Question for the hot rod builders...

[Flyinbowtie]

Okay gang, here is the deal.
I have a 1940 Ford 2-door sedan. (No, it is not for sale:D)
Anyway, the car has a very mild 302 Ford V-8 in it, mild cam, Holley 600 on a 'Brock Performer. Power rack, no A/C and won't see a/c in the near future.
The engine is hooked to a C-4, and spins a 8-inch with 3.2X gears, just a cruiser.
I am in the process of putting a new 2-pass aluminum radiator in it. The car had a high-compression stroker flatmotor in it for many years, until gas got so crappy that 105 leaded race gas was the only juice it would drink.
I pulled the flatty, pickled it (no it is not for sale) for another day.
(If you happen to have a duece roadster sittin' in the shed and are tired of looking at it, I'll help ya out and haul it off:D)
The 302 has been livin' with the old flatty rad, slightly modded, for 3-4 years.
The engine never gots over 180 while under way at 35 mph or better, with the fan off.
The fan was a 16 inch electric unit, I mounted it on the front of the rad because I didn't have space between the water pump snout and the rad to put it in as a puller. I ran the fan in parking lots or other slow, slow traffic situations and it held the car at 200 or less.
Every once in a while it'd push the 8lb cap and puke a little coolant, but the new PRD radiator has a 16 lb system, and is not half-plugged up, which the old one was.
I've cheated another inch or so, and now have a choice.
I think I can slip a 1175 CFM 13 inch electric fan behind the rad, (mounted at the bottom off the rad core, not centered) or go back to mounting the bigger unit as a pusher. I'd like to go behind the for efficiency, and to cut the noise a bit, but I don't want to do this twice,and I am in a quandry about whether the little fan is enough.
Sorry no alcohol, reckless allegations, or other suspense here, just a guy trying to figure out which way to go so I can drive the old girl to a local rd run in a couple of weeks.
Any thoughts would be appreciated..

[2forcefull]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38042&stc=1&d=1188270836how far off center is the water pump?
I'm runn'n a pump fan with a shroud.
and i have a/c
of all the 39/40s i've had i've had the best
luck that way
those cars are hurt'n in the air flow side
I hate to block any with the fan up fronthttp://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38041&stc=1&d=1188270840

[SummitKarl]

the 2 pass cross flow is the way to go with SBF's..Mattson's radiator 714-826-0357 makes custom 2 pass cross flows for most Fords 32-72, a puller fan is always best...you should be just fine with the small puller, the stock factory flex is a 15" for a 302.....best thing you can do for your 302 is buy one of these gano filter (http://www.mustangsplus.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MPFMP&Category_Code=gano), SBF's are notorious for clogging radiators, the gano filters work great they trap all the crap and when it starts to run a little warm, pull the filter shake the junk out and it's running cool again;)

[Flyinbowtie]

It is too high to run an engine driven fan, that'd be my first choice as well.
Also, at the pump, I don't have enough room to put a fan on it. The face of the flange where the bolts for the pulley are is about 3/4 of an inch form the rad, with a March aluminum pulley on it.
Karl, the rad is brand new and a 2-pass it isn't a cross flow, but agin this is a little 8 to 1 engine, not makin a lot of heat. I will get one of those fliters, that looks like a good idea...thanks...

[SummitKarl]

It is too high to run an engine driven fan, that'd be my first choice as well.
Also, at the pump, I don't have enough room to put a fan on it. The face of the flange where the bolts for the pulley are is about 3/4 of an inch form the rad, with a March aluminum pulley on it.
Karl, the rad is brand new and a 2-pass it isn't a cross flow, but agin this is a little 8 to 1 engine, not makin a lot of heat. I will get one of those fliters, that looks like a good idea...thanks...
just for the heck of it I went and measured mine (stock 70's flex) measures 1" thick (from front fan blade edge to back side of mtg plate), sounds like you just need to find 1/2" some where...take advantage of all the slop in the motor mounts and trany mount and try to push the motor as far back as you can...assuming you still have enough drive shaft play:idea: in the end it really may be worth the effort to slot the Mtg. brackets and have a 1/2"-1" knocked off the drive shaft...end result better handling, better cooling, better weight transfer..., just finished a long wheel base T-bucket for a friend
355/350 and went through all the above.
YES!! get that filter..they work great, I swear by them in my cars

[socalmoney]

Lets see some photos of this thing.

[Flyinbowtie]

Karl I know, I have one of those fans. I've sat out there and pondered for hours trying to figure out how to run it, it all comes back to the 1/2 inch between the pan and the steering rack, and the unmolested firewall that I don't wanna molest.
The flex fan would cut the top radiator hose in half. :mad:
I'm stuck with an electric, front big or back little, that is the option I can see right now. I coulda put an SBC in it, but I am one of those weirdos that thinks Ford power belongs in Fords, Chevy in Chevys, Mopar in Mopar.
I can gain 1-1/2 inches by buying all late model timing cover, water pump, etc, and changing it all out. Maybe I will someday, but not this time. Too much other stuff going on right now to justify the $.
Thanks for going out and putting a tape on your car, I appreciate it.

[Big Kahunaa]

lets see some motor compartment picks we built a 41 ford pick up but we set the motor back before 210* copper and brass 4 row after 180* 2 row griffin yes it has a 302 in it ford in a ford chev in a chev and a hemi goes in any thing

[Flyinbowtie]

Lets see some photos of this thing.
Socal, the are on the Dell, which is dead right now...:mad:
Her454 posted some awhile back, the car is black, genuine 25 year old laquer paint starting to "patina" if ya know what I mean. Stock frame, 8inch rear on leafs, late front IFS using Ford Rack and Chevy Disc brakes, Red rims, chrome outers and Ford Delxe Caps. Hunkered down for the right stance.
Old mohair interior, you get the idea. My dad and I drug it out of a backyard in San Pedro where it was being used as a chicken coop in 1974.
We stripped it to bare frame, dipped the body, and Dad built a flatmotor like he raced on the lakes back in the day.
He got to drive it about 2 years before cancer got him.
Now, I am just the keeper of the family heirloom, and we run it around to the local rod runs. I am saving the flathead for a tribute Roadster project I want to build if I can ever find the $ and a suitable platform.
Duece, highboy, black, dropped beam axle, hairpins, '40 box & column, Muncie, Quickchange, juiced brakes and buick drums, Either rings and caps or Kelsely Hayes wires. Auburn style dash, etc., etc., etc.
Yeah, I gots a illness...:D

[Flyinbowtie]

I wil try to take some new pics and post them up tomorrow. Thanks for all the interest, guys...

[SummitKarl]

Karl I know, I have one of those fans. I've sat out there and pondered for hours trying to figure out how to run it, it all comes back to the 1/2 inch between the pan and the steering rack, and the unmolested firewall that I don't wanna molest.
The flex fan would cut the top radiator hose in half. :mad:
I'm stuck with an electric, front big or back little, that is the option I can see right now. I coulda put an SBC in it, but I am one of those weirdos that thinks Ford power belongs in Fords, Chevy in Chevys, Mopar in Mopar.
I can gain 1-1/2 inches by buying all late model timing cover, water pump, etc, and changing it all out. Maybe I will someday, but not this time. Too much other stuff going on right now to justify the $.
Thanks for going out and putting a tape on your car, I appreciate it.
oddly enough..I have both of those sitting in the garage (unused)...you want em..they will be for ya..(on the house)

[socalmoney]

Sounds sweet. I have always wanted a 40.

[2forcefull]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38064&stc=1&d=1188308823
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38063&stc=1&d=1188308639
hemi's are for hot rods

[2forcefull]

the reason we put SBC's was they were 3" shorter,not for any other reason

[Baja Big Dog]

Im confused, correct me if I misunderstood you. You claim the car runs great and in the "slow" conditions you turn on the fan, and it runs to 200. So your didn't have a problem?
You are now going to a 2 row aluminium running at 16lbs, and you know for a fact that this will make the car run cooler, so the only question is the fan?
You had a front mount fan that worked fine in the "old big block" set up, why change? If looks are not an issue run it on the front and push the air, your efficiency drops something like 12% (don't flame me, I just don't remember) when pushing instead of pulling, but that is already established as acceptable.
You said you had to "turn on the fan", this is completely unacceptable to us when we do any conversion. You do not want the chance of the engine overheating if you involved in some conversation, or some one else drives the car, we use Centech controllers for fans, it has an adjustable (external) pot know and you can set the turn on temp. We also combine this with electric water pumps that run anywhere from 25 to 45 GP. The combination in Jeeps with small blocks can run the water temp at 160 to 180 idling with 110 degree outside temps.
Someone mentioned Mathenson Radiators, they are good, they cater to the hot rod crews and they make good stuff, they do however demand an arm and a leg for there stuff. It sound like you already have the new radiator, if not give Alumarad in Kingman a call, this guy is the best, give him the dimensions of your hoses, and the outlet configurations and he makes the radiator (cross flow or top flow) with the outlets where they need to be.

[Her454]

Socal, the are on the Dell, which is dead right now...:mad:
Her454 posted some awhile back, the car is black, genuine 25 year old laquer paint starting to "patina" if ya know what I mean. Stock frame, 8inch rear on leafs, late front IFS using Ford Rack and Chevy Disc brakes, Red rims, chrome outers and Ford Delxe Caps. Hunkered down for the right stance.
Old mohair interior, you get the idea. My dad and I drug it out of a backyard in San Pedro where it was being used as a chicken coop in 1974.
We stripped it to bare frame, dipped the body, and Dad built a flatmotor like he raced on the lakes back in the day.
He got to drive it about 2 years before cancer got him.
Here ya go Jeff, not the best quality pics but they were still in my archives. Love the license plate....says it all.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/139FBT1.jpg
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/139FBT12.jpg
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/139FBT13.jpg
And of course one of my favorite pics of the stuff FBT has in his yard LOL...
This is what his son was sportin on the side of the Yota...made me laugh when I saw it:)
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/139FBT14.jpg

[boats&bars]

I have use Ron Davis Radiators in the past and had great results.

[Flyinbowtie]

Im confused, correct me if I misunderstood you. You claim the car runs great and in the "slow" conditions you turn on the fan, and it runs to 200. So your didn't have a problem?
You are now going to a 2 row aluminium running at 16lbs, and you know for a fact that this will make the car run cooler, so the only question is the fan?
You had a front mount fan that worked fine in the "old big block" set up, why change? If looks are not an issue run it on the front and push the air, your efficiency drops something like 12% (don't flame me, I just don't remember) when pushing instead of pulling, but that is already established as acceptable.
You said you had to "turn on the fan", this is completely unacceptable to us when we do any conversion. You do not want the chance of the engine overheating if you involved in some conversation, or some one else drives the car, we use Centech controllers for fans, it has an adjustable (external) pot know and you can set the turn on temp. We also combine this with electric water pumps that run anywhere from 25 to 45 GP. The combination in Jeeps with small blocks can run the water temp at 160 to 180 idling with 110 degree outside temps.
Someone mentioned Mathenson Radiators, they are good, they cater to the hot rod crews and they make good stuff, they do however demand an arm and a leg for there stuff. It sound like you already have the new radiator, if not give Alumarad in Kingman a call, this guy is the best, give him the dimensions of your hoses, and the outlet configurations and he makes the radiator (cross flow or top flow) with the outlets where they need to be.
Baja,
I guess something got lost in the translation.
The prior engine was a 3/8x3/8 stroker flathead, not a big block.
The current 302, using the modded 27 year old Walker Radiator, designed for the flat head, ran cool under way, and in parking lot(cruise-in) type traffic, or other low speed-high heat situations, I turned on the fan. I did run thermostatically controlled switch, set at 190, but could over ride it, which I did, and it kept the temp under 200. That was acceptable to me.
I did this to avoid losing coolant via the radiator's built-in 8 lb. thermostat, because losing coolant on a road trip is not acceptable to me.
The Walker is worn beyond economically realistic repair.
I've run electric water pumps on other off-road high-compression, high H.P SBC off-road projects. I prefer mechanical pumps in those applications, although I have not tried an electric on the street; have not found a ase where it made sense.
So, back to the story.The front mounted fan did work effectively on the 302 with the old radiator, and I have no reason to not expect the same results with the new radiator. My question was regarding opinions on which would be more efficient, the 16 inch pusher or the 13 inch puller on the new radiator. Using your figure of 12% loss pushing, I can run the numbers and come up with a fballpark figure to compare the cfm.
Asthetics is an issue, that black fan against the aluminum radiator visible through the grillwork on a '40 is simply ugly, IMHO.
Thanks for the thoughts and the numbers. It all helps.
T, thanks for posting the pics. I wish the damn shop looked that clean now:rolleyes:
That 4Runner was bought by some kid in town who has it all tricked out now.
Chris bought and sold it twice, and still has mixed feelings about it.
'Course, he wishes the old man hadn't sold the sand rail, too.
But he don't need 600+ponies in 1540 lbs to play with, either.

[GUGS102]

oddly enough..I have both of those sitting in the garage (unused)...you want em..they will be for ya..(on the house)
Karl,
If you are not using that set up I'd be interested in it. I'd love another 1.5" clearance on the falcon. I could put the AC back on!
As for the original thread - I had a similar problem with a 9:1 302 with SVO aluminum heads, Ron davis rad and a 3300cfm puller fan. I could not keep it cool. 195-160 T stat and always had problems. Also tried the flex fan set up to no avail. Finally I moved the rad out to accomodate a clutch fan and the problem has been cured since. With the puller fan at speed they tend to freewheel creating an area of high pressure in the rad core and the air travels around the fan area. At least that's how I understand it. That is why at slow speed or in a parking lot it stays cool on the elec fan but heats up on the road. Then again, it's phoenix so nothing stays cool!
Can't wait for it to cool off so I can go back to driving this thing more.