tunnel ram or single carb edelbrock 850

[gas Hogg]

I have a question for you guy's. I have just built a balanced 460 bbf with aluminum heads roller rockers and a few other of the goodies. I purchased a new 12 berkely pump that I had balanced with a a/b impeller and installed a loader into it. My boat is a 18' sleekcraft. The deal is that i have a offenhauser tunnel ram with dual holley 600's. But my jet builder told me that since my exhaust goes through my transom that I would loose a 100 horse power and the tunnel ram would not be a good idea. He said I would not have enough rpm for the tunnel ram to work correctly. I have purchased a edelbrock performer with a 850 edelbrock carb to bolt onto it. I was finishing bolting the engine up when I made the mistake of setting the tunnel ram onto the block HOLY SHIT it looks good. But I know that I will also get 50 hp out of my flame stickers. So any ideas?
Thanks,
JW

[pw_Tony]

I have a question for you guy's. I have just built a balanced 460 bbf with aluminum heads roller rockers and a few other of the goodies. I purchased a new 12 berkely pump that I had balanced with a a/b impeller and installed a loader into it. My boat is a 18' sleekcraft. The deal is that i have a offenhauser tunnel ram with dual holley 600's. But my jet builder told me that since my exhaust goes through my transom that I would loose a 100 horse power and the tunnel ram would not be a good idea. He said I would not have enough rpm for the tunnel ram to work correctly. I have purchased a edelbrock performer with a 850 edelbrock carb to bolt onto it. I was finishing bolting the engine up when I made the mistake of setting the tunnel ram onto the block HOLY SHIT it looks good. But I know that I will also get 50 hp out of my flame stickers. So any ideas?
Thanks,
JW
You have a performer intake or an Performer RPM?

[Squirtcha?]

I have a question for you guy's. I have just built a balanced 460 bbf with aluminum heads roller rockers and a few other of the goodies. I purchased a new 12 berkely pump that I had balanced with a a/b impeller and installed a loader into it. My boat is a 18' sleekcraft. The deal is that i have a offenhauser tunnel ram with dual holley 600's. But my jet builder told me that since my exhaust goes through my transom that I would loose a 100 horse power and the tunnel ram would not be a good idea. He said I would not have enough rpm for the tunnel ram to work correctly. I have purchased a edelbrock performer with a 850 edelbrock carb to bolt onto it. I was finishing bolting the engine up when I made the mistake of setting the tunnel ram onto the block HOLY SHIT it looks good. But I know that I will also get 50 hp out of my flame stickers. So any ideas?
Thanks,
JW
I'm not sure you would lose anything with the tunnelram, but you probably won't gain anything either (other than worse fuel economy).
This subject is one that has been done to death and can be found by doing a search. Not sure what exactly the correct wording would be to find it though.

[gas Hogg]

It's a edelbrock 460 torqer (spelling?) I knew there was not enough information in that short story. I did the same old thing just kept buying more and more for the engine. It also has the MSD ignition and 8mm wires.

[gas Hogg]

Squirtcha, I know what your saying. That's the problem I have looked it up until I'm blue in the face. A million stories with no conclusion. I'd hate to loose out on performance just because I need to stroke my ego.

[pw_Tony]

With all the fancy smancy stuff that's on your motor, if you're going to stick with a 4-barrel manifold, I think there might be more to gain with a different 4-barrel manifold. I had a torker on my 460 and almost threw it away cause I couldn't use sell it worth a damn.
Tunnel Rams look cool :D

[LakesOnly]

It's a edelbrock 460 torqer (spelling?) The Torker 460 cannot hold a candle to the tunnel ram setup. In fact it is a low rpm intake and would not work well on ANY jet boat like yours, meaning that all other intakes are superior to it, even the factory iron intake will kick its ass in a jet boat application.
The tunnel ram has the potential to produce the greatest amount of power on your Ford engine, and while tunnel rams will offer power improvement from the mid-range on up, the fact remains that jet pumps require ever increasing hp in order to turn them so much as another measely 100 rpm (ie, more and more hp is required as rpms go up)...so, while it's a good thing that you have an A/B impeller (which allows your engine to approach rpm range where the tunnel ram will really shine), whether or not you feel it in the seat of your pants (or see it on the GPS) remains to be seen and is not very likely. Depends on the rest of your build. In short, I've seen about a 50hp increase at the dyno when switching from a single carb to a tunnel ram, and with that in mind how much more rpm can you get from your jet pump with just 50 more horsepower? (yes, much more hp can be gained with a tunnel ram at much higher rpms, but most jet boat engines don't operate up there.)
The point about the "thru-transom exhaust versus the headers" is generally true, in that you can conceivably lose close to triple digit hp, BUT this has more to do with the difference between the two exhaust systems in question than it does the induction system. Your engine will still generate substantially greater hp with the tunnel ram and logs than it would with the single 4-bbl and logs. But the virtues of the tunnel ram are not fully taken advantage of with the logs (compared to open headers).
If you have not run a tunnel ram with two 4-bbl carbs, you will be downright shocked at the fuel consumption. Go to the bank first and have your credit limit increased on all your credit cards so that you can continue to purchase lots and lots of fuel.
If you don't want to do that, then I suggest an Edelbrock Victor 460 intake manofold and Holley 850 double pumper, List # 4781. Please do not put that Edelbrock carb on your jet boat.:(
LO

[speedymopars]

I've run every kind of manifold there is. The tunnel ram with give you more power everywhere. The reason people say it "loses" power is simply because they overcarb. If your engine needed 700-800 CFM before, and now you throw a tunnelram on there with 2 700 CFM double pumpers, well guess what, you are very over carbed at 1400 cfm.
The best factory manifold in the 60's was a long ram chrysler. It hung the carbs out over the fenders and the runners were 2 feet long. power range was up to 4700. Longer the runners, the better the bottom end. Todays engines have a dry manfold, and if you look at the factory maniolds offered today all of them have the runners going around in a big circle making them really long.
the tunnel rams have much longer runners than a performer, the plennum is bigger, and the charge doesn't have to take a turn.
run the tunnelram with some small carbs, the 1850 vac secondary (600 cfm) works well or the 660 center squirters if you have a much bigger cam with head work. When you mash the throttle with the 1850's, you are only metering 600 cfm total and you should have great throttle response. The secondaries may open above 3500/4000, but not until they are needed.

[YeLLowBoaT]

. leaes do not put that Edelbrock carb on your jet boat.:(
LO
Why don't you care for the edelbrock carbs? more just wondering then anything else.

[speedymopars]

Why don't you care for the edelbrock carbs? more just wondering then anything else.
My experiance with off road says they don't like to bounce, and spill fuel easily. Just my observations, wouldn't want that prob with my boat.

[YeLLowBoaT]

My experiance with off road says they don't like to bounce, and spill fuel easily. Just my observations, wouldn't want that prob with my boat.
that would be a very good reason. never had one in a boat, put one on my mustang and never had a prob with it.

[LakesOnly]

Why don't you care for the edelbrock carbs? more just wondering then anything else.The Holley 850 will almost invariably make more power and can be more precisely tuned for upper rpm fuel delivery.
I like Carter (Edlebrock) carbs and have run them on other vehicles...in this particular case (jet boat) it's more a matter of the most appropriate carbuetor for the application. Best analogy right now would be the point of running the (upper rpm applicable) Victor 460 over the (low rpm applicable) Torker, which is just not right for the jet boat.
LO

[speedymopars]

that would be a very good reason. never had one in a boat, put one on my mustang and never had a prob with it.
I've run them in plenty of street cars (and they worked well), but always had a problem with them in off road situations.

[gas Hogg]

okay so it looks like I want to go the tunnel ram as long as I want to fill the two tanks up ALOT. Being that I take my boat out of the water every time that will not bother me that much. As far as the other set up it's a 850 marine edelbrock. I thought I would be safer with the marine model. The two holley 600's where just rebuilt and should be ready to go. I was just worried about breaking in the engine with trying to tune in two carburetors. Chris Zootis in Healdsburg built the motor for me and he said he would set up the carbs but it will take awhile before he can fit me in.
I had built this engine wanting to go with the tunnel ram. I realized the gas problem but my company can pay for most of it. So with what you are saying I'm thinking of going that way.
But would it be better for the engine to break it in with the single carb?
Thanks again your web site looks great and you will hear from me soon. There's a few more parts I could use.

[thatguy]

Are you a racer? Do you get time slips?
If not, who cares if you give up a little dyno power. (I don't think you will)
Run The TR! Every time you launch with the 4 bbl and some guy slips his boat in with all the goodies and a tunnel ram, well, you may wish you had it on.
Face it, we LOVE to show off our boats, AND go fast!
I did the same thing. Agonized over which to put on. I went with my polished TR and the 2 660's that came on it. Best move I ever made. (454 w/Brodix Al. Heads)
Boat hauls arse! AND looks killer. Now it may or may not go faster without it, but it starts and idles perfect, (1000 RPM), goes 86 GPS'd, and the girls love it and their boyfriends are jealous!
Yeah, I know the gas pump guy by his first name, but so what?;)
Do the right thing. TR.
Tommy

[Squirtcha?]

Here are links to some threads (archived) where this subject has been covered before. I just didn't want to type all that stuff again.
To summarize................Been there done that. Switched from a Holley 850 dp and dual plane manifold to a tunnelram and two 660s. Gained nothing and was further awarded with some really piss poor mileage.
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51157&highlight=tunnelram
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124722&highlight=tunnelram
There are some more under the search header, but much of it is repeated.
http://www.***boat.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2023320
Good luck with whatever you decide.

[LuckyDaze]

I have heard people complain about fuel economy with their Tunnel Ram and that tells me that their engine is over carbed. I have TR and I get GREAT economy. However people tell me that I am under carbed. I launched from Topac, ran my boat down to the sand bar, then down the the Havasu channel, screwed around and did a couple of high speed full throttle fun times on my way to copper canyon, then back up to the channel, then back to the sand bar, and play'd around some more and then back to Topac. Total usage for the day was 11 gallons. I have two 11 gallon tanks in my boat and I had a smidge under 1/2 when I pulled her back on the trailer. That was with my tunnel ram and lots of fun for the day.
I am running an old school Offy with dual 450's on my 454. Im running about 10 to 1 with a fairly lumpy cam and she pulls 5200 RPM with an A impeller. I couldn't ask for more. I love the setup. :) So, Go with the tunnel ram and carb according to your needs, too much and you'll be wasting fuel. They look great and my boat is like driving with fuel injection. My engine pulls so hard on those little 450's that it is responsive as all hell.
~Brian

[speedymopars]

I can only relate to street cars but - An engine takes a specific amount of fuel to make a specific horsepower. A jet takes a specific hp to drive a specific RPM. If you have too much fuel, then you get poor mileage. If you don't have enough, you don't make enough power.
A tunnelram itself will not make your mileage go down, but if you throw too big of carbs on there, then you will make the carbs rich (change in metering signal), and you will have poor milage. Performance, mileage and response can be gained back by changing the jet size to a smaller set on the carbs.
On my duster, when it had the smaller engine in it, I saw a 1 mpg increase in highway fuel mileage with the tunnel ram once everything was tuned.
Now, this is assuming you keep everything the same.
If you bump the carbs up in size (total CFM), you can flow more air, hence more fuel at WOT, and there your mileage may go "down" but it's the same if you went from a 600 cfm 4 bbl to an 850 DP. It all gets back to brake specific fuel consumption. You are making more HP, so you need more air, and the additional fuel that goes with it.
If you ran a 900 CFM single 4 bbl on an intake, then converted to 2 450CFM's on a tunnelram, you would make more HP everywhere do to the efficiancy of the intake, but you would see little to no change in mileage. It's all in the carb tuning.

[pw_Tony]

Have had a lot of success with the 450 Holley Double Pumpers

[gas Hogg]

Well it looks like I now have a 850 marine edelbrock carb for sale. New in the box as the saying goes. I'm bolting the TR up tonight, thanks for the input. Sounds like I have a new boat anchor with the manifold. Paid a hundred for it then bead blasted it so no big loss. :idea:

[speedymopars]

Well it looks like I now have a 850 marine edelbrock carb for sale. New in the box as the saying goes. I'm bolting the TR up tonight, thanks for the input. Sounds like I have a new boat anchor with the manifold. Paid a hundred for it then bead blasted it so no big loss. :idea:
Just for clarification - I have never run an edelbrock marine carb, so my comments may be baseless. I have only run the auto versions.
Sell the carb and manifold as a package, I'm sure someone off ebay will buy it :-)

[Sleeper CP]

If you have not run a tunnel ram with two 4-bbl carbs, you will be downright shocked at the fuel consumption. Go to the bank first and have your credit limit increased on all your credit cards so that you can continue to purchase lots and lots of fuel.
LO
Lakes,
Since I have never tuned a T/R, other that running small carbs how do you tune it to save as much fuel as passable. Jets, power valves, progressive throttle linkage etc. I would guess with the proper adjustments of all of the above someone could get their tune up pretty good as far as fuel consumption.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[speedymopars]

Also, when you set it up, put some heavier springs in the secondaries to keep them from opening right away (brown or black), and get the balance canister to make sure they open together. Once you do that, get the main jets and the squirters dialed in, then start playing with the secondary spring. If you have a motor with good airflow, you may be able to get away with the silver or purple spring (lighter), if it is a hyd motor, the brown or the black will probably be the spring of choice (heavier). It is going to depend on a lot of factors, but the spring kit will be a tuning item for you.
When you mash the throttle, you will only be hitting it with 600 CFM, so you shouldn't have to worry. My guestimation is that the brown or black spring will have the seconadries come in around 3000 RPM or so.

[speedymopars]

Lakes,
Since I have never tuned a T/R, other that running small carbs how do you tune it to save as much fuel as passable. Jets, power valves, progressive throttle linkage etc. I would guess with the proper adjustments of all of the above someone could get their tune up pretty good as far as fuel consumption.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
Get a vaccum gauge. It will be the most handy thing you can get.
Set the idle where you want it (speed wise).
Adjust the idle mixture screws to get max vaccum. Play with the idle speed and mixture screws until they are all the same and the vaccum is maxed. A unisyc can really help you balance out the airflow.
Take that idle vac reading, and cut it in half. That is your power valve size.
If you want to save gas, change the main jets so that you achive the max vaccum at a nrmal cruise RPM. Say, you cruise all the time at 3500 RPM. Put the black spring in the secondaries so they don't open, and start leaning the mains out. When you hit max vac for the rpm, the engine is a peek efficiancy. You can lean it another jet size or two from there to really get better mileage.
Start playing with the secondary springs to have them come in earlier(lighter spring)
Now, here is where a different carb would be a little better. You would then adjust the secondary jets to compensate for the lean primaries, IE, jet the secondaries for max MPH, but you most likely have a non adjustible plate instead. You may have to buy a high flow power valve if you cannot achieve the MPH you want, or bump the primaries back up a jet size and compromise between max milage and MPH. A double pumper also has a secondary power valve too, so you could play with that if you had it. I would go ahead and get the High flow PV so you can make the mains really lean.
For you the max MPH is going to be a balance of the secondary spring and the main jetting (the PV adds the equiv of 8-12 main jet sizes).
Time to move on to the squirters . Once your idle and jetting is dialed in, you may have a hesitation. If you punch it and your boat dies, then goes, you need to bump the squirter size up until the hesitation stops.
Once that happens, your boat may go, hesitate, then go again. That says you need to increase the acc pump cam size to match the new squirter requirements. If you hit the max cam size, then you need to upgrade to 50 cc pumps (I doubt you will need that). This is going to be a balance between secondary opening rate, and the amount of fuel the engine needs from the pump circuit.
Good luck!

[Sleeper CP]

My guestimation is that the brown or black spring will have the seconadries come in around 3000 RPM or so.
His boat will be at ski rpm's at 3,000-3,200 I don't think he wants the secondaries opening there. And he should be using Double Pumpers I would guess:confused:
Sleeper CP

[speedymopars]

His boat will be at ski rpm's at 3,000-3,200 I don't think he wants the secondaries opening there. And he should be using Double Pumpers I would guess:confused:
Sleeper CP
He said he had a pair of 600's, I was assuming the 0-1850s which are vac secondaries. The brown spring *may* crack the secondaries at 3K, but they aren't gonna be open per say. That is what I meant. In looking at the airflow, the black one probably won't start to crack them until 4000 or so, and even then, they will never open the secondaries up all the way. They will become a pair of 500's best case.
Gass, are those double pumpers or Vaccums?

[gas Hogg]

wow thanks for all of the help. I have a set of holley's that I'm going to purchase the spring kit for today at lunch. My next issue is that Jim at perfomance jet who built my pump for me told me to break in the engine with out the jet hooked up. He said the stage three kit cam out perfect and he didn't want it to messed up. Of course I'm going to take his advice. Would it be easier to break in my engine with the single carb. Because I have to bolt the engine in the boat break it in then remove it and install it again so I can hook up the jet. At this time I could install the tunnel ram then hit the lake to do the basic set up on the carb's so I could test the issues about stalling and so on. I've had several boats over the years but until I went through my divorce I have never been able to build a new set up from scratch like this.

[speedymopars]

wow thanks for all of the help. I have a set of holley's that I'm going to purchase the spring kit for today at lunch. My next issue is that Jim at perfomance jet who built my pump for me told me to break in the engine with out the jet hooked up. He said the stage three kit cam out perfect and he didn't want it to messed up. Of course I'm going to take his advice. Would it be easier to break in my engine with the single carb. Because I have to bolt the engine in the boat break it in then remove it and install it again so I can hook up the jet. At this time I could install the tunnel ram then hit the lake to do the basic set up on the carb's so I could test the issues about stalling and so on. I've had several boats over the years but until I went through my divorce I have never been able to build a new set up from scratch like this.
When you have the option, simpler is better for that critical break in. A single carb is great for that, one less thing to go wrong.

[gas Hogg]

There vacuum. It looks like I should bite the bullet and purchase the double pumpers. I'm in this far I want to finish it correctly and keep the problems as small as possable.

[Squirtcha?]

I have heard people complain about fuel economy with their Tunnel Ram and that tells me that their engine is over carbed. I have TR and I get GREAT economy. However people tell me that I am under carbed. I launched from Topac, ran my boat down to the sand bar, then down the the Havasu channel, screwed around and did a couple of high speed full throttle fun times on my way to copper canyon, then back up to the channel, then back to the sand bar, and play'd around some more and then back to Topac. Total usage for the day was 11 gallons. I have two 11 gallon tanks in my boat and I had a smidge under 1/2 when I pulled her back on the trailer. That was with my tunnel ram and lots of fun for the day.
I am running an old school Offy with dual 450's on my 454. Im running about 10 to 1 with a fairly lumpy cam and she pulls 5200 RPM with an A impeller. I couldn't ask for more. I love the setup. :) So, Go with the tunnel ram and carb according to your needs, too much and you'll be wasting fuel. They look great and my boat is like driving with fuel injection. My engine pulls so hard on those little 450's that it is responsive as all hell.
~Brian
I agree with much if not all of this. I feel a need to quantify
my earlier post. Am I over carbed? Most likely. Went from a
single 850 to two 660's and since there were no gains performance-wise
that kind jumps right out at you and says the 850 was sufficient.
I was actually speaking more towards the lack of performance
gains than my poor fuel economy. My two buddies made the
switch to a TR and ran vacume secondary type carbs. Same
motor, same hull. They didn't pick up any gains, but they didn't
suffer the poor milage that mine did with the 660 center squirters.
In fact they didn't see much of a difference at all in fuel economy.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Tres_Kachinas.jpg
Is it in tune? Yeah I'm pretty sure it is. It starts with the bump
of a key, idles perfectly and has no flat spots from idle to WOT.
The plugs look great too. Lots of guys run the 660s and nobody
complains about the performance or the way they work, but
you don't hear any/many of them bragging about fuel economy either.
Here's a short clip of mine starting, idling, and accelerating with the
660s. It runs good despite the crappy mileage. It might be a tad fat,
but I don't think jetting alone would affect the mileage that much.
http://www.zippyvideos.com/28768530977645/dans_chena/
Not sure what I'm going to do long term. Hoping to put together a
stroker motor this winter and will probably change carbs and possibly
manifold. Just not sure what to go with yet. In any case, the 660s
will get swapped out to something else.

[Sleeper CP]

There vacuum. It looks like I should bite the bullet and purchase the double pumpers. I'm in this far I want to finish it correctly and keep the problems as small as possable.
If you already have them and if you can set them up correctly I don't know if you want to sell them.
If others on here or elsewhere can help you with the tune up I'd try to run them first. Just my .02
Sleeper CP

[Warp Speed]

The biggest thing I like about a dual carb set up is the ability to tune part throttle fuel distribution. My experience with jet boats is very limited (about 8 months), but I have years of experience testing part and wide open throttle fuel distribution both on the dyno and track with o2 sensors.
Anyone that has done much of this knows what a nightmare cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution is at part throttle using a single carb, single plane manifold. Couple that with vaccuam actuated or progressive linkage secondaries, and it can become a mess real quick. This is especialy critical on a jet boat that is constantly loaded, and spend most of it's time a part throttle.
With basicly a venturi for every cylinder, a tunnel ram / dual four barrel set-up (especialy with 1 to 1 linkage) gives us the ability to easily tune each cylinder individualy for best part throttle and wide open conditions. Especialy when mounted sideways, as the angle of the butterflies at part throttle have less influance in directing flow.
When properly tuned they can give comparable fuel mileage, a gain in performance (especialy in the 4000-6500 rpm range), plus the all important "bling" factor.
Warp Speed

[LuckyDaze]

The biggest thing I like about a dual carb set up is the ability to tune part throttle fuel distribution. My experience with jet boats is very limited (about 8 months), but I have years of experience testing part and wide open throttle fuel distribution both on the dyno and track with o2 sensors.
Anyone that has done much of this knows what a nightmare cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution is at part throttle using a single carb, single plane manifold. Couple that with vaccuam actuated or progressive linkage secondaries, and it can become a mess real quick. This is especialy critical on a jet boat that is constantly loaded, and spend most of it's time a part throttle.
With basicly a venturi for every cylinder, a tunnel ram / dual four barrel set-up (especialy with 1 to 1 linkage) gives us the ability to easily tune each cylinder individualy for best part throttle and wide open conditions. Especialy when mounted sideways, as the angle of the butterflies at part throttle have less influance in directing flow.
When properly tuned they can give comparable fuel mileage, a gain in performance (especialy in the 4000-6500 rpm range), plus the all important "bling" factor.
Warp Speed
This was the exact reason I went with a tunnel ram. I was having a couple of cylinders lean out at part throttle. I wouldn't have noticed it had I not gone for a twilight run and saw those primaries glowing. The boat had a three barrel 950 with vacuum secondary and it did ok for what it was. I went with the dual 450's because of the small venturi size and the total of 900 CFM so I could still pull my top end. Smaller venturis and a longer runner meant a higher velocity and better atomization of the air/fuel mix when it hit the cylinder.
I've seen guys run 660 center squirter's and 700's on blower motors and I always figured those engines would be a bit more fuel hungry than my little TR'd 454. I also went with mechanical secondaries as I have had issues with vacuum secondaries in the past, that and I always thought I had better throttle control and better fuel mileage with mechs.
~Brian

[speedymopars]

There vacuum. It looks like I should bite the bullet and purchase the double pumpers. I'm in this far I want to finish it correctly and keep the problems as small as possable.
If you spent the money to put in a solid roller cam and have some aftermarket heads - go the double pumper route.
Otherwise, stick with the vac secondaries, you will be happier. A bog from 1200-1500 CFM opening at 1500 RPM's (and the resulting fuel dump killing off the mileage) may be more of a tuning issue than you want to deal with.
If you want the mileage and the power, what you have is going to work best. When you want max HP/RPM and don't care about mileage; then the DP's will out perform what you have.

[speedymopars]

I agree with much if not all of this. I feel a need to quantify
my earlier post. Am I over carbed? Most likely. Went from a
single 850 to two 660's and since there were no gains performance-wise
that kind jumps right out at you and says the 850 was sufficient.
I was actually speaking more towards the lack of performance
gains than my poor fuel economy. My two buddies made the
switch to a TR and ran vacume secondary type carbs. Same
motor, same hull. They didn't pick up any gains, but they didn't
suffer the poor milage that mine did with the 660 center squirters.
In fact they didn't see much of a difference at all in fuel economy.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Tres_Kachinas.jpg
Is it in tune? Yeah I'm pretty sure it is. It starts with the bump
of a key, idles perfectly and has no flat spots from idle to WOT.
The plugs look great too. Lots of guys run the 660s and nobody
complains about the performance or the way they work, but
you don't hear any/many of them bragging about fuel economy either.
Here's a short clip of mine starting, idling, and accelerating with the
660s. It runs good despite the crappy mileage. It might be a tad fat,
but I don't think jetting alone would affect the mileage that much.
http://www.zippyvideos.com/28768530977645/dans_chena/
Not sure what I'm going to do long term. Hoping to put together a
stroker motor this winter and will probably change carbs and possibly
manifold. Just not sure what to go with yet. In any case, the 660s
will get swapped out to something else.
The 660's are center squirters, designed for TR max performance and little else. The pump shot is incredibly fat and good, and the pri and secondaries open on 1:1. The dogleg's are great for dumping fuel too. That is a WOT carb, and the mid range can't really be leaned out sufficiently to get good mileage. They do OK steady state, but dumping 50 CC's (X2!) everytime you crack the throttle isn't gonna help the mileage. Of course the instant you get rid of them you are gonna want the throttle response back :-)
If you want to do a bit better, get an annular discharge type booster, they don't need as much pump shot to get going, and can help mileage tremendously (while keeping the performance). My fav (and the pair I run) are 9381 Holleys (830 CFM annular's) or the 8896's. You need a motor under that to run a pair of them though.

[hotbo]

i like tunnel rams cause there always behind me in someon elses boat.:D i think they are a waste like alot of other things that are the norm for jet boats:idea: we had a torker on a bbc and it worked great in a 20 foot lp for 10 years:jawdrop: changed to a team g and the sob lost power,dont now on ferds but always have worked great on chebbys for us:D
im a single carb guy by heart love the look of the t-rams but thats it.ive won my ole mans won and my bro has beat more t-ram LAKE BOATS[key word lake boats] than we can count woth our smaller single carbs. if your damn boat only turns 5500 for arguing sake why in the hell do you want 1400cfm,1320cfm ect.:confused: never consume it.does no good but waste fuel.on the other hand there are alot of peeps that will tell me im crazy but thats okay i have a opinion also and this is mine.edelbrock carbs suck ive seen holleys on dyno the track lake dirt whatever kick there ass all over the place.when you put a holley on its all good.imo.tall single plane 850 holley and go to the lake and have fun.later travis.

[Sleeper CP]

Just in case you couldn't tell Travis doesn't think much about TRs
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[speedymopars]

Travis, open up - share your feelings with the group :D
Naa, jk of course. ;) We all have our opinions, and I respect yours.
I agree, if your motor needs 800 CFM - you need 800 CFM, doesn't matter if it is 1, 2, or 10 carbs. Too much CFM kills the metering signal, causes the fuel to stall and puddle, and viola - bad mileage and performance. I would say that is the majority of TR setups. If ya can't get the CFM down to where you need it, don't bother...
In the testing I've done, the only thing that comes close to a TR in performance is an annular dominator on a big single plane (but even then it is down a few lbs in tq). Edelbrock makes the best single carb manifolds, with the exception of a Team G on a BBMopar (which is better than the torker, but that is the only one I've found). I especially like the performer RPM series. BTW - if you have too big of carb, you can get it "smaller" by throwing it on a dual plane. If you have a motor that likes around 750 CFM on a single plane, it will want an 850 on a dual.
The effective ability to tune each cylinder on the TR coupled with the great fuel distribution capabilities, is a good one to have.

[hotbo]

Just in case you couldn't tell Travis doesn't think much about TRs
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
sorry guys i jusr reread what i posted and sounded like a a-hole.i apologize sometimes i get carried away my bad.:jawdrop: anyway there is always gonna be arguing over the t-ramvssingle carb do what will fit you the best and screw the rest.oncelagain sorry guys i came across being a dick.later travis

[gas Hogg]

Travis I didn't take it that way. The only good thing is that I'm sure I will be drinking alot beer with new people while talking about the TR or not issue. I have the wood and fiberglass cover that goes on the back of my boat so I was going for the sleeper look. But that closed combustion chamber idea was messing with my head. So I figured if I use the TR I can take the middle of the hatch off. This way I will be using the TR for safety reasons not for the bling factor. ;) I bolted everything up last night and the moment came to bolt on the TR and my children ran down to tell me it's time to put them to bed.(single father). Well there's always tonight. By the way this is my first ford in my entire life. Hopefully I don't get FORD FEVER and something bad happens with the motor.

[speedymopars]

sorry guys i jusr reread what i posted and sounded like a a-hole.i apologize sometimes i get carried away my bad.:jawdrop: anyway there is always gonna be arguing over the t-ramvssingle carb do what will fit you the best and screw the rest.oncelagain sorry guys i came across being a dick.later travis
I didn't think you were being a dick at all :)
You had valid points, and they are still true. Don't overcarb, no matter what your manifold is, otherwise expensive boat anchor.......

[H20MOFO]

I Just Have A Single 4 Tr.(edelbrock Ur2x). I've Never Had Any Thing Else On The Boat So I Have Nothing To Compare It To. But I Have It In My Mind When That Thing Starts To Sweat.(it'll Almost Frost Up) It Got To Be Better (denser Charge)?

[Sleeper CP]

I didn't think you were being a dick at all :)
You had valid points, and they are still true. Don't overcarb, no matter what your manifold is, otherwise expensive boat anchor.......
Ditto for me Travis.
It's not that I think you were being a dick at all. I just like your candor on the subject and as Speedy posted " You had some valid points". All of which I agree with.
As discussed before and it will be discussed again; it really comes down to a "looks" thing ( a little Bling) for the boat. Because most 470 some inch or smaller,5,500 rpm big blocks don't need a TR. A good single plane will out perform them nearly every time. Not always, but usually. But the TR wins on the looks factor.
So, just keep expressing yourself the way you did. It's refreshing.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[hotbo]

Ditto for me Travis.
It's not that I think you were being a dick at all. I just like your candor on the subject and as Speedy posted " You had some valid points". All of which I agree with.
As discussed before and it will be discussed again; it really comes down to a "looks" thing ( a little Bling) for the boat. Because most 470 some inch or smaller,5,500 rpm big blocks don't need a TR. A good single plane will out perform them nearly every time. Not always, but usually. But the TR wins on the looks factor.
So, just keep expressing yourself the way you did. It's refreshing.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
well thanks guys i dont want anyone pissed off at me for my comments:jawdrop:
well i argue this alot with the seastrum boys:D its all in fun i believe in single carbs of anysize and they are t-ram freaks b/c they say on the dyno they have made up to 100hp at the same rpm range,bullshit i call it everytime just to make them pull the sheets out lol!!!!!!:D but i could care less the proof word of mouth ect.now in certian cases big cubic inches,drag boat so forth yeS they have there place most deffenitly,sorry my pelling sucks,lol!!!!:idea:
when i say lake boat i mean runs on 93 pump gas and goes up down the lake or river all day not unloading going to a sand bar and b.s about who your gonna kick ass on with your c-12 or alchohol boat;) its all in fun and i love the look of a t-ram boat and no there not hard to tune done a few for friends my ole man showed me a thing or 2.i just feel in my heart that a sinlge carb will do all you ever wanna do with a fast lake boat better fuel economy,better atomization distribution so forth.no matter what like i said whatever you end up with if your happy thats all that matters:D sorry your a single dad bro. i have a 19month old boy whom i love dearly and i argue all the time with my wife,lol!!!best of luck bro.
hey sleeper you are slow,just playing get that thing tuned in bro and kick ass.later travis

[Sleeper CP]

[QUOTE=hotbo;
hey sleeper you are slow,just playing get that thing tuned in bro and kick ass.later travis[/QUOTE]
The impeller is out now being trimmed back, shooting to turn it at 6,100- 6,200 off the bottle.
That should get us to 94-96 off the bottle maybe a little higher with one of the new shoes that
we are getting made.(Fingers crossed)
I'll let you know after next weekend.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[speedymopars]

Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other half
I love that. I took a full size, full interior Dodge B200 3/4 ton van into the 12's. I had more fun racing that then I care to admit to. I would always be in the staging lanes looking for someone with a modified mustand (or vette) to spank. I'd line up with them then keep talking about how I needed to line up with someone else, please be easy on me, etc. We would get to the line, and I would usually spank them by 5-10 cars. That van would HOOK. Today as it sits, it probably would go into the 11's, but the local track closed down before these last rounds of mods were ever raced (went from a peg to a spool, 2.7 to a 3.23), loser convertor, and some headwork. I ran high 12's going through the traps in 2nd gear @ 4000 RPM. Tell me there wasn't more in it :)
My 01 lifted jeep runs high 14's now. My duster, well should run high 8's worst case. I love taking stuff that shouldn't go fast and making it that way. It will be the same with boats. Drive it anywhere, brutal power when I need (want) it.
I can make a single carb go fast, I can make duals go even faster - so I'm a bit prejudiced. CP the fact you knew to run the 450's says you know what you are doing too :-)

[pw_Tony]

What local track would that be?

[speedymopars]

What local track would that be?
Carlsbad and TI.
Now LACR is closed, need to go all the way to Fontana.

[pw_Tony]

Used to run a 1972 Duster up there all the time. Now I live in Bullhead, but my father still races the car at Barona. Have some pics from last weekend of it if interested....

[Sleeper CP]

Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other half
I love that. I took a full size, full interior Dodge B200 3/4 ton van into the 12's. I had more fun racing that then I care to admit to.
I can make a single carb go fast, I can make duals go even faster - so I'm a bit prejudiced. CP the fact you knew to run the 450's says you know what you are doing too :-)
What were you smoking to build a 3/4 ton drag van? What did it weigh in at?
On the other quote : I try, but you can learn something new everyday.
Sleeper Cp
Big Inch Ford Lover

[DEL51]

Infomaniac is building a blown BBC minivan, searc the blower section on the forums.

[speedymopars]

[QUOTE=pw383426;2788414]Used to run a 1972 Duster up there all the time. Now I live in Bullhead, but my father still races the car at Barona. Have some pics from last weekend of it if interested....[/QUOT
Sure!

[speedymopars]

What were you smoking to build a 3/4 ton drag van? What did it weigh in at?
On the other quote : I try, but you can learn something new everyday.
Sleeper Cp
Big Inch Ford Lover
I had this 77 dodge van sitting in the backyard, small block powered, that I had driven down to el golfo de Mexico (40 miles on the beach to the campsite). Think dyno run for 4 hours down, 4 hours back until we hit the road, then 12 hours on pavement.
It was a little more than the 360 could handle, and while it made it home, it didn't run right after that. I was about 23 at the time (40 now), and bought a 4x4 ramcharger to drive, and of course my duster I had since I was 18 (paid 1376.12 for it). Fast forward a few years.
I had broken my duster for what seemed like the 100th time, and I was sitting around my garage drinking beer with my buds. You know, garage full of xtra engines, transmissions and the like, benchracing about how heavy my buds 69 road runner was (duster is all glass).
In a sheer moment of benchracing, I bet my buddy I could get anything into the 12's, even that old van I had out back.
We all looked at each other, and without a word, grabbed a tape measure and measured the engine compartment.
It looked like it fit! Wow, cool. So I did some investigating, and found that the winibego motorhomes used the dodge from chassis, and came with a 440.
So, down to the dealer, and one oil pan / windage tray / motor mount / isolator later, the engine was ready for install.
I didn't build it too radical, some hogged out heads with big valves, 484 lift hyd cam, Harland sharps, hooker headers, bunch of intake combos (the performer 850 DP worked best), on a 9.5:1 compression made it fly.
4800 lbs is what it weighed in at, and I'm another 200. Never got it into 3rd with the 2.76 peg leg, and the 1800 stall further kept it from spinning the tires.
I drive it occasionally, but I'm getting too old for a non ac car when I have to pick up the kids in the heat, and the wipers don't work anymore....An occasional nice spring day is all it gets...too bad too. It is starting to have bad cancer, probably won't be around too much longer.
That was still the best tow vehicle ever. I remember one time, going to palmdale, towing a racecar on the trailer, racing a mustang up the 14. We were doing in excess of 120mph with all of our gear. Damn I was young and stupid, but was it fun. Those days are gone forever (I'm much smarter now)

[Sleeper CP]

Great story.
It ran 12's without Nos with a 2.73 rear end?
Sleeper CP

[pw_Tony]

[QUOTE=pw383426;2788414]Used to run a 1972 Duster up there all the time. Now I live in Bullhead, but my father still races the car at Barona. Have some pics from last weekend of it if interested....[/QUOT
Sure!
http://i11.tinypic.com/4xyp11w.jpg

[ck7684]

12's???? hmmmm neat story tho. Anybody remember the Cannonball Run?? The ambulance in that movie is the actual one that was run in the last race, and it was equipped!! It had a built 440 and all sorts of goodies. If you watch the movie, the scene where they pull into the gas station, you can hear that badazz engine :) I highly recommend the book "The Cannonball Run". There's more truth in that movie then you think!!

[Dominator Scott]

Well it looks like I now have a 850 marine edelbrock carb for sale. New in the box as the saying goes. I'm bolting the TR up tonight, thanks for the input. Sounds like I have a new boat anchor with the manifold. Paid a hundred for it then bead blasted it so no big loss. :idea:
Your making the right choice. I was running a 800 Holley with a Torker460 intake and switched to a Weiand tunnel ram with dual Holley 600 vacuum secondary carbs this last spring. It took me all Memorial weekend to get the tuning and jetting right but I picked up about 400RPM's on the top end and a few mph to boot. The acceleration is 10 times better with the TR and I don't have to tell you about the cool factor.:D

[speedymopars]

12's???? hmmmm neat story tho. Anybody remember the Cannonball Run?? The ambulance in that movie is the actual one that was run in the last race, and it was equipped!! It had a built 440 and all sorts of goodies. If you watch the movie, the scene where they pull into the gas station, you can hear that badazz engine :) I highly recommend the book "The Cannonball Run". There's more truth in that movie then you think!!
Ahh another one calling BullSh*t on me....That's ok, I would have too
No prob, I have pics, videos, timeslips, and witnesses! I'm at work now, so I only have a few things I can post - more later. Here is an animated gif of the first time I did a burnout with it.
--- Damn the file's too big :-(
Here is a snipped version - but it doesn't do it justice.

[ck7684]

That's awesome!! That almost looks like my old dodge van!! It was a short '78 100 but it just had a 318 4bbl dual exhaust and glasspacks. Bright yellow with the same style rear/side windows, chin spoiler and mag wheels.
Not exactly calling BS, but the gearing seems quite tall... My buddy built an '80 Trans Am with a 350 SBC, monster cam, high stall converter etc. but didnt feel the need to swap out the econo 2.41 rear end gears. Damn thing didnt accelrate worth a sh** until you were going about 80, but it sounded pretty mean :) He drove it from MN to Florida but burned up the converter, lol
Anyways I'd love to see any other pics or vids of that van...brings back some memories :D

[speedymopars]

Timeslips...