Unions...Good or Bad experiences?

[Lookin for Liquid]

Looks like GM walked off the job nationwide....I have my own personal feelings having been on both sides but what do others think?

[djunkie]

Get it while its hot people. :jawdrop: :D :D :D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39827&stc=1&d=1190672911
Oh ya, Unions suck!!!:devil: :devil:

[Jyruiz]

Some good, some bad.

[BALLSDEEP]

In my opinion, I think they are a waste of time and money. I worked for UPS for over 6 years and other than the medical benefits they didn’t do much for me. I am not the type of person to bitch about not getting enough break time or being over worked or going to the extent of filing a grievance against someone else. When we went on strike back in 1997 it was hard to survive on the $50 dollars a week the union provided each week to stand outside and picket after realizing how much each employee pays into there monthly union dues. Just my 2 cents.

[djunkie]

In my opinion, I think they are a waste of time and money. I worked for UPS for over 6 years and other than the medical benefits they didn’t do much for me. I am not the type of person to bitch about not getting enough break time or being over worked or going to the extent of filing a grievance against someone else. When we went on strike back in 1997 it was hard to survive on the $50 dollars a week the union provided each week to stand outside and picket after realizing how much each employee pays into there monthly union dues. Just my 2 cents.
Just curious, but if UPS didn't have the union do you think the employees would still have the benefits and wages that they currently do?

[THOR]

We really dont want to go down this road again do we?
Give it a rest scabs. :devil:

[Wicky]

**** the unions!! I'm glad I live in a right to work state. My right to hire..my right to fire!!

[BALLSDEEP]

Just curious, but if UPS didn't have the union do you think the employees would still have the benefits and wages that they currently do?
Good question, not sure. I would think so it’s a huge company and getting even bigger. With all the new technology and ability to shop online it’s a rapidly growing company. Just my SCAB opinion.

[djunkie]

Good question, not sure. I would think so it’s a huge company and getting even bigger. With all the new technology and ability to shop online it’s a rapidly growing company. Just my SCAB opinion.
:messedup: :messedup: :D

[hkunz]

1) When I was about 8 - 10 my dad worked at a vending machine company in SF, six days a week, filling the vending machines at various offices. I'd go with him on Saturday cause I liked to play with the gears and pulleys and shafts that make the things work (some things never change). There was a place that was being picketed by the Teamsters, and Dad had to fill the vending machines. They pulled us out, turned the van over and burned it.
2) We had moved to the PNW, where the lumber industry was a big job provider. I wasn't old enough yet, but many of my relatives, and many of my schoolmates' dads worked for Boise-Cascade at the lumber mill. The town that the mill was in was rather remote, but they bussed the kids to rural schools in the area. There was no reason for the town but to support the mill. The union bosses decided, and convinced the membership, that they could get more (who knows, doesn't matter) if they struck. The mill was marginal, so B-C closed it, putting everyone out of work, and killing the town. The homes they so carefully purchased and cared for - worthless.
3) My x had a job at Gemco in the snack bar, and she'd worked there for a few years. A new gal was hired in, and although married, promptly began sleeping with the married boss. She was promoted over the x, within a month. We aren't talking skilled labor here, they cooked and served food at an in-store snack bar. My x protested, and he fired her. She asked the union for help, and they did literally nothing, not even a response or call back. the best part was when they didn't get thier dues from my x's check, they began threatening her for not paying her union dues. I got involved, and they went away, but she'll never be able to get a job with SEIU connections again.
4) A few years ago the SoCal grocery unions struck for five months. (A side note, grocery stores have the lowest ROI of any major industry, so the smallest wiggle room in profit sharing/labor costs. Like farming, you have a grocery store because you like the lifestyle, not because you plan to be rich) At the end of the strike, they got exactly the same deal they were initially offered. The three Ralph's stores in Bakersfield closed, and they all lost thier jobs (unless they moved away from their hometown).
So, I guess, based upon personal history, you could say that I am not a union supporter. I can see why folks in the unions might support them, but the thing I find amazing is that unions would support the Democratic Party - an organization completely against the union memebers' best interests - but that's another issue.

[BALLSDEEP]

3) My x had a job at Gemco in the snack bar, and she'd worked there for a few years. A new gal was hired in, and although married, promptly began sleeping with the married boss. She was promoted over the x, within a month. We aren't talking skilled labor here, they cooked and served food at an in-store snack bar. My x protested, and he fired her. She asked the union for help, and they did literally nothing, not even a response or call back. the best part was when they didn't get thier dues from my x's check, they began threatening her for not paying her union dues. I got involved, and they went away, but she'll never be able to get a job with SEIU connections again.
Sounds so familiar... They dont do much until they dont get their money then all hell breaks loose!

[Troy McClure]

I LOVE unions, every time I bid against a union shop I win the Job. Wish more of my competitors were union. :devil:

[River Lynchmob]

1) When I was about 8 - 10 my dad worked at a vending machine company in SF, six days a week, filling the vending machines at various offices. I'd go with him on Saturday cause I liked to play with the gears and pulleys and shafts that make the things work (some things never change). There was a place that was being picketed by the Teamsters, and Dad had to fill the vending machines. They pulled us out, turned the van over and burned it.
2) We had moved to the PNW, where the lumber industry was a big job provider. I wasn't old enough yet, but many of my relatives, and many of my schoolmates' dads worked for Boise-Cascade at the lumber mill. The town that the mill was in was rather remote, but they bussed the kids to rural schools in the area. There was no reason for the town but to support the mill. The union bosses decided, and convinced the membership, that they could get more (who knows, doesn't matter) if they struck. The mill was marginal, so B-C closed it, putting everyone out of work, and killing the town. The homes they so carefully purchased and cared for - worthless.
3) My x had a job at Gemco in the snack bar, and she'd worked there for a few years. A new gal was hired in, and although married, promptly began sleeping with the married boss. She was promoted over the x, within a month. We aren't talking skilled labor here, they cooked and served food at an in-store snack bar. My x protested, and he fired her. She asked the union for help, and they did literally nothing, not even a response or call back. the best part was when they didn't get thier dues from my x's check, they began threatening her for not paying her union dues. I got involved, and they went away, but she'll never be able to get a job with SEIU connections again.
4) A few years ago the SoCal grocery unions struck for five months. (A side note, grocery stores have the lowest ROI of any major industry, so the smallest wiggle room in profit sharing/labor costs. Like farming, you have a grocery store because you like the lifestyle, not because you plan to be rich) At the end of the strike, they got exactly the same deal they were initially offered. The three Ralph's stores in Bakersfield closed, and they all lost thier jobs (unless they moved away from their hometown).
So, I guess, based upon personal history, you could say that I am not a union supporter. I can see why folks in the unions might support them, but the thing I find amazing is that unions would support the Democratic Party - an organization completely against the union memebers' best interests - but that's another issue.
I'll start off saying we are a union company and I dont particularly support them nor do I hate them (except during negotiations). They take care of their membership to the point it is a pain in my ass. We had a kid that could not be on time to save his life warned over and over. He wasn't a particularly good worker either.He showed up late again and was fired. He filed a grevience with the union making all kinds of accusations that I had to deal with for literally every day for a month.
Most of the labor they provide is good and hard working but you do get the douche bags that are worthless that cause me the most headaches. I'd say a third of the time one of these guys gets fired they file a grevience and everyone is exhaustivly looked into. From that stand point I don't like them, but they do protect their own.
Negotiations...we just finished up and the package that they just negotiated was a $13 an hour raise over the next 4 years. Right now a journeyman takes home $72,000 per year with their package coming in at $100,000 so in 4 years the package will be $126,000 per year. All this to someone that only needs a GED and the ability to pass a 7th grade math test (which, I'd say at least 50% fail their first attempt) and pass one piss test. How long do you ask does this take...5 years. How can the union feel that someone that more often than not has more time spent in jail than in class. How long does it take a college graduate to make $126,000? I bet it's juts a little longer than 5years. :mad:
So you could say I am very mixed about this topic.

[River Lynchmob]

I LOVE unions, every time I bid against a union shop I win the Job. Wish more of my competitors were union. :devil:
I beat alot of non union shops believe it or not.

[Havasu1986]

Looks like GM walked off the job nationwide....I have my own personal feelings having been on both sides but what do others think?
Thank god for unions...My dad worked on the assembly line for GM for 35 years. He has a good pension and health care that I don't have to worry about. He is 84 years old BTW. I have worked for the same Union fire sprinkler company since 82'. So I have a very good income and even better retirement. My owners sign our contract every 3-4 years with no problems at all. ;)

[boatsnblondes]

I have a love hate thing with them. On one hand, my work rules are nice, on the other hand, they just turned down a contract that would have raised us to almost 40 bucks an hour....sigh...:mad:

[Flyinbowtie]

My late father was a member of the International Association of Machinists for over 28 years. During the majority of this time, (196?-November, 1977)he worked in a shop that employed 8 heavy equipment specialists. Dad was a staunch union man, a die-hard conservative democrat of the ilk that seems almost a extinct species today. He went to every union meeting, and usually came home pissed. I still have his union by-laws book and dues book out in my (his) toolbox. He served as shop steward more than once, which raised his stress level and frustration with the system to levels where we tiptoed around the house for many an evening while he was on the phone with some company hack.
His union went out on strike in support of the Longshoremen in the early seventies.
The strike, "benefits" ran out in 30 days.
The freezer was empty in 45 days.
Dad went up to Fraizer Park and poached a deer to feed his family during the strike that lasted over 3 months. It was the only seriously illegal act I know of that he committed in his life; but his family was hungry.
Never a bad word about the union.
He'd come home from some of those meetings madder than hell. I was about 12 years old, and remember like it was yesterday him telling me,
"Son, a union is only as good as the men who belong to it; they elect their leaders, and they are responsible for holding those leaders accountable for doing what is right for them, and being fair and honest with the company. The company has to make a profit to stay in business. The leaders of the union have to know what the dollars are, and make sure the men are treated fairly. If too many members don't give a damn, or are only interested in themselves, or their leaders don't keep the best interest of the members in mind, then the blame for failure lies squarely on the shoulders of the members"
In November of 1977, at 47, he had just completed a 8th consecutive 17 hour day when he came home and had a massive heart attack.
He survived, but he was forced to retire. The workload in that shop didn't change, and by 1981 there were 17 specialists working in there because too many of the men had died, had heart attacks, or flat out left. His check from the union was less than $500.00 per month. I was up north going to college at the time, things were very tough.
Dads' $500.00 per month died with him in 1983, leaving my mother with nothing after all those years of honorable service. My mother stayed in touch with the other 7 families from the shop Dad worked in.
Only one of those original 8 is still alive today, he is in his early eighties.
I've never seen anything that leads me to believe my Fathers' oft-repeated comments about the unions was wrong.

[HM]

I love onions. Especially grilled. Oh...and the onion loaf at Tony Roma's is the bomb!!!!

[vmjtc3]

Here we go again ;) John<--------IBEW 357 :)

[djunkie]

I love onions. Especially grilled. Oh...and the onion loaf at Tony Roma's is the bomb!!!!
I agree. That thing is damm good!!!!!!:D :D

[Rexone]

Negotiations...we just finished up and the package that they just negotiated was a $13 an hour raise over the next 4 years. Right now a journeyman takes home $72,000 per year with their package coming in at $100,000 so in 4 years the package will be $126,000 per year. All this to someone that only needs a GED and the ability to pass a 7th grade math test (which, I'd say at least 50% fail their first attempt) and pass one piss test. How long do you ask does this take...5 years. How can the union feel that someone that more often than not has more time spent in jail than in class. How long does it take a college graduate to make $126,000? I bet it's juts a little longer than 5years. :mad:
So you could say I am very mixed about this topic.
I rarely engage in union discussions because they end about as well as the religious ones. But I can't help but ask. You take a viable company that maybe operates on a 30% GPM. Apply the above scenario of wages increased roughly 20% for marginally skilled workers. So basically to remain in business and remain viable this company must raise it's revenue or it prices to it customers 20% also. Otherwise the company fails and everyone is out of a job. All this in light of the fact of cheap foreign competition and companies moving their factories and operations offshore to avoid just the scenario above. How is this scenario good for anyone?
A. If company fails everyone loses jobs, and the country loses one more company to foreign competition or possibly non-union competition (which may or may not be a good thing depending on your view).
B. If company remains in business prices are raised, ultimately trickling up to the end user of that product or service. This results in increased cost of living for everyone including the union workers and non-union workers.
C. Under skilled workers in many cases are given a free ride upward on the pay scale they would certainly not have in the real world of free competition and pay based upon actual work put forth and skills.
D. Then when a scenario like a couple described above occurs and that worker loses his job or is forced to retire the union says adios but still has it's hand out for dues.
E. I never hear of union management suffering along with the workers when their strikes are implemented. :idea:
As a side note, regarding the grocery strike of 03 in So Cal. I used to shop at Ralph's, Vons, and Albertsons (combination) almost exclusively. Since the strike and the way some striking employees treated and abused some customers I have returned only about 40-50% of that volume to these stores, staying with the alternative sources discovered during the strike. I'd say if I'm anything typical (not saying I am) that is not a winning scenario for store employees, stores, or unions for that matter. Just an observation.
The same may end up applying to the current GM strike scenario. GM is already struggling. I'm sure Toyota, Honda, and all the rest of the foreign competitors are going to jump on this opportunity like Lucky on a stray sheep. I can't see where the GM employees are going to win from this and thousands may lose if the strike drags out with GM closing plants or moving them offshore or subbing more shit to foreign companies. Not to mention GM as a company could fail or end up highly comprimised to remain competitive in the auto market.
Seems to me there are laws and strict guidelines now in place at state and federal levels to adequately protect employees that were not in place when labor unions originally came into being. What I see in many cases (not all of course) is excessive wages for work being performed, union managements milking the workers for money feeding them the song and dance of security and so on while actually offering very little if any beyond what the worker would get in the free market. And the argument for unions generally comes from union members who are being highly paid for jobs that in the real world would pay less (naturally this doesn't surprise me).
But when it's all said and done someone is paying the price for those highly paid jobs. I wonder why cost of living is so high especially in urban centers.... :idea: Cost of living goes up, so must wages, its a never ending circular cycle. The big spike in the spoke though is foreign competition (including US companies forced by economics to move offshore) that is not bound by union high wage requirements thus constantly gaining market share and further driving union bound otherwise viable companies to their knees.
So who really wins besides the unions themselves in the big picture? I certainly don't see any other winners except perhaps some underskilled union protected workers for the short term. I see unions much more as a company killer than a worker protector these days. I'm sure there are exceptions as there are with everything.
Flame on... ;)

[djunkie]

Here we go again ;) John<--------IBEW 357 :)
Union bastard!!!!!!:mad:
<------ ILWU Local 13. :D

[Infomaniac]

The unions that promote productivity in exchange for wages and benefits are good unions.
The unions that protect the worthless f u c k s that don't want to work and let the union fight for them are the bad unions.
Unions were formed when working conditions were horrible and empolyers actually abused the employees. Those days are gone and the union for the most part is not necessary.
Every union employee can go out and start their own business if they want to reap the benefits of owning one. They do not own the company and are not entitled to a share equal to what the owner has. That is the mind set. If the company is making money they want it. but they do not want the risk and long unpaid hours associated with it.

[westair]

I had a union job for years and loved it, or thought I did. New company truck every year, medical, vacation, every holiday paid. The company eventually went under .... nothing seemed to work out after that, very few union shops in San Diego. Started my own business fifteen years ago and make 3 times the money I did, but not without a few headaches along the way. Never would have ventured out if I didn't lose my cushy union job.

[Old Texan]

Whatever the opinion on Unions, the current strike against GM if over a month could bring the company down in the US. The times are tough in the auto industry and he UAW hasn't allowed the American Big 3 to be able to compete fairly in the domestic market.
The crux of the situation at present is GM wants to move the retiree health care burder over to the union for management. GM will fund it and the UAW will be responsible for managing the trust. The kicker is the rank and file won't agree unless they are guaranteed jobs and wages. Tough to make the guarantee in today's market.
I believe this strike to be a very poor decision and one that could end a lot of jobs and close a lot of shops. And since each vehicle produced needs to generate over $1,800.00 off the top to pay benefits and retirements, guess what comes next. From the picket line to begging the government to bail out the retirement plan.

[vmjtc3]

[QUOTE=djunkie;2806052]Union bastard!!!!!!:mad:
Hey we all gotta be something. I just prefer not to show up to work for chump change :D :D

[Throttle]

live better

[vmjtc3]

Focking unions, bringing things like weekends and heath ins to the average man. How dare they !!!:eek:

[vmjtc3]

Double post.

[GHT]

Looks like GM walked off the job nationwide....I have my own personal feelings having been on both sides but what do others think?
This thread SCREAMS Winter Drama!!! Everyone will be at each others throats by the middle of October...;)
My experience: Unions SUCK the only people that "make out" are the eight hour a day stewards and Union bosses... EVERYONE else is just a bitch to them and the company owners end up busting their asses trying to keep the tit full of Milk for the lazy, two faced, back stabbing, reach around giving, non-working stewards that have f'ing guts the size of a small planet because they never miss a free ass kissing session LUNCH.
Other than that I think Unions may have a place in the pits of Hell, but then again that would still be too much work for them.
:D

[HM]

https://www.universalairsuspension.com/images/12hunion.jpg
:D

[Jbb]

Im JBB....Im Pro Union.....Im Fat, Im Slow,Im Lazy, Im Stupid......But I got seniority.......deal with it....:p

[HM]

Here is a union that we can all like!!! (Gabrielle Union)
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39842&stc=1&d=1190683524

[vmjtc3]

This thread SCREAMS Winter Drama!!! Everyone will be at each others throats by the middle of October...;)
My experience: Unions SUCK the only people that "make out" are the eight hour a day stewards and Union bosses... EVERYONE else is just a bitch to them and the company owners end up busting their asses trying to keep the tit full of Milk for the lazy, two faced, back stabbing, reach around giving, non-working stewards that have f'ing guts the size of a small planet because they never miss a free ass kissing session LUNCH.
Other than that I think Unions may have a place in the pits of Hell, but then again that would still be too much work for them.
:D
Yeah never mind the fact that the unions also protect us from having to work in unsafe conditions. And when you play with 12470 volts, I will take all the back up I can get. But I suppose you don't think my kids deserve to have a dad.:( Unions make sure the contractor cant fire me for taking the time to do a job safe and correct.

[HM]

Yeah never mind the fact that the unions also protect us from having to work in unsafe conditions. And when you play with 12470 volts, I will take all the back up I can get. But I suppose you don't think my kids deserve to have a dad.:( Unions make sure the contractor cant fire me for taking the time to do a job safe and correct.
So I guess OSHA has no place? Nor the Labor board? Sweet...let's get rid of those useless agencies! :D :D

[27 Awesome cat]

Here is a union that we can all like!!! (Gabrielle Union)
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39842&stc=1&d=1190683524
I'm not into black chicks,, but I might make an exception:D
<---------Local 399 here.

[Infomaniac]

Yeah never mind the fact that the unions also protect us from having to work in unsafe conditions. And when you play with 12470 volts, I will take all the back up I can get. But I suppose you don't think my kids deserve to have a dad.:( Unions make sure the contractor cant fire me for taking the time to do a job safe and correct.
LOL the old drag your feet and blame it on safe and correct trick.
Give us a break man.

[GHT]

Yeah never mind the fact that the unions also protect us from having to work in unsafe conditions. And when you play with 12470 volts, I will take all the back up I can get. But I suppose you don't think my kids deserve to have a dad.:( Unions make sure the contractor cant fire me for taking the time to do a job safe and correct.
I do care... I would hire you and use your experience to make our company better. AND if you're as good an employee as you seem to be then I would have to pay you very good, give you good benifits, and other perks that come with keeping a good employee. You see I would have to pay you TOP $$ to use your skills not just "Scale" or what the lazy POS next to you makes.. I would pay you what you deserve.:D :D And yes... Every kid deserves a healthy, hard working, loving dad.:D :idea:

[Jbb]

LOL the old drag your feet and blame it on safe and correct trick.
Give us a break man.
...Hater...:mad:

[GHT]

Yeah never mind the fact that the unions also protect us from having to work in unsafe conditions. And when you play with 12470 volts, I will take all the back up I can get. But I suppose you don't think my kids deserve to have a dad.:( Unions make sure the contractor cant fire me for taking the time to do a job safe and correct.
Oh, I would recommend you don't "PLAY" with 12470 volts. It isn't a toy! That isn't very safety oriented.:hammer2: :hammer2: :D (J/K)

[Rexone]

https://www.universalairsuspension.com/images/12hunion.jpg
:D
A couple more unions I like...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/732900104.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/nipple.jpg

[vmjtc3]

I do care... I would hire you and use your experience to make our company better. AND if you're as good an employee as you seem to be then I would have to pay you very good, give you good benifits, and other perks that come with keeping a good employee. You see I would have to pay you TOP $$ to use your skills not just "Scale" or what the lazy POS next to you makes.. I would pay you what you deserve.:D :D And yes... Every kid deserves a healthy, hard working, loving dad.:D :idea:
Well it sounds as if you would make a great boss. When do I start!!:D

[westair]

Yeah never mind the fact that the unions also protect us from having to work in unsafe conditions. And when you play with 12470 volts, I will take all the back up I can get. But I suppose you don't think my kids deserve to have a dad.:( Unions make sure the contractor cant fire me for taking the time to do a job safe and correct.
Backup meaning 4 guys standing around while 1 is actually working. Still can't figure how union shops make money.:confused:

[Jbb]

A couple more unions I like...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/nipple.jpg
:p

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Whatever the opinion on Unions, the current strike against GM if over a month could bring the company down in the US. The times are tough in the auto industry and he UAW hasn't allowed the American Big 3 to be able to compete fairly in the domestic market.
The crux of the situation at present is GM wants to move the retiree health care burder over to the union for management. GM will fund it and the UAW will be responsible for managing the trust. The kicker is the rank and file won't agree unless they are guaranteed jobs and wages. Tough to make the guarantee in today's market.
I believe this strike to be a very poor decision and one that could end a lot of jobs and close a lot of shops. And since each vehicle produced needs to generate over $1,800.00 off the top to pay benefits and retirements, guess what comes next. From the picket line to begging the government to bail out the retirement plan.
Very well put Tex

[vmjtc3]

LOL the old drag your feet and blame it on safe and correct trick.
Give us a break man.
I have never nor will I ever drag my feet. Bottom line, if the contractor cant make money, then I cant make money. Yeah, I am such a pos that I am the V.P. in charge of the commercial side of the company. Must be a real union pos :rolleyes:

[Rexone]

Im JBB....Im Pro Union.....Im Fat, Im Slow,Im Lazy, Im Stupid......But I got seniority.......deal with it....:p
Good thing ***boat isn't a union house like that new place. The moderators here actually work for our tee shirts.

[Jbb]

Good thing ***boat isn't a union house like that new place. The moderators here actually work for our tee shirts.
...work?.....:p

[GHT]

I have never nor will I ever drag my feet. Bottom line, if the contractor cant make money, then I cant make money. Yeah, I am such a pos that I am the V.P. in charge of the commercial side of the company. Must be a real union pos :rolleyes:
What company do you work for? Commercial side? I GC Commercial / Retail / Office, etc..

[Rexone]

Nothing like a good union thread to get autumn off to a flying start. :cool:

[Infomaniac]

I have never nor will I ever drag my feet. Bottom line, if the contractor cant make money, then I cant make money. Yeah, I am such a pos that I am the V.P. in charge of the commercial side of the company. Must be a real union pos :rolleyes:
It's not personal man.
But your statement bashing management is no different than mine.
Just a different perspective.
Not all unions are bad. Just hardly any of them are any good.
Get paid by the job instead of by the hour with a union safety blanket and I bet you could figure out how to be just as safe and get a lot more done.

[vmjtc3]

So I guess OSHA has no place? Nor the Labor board? Sweet...let's get rid of those useless agencies! :D :D
Labor board has nothing to do with saftey. Osha, great ideal but like all bureaucracy, they fail at enforcing on a daily basis the rules they put in to effect. They do spot compliance inspections. But they are not there day in and day out.

[Parker Dreamin]

The unions that promote productivity in exchange for wages and benefits are good unions.
The unions that protect the worthless f u c k s that don't want to work and let the union fight for them are the bad unions.
Unions were formed when working conditions were horrible and empolyers actually abused the employees. Those days are gone and the union for the most part is not necessary.
Every union employee can go out and start their own business if they want to reap the benefits of owning one. They do not own the company and are not entitled to a share equal to what the owner has. That is the mind set. If the company is making money they want it. but they do not want the risk and long unpaid hours associated with it.
There is no way a union BA or a union member would think like that... come on.

[vmjtc3]

It's not personal man.
But your statement bashing management is no different than mine.
Just a different perspective.
Not all unions are bad. Just hardly any of them are any good.
Get paid by the job instead of by the hour with a union safety blanket and I bet you could figure out how to be just as safe and get a lot more done.
I could not get more done. I already work as fast as safely possible. I would take a cut in pay before I put my life on the line for a few dollars. And with statements insinuating I would work faster under a different arrangement, thats about as personal as it gets. A direct insult to my integrity !

[Infomaniac]

I could not get more done. I already work as fast as safely possible. I would take a cut in pay before I put my life on the line for a few dollars. And with statements insinuating I would work faster under a different arrangement, thats about as personal as it gets. A direct insult to my integrity !
Well that was not my intent.
"you" was not intended as you personally, it was ment to be in general.

[vmjtc3]

What company do you work for? Commercial side? I GC Commercial / Retail / Office, etc..
Commercial construction, verses industrial or residential. So yes the commercial side of the company. :D
And playing with 12470 is an expression as I am sure you are aware:D

[vmjtc3]

Well that was not my intent.
"you" was not intended as you personally, it was ment to be in general.
Very well then. I believe in a lot of cases you may well be correct . Well we cant fire people as easily as the non union sector, we use layoffs to cull out the non productive workers as there is no recourse. And most workers are painfully aware they can be laid off at any time. At least in the ibew there is no seniority stipulations.

[epeagle]

i support unions, most unions never hire illegal immigrants.
like cesar chavez was a big union supporter..
thats what gets me at these mexican flag waving rallies..chanting lines from chavez..
he did not like illegals because they break unions.
i think its sad that both parents need to work to put food on the table.
my union has provided me with the financial security to have my wife stay home and raise our 5 kids, own 3 houses, a boat and other toys.
one of the last blue collar jobs in america that can do that.

[Froggystyle]

i support unions, most unions never hire illegal immigrants.
Neither do ethical non-union shops...

[Unforgiven]

I have to speak out on this...LOCAL 428 IBEW..5 years..yes, I went through apprenticeship.. local 1245 IBEW 3 years..(yes a second one) if you couldn't make the grade you were out..yes I graduated high school even though my spelling doesn't reflect it.,,I became a UNION ELECTRICIAN and also a COMMUNICATIONS TECHNICIAN because of the unions... (also went to college.) My parents owned their own Business...but still I went my direction in life..Bad or good, The union has been my life..it's something I live by....there will always be two opinions in life..you have yours and I have mine..Yes I have lived BOTH sides...for some of you it works but for some it doesn't..but this is AMERICA...we have the RIGHT to choose how we live!

[djunkie]

Yup, unions still suck. LOL!!!!!! :D :D

[Unforgiven]

Yup, unions still suck. LOL!!!!!! :D :D
so do you...but we never told anyone...

[breezeblocker]

wife works union, i dont. saves us a ton of money on healthcare . great pension. and plenty of vacation time. cost of living pay increases. allows us to live the life we do. LOCAL 9505 CWA

[djunkie]

so do you...but we never told anyone...
Read post #22. :D :D

[Unforgiven]

Read post #22. :D :D
BITE ME..:D :D

[djunkie]

BITE ME..:D :D
LOL!!!!! I used to get all bent and fight to the death over these union threads but I learned its a waste of time around here. After all, the only people who hate unions are the ones that wish they could be in one. :jawdrop: :D :D :D

[Unforgiven]

LOL!!!!! I used to get all bent and fight to the death over these union threads but I learned its a waste of time around here. After all, the only people who hate unions are the ones that wish they could be in one. :jawdrop: :D :D :D
I guess we have something to drink about....we Love boats and BIG boobies

[djunkie]

I guess we have something to drink about....we Love boats and BIG boobies
http://theinsideline.org/forums/images/smilies/borrasso.gif :D :D

[beerjet]

local 944 ubc

[hoolign]

I think unions are great for the "men" who can run a mop for 50 bucks an hour! I'm not saying the world doesn't need mop runners or whatever the techical term for mopster is..but I'm sure it is some form of exagerated title :rolleyes: The whole moving up the pay scale from water grabber, to soap adder, to mixture stirrer, to mop insertion tech to wringer specialist progressing now to application determination forman who has the techical back ground to determine where to mop now in opposition to the critical job of pre planing the mopping areas by the mop logistics coordinator. It all comes together in a massive effort by the Mop Union representative. Mop on mop brothers...mop on!

[vmjtc3]

I think unions are great for the "men" who can run a mop for 50 bucks an hour! I'm not saying the world doesn't need mop runners or whatever the techical term for mopster is..but I'm sure it is some form of exagerated title :rolleyes: The whole moving up the pay scale from water grabber, to soap adder, to mixture stirrer, to mop insertion tech to wringer specialist progressing now to application determination forman who has the techical back ground to determine where to mop now in opposition to the critical job of pre planing the mopping areas by the mop logistics coordinator. It all comes together in a massive effort by the Mop Union representative. Mop on mop brothers...mop on!
LMFAO!! too focking funny:D

[asch]

Sorry folks, unions equal greed IMO. Not always the workers, but the union heads and sometimes in combination with the workers. The very thing unions claim to be against, they are--greedy. There are some exceptions though.
I wasn't always against union labor but, after hearing my union friends, that worked for enirely different companies, bitch and complain they were'nt getting what they wanted over and over I began to see a pattern in their mentality.
At the time I was working 12 days in a row, 6 of which I was on 24hr call, paid on commission basis. If I wasn't working ie wasn't on a job sitting around at home waiting for a call to come in, I didn't get paid even though I was on call. That usually shut them up. That or it got em railing about how I was getting jipped and should go union or go to the labor board. I wasn't the upset with my job though, they were. Just goes to shows the difference in peoples thinking I guess.
I wasn't mad about their union jobs, just that they never seemed to be happy unless their union boss was putting the screws to the conpany ie, unreasonable demands, more pay and/or benefits for doing the same amount of work.
Fundementally, I just don't see how or why a group of employees can or should be able to dictate terms by force to an employer. As far as I'm concerned, if you think you've been cheated, leave. There's plenty of competing companies out there. If not, there's always the option of entrepreneurship. We don't live in slave labor days like it was during the first part of the 20th century when unions were REALLY needed.

[MADDOG355]

Backup meaning 4 guys standing around while 1 is actually working. Still can't figure how union shops make money.:confused:
If memory serves correctly, Anything 480 and above takes a special licence and training most companeys don't bother keeping someone on the payroll to handle the rare times they need that specialty. I think last I heard it was about $300.00 per hr with a 1hr min for the contractor to come out. It was 1 guy working and 1 guy watching.
As for the unions, I really have never been involved with one at all. I am of the thought that they are good to a extent. But they also have there problems.

[dc96819]

I like unions when they get a good contract we salary people get somethin more.When they had to pay more for medical eventually we did also:mad:

[hoolign]

So what is the comparison between union and non ..wage wise for the grunts? :idea:

[dc96819]

The hourly labor grade top out at a certain amount, salary no limit

[QuickJet]

Who pays for all these union benefits?
Oh that's right, the consumer.
I hope these a-holes striking at GM starve, Maybe GM will fold and then all there dumb asses will be out on the street.
Unions protect the un desireables.
When I first got into construction 18 years ago I had the opportunity to join a union and passed.
Unions don't make your job safer, common sense does. If you work for a boss that would put your life on the line then you are working for the wrong company.
I own my own company now and flat out refuse to hire ANY carpenter that is pro union.
You don't need a union for job security, that's where skill and ethics come into paly. Work hard, live better, screw the unions!

[hoolign]

Who pays for all these union benefits?
Oh that's right, the consumer.
I hope these a-holes striking at GM starve, Maybe GM will fold and then all there dumb asses will be out on the street.
Unions protect the un desireables.
When I first got into construction 18 years ago I had the opportunity to join a union and passed.
Unions don't make your job safer, common sense does. If you work for a boss that would put your life on the line then you are working for the wrong company.
I own my own company now and flat out refuse to hire ANY carpenter that is pro union.
You don't need a union for job security, that's where skill and ethics come into play. Work hard, live better, screw the unions!
I don't see how this could work?? Your saying...have a skill?? then work hard? ? You may be onto something here:idea: :idea: This could / might just work! :D

[QuickJet]

I don't see how this could work?? Your saying...have a skill?? then work hard? ? You may be onto something here:idea: :idea: This could / might just work! :D
It's a long shot....but i think with time.....who knows???? :D ;)

[hoolign]

The hourly labor grade top out at a certain amount, salary no limit
That sounds like a union answer:idea: What I should have asked was " If Union Mop runner makes 50.00 an hour for being a journeyman Mop runner What would be the rate that averge Joe Non union Mop runner would be paid?? My goal here is to find out if union guys are paid more..or if they pay scale is the same??

[DCarr]

The crux of the situation at present is GM wants to move the retiree health care burder over to the union for management. GM will fund it and the UAW will be responsible for managing the trust. The kicker is the rank and file won't agree unless they are guaranteed jobs and wages. Tough to make the guarantee in today's market.
Where did you hear the part about wages ?
The real kicker is that GM only wants to trasnfer of 70 % of the funds in the retiree's insurance account to whoever takes it over.

[Shreve"T"]

UNIONS "SUCK".........:D :D :D :D
What alot of people dont know is that if you are a supplier to any of the big 3 you are required to give back each and every year you have on your contract.
What I mean by this is that if you make part "A" for the whole contract you are asked to give back a percentage every year. So while this is going on you have the UAW wanting more and more no matter what it is that they are asking for.
Heres an example. We did door panels for GM. Cost to them was $18.00 a pc. By the end of the contract with GM that same door would cost GM $13.00.In the mean time you have health care cost going up and the wages going up as well.I dont know about you but it would'nt take long before American companies would have to start looking else where to do buisness....This is a FACT!!!!! I watched 1 company go belly up over the UAW. Had 300 employees and just for signing a Union card they recieved $1000.00 as part of there contract thats $300.000 for WHAT??? :D :D :D :D I could go on and on about this but it boiles me when you here folks say that the Unions are good...... BS

[westair]

LOL!!!!! I used to get all bent and fight to the death over these union threads but I learned its a waste of time around here. After all, the only people who hate unions are the ones that wish they could be in one. :jawdrop: :D :D :D
Wrong! I think management and business owners hate unions the most. Besides, what is so hard about getting into a union, here in San Diego they are always trying to recruit people, there last effort before they all disappear.

[Wicky]

Yeah never mind the fact that the unions also protect us from having to work in unsafe conditions. And when you play with 12470 volts, I will take all the back up I can get. But I suppose you don't think my kids deserve to have a dad.:( Unions make sure the contractor cant fire me for taking the time to do a job safe and correct.
Doesn't sound like you need a union. Just a better life insurance plan.

[deltarat]

<----IBEW Local 302

[THOR]

So who really wins besides the unions themselves in the big picture? I certainly don't see any other winners except perhaps some underskilled union protected workers for the short term. I see unions much more as a company killer than a worker protector these days. I'm sure there are exceptions as there are with everything.
Flame on... ;)
Good point to a point. :confused:
On small jobs, unions might not be necessary, but when you ask about big commercial jobs, non union shops cant man them and cant pass the safety and inspection portions in the least. Take parking structures, hospitals, high rises, etc, union because the OSHA regs are so tight the unions need constant safety checks in place. First, the work quality on the aforementioned jobs is much higher and the end user benefits. Second, the owner of the property benefits as well because these jobs generally finish on time and with a very low rate of safety incidents.

[Old Texan]

Good point to a point. :confused:
On small jobs, unions might not be necessary, but when you ask about big commercial jobs, non union shops cant man them and cant pass the safety and inspection portions in the least. Take parking structures, hospitals, high rises, etc, union because the OSHA regs are so tight the unions need constant safety checks in place. First, the work quality on the aforementioned jobs is much higher and the end user benefits. Second, the owner of the property benefits as well because these jobs generally finish on time and with a very low rate of safety incidents.
Big difference between construction jobs and automotive assembly.
Construction is pretty much done on a bid basis with a set price and a firm idea of the cost of the project. If you get the bid with union labor costs you're good to go.
The auto plant is ongoing and subject to the ability to sell units after they are built. Fluctuations in materials, interest rates, and the economy in general dictate where the selling price needs to be and the potential number of units that can be sold. If labor and retirement costs add too much burden, the potential for number of units sold changes drastically. Many people buy on price if they feel the quality is there and the non union domestic builders have the quality.
As I mentioned earlier, the current GM strike could choke out the golden goose.

[Chubby4Life]

Good point to a point. :confused:
On small jobs, unions might not be necessary, but when you ask about big commercial jobs, non union shops cant man them and cant pass the safety and inspection portions in the least. Take parking structures, hospitals, high rises, etc, union because the OSHA regs are so tight the unions need constant safety checks in place. First, the work quality on the aforementioned jobs is much higher and the end user benefits. Second, the owner of the property benefits as well because these jobs generally finish on time and with a very low rate of safety incidents.
Safety and safe practices fall directly on each company. If you have a great safety awarness program and actually implement and follow up with it, your field workers tend not to get hurt, union or not.

[THOR]

Safety and safe practices fall directly on each company. If you have a great safety awarness program and actually implement and follow up with it, your field workers tend not to get hurt, union or not.
You are absolutely right. I have never seen regular morning safety meeting on non union jobs. That is just me though.

[djunkie]

Wrong! I think management and business owners hate unions the most. Besides, what is so hard about getting into a union, here in San Diego they are always trying to recruit people, there last effort before they all disappear.
It was a joke. And by the way...... Hater!!!!!!!! :crossx: :crossx: Good luck getting a job in my union.

[OutCole'd]

It was a joke. And by the way...... Hater!!!!!!!! :crossx: :crossx: Good luck getting a job in my union.
Scab boy.....

[Not So Fast]

Some good, some bad.
Yep, agreed! Local 12 I.U.O.E, 25 years, retired and glad I was in the union, at least I have a retirement plan:D NSF

[ThongMagnet]

For all you assholes who think unions are bad, Lets just name a few unions
Police Union
Teachers union,
Unions are great, it is too bad more people didn't belong to unions.

[djunkie]

Safety and safe practices fall directly on each company. If you have a great safety awarness program and actually implement and follow up with it, your field workers tend not to get hurt, union or not.
Just curious, but if you are at work and something looks to be unsafe but your employer tells you to keep working or your fired, what do you do?????:idea:

[Froggystyle]

Just curious, but if you are at work and something looks to be unsafe but your employer tells you to keep working or your fired, what do you do?????:idea:
Fix the problem and go back to work.
Employers don't fire you for not doing unsafe stuff. They usually give you a management position for recognizing the danger and reacting appropriately.
Hot tip guys... most management and employers are BEGGING for a few good key employees. Someone shows the capability to stop work because of an unsafe condition, that guy just got a raise at my shop.

[djunkie]

Fix the problem and go back to work.
Employers don't fire you for not doing unsafe stuff. They usually give you a management position for recognizing the danger and reacting appropriately.
Hot tip guys... most management and employers are BEGGING for a few good key employees. Someone shows the capability to stop work because of an unsafe condition, that guy just got a raise at my shop.
Not all employers think like you Froggy. Come down and work on the docks with us and you'll see why the union is needed.

[OutCole'd]

Just curious, but if you are at work and something looks to be unsafe but your employer tells you to keep working or your fired, what do you do?????:idea:
Fix the problem and go back to work.
Employers don't fire you for not doing unsafe stuff. They usually give you a management position for recognizing the danger and reacting appropriately.
Hot tip guys... most management and employers are BEGGING for a few good key employees. Someone shows the capability to stop work because of an unsafe condition, that guy just got a raise at my shop.
Froggy, so true!! If one of my employee's see a problem and fix it, great!! If they see a problem and bring it to my attention (hopefully with a solution or suggestion) great!! I've fired a LOT of people, but never one because they brought up a safety issue to me. Anyone who can spot a problem and have a cure, is above the rest.

[djunkie]

Froggy, so true!! If one of my employee's see a problem and fix it, great!! If they see a problem and bring it to my attention (hopefully with a solution or suggestion) great!! I've fired a LOT of people, but never one because they brought up a safety issue to me. Anyone who can spot a problem and have a cure, is above the rest.
Thats great for little shops like your guys, but a bigger industry with 100's of employees on the job at the same time is different. The owners are never there. Just little men running around barking orders cause they're afraid for their job. So they are gonna do whatever it takes to get the job done to cover their ass. Whether it be unsafe for the employees or not.

[OutCole'd]

Thats great for little shops like your guys, but a bigger industry with 100's of employees on the job at the same time is different. The owners are never there. Just little men running around barking orders cause they're afraid for their job. So they are gonna do whatever it takes to get the job done to cover their ass. Whether it be unsafe for the employees or not.
Is this some kind of short joke?????:D
Good point, I've never worked in an environment like that so I obviously have no clue what you're talking about. I'm going back to the RR thread.
OC, OUT.....:D :D

[djunkie]

Is this some kind of short joke?????:D
Good point, I've never worked in an environment like that so I obviously have no clue what you're talking about. I'm going back to the RR thread.
OC, OUT.....:D :D
As for a lot of the other people in this thread. Trust me, in some industries, unions ARE needed. :D :D

[Froggystyle]

Not all employers think like you Froggy. Come down and work on the docks with us and you'll see why the union is needed.
You see, here is where I differ...
You don't have to work on the docks, and if people didn't want to work there because it is unsafe, people won't.
Underwater welding is a perfect example for me. When I was in the Navy I qualified to do it, and knew that when I got out there would be a $350/hr job waiting for me doing underwater welding. And then for the other four hours of my shift, I would make $125/hr tending the other divers. That's how it works.
As it would happen though, I will happily give you $350/hr not to do that job. It is dangerous, unsafe and uncomfortable. I won't do it for $1900/day.
How about contracting? Right now I have freinds who were teammates that got out and are working for some of the more elite contractors in Afghanistan and Iraq. For a while, they were making $2400 and up per day doing what we did in the Navy for $300/day. Another job you won't find me doing.
If the docks are dangerous, and you need a union to protect you... go do another job. Eventually, there will be a homeostasis reached when they can't find qualified personnel to do the job and they need to clean it up, or... it will be clear that the job can be done for half the cost without union labor by people who are just happy to have the job, and they don't care if they are walking under containers being lifted.
Insurance is the overwhelming moderating factor here. You NEED insurance to be a business, and dropping crates is bad for business. Killing employees is even worse. Getting your insurance canceled is the end of your profit. I have found in my experience that even with all moral obligations to the employees aside, most business owners would rather have everyone go home in one piece every day because it is the most profitable situation.
Basic economics to me. But as you mentioned... not all employers think like me.

[djunkie]

You see, here is where I differ...
You don't have to work on the docks, and if people didn't want to work there because it is unsafe, people won't.
Underwater welding is a perfect example for me. When I was in the Navy I qualified to do it, and knew that when I got out there would be a $350/hr job waiting for me doing underwater welding. And then for the other four hours of my shift, I would make $125/hr tending the other divers. That's how it works.
As it would happen though, I will happily give you $350/hr not to do that job. It is dangerous, unsafe and uncomfortable. I won't do it for $1900/day.
How about contracting? Right now I have freinds who were teammates that got out and are working for some of the more elite contractors in Afghanistan and Iraq. For a while, they were making $2400 and up per day doing what we did in the Navy for $300/day. Another job you won't find me doing.
If the docks are dangerous, and you need a union to protect you... go do another job. Eventually, there will be a homeostasis reached when they can't find qualified personnel to do the job and they need to clean it up, or... it will be clear that the job can be done for half the cost without union labor by people who are just happy to have the job, and they don't care if they are walking under containers being lifted.
Insurance is the overwhelming moderating factor here. You NEED insurance to be a business, and dropping crates is bad for business. Killing employees is even worse. Getting your insurance canceled is the end of your profit. I have found in my experience that even with all moral obligations to the employees aside, most business owners would rather have everyone go home in one piece every day because it is the most profitable situation.
Basic economics to me. But as you mentioned... not all employers think like me.
No I don't have to work there. I chose to. I put a lot of time into getting hired full time there. By trade I'm a Heavy equipment mechanic. I ran a truck shop for a trucking company for 5 years before this and didn't make half what I make now. I was always told to go for the money, so I did. And its been the best decision yet. You really are far off Wes. Its not just about walking under containers. I could spend all day trying to explain all the aspects of my job but frankly I really wouldn't want to bore you. But the fact is my job has been here for years. Before the union was there workers had NO rights. If something was unsafe or unfair and they refused to work they were fired. Now the union and companies have agreed on sets of rules to make the job work more smoothly. And its works. Not always perfect but better then it was.

[Essex29]

I think that unions are needed in large commercial projects that are being supervised by multiple entities for safety concerns.
On the other hand, I used to work for a company that forced us to join the union, I think it was Ibew. Man, what a joke having a unionized sales force, if you had the tenure you could basically pick the territory you wanted and the old timers would pick the furthest territories out and make more on the money they got reimbursed for the commute and per diem than they made in commissions.
And I do believe the GM people are making way too much money...just my opinion.:D

[djunkie]

One more thing Wes. Don't hold your breath on the job getting done better by people who make less money. There are a lot of people in our union. To most its there life and they take a lot of pride in their job. For instance the equipment operators. We have some of the best crane operators in the world here in the port of LA/LB. We average more moves per crane per hour than almost any other country out there. I drive heavy equipment. And when I am on the job I bust my ass and work hard to protect my job.

[Froggystyle]

Thats great for little shops like your guys, but a bigger industry with 100's of employees on the job at the same time is different. The owners are never there. Just little men running around barking orders cause they're afraid for their job. So they are gonna do whatever it takes to get the job done to cover their ass. Whether it be unsafe for the employees or not.
When I worked at SEMA Norfolk as a welder, it was essentially a Navy-run shipyard. We were at all of the civilian shipyards essentially for a living building stuff over at Metro Machine, Newport News and other huge ones in Norfolk, Portsmouth and Hampton Roads. I saw first-hand what the difference was between a union job being done and a Navy job being done. The difference was pay and motivation.
The Navy had no union, obviously, but every single ounce of the safety precautions in place. Unions actually had to raise safety to our standards in almost every case. Unions flat out wouldn't do some of the jobs we did, regardless of safety. Namely, diving in cofferdams, exterior welding in manufactured spaces and lots of ship's husbandry stuff. The resources it took to get the job done at all by union labor took it out of the scope of reasonable, and so we would go safely do it instead.
There is a big difference between doing a job safely and putting so much infrastructure towards it that it is impossible to **** up.
Personal accountability is a hallmark of great labor everywhere. From what I saw as a shipyard worker, it was the one thing devoid in the soul of every shipyard welder I met out there.
I had lots of people take breaks all around me during jobs where as an example the entire ship's freshwater system was secured until complete. Union mandated breaks of course. I saw plenty of teams pack up and start leaving at 5 with no replacement on the way in on similarly hot jobs... because it wasn't in the contract to work past then. I have seen many shrugs with regard to delayed jobs with a response of "fine with me... I am still getting paid" from the union guys.
The unions I met were a combination of phenomenal craftsmen with the most broken work ethic I have ever witnessed.
Just my .02 of course, but I can tell you that I have been there, worked that job, and the only "little men running around barking orders" were union representatives telling us how impossible it was for them to work until complete, or complaining that us doing the job cost them all money because we were willing to accomplish easily what they were asking the world for.
If anyone wants to hear the cofferdam on the USS Scott story... it is a great example of all of this...

[djunkie]

When I worked at SEMA Norfolk as a welder, it was essentially a Navy-run shipyard. We were at all of the civilian shipyards essentially for a living building stuff over at Metro Machine, Newport News and other huge ones in Norfolk, Portsmouth and Hampton Roads. I saw first-hand what the difference was between a union job being done and a Navy job being done. The difference was pay and motivation.
The Navy had no union, obviously, but every single ounce of the safety precautions in place. Unions actually had to raise safety to our standards in almost every case. Unions flat out wouldn't do some of the jobs we did, regardless of safety. Namely, diving in cofferdams, exterior welding in manufactured spaces and lots of ship's husbandry stuff. The resources it took to get the job done at all by union labor took it out of the scope of reasonable, and so we would go safely do it instead.
There is a big difference between doing a job safely and putting so much infrastructure towards it that it is impossible to **** up.
Personal accountability is a hallmark of great labor everywhere. From what I saw as a shipyard worker, it was the one thing devoid in the soul of every shipyard welder I met out there.
I had lots of people take breaks all around me during jobs where as an example the entire ship's freshwater system was secured until complete. Union mandated breaks of course. I saw plenty of teams pack up and start leaving at 5 with no replacement on the way in on similarly hot jobs... because it wasn't in the contract to work past then. I have seen many shrugs with regard to delayed jobs with a response of "fine with me... I am still getting paid" from the union guys.
The unions I met were a combination of phenomenal craftsmen with the most broken work ethic I have ever witnessed.
Just my .02 of course, but I can tell you that I have been there, worked that job, and the only "little men running around barking orders" were union representatives telling us how impossible it was for them to work until complete, or complaining that us doing the job cost them all money because we were willing to accomplish easily what they were asking the world for.
If anyone wants to hear the cofferdam on the USS Scott story... it is a great example of all of this...
Well being as I was not involved in that industry and didn't see first hand I really couldn't comment on their practices. I agree, sometimes they are messed up in things. I don't agree with everything my union does but to say that MY job would be better or get done better by non-union employees is ignorant IMO.

[Froggystyle]

One more thing Wes. Don't hold your breath on the job getting done better by people who make less money.
I have no suspicion it would be done better... only cheaper. I am a big fan of the theory of Quality, Speed or Price... choose two. I think that Unions, especially in your corner of it probably have a handle on the majority of the skilled crane operators in the country. Ask the air traffic controllers about having the monopoly on skilled labor though.
People CAN be trained to run a crane. I am positive I could learn to do it as an example. I am equally positive that I have guys working for me that could do it. It doesn't take rocket appliances to figure out that it can be trained. Just like a supermarket cashier, an electrician, a boat builder, a shooter, a welder etc... Trades are by nature, trainable and replaceable. I am and always have been a tradesman.
If all of the crane operators struck and dissappeared, they would train new crane operators and get back to work. It would take a couple of years, but they would get good and fast eventually and meet the same timings that the union guys did, but probably a little less safe, a few more accidents and for half the price. Then, a bunch of highly qualified union crane operators would be working at Costco loading boxes of toilet paper up high with no union, because all of the jobs left. Before too long, those guys are going to be back at the docks, showing their qualifications and taking the now non-union job back for less money and the same qualifications.
Maybe an extreme example, but pretty likely IMO.

[Trailer Park Casanova]

Looks like GM walked off the job nationwide....I have my own personal feelings having been on both sides but what do others think?
Toyota offers a good paycheck, reasonable medical, and various retirement plans.
Can't blame GM for asking it's workers for the same thing.
Wifes employer was just voted into a agency shop union, and everyone just paid the first HEFTY monthly dues, and it stung.
Suddenly most her co-workers/sub-ordinates don't want it any more.
My job working conditions, pay, benefits and retirement got 1000% better when we brought in the Union. Local 18 IBEW.

[LOWRIVER2]

Good posts Wes,
There are good and bad unions, just like everything else. Certain professions would not exist without them, for instance, public safety. If you think anyone would do my line of work without the legal protection my union provides, along with adequate (shrinking, but adequate), health care, you'd be very wrong. You start getting sued a few times for simply doing your job without proper representation a union provides and the already short list to join up will be extinct.
I agree there are some very big problems with SOME unions in regards to some excesses, keeping slugs on the job, but for other issues I mentioned above, you simply can't operate certain public functions without union support.
Old Sergeant used to keep a box of Slug Killer on his desk to remind guys he wanted them in the field working, not hiding out being "slugs"/ lol.
That being said, the union I am around in my other job (Equipment operator), is less than adequate in health care benefits IMHO and it's rules/regulations towards companies to remain union compliant seem to push out small business from Ca. which I think is bad. Like I said, pros and cons to unions.

[Jbb]

Im not gonna go into the long list of issues I had with the fighting IAM when they represented me at Eastern Airlines....It would make my head turn purple ....
But I thought it was odd.....that at a time ...that we were trying to save an airline from being plundered and left to die by the modern day robber baron Frank Lorenzo......
The union sponsored an Indy car......It's execs flew around in a new union owned Gulfstream jet.......and all the good old boy stewards and higher level cronies were placed back in the business at other carriers.....everyone else was left out to dry.....not as promised..
suffice it to say that at the end of the day......I considered the IAM to be as big an enemy to me ....as Frank Lorenzo was...

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

<------- Married to a IBEW local 441 man
I do not have the patience to read this thread because they usually piss me off. ;)
My husband is a highly skilled, talented electrician. He is not a lazy hall rat and believes in doing quality work. He used to work non-union also and would rather work for a union shop than not. Every trade/industry has their bad examples of workers but that does not make the industry/union bad as a whole.
This is a stupid arguement to have....again. :rolleyes: You are either for or against unions. Nothing either side says will change what the other side thinks.

[djunkie]

I have no suspicion it would be done better... only cheaper. I am a big fan of the theory of Quality, Speed or Price... choose two. I think that Unions, especially in your corner of it probably have a handle on the majority of the skilled crane operators in the country. Ask the air traffic controllers about having the monopoly on skilled labor though.
People CAN be trained to run a crane. I am positive I could learn to do it as an example. I am equally positive that I have guys working for me that could do it. It doesn't take rocket appliances to figure out that it can be trained. Just like a supermarket cashier, an electrician, a boat builder, a shooter, a welder etc... Trades are by nature, trainable and replaceable. I am and always have been a tradesman.
If all of the crane operators struck and dissappeared, they would train new crane operators and get back to work. It would take a couple of years, but they would get good and fast eventually and meet the same timings that the union guys did, but probably a little less safe, a few more accidents and for half the price. Then, a bunch of highly qualified union crane operators would be working at Costco loading boxes of toilet paper up high with no union, because all of the jobs left. Before too long, those guys are going to be back at the docks, showing their qualifications and taking the now non-union job back for less money and the same qualifications.
Maybe an extreme example, but pretty likely IMO.
This is my point Wes. If these high priced crane ops were replaced I am sure there are others that could do the job. But I doubt they would do it for much less money and take as much pride in it. What incentive would it give them to do the job good if they aren't paid shit. Sadly that is the mentality of most in this world.

[Wild Horses]

Thats great for little shops like your guys, but a bigger industry with 100's of employees on the job at the same time is different. The owners are never there. Just little men running around barking orders cause they're afraid for their job. So they are gonna do whatever it takes to get the job done to cover their ass. Whether it be unsafe for the employees or not.
So in your little world big company’s have to have unions to make it, I guess the little non-union shop I work for must not measure up to your standards. We only have about 3300 employees at my plant (we are throughout North America) and are the only company to make a man rated solid rocket booster. :idea:
Don’t be afraid to look outside of your box and look at the great big world!!:D
Also I have worked here for 25 years with never being laid off or having to go on strike!:eek:

[djunkie]

So in your little world big company’s have to have unions to make it, I guess the little non-union shop I work for must not measure up to your standards. We only have about 3300 employees at my plant (we are throughout North America) and are the only company to make a man rated solid rocket booster. :idea:
Don’t be afraid to look outside of your box and look at the great big world!!:D
Also I have worked here for 25 years with never being laid off or having to go on strike!:eek:
Don't get your panties all bunched up now. You union haters are too quick to jump my shit on this subject. I never claim that all unions are good. Hell the one I'm in isn't perfect. I only try and comment on the one I am a member of. Most people always receive false information about it so I try and correct them. I will never comment on another union or someones job since I know nothing about it. I feel its not fair to comment on things you don't know about it................

[Wild Horses]

Don't get your panties all bunched up now. You union haters are too quick to jump my shit on this subject. I never claim that all unions are good. Hell the one I'm in isn't perfect. I only try and comment on the one I am a member of. Most people always receive false information about it so I try and correct them. I will never comment on another union or someones job since I know nothing about it. I feel its not fair to comment on things you don't know about it................
Sorry; you were the one insinuating that you had to be a union company to do a good big job, we are taught ownership in our work. I do the job right first for me and then for the money. :idea:
The only thing that makes me dislike unions is people like you that say we are the only ones that can do a good job, and then cry when somebody says I can do a good job and not be a member of a union. The better than everybody else mentality!
Runnin' --never been in a union-- Wild

[djunkie]

Sorry; you were the one insinuating that you had to be a union company to do a good big job, we are taught ownership in our work. I do the job right first for me and then for the money. :idea:
The only thing that makes me dislike unions is people like you that say we are the only ones that can do a good job, and then cry when somebody says I can do a good job and not be a member of a union. The better than everybody else mentality!
Runnin' --never been in a union-- Wild
I think you misunderstood me. I was simply stating that not all union employees are useless. I was merely talking in my industry that the union wasn't useless and that our crane operators take pride in there job and have the incentive to do a better a job. I can't say the same for other industries cause I don't work with them.

[Froggystyle]

...If you think anyone would do my line of work without the legal protection my union provides, along with adequate (shrinking, but adequate), health care, you'd be very wrong. You start getting sued a few times for simply doing your job without proper representation a union provides and the already short list to join up will be extinct.
Right. Exactly. And then the normalizing effect of not having any cops would come into play and they would pass laws preventing them from being sued for doing their jobs. It would actually get better in the long run to be a cop. There would be more protection, better wages and better regard for the job.
Break a few eggs, get an omelet.
I don't think the union is serving your best interests. What they are doing is creating a buffer zone between the reality of being a cop and having to do a cops job and a mis-understanding by the rest of the world that you can't break some eggs while doing it.
Imagine a world where people were so desperate for cops and firefighters that they would pay you what you are worth for the job you do? It is like that right now in Iraq and Afghanistan. They want SEALs to do the jobs that they do, but they are telling them to pound sand for $65K per year. They got out, and are making over $300K/year tax free. The demand is high for people with that skillset, and as such they are getting paid for it. There has never been such a gap in retention in the teams history. You do one platoon and get out and write your own checks. What has happenned as a result? Try $150,000 retention bonuses. Early advancement, signing bonuses, shore duty guarantees.
Funny thing is, now people are even bailing out of the contracting with $500K saved up and it is costing even more to get people to do it.
I guarandamtee you they aren't getting sued for doing it either...

[Baja Big Dog]

**** the unions!! I'm glad I live in a right to work state. My right to hire..my right to fire!!
Spoken from a true American business owner, trying to make money the old fashion way...earning it!!!
Youre lucky!!!

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

Spoken from a true American business owner, trying to make money the old fashion way...earning it!!!
Youre lucky!!!
Comments like this really piss me off. :mad: Why is that everyone believes if someone is in a union, they do not earn their pay? My husband works his ass off. He earns every single penny and benefit he gets from the union. All of you anti-union folks sure are quick to bash union people but I don't see the pro-unions bashing you?? :confused: I don't think non-unions members are lesser people or lazy.
UGH!!! Why do I read these threads. :mad: :mad:

[Baja Big Dog]

I love the term "skilled labor" like the UPS driver, or the store clerk....
Come on!!
But a least the guy that works around 12K volts is alive today because of the unions...holy shit, what a statment.:mad:

[Baja Big Dog]

Oh yea...forgot, I am gonna miss my Wonder bread, thanks unions!!!:D

[Tom Brown]

Im not gonna go into the long list of issues I had with the fighting IAM when they represented me at Eastern Airlines....It would make my head turn purple ....
You'd have a matching set.
The union sponsored an Indy car......It's execs flew around in a new union owned Gulfstream jet.......and all the good old boy stewards and higher level cronies were placed back in the business at other carriers.....everyone else was left out to dry.....not as promised..
WTF? Are you implying preferential treatment? That's not possible. Unions treat everyone with respect and dignity. :D

[Tom Brown]

UGH!!! Why do I read these threads. :mad: :mad:
Because you're awesome when you get upset. :D

[Havasu1986]

Spoken from a true American business owner, trying to make money the old fashion way...earning it!!!
Youre lucky!!!
Really...Thank god I work for a owner that has been Union since 1969.
Total Package for Foreman is $55 a hour
Service call on a emergency call $127 a hour. Not overtime rates.
Rates for bidding a commercial job is between $102 and $116 a hour.
I think he is very happy with his company. :D

[IndianaTahiti]

I rarely engage in union discussions because they end about as well as the religious ones. But I can't help but ask. You take a viable company that maybe operates on a 30% GPM. Apply the above scenario of wages increased roughly 20% for marginally skilled workers. So basically to remain in business and remain viable this company must raise it's revenue or it prices to it customers 20% also. Otherwise the company fails and everyone is out of a job. All this in light of the fact of cheap foreign competition and companies moving their factories and operations offshore to avoid just the scenario above. How is this scenario good for anyone?
A. If company fails everyone loses jobs, and the country loses one more company to foreign competition or possibly non-union competition (which may or may not be a good thing depending on your view).
B. If company remains in business prices are raised, ultimately trickling up to the end user of that product or service. This results in increased cost of living for everyone including the union workers and non-union workers.
C. Under skilled workers in many cases are given a free ride upward on the pay scale they would certainly not have in the real world of free competition and pay based upon actual work put forth and skills.
D. Then when a scenario like a couple described above occurs and that worker loses his job or is forced to retire the union says adios but still has it's hand out for dues.
E. I never hear of union management suffering along with the workers when their strikes are implemented. :idea:
As a side note, regarding the grocery strike of 03 in So Cal. I used to shop at Ralph's, Vons, and Albertsons (combination) almost exclusively. Since the strike and the way some striking employees treated and abused some customers I have returned only about 40-50% of that volume to these stores, staying with the alternative sources discovered during the strike. I'd say if I'm anything typical (not saying I am) that is not a winning scenario for store employees, stores, or unions for that matter. Just an observation.
The same may end up applying to the current GM strike scenario. GM is already struggling. I'm sure Toyota, Honda, and all the rest of the foreign competitors are going to jump on this opportunity like Lucky on a stray sheep. I can't see where the GM employees are going to win from this and thousands may lose if the strike drags out with GM closing plants or moving them offshore or subbing more shit to foreign companies. Not to mention GM as a company could fail or end up highly comprimised to remain competitive in the auto market.
Seems to me there are laws and strict guidelines now in place at state and federal levels to adequately protect employees that were not in place when labor unions originally came into being. What I see in many cases (not all of course) is excessive wages for work being performed, union managements milking the workers for money feeding them the song and dance of security and so on while actually offering very little if any beyond what the worker would get in the free market. And the argument for unions generally comes from union members who are being highly paid for jobs that in the real world would pay less (naturally this doesn't surprise me).
But when it's all said and done someone is paying the price for those highly paid jobs. I wonder why cost of living is so high especially in urban centers.... :idea: Cost of living goes up, so must wages, its a never ending circular cycle. The big spike in the spoke though is foreign competition (including US companies forced by economics to move offshore) that is not bound by union high wage requirements thus constantly gaining market share and further driving union bound otherwise viable companies to their knees.
So who really wins besides the unions themselves in the big picture? I certainly don't see any other winners except perhaps some underskilled union protected workers for the short term. I see unions much more as a company killer than a worker protector these days. I'm sure there are exceptions as there are with everything.
Flame on... ;)
You can bet that this proud unoin member will never buy any of your over priced shit. I cant believe how stupid someone can spit out shit that they have no idea what they are talkin about.Unoin members believe in made in america goods,so dont blame use for over seas job losses,that comes from greedy owners tryin to cut a buck.You really need to look deep into history and see that unions are what help keep a work week to 40 hrs. anything more should be at a penalized rate I WORK TO LIVE,NOT LIVE TO WORK! UNITED WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL,I WILL BE UNION TILL I DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plumbers&Steamfitters L.U. 166

[Baja Big Dog]

Really...Thank god I work for a owner that has been Union since 1969.
Total Package for Foreman is $55 a hour
Service call on a emergency call $127 a hour. Not overtime rates.
Rates for bidding a commercial job is between $102 and $116 a hour.
I think he is very happy with his company. :D
Whats his GM on the jobs?

[Havasu1986]

You can bet that this proud unoin member will never buy any of your over priced shit. I cant believe how stupid someone can spit out shit that they have no idea what they are talkin about.Unoin members believe in made in america goods,so dont blame use for over seas job losses,that comes from greedy owners tryin to cut a buck.You really need to look deep into history and see that unions are what help keep a work week to 40 hrs. anything more should be at a penalized rate I WORK TO LIVE,NOT LIVE TO WORK! UNITED WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL,I WILL BE UNION TILL I DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plumbers&Steamfitters L.U. 166
<-----Local 709 Fire Sprinklers. You got the spelling right 2 out of 4. :eek: :D

[Froggystyle]

Comments like this really piss me off. :mad: Why is that everyone believes if someone is in a union, they do not earn their pay? My husband works his ass off. He earns every single penny and benefit he gets from the union. All of you anti-union folks sure are quick to bash union people but I don't see the pro-unions bashing you?? :confused: I don't think non-unions members are lesser people or lazy.
UGH!!! Why do I read these threads. :mad: :mad:
You are looking way too deeply into this Linda. Nobody is claiming the union workers are lazy or overpaid. We are claiming that the ones that work hard and are worth their wage would be fine without a union. Your husband is I am sure a very hard worker and would do well here, Bangladesh, Mexico City or anywhere else that a high-quality electrical worker is valued.
Nobody would hire a union, and I can't imagine a business owner making phone calls and figuring out how to make his business a union shop. Not going to happen. For that much extra money you can afford to buy benefits, pay more and hire more people to do a better job.
I am by no means anti-union or pro-union. I am ambivilent. What I don't understand is comments like Ross' of "my life got 1000% better once I went union". How? Were you that far underpaid in the open market? Did your employers have that little foresight that they wanted only to screw you until you got fed up and left?
Or, did the power of the organized unions make it so difficult to do work and get paid for it in non-union circles that there is just nothing left for non-union labor? Like DJ said... go try to find a job as a crane operator on the docks without being union. Get some life insurance first.

[Baja Big Dog]

Comments like this really piss me off. :mad: Why is that everyone believes if someone is in a union, they do not earn their pay? My husband works his ass off. He earns every single penny and benefit he gets from the union. All of you anti-union folks sure are quick to bash union people but I don't see the pro-unions bashing you?? :confused: I don't think non-unions members are lesser people or lazy.
UGH!!! Why do I read these threads. :mad: :mad:
You read a lot into that post, it was directed a the business owner, being able to do what and how he pleases when it comes to HIS business. Period...
Ive done a lot of work for union companies, and to listen to the management say with a chukle, wonder how much money we COULD make!!

[Jbb]

You can bet that this proud unoin member will never buy any of your over priced shit. I cant believe how stupid someone can spit out shit that they have no idea what they are talkin about.Unoin members believe in made in america goods,so dont blame use for over seas job losses,that comes from greedy owners tryin to cut a buck.You really need to look deep into history and see that unions are what help keep a work week to 40 hrs. anything more should be at a penalized rate I WORK TO LIVE,NOT LIVE TO WORK! UNITED WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL,I WILL BE UNION TILL I DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plumbers&Steamfitters L.U. 166
Im a union member.....and I find his stuff reasonably priced, and his staff very friendly and helpful....:)

[Jbb]

It doesn't take rocket appliances to figure out
:D

[Havasu1986]

Whats his GM on the jobs?
Are you referring to gross max. :confused: We don't that way. My owner says it takes 18% profit to keep the doors open. My jobs that closed last fiscal year was 55%. :) Lots of new tools and trucks and bonuses this year. :D And I sold the least over all of the 5 estimators.

[Jyruiz]

Civil unions suck.
:) :) :)

[Froggystyle]

You can bet that this proud unoin member will never buy any of your over priced shit. I cant believe how stupid someone can spit out shit that they have no idea what they are talkin about.Unoin members believe in made in america goods,so dont blame use for over seas job losses,that comes from greedy owners tryin to cut a buck.You really need to look deep into history and see that unions are what help keep a work week to 40 hrs. anything more should be at a penalized rate I WORK TO LIVE,NOT LIVE TO WORK! UNITED WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL,I WILL BE UNION TILL I DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plumbers&Steamfitters L.U. 166
Comments like this aren't helping your cause. You are in fact verifying the stereotype of strong arm tactics, striking for no reason and blindly and aggressively lashing out against entrepeneurs and companies trying to actually make a profit.
Rex has some of the best prices in the business. He hires Americans, manufactures all of his billet items in California and takes a strong stand against illegal immigration. Overpriced labor is the reason jobs are going overseas... not greed. I have intensely looked into producing hulls overseas under controlled circumstances.
I am going to humbly suggest that some of the managers you are insulting, namely Rexone are trying to work to live as well. I have made sacrifices for my labor that no Union representative in the history of unions has ever made to protect their members.
A union doesn't regulate my work hours. The state of CA labor board does. My guys are upset that they aren't allowed to work more hours too, and most have side work on the weekends that they do for more money. It is expensive to live in San Diego, and if you want to make more money... well, thanks to the labor board you can't do it making your hourly pay... you need to make less working a second job two days a week.
Labor laws and regulations appear at best to be short-sighted. Rarely is the regulation really in the best interest of the labor.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

:D You read a lot into that post, it was directed a the business owner, being able to do what and how he pleases when it comes to HIS business. Period...
Ive done a lot of work for union companies, and to listen to the management say with a chukle, wonder how much money we COULD make!!
Ooops :D I am just so used to everyone bashing the unions, I took your post in the worst way.
Carry on then ;)

[Deano]

I was in the operating engineers for ten years. It made me sick to see the lazy, non-productive, losers milk the company. There was no accountability for any wrong doing and everyone talked about working for the union when I was talking about working for the company. No one could understand the concept “If you want to make money…your employer has to make money. Lots of it”
It’s pretty sad to see a useless person making the same amount as the guy hustling and doing a good job. I know that there are a lot of good union workers, but isn’t it asinine to say that non-union guys are worthless and can’t do the job as good? And to top it off they don't have pride?

[Dave C]

I always laugh when I hear the union bosses complaining that the "company" or "management" makes too much money... DUH.. thats what they are in business for, to make a profit..
It does not make sense to act in a punitive nature and bite the hand that feeds you. If the company makes money then everyone should make money...

[LOWRIVER2]

Froggy, I like your positive thinking, but it's that in between time when Public safety dropped the union representation to what you are talking about is when me and most everyone else would be out of work.
Iraq is a whole different story. I've had 25 marines from staff sgt. to Major ride with me to see how we do police work so they can teach it to them. Of course it is not going to work well. The high dollar contracting over there will come to an end,or at least shrink in demand when the eventual pull out/ deescalation comes.
Besides, what I did'nt say was that the union protects us from our employers as much as society. If it were up to cities, I'd make minimum wage, pay for all of my equipment, lease the car like cabbies, and buy my insurance, both car and life. The local govt. is a LOT less organized, deep pocket than the U.S. Navy, trust me.

[Froggystyle]

Froggy, I like your positive thinking, but it's that in between time when Public safety dropped the union representation to what you are talking about is when me and most everyone else would be out of work.
Iraq is a whole different story. I've had 25 marines from staff sgt. to Major ride with me to see how we do police work so they can teach it to them. Of course it is not going to work well. The high dollar contracting over there will come to an end,or at least shrink in demand when the eventual pull out/ deescalation comes.
Besides, what I did'nt say was that the union protects us from our employers as much as society. If it were up to cities, I'd make minimum wage, pay for all of my equipment, lease the car like cabbies, and buy my insurance, both car and life. The local govt. is a LOT less organized, deep pocket than the U.S. Navy, trust me.
I mentioned earlier what happens when qualified personnel are unavailable. The qualified ones make tons and tons of money. Way more than average in every case.
There are honestly 10 premium gel-coaters in the business right now. They are essentially unionized in the sense that they all know what they can command, and they all essentially charge the same amount. You can't beat one against another, because they are one phone call away from getting the deal pulled from the other guy for breaking the line. So, you pay upwards of $6500 per boat for two days work on gelcoating.
Or, you find another process.
Currently, the price I am paying for gelcoat is worth it for a premium job, but I would be lying if I was to tell you I wasn't ferrociously trying to train up someone to do the same job for half the price or less. The unionized mentality of price fixing labor is going to bite them in the ass when NONE of them end up working on the jobs.

[Boatcop]

Froggy, I like your positive thinking, but it's that in between time when Public safety dropped the union representation to what you are talking about is when me and most everyone else would be out of work.
Iraq is a whole different story. I've had 25 marines from staff sgt. to Major ride with me to see how we do police work so they can teach it to them. Of course it is not going to work well. The high dollar contracting over there will come to an end,or at least shrink in demand when the eventual pull out/ deescalation comes.
Besides, what I did'nt say was that the union protects us from our employers as much as society. If it were up to cities, I'd make minimum wage, pay for all of my equipment, lease the car like cabbies, and buy my insurance, both car and life. The local govt. is a LOT less organized, deep pocket than the U.S. Navy, trust me.
Arizona is non-union for Peace Officers. What we are paid and given in benefits is up to the market. Supply and demand. I will concede that my Department was one of the lowest paid in the State. But we got good benefits. Full employee Health Insurance. 50% for dependents. $1,200 a year Uniform Allowance. Weapons (Pistol, Shot Gun and Rifle) and ammo provided. Take-home cars. State Public Safety Retirement. OT on anything over 40 a week. New body armor every 5 years. 80-160 HOURS vacation a year, depending on longevity. Generous sick leave. etc.
We have lost numerous Officers to other higher paying departments. That fact was the reason we got from 12%-23% market adjustment this year, to bring us into sync with other area Agencies. (The 23% went to the lower ranks, I was in the 12% bracket)
All without union influence. Yes, there are Associations that Officers can join if they choose. Pretty much just to have legal representation.
But as was stated, there are State, Federal and Local laws and polices that protect Employees. If I, as a Police Officer, follow Department Policy, AZ POST Rules, and act based upon my Training, those laws protect me, and provide a legal umbrella. That umbrella has worked for me in a few instances. If an Officer acts outside of Laws, Rules, Policy and Training, then I'm not sure I want some Association Lawyer keeping that person in Law Enforcement.
Not begrudging anyone who chooses to join a Union or Association, but in my opinion they're not necessary.

[Havasu1986]

Arizona is non-union for Peace Officers. What we are paid and given in benefits is up to the market. Supply and demand. I will concede that my Department was one of the lowest paid in the State. But we got good benefits. Full employee Health Insurance. 50% for dependents. $1,200 a year Uniform Allowance. Weapons (Pistol, Shot Gun and Rifle) and ammo provided. Take-home cars. State Public Safety Retirement. OT on anything over 40 a week. New body armor every 5 years. 80-160 days vacation a year, depending on longevity. Generous sick leave. etc.
We have lost numerous Officers to other higher paying departments. That fact was the reason we got from 12%-23% market adjustment this year, to bring us into sync with other area Agencies. (The 23% went to the lower ranks, I was in the 12% bracket)
All without union influence. Yes, there are Associations that Officers can join if they choose. Pretty much just to have legal representation.
But as was stated, there are State, Federal and Local laws and polices that protect Employees. If I, as a Police Officer, follow Department Policy, AZ POST Rules, and act based upon my Training, those laws protect me, and provide a legal umbrella. That umbrella has worked for me in a few instances. If an Officer acts outside of Laws, Rules, Policy and Training, then I'm not sure I want some Association Lawyer keeping that person in Law Enforcement.
Not begrudging anyone who chooses to join a Union or Association, but in my opinion they're not necessary.
I have never heard of so much vacation time. :confused:

[Boatcop]

I have never heard of so much vacation time. :confused:
Fingers faster than brain.
Sorry. :D

[westair]

It was a joke. And by the way...... Hater!!!!!!!! :crossx: :crossx: Good luck getting a job in my union.
Not really a hater ..... it just gets a little old when I see these unions constantly harass non-union workers on the job with there picket signs, yelling threats, just making a scene. Then the police have to come and try to keep peace and this happens to often, mostly on larger construction projects. I know this doesn't
have anything to do with your union but was just talking in general.
BTW, those crane operators in your union make some serious cash!

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Been in a union, 11 years, untill November 2006. I watched, listened, and paid close attention to their behavior, and chewed them out on my way out the door last fall.
I gave them their chance, "bennefit of the doubt" as it were.
The most valuable days of the labor union ended 20 years ago.
Now they exist to sustain themselves, and keep slacks employed.
Any union member who thinks the union has the union member's interests as most important, is a blind fool.
Intl. Assoc. of Machinists & Aerospace Workers. IAMAW.

[Riverdog1]

I have a couple friends who retired 20 years in the force in CA. They said they get 90% full pay for the rest of their life and all the health care. Never asked if they were in a union. Under paid officers who protect us and put their life on the line day-after-day; there are some benefits to that...and, by the way, thank you for your service!!!

[Classic Daycruiser]

We have lost numerous Officers to other higher paying departments. That fact was the reason we got from 12%-23% market adjustment this year, to bring us into sync with other area Agencies. (The 23% went to the lower ranks, I was in the 12% bracket)
Some have not seen that kind of increase over the last 5-15 years. You got it in one year.
I bet there will be a lot of employees leaving there current job for a 10% increase. I have done it every 5 years for the past 17 years (911 kind of screwed things up for a couple years). I will not except an "average" of anything less than 4% a year. If I'm not making at least 25% more than i was 5 years earlier(promotion), I'm looking for a new company.
If the company can not grow their business enough to give me a reasonable raise, then I'm going to find a job somewhere else. I adapt easily to change(trainable), and have a skill set in high demand.

[vmjtc3]

but isn’t it asinine to say that non-union guys are worthless and can’t do the job as good? And to top it off they don't have pride?
Anyone who will bash all non union workers is wrong. There are a lot of highly skilled non union tradesmen. Just as there are many worthless union members. That being said, I choose to be a union tradesmen and value the five years of education I received in the apprenticeship. I believe that non union shops are necessary for the good of the economy. Most Mom and Pop business can not afford to build there business using union labor. But once they are built they contribute to the economy. A strong economy allows me to do the work I do. It is a give and take, just like anything else.

[Boatcop]

Some have not seen that kind of increase over the last 5-15 years. You got it in one year.
I bet there will be a lot of employees leaving there current job for a 10% increase. I have done it every 5 years for the past 17 years (911 kind of screwed things up for a couple years). I will not except an "average" of anything less than 4% a year. If I'm not making at least 25% more than i was 5 years earlier(promotion), I'm looking for a new company.
If the company can not grow their business enough to give me a reasonable raise, then I'm going to find a job somewhere else. I adapt easily to change(trainable), and have a skill set in high demand.
I agree. But when you're in a position and area that you love, you just have ride it out. Those who hang on gain the most.
I now make just about 4 times what I did when I started some 19 years ago. Same house payment. No more kids at home. Instead of using my whole paycheck for essentials, I'm using about 1/2 of it for luxuries and stuff we WANT, instead of stuff we need. And socking some away.
Sure, I'll only walk away with around 50% of my pay, rather than 90%, as in CA. But at what cost does that 90% come? Higher taxes, which leads to higher housing costs, higher fees, higher fuel prices, more taxes, higher everything. And when you add CO Retirement, Teacher Retirement, other State Employee retirement, etc. to the Peace Officer retirement, it's only going to get worse.
And I'm doing something I absolutely love to do, in a location that I love. No commute. No traffic. No stress. And I live at the River.
When we retire, we'll have my Police Pension. Military Pension. Wife's Federal Pension. Investment income. Social Security.
We'll be making more retired than we are working. And by that time will have NO DEBT.
And you can't do any better than that.

[hoolign]

<-----Local 709 Fire Sprinklers. You got the spelling right 2 out of 4. :eek: :D
That's because the teachers union was on strike during english 8:rolleyes:

[QuickJet]

There are not "good unions and bad unions" since the whole premis of unions is bad. That's like saying there are "good terrorist and bad terrorist". The agenda is the same. They position themselves to strong arm authority via strikes, walk outs etc. if they don't get there way. Much like a terrorist organization does when it acts out against it's government. They turn on their own country men the same way striking union workers do when a picket line is crossed by one of their "brothers". They beat the shitt out of him and throw rocks at his car.
There is not one viable reason for unions. If you don't like the companies employee package, simply don't work there. If you are that bad ass of an electrician or a pipe fitter http://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif then start your own company. Odds are you won't have any "union boys" on the payroll.

[hkunz]

Our local Carpenter's union pays people to stand out in the sun holding a sign that says, "Shame on (company name), Labor Dispute". They don't pay union wages (minimum wage only), they don't provide shade, water, or porta potties, and they hide when questioned. The folks who are the target of this campaign end up providing the water and toilets for the sign holders.
They are targeting buildings built with local labor because it was not built with "prevailing wage" based upon the LA labor market (two hours away) but rather with the going rate for labor in Bakersfield. Private activity that the union is trying to push thier propaganda on.
I say "Shame on the Union!"

[LOWRIVER2]

Alan,
We have a "Police Protective League". It can be called association, league, whatever, it's a union if dues are paid.
That being said, the litigation rates in Ca. are at least 10 times higher, multiply that with an agency that has 9,500 sworn, a city council that changes it's mind-goes on witch hunts at the flick of the hat, and you can realize why we need such protections.
You're comparing apples to oranges. I"m happy you enjoy what you do as much as I do. The negatives still are less than the positives fpr me and therefore I choose to deal with a lot of the things you don't have to. It's my choice. That being said, a set association or league is vital as we can retain very good legal defense for the times we are targeted wrongly. Give me one employee that is being defended that should not be and I honestly can give you TEN guys that were wrongly accused and have needed top notch counsel to clear their names. Most of these were from internal investigations. Problem with big departments is that many times we eat our own. If it were'nt for the defense we have, we'd be much worse off.

[Rexone]

Anyone who will bash all non union workers is wrong. There are a lot of highly skilled non union tradesmen. Just as there are many worthless union members. That being said, I choose to be a union tradesmen and value the five years of education I received in the apprenticeship. I believe that non union shops are necessary for the good of the economy. Most Mom and Pop business can not afford to build there business using union labor. But once they are built they contribute to the economy. A strong economy allows me to do the work I do. It is a give and take, just like anything else.
I would agree with that. There are good and bad. I contend though that the worthless union contingent gets much more of a protected free ride than does the same contingent in the non-union work force. Unions that insist on performance and dump the slugs get my applause. Unfortunately I think there are a lot that just protect the worthless leachs and that becomes a problem driving cost up vs total work produced in the overall big picture of rising cost of living. In the non-union world those individuals would be let go in short order.

[Rexone]

I rarely engage in union discussions because they end about as well as the religious ones. But I can't help but ask. You take a viable company that maybe operates on a 30% GPM. Apply the above scenario of wages increased roughly 20% for marginally skilled workers. So basically to remain in business and remain viable this company must raise it's revenue or it prices to it customers 20% also. Otherwise the company fails and everyone is out of a job. All this in light of the fact of cheap foreign competition and companies moving their factories and operations offshore to avoid just the scenario above. How is this scenario good for anyone?
A. If company fails everyone loses jobs, and the country loses one more company to foreign competition or possibly non-union competition (which may or may not be a good thing depending on your view).
B. If company remains in business prices are raised, ultimately trickling up to the end user of that product or service. This results in increased cost of living for everyone including the union workers and non-union workers.
C. Under skilled workers in many cases are given a free ride upward on the pay scale they would certainly not have in the real world of free competition and pay based upon actual work put forth and skills.
D. Then when a scenario like a couple described above occurs and that worker loses his job or is forced to retire the union says adios but still has it's hand out for dues.
E. I never hear of union management suffering along with the workers when their strikes are implemented. :idea:
As a side note, regarding the grocery strike of 03 in So Cal. I used to shop at Ralph's, Vons, and Albertsons (combination) almost exclusively. Since the strike and the way some striking employees treated and abused some customers I have returned only about 40-50% of that volume to these stores, staying with the alternative sources discovered during the strike. I'd say if I'm anything typical (not saying I am) that is not a winning scenario for store employees, stores, or unions for that matter. Just an observation.
The same may end up applying to the current GM strike scenario. GM is already struggling. I'm sure Toyota, Honda, and all the rest of the foreign competitors are going to jump on this opportunity like Lucky on a stray sheep. I can't see where the GM employees are going to win from this and thousands may lose if the strike drags out with GM closing plants or moving them offshore or subbing more shit to foreign companies. Not to mention GM as a company could fail or end up highly comprimised to remain competitive in the auto market.
Seems to me there are laws and strict guidelines now in place at state and federal levels to adequately protect employees that were not in place when labor unions originally came into being. What I see in many cases (not all of course) is excessive wages for work being performed, union managements milking the workers for money feeding them the song and dance of security and so on while actually offering very little if any beyond what the worker would get in the free market. And the argument for unions generally comes from union members who are being highly paid for jobs that in the real world would pay less (naturally this doesn't surprise me).
But when it's all said and done someone is paying the price for those highly paid jobs. I wonder why cost of living is so high especially in urban centers.... :idea: Cost of living goes up, so must wages, its a never ending circular cycle. The big spike in the spoke though is foreign competition (including US companies forced by economics to move offshore) that is not bound by union high wage requirements thus constantly gaining market share and further driving union bound otherwise viable companies to their knees.
So who really wins besides the unions themselves in the big picture? I certainly don't see any other winners except perhaps some underskilled union protected workers for the short term. I see unions much more as a company killer than a worker protector these days. I'm sure there are exceptions as there are with everything.
Flame on... ;)
You can bet that this proud unoin member will never buy any of your over priced shit. I cant believe how stupid someone can spit out shit that they have no idea what they are talkin about.Unoin members believe in made in america goods,so dont blame use for over seas job losses,that comes from greedy owners tryin to cut a buck.You really need to look deep into history and see that unions are what help keep a work week to 40 hrs. anything more should be at a penalized rate I WORK TO LIVE,NOT LIVE TO WORK! UNITED WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL,I WILL BE UNION TILL I DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plumbers&Steamfitters L.U. 166
Well I guess I should have taken my own advice in my first sentence. :)
As far as attacking me personally and calling my product over priced shit... well I'll just take my mom's advice on that one and shut up... ;) If you choose to get nasty with me (which I did not do in my post to anyone simply stating my big picture view on unions in general, with exceptions [last sentence]), bring it. Just make sure you do your homework first if you choose to attack me, my products, my business practices, or my pricing on same. Because I will take you to task there as I have with others in the past if you choose to go down that road with regards to damaging my business because I chose to voice my opinion that you happen to disagree with on an unrelated subject on this forum.
Further, I never indicated that union members did not believe in american made goods nor did I place blame on union members for over seas job losses. I do blame unions themselves in many (again not all) cases for driving otherwise viable businesses out of business or effectively forcing them to move over seas or go bk due to forced overpriced labor costs. Many a business has closed the doors due to unmanagable unionized labor costs forcing them out of business. In some cases it's killed entire towns that's workforce was employed at same.
Last I checked labor laws regulate (in today's world) the 40 hour work week, not labor unions, and the penalized rate you speak of is also law. It's called overtime. While unions may and likely did influence the creation of those laws, that was half a century or more ago and in today's world is not a relavent argument in favor of unions, again in my opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours as well.

[hoolign]

You can bet that this proud unoin member will never buy any of your over priced shit. I cant believe how stupid someone can spit out shit that they have no idea what they are talkin about.Unoin members believe in made in america goods,so dont blame use for over seas job losses,that comes from greedy owners tryin to cut a buck.You really need to look deep into history and see that unions are what help keep a work week to 40 hrs. anything more should be at a penalized rate I WORK TO LIVE,NOT LIVE TO WORK! UNITED WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL,I WILL BE UNION TILL I DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plumbers&Steamfitters L.U. 166
and buried in a hole dug by a private companies oriental grave digger........LMAO!

[Rexone]

Comments like this aren't helping your cause. You are in fact verifying the stereotype of strong arm tactics, striking for no reason and blindly and aggressively lashing out against entrepeneurs and companies trying to actually make a profit.
Rex has some of the best prices in the business. He hires Americans, manufactures all of his billet items in California and takes a strong stand against illegal immigration. Overpriced labor is the reason jobs are going overseas... not greed. I have intensely looked into producing hulls overseas under controlled circumstances.
I am going to humbly suggest that some of the managers you are insulting, namely Rexone are trying to work to live as well. I have made sacrifices for my labor that no Union representative in the history of unions has ever made to protect their members.
A union doesn't regulate my work hours. The state of CA labor board does. My guys are upset that they aren't allowed to work more hours too, and most have side work on the weekends that they do for more money. It is expensive to live in San Diego, and if you want to make more money... well, thanks to the labor board you can't do it making your hourly pay... you need to make less working a second job two days a week.
Labor laws and regulations appear at best to be short-sighted. Rarely is the regulation really in the best interest of the labor.
Thanks for the support Wes.
And I would like to add. Jobs moving overseas are not always about greed although I will say that this is the case some of the time. It's about economic survival for companies large and small in a world where cheap labor that "sometimes actually produces quality products" is a huge factor. Try going into the average store and randomly picking through products looking for the country of origin. Appliances, shoes, sporting goods, you name it. You will find a large % coming from China and other non American sources. Why is it that products that used to be produced in the US are now not viable to make here? The answer is complex but a component of it is in many cases overpriced labor here at home, and in many cases that is directed by labor union management dictating overpriced labor. What union employee would vote against a pay increase? A great employee or a slug, they're both gonna vote for the increase if pushed by the union.
What is lost in the big picture of all this is the loss of revenue to companies with less labor costs or to overseas companies with way less labor costs. The unions in these cases shoot their employees in the foot (they certainly don't feel the pain themselves when jobs are lost or positions eliminated). Unfortunatly for the U.S., "some", certainly not all, of the offshore products being sold in the U.S. and elsewhere are of equal or better quality than produced at home. Much of it is also junk of course.
My guys also for the most part like overtime when it's available and would like to work more and some do side jobs. Unfortunately in the world of small business where profits are not even remotely large in most cases, 8 hour limits are many times the rule, just to remain profitable at all in light of 1 1/2 or double time pay required by law. I know that is the case in my business. If it's a priority job or something that we're really up against the wall on finishing I may authorize some overtime. Otherwise not. My point... it's not about greed. It's about survival and making a living for many.

[Jbb]

Thanks for the support Wes.
And I would like to add. Jobs moving overseas are not always about greed although I will say that this is the case some of the time. It's about economic survival for companies large and small in a world where cheap labor that "sometimes actually produces quality products" is a huge factor. Try going into the average store and randomly picking through products looking for the country of origin. Appliances, shoes, sporting goods, you name it. You will find a large % coming from China and other non American sources. Why is it that products that used to be produced in the US are now not viable to make here? The answer is complex but a component of it is in many cases overpriced labor here at home, and in many cases that is directed by labor union management dictating overpriced labor. What union employee would vote against a pay increase? A great employee or a slug, they're both gonna vote for the increase if pushed by the union.
What is lost in the big picture of all this is the loss of revenue to companies with less labor costs or to overseas companies with way less labor costs. The unions in these cases shoot their employees in the foot (they certainly don't feel the pain themselves when jobs are lost or positions eliminated). Unfortunatly for the U.S., "some", certainly not all, of the offshore products being sold in the U.S. and elsewhere are of equal or better quality than produced at home. Much of it is also junk of course.
My guys also for the most part like overtime when it's available and would like to work more and some do side jobs. Unfortunately in the world of small business where profits are not even remotely large in most cases, 8 hour limits are many times the rule, just to remain profitable at all in light of 1 1/2 or double time pay required by law. I know that is the case in my business. If it's a priority job or something that we're really up against the wall on finishing I may authorize some overtime. Otherwise not. My point... it's not about greed. It's about survival and making a living for many.
....You sound........greedy....:rolleyes:

[Rexone]

How's the Jeep coming Byron. It would be nice to see an update occasionally. :rolleyes:

[Jbb]

How's the Jeep coming Byron. It would be nice to see an update occasionally. :rolleyes:
You seem to have me confused with another member...I dont have a Jeep...I drive a Cobra!...:eek:

[Shreve"T"]

Thanks for the support Wes.
And I would like to add. Jobs moving overseas are not always about greed although I will say that this is the case some of the time. It's about economic survival for companies large and small in a world where cheap labor that "sometimes actually produces quality products" is a huge factor. Try going into the average store and randomly picking through products looking for the country of origin. Appliances, shoes, sporting goods, you name it. You will find a large % coming from China and other non American sources. Why is it that products that used to be produced in the US are now not viable to make here? The answer is complex but a component of it is in many cases overpriced labor here at home, and in many cases that is directed by labor union management dictating overpriced labor. What union employee would vote against a pay increase? A great employee or a slug, they're both gonna vote for the increase if pushed by the union.
What is lost in the big picture of all this is the loss of revenue to companies with less labor costs or to overseas companies with way less labor costs. The unions in these cases shoot their employees in the foot (they certainly don't feel the pain themselves when jobs are lost or positions eliminated). Unfortunatly for the U.S., "some", certainly not all, of the offshore products being sold in the U.S. and elsewhere are of equal or better quality than produced at home. Much of it is also junk of course.
My guys also for the most part like overtime when it's available and would like to work more and some do side jobs. Unfortunately in the world of small business where profits are not even remotely large in most cases, 8 hour limits are many times the rule, just to remain profitable at all in light of 1 1/2 or double time pay required by law. I know that is the case in my business. If it's a priority job or something that we're really up against the wall on finishing I may authorize some overtime. Otherwise not. My point... it's not about greed. It's about survival and making a living for many.
Rex,
Well said !!!!:D :D :D :D

[hoolign]

You seem to have me confused with another member...I dont have a Jeep...I drive a Cobra!...:eek:
Sitting in the car..in the garage covered in dust and fiberglass does not constitue "Driving" :idea:

[Tom Brown]

I'm a union worker, by choice. My job can be classified either way. By staying within the scope of the union, I get paid overtime and EDOs which none of the out of scope employees of my company get. This is the first union job I've had and I was quite apprehensive about the union prior to taking it.
On a few occasions, my management has contacted IBM with regard to implementing new technologies. With no exceptions, IBM will submit a project proposal to bring in a few resources for several months at a total cost of a 1+ million dollars. Also with no exceptions, my management will choke on the price and get me to do it..... by myself..... in the same or less time.... with no reduction in my normal work load. So far, I've never failed to complete a project as required by the company.
No one has questioned one second of overtime I have submitted in the last 15 years. In fact, I happen to know that, at least most of the time, they don't look at the totals before signing and sending to payroll. We all know I cost pennies on the dollar, compared to out sourcing my job. I'm also aware that if I weren't producing results, they would break out an eye loupe each time I submitted my overtime.
If I were out of scope with no paid overtime, I would have quit long ago. This way, when I have to work evenings, weekends, holidays, Christmas, New Year, while I'm shitting, at lunch..... at least I get paid for it. Well, most of it. There isn't a lunch hour go by when I'm not doing something for someone. I've never charged for that or when they call me at home and I don't submit every hour of overtime I work, either. The error, in this regard, is mine. The company would gladly pay every second I work and I'm sure I could even bend things a bit the other way and they'd still be happy.
As far as the union goes, the core of our union structure, with one exception, are not people I respect. They regularly beat the drum, telling us how terrible and corrupt management is and how badly we need them to protect us. During the last round or propaganda, our general secretary stopped by my office and told me about how management was forcing a few ultra long term employees to leave. One of them, a recent widow, was well liked by everyone.
As it happens, I am close personal friends with two of these unjustly treated employees, including the widow. The two I know well enough to have details on were offered generous packages. The widow, being 48 years old and not qualifying for pension, was given full salary to age 50, a generous package, full benefits, and she will receive full pension when she reaches 50 years of age. Her package also included a gag order preventing her from talking about it, as is common in these situations. She now travels the world running marathons in all sorts of exotic places and is happier than she's been since losing her husband. Other union people I work with tell me they talk about her every meeting as a shining example of why we need a union. lol!
My other friend who was 'forced out' of the company received a similar compensation package.
As far as management goes, I respect them only a little bit more than the union. I vividly remember the presentation management provided us on the outstanding health of our pension. This was after an actuarial report that the pension was in a liability condition. The parade of speakers from prestigious accounting firms was comical. As I recall their position, they basically told us all we need is a few years with 15+% prime rates and we'll be back in the black. lol! Those presentations happened a couple of months before the government regulator stepped in, forced a short term benefit reduction, and provided a court order directing the company to backstop the $50 million shortage in the pension.
The company missed the payment deadline, is currently incurring putative damages, and insists they are going to fight it until the very end. I'm friends with a lawyer representing the pension and he tells me the grand standing is at the stage where the corporate executive will be soon find themselves personally liable for their handling of the situation. Up to now, the mounting liability has been corporate.
When I first started this job 15 years ago, I went to a couple of union meetings. The most vocal and irate people, in fact the only vocal and irate people, were the useless turds who were not desireable to work with and didn't do their jobs. For whatever reason, which does not relate to my reality, they chose to direct their immense anger at the company. Since I stopped going to the meetings, I've had a pretty good experience.
When I was sick and could not work for a year, the insurance company handling our long term disability benefit refused to pay. The union refused to help. I have a letter from them that includes the text, "we have to pick our fights". Fortunately, a lawyer friend took care of it for me.
Last summer, the union was beating the drum as loudly as they could and making strike talk at every opportunity. A buddy asked how long I could last with no income. I told him I will continue to have an income. In fact, it will go up with the overtime I will work during a strike action.
.... so I'm a union worker who thinks his union sucks ass, my management like me, I have lots of buddies who are also in the scope of the union, I've benefited from the union, I don't support the union beyond paying dues, and I find that I make out just fine by ignoring the existence of the union.

[Jbb]

generous packages.
:p

[Jbb]

Sitting in the car..in the garage covered in dust and fiberglass does not constitue "Driving" :idea:
Hater....I make engine sounds too....bRRRR..:D

[hoolign]

Hater....I make engine sounds too....bRRRR..:D
B...B...Brrrr...Brrrrr..BBBBBrrrrryyy....BBBrrrryy yyooooo......BBBBBRRRYYYOOONN...YOOOOOOOOn
YYOOOOOOONNNN ..BRBBBBBRBBRBBRYYYYYROOOOOOOONNNN...

[Jbb]

useless turds
:p

[Tom Brown]

I will also mention that tomorrow, I am going for lunch with an industry friend who wants me to consider working for his company. I'm considering it seriously. His company is not a union shop and that is definitely a plus to me.
This will be the first interview I've had in 15 years. If my management were to find out, it would probably cause quite a circus. At one point, I would have felt bad for considering jumping ship at a time when my company so desperately requires my services but at this point, it's pretty much mano-a-mano.

[Jbb]

I will also mention that tomorrow, I am going for lunch with an industry friend who wants me to consider working for his company. I'm considering it seriously. His company is not a union shop and that is definitely a plus to me.
This will be the first interview I've had in 15 years. If my management were to find out, it would probably cause quite a circus. At one point, I would have felt bad for considering jumping ship at a time when my company so desperately requires my services but at this point, it's pretty much mano-a-mano.
Selfish Prick...:mad:

[Tom Brown]

Selfish Prick...:mad:
You might be joking but you're bang on.
I've made a pretty solid salary for the last decade and a half, not to mention a ton of overtime. It would be pretty jerky to walk out during a merger of two companies valued at many multi-billions of dollars, particularly when I'm the lead network resource.
At the end of the day, however, this is what it comes down to.

[Jbb]

You might be joking but you're bang on.
I've made a pretty solid salary for the last decade and a half, not to mention a ton of overtime. It would be pretty jerky to walk out during a merger of two companies valued at many multi-billions of dollars, particularly when I'm the lead network resource.
At the end of the day, however, this is what it comes down to.
We have found the enemy, and tho.....He is us.....:eek:

[Trailer Park Casanova]

[QUOTE=Tom Brown;2808756]I'm a union worker, by choice.
,,,, [and provided a court order directing the company to backstop the $50 million shortage in the pension.]
The company missed the payment deadline, is currently incurring putative damages, and insists they are going to fight it until the very end. I'm friends with a lawyer representing the pension and he tells me the grand standing is at the stage where the corporate executive will be soon find themselves personally liable for their handling of the situation. Up to now, the mounting liability has been corporate.QUOTE
-------------------------------
We had a similar situation.
We have $8.7 billion in our pension plan with about 7.000 drawing off it.
The WW2 baby boomers have yet to retire in mass,, so the money seems to be more than ample, but as the years pass it'll make it's comittments.
Republician Polititians led by Mayor Richard Hemroidian, saw the pension fund as a cash cow for pork projects and decided to try and loot it. In addition to the looting, stop funding it with our paycheck deductions, diverting our paycheck deduction money to furthur pork projects too.
When we brought in a lawyer that reminded the multi-millionaire polititians and their appointees they all are personally liable for our pension, and in fact our union filed legal actions,, they gave up the idea.
It was a long, hard, very difficult battle.
But, they didn't get one dime from us.
The Onion occasionally comes around singing how management is "out to bone us", but no one really listens to that tune anymore.

[djunkie]

BTW, those crane operators in your union make some serious cash!
I make the same thanks. You should see what the foremen make. :D :D

[cjordan]

Well...the strike is over. Looks like someone with a brain realized that the ~100 million a day GM was burning due to the strike was going to start reducing the funds available for the VEBA funding. The "union" was in effect burning their own cash and indirectly their future health benefits lifeline....;)

[IndianaTahiti]

<-----Local 709 Fire Sprinklers. You got the spelling right 2 out of 4. :eek: :D
sorry I was just so pissed I was miss spellin,hittin wrong keys!!! I think he got my point.:devil:

[Biglue]

I will also mention that tomorrow, I am going for lunch with an industry friend who wants me to consider working for his company. I'm considering it seriously. His company is not a union shop and that is definitely a plus to me.
This will be the first interview I've had in 15 years. If my management were to find out, it would probably cause quite a circus. At one point, I would have felt bad for considering jumping ship at a time when my company so desperately requires my services but at this point, it's pretty much mano-a-mano.
Employees and employers is a relationship most people look at in one direction only. It has to work out for both sides and serves it's function until it's not satisfying to one or the other Tom. If the company you work for decides to let you go to save money, it's in their right to do so. You being 15 years a senior, tells us you're probably one of the higher paid. Seeing as how much time you spend on here also tells us you're all overhead. :D But with that same token Tom, It's entirely your choice if you want to pursue a change in the above mentioned relationship. Just my .02.
sorry I was just so pissed I was miss spellin,hittin wrong keys!!! I think he got my point.:devil:
They point I'm getting out of your posts is that you sound like the percentage of union workers who have bought the spiel "Work Union, Live Better" and can't think for themselves. Unions for the most part drive a lot of costs higher. After reading some of these threads over the past couple years, I have learned some positives about them. For example there is some unions who will weed out the slime that hides behind a Union Regulations book. I have only encountered negative experiences with unions. To each is own, if you're happy with your job, then more power to you.

[IndianaTahiti]

Thanks for the support Wes.
And I would like to add. Jobs moving overseas are not always about greed although I will say that this is the case some of the time. It's about economic survival for companies large and small in a world where cheap labor that "sometimes actually produces quality products" is a huge factor. Try going into the average store and randomly picking through products looking for the country of origin. Appliances, shoes, sporting goods, you name it. You will find a large % coming from China and other non American sources. Why is it that products that used to be produced in the US are now not viable to make here? The answer is complex but a component of it is in many cases overpriced labor here at home, and in many cases that is directed by labor union management dictating overpriced labor. What union employee would vote against a pay increase? A great employee or a slug, they're both gonna vote for the increase if pushed by the union.
What is lost in the big picture of all this is the loss of revenue to companies with less labor costs or to overseas companies with way less labor costs. The unions in these cases shoot their employees in the foot (they certainly don't feel the pain themselves when jobs are lost or positions eliminated). Unfortunatly for the U.S., "some", certainly not all, of the offshore products being sold in the U.S. and elsewhere are of equal or better quality than produced at home. Much of it is also junk of course.
My guys also for the most part like overtime when it's available and would like to work more and some do side jobs. Unfortunately in the world of small business where profits are not even remotely large in most cases, 8 hour limits are many times the rule, just to remain profitable at all in light of 1 1/2 or double time pay required by law. I know that is the case in my business. If it's a priority job or something that we're really up against the wall on finishing I may authorize some overtime. Otherwise not. My point... it's not about greed. It's about survival and making a living for many.
Have you ever tried to support a family of 5 not owning a business?In my area the average wage for the non union pipefitter is around 15 h.r. while I make 29.00 h.r. plus benifits.I have sat beside both sides while they bid a job and I tell ya this,the price per man per hr was the same.My contractor is a millionaire and happy to own a union shop.This is what I mean about greed.I have multiple certification that union training povided me.I am a highly skilled welder that helps keep refineries,nuke power house plants,steel mills,auto plants,schools and ect. running.I have a non union uncle that owns a rat shop,so I do know both sides.They did not offer any insurance,no retirement,no benifits,their traning is a joke,but they all had brand new trucks and houses off the back of their low paid workers.Those labor laws that you talk about are a direct result of union politics.We know that little shops like yours would love to only pay straight time on saturday and after 40! (Many rat factories around here love to make the workers have mandatory overtime with their job hanging in the balance if they dont comply.)You shouldnt have to work like a migrant worker to survive in this country:mad: Try driving something in this country that doesent have a union hand on it,bet you would be walking:idea: When we orginize non union people we pic and choose the men we take,usually the shops best hands,but their skill level still is usually sub standard to our membership.Do we have slugs? sure but they dont work much.we have our own way to weed out the unfit! We are not lookin for save haven from being fired,we just want a little of the pie too:)

[IndianaTahiti]

Thanks for the support Wes.
And I would like to add. Jobs moving overseas are not always about greed although I will say that this is the case some of the time. It's about economic survival for companies large and small in a world where cheap labor that "sometimes actually produces quality products" is a huge factor. Try going into the average store and randomly picking through products looking for the country of origin. Appliances, shoes, sporting goods, you name it. You will find a large % coming from China and other non American sources. Why is it that products that used to be produced in the US are now not viable to make here? The answer is complex but a component of it is in many cases overpriced labor here at home, and in many cases that is directed by labor union management dictating overpriced labor. What union employee would vote against a pay increase? A great employee or a slug, they're both gonna vote for the increase if pushed by the union.
What is lost in the big picture of all this is the loss of revenue to companies with less labor costs or to overseas companies with way less labor costs. The unions in these cases shoot their employees in the foot (they certainly don't feel the pain themselves when jobs are lost or positions eliminated). Unfortunatly for the U.S., "some", certainly not all, of the offshore products being sold in the U.S. and elsewhere are of equal or better quality than produced at home. Much of it is also junk of course.
My guys also for the most part like overtime when it's available and would like to work more and some do side jobs. Unfortunately in the world of small business where profits are not even remotely large in most cases, 8 hour limits are many times the rule, just to remain profitable at all in light of 1 1/2 or double time pay required by law. I know that is the case in my business. If it's a priority job or something that we're really up against the wall on finishing I may authorize some overtime. Otherwise not. My point... it's not about greed. It's about survival and making a living for many.
Have you ever tried to support a family of 5 not owning a business?In my area the average wage for the non union pipefitter is around 15 h.r. while I make 29.00 h.r. plus benifits.I have sat beside both sides while they bid a job and I tell ya this,the price per man per hr was the same.My contractor is a millionaire and happy to own a union shop.This is what I mean about greed.I have multiple certification that union training povided me.I am a highly skilled welder that helps keep refineries,nuke power house plants,steel mills,auto plants,schools and ect. running.I have a non union uncle that owns a rat shop,so I do know both sides.They did not offer any insurance,no retirement,no benifits,their traning is a joke,but they all had brand new trucks and houses off the back of their low paid workers.Those labor laws that you talk about are a direct result of union politics.We know that little shops like yours would love to only pay straight time on saturday and after 40! (Many rat factories around here love to make the workers have mandatory overtime with their job hanging in the balance if they dont comply.)You shouldnt have to work like a migrant worker to survive in this country:mad: Try driving something in this country that doesent have a union hand on it,bet you would be walking:idea: When we orginize non union people we pic and choose the men we take,usually the shops best hands,but their skill level still is usually sub standard to our membership.Do we have slugs? sure but they dont work much.we have our own way to weed out the unfit! We are not lookin for save haven from being fired,we just want a little of the pie too:)

[Froggystyle]

We are not lookin for save haven from being fired,we just want a little of the pie too:)
Feel free to start your own business, take untold numbers of risks and put your entire life in the balance, talk everyone you know into putting money into it, put your house up, your cars up, personally guarantee every penny that goes into or out of it and then come talk to me about getting some of my pie...
You share the risk... you share the reward. No risk, no reward.
I have employees here that have gone for months on end without pay knowing that it would come around. I will walk over fire for them. I have people that invested three years of hard work for stock in the company.
Tell me again how much of it you want to simply be hired labor?
How much have you invested in your company?

[Jbb]

Feel free to start your own business, take untold numbers of risks and put your entire life in the balance, talk everyone you know into putting money into it, put your house up, your cars up, personally guarantee every penny that goes into or out of it and then come talk to me about getting some of my pie...
You share the risk... you share the reward. No risk, no reward.
I have employees here that have gone for months on end without pay knowing that it would come around. I will walk over fire for them. I have people that invested three years of hard work for stock in the company.
Tell me again how much of it you want to simply be hired labor?
How much have you invested in your company?
Instead of pie....how about say....chicken chips....and mild pepperoni..?

[Froggystyle]

Instead of pie....how about say....chicken chips....and mild pepperoni..?
Look... here's a bunch of weed for a down payment...
Bryan... smokes... let's go...

[djunkie]

They point I'm getting out of your posts is that you sound like the percentage of union workers who have bought the spiel "Work Union, Live Better" and can't think for themselves. Unions for the most part drive a lot of costs higher. After reading some of these threads over the past couple years, I have learned some positives about them. For example there is some unions who will weed out the slime that hides behind a Union Regulations book. I have only encountered negative experiences with unions. To each is own, if you're happy with your job, then more power to you.
Don't be a hypocrite Lue. How many times have you told me you kick yourself in the ass for not going through with being a longie???:idea: :D :D

[rlj676]

Being a salaried employee of Ford, it should be obvious where I stand on unions and this strike.
I chose to work hard in HS, college and grad school. This gave me the opportunity to compete on an open market and make as much money as I'm worth compared to the next guy.
Sure, why shouldn't someone who bummed their way through life and landed a good union job make more than me with better benefits? (I know that they all aren't like this, but it is certainly possible) I don't believe the way to increase your income is holding a struggling company hostage. If you are worth increased pay, the threat of you leaving to another opportunity is what keeps your wages high enough.
Unions are similar to tariffs, and give the company a huge disadvantage in it's labor pool with artificially raising the price you pay for something.

[vmjtc3]

There are not "good unions and bad unions" since the whole premis of unions is bad. That's like saying there are "good terrorist and bad terrorist". The agenda is the same. They position themselves to strong arm authority via strikes, walk outs etc. if they don't get there way. Much like a terrorist organization does when it acts out against it's government. They turn on their own country men the same way striking union workers do when a picket line is crossed by one of their "brothers". They beat the shitt out of him and throw rocks at his car.
There is not one viable reason for unions. If you don't like the companies employee package, simply don't work there. If you are that bad ass of an electrician or a pipe fitter http://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif then start your own company. Odds are you won't have any "union boys" on the payroll.
My new company will be union. Just like the 1000's of other union company's. Let us not forget in all the union bashing ,company's can simply close down. Rename the company and open up as a non union shop. Why do you think there are union contractors. Cause they make A LOT of money.

[kamguy]

My new company will be union. Just like the 1000's of other union company's. Let us not forget in all the union bashing ,company's can simply close down. Rename the company and open up as a non union shop. Why do you think there are union contractors. Cause they make A LOT of money.
are you saying you own a company that wants to have a union work force? i haven't read a ton of posts about you so don't think i'm trying to be a smart ass.
bk

[Tom Brown]

Seeing as how much time you spend on here also tells us you're all overhead. :D
Lue, if you were to set your burrito down for a minute and think about it, you might realize I haven't been around much in about 12 months. That will continue for another 6, if I stay with my current employer.
Here's something I get a kick out of.... yesterday, my boss came into my office and gave me an iPod. He wanted to get me something for working so many long hours and he noticed I bring in my iPod sometimes so he figured I might enjoy another.
Not really needing another iPod, I might send it to djunkie.

[Jbb]

Here's something I get a kick out of.... yesterday, my boss came into my office and gave me an iPod. He wanted to get me something for working so many long hours and he noticed I bring in my iPod sometimes so he figured I might enjoy another.
Not really needing another iPod, I might send it to djunkie.
Negative ...you will send it to me, along with your lunch money....:mad:

[djunkie]

Lue, if you were to set your burrito down for a minute and think about it, you might realize I haven't been around much in about 12 months. That will continue for another 6, if I stay with my current employer.
Here's something I get a kick out of.... yesterday, my boss came into my office and gave me an iPod. He wanted to get me something for working so many long hours and he noticed I bring in my iPod sometimes so he figured I might enjoy another.
Not really needing another iPod, I might send it to djunkie.
Sweet. I can use a new paper weight. :D :D

[Dave C]

negative .. thats not in the contract.. stop being a trouble maker...:D
Not really needing another iPod, I might send it to djunkie.

[Biglue]

Don't be a hypocrite Lue. How many times have you told me you kick yourself in the ass for not going through with being a longie???:idea: :D :D
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where else can I go make a Dr.'s wages on a GED? :D
The Longies is where I would make an exception to being union. You wouldn't catch their shit all over my cars and shirts......pretty much like you don't see it on your cars and shirts. :D ;)
Lue, if you were to set your burrito down for a minute
What's with the beaner slams Brown? Don't make me give JBB a call. :mad: :D
Lue, if you were to set your burrito down for a minute and think about it, you might realize I haven't been around much in about 12 months. That will continue for another 6, if I stay with my current employer.
Here's something I get a kick out of.... yesterday, my boss came into my office and gave me an iPod. He wanted to get me something for working so many long hours and he noticed I bring in my iPod sometimes so he figured I might enjoy another.
Not really needing another iPod, I might send it to djunkie.
Good for you Tom. At least you have a boss who recognizes your commitment. WTF you doing thinking about bailing? ;)

[Rexone]

Lue, if you were to set your burrito down for a minute and think about it, you might realize I haven't been around much in about 12 months. That will continue for another 6, if I stay with my current employer.
Here's something I get a kick out of.... yesterday, my boss came into my office and gave me an iPod. He wanted to get me something for working so many long hours and he noticed I bring in my iPod sometimes so he figured I might enjoy another.
Not really needing another iPod, I might send it to djunkie.
Put some flame stickers on it Tom and put it on ebay. Hanson will be all over it like flys on a spoiled pork chop.

[IndianaTahiti]

Feel free to start your own business, take untold numbers of risks and put your entire life in the balance, talk everyone you know into putting money into it, put your house up, your cars up, personally guarantee every penny that goes into or out of it and then come talk to me about getting some of my pie...
You share the risk... you share the reward. No risk, no reward.
I have employees here that have gone for months on end without pay knowing that it would come around. I will walk over fire for them. I have people that invested three years of hard work for stock in the company.
Tell me again how much of it you want to simply be hired labor?
How much have you invested in your company?
Construction unions are entirely different unions than factories.There is a definate start,and end of a construction project.I dont stay with one company,I might work for a many as 15 different ones in a year.I follow the money!!With a hiring hall it is like having a employment office working for you,only you know up front your wage package.Just curious,how did ya get those cars and house before you started the business?I dont need an employer to go through fire for me,just pay me so I can feed my family.I understand that factory unions have alot of problems,and I dont agree with some of their practices,but why do you think they became union in the first place? How many of you business owners keep secret what you pay your employees? I bet you dont pay them the same:idea: I think its a secret cause you are embarased to tell the ones that are getting the short end of the stick,and god forbid they might want a raise.I just wonder how your lifestyle changed (if any)while you were not paying your employees?PAY YOUR PEOPLE RIGHT AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT UNION PRESENCE:)

[Troy McClure]

Construction unions are entirely different unions than factories.There is a definate start,and end of a construction project.I dont stay with one company,I might work for a many as 15 different ones in a year.I follow the money!!With a hiring hall it is like having a employment office working for you,only you know up front your wage package.Just curious,how did ya get those cars and house before you started the business?I dont need an employer to go through fire for me,just pay me so I can feed my family.I understand that factory unions have alot of problems,and I dont agree with some of their practices,but why do you think they became union in the first place? How many of you business owners keep secret what you pay your employees? I bet you dont pay them the same:idea: I think its a secret cause you are embarased to tell the ones that are getting the short end of the stick,and god forbid they might want a raise.I just wonder how your lifestyle changed (if any)while you were not paying your employees?PAY YOUR PEOPLE RIGHT AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT UNION PRESENCE:)
Couple of points:
You work for a Union that requires a hiring hall. One of the most corrupt and illegally run parts of ANY union.
When I worked for someone else, the employees that I managed knew exactly what others made in the same jobs, if not in other jobs. People talk. Some would come and ask why X made more than Y. I would tell them exactly why and they would either work to be like X, stay the way they were (Y), or would think that I was unfair and leave.
Either way it turned out, we all benefited from the relationship: The employee knew what he needed to to improve (and be paid more or advance), or knew what he would get paid if he continued on his current path, or he left to do something that he could do better and, presumably, be paid more for it.
Now that I'm a business owner, all of my employees (in the same job) know what others make. Not embarrassed to tell someone they suck as an employee. Some people do, it's life. Not afraid to tell someone they are awesome either and pay them for their work.
Not sure where people get the ideas that you espouse.
Also not worried about Union presence, too small a company. After all, Unions really are not about job/salary security, safety, or anything else you could think of. Unions are about MEMBERSHIP. Thats it. Unions without membership are (of course) non existent and then where would your Union bosses go to work???

[JryLineman]

I'm a Journeyman Lineman For Local 769 . I think Indian Tahiti hit it on the spot. Construction locals are different from factories locals. Our line of tade is one of the top five most dangerous jobs. I had to go to a 4 year apprenticeship to learn what I know now. The Union paid for it. UNION LINEMAN ARE PROVEN TO DO A JOB FASTER, AND SAFER. We get non union lineman all the time( the ones that still have limbs attached!) and put them through apprenticeships. They all say they should have done it years ago! They know their getting paid what they SHOULD be getting paid, overtime after 40 hours, equal rate of pay, retirement, and per diem.
For the people who own there own non-union buisness and pay your empoyees well ,provide overtime ,retirement , and a safe enviroment ,Im happy for you, thats the way it should be! Most companys try to f*** there employees out of this. Theres nothing worse than not giving a rats asss for another human whos ultimately making you all the money.

[JryLineman]

I'm a Journeyman Lineman For Local 769 . I think Indian Tahiti hit it on the spot. Construction locals are different from factories locals. Our line of tade is one of the top five most dangerous jobs. I had to go to a 4 year apprenticeship to learn what I know now. The Union paid for it. UNION LINEMAN ARE PROVEN TO DO A JOB FASTER, AND SAFER. We get non union lineman all the time( the ones that still have limbs attached!) and put them through apprenticeships. They all say they should have done it years ago! They know their getting paid what they SHOULD be getting paid, overtime after 40 hours, equal rate of pay, retirement, and per diem.
For the people who own there own non-union buisness and pay your empoyees well ,provide overtime ,retirement , and a safe enviroment ,Im happy for you, thats the way it should be! Most companys try to f*** there employees out of this. Theres nothing worse than not giving a rats asss for another human whos ultimately making you all the money.

[talkinghead]

UNIONS = GOOD
I hope they gain more strength in this country.

[Havasu1986]

Couple of points:
You work for a Union that requires a hiring hall. One of the most corrupt and illegally run parts of ANY union.
??
I'm not sure what you mean about corrupt. But from my owners stand point
in the fire sprinkler business. He likes that if work is slow, we can send them to the hall. And if work is busy, we can go to the hall and hire. Yes, not everybody in the hall is the same as the other, but we weed thru them. Also, since we have a total package with benefits my owner is glad he doesn't have to worry about supplying bennies and retirement like he has to do with the engineers and office people. I know because I have worked for him since 82' starting out as a apprentice, foreman, superintendent, project manager and now a estimator. ;)

[Troy McClure]

I'm not sure what you mean about corrupt. But from my owners stand point
in the fire sprinkler business. He likes that if work is slow, we can send them to the hall. And if work is busy, we can go to the hall and hire. Yes, not everybody in the hall is the same as the other, but we weed thru them. Also, since we have a total package with benefits my owner is glad he doesn't have to worry about supplying bennies and retirement like he has to do with the engineers and office people. I know because I have worked for him since 82' starting out as a apprentice, foreman, superintendent, project manager and now a estimator. ;)
Hiring halls are one of the most antiquated, corrupted systems for labor in the history of the US. They don't benefit labor (despite what many want to believe) nor business, they only benefit Union MONOPOLIES (the bosses).
Even the Ninth circuit believes. If you know anything about CA and the Ninth circuit, they are the MOST labor friendly, business hating/stifling court in the US.
One article:
http://www.nrtw.org/b/nr_211.php

[Havasu1986]

Hiring halls are one of the most antiquated, corrupted systems for labor in the history of the US. They don't benefit labor (despite what many want to believe) nor business, they only benefit Union MONOPOLIES (the bosses).
Even the Ninth circuit believes. If you know anything about CA and the Ninth circuit, they are the MOST labor friendly, business hating/stifling court in the US.
One article:
http://www.nrtw.org/b/nr_211.php
You have your right to your opinion..But I 'm trying to tell you what has worked for the company I work for the last 38 years. And will work the next 38 years. ;)

[WTMFA]

My union experience has been a double edged sword. When I joined IUOE local 501 back in 91 I started out changing light bulbs and and doing mostly grunt work due to the fact I screwed off as a kid and had no skills or training in anything. Then I was awarded an apprenticeship and for the next 5 years I took classes at the union hall at no expence to me. During that time I was so interested in what I was being taught I felt like a sponge absorbing water. During this time and after I graduated I felt pride in my work like I had never had before. Here's where it went bad for me. During the next 14 years of my career I worked in different locations around the L.A. area around many different people.
I would say 30% of the people I worked around did not posses the skills or knowledge they should have had to retain employment. Most of these people aquired employment and union membership thru friendship and family relationships with job bosses and licenses aquired while in the millitary which served no usefull purpose in our line of work. And once they were in the union their jobs were pretty secure.
This is what pissed me off.
Here I am having spent 5 years learning the in's and out's of the trade and at the risk of sounding errogant a damn good engineer, I am making the same amount of money as this guy next to me who doesn't even qualify to be here.
I spent many years dealing with this senario and while I will always be grateful for the knowledge and training I received I left the engineering field a few years ago and unless I absolutly had to I would not go back.
Being that this is the only union I have ever been in I feel that it is not my place to judge or comment on other unions. If your union works good for you more power to you. I would rather work where you get paid for WHAT YOU KNOW NOT WHOM YOU KNOW.:mad:

[Havasu1986]

My union experience has been a double edged sword. When I joined IUOE local 501 back in 91 I started out changing light bulbs and and doing mostly grunt work due to the fact I screwed off as a kid and had no skills or training in anything. Then I was awarded an apprenticeship and for the next 5 years I took classes at the union hall at no expence to me. During that time I was so interested in what I was being taught I felt like a sponge absorbing water. During this time and after I graduated I felt pride in my work like I had never had before. Here's where it went bad for me. During the next 14 years of my career I worked in different locations around the L.A. area around many different people.
I would say 30% of the people I worked around did not posses the skills or knowledge they should have had to retain employment. Most of these people aquired employment and union membership thru friendship and family relationships with job bosses and licenses aquired while in the millitary which served no usefull purpose in our line of work. And once they were in the union their jobs were pretty secure.
This is what pissed me off.
Here I am having spent 5 years learning the in's and out's of the trade and at the risk of sounding errogant a damn good engineer, I am making the same amount of money as this guy next to me who doesn't even qualify to be here.
I spent many years dealing with this senario and while I will always be grateful for the knowledge and training I received I left the engineering field a few years ago and unless I absolutly had to I would not go back.
Being that this is the only union I have ever been in I feel that it is not my place to judge or comment on other unions. If your union works good for you more power to you. I would rather work where you get paid for WHAT YOU KNOW NOT WHOM YOU KNOW.:mad:
This is a true statement, but I think in my trade it is more like 10%. But when times are slow they don't work as much. But this is no reason to quit a job that pays so well and has a nice pension. ;)

[WTMFA]

This is a true statement, but I think in my trade it is more like 10%. But when times are slow they don't work as much. But this is no reason to quit a job that pays so well and has a nice pension. ;)
I would agree with you except for the luck of the draw real estate experience my wife and I had which now alows us to live in Havasu full time with NO STRESS. Three miles from the lake, 150 miles to Glamis.
YEAH BABY!:D :D :D :D

[Havasu1986]

I would agree with you except for the luck of the draw real estate experience my wife and I had which now alows us to live in Havasu full time with NO STRESS. Three miles from the lake, 150 miles to Glamis.
YEAH BABY!:D :D :D :D
Very Nice...I will get there in 8 years with a full pension, 401 k and benefits.:D

[Warlockjer]

Retired at 55 with FULL pension from the machinists union and my wife retired at 49 from the bakers union......Say what you want!!!:) :) We dont have to be on the lake on the weekends with all the crazys, and Glamis is almost deserted during the week:D

[Havasu1986]

Retired at 55 with FULL pension from the machinists union and my wife retired at 49 from the bakers union......Say what you want!!!:) :) We dont have to be on the lake on the weekends with all the crazys, and Glamis is almost deserted during the week:D
Good for you Warlockjer. I'm sure you and wife worked hard to get to retirement. :) I will retire at 55 also. :D

[Troy McClure]

You have your right to your opinion..But I 'm trying to tell you what has worked for the company I work for the last 38 years. And will work the next 38 years. ;)
Sorry, not Opinion, FACT, hence my message above about Union members (or others) believing what you are told.
FACT: Hiring halls are NOT allowed to REQUIRE union membership to work. Just like an employer can not hire based solely on race, gender or someone being a member of a certain group, hiring halls can not also require you to be a member of a group (here, a union) to obtain employment.
HOWEVER, just try to visit the docks in Long Beach or anywhere (for that matter) and try to get a job with out being in the union. It won't happen. Sorry, that is illegal, corrupt and would not be tolerated if the shoe were on the other foot ( the companies requiring membership)
Hence the practice is illegal, not an opinion, just fact.

[Havasu1986]

Sorry, not Opinion, FACT, hence my message above about Union members (or others) believing what you are told.
FACT: Hiring halls are NOT allowed to REQUIRE union membership to work. Just like an employer can not hire based solely on race, gender or someone being a member of a certain group, hiring halls can not also require you to be a member of a group (here, a union) to obtain employment.
HOWEVER, just try to visit the docks in Long Beach or anywhere (for that matter) and try to get a job with out being in the union. It won't happen. Sorry, that is illegal, corrupt and would not be tolerated if the shoe were on the other foot ( the companies requiring membership)
Hence the practice is illegal, not an opinion, just fact.
I think your very confused between the difference between hiring halls and laid off workers going to the hall and signing the books. Get your facts strait. I am in the business, are you. :confused: OK I will explain it to you. When a union member gets laid off because lack of work or otherwise, he goes to the hall and signs the out of work list. He then waits until the next contractor needs some help and calls. He/She is then dispatched to a new job. What is wrong with that.???????

[Trailer Park Casanova]

Retired at 55 with FULL pension from the machinists union and my wife retired at 49 from the bakers union......Say what you want!!!:) :) We dont have to be on the lake on the weekends with all the crazys, and Glamis is almost deserted during the week:D
Same here, and when wife hits 49 she'll retire too.
It was a lot of gets ups.
Our customers got the lowest electricity rates and most reliable service in the Western US BTW.
It was win win.
Over my career, lots of co-workers left us and our union to start their own businesses and most did better. They were willing to take the risk and they got the rewards.
What price contentment having that paycheck waiting for you, and the retirement after 30 years?
I've never thought because someone has a better retirement deal than me they should get screwed. That's socialist thinking.
Glad to see GM back at work.
Chevy dealers are overflowing with vehicles, especially last years z06's because the dealers are so greedy asking $10 grand over sticker.
Most we saw are now mark'd down $10 grand off msrp,, and still they sit rotting away in the sun.
The company is on thin ice and the workers have to adjust to lean times.

[boater250s]

Well here goes my two cents;
I've worked for union shops and non-union shops. At this time, I do work for a union. Union only make up 17% of the work force in this country. What alwasy amazed me about people saying there are slackers in unions, I've worked with slakers at union and non-union jobs. Heck, there's propbably I slacker in your own family, that is just part of life. It's funny how when union companies go out of business, it's the unions fault. But when non-union companies go out of business, who's fault is it then? Anyway, it's usually people that don't work for unions that really dislike them, and I guess it's people like myself, who work for unions, think that there is more good than bad. Anyway, like some people that can retire early, I fall in to that category. I'll retire at 55, full medical, dental, and full pention. Oh yeah, I do work for UPS, which had a gross profit of four billion, yes, billion. So not all union companies are doing poorly, some are making a very good profit for themselves, and stock holders, again just my two cents.

[Hallett]

Been in the union for 19 years local 483 utility union it's been
good for me. no regrets.:D

[Troy McClure]

I think your very confused between the difference between hiring halls and laid off workers going to the hall and signing the books. Get your facts strait. I am in the business, are you. :confused: OK I will explain it to you. When a union member gets laid off because lack of work or otherwise, he goes to the hall and signs the out of work list. He then waits until the next contractor needs some help and calls. He/She is then dispatched to a new job. What is wrong with that.???????
I knew I would regret getting into this debate..same goes for religious debates, no mindset is going to change through a discussion on a chat board..so my last comment.
As stated in previous posts of mine. The halls are illegal as they restrict work to those who are paying to get the work (union members through their dues) If a non union member is out of work, going to the same hiring hall, he will NOT get the job. Not because he is not qualified, not because he is unsafe, etc, but because he is not a union member. Plain and simple. This practice does not help workers or business as a whole. You can argue the halls have helped you individually, however, workers as a whole are at a disadvantage. This practice will ALWAYS benefit one group as a whole and that is the Union bosses.
DONE, good luck in whatever pursuit you have chosen.

[IndianaTahiti]

I knew I would regret getting into this debate..same goes for religious debates, no mindset is going to change through a discussion on a chat board..so my last comment.
As stated in previous posts of mine. The halls are illegal as they restrict work to those who are paying to get the work (union members through their dues) If a non union member is out of work, going to the same hiring hall, he will NOT get the job. Not because he is not qualified, not because he is unsafe, etc, but because he is not a union member. Plain and simple. This practice does not help workers or business as a whole. You can argue the halls have helped you individually, however, workers as a whole are at a disadvantage. This practice will ALWAYS benefit one group as a whole and that is the Union bosses.
DONE, good luck in whatever pursuit you have chosen.
Your ignorance amuses me,The non-union does have a avenue to get work,its called the unemployment office!And let me tell you this,if a out of work union construction worker takes a job like this(salting)he will be refused or fired because of his union status!I know I have done it! Now how illegal is discrimination? We orginize small shops also so dont think that it wont happen to you:devil: This country was founded on orginized labor look it up.

[djunkie]

HOWEVER, just try to visit the docks in Long Beach or anywhere (for that matter) and try to get a job with out being in the union. It won't happen. Sorry, that is illegal, corrupt and would not be tolerated if the shoe were on the other foot ( the companies requiring membership)
Hence the practice is illegal, not an opinion, just fact.
You really do have NO clue what your talking about. We on the docks actually do have NON union workers. They're called casuals. What ever jobs we don't fill at our local 13 hall goes straight to the casual hall where Identified casuals are hired to work that job for that shift. If for some chance there is not enough casuals then that job goes back to our hall and "hangs" till someone picks it up. Years ago they used to hire Unidentified casuals off the street for the shift and give them those jobs but that can't happen anymore do to all the safety standards that are in place.

[Troy McClure]

You really do have NO clue what your talking about. We on the docks actually do have NON union workers. They're called casuals. What ever jobs we don't fill at our local 13 hall goes straight to the casual hall where Identified casuals are hired to work that job for that shift.
So those "Casuals" can go into your union hall to apply for the exact same job that you are applying for and are give the EXACT same opportunity? Here, I'll answer for you. NO THEY CAN'T THEY GET SECOND DIBS, JOBS OTHERS DON'T WANT. Hence, I do know exactly what I'm talking about and everything I said above holds true.
Sorry guys, I know I said I was done, but...well....no mindsets are going to change. However, before you start call people ignorant or tell them that they have no clue, you might want to make sure you're not talking about yourselves first.
DOH

[djunkie]

So those "Casuals" can go into your union hall to apply for the exact same job that you are applying for and are give the EXACT same opportunity? Here, I'll answer for you. NO THEY CAN'T THEY GET SECOND DIBS, JOBS OTHERS DON'T WANT. Hence, I do know exactly what I'm talking about and everything I said above holds true.
Sorry guys, I know I said I was done, but...well....no mindsets are going to change. However, before you start call people ignorant or tell them that they have no clue, you might want to make sure you're not talking about yourselves first.
DOH
Why should they get jobs ahead of us? I don't understand your thinking. We don't apply for jobs. We already have one. When the time comes for more people to come on full time thats when they get their chance. So what your trying to say is that someone off the street should come in and have the same chance at your job as you do? :confused: I doubt you'd let that happen.

[djunkie]

So those "Casuals" can go into your union hall to apply for the exact same job that you are applying for and are give the EXACT same opportunity? Here, I'll answer for you. NO THEY CAN'T THEY GET SECOND DIBS, JOBS OTHERS DON'T WANT. Hence, I do know exactly what I'm talking about and everything I said above holds true.
Sorry guys, I know I said I was done, but...well....no mindsets are going to change. However, before you start call people ignorant or tell them that they have no clue, you might want to make sure you're not talking about yourselves first.
DOH
Just curious but what union phucked you over?