Valve adjustment and TDC

[delemorte]

So i am getting ready to adjust my valves and all the info i find is that you need to bring the gap to zero then give it one 360 degree turn down and your done.
However this requires you to be at top dead center. Ive read about sticking crap in your plug hole as well as gas tubes etc however what is the bet way?
Is there some tool i can buy or borrow? I dont mind buying a tool of some sort if it insures im doing this properly.

[Moneypitt]

TDC is a very broad term. I think it is apparent you have not degreed the cam and/or located actual TDC. Based on those assumptions, simply put your thumb/finger over the plug hole of #1 and crank the motor over, either with the starter or by hand. When the compression pushes your thumb off stop and manually bring the timing mark to zero, and you're as close as you're going to get. Then rotate the engine 90 degrees, set the next cylinder in the firing order, another 90* and so on until you have rotated the engine through the entire firing order. (2 complete rotations will bring you back to number one.) It also sounds as though you're working with hyd lifters. Are the lifters pumped up? If not, things get a little dicey. When I set valves with hyd lifters, I try to set them before the intake is installed. That way you can see the lifter deflection as you adjust. I think a good guess is about .020 to .050 poppet deflection. If totally assembled you may want to pump up oil pressure prior to adjusting and this may require several re pumps and some confusion as to where you left off........MP

[H20MOFO]

How bout, just loosen them all,start at tdc and zero lash the loose ones(lift up and down on the push rod till there is no more up-dn movement) and no more. Turn the motor 90* like moneypitt said, zero lash the loose ones again.turn another 90* and repeat. By about the 5th 90* they should all be tight(zeroed). Then(only then) take them all down 3/4 of a turn. It is a hyd right?(not solid)

[Speed955]

Before you crank those down with a 360 degree turn read this first. Pay special attention to this section in the article: What about the actual adjustment procedure you ask?
http://www.centuryperformance.com/valveadjustment.asp
The easiest way to find TDC is with a degree wheel and a piston stop. There are a lot of sharp people on here that I am sure will chime in as well with tip's or tricks they know.

[Speed955]

Moneypitt,
to funny "Based on those assumptions, simply put your thumb/finger over the plug hole of #1 and crank the motor over, either with the starter or by hand. When the compression pushes your thumb off stop" my dad taught me this method years ago. I said to use a piston stop and degree wheel, but to be honest this is the method I use 99% of the time. Although I have upgraded to a remote start switch:)

[Moneypitt]

Before you crank those down with a 360 degree turn read this first. Pay special attention to this section in the article: What about the actual adjustment procedure you ask?
http://www.centuryperformance.com/valveadjustment.asp
The easiest way to find TDC is with a degree wheel and a piston stop. There are a lot of sharp people on here that I am sure will chime in as well with tip's or tricks they know.
I think he may have bypassed that part. A little late to be using a piston stop unless he goes in thru the sparkplug hole.......IMO he is dealing with a stocker and can get away with the basics.....I would shy away from a full turn though, maybe 1/2 turn max.........MP

[delemorte]

All great responces guys... thanks
yes this motor is already assembled. Ill pull a valve cover when i get home and post some pics to make sure i have clearly illistrated my situation.
thanks again to everyone who has chimed in.
BTW the thumb over the plug hole just seems kind of crude for me (I just dont want to make any mistakes). I was hoping to have a device that i could stick in the plug hole that would tell me when each piston was at the top.

[delemorte]

Before you crank those down with a 360 degree turn read this first. Pay special attention to this section in the article: What about the actual adjustment procedure you ask?
http://www.centuryperformance.com/valveadjustment.asp
The easiest way to find TDC is with a degree wheel and a piston stop. There are a lot of sharp people on here that I am sure will chime in as well with tip's or tricks they know.
Thats a great link. thats what i was looking for.. thanks so much... ill still post pics so you guys cna chime in if you see anythign wrong..
BTW i have a freind comeing to help me with this who has done this before. I know enough to know when i need help.

[H20MOFO]

I don't think being at exactly tdc is all that critical, and you you will only be able to adj. like 1/4 of em there. Then rotate 90* ect. All your doing is adjusting them when the lifter is not on the lobe(you want it on the flat part of the cam)

[GUGS102]

Make sure you have rotella diesel oil in the motor and a bottle of GM EOS or you can kiss that cam goodbye. Also make sure you break it in properly. I always use the 2500 for 25 minutes just cause it's easy to remember.
If you do this incorrectly, that entire motor will be coming apart along with your wallet. Make sure you get the proper help for the valve adjustment and break in procedures.
Gugs

[delemorte]

Make sure you have rotella diesel oil in the motor and a bottle of GM EOS or you can kiss that cam goodbye. Also make sure you break it in properly. I always use the 2500 for 25 minutes just cause it's easy to remember.
If you do this incorrectly, that entire motor will be coming apart along with your wallet. Make sure you get the proper help for the valve adjustment and break in procedures.
Gugs
Oh yeah man. i know i dont know enough to do this alone... i got help coming. I just dont want them to show up and me to have a stupid look on my face. i at least want to be helpfull.
I pulled a cover and this is what is underneath.
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/10/28819311655.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6883746)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/10/28819311661.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6883745)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/10/28819311584.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6883744)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/10/28819311574.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6883742)

[Sleeper CP]

If you have the room and a friend pull all of the spark plugs and turn it over by hand it a screw driver in the spark plug hole. Keep the screwdriver straight you will feel when the piston tops out, it will dwell and then start down. After you take it through the cycle a couple of times you can kind of figure out the dwell time(degrees of crank rotation). About 1/2 of it should be close to TDC, I think:idea: Or close enough.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[Moneypitt]

Make sure you have rotella diesel oil in the motor and a bottle of GM EOS or you can kiss that cam goodbye. Also make sure you break it in properly. I always use the 2500 for 25 minutes just cause it's easy to remember.
If you do this incorrectly, that entire motor will be coming apart along with your wallet. Make sure you get the proper help for the valve adjustment and break in procedures.
Gugs
It doesn't look exactly like a fresh motor......Neatly assembled with rust under the V/C gasket?............And please don't stick any screwdrivers in the plug holes.......Real quick way to waste a piston......Just watch the #1 valvetrain. Intake opens, closes, the NEXT time the mark comes up is firing #1 TDC.........Do ONE cylinder every 90*, not several........MP

[cfm]

Personally, I do it this way as you are 100 % guaranteed to have the valve/rocker arm you are going to adjust on the cam's base circle:
Rotate engine in it's running rotation direction so that a cylinders intake valve is just about closed (rocker tip almost all the way up) and then adjust the exhaust rocker. (Hyd or hyd roller 1/2-3/4 turn.)
Roate engine so that the exhaust valve is just starting to open (rocker tip just starts to press down) and adjust that's cylinders intake valve.
===========================
Valves are only open at same time during overlap. IE: exhaust valve is closing and intake is opening. Therefore, the above sequence I do above totally removes any chance that the lifter is not on the cams base circle.

[Outlaw]

I was taught from an old school NHRA engine builder to use the ICE method:
when the Intake valve just starts to Close adjust the Exhaust valve
When the Exhaust valve just starts to Open set the Intake
Valve
Maybe some cam guru can explain why this works.

[cfm]

Oh, and to set your distributor to start your engine instantly let me add this:
When #1 cylinders intake valve has just completely closed (rocker tip comes to full up position) you are getting very near TDC for ignition. Look at balancer and slowly rotate engine in normal running rotation until the damper's line is at say 10 degrees. Install/adjust distributor so that the rotor is lined up exactly with #1 cylinders post in cap.

[cfm]

I was taught from an old school NHRA engine builder to use the ICE method:
when the Intake valve just starts to Close adjust the Exhaust valve
When the Exhaust valve just starts to Open set the Intake
Valve
Maybe some cam guru can explain why this works.
No cam guru but I did just answer your question above.
And here's a pic of cam events to further show this:

[Moneypitt]

I was taught from an old school NHRA engine builder to use the ICE method:
when the Intake valve just starts to Close adjust the Exhaust valve
When the Exhaust valve just starts to Open set the Intake
Valve
Maybe some cam guru can explain why this works.
Works much better with solids but, IMO, leaves too many openings for errors..... Many here will say it is the desired way to be sure you are on the heel of the lobe, but as an old OD grinder I can say for certain you can not grind the heel out of round.....TDC is a safe, for sure way to adjust, the only critical part is the 90* (+/- 10* with hyd lifters) rotation each time, and in the correct direction. MP

[Sleeper CP]

............And please don't stick any screwdrivers in the plug holes.......Real quick way to waste a piston......Just watch the #1 valvetrain. Intake opens, closes, the NEXT time the mark comes up is firing #1 TDC.........Do ONE cylinder every 90*, not several........MP
That's why I told him to turn it over by hand with out any plugs in it. If he or anyone can waste a piston doing that .. then I don't know what to say:(
I was taught from an old school NHRA engine builder to use the ICE method:
when the Intake valve just starts to Close adjust the Exhaust valve
When the Exhaust valve just starts to Open set the Intake
Valve
Maybe some cam guru can explain why this works.
Was going to mention this, but went the "K.I.S.S" approach with the screwdriver or even small piece of saftey wire to check TDC, because you only have to find TDC 8 times you have to do the ICE method 16 times. He is new at this remember.And with a hydraulic cam depending on pre-load will the Ice appoarch be any more accurate.
Lastly, I have run the ICE approach on our mechanical roller cam's several times and I have just set the lash at TDC several times. Either way they are within .001 at .026 or .028 lash. Close enough.
Just my .02
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[delemorte]

hey guys these are all good responces and i appreciate all of them. Ill be sure to run all of these buy they guys helpin me out.
The rust on the gasket kind of shocked me too. its just slight surface rust and i think its because the cover was not on super tight. I know the engine was just put back together but since it was shipped to me i dont know really how long ago the actual assembly took place. Could have been weeks or months. No way for me to know for sure.
My dad gave me all of this so i dont have 100% of the entire story.

[H20MOFO]

If the idea is to adjust the valve when it on it's base circle,(not on th up-or down stroke of the lobe) who cares where tdc is? (exactly tdc)?

[delemorte]

If the idea is to adjust the valve when it on it's base circle,(not on th up-or down stroke of the lobe) who cares where tdc is? (exactly tdc)?
That point was brought up before and man did it make alot of sense. as long as its not on that lobe then both valves should be closed and i can adjust them then. I should only need to find TDC on the first piston in order to confirm timing is correct. Rather ignition sequence. i know timing is was a bad word to use there. but im a rookie
That is if i read all that right.

[H20MOFO]

Wow thats good to know I can adjust all my valves at tdc??? I guess i've been in the garage too long with the paint gun.

[GofastRacer]

Every cam MFG tells you to it this way wonder why, no matter where the cam is at the lifter is always going to be on the heel of the cam, not to mention it being super simple and quick to do!.. Who cares about TDC!..

[GofastRacer]

Wow thats good to know I can adjust all my valves at tdc??? I guess i've been in the garage too long with the paint gun.
Hey, them paint fumes will get to ya every time!..:D :D :D

[Moneypitt]

If the idea is to adjust the valve when it on it's base circle,(not on th up-or down stroke of the lobe) who cares where tdc is? (exactly tdc)?
Ah, no.........
That point was brought up before and man did it make alot of sense. as long as its not on that lobe then both valves should be closed and i can adjust them then. I should only need to find TDC on the first piston in order to confirm timing is correct. Rather ignition sequence. i know timing is was a bad word to use there. but im a rookie
That is if i read all that right.
ah, no.....
Hell, just torque 'em down. About 60Lbs should get it.......This thread has dropped into the toilet, fast
...........If you have no clue how to do what he is trying to do, please don't confuse him with bad information.........MP

[H20MOFO]

I guess we do it different?

[SmokinLowriderSS]

If the idea is to adjust the valve when it on it's base circle,(not on th up-or down stroke of the lobe) who cares where tdc is? (exactly tdc)?
Exactly.
If it is even CLOSE to TDC on the compression stroke, the lifters are on the base circle of the camshaft, and are AT LEAST 45 or 50* away from ANY opening inputs.
Get even close to TDC on cyl. #1, set BOTH valves (PER YOUR LIFTER MFR INSTRUCTIONS (I have never seen any spec a full turn, I remember GM factory specing 3/4 turn a loooong time ago, my Isky's spec 1/4 turn)), then turn 90* and set the next cyl. in the firing order. Repeat as required to get to all 8.
Simple. Easy. Someone do explain to me how it isn't foolproof.
Why does this task have to be more complex than it has to be???

[GofastRacer]

I remember GM factory specing 3/4 turn a loooong time ago, my Isky's spec 1/4 turn)),
Ideal is 1/2 turn for daily driver, 1/4 turn for any high performance stuff!..

[H20MOFO]

Thank you Smokin-ss.

[Moneypitt]

I guess we do it different?
Post #2.........
TDC is a very broad term. I think it is apparent you have not degreed the cam and/or located actual TDC. Based on those assumptions, simply put your thumb/finger over the plug hole of #1 and crank the motor over, either with the starter or by hand. When the compression pushes your thumb off stop and manually bring the timing mark to zero, and you're as close as you're going to get. Then rotate the engine 90 degrees, set the next cylinder in the firing order, another 90* and so on until you have rotated the engine through the entire firing order. (2 complete rotations will bring you back to number one.) It also sounds as though you're working with hyd lifters. Are the lifters pumped up? If not, things get a little dicey. When I set valves with hyd lifters, I try to set them before the intake is installed. That way you can see the lifter deflection as you adjust. I think a good guess is about .020 to .050 poppet deflection. If totally assembled you may want to pump up oil pressure prior to adjusting and this may require several re pumps and some confusion as to where you left off........MP

[cfm]

MP - reinforces why GM turned to non-adjustable rockers for the Gen V and VI's...huh ? LOL. There is some crazy stuff on this thread...IMO.
delemorte - just go to some cam manufacturers web sites - Comp, Crane, ISKY, etc, and find out how they want you to adjust the valves, and pick the one you are more comfortable with the understanding of the instructions. There are a few correct ways to do this.
Stop listening to our replies on this thread for it will be hard to know which are good or bad ways.

[River Rat 005]

Come on guys, this is basicly a stock motor not a pro stock. If he adjusts them at TDC he will be fine. Trying to adjust them to within .0000001 of exact, isn't going to be noticable on the water.

[delemorte]

Hey guys thanks for all the help. I got someone to assist me (with experience) as i understand i dont want to F this up and do something drastic.
I know there are 80 different ways to do everything and wanted to thank all of you for your various input.
When we get her adjusted and cranked ill post video..
thanks again.
Del,

[Moneypitt]

Those rockers look dry. Pour oil onto each one of them prior to starting the engine, lots of oil, flood them with oil, then put the covers back on, quickly...MP

[shaun]

my book had me find TDC on #1 (both valves closed) then adjust a number of intake and exhaust valves.. Then had me rotate another 360 and adjust the rest. I'm not running hyd lifters though, mine is a solid roller setup.

[H20MOFO]

IMO the key to get rid of the whole is the lifter pumped up or not thing. is make sure they are not(loosen em all up) drink a beer let em sit ove nite turn the motor over whatever, then zero lash em to with whatever method your good with(outlaws made alot of sense too) then( and only then) take em all!!
down a half or whatever(imo when you tighten up the locks it kind of ,backs em off).

[SmokinLowriderSS]

my book had me find TDC on #1 (both valves closed) then adjust a number of intake and exhaust valves.. Then had me rotate another 360 and adjust the rest. I'm not running hyd lifters though, mine is a solid roller setup.
I did this way, which seems to be just fine for short-duration "stock" engines. My 454 ran fine, but when I re-did it a month or so later, 1 at a time, I gained about 150RPM. Since I am running a 280* total duration, I have to believe that some of those lifters on the 1/2 & 1/2 set were on the ramps, and so got not quite correct adjustment. Adjustment that was sufficiently off as to cost me a decent ammount of HP.
I am running hydraulics.

[H20MOFO]

I'm here to learn, Smokin when you say a # of them (adj. at tdc), all ,half ??? and if you rotate 360*(On the balancer) is that 180* on the cam and you can do the balance of them there? I don't know what i do works for me now ,but i'm thinkin of upgrading to a solid roller soon. so if there is another way or something better i just want to know. That seems amazing too me you could adjust all your valves that easy. (instead of 90* 90* 90* ect)

[Moneypitt]

my book had me find TDC on #1 (both valves closed) then adjust a number of intake and exhaust valves.. Then had me rotate another 360 and adjust the rest. I'm not running hyd lifters though, mine is a solid roller setup.
Won't work....You're leaving a great deal on the table......MP

[Moneypitt]

I'm here to learn, Smokin when you say a # of them (adj. at tdc), all ,half ??? and if you rotate 360*(On the balancer) is that 180* on the cam and you can do the balance of them there? I don't know what i do works for me now ,but i'm thinkin of upgrading to a solid roller soon. so if there is another way or something better i just want to know. That seems amazing too me you could adjust all your valves that easy. (instead of 90* 90* 90* ect)
The "Motors" manual way works OK for grocery getters, but that is about all it works for...........TDC each cylinder............I can tell you without a doubt, .002 means a bunch in lash.....As much as 300 RPMs up top, or a total tiger down low, depending on which way you go..........Valve lash has an effect on cam event timing, and cam event timing is everything..........MP

[cyclone]

E-O-I-C............Exhaust Opening Intake Closing
As soon as the exhaust valve begins to open set the lash on the intake valve. After the intake valve begins closing then lash the exhaust valve. You'll be on the base circle both times when doing so. You can lash the valves for each cylinder in any order you like using this method.

[H20MOFO]

I'D of thought rollers had steeper ramps therefore less overlap, in other words wouldn't a roller cam "spend" more time on the base circle (therefore eaiser to adj.)than a flat?????

[Moneypitt]

I'D of thought rollers had steeper ramps therefore less overlap, in other words wouldn't a roller cam "spend" more time on the base circle (therefore eaiser to adj.)than a flat?????
No, I don't think so. A roller has to start the event sooner because the "wheel" sees the event later (C/L) than a flat tappet type, (edge)......

[H20MOFO]

Yeh ,I thought I deleted that last post when it comes to rollers I have zero experience. I just figured thats why you could get so much lift an still have good vacumn.(sp)

[Moneypitt]

Yeh ,I thought I deleted that last post when it comes to rollers I have zero experience. I just figured thats why you could get so much lift an still have good vacumn.(sp)
Just one more post here.......Remember @ 6000 RPMs every valve is opening and closing 50 TIMES A SECOND.....50 TIMES A SECOND........Valve timing,
opening/closing rates, spring pressure, rocker stud support, spring dampening, seat to valve angles.........Every little bit of precision counts. It is quite critical to have all the valves doing exactly the same thing, at exactly the same time relative to rotation of the engine. For these reasons the "lash" adjustment must be absolutly perfect......Not so much with hyd cams, but you start sluffing off the adjustments on a performance roller and you may as well have a hydrolic.......50 TIMES A SECOND @ 6K......Imagine 7500........MP

[jkh04200]

I use the #1 cylinder TDC rotate 90 and do #8 etc. Two full rotations of the crank to do all cylinders. BUT!!!
Nobody mentioned marking the balancer first. I have to measure the balancer and divide by 4 to get 90* intervals

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I use the #1 cylinder TDC rotate 90 and do #8 etc. Two full rotations of the crank to do all cylinders. BUT!!!
Nobody mentioned marking the balancer first. I have to measure the balancer and divide by 4 to get 90* intervals
I suppose you could, BUT, I fail to see where it gains you anything over a 90-degree sweep of a break-over bar.
Just exactly what happens if you are off a degree, or 10, or even 20? Just how far off do you have to be, from TDC, to GET TO a ramp on the cam?

[455Rocket]

ah, no.....
Hell, just torque 'em down. About 60Lbs should get it.......This thread has dropped into the toilet, fast
Hell ya... just get an Olds!! :D
You guys are making my head hurt... for what it's worth im with MP on his theory... I've seen my days of rods goin' through valve covers :eek:

[H20MOFO]

Anyone ever owned a 455 and had to but different pushrods?:confused:

[Moneypitt]

Anyone ever owned a 455 and had to but different pushrods?:confused:
Sure, Mondelo adjustable pushrods, almost a requirement to build a performance Olds........MP

[H20MOFO]

I didn't buy adj pushrods but I did buy an adj rocker arm kit out of summitt that worked pretty good.