No More Custom Motors!!!!!!!!!!

[Not So Fast]

Did anybody read the doom & gloom article in this months Hot Boat about Californias passage of another BS regulation bill concerning emissions which theysay will kill the custom motor biz. God, will they ever leave us alone:( Seeme to me that the total of hot boats in comparision to cars when it comes to emissions would be miniscule and hardly worth the effort, anybody got the facts or percentages??:confused: NSF

[rvrtoy]

They might be better served by passing some sort of ordinance banning semi trucks that throw black smoke from the stacks everytime they accelerate.

[hkunz]

No need for facts, that would just cloud the issue. In the lib/demo/whacko/communist agenda - since you don't fish for a living, you don't need a boat, so you should pay extra if you want one. Aspiring to higher goals is a sin against the proletariat. You should be content to live in urban government project apartment and drink your cheap vodka, Komerad.
Using emissions is just one more way to accomplish that goal.

[Baja Big Dog]

They might be better served by passing some sort of ordinance banning semi trucks that throw black smoke from the stacks everytime they accelerate.
They have...

[GHT]

So, that just means Cali is the only state, and all other states will allow Custom motors? California is hardly the Federal Gov. I would recommend not boating in Cali..
Are my statements true, or am I off base?
Don

[Racey]

Don't register your boat in CA, then you dont have to worry about the stupid inspection. Most boaters i know register in AZ

[Big Warlock]

No need for facts, that would just cloud the issue. In the lib/demo/whacko/communist agenda - since you don't fish for a living, you don't need a boat, so you should pay extra if you want one. Aspiring to higher goals is a sin against the proletariat. You should be content to live in urban government project apartment and drink your cheap vodka, Komerad.
Using emissions is just one more way to accomplish that goal.
Well said!

[Big Warlock]

Don't register your boat in CA, then you dont have to worry about the stupid inspection. Most boaters i know register in AZ
And that is the answer! In addition, you can then bring your boat to Cali every now and again and run your boat!!

[phebus]

What California does will set the stage for all the other states to follow.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

What California does will set the stage for all the other states to follow.
Yep. The EPA is using CA as the test case for broader federal regulations. Bob Brown touched on this in his column a few months back...

[Sleek-Jet]

Crap... and here I am without a tin foil hat... :idea:
Doesn't the new regulation only apply to engines in new watercraft... i.e. those manufactured after a certain date. I would hazard a guess that the law will allow modification similiar to land based emission controlled vehicles. The parts will have to CARB approved and what not, but it will be possible to modify an emissions engine.
Anything is allowed on older engine/boats.
The aftermarket performance business sure doesn't seem to be hurting with autos right now... don't see why it would be any different with watercraft.
Does anyone have a link to the new rule???

[OCMerrill]

They might be better served by passing some sort of ordinance banning semi trucks that throw black smoke from the stacks everytime they accelerate.
I own several box trucks. The last thing we want to do is smoke. If someone calls CARB on us I am pretty much f'd. I have to have all trucks tested. Expensive.

[OCMerrill]

What California does will set the stage for all the other states to follow.
True there. Cal is always the aggressive test bed for the country when it comes to emissions.
NJ follows a close second place.

[cdog]

Hell ya! Bring it. My 05 comes with a 540ci.:)

[Big Warlock]

Hell ya! Bring it. My 05 comes with a 540ci.:)
Are you still moving or did you give up!!!??? :D

[Ziggy]

No need for facts, that would just cloud the issue. In the lib/demo/whacko/communist agenda - since you don't fish for a living, you don't need a boat, so you should pay extra if you want one. Aspiring to higher goals is a sin against the proletariat. You should be content to live in urban government project apartment and drink your cheap vodka, Komerad.
Using emissions is just one more way to accomplish that goal.
I think a lot of guys are fishing for something, just not with nets or hooks. ;) :D

[CPBRIAN10THMTN]

Here's the article from SCMA-------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Immediate Release: March 26, 2007 (#070326)
For More Information: Media Direction/Bob Brown or Leslie Osborn
(714) 524-1755 mdirection@covad.net
SCMA images are available to the media at: www.images.scma.com
Additional SCMA press releases are available at: www.mediadirection1.com
************************************************** ********************************
SCMA SPONSORS LEGISLATION TO LEVEL THE COMPETITIVE PLAYING FIELD
OVER NEW ENGINE EMISSION REGULATIONS
Orange, CA: Without some legislative action before January 1, 2008, California marine dealers who sell new power boats will face a distinct price disadvantage in competing with dealers in adjacent states due to a new inboard/sterndrive engine emission standard adopted by the California Air Resources Board (CARB).
After pushing to clean up the two-stroke outboard industry in the 90s, CARB has been relentless in its pursuit of reducing HC+NOx emissions from recreational power boats with inboard/sterndrive gasoline engines. After nearly six years of meetings, public hearings, development and testing, next year all new boats with inboard or sterndrive engines under 500 horsepower* sold in California must be standard equipped from the engine manufacturer with catalytic converters in order to meet the 5.0 g/KW-hr HC+NOx state emissions limit. In 2008, this will be a California-only regulation; none of the other 49 states will be burdened with this requirement.
California dealers do not yet know how much more the catalyzed boats/engines will cost than identical models without catalytic converters sold in other states. Ballpark estimates range from $600 to $1,800 or more per boat to the California consumer depending on the specific engine model. The price differential and doubts about the performance level and safety of the converter are sure to have some California buyers considering out-of-state purchases come January 1, 2008.
The CARB regulations impose limits on what engines the manufacturers may sell in California after January 1, 2007 although all but one engine manufacturer** have opted to select CARB's Option #2 plan which doesn't take affect until 2008. The regulations, however, do not prohibit a Californian from going outside of the state, buying a non-compliant boat, and bringing it into California and registering it with the Department of Motor Vehicles. CARB has advised the state marine trade associations that it does not have any remedy in mind for this problem.
To try to level the competitive playing field for California dealers, Assemblywoman Betty Karnette (D, Long Beach) has introduced AB 695 which would make it illegal to register a non-compliant inboard/sterndrive power boat in California after December 31, 2007. The legislation, supported by the Southern California Marine Association and other major marine trade groups, is patterned after similar laws governing the out-of-state purchases of automobiles. AB 695 would require manufacturers to provide certificates of compliance with all engines meeting the California standard so that buyers can legally register the boats. DMV's registration procedure would have to be changed to insure compliance.
"The California dealers are not questioning the air quality standards proposed by CARB," said Dave Geoffroy, SCMA executive director, "but the timing of CARB's enforcement has created a serious competitive business handicap for our members. AB 695 actually would reinforce the intent of CARB's standards by closing a loophole in those regulations."
According to boating industry sources, by 2010, the federal standards probably will be raised in the remaining 49 states to the California level, but California dealers are seeking the protection of AB 695 until the federal standards are changed. SCMA is urging its members to contact their respective state legislators and seek their support for AB 695 in upcoming hearings and floor votes in Sacramento.
*CARB has allowed engine manufacturers an exemption option on two specific engine models; the 4.3 liter V-6 and the 8.1 liter V-8. Engine manufacturers may select one engine model, but not both, for non-catalyzed sale in California after January 1, 2008.
** Indmar is the only marine engine manufacturer that has elected to abide by CARB's Option #1 plan. 45% of Indmar's engines sold in California in 2007 will be compliant with the new regulations, and 75% will comply starting in 2008.

[Not So Fast]

Crap... and here I am without a tin foil hat... :idea:
Doesn't the new regulation only apply to engines in new watercraft... i.e. those manufactured after a certain date. I would hazard a guess that the law will allow modification similiar to land based emission controlled vehicles. The parts will have to CARB approved and what not, but it will be possible to modify an emissions engine.
Anything is allowed on older engine/boats.
The aftermarket performance business sure doesn't seem to be hurting with autos right now... don't see why it would be any different with watercraft.
Does anyone have a link to the new rule???
All I said was did anybody read the article OK Wanker? If you have a problem with what I post then I have an answer for you "Dont read it" Have a nice day!! NSF

[cdog]

Are you still moving or did you give up!!!??? :D
Still coming. I'm submitting an offer on a house today. The boat's still over at SW.

[minimatt]

The way I read that, it only applies to engines with less than 500 horsepower. In my experience, custom motors usually exceed that, so it shouldn't effect them. Of course, I could be all wrong in my interpretation. Kinda' glad I bought a 2007 with 650hp.

[058]

They might be better served by passing some sort of ordinance banning semi trucks that throw black smoke from the stacks everytime they accelerate.Where the hell have you been?:mad: Any idea what we as diesel truck owners have to go thru to pass smoke and particulate tests? Here in Cal. we are subject to random roadside smoke/particulate checks and the 1st offense non-compliant fines are not pocket change, the 2nd offense in 2 years fine is almost triple that of the 1st. offense.

[rvrtoy]

Where the hell have you been?:mad: Any idea what we as diesel truck owners have to go thru to pass smoke and particulate tests? Here in Cal. we are subject to random roadside smoke/particulate checks and the 1st offense non-compliant fines are not pocket change, the 2nd offense in 2 years fine is almost triple that of the 1st. offense.
Apparently I have been hiding under a rock!:D Granted, I am not in CA any longer but I do know that where I live I still see trucks that blow black from time to time.

[Sleek-Jet]

All I said was did anybody read the article OK Wanker? If you have a problem with what I post then I have an answer for you "Dont read it" Have a nice day!! NSF
I don't have a problem with what you posted... hell, I didn't even quote it...
The title of the thread says "No More Custom Motors"... that's pretty much a blanket statement... so I went and looked... no where in what I've been able to read does anyone even come close to saying that.
I would also like to see the law, as I've not been able to find it, either on the CARB website or doing any searches. I know it exists because the sellers and manufacturers have talked about it, but I'd like to read it in any event.

[mbrown2]

So basically Merc will choose to exempt the 8.1 Engine, or the 4.3? I think this is complete crap particularly the loop hole closure will prohibit CA residents from buying out of compliant boats and registering them....ala Promax 300x's and 2.5's just several years ago.
I was suprised the the SCMA was in support of that loop hole closure...yes, it may force people not to register in CA, but it will not prevent them from registering elsewhere.....so SCMA members will lose either way...More boats bought out of state, more boats registered out of state. Wonder if they are tracking these numbers in the testbed analysis.
In hindsight these sorts of things drive better technology with engines, more efficient and cleaner burning engines and still able to produce horsepower, but in reality, I think the cost to implement for the engine builders, manufactures, and additional cost to the buyers does not outweight the harm to the environment as the number of boats is very small compared to the number of cars on the road...

[HALLETT BOY]

In hindsight these sorts of things drive better technology with engines, more efficient and cleaner burning engines and still able to produce horsepower, but in reality, I think the cost to implement for the engine builders, manufactures, and additional cost to the buyers does not outweight the harm to the environment as the number of boats is very small compared to the number of cars on the road...
mbrown2 is online now Report Post Reply With Quote
This is exactly what will happen, it already is with the demise of the small and big block engines of GM. The replacement LS series engines are the future...more horsepower and cleaner burning engines...technology marches on!

[Moneypitt]

Didn't AZ about tripple their fees for out of state owners?.....And I seem to recall a thread about the CHP stopping out of state boats being pulled by in state vehicles, or on Ca trailers........Cal DMV has learded alot since the old days of smog on vehicles and smog certs at your corner gas station...Seems like only yesterday we finally got cars 50 states compliant, and now they want to start all this crap with boats!!! Best climate in the world, but California sucks in just about every other way............MP

[MODVP22]

First ouboards, now custom inboards. If they are so worried about emissions why worry about the small number of performance boats and go after some larger quantites..like lawn mowers:rolleyes:
Funny, "performance boating" is such a small niche in the market they say..but they sure will go after us first:mad:

[BEER&WATER]

what makes anyone think that we will have gas to burn so we can pollute if we wanted too

[mjc]

Merc will probaly exempt the 4.3 the 8.1 is supposed to be going away Gm is supposed to be stopping production of that motor. It's only in trucks and they will just use more Duramax's

[BajaMike]

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) are a bunch of spineless pussy's. Instead of going after the major poluters, they go after the little guys. They have previously proposed banning home BBQs and home gas powered lawn mowers:confused:
They are a weak minded bunch controlled by big industry and big auto manufacturers.......:idea:

[DeltaSigBoater]

Didn't AZ about tripple their fees for out of state owners?.....And I seem to recall a thread about the CHP stopping out of state boats being pulled by in state vehicles, or on Ca trailers........Cal DMV has learded alot since the old days of smog on vehicles and smog certs at your corner gas station...Seems like only yesterday we finally got cars 50 states compliant, and now they want to start all this crap with boats!!! Best climate in the world, but California sucks in just about every other way............MP
Yes the AZ boat registration fees for Non-Residents went up substantially in the past few years. The CHP was (and I think still are) stopping individuals who's Tow vechiles were registered in one state, CA, and their trailers were registered in another state, AZ, NV, etc.
Bienvenidos a Kommieforniastan :mad:

[Desert68]

I'm suprised none of the pricks are mentioning OBD II and the likes.

[CoolCruzinCobra]

[QUOTE=DeltaSigBoater;2836771]Yes the AZ boat registration fees for Non-Residents went up substantially in the past few years. The CHP was (and I think still are) stopping individuals who's Tow vechiles were registered in one state, CA, and their trailers were registered in another state, AZ, NV, etc.
Best to register the boat in Az and the trailer in Ca if your going to tow in Calif.

[hkunz]

They really like the two states licensing thing - I got ticketed for CA DL and Washington tags on the Jeep. Just had to pay a fine, didn't have to change it. What a money maker!

[DeltaSigBoater]

Best to register the boat in Az and the trailer in Ca if your going to tow in Calif.
Thats how its always been in my life time :D

[cruser]

If I read the SCMA article correctly it says motors > 500HP or boats equipped with other than Stern drives are exempt. The Jet and VDrive are exempt as are those motors making 501hp on up. This means that a lot if not most of us are not subject to this legistation, at least until they figure out many boats they missed. :)

[ecm]

Starting January 1, 2008 all 500hp and below motors that are installed in new California boats will have to meet emissions regulations. Starting January 1, 2009 all motors will have to meet emissions regulations. The EPA is exactly 1 year behind California. So in 2009 any engine under 500hp will be emissions legal and everything after 2010 will have to be emissions legal. At current time Mercury and Ilmor are trying to get the regulations loosened up a bit because they are not able to comply with the 500hp and above motors. I think that this is going to make the motors better for the consumer, but it is going to cost you more.
Kirk

[ULTRA26 # 1]

No need for facts, that would just cloud the issue. In the lib/demo/whacko/communist agenda - since you don't fish for a living,...........
Just curious when air pollution became a lib/demo/whacko/communist agenda. Is this to say that conservatives don't care about clean air? :)

[cruser]

ECM,
Do the 2010 regs still specify motors for stern drives or do they expand this requirement for all motors?
By the way, at the Portland Oregon boat show last year, there were several ski/wake board boats that already had catalytic converts on. They were being highlighted as an advance and I beleive the cost difference was about $800 or so.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Are cats on boats with stock power a bad thing?

[justfloatn]

In hindsight these sorts of things drive better technology with engines, more efficient and cleaner burning engines and still able to produce horsepower, but in reality, I think the cost to implement for the engine builders, manufactures, and additional cost to the buyers does not outweight the harm to the environment as the number of boats is very small compared to the number of cars on the road...
mbrown2 is online now Report Post Reply With Quote
This is exactly what will happen, it already is with the demise of the small and big block engines of GM. The replacement LS series engines are the future...more horsepower and cleaner burning engines...technology marches on!
I agree that technology will prevail. But look how long it took for the aftermarket auto industry to bounce back and figure out how to make emissions legal H.P. We do have better technology now than in the 80's and 90's. But I see a 5 year bump in the road. You MIGHT see two or three smaller, emissions legal, engines Vs. one 1100HP monster to reach the speeds people want.
I also think the performance, pre-emission/non-regulated, boats may hold their value a little better until the new technology catches up.

[ecm]

Cruser,
All marine engines will have to meet emissions standards across the country in 2010. Carb. and EPA are requiring any internal combustion engine to be emissions legal. In the next year or so your next lawn mower will be emissions friendly.
Kirk

[Sleek-Jet]

ecm... do you have a link to either the EPA regulation of the CARB regulation?? For the life of me I can't find it... :confused:

[Sleek-Jet]

Found the NPRM on the EPA site... 297 pages worth... it's found under "Control of Emissions from Nonroad Spark-Ignition Engines and Equipment"...

[Dave C]

The real question is will they require tests after you buy it????...
they can require all the emissions they want from the factory.... it will just cost us more to remove them and replace them with the parts we wanted in the first place :D :D :devil:
BTW I though most small stock Merc motors were already emission compliant with the exception of cat. converters. Anyone know? We have those stupid star stickers on the side of our boats.

[ecm]

The link to Carb. is http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/recmarine/recmarine.htm .
Huffpower, I don't blame you for wanting to exile California, but this is a HOT TOPIC for the country. 2 words- global warming!

[Stiletto24]

Didn't AZ about tripple their fees for out of state owners?.....And I seem to recall a thread about the CHP stopping out of state boats being pulled by in state vehicles, or on Ca trailers........Cal DMV has learded alot since the old days of smog on vehicles and smog certs at your corner gas station...Seems like only yesterday we finally got cars 50 states compliant, and now they want to start all this crap with boats!!! Best climate in the world, but California sucks in just about every other way............MP
Yep, I went to renew my registration it went from $75.00 to $380.00 for non residents. The kicker is that California charges a California State Waterway Tax...:mad: That is Equal to the AZ reg fees. But if your boat is registered in Arizona and your trailer is registered in California CHP will pull you over. happened to me. They let me go with a warning. But there is no law that states that you cannot trailer an Az reg Boat on a Cali trailer!!!:jawdrop: As long as you have the registration on both trailer and Boat.If you tow a AZ registered trailer and boat with a California registered truck. Again you will meet up with you friendly local CHP. They get you coming and going! First mufflers we are to loud, Registration and waterway taxes, Fuel excise tax on the water, No custom motors, Next step.... No boating on any waterways or lakes??

[bohica]

If you think the boating manufacturers have it bad, you should see what's going on in the CA sandrail market. As of 2007, it became illegal for any CA sandrail maufacturer to sell a turnkey buggy without a CARB approved motor. Nevermind that the process to get a motor certified is so convoluted that it's almost next to impossible, it's a very expensive process for these custom builders. Most builders don't have the resources to get it done and since the enforcement has been low, most have ignored it. As of last month, CARB has been making the rounds and threatening huge fines.

[Antisocial]

I know this may sound stupid but how the hell is a catalitic converter going to work if its got water running through it ? Nox is a gas that is effected by heat. Why dont they put egr valves on motors, that would take care of the nox.. As for hc the computer should compensate for emissions. why do you think merc or any other manufact can get so much power out of a stock motor( fuel curves & trims )Sometimes the people writing laws should do research before screwing the pooch...:D