Jet boat EFI

[BigBlockBaja]

Just sitting around here drinking some beer and was looking at some lightning headers. Noticed they offer an O2 sensor option. Got me thinking of looking into EFI instead of carburation. Any one have any knowledge or ideas on this? I think it would be cool to take the lap top out on the boat and tune it instead of messing with carbs. I'm much better at computers than adjusting a carb.
Your thoughts? :)

[sstjet]

Unchained knows about efi, he has a turbo Efi Big block in his boat. It runs like a raped ape.

[Oldsquirt]

Two things. First, there are factory jet boats out there with EFI-equipped Mercruiser engines. Second, EFI does not "require" an o2 sensor to operate.

[TJS]

My winter project is EFI and 8-71-ing my boat with a bugcatcher set up. I have talked to a tuner and he states you do not need an 02 but when on the dyno he would need a wide band 02 for logging data so that he can build all the tables. Once the mapping and tables are done the 02 comes out a plug goes in its place and then you can inject water to the headers. I am going to machine my fuel injector plate and fuel rails. I am looking into mega squirt, Big Stuff or FAST system.
T.J.
http://www.tjsperformance.com/images/871_blower06.jpg

[JAY4SPEED]

My winter project is EFI and 8-71-ing my boat with a bugcatcher set up. I have talked to a tuner and he states you do not need an 02 but when on the dyno he would need a wide band 02 for logging data so that he can build all the tables. Once the mapping and tables are done the 02 comes out a plug goes in its place and then you can inject water to the headers. I am going to machine my fuel injector plate and fuel rails. I am looking into mega squirt, Big Stuff or FAST system.
T.J.
http://www.tjsperformance.com/images/871_blower06.jpg
T.J. were you going to machine your own fuel rails and injector plate just because you wanted to? I wasn't sure if you knew that you can purchase an injector plate and fuel rails from BDS and Kinsler fuel injection already outfitted for blown EFI with a bugcatcher. I'm going the exact same route myself :) If you are going to machine your own just because you can, I'd call that bad ass. Nice work you have on your website BTW.
Jay

[Unchained]

Just sitting around here drinking some beer and was looking at some lightning headers. Noticed they offer an O2 sensor option. Got me thinking of looking into EFI instead of carburation. Any one have any knowledge or ideas on this? I think it would be cool to take the lap top out on the boat and tune it instead of messing with carbs. I'm much better at computers than adjusting a carb. Your thoughts? :)
Once when I was tuning on my setup with the laptop while idleing along in the boat someone yelled out, HOW ARE THOSE STOCKS DOING ? :rolleyes:
True you only need the O2 sensor for tuning but if you could leave it in all the time and run closed loop would be the ultimate setup. I would like to run closed loop but my Haltech E6K won't read a wide band O2 sensor so I run right off the maps open loop. The newer model Haltech will read a wide band sensor as will the Big stuff or the FAST.
If you are going to use a bug catcher for EFI you may want to disable the center butterfly like BDS does to get some resolution to the throttle.
There are some throttle bodies available that will directly replace a carburetor. The injectors plug right into the base and they have the TPS right on them. They would bolt right on the blower. Sanger Rat sent me a link to that web site a while back. They were a fraction of the cost of the BDS unit.

[biggraypig]

There are some throttle bodies available that will directly replace a carburetor. The injectors plug right into the base and they have the TPS right on them. They would bolt right on the blower. Sanger Rat sent me a link to that web site a while back. They were a fraction of the cost of the BDS unit.
Not to hijack, but do you still have the link? I would be interested.

[Outlaw]

I will let you know how mine works out by spring.
I will be running a Multiport with a 1000cfm throttle body and a Haltech E6X
ecm. I plan on running in closed loop. I still have alot of learning to go.
this will be on a 502 with a 5 psi boost from an intercooled procharger. I cant wait for the boating season to end so I can tear into it.

[Outlaw]

here is a pic of the intake and billet throttle body I will be using

[oknozelman]

I run Accel gen7 on my boat w/ a bug and 16 injectors, work great:)

[oknozelman]

I run Accel gen7 on my boat w/ a bug and 16 injectors, work great:)
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3552belt.JPG
This is an old pic the new motor is a Merc 900 hp w/ a 12-71 and this same efi set up

[oknozelman]

And if you run the Accel wide band o-2 it has a built in dataloging system that is very cool cause it is hard to read your laptop @ over 110mph:D :D

[Jordy]

I saw a jet out at Lake Pleasant this year with a cadillac northstar engine in it. Had all the plastics on it, and looked pretty cool. Guess it's something I'm just not used to seeing. Very clean looking setup.

[Nubbs]

Fuel injection is cool, but it is very expensive. It is definitely more easy to tune with a laptop than removing bowls and changing jets. It is also infinitely adjustable, something you don't have with carburetors. That said, my plans are to add fuel injection to my motor this offseason. I will also do away with my distributor and run COP (coil on plug) ignition. I've started gathering some of the parts. I will be using the following stuff:
ECU: AEM EMS (got to love the employee discount!!)
Harness: I'll make my own
Manifold, throttle body, fuel rails: Edelbrock
Injectors: RC Engineering
CDI and Coils: AEM
Fuel pressure regulator and filter: AEM
In order to run true sequential injection and coil on plug ignition, the ECU needs to know the exact position of the engine in its cycle. Most factory engines use one sensor for the crank and another sensor(s) for the cam(s). Since my engine is a BBC, there no great factory crank and cam sensors available. So, I'm going to use the new (not quite released yet) AEM engine position module. This module replaces the distributor and gives the ECU a signal for both the crank and cam. Here's a picture of it.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/epm.jpg
The AEM EMS has dual onboard UEGO controllers so I can run closed loop fueling with feedback while targeting a chosen air fuel ratio.
Any questions? Feel free to ask away or pm me.
Nubbs

[TJS]

T.J. were you going to machine your own fuel rails and injector plate just because you wanted to? I wasn't sure if you knew that you can purchase an injector plate and fuel rails from BDS and Kinsler fuel injection already outfitted for blown EFI with a bugcatcher. I'm going the exact same route myself :) If you are going to machine your own just because you can, I'd call that bad ass. Nice work you have on your website BTW.
Jay
BDS is a lot of $$$. I did get a BDS bugcather that they modified to only use the center butterfly as the throttle body. I will machine the plate and I already have the fuel rail material from Ross Machine. I have the 6061 plate and a rough draft. I just need the time to get it done. Oh yes I am also looking at the Accel Gen 7 as well.
T.J.

[N281PONY]

I run Accel gen7 on my boat w/ a bug and 16 injectors, work great:)
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3552belt.JPG
This is an old pic the new motor is a Merc 900 hp w/ a 12-71 and this same efi set up
Are you firing all 16 injectors all the time or are you using 8 for idle and low boost and when boost comes up start firing all of them. A buddy of mine is doing this with 22 injectors on an alky setup. Seems to work pretty good.

[BigBlockBaja]

This is some good info guys. Years ago I did a TPI swap from a Camaro IROC into my pickup truck. Used the stock wiring harness and it worked pretty good. The cold starts and throttle response was great. I think those bug catchers are cool as hell, but I'm looking for something for a normal lake boat. Like one of those Holley pro injection setups with the closed loop kit. But I heard somewhere they aren't too good. Is there any other kits that I can bolt on and tune with a laptop? I don't have access to a machine shop to weld in injector bungs, so I was leaning toward TBI instead of multi port, unless I can find a manifold with the bungs already installed.

[TJS]

This is some good info guys. Years ago I did a TPI swap from a Camaro IROC into my pickup truck. Used the stock wiring harness and it worked pretty good. The cold starts and throttle response was great. I think those bug catchers are cool as hell, but I'm looking for something for a normal lake boat. Like one of those Holley pro injection setups with the closed loop kit. But I heard somewhere they aren't too good. Is there any other kits that I can bolt on and tune with a laptop? I don't have access to a machine shop to weld in injector bungs, so I was leaning toward TBI instead of multi port, unless I can find a manifold with the bungs already installed.
I have a tunnel ram that is already converted for EFI. What needs to be done though is an upper box and a throttle body. If you go to Ross Machine they sell a box type set up and an end plate that will accept a Ford 5.0 bolt pattern throttle body. If you are interseted let me know. It will be going on e-bay in a while. I am in no rush though.
Here is a pic of it.
http://www.tjsperformance.com/images/bbcbuild10.jpg

[ap67et10]

well i am not quite as radical as most people here running efi but i love my setup. it funny watching people trying to figure out what the heck it is considering its sitting in a 76 sanger mini cruiser jet boat! its amazingly relyable. it has amazing throttle response and the gas mileage is better than any boat i've ever had (and its a big sled). filled up both 15 gal. tanks and went 3 weekends cruising and skiing and a couple hot laps at our cabin 5,000ft. basically about 6-8 hours total running and only filled up because it seemed like i should have run out the weekend before (no fuel gauges). one thing about all the carb boats i've had is that pulling skiers is weird with the constant throttle changing trying to reach a set rpm and even without skiers sometimes its hard to just hold an rpm...not with this its so perfectly steady. just like a brand new car! i can't say enough about efi in a boat. everything i ever do will always have efi unless i can't afford it.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r102/ap67et10/minifinished.jpg?t=1191632578
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r102/ap67et10/minifinished4.jpg?t=1191632639
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r102/ap67et10/minifinished7.jpg?t=1191632712
AP

[sstjet]

AP, Very nice setup you have. Looks great.

[sanger rat]

Not to hijack, but do you still have the link? I would be interested.
http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/showresults?q=all_products

[JAY4SPEED]

I run Accel gen7 on my boat w/ a bug and 16 injectors, work great:)
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3552belt.JPG
This is an old pic the new motor is a Merc 900 hp w/ a 12-71 and this same efi set up
NICE SETUP!!! Are those injectors run in batch fire or bank to bank? I'm doing a similar setup and was wondering how the engine handles the gap of time from when the injectors fire to when the fuel actually makes it into the cylinder after having to travel through the blower, intercooler, and intake. It is quite a distance as compared to port injection. I'm guessing the engine is slow to repsond to fuel changes?
Correction, after staring at that pic for a while and drooling, I've just noticed that you run 8 injectors on top of the blower and 8 port injectors. In what sequence do they fire? Could you give some detalis please? Sick man, thats just sick!!
I've always wondered if direct port injection could be done by itself with this same type of setup. Instead of the injectors being on top of the blower, they would be on the intake manifold right at the intake ports of the heads spraying at the intake valve. You could run true sequential injection. That way the engine would respond instantly to fueling changes not to mention cooler denser fuel into the cylinder. The fuel pressure would have to be boost refrenced of course. But I guess the big question is if the blower needs the fuel coming in from the top to lubricate the rotors?
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

Fuel injection is cool, but it is very expensive. It is definitely more easy to tune with a laptop than removing bowls and changing jets. It is also infinitely adjustable, something you don't have with carburetors. That said, my plans are to add fuel injection to my motor this offseason. I will also do away with my distributor and run COP (coil on plug) ignition. I've started gathering some of the parts. I will be using the following stuff:
ECU: AEM EMS (got to love the employee discount!!)
Harness: I'll make my own
Manifold, throttle body, fuel rails: Edelbrock
Injectors: RC Engineering
CDI and Coils: AEM
Fuel pressure regulator and filter: AEM
In order to run true sequential injection and coil on plug ignition, the ECU needs to know the exact position of the engine in its cycle. Most factory engines use one sensor for the crank and another sensor(s) for the cam(s). Since my engine is a BBC, there no great factory crank and cam sensors available. So, I'm going to use the new (not quite released yet) AEM engine position module. This module replaces the distributor and gives the ECU a signal for both the crank and cam. Here's a picture of it.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/epm.jpg
The AEM EMS has dual onboard UEGO controllers so I can run closed loop fueling with feedback while targeting a chosen air fuel ratio.
Any questions? Feel free to ask away or pm me.
Nubbs
Nubbs,
I'm also a big fan of coil on plug ignition. Are you running true coil on plug or are your running a dis type waste spark system (coil packs)? If you can comment on it, on that AEM engine position module, what kind of reference signal does it put out for a crank and cam signal. Is it a 52x crank signal and a 2x cam signal or some proprietary signal only the AEM module will understand? I understand the concept and think its a novel approach to the idea of how to get reference signals out of engines that didn't originally have crank and cam sensor / reluctors built in. But how does the engine position module deal with things such as timing chain wear and distributer gear wear? It seems that an engine that has some miles / hours on it and some considerable wear and if that module is driven off of the cam, and the cam timing is sloppy it will throw off the crank signal it is generating and can make spark timing very inaccurate. I wouldn't think it would be much more accurate spark timing wise than a regular distributer. Wasn't that the whole reason why modern day OEM fuel injection systems moved from getting their spark signals from a distributer type pickup and started to get their spark signals straight off of the crankshaft? That way there is no chance for "slop" throwing the signal off? Why not design a bolt on reluctor similar to a flying magnet crank trigger system (but with a lot more resolution) that bolts to the balancer on the front of crank. I think electromotive has a crude version of this. If someone could refine that and make a really stout bolt on crank trigger system, that would be ideal and you can use the distributer type pickup for the cam sensor since thats not nearly as critical and is a lot lower resolution. That way there can be dead on ignition timing in relation to crank degrees and you can still have your sequential injection with your cam sensor working along with your crank sensor.
BTW I think the duel Wideband UEGO controllers is bad ass! Thats the future of aftermarket EFI and will take EFI to a new level of fueling control. Its one thing to monitor and log 1 wideband O2 then make your changes manually, but its something entirely different to have you ECM monitor 2 widebands, bank to bank, and controlling fuel off of them. That is information you can't get reading plugs.
Jay

[YeLLowBoaT]

Question...
why would you not want to run a O2 sensor all the time?

[JAY4SPEED]

Question...
why would you not want to run a O2 sensor all the time?
In short, to answer your question, it depends if you want to run water injected exhaust or not in a marine application.
In my opinion, its better to run O2s closed loop for maximum efficiency. Thats only possible if you don't have water being injected into the exhaust stream or if water jacketed headers are used. If you are good at tuning and can get your base fuel map dialed in dead nuts on, there is no need for an O2 sensor at all. You can get away without an O2 and run open loop because there won't be any substantial corrections needed to be made on the base fuel map and then you can run water injected exhaust. Constant exposure to water will shorten the life span of an O2 sensor. The O2 sensor has a self contained electric heating element that just doesn't jive with water in the exhaust stream
Air fuel ratio is not derived from O2 sensors. It originates from the base fuel map that the ECM uses to calculate how long the fuel injector is held open. The O2 sensor only senses how much unburned oxygen is in the exhaust stream. Thats it, thats all it does. The more oxygen present in the exhaust stream, the less efficient the last combustion event was. There was not enough combustion to completly burn all the oxygen. Although O2s are not essential for an EFI system to run, they are used to check the efficiency of combustion and can give the ECM data to nudge the base fuel map as a fine adjustment. EFI systems can exist without O2 sensor data easliy.
Most fuel injection systems that use narrow band O2s, will ignore O2s all together under wide open throttle situations and rely completely on the base fuel map. Narrow band O2 sensors only operate around stoich (14.7:1). Thats great for cruising and fuel effecincy but not for maximum power where around (12.3:1) is the most accepted AFR for most power. Narrow bands don't operate in that range so the ECM just ignores it. Therefore, most narrow band O2s are only utilized for part throttle cruising. But that is starting to change as wideband O2 sensor are starting to catch on.
Narrow band O2 sensors can only tell that the engine is running "richer or leaner" from stoich (14.7:1). A wide band O2 sensor can tell "how rich or how lean" (12.3:1 or 13.7:1 or 16.6:1). As wide bands are catching on, ECM are starting to use this info to have more of a direct impact on the base fuel tables. Its getting to the point where you just tell the ECM what AFR you want it to run and it adjusts until it achieves it. It basically tunes itself. But for now, we just log wideband data to manually adjust fuel maps to get them dead nuts on.
Jay

[YeLLowBoaT]

So what your saying is the ECU does not work with the the O2 sensor you need to run so there for you only use it for tuning?
I understand the water injected headers, but why would jacked headers make diffrence?
seems to me like it would be rather easy to map something out to correct for the cooler EGTS.
My EFI exp is just fixing them on cars...Seems like it would be the way to go with boat when you add up the cost of fuel and carbs these days.

[JAY4SPEED]

So what your saying is the ECU does not work with the the O2 sensor you need to run so there for you only use it for tuning?
I think I understand but I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. The ECM never "needs" an O2 sensor of any kind. It can run fine without any O2s at all. It just won't be as fuel efficient. You can crawl under your car at home and unplug every O2 sensor and it will start and run fine. It will have a check engine light on but it will run. It won't run as efficient as it could but then again it will run. Its running because it runs off of the base fuel map not the O2s.
O2s are there to check on the ECM that its adding fuel correctly. There are times when the ECM will ask the O2 of their "opinion" of whats happening and may or may not make a change based on what they report. But there are specific times when the ECM won't listen to them no matter what they say (wide open throttle) because they can't be trusted. The older narrow band O2s are "not very accurate" to say it simply. Up until just recently ECMs would only work with narrow band O2 sensors.
Aftermarket ECMs are coming out now that use wideband O2 sensors.
On the other hand the newer wideband O2s are "extremely" accurate. The ECM will listen to them and it can trust them even all the way up through wide open throttle.
Since older ECMs would not work with "accurate" wideband O2 sensors, we have been using stand alone widebands to read the actual AFR the engine is running in. Then we would have to manually make changes with the laptop to the base fuel map. A stand alone wideband is basically a wideband O2 sensor that plugs into a handheld box that has a digital readout of AFR (it would display 12.2:1 for example) People use stand alone wideband O2 sensor systems all the time to adjust carbs as well. Now with the newer ECMs we can plug them in to the wideband O2s and they can understand and tune themselves to a certain point.
I understand the water injected headers, but why would jacked headers make diffrence?
Jacketed headers are basically dry headers on the inside. The O2 sensor is in the non water flowing portion of the exhaust. Water doesn't touch the O2 so it works fine.
seems to me like it would be rather easy to map something out to correct for the cooler EGTS.
Thats exactly what happens. Right now, we use wideband O2s the same as using EGTs to tune an engine. Widebands are just way more accurate. Where there is descrepencies that we see with the wideband, we just tell the ECM to add or subtract fuel at that point to bring the fuel curve back in line. The best part is that we can do the same with timing.
My EFI exp is just fixing them on cars...Seems like it would be the way to go with boat when you add up the cost of fuel and carbs these days.
Exactly ;) . The hardest thing to get past is the inital cost of buying a complete EFI system. The important thing about EFI in a marine application is to make the wiring completely waterproof. Thats where people get frustrated when the electrical gremlins creep in. Hey, I'm a GM Mastertech at a chevy dealership. I'm just like you and have all my EFI knowlege in cars, but I started dabbling in tweaking factory EFI systems on LS1s and do that as a side business now. I'm still learning too:D No matter how much you know or think you know, there is always something else to learn.
Jay

[Unchained]

No matter how much you know or think you know, there is always something else to learn.
Jay
And that about sums it up....:D

[Hass828]

I think I understand but I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. The ECM never "needs" an O2 sensor of any kind. It can run fine without any O2s at all. It just won't be as fuel efficient. You can crawl under your car at home and unplug every O2 sensor and it will start and run fine. It will have a check engine light on but it will run. It won't run as efficient as it could but then again it will run. Its running because it runs off of the base fuel map not the O2s.
O2s are there to check on the ECM that its adding fuel correctly. There are times when the ECM will ask the O2 of their "opinion" of whats happening and may or may not make a change based on what they report. But there are specific times when the ECM won't listen to them no matter what they say (wide open throttle) because they can't be trusted. The older narrow band O2s are "not very accurate" to say it simply. Up until just recently ECMs would only work with narrow band O2 sensors.
Aftermarket ECMs are coming out now that use wideband O2 sensors.
On the other hand the newer wideband O2s are "extremely" accurate. The ECM will listen to them and it can trust them even all the way up through wide open throttle.
Since older ECMs would not work with "accurate" wideband O2 sensors, we have been using stand alone widebands to read the actual AFR the engine is running in. Then we would have to manually make changes with the laptop to the base fuel map. A stand alone wideband is basically a wideband O2 sensor that plugs into a handheld box that has a digital readout of AFR (it would display 12.2:1 for example) People use stand alone wideband O2 sensor systems all the time to adjust carbs as well. Now with the newer ECMs we can plug them in to the wideband O2s and they can understand and tune themselves to a certain point.
Jacketed headers are basically dry headers on the inside. The O2 sensor is in the non water flowing portion of the exhaust. Water doesn't touch the O2 so it works fine.
Thats exactly what happens. Right now, we use wideband O2s the same as using EGTs to tune an engine. Widebands are just way more accurate. Where there is descrepencies that we see with the wideband, we just tell the ECM to add or subtract fuel at that point to bring the fuel curve back in line. The best part is that we can do the same with timing.
Exactly ;) . The hardest thing to get past is the inital cost of buying a complete EFI system. The important thing about EFI in a marine application is to make the wiring completely waterproof. Thats where people get frustrated when the electrical gremlins creep in. Hey, I'm a GM Mastertech at a chevy dealership. I'm just like you and have all my EFI knowlege in cars, but I started dabbling in tweaking factory EFI systems on LS1s and do that as a side business now. I'm still learning too:D No matter how much you know or think you know, there is always something else to learn.
Jay
I'll stick with my carb, especially since I saw the Carb vs EFI thread with the link to a shop were they turn out 2200hp big blocks with one 850cfm carb and a pro charger. Didnt even have turbos.

[Nubbs]

Nubbs,
I'm also a big fan of coil on plug ignition. Are you running true coil on plug or are your running a dis type waste spark system (coil packs)? If you can comment on it, on that AEM engine position module, what kind of reference signal does it put out for a crank and cam signal. Is it a 52x crank signal and a 2x cam signal or some proprietary signal only the AEM module will understand? I understand the concept and think its a novel approach to the idea of how to get reference signals out of engines that didn't originally have crank and cam sensor / reluctors built in. But how does the engine position module deal with things such as timing chain wear and distributer gear wear? It seems that an engine that has some miles / hours on it and some considerable wear and if that module is driven off of the cam, and the cam timing is sloppy it will throw off the crank signal it is generating and can make spark timing very inaccurate. I wouldn't think it would be much more accurate spark timing wise than a regular distributer. Wasn't that the whole reason why modern day OEM fuel injection systems moved from getting their spark signals from a distributer type pickup and started to get their spark signals straight off of the crankshaft? That way there is no chance for "slop" throwing the signal off? Why not design a bolt on reluctor similar to a flying magnet crank trigger system (but with a lot more resolution) that bolts to the balancer on the front of crank. I think electromotive has a crude version of this. If someone could refine that and make a really stout bolt on crank trigger system, that would be ideal and you can use the distributer type pickup for the cam sensor since thats not nearly as critical and is a lot lower resolution. That way there can be dead on ignition timing in relation to crank degrees and you can still have your sequential injection with your cam sensor working along with your crank sensor.
BTW I think the duel Wideband UEGO controllers is bad ass! Thats the future of aftermarket EFI and will take EFI to a new level of fueling control. Its one thing to monitor and log 1 wideband O2 then make your changes manually, but its something entirely different to have you ECM monitor 2 widebands, bank to bank, and controlling fuel off of them. That is information you can't get reading plugs.
Jay
Jay,
You are right. A sensor/wheel setup on the crank would be most accurate for crank position. That said, using the distributor type pickup is no worse than a distributor. The pickup module was designed for easy installation and fitment. I don't think it can get much easier to install and it doesn't take up much space. My engine, for example, does not have room for a crank mounted trigger wheel and sensor. The module has a 24 and 1 timing pattern. That means there are 24 crank pulses and one cam pulse for every engine cycle (720 degrees of crank rotation). Another thing to consider, this module was designed for older style, V8's with distributor ignition. It was not designed to replace the factory sensors on the newer engines.
I will be running actual coil on plug. No coilpacks for me.

[Unchained]

I would like really like to have a distributorless setup too but I don't know if my Haltech can be configured for it. I would have to upgrade to a later model ECU like the E6X. That's another long term improvement I want to do to add to the list.
I've got a Hall effect crank trigger setup and I believe that's all I would need to trigger the whole thing.
Why would you want to go sequential ?
Research I've done shows no advantage at all when used on big V8's like we use. Sequential requires twice the injector pulse time and would be a limiting factor for anything but a low performance engine. I could never use it for my engine because I'm at 78% duty cycle when I run 20# boost with 160# injectors. Multipoint has worked fine for me.

[JAY4SPEED]

I would like really like to have a distributorless setup too but I don't know if my Haltech can be configured for it. I would have to upgrade to a later model ECU like the E6X. That's another long term improvement I want to do to add to the list.
I've got a Hall effect crank trigger setup and I believe that's all I would need to trigger the whole thing.
Why would you want to go sequential ?
Research I've done shows no advantage at all when used on big V8's like we use. Sequential requires twice the injector pulse time and would be a limiting factor for anything but a low performance engine. I could never use it for my engine because I'm at 78% duty cycle when I run 20# boost with 160# injectors. Multipoint has worked fine for me.
Damn!! thats a lot of injector:eek:. Thats got to take some amps to pull one of those 160# injectors open. Thats bad ass! What fuel pressure are you running? I didn't remember if your motor was port injected or had an injector plate setup. I'd love to see how yours is set up. Out of curiosity, have you looked into going staged 16 injector setup? I don't have any experience with staged setup but would love to learn more about it.
I've had a look at the manual for the E6X recently and one of the ignition signals its accepts is a hall effect trigger. It may work out for you.
http://www.haltech.com/downloads/e6xv303v2Windows_manual.pdf
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

Jay,
You are right. A sensor/wheel setup on the crank would be most accurate for crank position. That said, using the distributor type pickup is no worse than a distributor. The pickup module was designed for easy installation and fitment. I don't think it can get much easier to install and it doesn't take up much space. My engine, for example, does not have room for a crank mounted trigger wheel and sensor. The module has a 24 and 1 timing pattern. That means there are 24 crank pulses and one cam pulse for every engine cycle (720 degrees of crank rotation). Another thing to consider, this module was designed for older style, V8's with distributor ignition. It was not designed to replace the factory sensors on the newer engines.
I will be running actual coil on plug. No coilpacks for me.
Nubbs, when does the engine position module hit the market? I'd like to look into it for some street rod applications.
C-O-P is where its at! I need to look into that from you guys also. Thanks for the info!
Jay

[Unchained]

Damn!! thats a lot of injector:eek:. Thats got to take some amps to pull one of those 160# injectors open. Thats bad ass! What fuel pressure are you running? I didn't remember if your motor was port injected or had an injector plate setup. I'd love to see how yours is set up. Out of curiosity, have you looked into going staged 16 injector setup? I don't have any experience with staged setup but would love to learn more about it.
Jay
I see where some run two sets of injectors but I don't know why.
I'm guessing its to help a wimpy ECU that cant fire big injectors at a short enough pulse timing for idle speed. I'm down around 1.7 ms at idle at 6.5 at WOT.
I run 40# of fuel pressure with the big injectors and it will idle smooth at 1000 rpm and still deliver more than enough fuel at 7000 rpm.
The motor is port injected. I would never run the fuel mixture through the intercooler.

[Nubbs]

Nubbs, when does the engine position module hit the market? I'd like to look into it for some street rod applications.
C-O-P is where its at! I need to look into that from you guys also. Thanks for the info!
Jay
Jay,
Check back with me after the SEMA show. I should have some better info for you then.
Nubbs

[Nubbs]

I would like really like to have a distributorless setup too but I don't know if my Haltech can be configured for it. I would have to upgrade to a later model ECU like the E6X. That's another long term improvement I want to do to add to the list.
I've got a Hall effect crank trigger setup and I believe that's all I would need to trigger the whole thing.
Why would you want to go sequential ?
Research I've done shows no advantage at all when used on big V8's like we use. Sequential requires twice the injector pulse time and would be a limiting factor for anything but a low performance engine. I could never use it for my engine because I'm at 78% duty cycle when I run 20# boost with 160# injectors. Multipoint has worked fine for me.
I see no reason for why you wouldn't want to run sequential, other than the ecu not supporting it. How are your injectors configure to fire? How do you figure sequential injection is a limiting factor on performance engines? Not trying to start anything, just don't understand. In the end, all that really matters is performance and there's usually more than one way to skin a cat.
Nubbs

[Outlaw]

I have the E6X and was told that it was not worth the extra cost to run sequential on a engine with less than 1k
HP. shows very little gain on dyno results. and takes considerable more time to set up fuel maps.
I do agree that with coil on plug ignition would be trick.
but does it provide any more power?
by the way lets keep this thread going, I'm going to need alot of advice this winter

[texas-19]

I would like really like to have a distributorless setup too but I don't know if my Haltech can be configured for it. I would have to upgrade to a later model ECU like the E6X. That's another long term improvement I want to do to add to the list.
I've got a Hall effect crank trigger setup and I believe that's all I would need to trigger the whole thing.
Why would you want to go sequential ?
Research I've done shows no advantage at all when used on big V8's like we use. Sequential requires twice the injector pulse time and would be a limiting factor for anything but a low performance engine. I could never use it for my engine because I'm at 78% duty cycle when I run 20# boost with 160# injectors. Multipoint has worked fine for me.
Mark,i'm using sequential with the Big Stuff 3 with 160# injectors,idles great and no problems on top end.I've scared a bunch of people this year. :D

[texas-19]

I would like really like to have a distributorless setup too but I don't know if my Haltech can be configured for it. I would have to upgrade to a later model ECU like the E6X. That's another long term improvement I want to do to add to the list.
I've got a Hall effect crank trigger setup and I believe that's all I would need to trigger the whole thing.
Why would you want to go sequential ?
Research I've done shows no advantage at all when used on big V8's like we use. Sequential requires twice the injector pulse time and would be a limiting factor for anything but a low performance engine. I could never use it for my engine because I'm at 78% duty cycle when I run 20# boost with 160# injectors. Multipoint has worked fine for me.
Mark,i'm using sequential with the Big Stuff 3 with 160# injectors,idles great and no problems on top end.I've scared a bunch of people this year. :D
Are you talking just about the Haltech system?

[Unchained]

Mark, I'm using sequential with the Big Stuff 3 with 160# injectors,idles great and no problems on top end.I've scared a bunch of people this year. :D
Are you talking just about the Haltech system?
Are you sure ?
Sequential injection only fires the injectors during the intake stroke which is going to be every other time around. It would take a lot of injector pulse time to get enough fuel in the engine. Multipoint fires every time around. Twice the fuel is going in even though it doesnt coincide exactly with the intake stroke.
What is your injector pulse time ? since we're using the same size injectors and same size engine the pulse time should reflect the difference between the setups.
I was told the sequential setups' advantage was to give a small engine better low end torque.
The Haltech can be configured for sequential inj. also.

[Outlaw]

Ok i have to ask.... why would you need 160# injectors?
I'm sitting here playing around with a fuel injection selector program
and it shows a 160# injector is good for 2000hp
based on a 80% duty cycle and a BSFC of .60
what am I missing?

[texas-19]

Ok i have to ask.... why would you need 160# injectors?
I'm sitting here playing around with a fuel injection selector program
and it shows a 160# injector is good for 2000hp
based on a 80% duty cycle and a BSFC of .60
what am I missing?
Yep,i'm running a 540 with a pair of precision 47-88's.The turbo's are rated for 1400 hp a piece.Why go with a smaller injector when you can make them work just fine and not worry about having to go larger?
I don't have the rods for 2000 hp,but that's gonna change this winter. :D
Mark,i'm positive i'm running sequential,i'll get back to you with some numbers
Here is what i'm running:
http://www.texas***boats.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10069/IMG_4472_%28Medium%29.JPG

[Outlaw]

DANG..........
Thats alot of hamburger..

[Unchained]

When buying injectors, Their all about the same price so why go small ?
You just need to have an ECU that will fire them for the short pulse time for idle speed. The motor starts and idles real smooth.
Mike that finished engine looks awesome !!!!
I know you''re running a mild tune for the first year on your new setup. With sequential you may be limited to 1000 hp. I know you're using a tuning Guru that knows how to do it better than anyone, maybe I'm missing something here.

[Nubbs]

With sequential you may be limited to 1000 hp.
I'm confused :confused: Why does sequential injection limit your power?

[Unchained]

I'm confused :confused: Why does sequential injection limit your power?
I mentioned this in a previous post on this thread,
Sequential injection only fires the injectors during the intake stroke which is going to be every other time around. It would take a lot of injector pulse time to get enough fuel in the engine. Multipoint fires every time around. Twice the fuel is going in even though it doesnt coincide exactly with the intake stroke.
The limitation is the amount of injector pulse time that you can get from your injectors. They say not to run them above 80% duty cycle.

[texas-19]

When buying injectors, Their all about the same price so why go small ?
You just need to have an ECU that will fire them for the short pulse time for idle speed. The motor starts and idles real smooth.
Mike that finished engine looks awesome !!!!
I know you''re running a mild tune for the first year on your new setup. With sequential you may be limited to 1000 hp. I know you're using a tuning Guru that knows how to do it better than anyone, maybe I'm missing something here.
Mark,here is the way it was explained to me.
(8)160 # injectors can inject 1280 lbs of fuel per hour .
2000 hp engine needs about 1000 lbs per hour of fuel.
1000/1280=.78 duty cycle.
So i should be around 78% duty cycle,pending on what rpm i reach 2000 hp.
My tuner had another calculation for that.
He said i am @ 40 to 45% duty cycle right now.
Also he said it doesn't matter wheather you get 1 pulse every stroke
or a longer one every other stroke and that their is 17mls of pulse width available per stroke.
I'll have to admit i'm pretty spoiled.I'll send him logs and he'll send the tune up via email.I download and
test again.
I'm learning alot but it's still a huge learning curve for me.

[JAY4SPEED]

I mentioned this in a previous post on this thread,
The limitation is the amount of injector pulse time that you can get from your injectors. They say not to run them above 80% duty cycle.
Mark,here is the way it was explained to me.
(8)160 # injectors can inject 1280 lbs of fuel per hour .
2000 hp engine needs about 1000 lbs per hour of fuel.
1000/1280=.78 duty cycle.
So i should be around 78% duty cycle,pending on what rpm i reach 2000 hp.
My tuner had another calculation for that.
He said i am @ 40 to 45% duty cycle right now.
Also he said it doesn't matter wheather you get 1 pulse every stroke
or a longer one every other stroke and that their is 17mls of pulse width available per stroke.
I'll have to admit i'm pretty spoiled.I'll send him logs and he'll send the tune up via email.I download and
test again.
I'm learning alot but it's still a huge learning curve for me.
Are you guys running boost refrenced fuel pressure or running static fuel pressure and letting the ECM compensate by longer pulse width for boost?
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

To add to the oversized injector questions:
I was always taught to match the injector size based on 80% duty cycle at max fuel delivery for the horsepower the engine is putting out. Matching the injector to the engine insures proper fuel control. Large injectors do not usually have as good low duty cycle fuel manners as smaller injectors. Think of it as trying to fill a shot glass from a bottle of bourbon with a pour spout then trying to fill a shot glass of bourbon without a pour spout. With the pour spout, there is a lot more control. Without the spout, you would fill the shot glass faster but it may spill all over and be sloppy. If your job was to pour precise measured shots of bourbon, which one would you want to work with?
They have come a long way in injectors in the past few years with "peak and hold" low impedance injectors over "saturated" injectors. The ECM does not have as much electrical load on it with peak and hold injectors. With saturated injectors, the ECM is having to receive (i say receive because we all know that an ECM grounds injectors) a long surge of high amperage current to open and keep open a high impedance "saturated" injector. This builds heat inside of the ECM. With peak and hold injectors, the ECM only has to receive high amps to pop the injector open then it ramps the amperage down to keep it open. This gives bigger injectors more precise fuel control and takes a hell of a lot of load off of the ECM. So with peak and hold injectors, lower duty cycle fuel manners of bigger oversized fuel injectors have improved, but in my opinion, not as good as a matched peak and hold injector.
The downside to using too large of injector is that low speed drive-ability and idle can suffer. I feel that in a car on the street, the effects are more noticeable than they are in a boat. In a boat, you can get away with things that you couldn't with a car. Another downside to over sized injectors is that they can cause oscillations of fuel pressure inside of the fuel rail that may play a role in fuel starvation at higher RPMs. One injector can actually pull fuel away from another in a fuel rail if the fuel delivery system is not up to par to keep them monsters supplied with adequate volume fuel.
The upside to too large of an injector is that there is reserve available if the extra fuel demands are needed. Fuel pressure is less critical with oversize injectors. Its easier to lean on the injector for boosted applications with oversized injectors. After all its better to be too big in the injectors than to small and have a lean out condition.
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

I do agree that with coil on plug ignition would be trick.
but does it provide any more power?
Paul, I noticed no one answered this one for ya. To answer the question, yes theoretically it can add more power with infinitely better timing control, but more importantly, COP keeps you from losing power. I say that because in a coil on plug application, the dwell time is increased substantially per coil, this allows the coil to charge to full potential every time, at all RPMs. When compared to a distributer where the coil discharges multiple times per crank revolution, the coil looses (dwell) time to charge up between discharges as the RPMs go up to the point where it cannot reach a full charge. Therefore spark output suffers. COP outputs full spark voltage at high RPMs much more reliably timing wise and performance wise. COP coils also run so much cooler than a DIS (coil pack) or distributer setup. This makes them a perfect match to a marine engine that runs at WOT for long periods of time. There is much less chance of coil failure and much longer lifespan for the coil.
by the way lets keep this thread going, I'm going to need alot of advice this winter
I very much agree!!:) :) I love learning about this stuff! Keep it going fellas!
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

I run Accel gen7 on my boat w/ a bug and 16 injectors, work great:)
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3552belt.JPG
This is an old pic the new motor is a Merc 900 hp w/ a 12-71 and this same efi set up
I would still love to learn about this setup, oknozelman, if your out there?:) Who makes the intake manifold for port injected blown EFI setups?
Jay

[texas-19]

Are you guys running boost refrenced fuel pressure or running static fuel pressure and letting the ECM compensate by longer pulse width for boost?
Jay
I'm using the largest electric magnafuel fuel pump they make and their boost referenced fuel pressure regulator
I agree with keeping this thread going,their is some good info here.
I do have the low impedence 160# injectors and it idles perfect.
Also does COP mean a coil per every plug?

[Unchained]

Texas 19,
What are you using for a trigger ?
Do you have a separate one on the crank and the cam ?
I thought sequential programming required a trigger on the cam.
I've been using a Hall effect crank trigger. I had one toast on me and I'm on the second one. I got the replacement from MSD. I've had problems matching plugs between the Haltech harness and the one that came with the MSD Hall effect sensor.

[JAY4SPEED]

I'm sitting here playing around with a fuel injection selector program
and it shows a 160# injector is good for 2000hp
based on a 80% duty cycle and a BSFC of .60
what am I missing?
Paul, which injector selector program are you using? Is it the one from Performance Trends?
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

I'm using the largest electric magnafuel fuel pump they make and their boost referenced fuel pressure regulator
I agree with keeping this thread going,their is some good info here.
I do have the low impedence 160# injectors and it idles perfect.
Also does COP mean a coil per every plug?
Thanks, I was wondering what fuel strategy you were dealing with the added fuel demand from boost. Personally, I've never worked with peak and hold 160# injectors before. From what your saying it sounds like they are pretty manageable. Would you say that they would be docile enough for a car with a manual trans on the street?
Yes, you have it correct, COP means "coil on plug" or "coil over plug" which means that each spark plug has it own ignition coil.
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

And that about sums it up....:D
Mark, I saw you post in the other thread about having a cam driven fuel pump with an electric booster pump. When you have the time, could you give me the rundown on your fuel supply system, I've never seen that before.
Thanks,
Jay

[Unchained]

Mark, I saw you post in the other thread about having a cam driven fuel pump with an electric booster pump. When you have the time, could you give me the rundown on your fuel supply system, I've never seen that before. Thanks,Jay
I set it up to be capable of 2000 hp like what Mike (Texas 19 ) did.
It is hard to get that much fuel at high pressure (under boost) with an electric pump. Mike did it with a real large Magnaflow.
I have had issues with electric pumps before, mostly Holleys, so I opted for the cam driven mechanical pump. The pump puts out plenty, supposed to be capable of 2500 hp and 200psi and the flow of the mechanical pump parallells the rpm somewhat. The disadvantage of the mechanical pump is that there is little to no pressure at cranking speed. You would have to crank the engine over a long time to get it started or squirt raw fuel into the scoop to get it started which is so crude.
I added a small little electric pump to put pressure in the fuel rails to get it started. I have a button on the dash that operates the electric pump. Works great.
The disadvantage of electric pumps is that they flow the same amount of fuel at idle or WOT. Not a big deal on a street car but a lot of extra fuel flowing for a big V8.

[texas-19]

Texas 19,
What are you using for a trigger ?
Do you have a separate one on the crank and the cam ?
I thought sequential programming required a trigger on the cam.
I've been using a Hall effect crank trigger. I had one toast on me and I'm on the second one. I got the replacement from MSD. I've had problems matching plugs between the Haltech harness and the one that came with the MSD Hall effect sensor.
Mark,yes i have a crank trigger and the cam sensor.
All my ignition system is msd including the crank trigger and so far so good with that.I set up the distributor with a reluctor.
I had to cut my harness to get the crank trigger tied into it also.

[texas-19]

Thanks, I was wondering what fuel strategy you were dealing with the added fuel demand from boost. Personally, I've never worked with peak and hold 160# injectors before. From what your saying it sounds like they are pretty manageable. Would you say that they would be docile enough for a car with a manual trans on the street?
Yes, you have it correct, COP means "coil on plug" or "coil over plug" which means that each spark plug has it own ignition coil.
Jay
I'm running a 540 with the 160# injectors and i have great throttle response either from idle to part throttle or WOT.I have not run any other system so i can't compare but i am really happy mine.I would say if you have a large motor,go for it.Your not that far away,come over here and i'll show you. :D

[TJS]

I set it up to be capable of 2000 hp like what Mike (Texas 19 ) did.
It is hard to get that much fuel at high pressure (under boost) with an electric pump. Mike did it with a real large Magnaflow.
I have had issues with electric pumps before, mostly Holleys, so I opted for the cam driven mechanical pump. The pump puts out plenty, supposed to be capable of 2500 hp and 200psi and the flow of the mechanical pump parallells the rpm somewhat. The disadvantage of the mechanical pump is that there is little to no pressure at cranking speed. You would have to crank the engine over a long time to get it started or squirt raw fuel into the scoop to get it started which is so crude.
I added a small little electric pump to put pressure in the fuel rails to get it started. I have a button on the dash that operates the electric pump. Works great.
The disadvantage of electric pumps is that they flow the same amount of fuel at idle or WOT. Not a big deal on a street car but a lot of extra fuel flowing for a big V8.
Sounds cool Mark. One question though. How are you plumbing this. Is your elect. fuel pump system feeding the other side of the fuel rails that would normally be blocked off at the "Y". Do you have a check valve of some sort so the elect. pump does not "bleed" off fuel when the mechanical pump takes over. Sounds cool though.
T.J.

[JAY4SPEED]

I set it up to be capable of 2000 hp like what Mike (Texas 19 ) did.
It is hard to get that much fuel at high pressure (under boost) with an electric pump. Mike did it with a real large Magnaflow.
I have had issues with electric pumps before, mostly Holleys, so I opted for the cam driven mechanical pump. The pump puts out plenty, supposed to be capable of 2500 hp and 200psi and the flow of the mechanical pump parallells the rpm somewhat. The disadvantage of the mechanical pump is that there is little to no pressure at cranking speed. You would have to crank the engine over a long time to get it started or squirt raw fuel into the scoop to get it started which is so crude.
I added a small little electric pump to put pressure in the fuel rails to get it started. I have a button on the dash that operates the electric pump. Works great.
The disadvantage of electric pumps is that they flow the same amount of fuel at idle or WOT. Not a big deal on a street car but a lot of extra fuel flowing for a big V8.
Who makes the mechanical pump setup, is it the same type as the alky injection guys use? I saw where you were running 40# in the rails. If the mechanical can put out 200# (I'm assuming thats at top rpm) I'm guessing you have a very good fuel pressure regulator and a stout fuel return setup. This fuel delivery system sounds great, looks like I'll need to get into some research on it. Thanks for the info!
Jay

[Outlaw]

Paul, which injector selector program are you using? Is it the one from Performance Trends?
Jay
No it was not that one, I have it on my work PC
I will look tomorrow.
Let hear what everybody else uses

[AaronL]

http://www.racepumps.com/
http://www.racepumps.com/images2/Pump%20-%20Big%20Block%20Chevy%20and%20Mopar%20%281600,%20 1601,%202000,%202001%29%2072%20DPI.jpg
They are supposed to be good to 2500HP. They also say you need to use their regulator (I think most of their systems are returnless?).
I'm waiting for the BBF one to come out early next year. I am also concerned about low fuel pressure when cranking to start. I'd rather not have to spray fuel into the turbos every time I need to start the boat. I'd also like to know exactly how you plumbed your 'primer' electric fuel pump into the fuel system, and what one you used.
Thanks

[Unchained]

The electric pump is T'eed into the line between the fuel rails and the mechanical pump and there is a -6 check valve in the line. I got the check valve from Summit, I think it is an Aeroquip.
The mechanical fuel pump is Aeromotive and I'm real happy with their stuff. They will draw fuel up from the tank where an Enderle pump will not.
Aeromotive makes the pump with a 3/8 hex drive now but I altered my old belt drive pump shaft to a hex drive. I had a machinist grind the flats on the 1/2" shaft on an index head.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Plumbers_nightmare_.jpg
There's a river rat water pump stacked under the fuel pump now.
You can see the electric primer pump in the pic but the check valve is behind a line next to the fuel filter.

[TJS]

Has anybody heard good or bad about racepump's EFI pumps and regulators. The regulators for supercharged apps look like they do not have a return. The do have regulators that are not recommended that are called idle bleed.
I am converting to an 8-71 with a bugcatcher EFI this winter. I have all the lines already in my boat (all same size that racepump rec). Anyway just wondering if anybody has run the EFI pumps yet. I am in the process of fabricating my spacer that will hold the 96 lb injectors. Here are a couple of pics.
T.J.
http://www.tjsperformance.com/images/injectorplate03.jpg
http://www.tjsperformance.com/images/injectorplate04.jpg

[Outlaw]

http://kgparts.com/index.php?page=fuel-calc
Is this injector calculator correct?
I'm going to purchase injectors good for 1000hp
although I will only be about 800hp this year.
this will be on a procharger engine. I figured .60 bsfc
at 85% duty cycle and come up with 88lb injector.

[JAY4SPEED]

Paul, Assuming 45 psi base fuel pressure, 800 HP and a peak HP at a RPM of 6500 this is what my fuel injector calculator spit out for 88# injectors at BSFC of .60. Also this is firing twice per crank revolution. (I wasn't sure if you were running port injection or not). The calculator recommended a MIN of a 70# injector required. But here are the specs for a 88# injector which I think would have some saftey margin built in.
Performance Trends Fuel Injector Calculator (C) 2002
Registered to: Jay4speed
Estimated Engine Torque and HP Curve
Fuel: Gasoline (sp gr .75 BSFC .60)
Fuel Injector Requirements for File: Untitled
Using Injector(s) Rated at: 88 lb/hr
Engine Engine Engine Duty Pulse Width,
RPM Torque HP Cycle% milliseconds
2400 569 260 17.5 4.38
2500 577 274 18.6 4.46
2600 584 289 19.6 4.53
2700 592 304 20.7 4.61
2800 600 320 21.9 4.69
2900 607 335 23.0 4.76
3000 615 351 24.2 4.84
3100 623 368 25.4 4.92
3200 630 384 26.7 5.00
3300 638 401 27.9 5.08
3400 646 418 29.2 5.16
3500 654 436 30.5 5.24
3600 661 453 31.9 5.32
3700 666 469 33.2 5.38
3800 670 485 34.4 5.44
3900 675 501 35.7 5.50
4000 679 517 37.1 5.56
4100 684 534 38.4 5.62
4200 688 550 39.8 5.68
4300 693 567 41.2 5.75
4400 697 584 42.6 5.81
4500 702 601 44.0 5.87
4600 706 619 45.5 5.94
4700 711 636 47.0 6.00
4800 711 650 48.3 6.04
4900 711 664 49.6 6.07
5000 711 677 50.9 6.11
5100 711 691 52.3 6.15
5200 711 704 53.6 6.19
5300 712 718 55.0 6.22
5400 712 732 56.4 6.26
5500 712 745 57.8 6.30
5600 712 759 59.2 6.34
5700 705 765 60.2 6.33
5800 697 770 61.2 6.33
5900 690 775 62.2 6.32
6000 683 780 63.2 6.32
6100 676 785 64.2 6.31
6200 668 789 65.2 6.31
6300 661 793 66.2 6.30
6400 654 797 67.2 6.30
6500 646 800 68.2 6.29
6600 633 796 68.2 6.20
6700 620 791 68.2 6.11
6800 607 786 68.2 6.02
6900 594 780 68.2 5.93
7000 571 761 68.2 5.84
7100 548 741 68.2 5.76
7200 525 720 68.2 5.68
7300 476 662 68.2 5.60
7400 427 602 68.2 5.53
7500 378 540 68.2 5.45

[Outlaw]

Thanks Jay,
I guess I should purchase that Performance Trends Fuel Injector Calculator.
I plan on running in multipoint mode, that fires all injectors simultaneously. I'm not going to try Sequential mode untill I have more experience with EFI.
I do have the option of running in Batch mode.
I just though I would buy injectors large enough for my
target HP of 1000 now.

[Unchained]

Also this is firing twice per crank revolution.
Are you sure ? I've never heard of that configuration. :idea:

[Outlaw]

What brand of injector should I look for?
and which one should I stay away from?
Mark do you run in multi mode or batch mode?
Jay, (I wasn't sure if you were running port injection or not). I'm not sure what you meant? I do have on injector per cylinder.

[cyclone]

Have any of you guys with port injection set ups used 02 sensors in each primary tube to establish a/f of each cylinder? I was considering using this arrangement to correct a few lean cylinders i have due to the design of my intake manifold rather than reshape the intake runners and re-dyno the motor several times to get the a/f of each cylinder where it needs to be.

[Unchained]

What brand of injector should I look for?
and which one should I stay away from?
Mark do you run in multi mode or batch mode?
Jay, (I wasn't sure if you were running port injection or not). I'm not sure what you meant? I do have on injector per cylinder.
As far as I know one brand is the same as another. It either flows the right amount or it is defective.
My injectors say FoMoCo on the side and I believe they were made for an LP gas engine.
I have been running multipoint programming from the start. All the injectors fire at the same time once per revolution. It has worked real well for me.
Have any of you guys with port injection set ups used 02 sensors in each primary tube to establish a/f of each cylinder? I was considering using this arrangement to correct a few lean cylinders i have due to the design of my intake manifold rather than reshape the intake runners and re-dyno the motor several times to get the a/f of each cylinder where it needs to be.
I don't think anyone with port inj. EFI ever puts an O2 sensor on each primary tube because the injectors all flow exactly the same amount so there is no variation.
Go talk to this local guy (for you) and ask him the best way to do it,
Duttweiler Performance
Ventura, Ca.
805 659 3648

[JAY4SPEED]

I'll compare the numbers for firing twice per cycle to once per cycle. It just seems to double the pulse width time.
Twice per cycle
Performance Trends Fuel Injector Calculator (C) 2002
Registered to: Jay4speed
Estimated Engine Torque and HP Curve
Fuel: Gasoline (sp gr .75 BSFC .60)
Fuel Injector Requirements for File: Untitled
Using Injector(s) Rated at: 88 lb/hr
Engine Engine Engine Duty Pulse Width,
RPM Torque HP Cycle% milliseconds
2400 569 260 17.5 4.38
2500 577 274 18.6 4.46
2600 584 289 19.6 4.53
2700 592 304 20.7 4.61
2800 600 320 21.9 4.69
2900 607 335 23.0 4.76
3000 615 351 24.2 4.84
3100 623 368 25.4 4.92
3200 630 384 26.7 5.00
3300 638 401 27.9 5.08
3400 646 418 29.2 5.16
3500 654 436 30.5 5.24
3600 661 453 31.9 5.32
3700 666 469 33.2 5.38
3800 670 485 34.4 5.44
3900 675 501 35.7 5.50
4000 679 517 37.1 5.56
4100 684 534 38.4 5.62
4200 688 550 39.8 5.68
4300 693 567 41.2 5.75
4400 697 584 42.6 5.81
4500 702 601 44.0 5.87
4600 706 619 45.5 5.94
4700 711 636 47.0 6.00
4800 711 650 48.3 6.04
4900 711 664 49.6 6.07
5000 711 677 50.9 6.11
5100 711 691 52.3 6.15
5200 711 704 53.6 6.19
5300 712 718 55.0 6.22
5400 712 732 56.4 6.26
5500 712 745 57.8 6.30
5600 712 759 59.2 6.34
5700 705 765 60.2 6.33
5800 697 770 61.2 6.33
5900 690 775 62.2 6.32
6000 683 780 63.2 6.32
6100 676 785 64.2 6.31
6200 668 789 65.2 6.31
6300 661 793 66.2 6.30
6400 654 797 67.2 6.30
6500 646 800 68.2 6.29
6600 633 796 68.2 6.20
6700 620 791 68.2 6.11
6800 607 786 68.2 6.02
6900 594 780 68.2 5.93
7000 571 761 68.2 5.84
7100 548 741 68.2 5.76
7200 525 720 68.2 5.68
7300 476 662 68.2 5.60
7400 427 602 68.2 5.53
7500 378 540 68.2 5.45
Once per cycle
Performance Trends Fuel Injector Calculator (C) 2002
Registered to: Jay4speed
Estimated Engine Torque and HP Curve
Fuel: Gasoline (sp gr .75 BSFC .60)
Fuel Injector Requirements for File: Untitled
Using Injector(s) Rated at: 88 lb/hr
Engine Engine Engine Duty Pulse Width,
RPM Torque HP Cycle% milliseconds
2400 569 260 17.5 8.76
2500 577 274 18.6 8.92
2600 584 289 19.6 9.07
2700 592 304 20.7 9.22
2800 600 320 21.9 9.38
2900 607 335 23.0 9.53
3000 615 351 24.2 9.69
3100 623 368 25.4 9.84
3200 630 384 26.7 10.00
3300 638 401 27.9 10.16
3400 646 418 29.2 10.31
3500 654 436 30.5 10.47
3600 661 453 31.9 10.63
3700 666 469 33.2 10.75
3800 670 485 34.4 10.87
3900 675 501 35.7 11.00
4000 679 517 37.1 11.12
4100 684 534 38.4 11.24
4200 688 550 39.8 11.37
4300 693 567 41.2 11.49
4400 697 584 42.6 11.62
4500 702 601 44.0 11.74
4600 706 619 45.5 11.87
4700 711 636 47.0 12.00
4800 711 650 48.3 12.07
4900 711 664 49.6 12.15
5000 711 677 50.9 12.22
5100 711 691 52.3 12.30
5200 711 704 53.6 12.37
5300 712 718 55.0 12.45
5400 712 732 56.4 12.52
5500 712 745 57.8 12.60
5600 712 759 59.2 12.68
5700 705 765 60.2 12.67
5800 697 770 61.2 12.66
5900 690 775 62.2 12.64
6000 683 780 63.2 12.63
6100 676 785 64.2 12.62
6200 668 789 65.2 12.61
6300 661 793 66.2 12.60
6400 654 797 67.2 12.59
6500 646 800 68.2 12.59
6600 633 796 68.2 12.40
6700 620 791 68.2 12.21
6800 607 786 68.2 12.03
6900 594 780 68.2 11.86
7000 571 761 68.2 11.69
7100 548 741 68.2 11.52
7200 525 720 68.2 11.36
7300 476 662 68.2 11.21
7400 427 602 68.2 11.06
7500 378 540 68.2 10.91

[JAY4SPEED]

Are you sure ? I've never heard of that configuration. :idea:
Firing twice per cycle is batch fire or bank to bank. Once per cycle is true port injection.
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

Jay, (I wasn't sure if you were running port injection or not). I'm not sure what you meant? I do have on injector per cylinder.
Paul,
Port injection is when the injector is mounted in the intake as close to the intake valve as possible and fires once per cycle in sequence of firing order.
Different brand injectors although rated at the same flow quantity, can have spray pattern differences. I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't tell the difference performance wise from one spray pattern to another with a big CI engine. Of course you have to consider weather an injector is a saturated type or peak and hold with peak and hold being the better of the two.
Sorry I don't have much experience (yet) with the size injectors you guys are running so I can't really recommend a brand. I'll do some checking around to see if I can come up with some info from some buddies that run big CI EFI. Paul, as you do your research on the larger sized injectors, throw some links up so that we all can see whats out there.
Don't spend the money on Performance Trends fuel injection calculator. I can do the calcs for you with my copy and give you the results. Its a nice program and gives more detail than the ones given on websites but I don't think the extra info is worth the $50.00. Besides it can calculate fuel needs extremely accurately, but people tend to go a little over sized anyway for insurance and room for upgrades later on making the accuracy of the software not so critical.
Did you ever get those heads you were telling me about?
Jay

[JAY4SPEED]

What software does everyone else use for fuel injector calcs?
Jay

[Outlaw]

Paul,
Port injection is when the injector is mounted in the intake as close to the intake valve as possible and fires once per cycle in sequence of firing order.
Different brand injectors although rated at the same flow quantity, can have spray pattern differences. I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't tell the difference performance wise from one spray pattern to another with a big CI engine. Of course you have to consider weather an injector is a saturated type or peak and hold with peak and hold being the better of the two.
Sorry I don't have much experience (yet) with the size injectors you guys are running so I can't really recommend a brand. I'll do some checking around to see if I can come up with some info from some buddies that run big CI EFI. Paul, as you do your research on the larger sized injectors, throw some links up so that we all can see whats out there.
Don't spend the money on Performance Trends fuel injection calculator. I can do the calcs for you with my copy and give you the results. Its a nice program and gives more detail than the ones given on websites but I don't think the extra info is worth the $50.00. Besides it can calculate fuel needs extremely accurately, but people tend to go a little over sized anyway for insurance and room for upgrades later on making the accuracy of the software not so critical.
Did you ever get those heads you were telling me about?
Jay
No I have been spending my boating budget on other things. I upgraded my M1 to an M3sc procharger.
after pulling my jet apart, looks like I need a new shaft, stainless impeller and a complete overhaul.$$
I'm having Jack at MPD cut me a new shoe.
lots of little things need replaced. I may end up
putting rods in the 502 and running it for another year.
as far as my manifold the injector tip is projected into
the intake port of the head, Could you run the #'s for
1000 hp in multipoint mode, Fuel: Gasoline (sp gr .75 BSFC .60)?
I will post any links I find worth while.

[JAY4SPEED]

Paul,
It requires 88.25# injectors minimum for a 85% duty cycle on that setup. This is sequential, once per cycle with 88# injectors at 45 psi
Performance Trends Fuel Injector Calculator (C) 2002
Registered to: Jay4speed
Estimated Engine Torque and HP Curve
Fuel: Gasoline (sp gr .75 BSFC .60)
Fuel Injector Requirements for File: Untitled
Using Injector(s) Rated at: 88 lb/hr
Engine Engine Engine Duty Pulse Width,
RPM Torque HP Cycle% milliseconds
2400 711 325 21.4 10.72
2500 721 343 22.7 10.91
2600 730 362 24.0 11.10
2700 740 380 25.4 11.29
2800 750 400 26.8 11.48
2900 759 419 28.2 11.68
3000 769 439 29.7 11.87
3100 779 460 31.2 12.07
3200 788 480 32.7 12.27
3300 798 501 34.3 12.47
3400 808 523 35.9 12.66
3500 817 545 37.5 12.87
3600 827 567 39.2 13.07
3700 832 586 40.8 13.22
3800 838 606 42.4 13.38
3900 844 627 44.0 13.53
4000 849 647 45.6 13.69
4100 855 668 47.3 13.85
4200 861 688 49.0 14.01
4300 866 709 50.8 14.17
4400 872 731 52.5 14.33
4500 878 752 54.3 14.49
4600 883 774 56.2 14.66
4700 889 796 58.0 14.82
4800 889 813 59.7 14.92
4900 889 830 61.3 15.02
5000 889 847 63.0 15.12
5100 889 864 64.7 15.22
5200 890 881 66.4 15.32
5300 890 898 68.1 15.42
5400 890 915 69.9 15.53
5500 890 932 71.7 15.63
5600 890 949 73.5 15.74
5700 881 956 74.7 15.74
5800 872 963 76.0 15.73
5900 863 969 77.3 15.73
6000 854 975 78.6 15.73
6100 844 981 79.9 15.73
6200 835 986 81.3 15.73
6300 826 991 82.6 15.73
6400 817 996 83.9 15.73
6500 808 1000 85.2 15.73
6600 792 995 85.2 15.50
6700 775 989 85.2 15.26
6800 759 982 85.2 15.04
6900 742 975 85.2 14.82
7000 714 951 85.2 14.61
7100 685 926 85.2 14.40
7200 657 900 85.2 14.20
7300 595 827 85.2 14.01
7400 534 752 85.2 13.82
7500 473 675 85.2 13.64
This is batch fire, twice per cycle with 88# injectors at 45 psi
Performance Trends Fuel Injector Calculator (C) 2002
Registered to: Jay4speed
Estimated Engine Torque and HP Curve
Fuel: Gasoline (sp gr .75 BSFC .60)
Fuel Injector Requirements for File: Untitled
Using Injector(s) Rated at: 88 lb/hr
Engine Engine Engine Duty Pulse Width,
RPM Torque HP Cycle% milliseconds
2400 711 325 21.4 5.36
2500 721 343 22.7 5.45
2600 730 362 24.0 5.55
2700 740 380 25.4 5.64
2800 750 400 26.8 5.74
2900 759 419 28.2 5.84
3000 769 439 29.7 5.94
3100 779 460 31.2 6.03
3200 788 480 32.7 6.13
3300 798 501 34.3 6.23
3400 808 523 35.9 6.33
3500 817 545 37.5 6.43
3600 827 567 39.2 6.53
3700 832 586 40.8 6.61
3800 838 606 42.4 6.69
3900 844 627 44.0 6.77
4000 849 647 45.6 6.85
4100 855 668 47.3 6.92
4200 861 688 49.0 7.00
4300 866 709 50.8 7.08
4400 872 731 52.5 7.17
4500 878 752 54.3 7.25
4600 883 774 56.2 7.33
4700 889 796 58.0 7.41
4800 889 813 59.7 7.46
4900 889 830 61.3 7.51
5000 889 847 63.0 7.56
5100 889 864 64.7 7.61
5200 890 881 66.4 7.66
5300 890 898 68.1 7.71
5400 890 915 69.9 7.76
5500 890 932 71.7 7.82
5600 890 949 73.5 7.87
5700 881 956 74.7 7.87
5800 872 963 76.0 7.87
5900 863 969 77.3 7.86
6000 854 975 78.6 7.86
6100 844 981 79.9 7.86
6200 835 986 81.3 7.86
6300 826 991 82.6 7.86
6400 817 996 83.9 7.87
6500 808 1000 85.2 7.87
6600 792 995 85.2 7.75
6700 775 989 85.2 7.63
6800 759 982 85.2 7.52
6900 742 975 85.2 7.41
7000 714 951 85.2 7.31
7100 685 926 85.2 7.20
7200 657 900 85.2 7.10
7300 595 827 85.2 7.00
7400 534 752 85.2 6.91
7500 473 675 85.2 6.82
I've been running these numbers with the peak HP at 6500 RPM, is that a true figure? If not let me know and I can rerun it.
Jay

[Unchained]

Also this is firing twice per crank revolution.
I see a discrepancy in your terminology.
Your "Performance trends fuel injection calculator" is referring to one cycle as being two crank revolutions or one complete intake-compression-power-exhaust cycle.
NO EFI programs fire the injectors twice per crank revolution.
That's what tripped me up. :idea:
Also the EFI programming types are,
Sequential, which times the injector firing to coincide with the intake stroke only. This amounts to one revolution of the crank firing four injectors.
Multipoint, which fires all the injectors everytime the crank goes through one revolution regardless of where the intake stroke is.
Bank to bank, which fires four injectors all at once per revolution and alternates to the next bank on the next revolution.
Sequential and bank to bank will require twice the injector pulse time as multipoint will. This is where injector sizing is going to be a factor.
Sequential is the only method that has any timing of the injector firing to coincide with the intake stroke.

[Outlaw]

here are a couple of sites I found while surfing
http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/MSDInjectorV1/main.html this is an MSD calculator
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/index.html
This guy has it all on his site. Stan Weiss WOW
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
lots of info here
http://www.haltech.com/downloads/e6xv303v2Windows_manual.pdf
I have read this about 10 times

[JAY4SPEED]

I see a discrepancy in your terminology.
Your "Performance trends fuel injection calculator" is referring to one cycle as being two crank revolutions or one complete intake-compression-power-exhaust cycle.
NO EFI programs fire the injectors twice per crank revolution.
That's what tripped me up. :idea:
Also the EFI programming types are,
Sequential, which times the injector firing to coincide with the intake stroke only. This amounts to one revolution of the crank firing four injectors.
Multipoint, which fires all the injectors everytime the crank goes through one revolution regardless of where the intake stroke is.
Bank to bank, which fires four injectors all at once per revolution and alternates to the next bank on the next revolution.
Sequential and bank to bank will require twice the injector pulse time as multipoint will. This is where injector sizing is going to be a factor.
Sequential is the only method that has any timing of the injector firing to coincide with the intake stroke.
Mark, you are correct, I used the incorrect term initially but have corrected myself in later posts.:)

[JAY4SPEED]

Is anyone familliar with the Big Stuff 3 system? Looks like a lot big HP is being made with their system. I've read where they allow COP ignition but I wonder if that is only with their LS1 version.
http://www.bigstuff3.com/index2.html

[JAY4SPEED]

here are a couple of sites I found while surfing
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/index.html
This guy has it all on his site. Stan Weiss WOW
I've never seen this one before. The fuel injector specs he has is extremely valuable info for me, thanks for the link!
Jay

[Unchained]

Texas 19 Mike uses that ECU and it's top of the line.
He knows an EFI guru who emails him the fuel maps and he just dumps it in the ECU and goes. :idea:

[Nubbs]

Have any of you guys with port injection set ups used 02 sensors in each primary tube to establish a/f of each cylinder? I was considering using this arrangement to correct a few lean cylinders i have due to the design of my intake manifold rather than reshape the intake runners and re-dyno the motor several times to get the a/f of each cylinder where it needs to be.
That is a good way to go. However, it will probably pretty expensive. It is more common to put a thermocouple in each port and monitor the temperature. Shoot me a pm if you want to talk more about efi setups. I may be able to help you out on some setup equipment.

[sanger rat]

Here is a little EFI porn for you guys. :) http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/PRI-Fuel-Injection-Flyer.jpg

[N281PONY]

Is anyone familliar with the Big Stuff 3 system? Looks like a lot big HP is being made with their system. I've read where they allow COP ignition but I wonder if that is only with their LS1 version.
http://www.bigstuff3.com/index2.html
It will also work on the Ford cop ignition. The software is a lot easier to use compared to the old FAST stuff but, I think it is a toss up between BS3 and XFI.

[texas-19]

Is anyone familliar with the Big Stuff 3 system? Looks like a lot big HP is being made with their system. I've read where they allow COP ignition but I wonder if that is only with their LS1 version.
http://www.bigstuff3.com/index2.html
I'm using BS3 and i'm very happy with it.
I know they make a unit that is plug and play for the LS1,don't see why you couldn't adapt it any Chevy COP ignition.
Also i read while using COP on the GM coils, the BS3 allows for coil saturation @ high rpm's,then @ lower rpm's it has a table where you can set the dwell time to avoid overheating the coils.That might be normal though for aftermarket ECU's,i'm not familiar with cop.
My tuner has tuned many engines that make 2500 HP +,using BS3 units,all turbocharged. ;)

[Unchained]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/PRI-Fuel-Injection-Flyer.jpg[/QUOTE]
These units have been well planned out.
They made the butterfly diameter be the appropriate size in relation to the flow so that there would be some resolution to throttle movement. It appears that some even have a primary butterfly circuit.
When bugcatcher units are retrofitted to efi they block the center butterfly off.
I've talked to some guys who run MFI Enderle's on the lake and they say the throttle is so touchy that it is hard to keep an even speed.