lathe to make sure everything was squared up. I put my driveline in the jet all the way until it bottomed, and pulled it back out about 3/16" and took that measurement to the mating surface of the driveshaft to the flywheel (I think mine was about 6 9/16"). . Then hang the engine on a hoist and hold the pipe in place and make sure the motor and jet are touching the pipe the whole way around. Then make/trim your motor plates to locate the engine where the engine is now positioned. The square opening on the left side of the tube is there so it can be taken in and out and still clear the input shaft with the motor in place.

[pw_Tony]

Looks great!!!!
Awesome work!
Nice paint, really turned out good. Did you end up playing with bottom, and what kind of boat is that?

[AaronL]

Thanks, my friend at the body shop did a great job painting this. I'm going to have a nice medium grey 'truck bedliner' sprayed for a bump guard around the whole boat where the colors come together. probably about 2" wide, and then fan out a little bit wider at the rear. The boat is an 18 foot, 1979 miller. I left the bottom alone for now, because if I changed it, I would have wondered forever if it would've worked good the way it was (and in spite of brendellajet's rather arrogant and jackass remarks in another thread..., that's not worth talking about anymore though). No big deal to mess with the bottom and modify it later if it doesn't work out.
Still a long ways away from completely finishing the boat....

[pw_Tony]

Thanks, my friend at the body shop did a great job painting this. I'm going to have a nice medium grey 'truck bedliner' sprayed for a bump guard around the whole boat where the colors come together. probably about 2" wide, and then fan out a little bit wider at the rear. The boat is an 18 foot, 1979 miller. I let the bottom alone for now, because if I changed it, I would have wondered forever if it would've worked good the way it was (and in spite of brendellajet's rather arrogant and jackass remarks in another thread..., that's not worth talking about anymore though). No big deal to mess with the bottom and modify it later if it doesn't work out.
Still a long ways away from completely finishing the boat....
word

[AaronL]

http://www.mhrw.com/Resourses/a-flowbee02.gifhttp://www.mhrw.com/Resourses/a-flowbee05.gif
This boat will also be a great alternative to the awesome "Flowbee" haircutting system for the long-haired hippies. Free turbo haircut with boat ride :2purples:

[pw_Tony]

http://www.mhrw.com/Resourses/a-flowbee02.gifhttp://www.mhrw.com/Resourses/a-flowbee05.gif
This boat will also be a great alternative to the awesome "Flowbee" haircutting system for the long-haired hippies. Free turbo haircut with boat ride :2purples:
LMFAO.... Now I had to admit something, thanks Aaron. About two weeks ago I got convinced into using a flowbee to cut my hair... it was a funny day, but it turned out ok!
That thing is going to haul ass...

[McIntyrelocal]

your a damn good fabricator i hope you post pics of the final product its gonna be beatiful good luck looks great.

[Sleeper CP]

First off, beautiful work.
Secondly, great choice of engine.
Can that boat handle that much power:confused: With 140 lbs of turbo's mounted to the engine you may want to consider a set on Alumi. heads. you'll save at least 50lbs. probably more.(edit saw you had them.What kind?)
Looks great, looks like you have a great Winter project on your hands.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[AaronL]

Never heard of them until last week. ProComp brand.
TheMustangDepot is advertising them on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/460-BBF-COMPLETE-ALUMINUM-300cc-CYLINDER-HEADS-TMD_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33617QQihZ008QQitem Z180174879237QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
The boat has full stringers and seems to be built pretty stout (to me). I also put in a full floor which should help rigidity. I'm sure it won't be a lightweight when finished.

[Unchained]

You have a great start there. It looks close above the distributor cap. Maybe a spacer under that bend that goes into the intake manifold would help to gain some clearance ?
I see those turbos have a V band clamp setup on the turbine inlet. Is that capable of supporting the turbos by itself or do you need some additional support ?
I can see that you have some great fabricating skills.
You'll need them all when you start into that header. :idea:
Thats no joke about getting trimmed off in the compressor intake. That happened to Bob Norwood who is one of the top supertuners in the country. He lost the tips of a couple fingers in the compressor intake of a big procharger. It sucked his hand right in when he got too close.
Thanks for putting up the pictures. ;)

[Sleeper CP]

Never heard of them until last week. ProComp brand..
There's a reason why:( , you may want to do a search here on ***boat.
I haven't had any experience with them, but they have some serious limitations from what I have read and been told.:eek: :(
Check out a search before you put any money into them. Just my .02
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[AaronL]

You have a great start there. It looks close above the distributor cap. Maybe a spacer under that bend that goes into the intake manifold would help to gain some clearance ?
I see those turbos have a V band clamp setup on the turbine inlet. Is that capable of supporting the turbos by itself or do you need some additional support ?
I can see that you have some great fabricating skills.
You'll need them all when you start into that header. :idea:
Thats no joke about getting trimmed off in the compressor intake. That happened to Bob Norwood who is one of the top supertuners in the country. He lost the tips of a couple fingers in the compressor intake of a big procharger. It sucked his hand right in when he got too close.
Thanks for putting up the pictures. ;)
-I'm going to get an MSD distributor which is shorter (the plug wires clear by about .25" with this one)
-I'll CNC out some nice aluminum brackets off the front head bolts to help support the turbos
-I've built a bunch of headers before... no problem there, just a lot of time.
http://spectrum5racing.com/Projects/headers/images/GTRfinishedexhaust.jpg
http://spectrum5racing.com/Projects/headers/images/65turboheades01.jpg
http://spectrum5racing.com/Projects/headers/images/SaltFlatsheader02.jpg
http://spectrum5racing.com/Projects/headers/images/digitizerboatheaders.jpg
http://spectrum5racing.com/Projects/headers/images/Brammo01.jpg

[Unchained]

Real nice fab work on those headers !!!!!

[Sleeper CP]

Real nice fab work on those headers !!!!!
:D That's for sure.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[AaronL]

Shit. I did a search on ***boat for the pro comp heads, and as usual, there are mixed opinions from, "they are junk" to, "I've been using them for 2 seasons with no problems at all". I don't expect them to be top of the line, but after looking them over, I think the'll be ok after hogging out the exhaust ports a little.
I was going to get some Blue Thunder heads a while ago, but they are hard to get (availability). Anyone know of some good 92-100 cc BBF heads to buy? It seems like they are all high compression, 75cc heads. I'd rather run the Chebby-style exhaust ports if possible.

[Oldsquirt]

Aaron, about the heads, keep in mind they are a Chinese RIP OFF of an American company's design. That company has already had an injuction against it by MSD, whose ignition systems it illegally copied. Why not spend your dollars with the companies here who actually do the R & D on their own products?

[AaronL]

Why not spend your dollars with the companies here who actually do the R & D on their own products?
Like i said in the post directly above yours.... I was going to get a set of blue thunders, but they weren't available, and I can't find any other aluminum, big cc chamber heads.
I agree with what you are saying.... point me towards some good 95cc heads to buy for a ford that are from a 'good' American company... I haven't been able to find any.

[Ken F]

Aaron,
Get in touch with Lem or Charlie Evans. Lem's # is 2706846268 (work)
They can find you some if anybody can. Another thought....have you looked at Jon Kasse's new P-51 heads?
Great looking work!
Ken F

[Boostedballs]

Just to venture back in time when we were talking about turbo placement and VVT...
The VVT's have been out for about a century. They never seemed to last very long in anything smaller than a King Kong locomotive engine because the vane mechanisms stick when they get coated with carbon. I am not familiar with them in the Fords nowadays. Maybe we are using better materials now. What controls the vanes in the trucks? Servos?
I like the idea of using the Alky/water injection but with an unlimited supply of free cool water, I don't know why a turbo boat guy wouldn't want to tap into it to cool his charge. Free power man! And it's less likely to fail on you. Both is better IMO.

[RIVERTIME247]

Thanks, my friend at the body shop did a great job painting this. I'm going to have a nice medium grey 'truck bedliner' sprayed for a bump guard around the whole boat where the colors come together. probably about 2" wide, and then fan out a little bit wider at the rear. The boat is an 18 foot, 1979 miller. I left the bottom alone for now, because if I changed it, I would have wondered forever if it would've worked good the way it was (and in spite of brendellajet's rather arrogant and jackass remarks in another thread..., that's not worth talking about anymore though). No big deal to mess with the bottom and modify it later if it doesn't work out.
Still a long ways away from completely finishing the boat....
millers are good hulls....give jim miller a call if you need info on the bottom.
http://www.millercustomboats.com/view_images.aspx?projid=122&id=1075

[Sleeper CP]

Like i said in the post directly above yours.... I was going to get a set of blue thunders, but they weren't available, and I can't find any other aluminum, big cc chamber heads.
I agree with what you are saying.... point me towards some good 95cc heads to buy for a ford that are from a 'good' American company... I haven't been able to find any.
I have been tring to find a post that (I think LakesOnly may have made) has a chart of about 12 Ford heads or more. Maybe Lakes or someone else can "bump" the post. It has some good BBlk Ford Head info on it. In anycase I think it was a thread from 76Miller and the chart was posted on it.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[AaronL]

http://intakeelbows.com/header03.jpg
http://intakeelbows.com/pic01.jpg
http://intakeelbows.com/pic02.jpg

[Unchained]

When I made the headers from scratch what I found to be real helpful was to mount the flange on the head, put the flange on the turbos, and tack a couple pieces of flatstock between them to hold the alignment.
http://www.michigan***boats.com/technical/regviews/turbo4.jpg
http://www.michigan***boats.com/technical/regviews/turbo5.jpg
Then I made a jig to bolt the flanges to.
That let me fit up everything on the bench as opposed to doing it right on the engine in the boat.
http://www.michigan***boats.com/technical/regviews/turbo6.jpg
http://www.michigan***boats.com/technical/regviews/turbo7.jpg
I've reused the jigs on three sets of turbo headers now.
I've changed some of the bends but the alignment stays the same.
I was amazed to find that even after a couple seasons use the headers still fit the jig.

[Sleeper CP]

http://intakeelbows.com/header03.jpg
]
Looks good. Are you going to run that manifold backwards like that?
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[AaronL]

Yep, I just need to remember to put the head gaskets in backwards so the coolant holes get progressively larger towards the rear, not the front like normal. I think it'll look cleaner not having the coolant exit lines run from the front of the intake like normal.
Funny how a ford guy (you) points this out. I'll bet 9 out of 10 people wouldn't have even noticed.

[AaronL]

Nice idea. I have plenty of jigs for intake elbows (stuff on my web page) and other headers. That definitely saves time when doing more than one set. On mine (which I won't be building another set), the collectors are level and point straight forward. With the tubes are already 3d modeled, I have the cut list, including centerline radius of each tube, straight lengths, and tubing rotations (clocking) already printed out and ready to go. From there I measure all the tubes and cut them in a jig on the vertical band saw. The neat thing about doing it this way is that everything fits into place and lines up. No need for a jig, or grinding a little out of the tubes here and there to make them fit properly.
I also noticed the wood block between compressor housings. Another good idea for lining everything up. On mine, I think I'll get a long piece of flat bar to span between the turbos and tack on 2 rings that barely slip into the compressor housing inlets to line mine up. I'm glad I saw your wood block... it helped me get an idea how to do mine.

[Unchained]

Good eye on picking out the wood block.
I turned the end of it in a lathe so it fit good and bolted it to the ski tow bar and shimmed it until it was square and level.
I get real picky about level and square.
I documented my whole turbo installation from 5 yrs ago and it's on http://www.michigan***boats.com/technical/turbo1.html
Amazing how many things I've changed and how my thoughts about the whole project have changed since then. I wish I had started right out with an O2 sensor to help with tuning and that would have reduced my frustrations by 80%.
THATS CHEATING LAYING THE WHOLE THING OUT ON CAD !! :idea:
I did the cut/grind/fit procedure on mine and it's real time consuming.
I did trace around each section before I tacked it up so that gave me a close pattern for next time.
I used stainless J bends right out of the JEGS catalog to start with and that cut my number of weld joints in 1/2 so that gave me an edge. I also welded my tubes inside the header flange so it looked real clean from the outside.
Keep the pics coming, I really enjoy DIY projects.
It takes some larger than average balls to tackle a job like that (even with your cheating) :D
I get lots of lookers every time I go out boating and take some real pride in saying, "I built it myself"
Some of the local OB guys call me "Turbo Mark".....I'll take that. :)
None of them will run me anymore.

[AaronL]

. I wish I had started right out with an O2 sensor to help with tuning and that would have reduced my frustrations by 80%.
http://www.autometer.com/img/products/4378_d.jpg
Just when I thought I was done whining about having to pay $900 for the gauges I put in my dash, i get to order this $350 puppy (comes with wideband 02 sensor). It comes with data output terminals for tuning with laptop.
I'll keep taking pictures as I go. I like to see build up and how-to stuff from others, so I'll share mine.
I didn't know jack shit about boats until I found ***boat.com and did a bunch of research in these forums.
I just ordered the "in-control" foot throttle and left foot rest with trim switches built in for the diverter. hopefully I'll get them in the next week and put them in. I ordered them from Marty at DiamondMarine.com. He was a great guy to deal with.

[Pops@Aggressor]

Its Nice to see Something Old Restored- Gives me Hope on myself! Im thinking your going to need a Large Impeller to Hold that Back as your Torque hits so low.

[IMPATIENT 1]

how are you plannin to control the actuator on the vvt? we run the same things on dmax's and i've thought and talked about vvt's on here before but never could figure out how to control the actuator. i've got the test module thru kent moore to move the actuator but it wouldn't work great in a boat, i'd have to constantly adjust it.

[AaronL]

Not sure yet..... It is controlled by pulse width modulation (like idle air control motor). there are quite a few companies on the internet that sell PWM controllers. I still have to look into it more.
Some people have used mechanical linkage rods from the throttle, but I don't want to do that. I was also thinking of pneumatic actuators like on turbochargers with built in wastegates. I'd really like to get something figured out that works good with the PWM idea....

[IMPATIENT 1]

Not sure yet..... It is controlled by pulse width modulation (like idle air control motor). there are quite a few companies on the internet that sell PWM controllers. I still have to look into it more.
Some people have used mechanical linkage rods from the throttle, but I don't want to do that. I was also thinking of pneumatic actuators like on turbochargers with built in wastegates. I'd really like to get something figured out that works good with the PWM idea....
for a simple boost level setting the kent moore tool i have will do what your wanting to do, its pulse width also. you might get in touch with a reallllly good ford tech and see what ford released to their dealers to test the turbo. i can turn the vanes on a dmax any way i want and see the value on the kent moore tool, not sure how ford's controling there's.

[AaronL]

I'm not looking for a 'simple boost level setting'.... I'd like it to be controlled by engine load, tps, etc.... Maybe it can be controlled like a fuel injector through the computer?? I'm not even close to getting that far on this project yet, but I'll figure it out and post info about it later.
Do you have a web link on the 'Kent moore tool'?
Thanks,
Aaron

[IMPATIENT 1]

I'm not looking for a 'simple boost level setting'.... I'd like it to be controlled by engine load, tps, etc.... Maybe it can be controlled like a fuel injector through the computer?? I'm not even close to getting that far on this project yet, but I'll figure it out and post info about it later.
Do you have a web link on the 'Kent moore tool'?
Thanks,
Aaron
give me a pm next monday, i'm off work till then and when i get back, i'll get ya the p# and kent moore's tele#. not sure if they have a wedsite or not, they automaticlly send us tools g.m. requires us to have in order to do warranty work. any new tool that comes out, i get it in and couple months later they tell me what its for and why we paid 2k for it:eek:

[AaronL]

http://www.intakeelbows.com/leftside03.jpg
http://www.intakeelbows.com/leftside04.jpg

[pw_Tony]

Are the primaries all one bend into the collector? Wow, they are very clean

[Sleeper CP]

Somebody has soommmmme talent:D :D :D :D
;)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[AaronL]

#'s 5,6, and 7 have two welds, and #8 only has one. cylinders 5 and 6 would have only had one weld, but I couldn't order 2" CLR 180 degree U-bends (they only bend the 2"ers to 150 degrees).

[AaronL]

Big block chebby and ls1 headers are way easier to make. I hate forming the round tubes to the Ford narrow ports. That is by far the worst part!

[Unchained]

Real nice and compact too.
That made it real clean to have the same size tube after the collector as the V band clamp that is going to support the turbo.
Once you look in the turbine housing and see what it all funnels down to once it hits the turbine wheel, it kind of throws out the "big tube-big flow" mind set that most have. :idea:
As I recall, in my turbos it was two 360 degree slots about 1/4" wide.

[likwidsukr]

This is for Aaron or Unchained. What would a set of turbo headers cost a guy. Unchained do you still have your jigs?

[Placecraft Dragstar]

Unchained do you still have your jigs?
Maybe he can dance his jigs for you.

[Unchained]

This is for Aaron or Unchained. What would a set of turbo headers cost a guy. Unchained do you still have your jigs?
I still have these,
http://www.michigan***boats.com/technical/regviews/turbo6.jpg
I have some cardboard patterns for the individual tubes also.
If you're up to the task and you want to pay shipping I could let you use them.
My design has worked out real well for me. I've got 5 seasons of use out them now. I have an extra used set of these headers and turbos for sale.
How much do a set of stainless turbo headers cost?
Add up the costs,
A set of lasered out 304 stainless flanges on the head and on the turbo,
3/8" on the head and 1/2" on the turbine inlet, $ 250.00
8 J bends of 2" stainless tube from the Jegs catalog,
409 stainless $ 21.99 ea x 8 = $ 175.92
304 stainless $ 41.99 ea x 8 = $ 335.92
Shipping of the above, about $ 50.00
Markup for resale, ??????????
And to the materials add at least 20 hours of cutting, fitting, welding and grinding time @ ???? per hr.
Equipment required, I have a $ 3,200. vertical bandsaw and a $ 3,000. TIG
welder + misc hand grinders, air grinder, and carbide burrs.
What do you think a fair price should be on a set of stainless turbo headers ?
I have had many inquirys about turbo headers and I perceive that most think the completed headers should cost no more than the bare material cost. :idea:
Nothing new and custom is going to be as cheap as a used set of Gale Banks, Gentry, etc. aluminum jacketed manifolds. If someone is not looking for a Maximum effort setup then that may be the best way for them to go.
They would not work for me as I've never seen a set that would mount a set of large frame turbos. I wouldn't go through all the work required and then be limited by the manifolds and turbo's. Also I would never mount the turbos over the valve covers as that is bad engineering IMO.
Also many are stumped by having to make some heat shields which are REQUIRED with dry headers.
This is easy and cheap to do. The thinnest alum that can be hand bent will do the job to stop the radiant heat. Even aluminum foil will stop radiant heat.

[Rondane]

what applications do they use that garrett T4 turbo on you use unchained? Are those the biggest they make or something? Are the wastegates special also? what kind are they?
rondane

[Placecraft Dragstar]

what applications do they use that garrett T4 turbo on you use unchained? Are those the biggest they make or something? Are the wastegates special also? what kind are they?
rondane
You are not going TURDBLO are you Rondane?

[LandSpeedRacer]

I positioned my turbos centered on the exhaust flanges. I was going to position them originally towards the front of the boat but there was room issues and too much heat behind my head, and at the back of the boat took up a lot of access too. Pretty happy with them centered, the only access problem I have is spark plugs when hot.

[Sleeper CP]

This is for Aaron or Unchained. What would a set of turbo headers cost a guy. Unchained do you still have your jigs?
Simple question:)
How much do a set of stainless turbo headers cost?
Add up the costs,
A set of lasered out 304 stainless flanges on the head and on the turbo,
3/8" on the head and 1/2" on the turbine inlet, $ 250.00
8 J bends of 2" stainless tube from the Jegs catalog,
409 stainless $ 21.99 ea x 8 = $ 175.92
304 stainless $ 41.99 ea x 8 = $ 335.92
Shipping of the above, about $ 50.00
Markup for resale, ??????????
And to the materials add at least 20 hours of cutting, fitting, welding and grinding time @ ???? per hr.
Equipment required, I have a $ 3,200. vertical bandsaw and a $ 3,000. TIG
welder + misc hand grinders, air grinder, and carbide burrs.
What do you think a fair price should be on a set of stainless turbo headers ?
.
Complicated answer, oh that's not an answer;) :( :idea:
Stainless turbo headers ? It's kind of like if you have to ask you can't afford it
but how far North of $3,000. is he looking at:jawdrop:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D
935 HP,no turbo, no blower, no nitrous and 1 carburetor :D ;)

[Unchained]

what applications do they use that garrett T4 turbo on you use unchained? Are those the biggest they make or something? Are the wastegates special also? what kind are they?
rondane
The turbos I have been using came off a Mack truck diesel.
They are Garrett TV7701.
They call these a large frame turbo but I don't know how to compare all the turbo and flange sizes. Garrett has so many designations and variables that it is totally confusing. The wastegates I got from George at ARS Marine. They are a two bolt flange and appear to be similar to a Teal but were a lot less money. They have worked fine for me but the 1 3/4" valve won't bypass enough exhaust to get the boost below 11# with my setup. Prices on name brand wastegates are ridiculous for such a simple piece.
George has a direct connection to the manufacturer. I got the fuel pressure regulator and throttle bodies from him also.

[Placecraft Dragstar]

http://www.michigan***boats.com/technical/regviews/turbo6.jpg
How much do a set of stainless turbo headers cost?
Add up the costs,
A set of lasered out 304 stainless flanges on the head and on the turbo,
3/8" on the head and 1/2" on the turbine inlet, $ 250.00
8 J bends of 2" stainless tube from the Jegs catalog,
409 stainless $ 21.99 ea x 8 = $ 175.92
304 stainless $ 41.99 ea x 8 = $ 335.92
Shipping of the above, about $ 50.00
Markup for resale, ??????????
And to the materials add at least 20 hours of cutting, fitting, welding and grinding time @ ???? per hr.
Equipment required, I have a $ 3,200. vertical bandsaw and a $ 3,000. TIG
welder + misc hand grinders, air grinder, and carbide burrs.
We do not care how much money you have invested in your toy box of tools, we all can post that but who cares. The guy just wanted to know how much for a set of headers?
And why would they cost anymore then a regular set of headers?

[Unchained]

Simple question:)
Complicated answer, oh that's not an answer;) :( :idea:
Stainless turbo headers ? It's kind of like if you have to ask you can't afford it
but how far North of $3,000. is he looking at:jawdrop:
It's not a straight answer but its an explanation.
I used straight answers many times before and somehow the true costs didn't sink in. :idea:
If I could get $ 1,600.00 for a set of headers using the more expensive 304 stainless I'd be satisfied. That's selling the materials at cost and giving me
$ 50./hr for shop fab time. Not a get rich quick scheme.
I have a used set with 409 material that are ceramic coated that I'd sell
for $ 1,200.00.
I had aspirations that building the headers would help to get people on board the turbo train. Hasn't happened that way. Not when a roots blower is a no brainer bolt on and nitrous is a time payment plan. Maybe once the noise laws get stricter.
I've made two sets with the 409 stainless and they worked out fine too.
409 stainless is a lower grade stainless, It's what they use on passenger car exhaust. A magnet will stick to it.
The 304 material that I got from Stainless Works had a little more consistent diameter tube through the bends and fit up a little better.

[Unchained]

(You don't own a) Placecraft Garagestar,
Scott, why are you responding ?
You could make yourself some headers out of cardboard tubes and that would be fine for your purposes because......it ain't gonna leave the garage anyway.
Go back to Bench racers where you belong. :D

[Placecraft Dragstar]

(You don't own a) Placecraft Garagestar,
Scott, why are you responding ? cause I can
You could make yourself some headers out of cardboard tubes and that would be fine for your purposes because......it ain't gonna leave the garage anyway.
Go back to Bench racers where you belong. :D
Why dont you take a midol and go to bed and call me in the morning and we will go have lunch at hooters for some wings:D

[Sleeper CP]

(You don't own a) Placecraft Garagestar,
Scott, why are you responding ?
You could make yourself some headers out of cardboard tubes and that would be fine for your purposes because......it ain't gonna leave the garage anyway.
Go back to Bench racers where you belong. :D
That is one of the best bitch slap's I have seen :D ;)
If I could get $ 1,600.00 for a set of headers using the more expensive 304 stainless I'd be satisfied. That's selling the materials at cost and giving me
$ 50./hr for shop fab time. Not a get rich quick scheme.
I have a used set with 409 material that are ceramic coated that I'd sell
for $ 1,200.00.
.
Someone would have to be a damn fool to argue about that price. That is very reasonable and you are giving away alot of your time. :)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[likwidsukr]

LMFAO> I know they aren't cheap but if you made a "batch" of them maybe It would be worth it. ( For you)

[sstjet]

[QUOTE=Sleeper CP;2919484]That is one of the best bitch slap's I have seen :D ;)
:boxingguy :jawdrop:

[Hass828]

(You don't own a) Placecraft Garagestar,
Scott, why are you responding ?
You could make yourself some headers out of cardboard tubes and that would be fine for your purposes because......it ain't gonna leave the garage anyway.
Go back to Bench racers where you belong. :D
Yea, what he said, Placecraft Dragqueen:mad:

[Placecraft Dragstar]

Yea, what he said, Placecraft Dragqueen:mad:
That is real original HASSCLOWN828 another cheerleader

[Hass828]

That is real original HASSCLOWN828 another cheerleader
I didnt know you were a cheerleader, thought that alot of your threads had a female wang to them.

[AaronL]

The ones on my boat cost over $1300 in material alone (all 304 SS).:jawdrop: , and I made my own merge collectors and CNC'd out the header flanges from flat stock. To build a "custom" set like mine, It isn't even worth estimating a price, since there is so much time into designing and fabricating them (I wouldn't sell these for anything under $4500, which I would never pay for a set of headers either).
Keep in mind, I saved about $300 making my own merge collectors out of 20 degree bends, and $180 on the flanges. There are lots of ways to make these cheaper (laser cut flanges, cheaper tubing..), but these were for my boat, and I didn't want to skimp. Mine are compact, so I used tighter bends, and you have to buy them from SPDexhaust.com, which is the only place I have found that supplies everything I need.
If there were enough people that were interested in turbocharging boats (10or more), I'd think a good price for some simpler ones for a standard BBC, t4 turbo set up could be sold for $1700/pair with laser cut flanges and lower cost formed collectors.

[sstjet]

That is real original HASSCLOWN828 another cheerleader
Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. :D

[likwidsukr]

The ones on my boat cost over $1300 in material alone (all 304 SS).:jawdrop: , and I made my own merge collectors and CNC'd out the header flanges from flat stock. To build a "custom" set like mine, It isn't even worth estimating a price, since there is so much time into designing and fabricating them (I wouldn't sell these for anything under $4500, which I would never pay for a set of headers either).
Keep in mind, I saved about $300 making my own merge collectors out of 20 degree bends, and $180 on the flanges. There are lots of ways to make these cheaper (laser cut flanges, cheaper tubing..), but these were for my boat, and I didn't want to skimp. Mine are compact, so I used tighter bends, and you have to buy them from SPDexhaust.com, which is the only place I have found that supplies everything I need.
If there were enough people that were interested in turbocharging boats (10or more), I'd think a good price for some simpler ones for a standard BBC, t4 turbo set up could be sold for $1700/pair with laser cut flanges and lower cost formed collectors.
Thank you. I was unsure of the materials cost in yours. WOW. Really sweet looking and cannot wait for the finished product. Good luck. Or good talent either way looks awesome!

[Rondane]

The turbos I have been using came off a Mack truck diesel.
They are Garrett TV7701.
They call these a large frame turbo but I don't know how to compare all the turbo and flange sizes. Garrett has so many designations and variables that it is totally confusing.
thats why i was wondering how you came to pick that one with so many to choose from? Did you get recommended that turbo or did you choose that thru your research?
thanks for the info
rondane
Hey placedraft garagestar.....why dont you just go back to making those fake shaft seals will ya. You should just hang out with the guru in the midwest.

[Unchained]

thats why i was wondering how you came to pick that one with so many to choose from? Did you get recommended that turbo or did you choose that thru your research?
I really didn't pick them. I'm not real good at reading compressor maps.
The guy I got all the components from originally in 2003 sold them to me. I paid too much for rebuilds but they have worked real well for me. If someone wanted to do some truck junkyard hunting and could find a couple GT42 Garretts from a Volvo diesel truck those would be a great pick too.

[billet racing 1]

I'm leaning toward the Hardin Marine Typhoon Headers. Water jacketed. Since mine is a lake/family boat, I like the idea of water jackets. Thier pricy at $3,600.
Jerry

[likwidsukr]

I'm leaning toward the Hardin Marine Typhoon Headers. Water jacketed. Since mine is a lake/family boat, I like the idea of water jackets. Thier pricy at $3,600.
Jerry
Water Jacketed Turbo headers:confused: :confused:

[sanger rat]

Wouldn't be to hard to fab headers like this for cheap. http://www.trickperformanceproducts.com/images/turbofinal_pics/manifold_sideview.jpg

[Placecraft Dragstar]

why dont you just go back to making those fake shaft seals will ya. .
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/16805101_0197-med.jpg
They are far from fake and yes they are better then the don's. Mine has 3 seals not 2 and better material. Besides don did not come up with those anyway, he copied them from someone that made them as well. And no I am not talking ill of him due to he is passed. And another thing, If you live in ohio I will be passing through there in a couple weeks pulling my boat I will stop by and take pictures of your boat so I can post them on line since you cant.

[billet racing 1]

thoughts on using water jacketed headers for twin turbo set up. PRO - CON. the set up I had was water jacketed center rise logs.
Jerry

[maxwedge]

I've been wondering about the possibility of welding myself up something out of pre-formed stainless bends using stainless wire in a MIG. I have run stainless wire through it before with no problem for some cosmetic stuff, but not sure how it might work for something like a set of headers. Can anybody tell me what the real drawbacks of using a MIG instead of a TIG for this type of work would be, besides not as pretty?

[Unchained]

thoughts on using water jacketed headers for twin turbo set up. PRO - CON. the set up I had was water jacketed center rise logs. Jerry
The pros of the water jacketed manifolds of course are taking the heat problem away and that's probably the only positive thing. If you have a cover over the engine you really have no choice but to go with water jacketed manifolds.
I guess the polished aluminum manifolds would look nice and that could be considered a pro too.
Cons about the water jacketed manifolds would be, very expensive, lots of extra weight, not able to mount big turbos on the manifolds, and removing the heat also removes a lot of the exhaust gas volume that runs the turbo. Less efficiency.
My thoughts on turbocharging are, if you're going to go through all that work and expense, go with big enough turbos so that you will never be limited in available performance. I can deal with the heat problem to maximize the efficiency and performance.
How am I going to mount this big turbo on this little exhaust manifold ?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220gentryexhaust2.JPG
Here's some manifolds that will flow,
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/turbosandheaders.jpg
Here's a brand new set,
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/turboheaders2.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/turboheaders1.jpg

[steveo143]

What are the rough dimensions of the flange on you turbos? I have a pair of watercooled Drake manifolds that have a 6" square top, thought they would be great for some large frame turbos. I'm planning on a 600ci BBC, twin turboed,intercooled, EFI motor for my 21' Dimarco makeover.

[Unchained]

The flange is 5 3/8" X 3 9/16"
The bolt pattern is 4 7/16" X 2 3/4"
I believe it's called a T6 flange

[steveo143]

Thanx Mark. That would give me plenty to work with. Would probably incorporate waste gate, pyrometer bung, 02 sensor bung into stepdown adapter from manifold to turbo. The way this manifold is made, I could install individual 02 sensors on each pipe. Pro's and con's?

[Unchained]

This thread on www.theturboforums.com had a great idea for a stainless steel turbine housing heat shield,
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=99937.0
That was a great idea about making it from a stainless cooking bowl. :idea:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/mazman808/Panonturbo.jpg

[gottaminute?]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136023&highlight=turbo+block
Ill bring it to top of spam
look at gn 30 pic for big water cooled center rise exhaust (same pattern as holley dominator carb gasket) we ran holset h2c turbos OE cummins stuff
pat

[steveo143]

Any updates? Love this stuff.