Speaking of S-chip

[never_fast_enuf]

Ultra mentioned he thought it was a terrible that Bush vetoed the democrats bill of a 35 Billion boondoggle expansion of this bill, instead, insisting on a 5 Billion increase.
Ultra, is THIS what you consider fiscal responsible spending?
After 12-year-old Graeme Frost delivered the Democrats' weekly radio address with a plea to Bush to sign the bill. A contributor to the conservative Web site Free Republic noted Graeme's enrollment in the private Park School and the sale of a smaller rowhouse on the Frosts' block for $485,000 this year and questioned whether the family should be taking advantage of the state program.
SNIP
The Frosts say the description of their family's circumstances now circulating is misleading. Halsey, they say, is a self-employed woodworker - he has no employees - while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm. Together, they say, they earn between $45,000 and $50,000 a year.
That would make the Frosts eligible for Maryland's Children's Health Program, which is open to families that earn no more than 300 percent of the federal poverty level, or $82,830 a year for a family of six.
The Frosts declined to show The Sun their 2006 income tax returns...
SNIP
Halsey Frost purchased the family home for $55,000 in 1990, according to city records, and refinanced in 2005, he says, to make improvements to accommodate the return of Graeme and Gemma from the hospital. The 1936 brick rowhouse, on a side street near Patterson Park, has an assessed value of $263,140.
Halsey Frost purchased a 1920 warehouse in East Baltimore for $160,000 in 1999, according to city records. It is assessed at $160,500. Frost says he is still paying off the mortgages on both properties.
The four Frost children depend on financial aid to attend private school, the Frosts say. In addition, they say, Gemma receives money from the city for special education made necessary by her injuries.
Lets see...this kids father owns his own business, including the building...lives in a 500K house...sends two of his children to a private school that costs 20K per student yet he is on public assistance for health care?
Ultra, THIS is what you wanted Bush to expand by 35 BILLION??? For once Bush decided to be fiscally responsible and you slam him for it. What gives?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Ultra mentioned he thought it was a terrible that Bush vetoed the democrats bill of a 35 Billion boondoggle expansion of this bill, instead, insisting on a 5 Billion increase.
Ultra, is THIS what you consider fiscal responsible spending?
After 12-year-old Graeme Frost delivered the Democrats' weekly radio address with a plea to Bush to sign the bill. A contributor to the conservative Web site Free Republic noted Graeme's enrollment in the private Park School and the sale of a smaller rowhouse on the Frosts' block for $485,000 this year and questioned whether the family should be taking advantage of the state program.
SNIP
The Frosts say the description of their family's circumstances now circulating is misleading. Halsey, they say, is a self-employed woodworker - he has no employees - while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm. Together, they say, they earn between $45,000 and $50,000 a year.
That would make the Frosts eligible for Maryland's Children's Health Program, which is open to families that earn no more than 300 percent of the federal poverty level, or $82,830 a year for a family of six.
The Frosts declined to show The Sun their 2006 income tax returns...
SNIP
Halsey Frost purchased the family home for $55,000 in 1990, according to city records, and refinanced in 2005, he says, to make improvements to accommodate the return of Graeme and Gemma from the hospital. The 1936 brick rowhouse, on a side street near Patterson Park, has an assessed value of $263,140.
Halsey Frost purchased a 1920 warehouse in East Baltimore for $160,000 in 1999, according to city records. It is assessed at $160,500. Frost says he is still paying off the mortgages on both properties.
The four Frost children depend on financial aid to attend private school, the Frosts say. In addition, they say, Gemma receives money from the city for special education made necessary by her injuries.
Lets see...this kids father owns his own business, including the building...lives in a 500K house...sends two of his children to a private school that costs 20K per student yet he is on public assistance for health care?
Ultra, THIS is what you wanted Bush to expand by 35 BILLION??? For once Bush decided to be fiscally responsible and you slam him for it. What gives?
I didn't slam the President I said I believed the veto was wrong, and I still do.
You were the one misquoting parts of what the bill was about, The bill removed the adults from the roles that Bush has allowed.

[never_fast_enuf]

I didn't slam the President I said I believed the veto was wrong, and I still do.
You were the one misquoting parts of what the bill was about, The bill removed the adults from the roles that Bush has allowed.
On one hand, you SAY you are for fiscal restraint yet on the other hand, you are for an expansion of a program that is already being abuses. You want this same program to now include the middle class. When does it become our own personal responsibility to ensure we are taking care of the most basic items in life...like our own healthcare?
What did I misrepresent? How can you say you are for fiscal responsibility yet be FOR this bill? Are you also for Hillary's 5K per baby plan? How about her 1K per person 401K plan? How about her socialized medicine plan Ultra? For that as well?
How in the hell are we going to pay for the socialization of America Ultra? Why are you for the socialization of America Ultra? Do you not understand that socialism has never ever worked?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

On one hand, you SAY you are for fiscal restraint yet on the other hand, you are for an expansion of a program that is already being abuses. You want this same program to now include the middle class. When does it become our own personal responsibility to ensure we are taking care of the most basic items in life...like our own healthcare?
What did I misrepresent? How can you say you are for fiscal responsibility yet be FOR this bill? Are you also for Hillary's 5K per baby plan? How about her 1K per person 401K plan? How about her socialized medicine plan Ultra? For that as well?
How in the hell are we going to pay for the socialization of America Ultra? Why are you for the socialization of America Ultra? Do you not understand that socialism has never ever worked?
God you are annoying! Like a gnat I'll respond later when can find a little more patience for your BS.

[never_fast_enuf]

God you are annoying! Like a gnat I'll respond later when can find a little more patience for your BS.
I know...details aren't your strong suit.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

On one hand, you SAY you are for fiscal restraint yet on the other hand, you are for an expansion of a program that is already being abuses. You want this same program to now include the middle class. When does it become our own personal responsibility to ensure we are taking care of the most basic items in life...like our own healthcare?
What did I misrepresent? How can you say you are for fiscal responsibility yet be FOR this bill? Are you also for Hillary's 5K per baby plan? How about her 1K per person 401K plan? How about her socialized medicine plan Ultra? For that as well?
How in the hell are we going to pay for the socialization of America Ultra? Why are you for the socialization of America Ultra? Do you not understand that socialism has never ever worked?
Maybe you aren't aware of the cost of medical insurance for an average family. $1,000 + a month, in many cases, is more than many families can afford. Basic items in life are food, a home, clothes and transportaion for the bread winners to get to and from their jobs. With todays inflated housing prices, any household making less than 50K, no doubt should find it hard to impossible to maintain the cost of health insurance. I don't see expanding the Federal child health care system, funded by an additional tobacco tax, as a bad thing.
You misrepresented that the recent health care bill was going to cover some 35 y/o's. The recent bill contained language to the contrary. Of course I'm not in favor of a $5000 bond or Federal 401K donation. From what I understand, none of the health care plans by any of the candidates, Republican or Democrat equate to socialized medicine. I am absolultly not for Govt run hospitals.
I'm not in to passing our debt onto my grandchildren. If this means paying a bit more than I will be happy to pay more. However, until I can clearly see that the Govt is operating efficiently, I will oppose income tax increases.
I'm not for socialization of America and you shouldn't make comments that have no factual bases. If you had your way, there would be no social programs from our Govt including SS and Medicare. So we do differ. Big F'n deal. You are in no position to preach to me or anyone else considering how little Republicans have done to control how my tax dollars have been spent in recent years.
I understand that the system is broken and it will take serious change to fix this. Sorry that I don't have much faith that Democrats or Republicans, by themselves have what it takes make is better. However, only time will tell.

[Boatcop]

I wonder where the figures are coming from for Insurance rates of $1,000 or more per month?
Granted, I haven't paid for private Insurance for several years, but when I did (for my son, age 10 to 22-in college) it ran about $70 bucks a month.
So I checked Current Blue Cross/Blue Shield PPO rates.
In California one plan I checked ran $140-$189 for Family with Younger Spouse age below 30. Up to $231-$306, age 50-54. (rates depend on location in CA) Rates can go a lot lower with higher deductible.
In AZ, coverage would be around $400. (Can be higher or lower, depending on deductible and specific plan)
There's something really wrong with the way a family spends their money, if they can't budget 3% ($82,500) to 5% (45,000) of their annual income for Health Insurance.

[never_fast_enuf]

You misrepresented that the recent health care bill was going to cover some 35 y/o's. The recent bill contained language to the contrary. .
25 year olds, not 35. Clearly, the 12 year old the dems used (exploited) for their rebuttal demonstrated, the program is already bloated and being used by people who have no business using it. Currently his family of four owns a 160K building he uses for his business, owns a 500K house they recently renovated (complete with granite countertops and glass fronted cabinets in the kitchen) and sends two of his kids to a private school that costs 20K per student. THAT is who is using the program today…and the dems want to expand it??????? They, like MANY others, made the personal choice NOT to fund private insurance. It's called personal responsibility.
The message from the democrats (once again, they lie because they can't compete when telling the truth) was that Bush wanted to eliminate coverage for the poor. Clearly, that 12 year old was not poor and clearly, all Bush did was veto the expansion of the program that would in effect become a new entitlement for the middle class. He didn't eliminate coverage for people like the family of the 12 year old who are already cheating the system. They are still free to cheat away…at our expense

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I didn't slam the President I said I believed the veto was wrong, and I still do.
You were the one misquoting parts of what the bill was about, The bill removed the adults from the roles that Bush has allowed.
Should a family of 4 (2 children) making $82,000 a year be eligible for federal medical insurance?
They ARE under the veto'd S-CHIP bill.

[Old Texan]

Maybe you aren't aware of the cost of medical insurance for an average family. $1,000 + a month, in many cases, is more than many families can afford. Basic items in life are food, a home, clothes and transportaion for the bread winners to get to and from their jobs. With todays inflated housing prices, any household making less than 50K, no doubt should find it hard to impossible to maintain the cost of health insurance. I don't see expanding the Federal child health care system, funded by an additional tobacco tax, as a bad thing.
You misrepresented that the recent health care bill was going to cover some 35 y/o's. The recent bill contained language to the contrary. Of course I'm not in favor of a $5000 bond or Federal 401K donation. From what I understand, none of the health care plans by any of the candidates, Republican or Democrat equate to socialized medicine. I am absolultly not for Govt run hospitals.
I'm not in to passing our debt onto my grandchildren. If this means paying a bit more than I will be happy to pay more. However, until I can clearly see that the Govt is operating efficiently, I will oppose income tax increases.
I'm not for socialization of America and you shouldn't make comments that have no factual bases. If you had your way, there would be no social programs from our Govt including SS and Medicare. So we do differ. Big F'n deal. You are in no position to preach to me or anyone else considering how little Republicans have done to control how my tax dollars have been spent in recent years.
I understand that the system is broken and it will take serious change to fix this. Sorry that I don't have much faith that Democrats or Republicans, by themselves have what it takes make is better. However, only time will tell.
On a serious note Ultra, you really need to sit down and take a chill pill. Hopefully you will eventually wake up from this strange fantasy running rampant in your mind. You spent several hours clearing your mind and this is your response...........Facts and reality elude you.
And you claim myself and others are F'd up living in paranoia and fear. Read your last paragraph there Bubba....if you can't ever see/face/admit to the causes you'll never see the solutions.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I wonder where the figures are coming from for Insurance rates of $1,000 or more per month?
Granted, I haven't paid for private Insurance for several years, but when I did (for my son, age 10 to 22-in college) it ran about $70 bucks a month.
So I checked Current Blue Cross/Blue Shield PPO rates.
In California one plan I checked ran $140-$189 for Family with Younger Spouse age below 30. Up to $231-$306, age 50-54. (rates depend on location in CA) Rates can go a lot lower with higher deductible.
In AZ, coverage would be around $400. (Can be higher or lower, depending on deductible and specific plan)
There's something really wrong with the way a family spends their money, if they can't budget 3% ($82,500) to 5% (45,000) of their annual income for Health Insurance.
I checked Blue Cross too. Family rate at age 40 $900 to $1059. There are all kinds of plans on the chart.
http://www.bluecrossca.com/member/noapplication/plansbenefits/individualsfamilies/medicalplansummaries/pw_a082352.pdf
I agree that there is something wrong with a family that can't buy their own coverage with an income of $82,000. Very wrong.
If a family can buy coverage for $500 a month, at least in So Cal, the family income has to be substantial to afford this.
From my understanding of the Child Heath Care Program, it is Federal assistance to State run programs. The States set many of the guidelines. Low income levels are different in every state. $50,000 a year in So Cal, won't buy a house, as you know. This income in many other places is comfortable. It's all relative
Should a family of 4 (2 children) making $82,000 a year be eligible for federal medical insurance?
They ARE under the veto'd S-CHIP bill.
Are they not covered now under the same bill? Will Bush's proposed 5 billion dollar increase, change any of this?
The only place I can find the $82,000 figure you refer to is in the heading of numerous articles found in Right Wing blog sites.
On a serious note Ultra, you really need to sit down and take a chill pill. Hopefully you will eventually wake up from this strange fantasy running rampant in your mind. You spent several hours clearing your mind and this is your response...........Facts and reality elude you.
And you claim myself and others are F'd up living in paranoia and fear. Read your last paragraph there Bubba....if you can't ever see/face/admit to the causes you'll never see the solutions.
Take a chill pill? Bubba?????
Come on Tex your little digs don't become you.
The last paragraph you refer to:
I understand that the system is broken and it will take serious change to fix this. Sorry that I don't have much faith that Democrats or Republicans, by themselves have what it takes make is better. However, only time will tell.
You know Tex, kinda like voting for the lesser of two evils that so many refer to.
A fantasy? It sounds real to me.

[AzMandella]

You know I have not posted in quite awhile and this is exactly why.I don't know about the rest of you but I made it a point to watch CSPAN after Bush veto'ed the bill just to see how the Dems would react.And just like clockwork they were just as stupid as usual.Every Rep. that spoke brought up fact and figures that didn't make sense in the bill and wanted to discuss it.But all every Dem could say was"Our President has shown he does not care about the children of this country".This is liberal stupidity at it's best.This bill was not for the poor children of this country,but rather a good try at starting socialized medicine in this country.It did nothing to get the illeagals out of the system,or reform the system we already have for the poor.It was just a bandaid that the libs wanted to place on top of the wound.Bush vetoed it for good reason.such as the fact that most probably anyone under the 82,500 dollar cap and employers with employes making under 82,500 would drop their health insurance posibly causing the insurance industry to potentialy go bankrupt.Also the fact that they chose to pick on one group in this country to pay for it."The Smokers". Are they to pay for everything.If you are going to have socialized medicine then socioty as a whole should pay for it.Not to mention the fact that congress spends millions a year to keep children from smoking but they were banking on there being 22 million new smokers over the years to pay for it.Sounds pretty hypicritcal to me.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Different views
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/21/opinion/main3286829.shtml?source=RSSattr=Opinion_3286829
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299129,00.html

[Old Texan]

You know I have not posted in quite awhile and this is exactly why.I don't know about the rest of you but I made it a point to watch CSPAN after Bush veto'ed the bill just to see how the Dems would react.And just like clockwork they were just as stupid as usual.Every Rep. that spoke brought up fact and figures that didn't make sense in the bill and wanted to discuss it.But all every Dem could say was"Our President has shown he does not care about the children of this country".This is liberal stupidity at it's best.This bill was not for the poor children of this country,but rather a good try at starting socialized medicine in this country.It did nothing to get the illeagals out of the system,or reform the system we already have for the poor.It was just a bandaid that the libs wanted to place on top of the wound.Bush vetoed it for good reason.such as the fact that most probably anyone under the 82,500 dollar cap and employers with employes making under 82,500 would drop their health insurance posibly causing the insurance industry to potentialy go bankrupt.Also the fact that they chose to pick on one group in this country to pay for it."The Smokers". Are they to pay for everything.If you are going to have socialized medicine then socioty as a whole should pay for it.Not to mention the fact that congress spends millions a year to keep children from smoking but they were banking on there being 22 million new smokers over the years to pay for it.Sounds pretty hypicritcal to me.
Good post. You see it pretty much like the major majority of us do.
Our old buddy Ultra is flailing wildly about in a "Liberal" daze as he is the only one that hasn't "substantiated" the $82 grand. He's trying to ignore me among others with questions pertaining to his "sanity". But he like the the suspended B472 ain't really a Lib (Denial:devil: ). Anyway sorry to drag you into our little dispute.
Again. Good post....:)

[Old Texan]

Come on Tex your little digs don't become you.
Gee

[never_fast_enuf]

What I can't understand is how Ultra bitches about republican spending over the last 6+ years but makes no mention at how much more the dems want to spend in every budgetary area...except for the protection of the US.
Seriously Ultra, do you NOT understand why people give you and other liberals so much shit?
If you are so upset with republican spending, which you claim, you should be furious with the democrats.
Based on your own comments, I am left believing that you are full of crap when it comes to claiming you are for fiscal restraint. Anyone who votes for a democrat can't be concerned at all with spending.

[riverfun]

While I dont agree with this plan, I for one can confirm the high price of health insurance, and hope that somebody comes up with a plan in the future. Boatcop sorry but you are wrong, I own my own business and it cost me(my company) 1042.00 per month for my family of four. This is for blue cross HMO not even a PPO. I am very afraid of what it will cost when Im 55 or 60 (Im only 38 now).

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I agree that there is something wrong with a family that can't buy their own coverage with an income of $82,000. Very wrong. .
Of the 40 million "uninsured" the left bandies about to justify govt. health care, 8 million of those make between 50k and 75K a year.
Of the 40 million "uninsured" the left bandies about to justify govt. health care, 7.5 million of those make between 75k and 100K a year.
It is not that they CANNOT buy insurance, it is because THEY CHOOSE NOT TO, for a variety of reasons.
Of the 40 million "uninsured" the left bandies about to justify govt. health care, remove ILLEGAL ALIENS.
Now you have a reasonably accurate number, far LOWER than 40 million.
Do you know where the socialists get their uninsured numbers?
Take the population, subtract all the people off the lists that are on govt health care (medicare/caid), subtract the people like me who have a group policy, and the remainder is the number they use.
They DO NOT dig up the people who have private individual plans and remove them.
They DO NOT remove the people who have enough money to "self-insure".
They DO NOT remove ILLEGALS.
From my understanding of the Child Heath Care Program, it is Federal assistance to State run programs. The States set many of the guidelines. Low income levels are different in every state. .
The poverty level income is set federally, not by the states. Alaska and Hawaii get higher numbers, about 10% higher.
2005 data, number of persons in household:
1 $ 9,570
2 12,830
3 16,090
4 19,350
5 22,610
6 25,870
7 29,130
8 32,390
single person, poverty level is $9,570/yr.
Family of 4, $19,350
Now, the New Jersey state guideline is (and is going to REMAIN) 350% of poverty or below.
That makes a single person, making 33,495 is eligible for S-CHIP. That's $15/hr wage.
Family of 4, $67,725 is eligible for S-CHIP. That's $30.78/hr single wage or 2 $15.39/hr wages.
It's middle-income welfare, and NEEDS VETO'D, over and over again, untill fixed.
I had insurance available to me at arround $1.25 above min wage, LOOOOOONG ago, and I took it. That was 9,900/yr in 1986. That was also a family of 2.

[OutCole'd]

While I dont agree with this plan, I for one can confirm the high price of health insurance, and hope that somebody comes up with a plan in the future. Boatcop sorry but you are wrong, I own my own business and it cost me(my company) 1042.00 per month for my family of four. This is for blue cross HMO not even a PPO. I am very afraid of what it will cost when Im 55 or 60 (Im only 38 now).
Yep, I totally agree. What makes it worse, is insurance companies raise their rates every year on the individual plans like I use, anywhere from 10% to I've seen as much as 25%. Then if you have any kind of health issues, no one will take you with a Pre-existing condition so you have to stay with the same company untill they raise your rates so much, you are screwed and with out insurance.
This may not be the best plan, but something has to be done.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

While I dont agree with this plan, I for one can confirm the high price of health insurance, and hope that somebody comes up with a plan in the future. Boatcop sorry but you are wrong, I own my own business and it cost me(my company) 1042.00 per month for my family of four. This is for blue cross HMO not even a PPO. I am very afraid of what it will cost when Im 55 or 60 (Im only 38 now).
Thanks for confirming what I stated earlier, regarding the cost of medical insurance for a family.
It's middle-income welfare, and NEEDS VETO'D, over and over again, untill fixed.
I had insurance available to me at arround $1.25 above min wage, LOOOOOONG ago, and I took it. That was 9,900/yr in 1986. That was also a family of 2.
Our office monthly health insurance premium exceeds 50K. It continues to increase at 12 to 15% a year.
The system is broken and needs repair. Doing nothing, to correct a problem, will solve nothing. Think of it similarly to how you view the war in Iraq.

[Old Texan]

Think of it similarly to how you view the war in Iraq.
Statements like this are where you lose your credibility..... You had some support and some momentum going but no, got to throw in the barb that lands you right back on your asse.....:devil:
One point at a time, remember the little spinning plate analogy earlier in the week. Gotta work on it bub.....or you'll keep gettin "Smoked".:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Statements like this are where you lose your credibility..... You had some support and some momentum going but no, got to throw in the barb that lands you right back on your asse.....:devil:
One point at a time, remember the little spinning plate analogy earlier in the week. Gotta work on it bub.....or you'll keep gettin "Smoked".:D
There you go again. No barb intend at all.
Doing nothing, to correct a problem, will solve nothing. Think of it similarly to how you view the war in Iraq.
Smokin and others view what we are doing in Iraq, as something that will help solve a problem. It's a chance we are taking to try to fix something that broken.
What was it you told me to do?? Take a chill pill. You too

[Old Texan]

There you go again. No barb intend at all.
Doing nothing, to correct a problem, will solve nothing. Think of it similarly to how you view the war in Iraq.
Smokin and others view what we are doing in Iraq, as something that will help solve a problem. It's a chance we are taking to try to fix something that broken.
What was it you told me to do?? Take a chill pill. You too
More understanding on why you keep referring to 6th grade events......a part of you still resides there.:devil:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

More understanding on why you keep referring to 6th grade events......a part of you still resides there.:devil:
Old Texan
Growing old, not up
This is becoming more obvious all the time.
Considering the health care system system is broken, something needs to be done to fix it. $1000 a month for insurance for a family of 4 is just a an example. Maybe a bit more tax on alcohol and the legalization, control and tax on pot would help as well.

[Schiada76]

Socialize medicine yup that'll fix it.
We'll have the same people that run the post office, IRS and DMV in charge of health care.:rolleyes:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Socialize medicine yup that'll fix it.
We'll have the same people that run the post office, IRS and DMV in charge of health care.:rolleyes:
Nobody said anything about socialized medicine. You have an opinion on how to fix the health care system or do you not give a sh*t because you have insurance?

[Old Texan]

Old Texan
Maybe a bit more tax on alcohol and the legalization, control and tax on pot would help as well.
Another well thought out plan to solve real life issues .......Why don't we unionize Meth Labs and tax the dues.:rolleyes:
At least my sarcasm is just that, you apparently believe yours.

[Old Texan]

Nobody said anything about socialized medicine. You have an opinion on how to fix the health care system or do you not give a sh*t because you have insurance?
Since S-Chip was originated by the Clinton adminstration and Hillary's proposed plan is coming, we are talking about socialized medicine.
Do you honestly think her plan is going to focus on lower insurance costs rather than push everyone into a national government run mess?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Another well thought out plan to solve real life issues .......Why don't we unionize Meth Labs and tax the dues.:rolleyes:
At least my sarcasm is just that, you apparently believe yours.
Comparing pot and meth is just plain stupid Tex. And yes I do believe that pot should be controlled and taxed by the Feds. Just like alcohol.
Your way, the "status quo", do nothing way, is doing what to help?
Since S-Chip was originated by the Clinton adminstration
That's all the reason you need, not to support it.

[Schiada76]

Nobody said anything about socialized medicine. You have an opinion on how to fix the health care system or do you not give a sh*t because you have insurance?
Oh my mistake, some idiot propsed taxing tobacco more and legalizing pot and taxing that too. Who would distribute the tax? The Algore?:idea:
No wait it would be the gubment which would make it SOCIALIZED.:rolleyes:

[Schiada76]

Comparing pot and meth is just plain stupid Tex. And yes I do believe that pot should be controlled and taxed by the Feds. Just like alcohol.
Your way, the "status quo", do nothing way, is doing what to help?
That's all the reason you need, not to support it.
Oh yeah taht would work, it's WEED anyone can grow it.:rolleyes:

[Old Texan]

Comparing pot and meth is just plain stupid Tex. And yes I do believe that pot should be controlled and taxed by the Feds. Just like alcohol.
Your way, the "status quo", do nothing way, is doing what to help?
That's all the reason you need, not to support it.
"Stupid" is thinking that legalizing pot and taxing it is going to solve health care costs.
Oh and it ain't about the Clinton's from a personal standpoint, it's about Mrs. Clinton's socialistic tendencies and wishes to introduce the country to government run socialized medicine, oh great "Defender of the Downtrodden".
There seems to be a trend here, everyday realism just slips further away from your thought process it seems.........:rolleyes:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Oh my mistake, some idiot propsed taxing tobacco more and legalizing pot and taxing that too.:
Worried about it cutting to heavily into your income?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Since S-Chip was originated by the Clinton adminstration and Hillary's proposed plan is coming, we are talking about socialized medicine.
Sounds like you have already conceded that Hilary is going to be the next President.
Come on share some of that great wisdom with us lesser folks. How are we going to fix the problem?

[Old Texan]

Oh yeah taht would work, it's WEED anyone can grow it.:rolleyes:
Maybe it will win him the next Nobel Peace Prize. It seems their standards are dropping fast enough. ;)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Maybe it will win him the next Nobel Peace Prize. It seems their standards are dropping fast enough. ;)
An American wins the Nobel prize for the first time in many years and you have nothing better to do than to make fun this, due to your narrow minded politics.
Don't you think it's time you allowed yourself to grow up just a little?

[Old Texan]

An American wins the Nobel prize for the first time in many years and you have nothing better to do than to make fun this, due to your narrow minded politics.
Don't you think it's time you allowed yourself to grow up just a little?
Then when they legalize pot, I could buy my own right over the counter with you grown-ups.
Oh boy, could I be just like you when I get big?:jawdrop:
Hey here's a deal for ya, I'll grow up when you wake up. How's that for personal growth.:devil:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Then when they legalize pot, I could buy my own right over the counter with you grown-ups.
Oh boy, could I be just like you when I get big?:jawdrop:
Hey here's a deal for ya, I'll grow up when you wake up. How's that for personal growth.:devil:
You win Tex. You're one up.

[eliminatedsprinter]

You win Tex. You're one up.
Who Hooo!!! All hail Tex...That's better than getting the Nobel Peace Prize these days.:D :D :D
Now Ultra, pay him his 1.5 million....:D ;)

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Here are the other out-of-controll states:
California 250%
Connecticut 300%
District of Columbia 300%
Hawaii 300%
Indiana 300%
Louisiana 300%
Maryland 300%
Massachusetts 300%
Minnesota 275%
Missouri 300%
New Hampshire 300%
New Jersey 350%
New York 400% (pending change)
Ohio 300%
Oklahoma 300%
Pennsylvania 300%
Rhode Island 250%
Vermont 300%
Washington 300%
North Carolina, Virginia and West Virginia have yet to submit proposals that would expand their programs to 300% of the poverty level
Here's page 1's fed. poverty level info so you can do the math:
2005 data, by number of persons in household:
1 $ 9,570
2 12,830
3 16,090
4 19,350
5 22,610
6 25,870
7 29,130
8 32,390
The info goes above family of 8, I just saw no reason to include it.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Who Hooo!!! All hail Tex...That's better than getting the Nobel Peace Prize these days.:D :D :D
Now Ultra, pay him his 1.5 million....:D ;)
I will if you can loan me a mil and a half :D :)

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Oh, and Arnold wants to increase California's limits, as a step toward California's "universal health care"/socialized medicine that HE wants to implement.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Here are the other out-of-controll states:
California 250%
Connecticut 300%
District of Columbia 300%
Hawaii 300%
Indiana 300%
Louisiana 300%
Maryland 300%
Massachusetts 300%
Minnesota 275%
Missouri 300%
New Hampshire 300%
New Jersey 350%
New York 400% (pending change)
Ohio 300%
Oklahoma 300%
Pennsylvania 300%
Rhode Island 250%
Vermont 300%
Washington 300%
North Carolina, Virginia and West Virginia have yet to submit proposals that would expand their programs to 300% of the poverty level
Here's page 1's fed. poverty level info so you can do the math:
2005 data, by number of persons in household:
1 $ 9,570
2 12,830
3 16,090
4 19,350
5 22,610
6 25,870
7 29,130
8 32,390
The info goes above family of 8, I just saw no reason to include it.
Smokin, a family of 4, where I come from, can't own a home with an income of $65,000, no way no how. 2 bedroom Apt in a decent neighborhood, $1400 to $1800 a month. If the family children are a boy and a girl and 3 bedrooms are needed, a 3 bedroom apt's costs even more. Small house rental, $2200 +
I understand how the figures look, but when attached to reality, they are not that far off, at least
where I live.
Oh, and Arnold wants to increase California's limits, as a step toward California's "universal health care"/socialized medicine that HE wants to implement.
In some areas, he should

[never_fast_enuf]

Sounds like you have already conceded that Hilary is going to be the next President.
Come on share some of that great wisdom with us lesser folks. How are we going to fix the problem?
Ultra, do you realize that the SCHIP expansion the liberals wanted would further crowd out the private insurers, thus making private insurance even MORE expensive, thus driving even MORE socialized plans like the one Hillary is pushing?
Is socialized medicine something you would like to see in the US?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Ultra, do you realize that the SCHIP expansion the liberals wanted would further crowd out the private insurers, thus making private insurance even MORE expensive, thus driving even MORE socialized plans like the one Hillary is pushing?
Is socialized medicine something you would like to see in the US?
No.
I would like to see all Americans have health care insurance. I do not want Govt run hospitals. I would like to see the Govt control what it spends on health care, not the chaos that is in place right now. Don't you realize that your tax dollars are already, in a wasteful poorly managed way, paying for health care for many Americans. Better management of how our taxes our spent is what I am in favor of.
BTW, did you see the recent Republican debate on the economy. Seems the Republicans so far have little to say beyond bashing each other. IMO, Rudy is by far the most sound. I had hoped Thompson would shine, but this wasn't the case. If it wasn't for Rudy's position on gay marriage and abortion, and some of the past issues in his private life, he would be a lock. A while ago I thought it might be Romney, but I don't see him going all the way.

[cdog]

Cobra for the wife, me and the kid is $650 a month until my wife get's a new job. That's our fun money gone. We'll do what we have to but I will say that family's get the shit end of the stick. Why not 1 big insurance plan nation wide to cover family's for $200 a month? Why is health insurance tied to employers?
We can throw Millions at africa to cure aids but not use our tax dollars to make our own lives better.
BTW. I'm a conservative and am tired to hell of the fuking idiots that are running our country into the ground representing business intrests not the people. Left and Right!
:mad:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Cobra for the wife, me and the kid is $650 a month until my wife get's a new job. That's our fun money gone. We'll do what we have to but I will say that family's get the shit end of the stick. Why not 1 big insurance plan nation wide to cover family's for $200 a month? Why is health insurance tied to employers?
We can throw Millions at africa to cure aids but not use our tax dollars to make our own lives better.
BTW. I'm a conservative and am tired to hell of the fuking idiots that are running our country into the ground representing business intrests not the people. Left and Right!
:mad:
Good post

[never_fast_enuf]

Do any of you actually think if the government "gives" you a nationwaide insurance policy, they will not dictate the coverage you receive?
Just look to our friends to the north for a glimps into what we would get.
You do NOT want the government controlling health care.

[cdog]

Do any of you actually think if the government "gives" you a nationwaide insurance policy, they will not dictate the coverage you receive?
Just look to our friends to the north for a glimps into what we would get.
You do NOT want the government controlling health care.
You're not looking at the big picture. Either way we're fuct. 1k a month in the future for private insurance or a national subsidized insurance plan. Health insurance Co's are not known for being accountable. They divide and concur. If that wasn’t the case we'd all access to congress's plan instead of our employers that some fresh out of college dim wit sold to your employer.
Lot's of rhetoric and rattling on this subject. The whole look at Canada is a cop out.
Tort reform cut foreign aid and subsidize a health plan. The power in #'s will bring down the cost of insurance and if someone wants better or their own they can. If you don't provide your own it can be taken care of through the IRS. The IRS always gets their money in the end.
You see this is a true capitalism at work. Let the 5 big Company's compete for a national plan. Each could focus on a specific age group in exchange for cheap rate and access to 100 MILLION new customers.

[never_fast_enuf]

Nobody said anything about socialized medicine. You have an opinion on how to fix the health care system or do you not give a sh*t because you have insurance?
All the democrats are.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

You're not looking at the big picture. Either way we're fuct. 1k a month in the future for private insurance or a national subsidized insurance plan. Health insurance Co's are not known for being accountable. They divide and concur. If that wasn’t the case we'd all access to congress's plan instead of our employers that some fresh out of college dim wit sold to your employer.
Lot's of rhetoric and rattling on this subject. The whole look at Canada is a cop out.
Tort reform cut foreign aid and subsidize a health plan. The power in #'s will bring down the cost of insurance and if someone wants better or their own they can. If you don't provide your own it can be taken care of through the IRS. The IRS always gets their money in the end.
You see this is a true capitalism at work. Let the 5 big Company's compete for a national plan. Each could focus on a specific age group in exchange for cheap rate and access to 100 MILLION new customers.
Another good post.
All the democrats are.
All Democrats are what?

[SmokinLowriderSS]

So ultra, since a 60,000 a year income won't buy a home, it is also incapable of buying health insurance?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

So ultra, since a 60,000 a year income won't buy a home, it is also incapable of buying health insurance?
It depends on a few things. Size of family, age, age of children and location among others Incapable, probably not if the family lives in a lower rent area. Spending $20,000 for rent/living, $5000 (minimum) for transportation, $10,000 for food and clothing, and other BS. another $10,000 to $12,000 to insure a family of four would be cutting it close.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

It depends on a few things. Size of family, age, age of children and location among others Incapable, probably not if the family lives in a lower rent area. Spending $20,000 for rent/living, $5000 (minimum) for transportation, $10,000 for food and clothing, and other BS. another $10,000 to $12,000 to insure a family of four would be cutting it close.
Family policy for me is me and however many dependants I can legally add, could be 1 (spouse), was 7 at one time (spouse, kids, steps), same cost.
This is from the insurance guy who figured wind damage was uninsurable?
I pay $228 a month for coverage, and don't clear 60K a year normally.
I pay 4x that in ex-payments.
I have, in the past paid for family insurance, $140 a month, while making $4.50 an hour (you do the math).
There is NO NEED for you, I, Rex, Rio, and 300 million other people to pay the insurance for a $60k/yr income.
Where's the stop point ultra?
60k this year?
70K next year?
100K in 2010?
150K in 2015?
200K in 2020?
Inability to separate buying a house from paying for medical insurance.
Kinda like MMGW and polution.

[cdog]

Family policy for me is me and however many dependants I can legally add, could be 1 (spouse), was 7 at one time (spouse, kids, steps), same cost.
This is from the insurance guy who figured wind damage was uninsurable?
I pay $228 a month for coverage, and don't clear 60K a year normally.
I pay 4x that in ex-payments.
I have, in the past paid for family insurance, $140 a month, while making $4.50 an hour (you do the math).
There is NO NEED for you, I, Rex, Rio, and 300 million other people to pay the insurance for a $60k/yr income.
Where's the stop point ultra?
60k this year?
70K next year?
100K in 2010?
150K in 2015?
200K in 2020?
Inability to separate buying a house from paying for medical insurance.
Kinda like MMGW and polution.
Where can I get a family plan for $140 a month? Seriously, I'm in need.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Where can I get a family plan for $140 a month? Seriously, I'm in need.
Sorry but you can't.
_________________________________________
Smokin,
I have no problem separating buying a house a buying medical insurance.
$60K where you live is good money. $60K here is not the same. Fact.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Where can I get a family plan for $140 a month? Seriously, I'm in need.
Blue cross/blue shield, 1987, at Henry's, an upper-crust clothing/accessories store, now long closed.
I did say (prvious post) I managed that a loooooong time ago. :D 2nd job.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Blue cross/blue shield, 1987, at Henry's, an upper-crust clothing/accessories store, now long closed.
I did say (prvious post) I managed that a loooooong time ago. :D 2nd job.
Spell check anyone????
Now can we leave the spelling clams alone? You're human too. :)

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Do you even know the actual argument on capitol hil as to WHY Bush veto's the S-CHIP funding bill congress passed ultra?
By the way, this notes your ignoring the :
There is NO NEED for you, I, Rex, Rio, and 300 million other people to pay the insurance for a $60k/yr income.
Where's the stop point ultra?
60k this year?
70K next year?
100K in 2010?
150K in 2015?
200K in 2020?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Do you even know the actual argument on capitol hil as to WHY Bush veto's the S-CHIP funding bill congress passed ultra?
By the way, this notes your ignoring the :
No doubt you believe that you are the only one with the ability to understand or know what the argument is about. I do know that Bush is willing to increase S-Chip funding by a smaller amount than that in the bill.
Ignoring a stupid question should be expected. $200k in 2020.
Quality health insurance needs to be made available and affordable to all Americans. It currently is not. The do nothing, status quo approach will do nothing to move us in this direction.

[never_fast_enuf]

[QUOTE=ULTRA26 # 1;2845064]Quality health insurance needs to be made available and affordable to all Americans. It currently is not. The do nothing, status quo approach will do nothing to move us in this direction.
[QUOTE]
And Government run health care is also NOT the answer.
What is YOUR definition of "quality and affordable"? Those are the fuzzy words that will destroy our health care.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

[QUOTE=ULTRA26 # 1;2845064]Quality health insurance needs to be made available and affordable to all Americans. It currently is not. The do nothing, status quo approach will do nothing to move us in this direction.
[QUOTE]
And Government run health care is also NOT the answer.
What is YOUR definition of "quality and affordable"? Those are the fuzzy words that will destroy our health care.
Affordable means exactly that. Quality means health care not dictated by an insurance adjuster.
As someone else here questioned, why has health care become the responsibility employers? If you follow the logic of many of the folks here, you and I paying for the employer provided health care in the form of higher prices.

[never_fast_enuf]

[QUOTE=never_fast_enuf;2845107][QUOTE=ULTRA26 # 1;2845064]Quality health insurance needs to be made available and affordable to all Americans. It currently is not. The do nothing, status quo approach will do nothing to move us in this direction.
Affordable means exactly that. Quality means health care not dictated by an insurance adjuster.
As someone else here questioned, why has health care become the responsibility employers? If you follow the logic of many of the folks here, you and I paying for the employer provided health care in the form of higher prices.
Health care isn't the responsibility of employers and it isn't the responsibility of the government. It is the responsibility of individuals.
You are going to have to do better than "affordable means affordable"
Give me a number. See, this is the hard part about using fuzzy feel good words.
As for higher prices, inflation is in check and employers figured out a long time ago that offering things like insurance was good business for them and helped attract the best employee's. As the costs rise, more of that cost is being pushed to the employee, not to the cost of goods sold by employer.

[cdog]

[QUOTE=ULTRA26 # 1;2845179][QUOTE=never_fast_enuf;2845107]
Health care isn't the responsibility of employers and it isn't the responsibility of the government. It is the responsibility of individuals.
You are going to have to do better than "affordable means affordable"
Give me a number. See, this is the hard part about using fuzzy feel good words.
As for higher prices, inflation is in check and employers figured out a long time ago that offering things like insurance was good business for them and helped attract the best employee's. As the costs rise, more of that cost is being pushed to the employee, not to the cost of goods sold by employer.
See my previous post. I'm not sure if you know much about the process. Employer plans are based on how many people pay into the system. More people = better for cheaper. I’m not advocating for the government to take over health care, But for better oversight with a reasonable individual and family plan. $200 a month for a family is reasonable. With 100 million people in the system this can easily be accomplished.
This issue will bury the republicans. The have nots are increasing and will have their hands out for more and more. We can nip this in the bud now. Or let the Dems fix it by tax, tax, tax and give it out for free. Don’t be fooled by the spin doctors.
Consider the fact that we pay 15 BILLION in foreign aid.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-02-19-foreignaid.htm

[asch]

I'm not even gonna complain about the cost of our insurance. Just last week we renewed our policy with Cigna and even with it increasing by $336 per year, it's still low IMO.
My wife and I are covered through her employer.
Medical coverage per month: $45 (Edit: $90 per month, $45 bi-weekly)
Office visit, ANY kind of surgery or specialist visit: $20 co-pay.
ER visit or urgent care: $75 co-pay
Dental per month: $16
Office visit: $15 co-pay.
Yearly total coverage: $1272 as of last week. Before that $936
BTW, we're covered up to 5 children at this rate.:D
At the same time, I DO NOT support the idea of socializing health insurance.
It should remain private. If an employer chooses to offer it as a benefit, fine. Their choice. I'll be damned If I (we) have to subsidize others' coverage.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Health care isn't the responsibility of employers and it isn't the responsibility of the government. It is the responsibility of individuals.
You are going to have to do better than "affordable means affordable"
Give me a number. See, this is the hard part about using fuzzy feel good words.
As for higher prices, inflation is in check and employers figured out a long time ago that offering things like insurance was good business for them and helped attract the best employee's. As the costs rise, more of that cost is being pushed to the employee, not to the cost of goods sold by employer.
To your first comment my response is No Shit.
Affordable is an amount far less than a $1000 per month for a family of 4.
Next time leave the sarcasm out.
Once again you fail to acknowledge that ultimately employer provided health care is paid for by the consumer, you and I. I can tell you from experience that your last sentence in incorrect. Most employers have a cost sharing agreement with their employees. When the agreement is 70% / 30% the employees pays 30% of his/her health premiums. As the cost of coverage increases by 10 to 20% a year, the employer bears the bulk of these increases. After 5 years at 20% per year, the employers health insurance cost has increased by 70%, the employees by 30%. If you don't believe that this 70% increase is passed onto the consumers, you don't have a great understanding of the process. Something needs to be done to fix the problem. Status quo, won't work. The Republicans need to start seriously addressing this issue.
See my previous post. I'm not sure if you know much about the process. Employer plans are based on how many people pay into the system. More people = better for cheaper. I’m not advocating for the government to take over health care, But for better oversight with a reasonable individual and family plan. $200 a month for a family is reasonable. With 100 million people in the system this can easily be accomplished.
This issue will bury the republicans. The have nots are increasing and will have their hands out for more and more. We can nip this in the bud now. Or let the Dems fix it by tax, tax, tax and give it out for free. Don’t be fooled by the spin doctors.
Consider the fact that we pay 15 BILLION in foreign aid.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-02-19-foreignaid.htm
I completely agree.

[Old Texan]

Affordable is an amount far less than a $1000 per month for a family of 4.
The Republicans need to start seriously addressing this issue.
Affordable is what the market will bear and what the employer and employees decide they can afford. There are a variety of plans out there.
How is it all of a sudden soley a Republican responsibility? There are 2 sides of the aisle involved here. Or is this an insinuation the Republicans aren't serious unless they follow the Dem lead towards a socialized system?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Affordable is what the market will bear and what the employer and employees decide they can afford. There are a variety of plans out there.
How is it all of a sudden soley a Republican responsibility? There are 2 sides of the aisle involved here. Or is this an insinuation the Republicans aren't serious unless they follow the Dem lead towards a socialized system?
Tex, there are more and more employers popping up the all the time that don't include health care in the employee programs. Why??? Because it is cost prohibitive. Maybe a profit driven health insurance system is not the answer or does this type of concept fall under a socialist premise?
It's not solely a Republican issue. The Democrats are talking about doing something that most Republicans don't approve of. It's up to Republicans to come with a plan that will insure that all Americans have heath care, if the Dems plan is unacceptable.

[cdog]

Tex, there are more and more employers popping up the all the time that don't include health care in the employee programs. Why??? Because it is cost prohibitive. Maybe a profit driven health insurance system is not the answer or does this type of concept fall under a socialist premise?
It's not solely a Republican issue. The Democrats are talking about doing something that most Republicans don't approve of. It's up to Republicans to come with a plan that will insure that all Americans have heath care, if the Dems plan is unacceptable.
Good post.
Some of your guy's are drunk on the kool aid. Sit back and point fingers or be part of a solution. If nothing is done by the republicans, prepare to be poked in the butt with socialized health care.
Free market my ass. Where are my choices? Arm, Leg or the whole Torso? It's like fuel for my cars. Pay the going price or walk. We can do better.

[never_fast_enuf]

Since when is it the governments job to ensure we all have "affordable" health care...what ever that means?
FSA's MSA's etc are the way to get it done. I get so pissed off when I see families like the one the dems trotted out. That guy owns his own business, owns the 170K building he works out of, owns a 500K home, sends two kids to a 20K a year per pupil private school and I am supposed to pay for his freaking insurance?
Give me a break. When we start holding people accountable for the personal decisions they make, I MIGHT be more willing to listen. By freaking insurance instead of that big screen TV…buy insurance before buying the new 24 inch wheels for the car....you get the idea.
Until then, anything the gubment does is going to be a fiscal nightmare that rips more of my hard earned money out my pocket so some asshole like I described can cheat the system.
Sorry...I ain't buying it.

[Old Texan]

Good post.
Some of your guy's are drunk on the kool aid. Sit back and point fingers or be part of a solution. If nothing is done by the republicans, prepare to be poked in the butt with socialized health care.
Free market my ass. Where are my choices? Arm, Leg or the whole Torso? It's like fuel for my cars. Pay the going price or walk. We can do better.
Yeah, you got it figured out, it's the finger pointers drinking kool aid, another worn out analogy.:rolleyes: I quite frankly haven't seen either side of the aisle do their job and work on a common solution.
The Dems will accept nothing from the Republicans short of a socialized system because that's what they have always pushed out when the topic has risen up. The Clintons, Ted K, and others looking out for the poor I suppose. Any Republican plan is harshly rejected and then it goes back full circle. Bill Frist couldn't take the pressure and resigned. You'd have thought a doctor could have at least had some idea. John Edwards damn sure knows the legal end of working the system, why doesn't he return some of his great experience at solving the issue, returning a little something to the American people he loves so much after all he helped drive up costs while lining his pockets? Ron Paul has been on Capitol Hill for a while now and seems to be saying all the right things about Iraq, but I haven't heard the Doc's opinion on healthcare. Matter of fact I had coffee with his brother a couple weeks back and he didn't know if the Doc had a plan either.
What workable plan has either side come up with? Apparently none as we are still witnessing the problem tossed around congress like a "hot 'tater".
Therein lies the problem, neither side wants to go on the limb in fear of pissing off the people and losing votes. Hey maybe Soros has an answer?
Make it affordable you say? Take the profit out and make it government run Ultra says? Well tell us how 'cause we are all listening.
If affordable means cheaper than we will surely need to provide more checks and balances to avoid abuse. We'll need cheaper drugs, don't count on our political pals here though 'cause they are gonna keep driving up drug company costs by tacking on regulations. Drugs sold in the US cost more because the American public pays for the R&D costs while the companies sell cheaper overseas. What's that about? The Clintons manipulated the costs of Flu vaccine until only 1 or 2 labs even make the stuff, thus shortages in high demand years. This is where Ultra's plan fails by taking the capitalistic aspect out of the drug market. Get rid of regualtions except on quality. Make the drug companies compete world wide to spread costs lowering prices domestically.
Where's the plans to spread the costs out over groups? Let's get individually owned businesses to be able to form organizations allowing group plans with larger memebership. It's all based on the odds of being able to spread cost over a larger paying base ain't it?
Give businesses tax breaks and incentives to offer better plans rather than bare bones coverage. All I hear lately is removing the tax breaks for the rich, that's not going to help health care costs by any means.

[cdog]

I guess you got it all figured out. Stick your head in the sand and hope it all comes out ok at the end. Blame, stick, point! Business as usual.
Why in the hell I need an employer to get decent health insurance is beyond me. I should be able to pay for it on my own. But when a private plan runs $650-$1,000 a month it's a fuking joke. This is where we're at today. Your ideology before common sense is clouding your thinking. So go and rant about the free market and so on. Pray and hope you don't get laid off. When Hitlery is elected and she mandates government Heath Care that she'll tax you for, you can stew in your ideological panties.:rolleyes:
Adapt or go the way of the dodo bird.
BTW. I’m for a government insurance plan like an employers plan. You still have to pay, only the #’s insured and paying will bring down the cost. That’s not free government insurance.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Sorry...I ain't buying it.
Oh well.
I guess you got it all figured out. Stick your head in the sand and hope it all comes out ok at the end. Blame, stick, point! Business as usual.
Why in the hell I need an employer to get decent health insurance is beyond me. I should be able to pay for it on my own. But when a private plan runs $650-$1,000 a month it's a fuking joke. This is where we're at today. Your ideology before common sense is clouding your thinking. So go and rant about the free market and so on. Pray and hope you don't get laid off. When Hitlery is elected and she mandates government Heath Care that she'll tax you for, you can stew in your ideological panties.:rolleyes:
Adapt or go the way of the dodo bird.
BTW. I’m for a government insurance plan like an employers plan. You still have to pay, only the #’s insured and paying will bring down the cost. That’s not free government insurance.
Thank you sir.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

No doubt you believe that you are the only one with the ability to understand or know what the argument is about. I do know that Bush is willing to increase S-Chip funding by a smaller amount than that in the bill.
As usual, you cannot even be prompted into educating yourself.
Teddy Kennedy wants to increase funding of the program by $50 million, to help pay these states with 300 & 400% coverages, right up into MIDDLE INCOME NON-POOR, and they already only manage to cover 60 to 70% of the "poor kids" that they are supposed to cover 100%.
Bush is willing to increase it $5 million, and wants 95% coverage FOR THE POOR, BEFORE ANY EXPANSION is authorized.
Definitely "Bush hates the poor children" isn't it. :rolleyes:
Again:
Where's the stop point ultra?
60k this year?
70K next year?
100K in 2010?
150K in 2015?
200K in 2020?
Higher??????
Give me a number. See, this is the hard part about using fuzzy feel good words.
He can't nfe, I already asked for a number, this makes 3 times.
I can tell you from experience that your last sentence in incorrect. Most employers have a cost sharing agreement with their employees. When the agreement is 70% / 30% the employees pays 30% of his/her health premiums. As the cost of coverage increases by 10 to 20% a year, the employer bears the bulk of these increases. After 5 years at 20% per year, the employers health insurance cost has increased by 70%, the employees by 30%. If you don't believe that this 70% increase is passed onto the consumers, you don't have a great understanding of the process.
It is YOU who has little understanding of the process ultra. I also advise math classes for you.
$500 a month insurance, split 70/30
Employer pays 350, employee pays 150
Raise 20%
$600, paid 420/180
Raise 20%
$720, paid 504/216
Raise 20%
$864, paid 604.80/259.20
Raise 20%
1036.80, paid 725.76/311.04
Raise 20%
1244.16, paid 870.91/373.25
After 5 years at 20% per year, the employers health insurance cost has increased by 70%, the employees by 30%.
WRONG!!!!!!
Remedial math class for you ultra, go now.
No more using percentages untill you get beyond add/subtract level.
After 4 years of 20% increases, employer cost has DOUBLED, while employee cost has DOUBLED. (that is an increase of 100% b y the way.)
Year 5 just continues the trend.

[never_fast_enuf]

BTW. I’m for a government insurance plan like an employers plan. You still have to pay, only the #’s insured and paying will bring down the cost. That’s not free government insurance.
You aren't naive enough to think that if the government dictates the plan ,they won't totally screw it up are you?
Show me one properly run government plan that isn't totally corrupt. You do NOT want the government running health care in any way shape or form. I don't care if it is republicans or democrats. BOTH will totally screw it up.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

As usual, you cannot even be prompted into educating yourself.
Teddy Kennedy wants to increase funding of the program by $50 million, to help pay these states with 300 & 400% coverages, right up into MIDDLE INCOME NON-POOR, and they already only manage to cover 60 to 70% of the "poor kids" that they are supposed to cover 100%.
Bush is willing to increase it $5 million, and wants 95% coverage FOR THE POOR, BEFORE ANY EXPANSION is authorized.
Definitely "Bush hates the poor children" isn't it. :rolleyes:
Again:
Where's the stop point ultra?
60k this year?
70K next year?
100K in 2010?
150K in 2015?
200K in 2020?
Higher??????
He can't nfe, I already asked for a number, this makes 3 times.
It is YOU who has little understanding of the process ultra. I also advise math classes for you.
$500 a month insurance, split 70/30
Employer pays 350, employee pays 150
Raise 20%
$600, paid 420/180
Raise 20%
$720, paid 504/216
Raise 20%
$864, paid 604.80/259.20
Raise 20%
1036.80, paid 725.76/311.04
Raise 20%
1244.16, paid 870.91/373.25
WRONG!!!!!!
Remedial math class for you ultra, go now.
No more using percentages untill you get beyond add/subtract level.
After 4 years of 20% increases, employer cost has DOUBLED, while employee cost has DOUBLED. (that is an increase of 100% b y the way.)
Year 5 just continues the trend.
There was a current S-Chip program in place until 9/30.The recent bill requested an additional 35 mil over 5 years and not 50 mil. There is language in the bill that adds current restrictions to the age of the recipients and the states basically continue to manage the eligibility and other specifics of the program. The bill would add $0.61 in tax per pack of cigarettes to help fund the S-Chip program and yes, the bill that Bush veto's had heavy opposition from tobacco companies.
Your ramblng Smokin. Don't fool yourself about my ability to be educated.
Well below $1000 per month isn't valid number? You must have had a long WEEKEND.
The health care system is in serious need of repair. You have any ideas on how to fix it or is this rambling BS all you have?

[Boatcop]

Teddy Kennedy wants to increase funding of the program by $50 million, to help pay these states with 300 & 400% coverages, right up into MIDDLE INCOME NON-POOR, and they already only manage to cover 60 to 70% of the "poor kids" that they are supposed to cover 100%.
Bush is willing to increase it $5 million, and wants 95% coverage FOR THE POOR, BEFORE ANY EXPANSION is authorized.
I have to disagree with you here.
It's about 70% of currently eligible children who ARE NOT signed up. If the Govt wants to cover a majority of the "estimated" 10 million children without health care, send their families a letter or send a case worker to their house and SIGN THEM UP.
And for the remaining 3 million kids, how many of those are illegal?
Before we throw out more of our tax dollars to bring middle class kids onto the public dole, let's get the 7 million poor kids signed up that are now eligible to be covered, but aren't.

[Old Texan]

I guess you got it all figured out. Stick your head in the sand and hope it all comes out ok at the end. Blame, stick, point! Business as usual.
Why in the hell I need an employer to get decent health insurance is beyond me. I should be able to pay for it on my own. But when a private plan runs $650-$1,000 a month it's a fuking joke. This is where we're at today. Your ideology before common sense is clouding your thinking. So go and rant about the free market and so on. Pray and hope you don't get laid off. When Hitlery is elected and she mandates government Heath Care that she'll tax you for, you can stew in your ideological panties.:rolleyes:
Adapt or go the way of the dodo bird.
BTW. I’m for a government insurance plan like an employers plan. You still have to pay, only the #’s insured and paying will bring down the cost. That’s not free government insurance.
So buy your own. You got all the answers. You got all the catch phrases. Let your government put together a plan and then you put it in place. Pay for your family and 2-3 other families across town and smile your asse off.
Frankly I ain't following along to well with where your path leads. I don't worry much about laid off. Worst case scenario I liquidate and go play golf mixed in with a lot of fishing. I've got boats for all seasons so to speak and survival instincts galore.
Why not you tell me how you'd do it smart guy.....and tell me what I've said that puts my head in the sand????? Or maybe you just don't understand capitalism, is that it????:confused:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

So buy your own. You got all the answers. You got all the catch phrases. Let your government put together a plan and then you put it in place. Pay for your family and 2-3 other families across town and smile your asse off.
Frankly I ain't following along to well with where your path leads. I don't worry much about laid off. Worst case scenario I liquidate and go play golf mixed in with a lot of fishing. I've got boats for all seasons so to speak and survival instincts galore.
Why not you tell me how you'd do it smart guy.....and tell me what I've said that puts my head in the sand????? Or maybe you just don't understand capitalism, is that it????:confused:
Capitalism isn't working with regard to health care, plain and simple. When millions of Americans have to go without due to the cost, the system is broken. We're not talking about cars, tvs or other trivial sh*t. Health care, IMO, doesn't fall into the same rhelm. The man stated clearly what he is in favor of. Do you have something better to bring to the table?
Just curious Tex, you are in your 50's. What are you paying for medical insurance?

[cdog]

You aren't naive enough to think that if the government dictates the plan ,they won't totally screw it up are you?
Show me one properly run government plan that isn't totally corrupt. You do NOT want the government running health care in any way shape or form. I don't care if it is republicans or democrats. BOTH will totally screw it up.
You don't get it. It's coming anyway. Do you want to get fuked with a finger or the whole hand?
A Government sponsored insurance plan is not free health care!!!!!!!!:mad:

[cdog]

So buy your own. You got all the answers. You got all the catch phrases. Let your government put together a plan and then you put it in place. Pay for your family and 2-3 other families across town and smile your asse off.
Frankly I ain't following along to well with where your path leads. I don't worry much about laid off. Worst case scenario I liquidate and go play golf mixed in with a lot of fishing. I've got boats for all seasons so to speak and survival instincts galore.
Why not you tell me how you'd do it smart guy.....and tell me what I've said that puts my head in the sand????? Or maybe you just don't understand capitalism, is that it????:confused:
I heard is said today" A fools plan is better than a genius that does nothing".
S chip is shit. I agree. Nothing should be free. Health insurance needs to be more affordable. Because of their cost people do without. When shit happens the rest of us pay through the ass because of their poor choices.
I was told by my CPA that over 65% of BK’s are over health care costs. We all pay for this now anyway. Understand that in this brand of capitalism the risk premium is spread to all of us in higher cost because of those who skip on the bill.
I’m not going to make this personal. I boat, fish and hunt as you do. I’m one of the few who can live off the land if need be. I see how our country takes care of others better than it takes care of its own and I’m pissed about it. You should be this fired up over the Billions spent on illegals and foreign aid. I know we can do better.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I heard is said today" A fools plan is better than a genius that does nothing".
S chip is shit. I agree. Nothing should be free. Health insurance needs to be more affordable. Because of their cost people do without. When shit happens the rest of us pay through the ass because of their poor choices.
I was told by my CPA that over 65% of BK’s are over health care costs. We all pay for this now anyway. Understand that in this brand of capitalism the risk premium is spread to all of us in higher cost because of those who skip on the bill.
I’m not going to make this personal. I boat, fish and hunt as you do. I’m one of the few who can live off the land if need be. I see how our country takes care of others better than it takes care of its own and I’m pissed about it. You should be this fired up over the Billions spent on illegals and foreign aid. I know we can do better.
Very good post. I agree, we can do better.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Capitalism isn't working with regard to health care, plain and simple. When millions of Americans have to go without due to the cost, the system broken.
You haven't checked jolly olde England's government health insurance lately, have you?
Currently, damn few Brittish can GET a dentist, since almost all quit taking govt. insured patients, because the pay is too low. (article in my local paper, TODAY)
Currently, NURSES in England are threatening to quit EN MASSE. Why? Lousy pay. They want to earn a decent living, and can't. (On my radio this past week on the way to work)
Since you claim our capitolist system is a failure, and the various govt. run Socialist systems are failures, just exactly WHAT do you reccomend now?
So, $1,000 a month is too high for medical insurance?
Is $800?
$600?
$400?
$200?
Just who pays $1,000 a month that YOU know?
I'd wager not a soul.:idea:
Do tell me of a SINGLE government program that is run without huge ammounts of waste, at times bordering on fraud.
Do tell me of a SINGLE well-run US Federal burocracy.
Now, do tell me WHY you want this horribly innefficient, wasteful entity to CONTROLL YOUR HEALTH CARE!

[cdog]

You haven't checked jolly olde England's government health insurance lately, have you?
Currently, damn few Brittish can GET a dentist, since almost all quit taking govt. insured patients, because the pay is too low. (article in my local paper, TODAY)
Currently, NURSES in England are threatening to quit EN MASSE. Why? Lousy pay. They want to earn a decent living, and can't. (On my radio this past week on the way to work)
Since you claim our capitolist system is a failure, and the various govt. run Socialist systems are failures, just exactly WHAT do you reccomend now?
So, $1,000 a month is too high for medical insurance?
Is $800?
$600?
$400?
$200?
Just who pays $1,000 a month that YOU know?
I'd wager not a soul.:idea:
Do tell me of a SINGLE government program that is run without huge ammounts of waste, at times bordering on fraud.
Do tell me of a SINGLE well-run US Federal burocracy.
Now, do tell me WHY you want this horribly innefficient, wasteful entity to CONTROLL YOUR HEALTH CARE!
I read that also. I've meet and sold homes to Nurses from the UK who came here for better pay.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

You haven't checked jolly olde England's government health insurance lately, have you?
Currently, damn few Brittish can GET a dentist, since almost all quit taking govt. insured patients, because the pay is too low. (article in my local paper, TODAY)
Currently, NURSES in England are threatening to quit EN MASSE. Why? Lousy pay. They want to earn a decent living, and can't. (On my radio this past week on the way to work)
Since you claim our capitolist system is a failure, and the various govt. run Socialist systems are failures, just exactly WHAT do you reccomend now?
So, $1,000 a month is too high for medical insurance?
Is $800?
$600?
$400?
$200?
Just who pays $1,000 a month that YOU know?
I'd wager not a soul.:idea:
Do tell me of a SINGLE government program that is run without huge ammounts of waste, at times bordering on fraud.
Do tell me of a SINGLE well-run US Federal burocracy.
Now, do tell me WHY you want this horribly innefficient, wasteful entity to CONTROLL YOUR HEALTH CARE!
Here's one Smokin
While I dont agree with this plan, I for one can confirm the high price of health insurance, and hope that somebody comes up with a plan in the future. Boatcop sorry but you are wrong, I own my own business and it cost me(my company) 1042.00 per month for my family of four. This is for blue cross HMO not even a PPO. I am very afraid of what it will cost when Im 55 or 60 (Im only 38 now).
I personally know numerous individuals and families paying over a $1,000 monthly for health.
insurance. Don't make any wagers on this because you will lose.
Noone is disputing that Govt programs are run without mass amounts of waste.
I don't think I could say it any better than Cdog,
"You don't get it. It's coming anyway. Do you want to get fuked with a finger or the whole hand?"

[AzMandella]

Let's get some of this straight.First of all the S-Chip bill was presented to the floors of the house and senate by the Democrats.For months the Republicans kept asking the Majority leaders to make time to sit down and discuss this bill that they had problems with.The House and Senate leaders refused to give it any floor time.They new it would pass both the House and Senate because they have the majority in both.So after they passed it Bush vetoed it (FOR GOOD REASON!!)
First of all this bill was not just for the poor children of this country but an attempt to push their first steps at starting socialized medicine.If it wasn't,the cap would be much lower than 82,500.My wife and I don't make this much together and we could afford to pay for our own insurance if we had to.The cap is a joke.Not to mention people over the age of 18 qualified.Now how is this for the children? Secondly something that the dems just couldn't get thru their head was the fact that lot's of employers who had employes that fell in this bracket and people who payed for their own insurance that were in this bracket would drop their private insurance and overload the system and bankrupt the insurance companies.As a buisness owner I know I would.Why the hell should I pay out $200,000 a year if the govmt. is going to pay for it.
Third. Why the hell should one group of people in this country be targeted to pay for this.The smokers.What if these same dems decided they were going to put a 1000.00 registration fee on everyone who owns a boat.I guarantee all you who are whining about this bill not passing would be crying like a raped bitch.Why not go after alcohol?There is more spent on alcoholic induced medical bills than ciggarets by a long shot.But hell no.No politician in his right would do that since their all a bunch oof alkies.Hell if they put a.61 cent tax on a bottle of booze it would cost Teddy K 25,000 a year.The bottom line is if we are going to have socialize medicine for the poor(notice it is called SOCIALIZED MEDICINE) Should be payed for by socioty as a whole.
Now let's look at why the system we have now that doesn't work.Oh yeah it doesn't work because we have too many illeagals using it.And do you think the liberals are going to do a damned thing to get them off it and out of our country.Hell no let's put another system in effect that has no provision to keep them out of it.and when it doesn't work we can put another bandaid on top of the others.
And last but not least.When are we as a nation going to stand up and demand that people in this country get off their lazy asses and start being responsible for their lifes decisions and set their priorities straight.I'm sure alot of them could afford their own insurance if they would quit sinking $40,000 in their lowriders,plasma TV's and dropping $100.00 a week at the strip clubs and bars.I for one believe in hard work and determination.This country was founded on the premise that with hard work and determination you can be whatever you want.There was a great president who oce said."don't ask what you country can do dor you.ask what you can do for your country."And yes he was a Democrat.

[cdog]

Azmandella. Good Post. I agree. S chip was a pawn to make the R's look bad. I'm disappointed in the R's for not doing something about this when they had the majority.
Consider back when our countrymen had balls we started a revolution over Tea.

[AzMandella]

Azmandella. Good Post. I agree. S chip was a pawn to make the R's look bad. I'm disappointed in the R's for not doing something about this when they had the majority.
Consider back when our countrymen had balls we started a revolution over Tea.
Your right.I'm sure our forefathers(Hamilton,Jackson,Washington,Franklin,e tc.)Are rolling over in their own puke in their graves looking at how we have twisted the constitution and the direction they had set for this country.

[Old Texan]

You should be this fired up over the Billions spent on illegals and foreign aid.
You've apparently not been around here too often.......I want to dredge the Rio Grande and fill it with gators. And foreign aid should be a trade off for mineral rights......

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Let's get some of this straight.First of all the S-Chip bill was presented to the floors of the house and senate by the Democrats.For months the Republicans kept asking the Majority leaders to make time to sit down and discuss this bill that they had problems with.The House and Senate leaders refused to give it any floor time.They new it would pass both the House and Senate because they have the majority in both.So after they passed it Bush vetoed it (FOR GOOD REASON!!)
First of all this bill was not just for the poor children of this country but an attempt to push their first steps at starting socialized medicine.If it wasn't,the cap would be much lower than 82,500.My wife and I don't make this much together and we could afford to pay for our own insurance if we had to.The cap is a joke.Not to mention people over the age of 18 qualified.Now how is this for the children? Secondly something that the dems just couldn't get thru their head was the fact that lot's of employers who had employes that fell in this bracket and people who payed for their own insurance that were in this bracket would drop their private insurance and overload the system and bankrupt the insurance companies.As a buisness owner I know I would.Why the hell should I pay out $200,000 a year if the govmt. is going to pay for it.
Third. Why the hell should one group of people in this country be targeted to pay for this.The smokers.What if these same dems decided they were going to put a 1000.00 registration fee on everyone who owns a boat.I guarantee all you who are whining about this bill not passing would be crying like a raped bitch.Why not go after alcohol?There is more spent on alcoholic induced medical bills than ciggarets by a long shot.But hell no.No politician in his right would do that since their all a bunch oof alkies.Hell if they put a.61 cent tax on a bottle of booze it would cost Teddy K 25,000 a year.The bottom line is if we are going to have socialize medicine for the poor(notice it is called SOCIALIZED MEDICINE) Should be payed for by socioty as a whole.
Now let's look at why the system we have now that doesn't work.Oh yeah it doesn't work because we have too many illeagals using it.And do you think the liberals are going to do a damned thing to get them off it and out of our country.Hell no let's put another system in effect that has no provision to keep them out of it.and when it doesn't work we can put another bandaid on top of the others.
And last but not least.When are we as a nation going to stand up and demand that people in this country get off their lazy asses and start being responsible for their lifes decisions and set their priorities straight.I'm sure alot of them could afford their own insurance if they would quit sinking $40,000 in their lowriders,plasma TV's and dropping $100.00 a week at the strip clubs and bars.I for one believe in hard work and determination.This country was founded on the premise that with hard work and determination you can be whatever you want.There was a great president who oce said."don't ask what you country can do dor you.ask what you can do for your country."And yes he was a Democrat.
Whether you believe the S-Chip is a good or bad thing is up to you. However, if your going to discuss specifics of the issue you should probabaly be accurate.
The standards of eligibility for S-Chip are established by individual States. Your comment suggesting the S-Chip cap for you and wife as being $82,500 is wrong.
The S-Chip program has been in place for 10 years and has clearly done some good. The recent bill was a renewal of an existing program and not a new one. I for one don't have a problem bumping the tax on tobacco or alcohol. S-Chip has flaws, without doubt. The question is, do we deny this coverage to those who need it based on anticipated and not actual abuse?
If this Country doesn't come up with a comprehensive and good quality national, non-profit insurance plan, we face more of the so called free S-Chip type pans in our future.
I for one don't view Americans as a bunch of low rider driving, plasma TV buying lazy focks. While there will always be a few abusers, I don't see this as the norm. The problem with health care costs/insurance goes way deeper than the few abusers of the system.
Your comment about liberals and and illegals is also flawed. Whether you like or or not, if we gathered up all of the illegals and dumped back from where they came, the US economy would suffer terribly. An estimated 8 million unfilled jobs is a huge problem. It's a very complex problem. Stop the flow of course.
It is my opinion that if Tobacco was taken out out the mix, the S-Bill renewal would have passed.

[Old Texan]

Whether you believe the S-Chip is a good or bad thing is up to you. However, if your going to discuss specifics of the issue you should probabaly be accurate.
The standards of eligibility for S-Chip are established by individual States. Your comment suggesting the S-Chip cap for you and wife as being $82,500 is wrong.
The S-Chip program has been in place for 10 years and has clearly done some good. The recent bill was a renewal of an existing program and not a new one. I for one don't have a problem bumping the tax on tobacco or alcohol. S-Chip has flaws, without doubt. The question is, do we deny this coverage to those who need it based on anticipated and not actual abuse?
If this Country doesn't come up with a comprehensive and good quality national, non-profit insurance plan, we face more of the so called free S-Chip type pans in our future.
I for one don't view Americans as a bunch of low rider driving, plasma TV buying lazy focks. While there will always be a few abusers, I don't see this as the norm. The problem with health care costs/insurance goes way deeper than the few abusers of the system.
Your comment about liberals and and illegals is also flawed. Whether you like or or not, if we gathered up all of the illegals and dumped back from where they came, the US economy would suffer terribly. An estimated 8 million unfilled jobs is a huge problem. It's a very complex problem. Stop the flow of course.
It is my opinion that if Tobacco was taken out out the mix, the S-Bill renewal would have passed.
2 questions:
What do you do with the illegals already here that are helping bankrupt our present system with their abuse?
What does tobacco have to do with the bill being vetoed? I percieve the bill being vetoed on it's content not it's proposed funding.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

2 questions:
What do you do with the illegals already here that are helping bankrupt our present system with their abuse?
What does tobacco have to do with the bill being vetoed? I percieve the bill being vetoed on it's content not it's proposed funding.
I suggest that you look more closely at those who are already here with regard to paying taxes, SS etc. There are 8 million jobs, that we know of being done by illegals. I have read that the majority are paying taxes.
With regard to the others, they need to be sent home.
The tobacco industry lobbied long and hard against the the S-Chip renewal with the cig tax. Technically the process isn't over

[Moneypitt]

I suggest that you look more closely at those who are already here with regard to paying taxes, SS etc. There are 8 million jobs, that we know of being done by illegals. I have read that the majority are paying taxes.
With regard to the others, they need to be sent home.
The tobacco industry lobbied long and hard against the the S-Chip renewal with the cig tax. Technically the process isn't over
As a smoker I feel threated again by these Rob Riener types that think smokers should pay for everything. If that is the case then people that don't like my second hand smoke can be the ones that go outside. I'm paying, so screw them......And secondly, the illegals that are paying payroll taxes have stolen SOMEONES SS #....How would you like to be the one that has your taxes audited because your reported income and the IRS's information don't match?.......Although the horror stories about how hard it is to convince the IRS they are wrong are probably way over stated.........What is it about the word "alien" that changes the word "illegal" when they are used together?......Get legal or get out, and do it now........I feel our economy would recover very quickly if ALL the illegals were rounded up and sent to Irag to help those people with their economy.........MP

[ULTRA26 # 1]

As a smoker I feel threated again by these Rob Riener types that think smokers should pay for everything. If that is the case then people that don't like my second hand smoke can be the ones that go outside. I'm paying, so screw them......And secondly, the illegals that are paying payroll taxes have stolen SOMEONES SS #....How would you like to be the one that has your taxes audited because your reported income and the IRS's information don't match?.......Although the horror stories about how hard it is to convince the IRS they are wrong are probably way over stated.........What is it about the word "alien" that changes the word "illegal" when they are used together?......Get legal or get out, and do it now........I feel our economy would recover very quickly if ALL the illegals were rounded up and sent to Irag to help those people with their economy.........MP
Rounding some of them up and sending them to Iraq, is a great idea.:D
BTW, I was a smoker for 40 years, until a few months ago. I voted yes on frist cigarette tax proposition.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

As a smoker I feel threated again by these Rob Riener types that think smokers should pay for everything. If that is the case then people that don't like my second hand smoke can be the ones that go outside. I'm paying, so screw them......And secondly, the illegals that are paying payroll taxes have stolen SOMEONES SS #....How would you like to be the one that has your taxes audited because your reported income and the IRS's information don't match?.......Although the horror stories about how hard it is to convince the IRS they are wrong are probably way over stated.........What is it about the word "alien" that changes the word "illegal" when they are used together?......Get legal or get out, and do it now........I feel our economy would recover very quickly if ALL the illegals were rounded up and sent to Irag to help those people with their economy.........MP
Rounding some of them up and sending them to Iraq, is a great idea.:D
I was a smoker for 40 years, until a few months ago. I voted yes on frist cigarette tax proposition.
BTW, quiting was a piece of cake, if you ever want to. CHANTIX works

[Old Texan]

I suggest that you look more closely at those who are already here with regard to paying taxes, SS etc. There are 8 million jobs, that we know of being done by illegals. I have read that the majority are paying taxes. With regard to the others, they need to be sent home.
The tobacco industry lobbied long and hard against the the S-Chip renewal with the cig tax. Technically the process isn't over
I'd be very interested in seeing the stats on how many file tax returns.
Point is, most of these folks may pay in but never file so I'd think the money goes into a general fund which is good if it's being used wisely. As mentioned a lot have false ID's. Another interesting stat that no one can do but estimate.
I do know that many counties are being bankrupted by the illegals using services they have no right to use. My plan has always been that anyone that hires these people, with or w/o documentation be made to pay say $.50 per hour paid with a matching $.50 by the worker into a fund to build a completely separate social support system to cover health, disability, retirement, education, etc. Plus show some guts and charge a tax on every dollar sent back home. Further this with the governments of origin kicking in a payment for each one of their countrymen in the USA and maybe we can start "affording" these "vital" workers.
If we can't throw them out, at least make them pay for the priviledge of being allowed to stay. They will never assimilate into our population as the bulk of them "hate" the American people and the American way.
I'm not buying into the essential need for 8 million illegals. If we need workers from across the border we can invite guest workers on "our" terms not theirs.
And to hell with them having to have their families here. If they are here to work, they don't need them here to overburden our system. Let the country of origin take care of 'em.
If any of the Pres candidates gets the guts to handle the illegal issue realistically the way it needs to be handled, ie- get out as many as possible, make the rest pay for their keep, and start getting hard on the employers, than I would guarantee that candidate victory. And a lot of this health care issue would take care of itself.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I'd be very interested in seeing the stats on how many file tax returns.
Point is, most of these folks may pay in but never file so I'd think the money goes into a general fund which is good if it's being used wisely. As mentioned a lot have false ID's. Another interesting stat that no one can do but estimate.
I do know that many counties are being bankrupted by the illegals using services they have no right to use. My plan has always been that anyone that hires these people, with or w/o documentation be made to pay say $.50 per hour paid with a matching $.50 by the worker into a fund to build a completely separate social support system to cover health, disability, retirement, education, etc. Plus show some guts and charge a tax on every dollar sent back home. Further this with the governments of origin kicking in a payment for each one of their countrymen in the USA and maybe we can start "affording" these "vital" workers.
If we can't throw them out, at least make them pay for the priviledge of being allowed to stay. They will never assimilate into our population as the bulk of them "hate" the American people and the American way.
I'm not buying into the essential need for 8 million illegals. If we need workers from across the border we can invite guest workers on "our" terms not theirs.
And to hell with them having to have their families here. If they are here to work, they don't need them here to overburden our system. Let the country of origin take care of 'em.
If any of the Pres candidates gets the guts to handle the illegal issue realistically the way it needs to be handled, ie- get out as many as possible, make the rest pay for their keep, and start getting hard on the employers, than I would guarantee that candidate victory. And a lot of this health care issue would take care of itself.
You make some very good points.
Many illegals are paying taxes using tax id, or I-10 numbers and not SSN's.

[eliminatedsprinter]

The problems we have in health care do not have political solutions, Congress can no more "fix" health care than they can fix the weather. Oh wait a minute,,,,, half of congress curently thinks they can fix the weather.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[eliminatedsprinter]

You make some very good points.
Many illegals are paying taxes using tax id, or I-10 numbers and not SSN's.
Why should anyone care if illegals are paying taxes. The last time a cop gave me a speeding ticket, he didn't care one bit weather I paid my taxes or not...

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Why should anyone care if illegals are paying taxes. The last time a cop gave me a speeding ticket, he didn't care one bit weather I paid my taxes or not...
I'm not they even had taxes the last time I got a speeding ticket :2purples:
The vote to override Bush's veto fell short by 13 votes.

[eliminatedsprinter]

The vote to override Bush's veto fell short by 13 votes.
Good, it was a seriously flawed bill.
It is too bad it took an opposition party controlled Congress to help President Bush finally find his veto pen. It's a shame it was missing when the stupid No Child Left Behind act and that idiotic Steel Worker Protection bill came accross his desk. Not to mention all those earmark laden budgets he signed....

[riverfun]

Ok, first off as stated before I pay over 1000.00 per month for my family of 4 through my own family business (read straight out of our pocket) I also have a uncle in law in florida who is a sole proprietor (sp?) and he pays 1020.00 per month for himself and wife, they are both 59. This is my fear, I make a good living right now but as any business owner can tell you it can all go away due to some turn of events. I do not argee with this plan but I'm sorry we need to do something! Those of you that are union or state, county etc. great for you, but remember its the business owners that make this economy go round. It is getting harder and harder to accept that insurance cost are going up 8 to 12% every year, when I dont see my coverage or anything else for that matter getting better by any %.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Good, it was a seriously flawed bill. It is too bad it took an opposition party controlled Congress to help President Bush finally find his veto pen. It's a shame it was missing when the stupid No Child Left Behind act and that idiotic Steel Worker Protection bill came accross his desk. Not to mention all those earmark laden budgets he signed....
Partisan politics at it's finest :D
Ok, first off as stated before I pay over 1000.00 per month for my family of 4 through my own family business (read straight out of our pocket) I also have a uncle in law in florida who is a sole proprietor (sp?) and he pays 1020.00 per month for himself and wife, they are both 59. This is my fear, I make a good living right now but as any business owner can tell you it can all go away due to some turn of events. I do not argee with this plan but I'm sorry we need to do something! Those of you that are union or state, county etc. great for you, but remember its the business owners that make this economy go round. It is getting harder and harder to accept that insurance cost are going up 8 to 12% every year, when I dont see my coverage or anything else for that matter getting better by any %.
I have a friend, single 60 years old. He pays $1300 a month. for PPO coverage. While the S-Chip bill was flawed, as many of you pointed out, something needs to change, and soon. Congress and the President need to come up with something that's they can agree on. I haven't changed my position BTW, if given the chance, I would have voted for the expansion of the S-Chip program, flaws and all.
The sky rocketing cost of health care is one of the biggest problems this Country faces. The smaller the group the higher the cost. Maybe a group pool for those who are self employed or those who are small business owners. Personally I like the idea of a National, Non-Profit health care insurer. It makes more sense than anything else that has been presented.

[Boatcop]

The sky rocketing cost of health care is one of the biggest problems this Country faces. The smaller the group the higher the cost. Maybe a group pool for those who are self employed or those who are small business owners. Personally I like the idea of a National, Non-Profit health care insurer. It makes more sense than anything else that has been presented.
The problem with SCHIP is that it treats all as one. The REAL poor would be covered for free (for them). The middle class ($60-$82,000) would also be covered for free (for them).
If they would provide subsidized payment assistance, with a sliding scale based on income, it would be less expensive for the taxpayers, and not make us pay 100% of health care costs for people who make as much, if not more, than most of us.
Or make Health Insurance 100% tax deductible and not based on the % of AGI as other medical expenses. Or better yet, make a percentage of Health Insurance payments a tax credit. The REAL poor wouldn't pay anything, but the middle class "poor" would at least be contributing something.
Or one more zinger. Take away the Earned Income Credit for families on Federal Funded Health Care. Why in the hell should we pay thousands of dollars to every family on EIC, when they neither paid any taxes, nor "Earned" that income, and then provide Health care for them to boot?
I used to do my daughter's taxes. Several years ago they qualified for the EIC (married, 3 kids) Military (E-4) income. It really irked me that while I was paying many many thousands in income taxes, they not only got back everything they put in, but an additional $3,200 they didn't pay.
Take those EIC payments and put them in a pool for Health Insurance for the poor.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

The problem with SCHIP is that it treats all as one. The REAL poor would be covered for free (for them). The middle class ($60-$82,000) would also be covered for free (for them).
If they would provide subsidized payment assistance, with a sliding scale based on income, it would be less expensive for the taxpayers, and not make us pay 100% of health care costs for people who make as much, if not more, than most of us.
Or make Health Insurance 100% tax deductible and not based on the % of AGI as other medical expenses. Or better yet, make a percentage of Health Insurance payments a tax credit. The REAL poor wouldn't pay anything, but the middle class "poor" would at least be contributing something.
Or one more zinger. Take away the Earned Income Credit for families on Federal Funded Health Care. Why in the hell should we pay thousands of dollars to every family on EIC, when they neither paid any taxes, nor "Earned" that income, and then provide Health care for them to boot?
I used to do my daughter's taxes. Several years ago they qualified for the EIC (married, 3 kids) Military (E-4) income. It really irked me that while I was paying many many thousands in income taxes, they not only got back everything they put in, but an additional $3,200 they didn't pay.
Take those EIC payments and put them in a pool for Health Insurance for the poor.
Alan,
Can we clear up one thing. There is no $82,000.

[Boatcop]

Alan,
Can we clear up one thing. There is no $82,000.
New York is proposing raising their SCHIP income level to 400% of the Federal Poverty level. 2007 (http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/07poverty.shtml) figures show that to be $20,650 for a family of 4.
$20,650 x 400% = $82,600.
Let's go with the current 300% for a family of 6.
$27,610 x 300% = $82,830
I may not be a math or economics major, but I do know how to use a calculator.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

New York is proposing raising their SCHIP income level to 400% of the Federal Poverty level. 2007 (http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/07poverty.shtml) figures show that to be $20,650 for a family of 4.
$20,650 x 400% = $82,600.
Let's go with the current 300% for a family of 6.
$27,610 x 300% = $82,830
I may not be a math or economics major, but I do know how to use a calculator.
New York's attempt at 400% failed. Maybe we should go will a familly of 10 and go even higher.:)
We both know that all of the banter of $82,000 was based on a famiily of 4 in New York, which clearly isn't true.
I was in favor of renewing the S-Chip program, increases and all. But it matters not as the veto override attempt failed by 13 votes. Go President Bush. :mad:
How about removing the internet sales tax loophole and let States like CA and NY fund their own S-Chip program. I completely agree with removing EIC.

[Schiada76]

Well there ultra you're sure on the right track, we'll get the gubment to fix health care.
Hopefully they'll do better than the post office, the DMV, the IRS, the war on poverty, the war on drugs, welfare, education etc. etc. etc.:rolleyes:

[eliminatedsprinter]

Well there ultra you're sure on the right track, we'll get the gubment to fix health care.
Hopefully they'll do better than the post office, the DMV, the IRS, the war on poverty, the war on drugs, welfare, education etc. etc. etc.:rolleyes:
There is no chance they will do as well as the post office. It is my OPINION that well intentioned government involvement has caused most of what is wrong with health care in our country. As a professional that has worked for the nations largest government health care agency for 25 years I could write a book on why the government should be less involved in health care, rather than more involved (at any level).
Unfortunatly, there just isn't enough time in the day for me to have that discussion.
However, one thing that I find interesting is the fact that you never hear the obvious role that the alphabet soup of accrediting agencies (esp J.C.A.H.O.) and the racket they run (in cooperation with the insurance cos) in driving up the cost in health care in our nation. No hospital director would ever publicly complain about JCAHO for fear that his hospital would get a snap inspection the next day and it would no doubt cost a fortune for his hospital to be found to be "in compliance" years later.....
P.S. JCAHO is a straight up racket, that was origionally started by the government, in the 1960s, (it is considered private now) for the best of reasons, to help "solve" a very real "crisis"....

[eliminatedsprinter]

Well there ultra you're sure on the right track, we'll get the gubment to fix health care.
Hopefully they'll do better than the post office, the DMV, the IRS, the war on poverty, the war on drugs, welfare, education etc. etc. etc.:rolleyes:
There is no chance they will do as well as the post office. It is my OPINION that well intentioned government involvement has caused most of what is wrong with health care in our country. As a professional that has worked for the nations largest government health care agency for 25 years I could write a book on why the government should be less involved in health care, rather than more involved (at any level).
Unfortunatly, there just isn't enough time in the day for me to have that discussion.
However, one thing that I find interesting is the fact that we never hear about the obvious role that the alphabet soup of accrediting agencies (esp J.C.A.H.O.) and the racket they run (in cooperation with the insurance cos) plays in driving up the cost of health care in our nation. No hospital director would ever publicly complain about JCAHO for fear that his hospital would get a snap inspection the next day and it would no doubt cost a fortune for his hospital to be found to be "in compliance" years later.....All hospitals spend a fortune attempting to stay "in compliance" with these rackets even though 90% of what they require has nothing to do with clinical care and their inspectors are not even qualified to evaluate clinical care.
P.S. JCAHO is a straight up racket, that was origionally started by the government, in the 1960s, (it is considered private now) for the best of reasons, to help "solve" a very real "crisis"....

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Well there ultra you're sure on the right track, we'll get the gubment to fix health care.
Hopefully they'll do better than the post office, the DMV, the IRS, the war on poverty, the war on drugs, welfare, education etc. etc. etc.:rolleyes:
While none of these systems are flawless, they are all working. (except the war on drugs which only focuses on street drugs.)
IMO, a flawed system is better than no system.

[eliminatedsprinter]

IMO, a flawed system is better than no system.
Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is much worse. The history of government and other (ie insurance co) beaurocratic involement in health care has not been good...........

[Schiada76]

While none of these systems are flawless, they are all working. (except the war on drugs which only focuses on street drugs.)
IMO, a flawed system is better than no system.
Umm isn't that EXACTLY what we have now?
I'll take private sector flawed over govt meddling flawed any day.:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is much worse. The history of government and other (ie insurance co) beaurocratic involement in health care has not been good...........
I understand this. However, through Govt maybe the only way for the people to be heard.
Umm isn't that EXACTLY what we have now?
I'll take private sector flawed over govt meddling flawed any day.:D
If you were one of the millions that don't have or can't afford coverage, you no doubt would feel differently.

[Old Texan]

If you were one of the millions that don't have or can't afford coverage, you no doubt would feel differently.
A lot of those without coverage may be part of the root cause why it's so expensive. The socalled "charity" hospitals that admit many without insurance and submit them a bill are rarely paid. This money must come from someone and it comes from the taxpayers directly though increased taxes and indirectly through higher rates at the hospital and doctors' office. Higher rates, higher insurance.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

A lot of those without coverage may be part of the root cause why it's so expensive. The socalled "charity" hospitals that admit many without insurance and submit them a bill are rarely paid. This money must come from someone and it comes from the taxpayers directly though increased taxes and indirectly through higher rates at the hospital and doctors' office. Higher rates, higher insurance.
I agree, The main reason that I believe all Americans must be covereed.

[eliminatedsprinter]

I understand this. However, through Govt maybe the only way for the people to be heard.
If you were one of the millions that don't have or can't afford coverage, you no doubt would feel differently.
What health care problems will hearing from the people solve???
You are absolutly correct. If I was not in my profession I might not have coverage and I would no doubt "feel differently" about this. I also wouldn't be in a position know any better.;)
P.S. On an interesting side note. In Amish country the local doctors and hospitals give them (the Amish) discounts. This is because the Amish don't have health insurance and they always pay for their health care up front and in cash. Imagine the nerve of those greedy Amish accepting such favortism, just because they work hard and pay their bills...

[Schiada76]

I understand this. However, through Govt maybe the only way for the people to be heard.
If you were one of the millions that don't have or can't afford coverage, you no doubt would feel differently.
They can go to any county facility and get treated any time they want.:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

They can go to any county facility and get treated any time they want.:D
And when they do who do you think pays??

[Schiada76]

And when they do who do you think pays??
Exactly!
So why do we need to pay more for something that is already available and will fck it up for everyone except the wealthy who will pay for quality care outside of the system?
I see a lot of oh poor pitiful me here when people with the calber of boats that you and Cdog own are complaining about how hard it is to pay for their health insurance.
Not bashing here, either one of you.

[cdog]

Exactly!
So why do we need to pay more for something that is already available and will fck it up for everyone except the wealthy who will pay for quality care outside of the system?
I see a lot of oh poor pitiful me here when people with the calber of boats that you and Cdog own are complaining about how hard it is to pay for their health insurance.
Not bashing here, either one of you.
I dont pay any tax's anyway. Don't ya know I'm rich!:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Exactly!
So why do we need to pay more for something that is already available and will fck it up for everyone except the wealthy who will pay for quality care outside of the system?
I see a lot of oh poor pitiful me here when people with the calber of boats that you and Cdog own are complaining about how hard it is to pay for their health insurance.
Not bashing here, either one of you.
Schiada,
I have great coverage and I don't pay a dime for it. If I had to could I pay for my own? Of course. My position about this issue isn't about me.

[Schiada76]

Schiada,
I have great coverage and I don't pay a dime for it. If I had to could I pay for my own? Of course. My position about this issue isn't about me.
So adopt a family that can't afford ins. and stop dipping into my pocket.
Liberal hypocrite.:rolleyes:

[Schiada76]

I dont pay any tax's anyway. Don't ya know I'm rich!:D
:D :D