Timing Fixed Or Not?

[H20MOFO]

I Know This Is A Very Broad Issue. Over 600 H.p Fixed Or Not (timing That Is ). (i'm In A Jet Boat But Have Owned A K-boat) What Do Ya Think?

[Aluminum Squirt]

Fixed for me, but I'm nowhere near 600 HP or high compression. ZZ4, runs WOT almost all the time, not a lot of accel or decel on the whitewater. I think this thread will touch off quite an entertaining conversation, I think its been covered before but its been awhile-Aluminum Squirt

[H20MOFO]

Would Like To Hear More. Could GIVE My Ph # Really Thinking About It! Also Mag With A Coil Or Mds With A Box? ALSO R-U A JET?

[The Doctor]

Here goes the "entertaining conversation" as mentioned:
Your application depends upon your timing needs. I have a Hallett flat we run a basic BBC in with an HEI distributor using mechanical & vacuum advance. It's proven to us to be best to have for the wide variety of speeds/loads/applications we need such as knee-boarding youngsters at 1400 RPM, skiing at 3000-3800 RPM, outrunning jets at 6500 RPM. We also have a twin-turbo BBC Schiada that runs a mag with mechanical advance only. Perfect for starting/picking up a skier/running up the RPM to have timing curve follow the load for efficiency.
Every situation has it's applicable timing need for maximum efficiency. We also have a few other Biesemeyer flats that run all out that remain fixed as do our dragsters and Funny Cars. When the optimum performance at peak RPM is preferred fixed timing usually is the ticket as a dyno will demonstrate.

[H20MOFO]

hmmm.? NEVER CONSIDERED A MAG WHEN I A HAD A FLATTIE OR UNTIL THEY CAME OUT WITH A MAG 1 WITH A COIL. 4 LOW R'S. MY IGNITION IS MY WEAK LINK. I WANT TO UPGRADE NOT SURE WHICH WAY TO LEAP?

[H20MOFO]

I Know Here I Go Again . Which Idles Better And ,can Anyone Tell Me Why A Mag Is A No No?

[Aluminum Squirt]

H2OMOFO, I'll save you a dime and tell you everything I know here (shouldn't take long). I'm not a big motor guy, I just know/read enough to be dangerous. I run locked out because I don't really ever idle around or just cruise. My little boat is a whitewater boat and I race it (or at least I do when my motor is not smoked). Its not very fast, so I pretty much hold it wide open all the time. I haven't raced any truely challenging rivers with technical sections so I just mash it to the floor when I get the flag and let up when I see the flag at the other end. Per my set up guy, locked out is easier to tune, less to go wrong, etc etc. Its a jet, I turn a ZZ4 or equivalent around 5000RPM's on a B cut Legend. No MSD, just stock HEI with good wires and no vac advance. Like I said for simplicity and at the recommendation of people I trust, I run it locked out. Maybe not the best set-up for a recreational boat. I'd be glad to talk to you on the phone, just not this weekend, got bunches of stuff to do. Unfortunately I won't offer you any expert knowledge or even opinions. PM me your number next week if you still want to talk-Aluminum Squirt

[H20MOFO]

Thanks I May Take Ya Up On That. I'd Probably Drop In An Hei. But Because Of My Tunnel Ram Just Won't Happen, (no Room). DOES ANY ONE KNOW OF A MARINE HEI TYPE DIST WHIT A SMALLER HOUSING? RIGHT NOW I HAVE A POS MALLORY, NOT EVEN MARINE. (NOT A UNILITE) . I HEARD THE MOTOR TURNS OVER EAISER WITH FIXED TIMING?

[DUCKY]

It is my opinion that MSD has just about the best system going. High quality, nearly infinite tuning capabilities, etc... My take on the timing question is that if it's a lake boat, some some form of advance curve is required. I know plenty of guys who run locked out around the lake and have no issues but I still stand with what I said above. Anyways, locked out motors do not crank over easier, in fact they are generally very hard on starters and flywheels, especially with high compression. This is one of the reasons you see the guy with the old flatty and a locked out mag spin the motor up on the starter before flipping the switch.

[H20MOFO]

I Guess I'll Stick With The Mechanical For Now. I Don't Want To Blow Anything Up (like My $) I Can't Even Time My Motor With A Light. My Balancer Must Have Spun, Or My Pointer On My Timeing Cover Is The Wrong Style Or Something. Can Find Tdc By Pulling A Plug Cause On My Brodix Heads The Plug Hole Is Straight Sideways.
I've Heard Guys On Here Talk About Using An Exaust Temp. Unit To Tell If You Have Too Much Adv. Is That Even An Option With Water Injected Bassetts?

[DUCKY]

If you have no reference point from which to read timing, that needs to be repaired before anything else. If all else fails you can re-verify TDC by using an air adapter, removing the spring from the exhaust valve on the number one cylinder and using a dial indicator on the valve stem to watch the piston movement. Obviously you need to be very careful when rotating the engine (by wrench of course) Disconnect the battery cables, and don't let the valve fall down into the cylinder. Anyways, the EGT monitor is a great tuning tool, but useless if you don't have a baseline. If you did rig up an EGT monitor, you would have to kill the water injection while testing.

[H20MOFO]

Thanks For The Help Ducky. I Try Not To Be Too Dense Here. I'm Not Sure What An Air Adapter Is,and Don't Own A Dial Indicator, I Guess I Could Go Buy One (or Both). Is The Plan To Remove The Spring,set The Valve On Top Of Ol #1 (does This Air Adapter Deal Keep It From Falling In?) If I Put An Egt On There I Assume The Water Wouldn't Ruin The Sending Unit? Also Confused About 1 Other Thing. When I Picked My Motor Up From My Machine Shop. He Told Me When He Fired My Motor Up He Initially Had The Timing Too Far Retarded And Made The Headers Glow(street Headers For Run In). I Told Him I Would Have Thought That Would Mean Too Much Adv. He Told Me With 110 And Too Far Retarded The Fuel Was Still Being Burnt As It Was Exiting. What The? I PUT SOME SLIGHTLY USED BASSETTS ON AT THE FIRST OF THE SEASON AND THERE TURNING GOLD. THINK SOMETHINGS UP.

[shaun]

locking out the dist confuses me as to why it would be done, i know when i first fired up my motor i had the wrong advance stop in my dist.. Required me to run around 20 deg of initial timing to get to 36 deg of full advance. When at 20 deg the motor ran like a lawn mower, raping the throttle sounded like the motor wanted to hesitate in the mid range.. I put the stock adv stop in the dist, got the timing down to around 15 at idle and it ran great... I think I'm going to go one stop smaller because at 15 I'm still only at 36..
I also had a bug as my first car (about 9 years ago), the motor always ran like shit, backing up at low/mid range.. i hunted for the problem forever thinking it was the carb.. Finally one day in auto shop i found this old machine in the corner that nobody ever used, it was a tool that you put the dist in and it spun it up and showed the timing curve. After talking with the shop teacher and doing some research about it (when i discovered that a dist actually changed the timing during the rpm range) i stuck my dist in there and found that somebody had put the wrong springs in it, basically locked it out because it would never advance up to 5K (didn't try higher than that because that motor never made it over 4k... anyway long story short, the bug ran like shit too...
I'm confused as to the purpose of locking it out, unless of course you are locking out the dist because another source is going to control advance?

[H20MOFO]

I Was Thinking About It Because I Read About It In Hot Boat A Few Months Ago. Said A Lot Of Blower Guys Did It. And A Good Portion Of Higher Horse Jet Guys Do. It's A Little Off Thread But How Many Of You Just
' Power Time" A Motor. Right Now Thats All I Got Except A Reference Mark Where My Motor Was Set When I Blew It Up And Where It Is Now.

[DUCKY]

Don't get me wrong, generally a motor that has the timing locked out runs great. They idle well, and pull hard through the mid range, etc... not to mention one less thing to go wrong. In a drag boat, or any application where the throttle is "on or off", locked out is fine, other than the hard cranking. Where locked out doesn't belong is in an application where most of the use in in the midrange. Locked out timing, plus a high load and part throttle is a prime recipe for detonation.
Anyways, to "MOFO" if you don't have the tools I mentioned, you are probably better off pulling the head off and finding your TDC with a piston stop which can be made with a piece a steel strap and a bolt. If you aren't comfortable with that, then take it to someone who is. Anyways, the air adapter is to pressurize the cylinder and keep the valve from falling in while you get the the spring hardware off (and back on) but yes you have the idea correct. You hold the valve stem and roll the motor over by hand until the piston touches the valve and then watch it. When it rises and stops, roll it back a little and setup the indicator so you can see exactly when the piston reaches it's peak set the indicator at zero then roll the motor back .025" and mark the balancer. then roll it past zero .025" and mark again. Split the difference and you have your exact TDC. Regardless, I wouldn't go buy the tools I mentioned for a one time use. I also wouldn't go spend the money on a pyrometer setup. A pyrometer (EGT) is for ultra fine tuning. You need to get the thing in the ball park first. I don't know your skill/experience level, but if you don't know how to read plugs and piston tops, a pyro will only confuse you and the water in the exhaust can damage the sensor. Hope this helps!

[H20MOFO]

It Does. Thanks.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

outrunning jets at 6500 RPM. .
why ya gotta hit below the belt:D :D

[Moneypitt]

This whole thread is flirting with disaster. Take your boat to someone that knows what they're doing, regardless if they've ever owned a K boat...MP

[Sleeper CP]

This whole thread is flirting with disaster. Take your boat to someone that knows what they're doing, regardless if they've ever owned a K boat...MP
"Yeah, what he said!":jawdrop:
Sleeper CP
565" Ford Lover

[H20MOFO]

Ouch. You Guys R No Fun. By The Way R - U Fixed R Not And What Da Ya Got.?

[Sleeper CP]

Ouch. You Guys R No Fun. By The Way R - U Fixed R Not And What Da Ya Got.?
Locked out. It runs at 32*. The MSD has an automatic retard at start, so it is not starting at 32*. I have a small roller cam dur @ .050 is 278 int- 285ext. so it doesn't have a lot of cranking compression any way at 11.8:1 compression.
I don't recall you saying what you do with boat. I ski and river race wtih mine so it doesn't really see anything under 3,000 rpm's. So being locked out isn't a problem.
Sleeper CP
565" Ford Lover

[GofastRacer]

No reason ever to run locked out unless it's a blown deal!...

[H20MOFO]

Your Locked Out Sounds Like (duh). It's All Food For Thought Right Now. I'm Also About 11.something To 1 And My Boat Won't Plane Much Less Than 2500 R's And If All The Timing Is In By Then Why Not.(unless ?) . ( I Love Everyones Opinions).

[H20MOFO]

Which Msd Box Do You Have Sleeper . 6?

[Sleeper CP]

Which Msd Box Do You Have Sleeper . 6?
Sorry about that. Went to Big Sur and Monterey for a few days with the family. The boat runs a MSD 6M. The box sits where it actually gets splashed from time to time. Have never had a problem with the 6M getting wet.
Sleeper CP
565" Ford Lover