Damn 455......... POS

[dgie]

Well took the boat out today and now I have water in the oil...again. This will be the third time for this motor. I am not sure if it is a blown head gasket or what. Hopefully not a cracked block. The motor was running like shit thats when I descided to check the dipstick sure enough water. Well if this motor is crap, I think I will cut my losses and maybe either switch to chevy big block or small block. I like the small block for a couple of reasons. One is for the fuel economy and another is because you can rev them higher. One drawback is torque. What kind of speeds could I expect to achieve wth a SBC coupled with a 12wj does anyone know. The Boat is relatively light, not sure on exact figures though and it is very low profile.

[Floored]

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0306_406/ try reading this very mild buildup eek! this engine really dont got squat for parts but it would probably out run ( dare I say it ) a mild 455 olds and last a while too. just a thought

[hot for teacher]

I did a 383 for my heavy family boat. Nothing particularly earth-shattering (10:1, Comp 270 Marine, S/r Torquer heads, forged bottom,RPM Air Gap, Bigs 750 vacuum,etc). It dynoed at 400 HP at 5400, over 400 ft/lbs from 2500 through 5200. It pusghes me at about 60 which acceptable acceleration. Its certainly no Rat, but planty good and bullet-proof. I just wanted to boat!! Steve

[FastRat1]

ck out the ZZ4 crate engines from Summit raceing
www.summitracing.com (http://www.summitracing.com)
Ron

[AZKC]

Mine is still in time out, I'm on my third engine this year also. Starting to think about getting going on it but not quite yet.
I feel your pain :cool:
KC

[victorfb]

oh crap, i am so sorry to hear about your missfortune dgie. i cant imagine the frustration your dealing with. i really thought you were going to beat it this time. it seemed like you were really taking your time, researching all you could, and taking each step with patience and doing it right. and the suka just craps out again. DAMN.
i can understand why you want to trash the project and swap to chevy, just remember it can happen there too. as for the small VS big blocks, i would go ahead and do the BBC. new parts are expensive for both (more so for BBC)but im betting you will be able to find ALOT more used parts for the BBC than you would the small block. it might actually be cheaper in the long run. motor mounts, headers/logs, driveline couplers, ect ect ect. id think you would have to almost buy all new for the small block.
i know you just want to yank the 455 and toss it, but i would first find out what went wrong and then wiegh the options. good luck man, and let us know what you find out.

[malcolm]

Good advise, I'm with victorfb!
Only problem my Olds is giving me is exhaust leaks. I think my logs have been surfaced too many times.

[victorfb]

ive got an extra set of logs here if yours are unsalvageable. with risers still atached.

[txboatnut]

I would check the timing cover or the water pump block off. That is where I found my leak.

[Taylorman]

malcolm:
Good advise, I'm with victorfb!
Only problem my Olds is giving me is exhaust leaks. I think my logs have been surfaced too many times. Malcom,
I was fighting exhaust leaks and recently bought some Red Loctite brand gasket sealant and used it on my exhaust. I works great, no more leaks. I got a deal on a case. Let me know if you can't find any.

[dgie]

Floored sorry I did not get a chance to call you. I was down at my sisters house pulling the anchor out of the boat, sorry the engine.Thanks to everyone for their uplifting. Well anyways I tore into the motor and for starters I pulled the plugs 2 were missing their electrodes. I then pulled the lifter before pulling the heads and there were pits and rust on 4 of them, not sure what to make of that I do not think rust can set in over night. I then pulled the heads and the pistons looked fine. I then spun the motor over and checked the bearings. They all looked fine except one had a scratch to the copper, maybe a piece of sand got in there or something. I called a buddy and he gave me a likely scenario. I will run it past yall tell me what you think. I took the boat out that day and was playing with the advance the motor was running ok. I may have retarded it a little bit, the motor did not have power and when I slowed down it popped. After that the motor ran pretty rough. The carb was only reading 3 psi at 4300 rpms WOT. After telling him all this he said that what possibly hapened is that the motor in the begining was leaning out too much due to the lack of fuel. It blew the head gasket which would account for the water in the oil. My plans now are to put the motor back together to include the new lifters and see if I get more water in the oil. Tell me what yall think, make sense or? they should have called these motors glass instead of rockets. They are way too easy to break.

[Floored]

take a close look at the head gasket and block and head surfaces eek! to see evidence of failure :mad: look at intake manifold and heads for possible water leaks at coolant passages. What kind of head gaskets were you using? 3 psi is loooow and retarded timing drops power and builds more cylinder heat. could nip a plug or two. did you find any water in any cylinders? How much water in oil? Maybe borrow a straight edge to double check block and heads before you button it up. when you pulled the lifters did you see the restrictors? were the lifters pitted on the bottom and if so did the cam pit also? after you bolt on the heads set your intake in place without a gasket to check the fit, see that the angles line up close, remember no turkey trays untill Thanksgiving pig_flyi !! Check 3 times torque once. good luck you did a lot of work today

[dgie]

floored I am having trouble finding someone with a straight edge, but will keep looking. Also I may have to go to an upgraded mech fuel pump to keep the pressure where I want it. The cam looked ok, from what I could see. I am contemplating putting the old cam back in it. I am wondering if this cam is too big for the stock motor. It has a lift of .518 and the engine is relatively stock bored .030 with a holley 750 and Basset OT headers. The old one that was in there had a lift around .300 (not sure on the exact figures) I will know when I degree it. Do you think the cam could also be part of the problem?

[Floored]

.518 isn't too big almost what I have. I use the chrome Holley pump with no regulator, works great, never leans out even going through 3 inline filters and a water seperator filter. .300 lift x 1.6 is still .480 lift. I am currently running a 750 VS carb myself. do you run a press regulator from WJ pump to engine or a gate valve like I go. I cut back flow to get 150-180 deg at idle then it drops about 10 deg while running. Look carefully for any cracks in the heads or block surface. if its apart already take the time to stare at everything so you don't have this again. txboatnut said check the timing cover, waterpump gasket, that could get you also. :rolleyes:

[Moneypitt]

Djie, you can't play musical lifters!!! What lifters did you use with the new cam?? Once a cam and lifters has been run together you MUST keep the lifters in order as to their place on the cam. Old lifters on a new cam will lead to cam failure very quickly, as will new lifters on an old cam. These components are married for life. As for your water in the oil problem, I Always use a small bead of silicone (1/8th) around the water passages from the block to the heads, and from the heads to the intake, above and below the gaskets, don't over do it... As far as restricting/gating/valving the jet output to the engine, it shouldn't be necessary, BUT, be sure there isn't to much restriction as the water LEAVES the engine. This is what will build excessive water pressure inside the engine....And don't think you are the first one to have this type problem...We've all, (well, most) have been there at least once!!!!! AND you didn't hurt anything.... This lifter stuff has me worried, you can't switch them around!!...Moneypitt
[ August 25, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Moneypitt ]

[cyclone]

DGIE- i've built my share of 455 engines and 9 times out of 10 the intake manifold leaks. Be sure you DONT use the steel "turkey tray" intake manifold gasket. This is the worst gasket ever and is almost guaranteed to leak on you. Your local autoparts store will have a quality fel pro gasket that will work much better. Also make sure the surface of the heads and intake are straight or no matter what you do, you'll get a leak. my 2 pennies in the bucket.

[dgie]

Moneypitt it is my understanding that you can use NEW lifters on an old cam, well the one I just rescently put in it, still fairly new. I have to change the lifters out though because some are pitted on the sides. I do not know why. I do know that you can NOT use old lifters on a new cam though. I do not use the Turkey tray. I have a Mondello tray that fits right over the cam and I use the Felpro intake gaskets.

[H2OT PURSUIT]

Floored, you asked if he could see the restrictors when he pulled the lifters, unless I misunderstood. Where in the lifter bore would you see oil restrictors. I was under the impression that they go in the oil passage under the main bearings. Are there more than one kind?

[dgie]

H20 they are under the main bearing, but I think there is another type of restrictor that goes in the lifter bores. I do not have them.

[Moneypitt]

Djie, when you changed the cam, what lifters did you use? Ones that came with the cam? The lifters that are now pitted, were they fresh? I'm confused as to what the lifter shuffle is about.. There is no way the lifters, if fresh, (new) would be pitted already....and if you used the old lifters........well.....5 minutes MAY flatten the new cam........as far as new lifters on an old cam...Nope, won't work. 99% of the time the lobe is rounded off a little and the new lifter(square bottom) will only touch the very highest point of the lobe..once again failure is on the way. Keep the cam and lifters, in order of position, together, if you EVER plan on using them again.. Mix up the lifters, throw it ALL away. No Ifs ands or buts, unless you like replacing cams......Moneypitt

[dgie]

Moneypitt I do not know why they are pitted, but they are. I used all new lifters and new cam. I also know that I am tired of dumping money in the motor. I descided to put a cap on it. I already have the lifters. If it is going to require anything more then new gaskets , new lifters , and fresh oil. I am going to scrap the motor. Push the boat to the back take a long break and start searching for a Chevy motor for it. It is not only frustartion, but it is also a serious loss of money. Like they say you can only polish a teard so much.
[ August 26, 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: dgie ]

[Floored]

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302PHR_Fortified/ in this article they show alot of olds stuff and where the restrictors are found, good basic stuff. if the lifters are pitted on the sides thats ok. on the bottom of the lifter is not ok. Did you find anything that looked like it was leaking yet?

[Back Forty]

I think the problem is the owner of this boat and not the engine. :confused:
How is it that a bone stock 455 with all of the berkley cooling and exhaust, iron intake, factory cam, no mondello goodies, a Quadrajet carb and HEI ignition in an old clapped out glastron with front mounted tank, a massive amount of ply wood upolstered interior blah blah blah can bump along at near 60mph all day and your "POS 455" is crap? What did you say your boat will do? 40 something?
You said it a long time ago and now it's "I hate this Olds" all of the time... :rolleyes:
My stocker (BONE STOCK!!!) ran 57mph by gps at just a hair under 4400 rpms last night all evening long with two of us, the tools and most of a full tank of gas. No cam, No stupid Holley carb, and firstly no shitty work...
sbc..? HA HA HA..! sleeping
Dgie, I don't mean to start shit but your talking it for sure. argue

[FastRat1]

AMEN.....needs to get a manual and read!!...there are alot of people in these forums that run a 455 (stock, mild & wild) and ur the only one thats haveing alot of trouble...seems to me...u need to go bk to school and learn how to put a motor together...i'm not trying to rag on u...but...if they will run 100k+ in a car...they gotta run more than 1 season + in a boat!
btw...nice bike BackForty

[dgie]

sorry dude, I never said that I know everything about these motors. I am learning I admit it, It seems to me everyone was at this point, unless they poped out of the womb with a wrench in their hand.

[victorfb]

hey dgie, please take the critisism with a grain of salt. there are alot more people with the same and even worse problems with thier motors. they are just not on here telling thier stories. i think its great that you are trying and unfortunaly learning the hard way. we have all been there. it IS possible that somewere down the line that you made a mystake, but we are not perfect. if you were trying to make it a living, id say yes, school, books, alot of research and hands on would be the way to go. but this is your (and many of ours) hobbie. it can be frustrating, but just think when you do finally get it right and everything is perfect how excited your going to be. not everyone will have that experience in thier lifetime.

[Floored]

At least when you finally get it ironed out and set-up you can say that you did it :D and you will have learned from it and be able to pass it on to someone else having trouble or even help someone who may be having trouble out on a lake. Sure beats saying,Gee I bought it this way. there are a lot of people on lots of boards asking for and recieving help, some good and some bad. Boats are for fun and I don't mind working on mine, it beats TV.I just colorsanded and buffed and rewired the rear of my boat this week, why?, I felt like it. Relax, have a Root Beer and go 1 part at a time. The only time to hurry is if the boat dies and you see a sign saying NIAGRA FALLS 1/4 MILE! eek!

[victorfb]

oh cmon. you got 1/4 mile... no need to hurry, sit back and enjoy the float for a bit. besides, how bad could it really be? its just water. :D

[dgie]

No that’s cool I am not pissed at them. They are bashing me because I am bashing 455's its understandable. I am sorry I am airing my dirty laundry on the board I will try not to do it in the future, frustration gets the better of me sometimes. I did say Try right? :D Yes it does keep me busy and that’s a good thing, my sister likes it because she sees me more (boats at her place) Kind of making up for the long time I was away in the military. I wish I could get my hands on a T58-ge-16 hell at least that’s something I went to school to learn about. Of course it was one of my jobs the 12 years I was in the Marine Corps. It would really move that boat, I figure I could break my all time record of 49 mph with that motor.

[Back Forty]

dgie, I mean to be constructive about my critisisim. You have made it sound as though tossing achevy in will fix your ill. I think on more than one occasion you have made it sound as though your pump is loose as hell. 49 MPH at 4300rpms in a very light boat. Why are you grumbling about it? How is a chevy supposed to do any better when the foundation of your boat isn't even up to snuff? Stop where your at, do a proper rebuild of the pump and engine. You'll be over this and out enjoying your boat instead of experiencing dumb problems all of the time. Sounds like the turd is your whole driveline. It also sounds as though you know all of this already and are doing the drunk denial about it. And yes It was the Olds thing although I love the chevy's too. Just something like logic was kicking me about the situation.
:)

[Taylorman]

Floored:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302PHR_Fortified/ in this article they show alot of olds stuff and where the restrictors are found, good basic stuff. if the lifters are pitted on the sides thats ok. on the bottom of the lifter is not ok. Did you find anything that looked like it was leaking yet? Hey Floored, the author of that article is Mike Finnegan. Did you realize that is Cyclone?

[dgie]

fastrat1 thanks for the pm, no problem. In response to some of these posts. There are no real manuals for a 455, just a couple general ones such as Hanes etc. I also have the Mondello one that is even more useless. I went to the dealer to see if they could get their hands on a service manual for the motor. No go too old,Whenever I buy a a new car I buy the authentic service manual from the dealer for the perticular car that I own. In these manuals the car that I own is the only car that is in the manual. If it existed for a 455 I would have no questions for the board. When dealing with the motor I generally go the the ROP board and hit up people with questions there. Not to say they can not be answered here. I am just learning and have not given up on the boat. I am going to get it running and enjoy it a little more. The motor will be changed though, and not to a small block, I will go Big Block (thanks for the pm Frosty Pop) I already have someone hunting one down as we speak. I feel parts will be easier to find then olds stuff, and not to mention cheaper.

[Floored]

No I didn't know it was cyclone. I just saw that it was an informative article for someone wanting a reliable motor. Good article Mike! I don't think Dgie is going to give up, I got a hunch he's going to find it and get some summer cruisin in yet. If my olds dies I cant say I won't switch to a different brand, it all depends on the mood that I would be in. :p I went through this learning curve in late 60's and early 70's and had friends there to help me, so now I try to help back a little.

[red rocker fan]

I have an olds also an lost a rod bearing. found out my basset t was full of shit. Also you want to make sure that the time cover is sealed real good. Dont use that copper gasket shit, use the black rvt gasket maker an let it set up for 24 hrs.Also the intake gasket, use the black rvt on both sides of the gaskets. you dont need a alot.an if your still getting water in your oil flush it with karasen an cheak your compression an if your week on one cylender you might have a valve sticking. but cheak yor basset T first. you shouldent be able to blow thew it with your mouth. it should hold 9 PSI befor opening. good luck . 455 olds are good motors if their assembled right.

[HotDogz]

Fought water in my oil last year and chnged the intake gaskets 3 times before I had the intake looked at. Was warped on both sides nearest the exhaust crossover even tho they were blocked. Once I changed the intake, no more water. Just somewhere else to look. Good luck.

[Wally_Gator]

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302PHR_Fortified/ in this article they show alot of olds stuff and where the restrictors are found, good basic stuff. if the lifters are pitted on the sides thats ok. on the bottom of the lifter is not ok. Did you find anything that looked like it was leaking yet?
Floored,
The restrictors in the lifter bores for this project were put there for a solid lifter cam. If you were to put them in on a hydraulic lifter cam the lifters may never pump up enough to take out the excessive lash.
Those running Hydraulic lifters should use the restricted pushrods if they need to limit the oiling to the top of the engine.

[OLDMANSOLDSBOAT]

Check or change the power valve in your holley. From what I understand if it back fires out the carb the can blow real easy. That could have been makin it run like crap. As for the motor don't give up I went through hell and high water to get the 455 back in buisness. I mean all the bolt on crap wasn't bolt on we had to modify and adapt them just to get them to work. But that has more to do with crappy enginieering in the aftermarket. :idea:

[GlastronGuy]

...I also have the Mondello one that is even more useless...
That's just silly.
Our motor was built according to Joe's advise (Tech Ref. Man.) It has held up for 5 seasons so far and is run hard.
61.7 GPS at 4200 RPM with a Q-Jet, Pack A Jet logs in a deep V Glastron/Carlson.

[dgie]

One note on this thread is this problem was solved several months ago, actually I forgot about this thread. The problem with the water in my oil turned out to be a shitty rebuild by the rebuilder I used originally for this motor. It turned out they tried to fix a cracked head, without fully knowing how to do it. I sent the motor to another rebuilder and he went thru it. He found that the head was cracked and showed me where they tried to fix it. I gave him a spare set of heads and he rebuilt them for me and the problem was solved, no more water in the oil.....so onto the fuel pressure problem :D
That was then this is now. I love having a 455 in my boat, see what a difference almost a year makes :D but if it blows I may be calling it a POS again :burningm:

[malcolm]

Yeah, Hotdogz why are we going back through a year old thread? :)

[v-drive]

I rebuilt my olds on a whim. I found an old v-drive and had an old jet boat and the only thing good about the boat was that olds engine. My father in law found Dave Smith and he helped us alot. we followed an article by
Joe Mondello and modeled the engine after his build up. We had it out 2 weeks ago and it was awsome, it is a torque monster and really lives up to its reputation as one. I love it. I know this is the jet forum, I just couldn't resist. We used restricters everywhere except the lifters but we did use restrictive pushrods . :rollside: v-drive