My Armenian great grandparents were not killed!

[Baja Big Dog]

Great news, according to the government, in the interest of our relationship with Turkey have decided not to recognize the "genocide" involving the MURDER of over 1.5 million Armenians at the turn of the century, including my great grandparents!!
The bill that was passed would "offend" Turkey.....
Wow, that makes everything better!!
Gotta a feeling this issue is not over with the Armenians, they have a tendicy to not forget things!!!

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

I don't mean to sound rude or anything because I know nothing about this topic but why is it up to the US to declare anything about it in the first place? Did it happen here? I swear, I am not trying to be an asshole, I am just curious?

[Big Warlock]

Great news, according to the government, in the interest of our relationship with Turkey have decided not to recognize the "genocide" involving the MURDER of over 1.5 million Armenians at the turn of the century, including my great grandparents!!
The bill that was passed would "offend" Turkey.....
Wow, that makes everything better!!
Gotta a feeling this issue is not over with the Armenians, they have a tendicy to not forget things!!!
Democratic congress, just doing important work of the people!!! LOL :eek:

[DMOORE]

My wife is 100% Armenian. Her grandmother was a slave of the turks and escaped at the age of 13 with a cousin. Almost every male in the family was killed. Because the turks will not admit to the genocide, or apoligise for wrong doings, they have not been allowed to enter into the European Union. And now "our" congress.......
Darrell.

[Big Warlock]

My wife is 100% Armenian. Her grandmother was a slave of the turks and escaped at the age of 13 with a cousin. Almost every male in the family was killed. Because the turks will not admit to the genocide, or apoligise for wrong doings, they have not been allowed to enter into the European Union. And now "our" congress.......
Darrell.
You want to say "Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid" yes? yes? What is your question young man??? :confused:

[DMOORE]

You want to say "Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid" yes? yes? What is your question young man??? :confused:
Ya, It just makes one sick to see what these idiots do on a daily basis.
Darrell.

[MudPumper]

I don't mean to sound rude or anything because I know nothing about this topic but why is it up to the US to declare anything about it in the first place? Did it happen here? I swear, I am not trying to be an asshole, I am just curious?
I was wondering the same thing. Why does the US need to recognize something the US had no involvement in???
Since we're on the Armemian topic......
http://kroq-data.com/videos/kb/wm-browdown.html

[HavasuSelect]

I wonder what Bush would say if the Germans denied the holocaust :idea: I think he'd prob change his tune a little bit.....
At least Mel Gibson is on our side....
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/blulitespecial8/gibson.jpg

[Big Warlock]

I wonder what Bush would say if the Germans denied the holocaust :idea: I think he'd prob change his tune a little bit.....
At least Mel Gibson is on our side....
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/blulitespecial8/gibson.jpg
I don't think this is Bush in denial. I think it was congress that submitted the bill.:idea:

[DMOORE]

[QUOTE=MudPumper;2835610]I was wondering the same thing. Why does the US need to recognize something the US had no involvement in???
I dunno, maybe it's ok to just look away when millions of people are being murdered? Turkey, Germany, Rowanda, Darfor(sp?) .
Darrell.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

[QUOTE=MudPumper;2835610]I was wondering the same thing. Why does the US need to recognize something the US had no involvement in???
I dunno, maybe it's ok to just look away when millions of people are being murdered? Turkey, Germany, Rowanda, Darfor(sp?) .
Darrell.
But what does it matter if the US declares it anything? What difference does it make what the US thinks of the situation. It does not change what happened?
Again, I am not trying to disrespect any Armenians. I just do not understand why or how the US is getting bashed for this??

[MudPumper]

[QUOTE=MudPumper;2835610]I was wondering the same thing. Why does the US need to recognize something the US had no involvement in???
I dunno, maybe it's ok to just look away when millions of people are being murdered? Turkey, Germany, Rowanda, Darfor(sp?) .
Darrell.
Ummmm......OK. This happened from 1915 to 1917....they aren't being killed now. If this was happening now....I would expect the US to get involved. This is History between Turkey and the Armenians, still trying to figure out what the US involvement is?

[HavasuSelect]

I don't think this is Bush in denial. I think it was congress that submitted the bill.:idea:
Whether he's in denial or not, he was against it.
The House Foreign Affairs Committee passed the bill Wednesday despite intense lobbying by Turkish officials and opposition from President Bush. The vote was a triumph for well-organized Armenian-American interest groups who have lobbied Congress for decades to pass a resolution.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_us_genocide

[MudPumper]

What will change if the US says, "OK we recognize it happened." ??? I'm asking because I don't know.:idea:

[Big Warlock]

Whether he's in denial or not, he was against it.
The House Foreign Affairs Committee passed the bill Wednesday despite intense lobbying by Turkish officials and opposition from President Bush. The vote was a triumph for well-organized Armenian-American interest groups who have lobbied Congress for decades to pass a resolution.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_us_genocide
My bad! I missed that! I thought it was reversed. Either way, it should be recognized, by any party, including the Turkish government!

[DMOORE]

[QUOTE=DMOORE;2835654]
Ummmm......OK. This happened from 1915 to 1917....they aren't being killed now. If this was happening now....I would expect the US to get involved. This is History between Turkey and the Armenians, still trying to figure out what the US involvement is?
The entire thing has to do with denial. The Turkish government has NEVER admitted to the atrocities. That would be like the US never admitting to slavery. Yes it was a long time ago, but it does not change the fact that millions were murdered and enslaved, and a society will not admit it.
I guess ther is no reason to argue with people over this.
Darrell.

[Kilrtoy]

I don't mean to sound rude or anything because I know nothing about this topic but why is it up to the US to declare anything about it in the first place? Did it happen here? I swear, I am not trying to be an asshole, I am just curious?
I am with ya Linda, WHY does the US of A have to even comment on this

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

[QUOTE=MudPumper;2835667]
The entire thing has to do with denial. The Turkish government has NEVER admitted to the atrocities. That would be like the US never admitting to slavery. Yes it was a long time ago, but it does not change the fact that millions were murdered and enslaved, and a society will not admit it.
I guess ther is no reason to argue with people over this.
Darrell.
That does not even make sense. The US does not deny slavery.
From what you are saying, this "genocide" was between the Turkish and the Armenians in the early 1900's. What difference does is make if the US declares it a genocide? How does the US saying that validate anything?

[Old Texan]

The "timing" of the bill in regards to Turkish-US relation in regards to Iraq war logistics produces somewhat of a sour smell. The issue has been going on for years and just now comes to be a Bill submitted to Congress? Makes one wonder about the reasoning......:idea:

[Old Texan]

[QUOTE=DMOORE;2835684]
That does not even make sense. The US does not deny slavery.
From what you are saying, this "genocide" was between the Turkish and the Armenians in the early 1900's. What difference does is make if the US declares it a genocide? How does the US saying that validate anything?
Politics, pure and simple. It's all in the timing.

[DMOORE]

[QUOTE=DMOORE;2835684]
That does not even make sense. The US does not deny slavery.
If you read my post, it states that it would be the same as IF the US government denied slavery. And about the US declaring it genocide, I bet it would make a big deal to the millions of Armenian Americans, who lost loved ones at the hands of the Turks. It might make a difference to you if your grandmother told you stories of how her entire family was murdered by a government (the Turkish Army ) then the girls were enslaved and raped on a regular basis. It might just make a difference.
Darrell.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

[QUOTE=Mrs. Bordsmnj;2835698]
If you read my post, it states that it would be the same as IF the US government denied slavery. And about the US declaring it genocide, I bet it would make a big deal to the millions of Armenian Americans, who lost loved ones at the hands of the Turks. It might make a difference to you if your grandmother told you stories of how her entire family was murdered by a government (the Turkish Army ) then the girls were enslaved and raped on a regular basis. It might just make a difference.
Darrell.
The US had nothing to do with it??
I just don't get the connection. :confused:

[DMOORE]

[QUOTE=DMOORE;2835710]
The US had nothing to do with it??
I just don't get the connection. :confused:
Yes I can see that now.
Darrell.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

[QUOTE=Mrs. Bordsmnj;2835717]
Yes I can see that now.
Darrell.
Ok, well lets just agree to disagree. Like I said before, no disrespect to Armenians.

[MudPumper]

Can somebody explain what will change if the US did recognize it???

[DMOORE]

[QUOTE=DMOORE;2835721]
Ok, well lets just agree to disagree. Like I said before, no disrespect to Armenians.
Well, is is disrespect to Armenians, just as saying the Holocaust never happened is disrespectful to Jews, or saying slavery never happened is disrespectful to Africian Americans.
It is simply, about the greatest Super Power in the world putting pressure on a society to admit past wrongs. That's all. I don't know how to explain it any more basic than that.
Darrell.

[billygull]

Well, I'm glad our oh-so-efficient government is getting so many important issues resolved...:rolleyes: We've got so many problems, both foreign and domestic, that are more important than offending Turkey by not acknowledging a genocide that happened.
~BillyRay~
boat insurance (http://www.unitedmarine.net/boat.asp)

[Ultra5150]

Can somebody explain what will change if the US did recognize it???
From CNN - Our soldeirs would be put at risk.... Do you guys really want to be on the same side as the French on this one?
Turkey, a NATO member, has been a key U.S. ally in the Middle East and a conduit for sending supplies into Iraq.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Wednesday that good relations with Turkey are vital because 70 percent of the air cargo intended for U.S. forces in Iraq and 30 percent of the fuel consumed by those forces fly through Turkey.
U.S. commanders "believe clearly that access to airfields and roads and so on in Turkey would very much be put at risk if this resolution passes and the Turks react as strongly as we believe they will," Gates said.
Bagis said no French planes have flown through Turkish airspace since a French Parliament committee passed a similar resolution last year.
He said the response to the U.S. might not be the same, but warned if the full House passes it that "we will do something, and I can promise you it won't be pleasant."

[socalmoney]

Gotta a feeling this issue is not over with the Armenians, they have a tendicy to not forget things!!!
Yea, don't rob their money train.
$

[Baja Big Dog]

a fifth grader?
Ask them about the genocide, or what ever you want to call it. Oh yea, its not reconized in the schools, and it is not taught.:mad:

[KineticoH20]

OK I'll chime in here being half Armenian I have no i'll will twards the Turkish people. However in 1915-1917 a large percentage of a race of people was wiped off the earth. It's not like losing 1.5 mil chinese today. Like others have said imagine nobody owning up to the Jewish genocide it would be an outrage. It is a bit hippocritical for our goverment to spend what we do for Isriel. Every president goes and walks on the concentration camp sites lays a wreath but won't own up to the horrible Armenian genocide because it's not in our best political intrest. Don't get me wrong it's not just Armenia it'a africa also.

[KineticoH20]

[QUOTE=Mrs. Bordsmnj;2835726]
Well, is is disrespect to Armenians, just as saying the Holocaust never happened is disrespectful to Jews, or saying slavery never happened is disrespectful to Africian Americans.
It is simply, about the greatest Super Power in the world putting pressure on a society to admit past wrongs. That's all. I don't know how to explain it any more basic than that.
Darrell.
Well said! couldn't have articulated it better or shorter.

[KineticoH20]

[QUOTE=ShockwaveBob;2835998]We ran recon out of Hakkan, Turkey before Desert Storm. To say that Turkey is a strategic ally in the middle East is putting it mildly. I feel for the Armenians, but what has Armenia done for us lately?
Since 1992 Armenia and the United States have signed three major agreements regulating the trade and economic relations between the two countries. They include Agreement of Trade relations, Investment and Protection of Investment. Negotiations for a bilateral tax agreement are underway.
The U.S. - Armenia Task Force on Economic Reform and Cooperation, established in 2000, is a productive framework to promote trade and investments in Armenia, as well as to facilitate economic and legal reform. Goals and objectives set forth by the Task Force are to rebuild Armenia's economy and create employment opportunities.
Currently around 70 American companies do business in Armenia in the fields of precious stone processing and jewelry manufacturing, information and communication technology, food processing, mining and tourism.

[MudPumper]

I feel for the Armenians, but what has Armenia done for us lately?
.
I know Armenia WILL NOT extradite criminals back to the US. That's why when a murder or fatal hit and run occur, they are scrambling to jump a plane back to Armenia. We have made some progress with government relations but they still refuse to extradite.

[Pepperkornski]

[QUOTE=DMOORE;2835684]
That does not even make sense. The US does not deny slavery.
From what you are saying, this "genocide" was between the Turkish and the Armenians in the early 1900's. What difference does is make if the US declares it a genocide? How does the US saying that validate anything?
Not knowing any thing about this discussion, I would think that maybe, Armenians are an important segment of your population and should be treated as such.

[MudPumper]

I believe, although I'm not 100% certain, that even though Armenia will not extradite, they will prosecute the case themselves.
Yes...this is the progress we have made but it isnt easy and they still refuse to extradite.

[MudPumper]

I have no doubt that Armenia has been a good ally to us. And, if Armenia happened to border Syria, Iraq and Iran, I'm sure they would be on the long end of the stick on this one.
Armenia borders Iran on the south.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

Not knowing any thing about this discussion, I would think that maybe, Armenians are an important segment of your population and should be treated as such.
YOU ARE MISSING MY POINT!!!!!! I do not understand how the US declaring genocide will somehow validate the Armenians?
I give up. :rolleyes: Shame on me for questioning a ***boater :rolleyes:

[KineticoH20]

YOU ARE MISSING MY POINT!!!!!! I do not understand how the US declaring genocide will somehow validate the Armenians?
I give up. :rolleyes: Shame on me for questioning a ***boater :rolleyes:
I'm sure it's still part of the healing process. It is probably hard for people who are not Armenian to understand. At prsent there are about 3 million Armenians in Armenia 90 years ago 1.5 were systematicly killed.
The Genocide of the Armenians by the Turkish government during World War I represents a major tragedy of the modern age. In this first Genocide of the 20th century, almost an entire nation was destroyed. The Armenian people were effectively eliminated from the homeland they occupied for nearly three thousand years.

[Miss Perfect]

YOU ARE MISSING MY POINT!!!!!! I do not understand how the US declaring genocide will somehow validate the Armenians?
I give up. :rolleyes: Shame on me for questioning a ***boater :rolleyes:
They want people to acknowledge that it happened. It will not re-write history, but at least it will be a part of history... otherwise it was all in vain.

[Lightning]

I never in my wildest day thought I would see a post about Armenians on ***boat.
I am Armenian...my grandparents on my mothers side and my grandmother on my fathers side were survivors of the genocide. Why is it important you ask? Becuase it happened and it's important for the survivors and their decendants to recoginze that it took place. My grandfather saw his 5 brothers and dad get killed in front of him, literally beheaded. People died....a lot of them as previously stated. For me and many others, not recognizing that the genocide took place would be parallel with not recognizing the genocide of the Jews. I understand the US position is purely based on political reason, as it always has been.

[Lightning]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40937&d=1192144141

[Lightning]

That's a very poignant passage, because, I'll be honest with you, until it was brought up today, I had no idea that the Armenians were ever victims of genocide.
Intersting you say that, which is one of the reason that the Armenians want it recognized. It's a part of history that is never taught or discussed.
This passage is posted in the holocaust museum in DC. After the "four floor of death" as I call it, this is one of the final things you see on the way out of the museum....

[Toomstone]

nothing against Armenians but if it is going to screw up our relationship with Turkey where our military frequently stops on the way to Iraq or other Middle East nations... and it has nothing to do with the US then why should the US even take the time to vote on whether it should be labeled genocide or not?... so a few people can say "America thinks it was genocide." I think it's just one more thing the US government has no business in.

[KineticoH20]

nothing against Armenians but if it is going to screw up our relationship with Turkey where our military frequently stops on the way to Iraq or other Middle East nations... and it has nothing to do with the US then why should the US even take the time to vote on whether it should be labeled genocide or not?... so a few people can say "America thinks it was genocide." I think it's just one more thing the US government has no business in.
Obviously your not Armenian, If you were I'm sure you would have a different opinion. Again a complete race of people was almost anihalated im sure for alot of Armenians that have been told for years it never happened it is quite significant for the most powerfull democracy in the world to acknowledge it. Again it might be hard to understand unless you were african,jewish or another race of people that have been wronged. My god they are not asking for reporations just some damn acknowledgement.

[Baja Big Dog]

That's a very poignant passage, because, I'll be honest with you, until it was brought up today, I had no idea that the Armenians were ever victims of genocide.
Bingo...thats part of the issue, like I said, ask your kids, or ask yourself, did you hear about the genocide in school?
Nope, its not a part of history!!!

[XtrmWakeborder]

Question, my history is a bit outdated, but didn't Armenia declare war on Turkey? What Turkey did was extremely unacceptable, but hurting our relations by saying we know it happened, Which is common history, is just dumb right now. We need all of the allies we can get and have already angered the Turkish by forming an alliance with the kurds. This isn't going to help. Saying this only hurts us, it doesn't help.

[KineticoH20]

Question, my history is a bit outdated, but didn't Armenia declare war on Turkey? What Turkey did was extremely unacceptable, but hurting our relations by saying we know it happened, Which is common history, is just dumb right now. We need all of the allies we can get and have already angered the Turkish by forming an alliance with the kurds. This isn't going to help. Saying this only hurts us, it doesn't help.
You my friend need some history les:confused: sons

[XtrmWakeborder]

You my friend need some history les:confused: sons
Enlighten me. It was a question.

[XtrmWakeborder]

Nvm, found this on Wiki, so I don't know if it is valid or not.
The conflict began in June 1920 [2] when Armenian border troops became involved in skirmishes with militant Turkish tribes in the district of Oltu, a territory which was fomerly under the control of the Democratic Republic of Georgia but ended up in the hands of local Muslim warlords. [1] On October 6, the tenuous DRA government ordered the partial occupation of the district. [2] Using the move as a pretext for war, General Kazım Karabekir led four Turkish battalions into the district on September 3 and drove the Armenians out. [2] Karabekir then pushed into the DRA on September 20 [1] prompting the Armenian government to declare war on Turkey four days later.
So was I wrong saying they declared war on Turkey or is this skewed?

[KineticoH20]

Enlighten me. It was a question.
During WWI, The Young Turk political faction of the Ottoman Empire sought the creation of a new Turkish state extending into Central Asia. Those promoting the ideology called "Pan Turkism" (creating a homogenous Turkish state) now saw its Armenian minority population as an obstacle to the realization of that goal.
On April 24, 1915, several hundred Armenian community leaders and intellectuals in Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) were arrested, sent east, and put to death. In May, after mass deportations had already begun, Minister of the Interior Talaat Pasha, claiming that Armenians could offer aid and comfort to the enemy and were in a state of imminent rebellion, ordered their deportation into the Syrian desert.
The adult and teenage males were separated from the deportation caravans and killed under the direction of Young Turk functionaries. Women and children were driven for months over mountains and desert, often raped, tortured, and mutilated. Deprived of food and water and often stripped of clothing, they fell by the hundreds of thousands along the routes to the desert. Ultimately, more than half the Armenian population, 1,500,000 people were annihilated. In this manner the Armenian people were eliminated from their homeland of several millennia.

[XtrmWakeborder]

So did it start in 1915 or 1920? Any sites to recommend?

[KineticoH20]

So did it start in 1915 or 1920? Any sites to recommend?
Started in 1915, try a yahoo search on Armenian genocide, this thread has made me read alot today.

[BajaMike]

The current proposed legislation is totally meaningless, and will only hurt our relationship with Turkey, who happens to be our greatest ally in the Middle East and the war on terror.
Something like 70% of our aircraft flying to and from Iraq and many of our re-fueling flights use Turkish airspace.
The proposed bill is meaningless….our relationship with Turkey is very valuable…..International relations is complicated stuff and very important to our troops on the ground. It should not be a venue for pin-headed California congressmen who want to please a few Armenian contributors.
What happened in the past is the past....this bill will not change anything that happened in the past.
:idea:

[Sleeper CP]

From CNN - Our soldeirs would be put at risk.... Do you guys really want to be on the same side as the French on this one?
Turkey, a NATO member, has been a key U.S. ally in the Middle East and a conduit for sending supplies into Iraq.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Wednesday that good relations with Turkey are vital because 70 percent of the air cargo intended for U.S. forces in Iraq and 30 percent of the fuel consumed by those forces fly through Turkey.
U.S. commanders "believe clearly that access to airfields and roads and so on in Turkey would very much be put at risk if this resolution passes and the Turks react as strongly as we believe they will," Gates said.
Bagis said no French planes have flown through Turkish airspace since a French Parliament committee passed a similar resolution last year.
He said the response to the U.S. might not be the same, but warned if the full House passes it that "we will do something, and I can promise you it won't be pleasant."
The whole reason this came up for a vote by the Dem's in congress was to piss off the Turks so that they will restrict our use of their bases or flat out stop our acess. This cuts our militaries supply lines to Iraq. The Dem's can't cut the funds directly so they will use other means.
Granted we will have to find other means, but it will just add a burden and a cost to a diffecult war.
Nvm, found this on Wiki, so I don't know if it is valid or not.
The conflict began in June 1920 [2] when Armenian border troops became involved in skirmishes with militant Turkish tribes in the district of Oltu, a territory which was fomerly under the control of the Democratic Republic of Georgia but ended up in the hands of local Muslim warlords. [1] On October 6, the tenuous DRA government ordered the partial occupation of the district. [2] Using the move as a pretext for war, General Kazım Karabekir led four Turkish battalions into the district on September 3 and drove the Armenians out. [2] Karabekir then pushed into the DRA on September 20 [1] prompting the Armenian government to declare war on Turkey four days later.
So was I wrong saying they declared war on Turkey or is this skewed?
Oh, it was the Muslims that killed 1.5 million people. No that can't be true can it:rolleyes:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[XtrmWakeborder]

The whole reason this came up for a vote by the Dem's in congress was to piss off the Turks so that they will restrict our use of their bases or flat out stop our acess. This cuts our militaries supply lines to Iraq. The Dem's can't cut the funds directly so they will use other means.
Oh, it was the Muslims that killed 1.5 million people. No that can't be true can it:rolleyes:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
I'm guessing this war was the result of the atrocities.

[Sleeper CP]

The current proposed legislation is totally meaningless, and will only hurt our relationship with Turkey, who happens to be our greatest ally in the Middle East and the war on terror.
Something like 70% of our aircraft flying to and from Iraq and many of our re-fueling flights use Turkish airspace.
The proposed bill is meaningless….our relationship with Turkey is very valuable…..International relations is complicated stuff and very important to our troops on the ground. It should not be a venue for pin-headed California congressmen who want to please a few Armenian contributors.
What happened in the past is the past....this bill will not change anything that happened in the past.
:idea:
Yeah, What he said:)
Sleeper CP

[Sleeper CP]

I'm guessing this war was the result of the atrocities.
:confused: Sorry I'm a little slow tonight :confused:
Sleeper CP

[XtrmWakeborder]

:confused: Sorry I'm a little slow tonight :confused:
Sleeper CP
Hey, i'm learning as I go so i'm not sure if it's true...I just love history so people are encouraged to correct me.

[Sleeper CP]

That's fine, which war do you mean; the current Iraq war or something else:confused:
Sleeper CP

[XtrmWakeborder]

That's fine, which war do you mean; the current Iraq war or something else:confused:
Sleeper CP
1920 Turkey and Armenia

[HavasuSelect]

The current proposed legislation is totally meaningless, and will only hurt our relationship with Turkey, who happens to be our greatest ally in the Middle East and the war on terror.
Something like 70% of our aircraft flying to and from Iraq and many of our re-fueling flights use Turkish airspace.
The proposed bill is meaningless….our relationship with Turkey is very valuable…..International relations is complicated stuff and very important to our troops on the ground. It should not be a venue for pin-headed California congressmen who want to please a few Armenian contributors.
What happened in the past is the past....this bill will not change anything that happened in the past.
:idea:
We're not trying to change what happened in the past, all we're asking for is some recognition. It's already very clear what happened in the past.
You'd better think again about Turkey cutting us off, they've got a lot more to lose than we do...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071012/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_us_genocide
"But Turkey has much more to lose from cutting ties to the U.S.
The United States is one of its major business partners, with $11 billion in trade last year, and the U.S. defense industry provides much of the Turkish military's equipment."
"It should not be a venue for pin-headed California congressmen who want to please a few Armenian contributors."
This is a very disturbing statement. Let me remind you that 1.5 million human lives were exterminated. Exterminated! I know it's not a big deal to you, but for other's, it is.
I found it highly offensive the way you trivialized the Genocide by saying, to "please a few Armenian contributors". I assure you pal, it's way more than a few.
Here's a little background about the "meaningless bill"
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/1.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/2.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/3.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/4.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/5.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/6.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/7.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/8.jpg

[HavasuSelect]

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/9.jpg
Now imagine any one of these pictures depicting any of your past or present family members and tell me this is meaningless.:rolleyes:

[Sleeper CP]

[IMG]
Now imagine any one of these pictures depicting any of your past or present family members and tell me this is meaningless.:rolleyes:
It is amazing what people will do to each other. I sure pray that there is
indeed a Hell for them to go to.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[Debbolas]

Wow, where is Angie where ya need her to explain world history to us:D
My Armenian great grandparents were not killed!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great news, according to the government, in the interest of our relationship with Turkey have decided not to recognize the "genocide" involving the MURDER of over 1.5 million Armenians at the turn of the century, including my great grandparents!!
The bill that was passed would "offend" Turkey.....
Wow, that makes everything better!!
Gotta a feeling this issue is not over with the Armenians, they have a tendicy to not forget things!!!
Ok, it says "in the interest of our relationship with Turkey"
So that means the US is trying to be friendly with Turkey.....So we aren't going to mention the 1.5 million people they murdered, or pass the bill.
We aren't deciding for the world or anything. Just making nice with Turkey.
It sounds like political bullshit to me.
Debboloupolous<-----------Greek ;)

[Baja Big Dog]

Well, the fockin turks (spelled intentionally with a small "t" to so the respect I have for these fine people), announced today they will pull their consulates out of the U.S..
Some here think this is a waste of time to acknowledge what happened, in the interest of keeping our relationships with turkey, mainly for the use of air bases, I have the answer to solve it all, lets send a few thousand troops to turkey, wipe out the population, put up an American flag and call it all good.
Christ, I guess I have the answer, lets all get together push for this, but lets not kill all the slave child labor they have over there making cheap junk products sold on the world markets.
Myself and my family never got to see any pictures of our family, that were murdered, since our grandparents were lucky enough to get out and come to the U.S..

[MudPumper]

I'm guessing this picture was supposed to be taken in Turkey or Armenia, but why would the sign be written in English?
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/HavasuSelect/ag/1.jpg

[Biglue]

Man those pics are some focked up shit.

[Seadog]

This is a prime example of screwing with history for political gains. The genocide was comitted under the control of the Ottoman Empire and was one of the reasons for its destruction. The Armenians tried to take advantage of the War to promote their creating their own country. The Ottomans had their minions take care of it and they pulled an atrocity that was kin to the genocides of Stalin and Hitler. Turkey did not exist at that time. In fact, it was because of this and other factors, Turkey created their country.
The Turks are very sensitive about this and consider the subject a major insult. They go overboard about their reaction to the subject, but think of how we are blamed for the deaths of the Native Americans under French, English, and Spanish rule. And the slave trade under the same governments. This happened a decade ago, and has nothing to do with the Turkish nation and government. But since the Ottoman Empire no longer exists, they want to blame who is there now.
During World War I, as the Ottoman Turkish empire fought Russian forces, some of the Armenian minority in eastern Anatolia sided with the Russians.
Turkey took reprisals. But historians argue over the extent to which Turkish policy towards Armenians during that period was motivated by wartime conditions. On 24 April 1915 Turkey rounded up and killed hundreds of Armenian community leaders.
In May 1915, the Armenian minority, two or three million strong, was forcefully deported and marched from the Anatolian borders towards Syria and Mesopotamia (now Iraq). Many died en route and numerous eyewitnesses reported massacres by Turkish forces. Atrocities against Armenians continued until the Ottoman empire collapsed after the war.
Why does the row continue?
Armenians are one of the world's most dispersed peoples. While in Armenia, Genocide Memorial Day is commemorated across the country, it is the diaspora that has lobbied for recognition from the outside world. The killings are regarded as the seminal event of modern Armenian history, and one that binds the diaspora together.
Part of the answer lies in the organisation and determination of the Armenian-American lobby groups, says Dr Svante Cornell, of the Central Asia-Caucasus Institute at Johns Hopkins University.
The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) and the Armenian Assembly of America (AAA) are among the most powerful.
Another factor is that the Armenian-American community is largely concentrated in important states such as California, Michigan and Massachusetts, Dr Cornell said.
"You have basically a number of places where the Armenian issue is very important in local politics - especially for anybody wanting to get elected in California," he said.
"The Turkish lobby is much less organised and much less rooted in an electorate than the Armenian lobby

[Seadog]

All that raises a question: has there ever been a moment, since the events of 1915, when the Turkish authorities might, conceivably, have acknowledged or even freely discussed the view that almost every Armenian regards as self-evident: the view that in addition to relocating the entire ethnic Armenian population of eastern Anatolia, the "Committee of Union and Progress" (CUP) which wielded effective power in the Ottoman empire also gave secret orders to make sure that as few as possible of the deportees survived the experience?
In fact, there was such a moment: the immediate aftermath of World War I.
Tried and executed
At that time the Ottoman government was intact but dependent for its survival on the good graces of the victorious British Empire.
The sultan's regime was desperately trying to distance itself from the actions of the CUP, the "state within a state" which in 1915 had masterminded the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Armenians - and is alleged to have given secret "extermination" orders at the same time.
During the early months of 1919, few people in Anatolia publicly doubted that Armenians had suffered atrocities that were egregious even by the standards of a terrible war.
The sultan and his foreign minister were at pains to reassure the British of their determination to punish the perpetrators of these atrocities, and they held four big and revealing trials whose proceedings were published in the government gazette.
In April 1919 a local governor, Mehmed Kemal, was found guilty and hanged for the mass killing of Armenians in the Ankara district.
But the climate shifted rapidly after May 1919, when Greek troops were authorised by the victorious Entente powers to occupy the Aegean port of Izmir and, in another part of Anatolia, Mustafa Kemal - later known as Ataturk - began his campaign to make the Turks masters in their own land.
Nationalist feeling
Turkish rage over the Greek landing lent fuel to the Kemalist cause, and discredited the Ottoman government.
With every passing month, the British government's leverage over the Ottoman authorities waned, and so did British enthusiasm for the conduct of war crimes trials.
In 1921, the British government made a pragmatic deal to release a group of Turkish prisoners it had been holding in Malta on suspicion (among other things) of crimes against the Armenians.
They were freed in exchange for Britons being held by the Turks.
In Turkish lore, this release is held up as proof that no serious evidence against the captives existed.
What it certainly proves is that British zeal for investigating the past was waning, even as the Kemalist cause gained strength and the British-influenced Ottoman regime faded into oblivion.
In any case, the officially cherished version of the Turkish state's beginnings now insists since the empire's British adversaries and occupiers were the main promoters of war crimes trials, those trials themselves must have been worthless or malicious.
A new state
But in the midst of all this nationalist discourse, something rather important is often obscured, and there are just a few Turkish historians who dare to point this out.
The atrocities against the Armenians were committed by an Ottoman government, albeit a shadowy sub-section of that government.
There is no logical reason why a new republican administration, established in October 1923 in an act of revolutionary defiance of Ottoman power, should consider itself responsible for things done under the previous regime.
In fact, when the nationalist movement was founded in 1919, the climate of revulsion over the sufferings of the Armenians was so general that even the neo-nationalists were keen to distinguish themselves from the CUP.
Some see significance in the fact that the nationalist movement chose to rally round an army officer, Mustafa Kemal, who had never been anywhere near the places where the Armenians met their fate.
The very fact that the Turkish republic bears no formal responsibility for eliminating the Armenian presence in eastern Anatolia (for the simple reason that the republic did not exist when the atrocities occurred) has given some Turkish historians a flicker of hope: one day, the leaders of the republic will be able to face up to history's toughest questions about the Armenians, without feeling that to do so would undermine the very existence of their state.
The Bush administration recognized that the Turkish government was not involved with this issue which is being brought up to satisfy the political greed of the democratic sluts. By this resolution, they have offended an ally, hurt prospects of a peaceful resolution to the problem of Turkey going into Iran to destroy Kurdish raiders, and may endanger our troops by cutting off a major source of supplies and support. I applaud the democrats. Once again they have shown how much they care for our soldiers by stabbing them in the back and making the President look like the villian.

[XtrmWakeborder]

Well, the fockin turks (spelled intentionally with a small "t" to so the respect I have for these fine people), announced today they will pull their consulates out of the U.S..
Some here think this is a waste of time to acknowledge what happened, in the interest of keeping our relationships with turkey, mainly for the use of air bases, I have the answer to solve it all, lets send a few thousand troops to turkey, wipe out the population, put up an American flag and call it all good.
Christ, I guess I have the answer, lets all get together push for this, but lets not kill all the slave child labor they have over there making cheap junk products sold on the world markets.
Myself and my family never got to see any pictures of our family, that were murdered, since our grandparents were lucky enough to get out and come to the U.S..
Yah lets start a war on behalf of the armenian descendants against the descendants of the Ottomon empire because they won't recognize the atrosities. It doesn't make sense to do this when we had nothing to do with it. It only hurts us.

[BigBoyBlue]

Many ignorant people dont realize all the things us armenians have had to deal with as a race. They dont know about the genocide, they dont know about our ancestory and roots, and thus they shouldnt be talking. Armenians have done many things for this country.
on a side note, an Armenian, Kim Kardasian is going to be in Playboy next month.:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey, which is a key supply route to U.S. troops in Iraq, recalled its ambassador to Washington on Thursday and warned of serious repercussions if Congress labels the killing of Armenians by Turks a century ago as genocide.
Why not label it correctly. The genocide of 1.5 million Armenians by the Ottoman Empire.

[Seadog]

Many ignorant people dont realize all the things us armenians have had to deal with as a race. They dont know about the genocide, they dont know about our ancestory and roots, and thus they shouldnt be talking. Armenians have done many things for this country.
And you think Armenians are so much better than any other whatever? First off, genocide is a new term that is not really well defined. Anyone can claim genocide without being worried that they will be challenged. It is like blacks paying the slavery card. There is not even a full consensus that the death of the Armenians qualifies for genocide since it was mostly an attempt to eliminate an enemy.
Second, even at the worse scenario, it pales in comparison to the Holocaust, Stalin's purge and relocation, the WWII Japanese atrocities against the Chinese, Rwanda, Cambodia, Guatemala, Bosnians (two separate events)and many,many more. For example, in the 1780s, the French exterminated 500,000 of 800,000 black catholics in one territory. The Irish consider the famine that resulted from the British port blockade during big potato blight, to be genocide.
Finally, tell me what the Armenians have done that is not rivaled or bettered by the American Indians, Mexicans, English, Irish, Scots, French, Germans, Poles, Jews, etc. We are a mixing pot of nationalities. That the Armenians are good at working political connections is not something in their favor as far as I am concerned. You want a memorial, fine. You want to persecute Turkey for the actions of a small quasi-legal group of killers, screw it. I am getting tired of people that spend their energy trying to get revenge for the acts of a few, generations ago.

[KineticoH20]

And you think Armenians are so much better than any other whatever? First off, genocide is a new term that is not really well defined. Anyone can claim genocide without being worried that they will be challenged. It is like blacks paying the slavery card. There is not even a full consensus that the death of the Armenians qualifies for genocide since it was mostly an attempt to eliminate an enemy.
Second, even at the worse scenario, it pales in comparison to the Holocaust, Stalin's purge and relocation, the WWII Japanese atrocities against the Chinese, Rwanda, Cambodia, Guatemala, Bosnians (two separate events)and many,many more. For example, in the 1780s, the French exterminated 500,000 of 800,000 black catholics in one territory. The Irish consider the famine that resulted from the British port blockade during big potato blight, to be genocide.
Finally, tell me what the Armenians have done that is not rivaled or bettered by the American Indians, Mexicans, English, Irish, Scots, French, Germans, Poles, Jews, etc. We are a mixing pot of nationalities. That the Armenians are good at working political connections is not something in their favor as far as I am concerned. You want a memorial, fine. You want to persecute Turkey for the actions of a small quasi-legal group of killers, screw it. I am getting tired of people that spend their energy trying to get revenge for the acts of a few, generations ago.
I really enjoy the many different points of view and the varied discussion, however your thoughts on the matter seem a little shallow in my opinion, but that what makes a difference of opinion different in the USA ie...your family isn't killed for it.

[HavasuSelect]

Many ignorant people dont realize all the things us armenians have had to deal with as a race. They dont know about the genocide, they dont know about our ancestory and roots, and thus they shouldnt be talking. Armenians have done many things for this country.
on a side note, an Armenian, Kim Kardasian is going to be in Playboy next month.:D
I was waiting for you to get in on this.... what took you so long? Where you been?
You were prob too busy playing the Armenian race card.....

[KineticoH20]

interesting interview http://youtube.com/watch?v=PYEoJBHuNtk....

[DMOORE]

And you think Armenians are so much better than any other whatever? First off, genocide is a new term that is not really well defined. Anyone can claim genocide without being worried that they will be challenged. It is like blacks paying the slavery card. There is not even a full consensus that the death of the Armenians qualifies for genocide since it was mostly an attempt to eliminate an enemy.
Second, even at the worse scenario, it pales in comparison to the Holocaust, Stalin's purge and relocation, the WWII Japanese atrocities against the Chinese, Rwanda, Cambodia, Guatemala, Bosnians (two separate events)and many,many more. For example, in the 1780s, the French exterminated 500,000 of 800,000 black catholics in one territory. The Irish consider the famine that resulted from the British port blockade during big potato blight, to be genocide.
Finally, tell me what the Armenians have done that is not rivaled or bettered by the American Indians, Mexicans, English, Irish, Scots, French, Germans, Poles, Jews, etc. We are a mixing pot of nationalities. That the Armenians are good at working political connections is not something in their favor as far as I am concerned. You want a memorial, fine. You want to persecute Turkey for the actions of a small quasi-legal group of killers, screw it. I am getting tired of people that spend their energy trying to get revenge for the acts of a few, generations ago.
Wow. Seems like you have a lot of anger there buddy.
Darrell.

[KineticoH20]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L-yAkJIHFCg

[Scapegoat1]

is it true that christianity was originated in Armenia, some Armenian chick told me this.

[BajaMike]

We're not trying to change what happened in the past, all we're asking for is some recognition.
Will this "recognition" help our troops in Iraq? If not, I'm against it!:idea:
It's simple!

[DMOORE]

Will this "recognition" help our troops in Iraq? If not, I'm against it!:idea:
It's simple!
It won't make a bit of difference to our troops. The agreements that we have with Turkey for land and airspace use all comes down to money. That won't change.
Darrell.

[KineticoH20]

Not to be crude but if the acted like most Armenians do today back in the early 1900, kinda how you handled the problem.
Is it true that christianity was originated in Armenia, some Armenian chick told me this.
Armenia was the first country to adopt christianity as a national religon.

[KineticoH20]

Wow i seems kinda weird to have a inteligent give and take on hot boat without it turning into a pastie drunken brawl, not that there is anything wrong with that:D but the discussion is interesting, I probably have spent more time on the subject here than in the last 20 year:idea:

[MudPumper]

So, I live in Burbank, which as most of you know is RIGHT next to Glendale, the largest population of Armenians outside Armenia. I first off want to say that I feel for any race that has to deal with the horrible things they have had to deal with in the past.
Second, fine, recognize the events, call it whatever you want but lets NOT do it at a time when we have hundreds of thousands of OUR guys over in that area that relay HEAVILY on Turkey to be cooperative and helpful. Also I dont know if it is a genetic thing or what but from my dealings the Armenian race is the most demanding and rude group of people PER CAPITA I have encountered. Now, before everybody goes jumping on me calling me a racist or anything I want to say I know that the whole race is not that way. I have a few friends that are Armenian that are GREAT guys. Just from my experience they are the most of any group. I do know of QUITE a few families that con our government out of money and it is regularly discussed amongst many others. This I have been told by admitted frauds and it is more or less accepted in their circles.
So, I am indifferent to the entire bill but, do COMPLETELY DISAGREE on the TIMING of the passing of the bill.
Also, to recap, I am not racist. I do not believe that Armenians or any other race is inferior to another. I was just stating observations that I have made on my EXTREMELY numerous dealings with them.
You're not far off......There is a reason that Glendale has an Identity Theft/Fraud rate that is the highest in California and 6 times the national average. Glendale is known as the ID Theft Capital of the world. Not being racist......just stating the FACTS.

[Seadog]

No anger about Armenians, but about petty politics that harm our troops. The main fact is that while Armenians have contributed a lot to society, they are not better or worse than any other group with their contributions. The people responsible for the deaths of large numbers of Armenians are long dead. The organization which was in charge of the deaths, has been gone a long time. Even the Sultans of the Ottoman empire denounced them. If there was a petition to condemn the actions of CUP as a political group in 1915, I could see that.
Do not underestimate the amount of national pride at stake here. Turkey has been an ally, but not an overwhelming ally. And they are very concerned about the Kurdish problem, which we are preventing them from controlling. It has always been a problem with enemy guerillas using national borders to hide behind while committing murderous raids. In almost every case, it has resulted in the attacked nation making excurions into the geurillas hideout. We have stopped this from happening to the Kurds, but that will now change. If we have to send our troops to protect the Kurds, it could escalate into a conflict we cannot win. And the big problem is the conflict is just another of the countless ones that are keeping things in turmoil around the world. We are becoming a world where small groups are tearing apart the fabric that holds nations together. Fueled by the media and petty politicians. We should be fighting anything that promotes racial, cultural, or political fracturing.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

You're not far off......There is a reason that Glendale has an Identity Theft/Fraud rate that is the highest in California and 6 times the national average. Glendale is known as the ID Theft Capital of the world. Not being racist......just stating the FACTS.
It is also a fact that there is more insurance fraud in Glendale than any other city in the US.

[Lightning]

is it true that christianity was originated in Armenia, some Armenian chick told me this.
The orgins of Christianity is debatable. Armenians were the first country to adopt Christianity as it's official religion - circa 300.

[Baja Big Dog]

Yah lets start a war on behalf of the armenian descendants against the descendants of the Ottomon empire because they won't recognize the atrosities. It doesn't make sense to do this when we had nothing to do with it. It only hurts us.
So the Genocide never happened?
And its Armenian!!:mad:

[KineticoH20]

It is also a fact that there is more insurance fraud in Glendale than any other city in the US.
Instead of insinuating that Armenians are criminals, I have found them as industrious entrapenuers, im sure there are low lifes in any race, but I just don't see it in Armenians. By the way THESE ARE THE TOP CITIES FOR STAGED INSURANCE FRAUD LAST YEAR......
1. Miami, FL
2. Los Angeles, CA
3. Houston, TX
4. Chicago, IL
5. Philadelphia, PA
6. Tampa, FL
7. Cleveland, OH
8. Orlando, FL
9. New York, NY
10. Boston, MA

[Baja Big Dog]

And you think Armenians are so much better than any other whatever? First off, genocide is a new term that is not really well defined. So the murder of 1.5 million people never happened??Anyone can claim genocide without being worried that they will be challenged. What would you call it? Oh yea, it never happened!It is like blacks paying the slavery card. There is not even a full consensus that the death of the Armenians qualifies for genocide since it was mostly an attempt to eliminate an enemy.
Second, even at the worse scenario, it pales in comparison to the Holocaust, So it never happened? Thats an insult to the Jews, putting them in competition for who were treated worse!!Stalin's purge and relocation, the WWII Japanese atrocities against the Chinese, Rwanda, Cambodia, Guatemala, Bosnians (two separate events)and many,many more. For example, in the 1780s, the French exterminated 500,000 of 800,000 black catholics in one territory. The Irish consider the famine that resulted from the British port blockade during big potato blight, to be genocide. So the murder of 1.5 million people didnt happen?
Finally, tell me what the Armenians have done that is not rivaled or bettered by the American Indians, Mexicans, English, Irish, Scots, French, Germans, Poles, Jews, etc. Now that is the fricken dumbest statements made so far! We are a mixing pot of nationalities. That the Armenians are good at working political connections is not something in their favor as far as I am concerned. You want a memorial, fine. You want to persecute Turkey for the actions of a small quasi-legal group of killers, screw it. I am getting tired of people that spend their energy trying to get revenge for the acts of a few, generations ago. Your term "generations" may be somewhat accurate, but some of the babies murdered in 1915 could still be around today.
You seem adamant about the subject, and the denial of the facts, you are not a turk by any chance?

[KineticoH20]

No anger about Armenians, but about petty politics that harm our troops. The main fact is that while Armenians have contributed a lot to society, they are not better or worse than any other group with their contributions. The people responsible for the deaths of large numbers of Armenians are long dead. The organization which was in charge of the deaths, has been gone a long time. Even the Sultans of the Ottoman empire denounced them. If there was a petition to condemn the actions of CUP as a political group in 1915, I could see that.
Do not underestimate the amount of national pride at stake here. Turkey has been an ally, but not an overwhelming ally. And they are very concerned about the Kurdish problem, which we are preventing them from controlling. It has always been a problem with enemy guerillas using national borders to hide behind while committing murderous raids. In almost every case, it has resulted in the attacked nation making excurions into the geurillas hideout. We have stopped this from happening to the Kurds, but that will now change. If we have to send our troops to protect the Kurds, it could escalate into a conflict we cannot win. And the big problem is the conflict is just another of the countless ones that are keeping things in turmoil around the world. We are becoming a world where small groups are tearing apart the fabric that holds nations together. Fueled by the media and petty politicians. We should be fighting anything that promotes racial, cultural, or political fracturing.
this is not a new topic in our capital, it sprouts up every few years. I agree it is untimely, but so is history!

[KineticoH20]

It is also a fact that there is more insurance fraud in Glendale than any other city in the US.
It is also a FACT that one fourth of the population in Glendale is Armenian , so what your saying is they are responsible for the so called high ins fraud, Now I don't ever go to Glendale so it may be a shithole for all I know. But I do know a jackass when I hear one.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Instead of insinuating that Armenians are criminals, I have found them as industrious entrapenuers, im sure there are low lifes in any race, but I just don't see it in Armenians. By the way THESE ARE THE TOP CITIES FOR STAGED INSURANCE FRAUD LAST YEAR......
1. Miami, FL
2. Los Angeles, CA
3. Houston, TX
4. Chicago, IL
5. Philadelphia, PA
6. Tampa, FL
7. Cleveland, OH
8. Orlando, FL
9. New York, NY
10. Boston, MA
I was not insinuating that Armenians are criminals. I have been an insurance fraud investigator, in So Cal, for over 20 years and I speak from personal and industry experience. If you would care to check with the CA DOI, they will confirm my comment
Not sure where your figures came from. It is possible that Miami trumped Los Angeles last year. Glendale, would be included in the L.A. data. Also, I should have clarified by stating per capita.
Whether you want to accept this fact or not, there is a specific criminal element in the Glendale/Burbank communities, that focus on insurance companies. This element makes living by defrauding insurance companies. So much so that State Insurance Fraud investigators refer to this element as the "Armenian Connection".
The insurance fraud, I refer to, not only relates to staged collisions, it includes Body Shop fraud, receiving stolen property, (generally auto related) Auto theft, Medical and Legal fraud, etc. related to insurance.
The majority of the Armenians are fine, upstanding and hard working people. But there are Armenian underworld types operating insurance fraud operations all over Southern CA, that generally originate in the Glendale area.
Again, this is not meant as a slam of Armenians, only the few who operate outside the law. Their crime of choice is insurance fraud.
Because the Mafia was involved in much of the crime on the East Coast for many years, surely doesn't make all Italians, criminals.
Many in the Glendale area are aware of the existence of the Armenian connection.
Sorry if I offended anyone. This was not my intent.
It is also a FACT that one fourth of the population in Glendale is Armenian , so what your saying is they are responsible for the so called high ins fraud, Now I don't ever go to Glendale so it may be a shithole for all I know. But I do know a jackass when I hear one.
Glendale is one nicest areas in Southen California. Not sure where you get you figures that only 1/4 of the population of Glendale is Armenian. I believe this figure is very low.
As for for your other comment. There is no need. :)

[Seadog]

First off, the number who died is in dispute, so yes, the murder of 1.5 million may not have happen. The number ranges from 500,000 to 2 million, but separating those killed due to execution or relocation/starvation and those who were killed in conflict is difficult. That may not make any difference, but to say I deny it is ridiculous. I am saying that while there are numerous cases where the experts are in agreement as to genocide, this is one case where there is some major disagreement. The main ones calling it genocide are Armenians and others who are looking for political gains or revenge.
And it is not a competition. When you look at the more recent cases of true recognized genocide, we should be devoting our efforts there and preventing future acts like them. What happened a century ago is not pertinent if it causes conflicts or hurts our ability to join together in the future. I am all in favor of fighting for a good cause, but there is no good cause in this on-going spat.
And to my knowledge, there is not a Turk or Armenian bone in my body. My ancestry was Scot-Irish with a long and proud history full of highs and lows. We were once the finest light horse calvary in history, before having our leaders and lands destroyed by treachery. Later, after we had been scattered to the winds, we were decimated by famine caused by a conquering government. We are now throughout the world. We have fought for this nation in every war, and I can trace my history back to brothers that fought in the War Between the States. Even though my ancestors were betrayed by two countries, I do not spend my time in hatred of those countries, nor do I call for public accusations against them. I may condemn the acts of a few people that actually did the deed, but I am not going to insult the millions of good people that had nothing to do with it, nor did their ancestors.
Study the history of such acts, and you will find that they are the crimes of a few truly evil people that use the stupidity, fear, or sadism of people to continue their purges. The only way to stop such acts is to educate people in a manner where they can see a better future and accept cultural/religeous differences. Recriminations is doing just the opposite.

[Havasu1986]

Did anyone read in todays O.C. Register about a "U.S. House panel approved a resolution labeling the World War I era killings of Armenians by Turks genocide." News section page 25.

[KineticoH20]

[QUOTE=ULTRA26 # 1;2839301]I was not insinuating that Armenians are criminals. I have been an insurance fraud investigator, in So Cal, for over 20 years and I speak from personal and industry experience. If you would care to check with the CA DOI, they will confirm my comment
Not sure where your figures came from. It is possible that Miami trumped Los Angeles last year. Glendale, would be included in the L.A. data. Also, I should have clarified by stating per capita.
Whether you want to accept this fact or not, there is a specific criminal element in the Glendale/Burbank communities, that focus on insurance companies. This element makes living by defrauding insurance companies. So much so that State Insurance Fraud investigators refer to this element as the "Armenian Connection".
The insurance fraud, I refer to, not only relates to staged collisions, it includes Body Shop fraud, receiving stolen property, (generally auto related) Auto theft, Medical and Legal fraud, etc. related to insurance.
The majority of the Armenians are fine, upstanding and hard working people. But there are Armenian underworld types operating insurance fraud operations all over Southern CA, that generally originate in the Glendale area.
Again, this is not meant as a slam of Armenians, only the few who operate outside the law. Their crime of choice is insurance fraud.
Because the Mafia was involved in much of the crime on the East Coast for many years, surely doesn't make all Italians, criminals.
Many in the Glendale area are aware of the existence of the Armenian connection.
Sorry if I offended anyone. This was not my intent.
Glendale is one nicest areas in Southen California. Not sure where you get you figures that only 1/4 of the population of Glendale is Armenian. I believe this figure is very low.
As for for your other comment. I suggest that you look in the mirror the next time you feel the need to revert to name calling.[/QUOT
Now you must have some taste, after all you own an Ultra;) Actually I do consider myself a jackass at times so no hard feelings there. My point is this is a thread about the Armenian genocide, and you turn it into the armenians in Glendale are commiting an alarming amount of ins fraud. It's the same thing you have been complaining about in the poitical forum, it just seemed hypocritical. Now, I do know there is a Armenian mafia just like there are similar elements in any race, however there are only around 50,000 Armenians in Glendale some of which are old,and children. So if I do the math the rest are racking up one hell of a crime spree. I would love to see the data on this, feel free to pm it to me. By the way my facts come from the city of Glendale.

[KineticoH20]

First off, the number who died is in dispute, so yes, the murder of 1.5 million may not have happen. The number ranges from 500,000 to 2 million, but separating those killed due to execution or relocation/starvation and those who were killed in conflict is difficult. That may not make any difference, but to say I deny it is ridiculous. I am saying that while there are numerous cases where the experts are in agreement as to genocide, this is one case where there is some major disagreement. The main ones calling it genocide are Armenians and others who are looking for political gains or revenge.
And it is not a competition. When you look at the more recent cases of true recognized genocide, we should be devoting our efforts there and preventing future acts like them. What happened a century ago is not pertinent if it causes conflicts or hurts our ability to join together in the future. I am all in favor of fighting for a good cause, but there is no good cause in this on-going spat.
And to my knowledge, there is not a Turk or Armenian bone in my body. My ancestry was Scot-Irish with a long and proud history full of highs and lows. We were once the finest light horse calvary in history, before having our leaders and lands destroyed by treachery. Later, after we had been scattered to the winds, we were decimated by famine caused by a conquering government. We are now throughout the world. We have fought for this nation in every war, and I can trace my history back to brothers that fought in the War Between the States. Even though my ancestors were betrayed by two countries, I do not spend my time in hatred of those countries, nor do I call for public accusations against them. I may condemn the acts of a few people that actually did the deed, but I am not going to insult the millions of good people that had nothing to do with it, nor did their ancestors.
Study the history of such acts, and you will find that they are the crimes of a few truly evil people that use the stupidity, fear, or sadism of people to continue their purges. The only way to stop such acts is to educate people in a manner where they can see a better future and accept cultural/religeous differences. Recriminations is doing just the opposite.
Seadog I completley understand your point of view. Being Armenian and Greek I relish my heritage but am an American through and though. I personally don't hate Turks and have no I'll will twards them whatsoever.
I have spent more time in the last few days revisiting this subject than I have in 20 years. It is just a very interesting part of this century and just so happens to involve my ancestary. I accept the varied views on the subject, wheather I am in agreement or not. It is history and the Armenian people want it acknowledged just like the holocost.

[MudPumper]

The numbers quoted are from the 2000 census which stated 27% Armenian. Today the numbers are closer to 40% Armenian in the City.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Now you must have some taste, after all you own an Ultra;) Actually I do consider myself a jackass at times so no hard feelings there. My point is this is a thread about the Armenian genocide, and you turn it into the armenians in Glendale are commiting an alarming amount of ins fraud. It's the same thing you have been complaining about in the poitical forum, it just seemed hypocritical. Now, I do know there is a Armenian mafia just like there are similar elements in any race, however there are only around 50,000 Armenians in Glendale some of which are old,and children. So if I do the math the rest are racking up one hell of a crime spree. I would love to see the data on this, feel free to pm it to me. By the way my facts come from the city of Glendale.
You're right I probabaly shouldn't have followed someone elses lead off topic.
The post that preceded mine made comments about Glendale/Armenian ID theft and fraud, which played heavily in my comments
You're not far off......There is a reason that Glendale has an Identity Theft/Fraud rate that is the highest in California and 6 times the national average. Glendale is known as the ID Theft Capital of the world. Not being racist......just stating the FACTS.
I have no reason to invent what I commented. In the past I have personally experienced one of these criminals with 22 different ID's This is the norm for the people that I spoke of. Insurance Fraud is big business, as is combating it. Try to understand, there is no math when you are dealing multiple ID's and names.
Data from the US census, Glendale Armenian population is 41% and 52% Middle Eastern.
You can doubt me if you would like, it's fine. Not going to take it any further as my comment didn't follow the topic of the this thread.
BTW, there is an abundance of information about this on the net.
Please clarify the hypocrisy from the other forum., Please

[MudPumper]

You're right I probabaly shouldn't have followed someone elses lead off topic.
The post that preceded mine made comments about Glendale/Armenian ID theft and fraud, which played heavily in my comments
I have no reason to invent what I commented. In the past I have personally experienced one of these criminals with 22 different ID's This is the norm for the people that I spoke of. Insurance Fraud is big business, as is combating it. Try to understand, there is no math when you are dealing multiple ID's and names.
Data from the US census, Glendale Armenian population is 41% and 52% Middle Eastern.
You can doubt me if you would like, it's fine. No going to take it any further as my comment didn't follow the topic of the this thread.
BTW, there is an abundance of information about this on the net.
This is true. There is a reason the GPD has the top Financial Crimes Bureau in the country and State Insurance Investigators have an office at their station. Again, not saying Armenians are crooks, but Financial Crime is their bread and butter. Yes this thread got off topic.....so back to the Genocide discussion.;)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

This is true. There is a reason the GPD has the top Financial Crimes Bureau in the country and State Insurance Investigators have an office at their station. Again, not saying Armenians are crooks, but Financial Crime is their bread and butter. Yes this thread got off topic.....so back to the Genocide discussion.;)
Mike,
I am fully awrere of this as well.

[DMOORE]

Again, not saying Armenians are crooks, but Financial Crime is their bread and butter. Yes this thread got off topic.....so back to the Genocide discussion.;)
After a comment like that, all of your others make sense. It's very sad to see racism so alive and well in the US.
Darrell.

[Baja Big Dog]

Are you saying there's racism on ***boat? Frankly, I've never seen it.
:D :eek: :D

[Havasu1986]

Did anyone read in todays O.C. Register about a "U.S. House panel approved a resolution labeling the World War I era killings of Armenians by Turks genocide." News section page 25.
No replies to this. I quess insurance fraud is a more important topic then why BBD first started this thread. If it wasn't for this thread, I wouldn't have even read the article. I never knew about Armenian genocide. Hell, I was a classmate of KineticoH2O at Bellfower. I figured he was Dutch like the rest of us. :D

[Havasu1986]

Did you go to school with Topless? :D
No..I was class of 78'..not 68'. :eek: :D

[Baja Big Dog]

A couple weeks ago, she said she was Dutch in a thread. I popped out that classic Austin Powers movie line,
She berated me and when I told her it was from a movie, she berated me for watching stupid movies. :D :D
Austin Powers didnt make a bad movie!!!:D

[Seadog]

Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000 (the purges)
Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians in WWII)
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians
This is one person's numbers, but it is about as accurate as any. My only complaint is that he picks one leader as responsible. He also is liberal with the call of genocide, when in many cases, he is blaming the leader of a nation for civilians killed during warfare. For example, he accuses Bresnev for the deaths of 900,000 Afgans and calls it genocide. The truth is probably more like overly aggressive reaction to the guerilla attacks by troops tired of being treated like our troops are being treated now. Without a strong media coverage, it would be easy for the military to be trigger happy. And don't forget, those at the receiving end have a tendency to inflate accusations. Often a dozen insurgents will be called a hundred women and children.
My main point is that while this is only the atrocities in the 20th century, it may be only getting worse. Of this list, three were in WWII, and four were after WWII. And if you look at the remainder of the list, many more are going on over the past few decades. And most have not been fully counted because mass murder is done in such a way that eliminates the ability to keep track of the numbers. If I seem not to care about 1915 atrocities against the Armenians and Assyrians, it is because keeping the anger of past deeds leads to idiots committing new atrocities.

[KineticoH20]

No replies to this. I quess insurance fraud is a more important topic then why BBD first started this thread. If it wasn't for this thread, I wouldn't have even read the article. I never knew about Armenian genocide. Hell, I was a classmate of KineticoH2O at Bellfower. I figured he was Dutch like the rest of us. :D
You mean freki-dicki-dutch:D How you doin bro?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

No replies to this. I quess insurance fraud is a more important topic then why BBD first started this thread. If it wasn't for this thread, I wouldn't have even read the article. I never knew about Armenian genocide. Hell, I was a classmate of KineticoH2O at Bellfower. I figured he was Dutch like the rest of us. :D
Sorry if I offended anyone. This was not my intent.
Again, I apologize