ford 460 aluminum head question

[1fastlx]

I need a bit of help from you guys, I am looking to buy a set of Blue Thunder 64cc heads with chevy style exhaust ports. does anyone know if the valve placement is the same as my D3s or will some "custom" pistons be in order. I ask this because I am building a new engine for my 21' barge and was thinking about a ~520in engine. I guess what I was really looking for is will the "out of the box" pistons work or will some fly cutting be in order. advertized lift will be under .600. thanks for any help or suggestions:confused:

[Sleeper CP]

520" Ford? Bore x sroke? Do you have an out of the box piston that will work?
How much compression with the 64cc heads? There will be a couple of Ford builders that can answer your question, I'm not one of them.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[1fastlx]

no I have not bought pistons yet, Just doing some research to save from getting the wrong ones. My local speed shop has not done any work with the BT heads in the configuration I am wanting. 4.30 stroke and the bore will depend on the condition of my block I will assume 4.440 should yield 521"

[atxwrangler]

i have those heads on my blown 460,one thing you want to keep in mind is you will need toorder custom headers . you can use standard chebby headers,but,to change plugs,you will have to remove the headers,as you will only be able to remove number 1 and 8 with the headers installed.i was told rewarder can make a chebby header with a ford bolt pattern, i haven't confirmed this,as i am running the chebby headers still.

[RiverRacer]

I need a bit of help from you guys, I am looking to buy a set of Blue Thunder 64cc heads with chevy style exhaust ports. does anyone know if the valve placement is the same as my D3s or will some "custom" pistons be in order. I ask this because I am building a new engine for my 21' barge and was,about a ~520in engine. I guess what I was really looking for is will the "out of the box" pistons work or will some fly cutting be in order. advertized lift will be under .600. thanks for any help or suggestions:confused:
Depending on whether you get your castings from the new batch, or the old batch, you have 2 choices. New batch @ 78cc's and old batch @ 75 cc's. NEITHER will safely go to 64cc's(68cc's is safe).
Valve placement is basically the same as a D3, but remeber the Valves are larger, so cut your reliefs accordingly. Anybody's shelf stock Piston should be good at that lift.
As far as Headers go, by a set of BBC Bassett's and simply cut and notch the flanges ie: make each tube seperate. You'll be able to change plugs like anyone else(I do). Hope that helps. Questions?? Call the number off the website below. RR

[LakesOnly]

I am looking to buy a set of Blue Thunder 64cc heads with chevy style exhaust ports. Does anyone know if the valve placement is the same as my D3s or will some "custom" pistons be in order. I ask this because I am building a new engine for my 21' barge and was thinking about a ~520in engine. I guess what I was really looking for is will the "out of the box" pistons work or will some fly cutting be in order. advertized lift will be under .600. thanks for any help or suggestions:confused: The heads that you are considering for your build use a chebby exhaust flange, they do not incorporate a chebby exhaust port.
Last I heard, the 385 Series 429/460 Ford applicable Blue Thunder (BT) heads were available in 74cc, 80cc, and 100cc combustion chamber volume as delivered from BT. I assume your inquiry is for 74 cc heads and that "64cc" is a typo.
Although the BT heads in question use the standard 429/460 valve layout, BT spaces the intake/exhaust valves apart from each other by an additional .040" each (a total of .080" spread) over the stock Ford cylinder heads. Therefore, the pistons that you buy for your stroker engine (oem 460 pistons won't work in the stroker) would be pistons that are made for the standard Ford valve layout, but typically cut with valve reliefs that accomodate the SCJ valve sizes.
You are building a customized engine, so you had better bet that plenty of customizing will be in order and that this may or may not include pistons modification.
Whether or not the pistons need to be fly cut will be determined during the mockup stage(s) of your build.
The fact that you are considering a camshaft of less than .600 lift for 521 cubes of engine gives me pause and causes me to question whether you are selecting the correct heads for this build and/or if you are selecting the correct camshaft for your needs.
Please be more spcific about what you want for an engine (such as hosepower-wise) and how you intend to use this build in your typical boating activities, etc.
LO

[1fastlx]

thanks for the replies, I am looking for a good strong engine for a daycruiser, the exhaust that I have are SMI jacketed headers for BBC I was going to make an adapter to put them on my ford but BT took care of that problem for me. My engine has not been apart in since i have had the boat so I figured new pistons with the rebuild. The stroker kits have become very reasonably priced and should give me more power at less Rs. As far as cam selection goes I am completely open to suggestions as I am not sure if Comp knows what the boats like. I have an AB aggressor in the pump now and would like to turn it to 5500 at wot and still cruise at 43-4500. My current engine turns 4K with good air. I mostly cruise around and pull tubes but am tired of getting cut off by PWCs and them leaving me like I am sitting still:mad: I am not looking for the fastest boat on the water but I would like to see 65 or so. thanks

[LakesOnly]

thanks for the replies, I am looking for a good strong engine for a daycruiser, the exhaust that I have are SMI jacketed headers for BBC I was going to make an adapter to put them on my ford but BT took care of that problem for me. My engine has not been apart in since i have had the boat so I figured new pistons with the rebuild. The stroker kits have become very reasonably priced and should give me more power at less Rs. As far as cam selection goes I am completely open to suggestions as I am not sure if Comp knows what the boats like. I have an AB aggressor in the pump now and would like to turn it to 5500 at wot and still cruise at 43-4500. My current engine turns 4K with good air. I mostly cruise around and pull tubes but am tired of getting cut off by PWCs and them leaving me like I am sitting still:mad: I am not looking for the fastest boat on the water but I would like to see 65 or so. thanksFastlx,
RiverRacer sells BT heads, so he would have the latest scoop on the available combustion chamber sizes.
Even though stroker kits are reasonably priced, this does not mean that a stroker engine is a budget motor. A 521/533 with BT heads can easily put you into the 5 figures by the time the engine is completed.
How much horsepower are you hoping for? Must this engine run on pump gas, and if so is a 91 octane requirement okay? Also, there are adaptors available that enable you to mate a chebby header flange to a Ford exaust port, should you be building a budget minded motor.
LO

[LakesOnly]

My local speed shop has not done any work with the BT heads in the configuration I am wanting.Uh oh....heeeeere we go....
4.30 stroke and the bore will depend on the condition of my block I will assume 4.440 should yield 521".030+ makes a 521; .080" makes a 533, 4.3 stroke assumed in both cases.
LO

[ck7684]

Curious...what's the purpose of having chevy flanges on these heads?

[dmontzsta]

Curious...what's the purpose of having chevy flanges on these heads?
Cause chevy exhaust is everywhere. Ever try to find some V-Drive Ford headers? :)

[ck7684]

Wouldnt it be cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint to build headers rather than special cylinder heads?? :idea:

[058]

Curious...what's the purpose of having chevy flanges on these heads?To save the buyer the expense of buying new exhaust when they switch from a Chevy to a Ford.

[cstraub]

Wouldnt it be cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint to build headers rather than special cylinder heads?? :idea:
No. Since the GM platform is used more the marine industry you have several aftermarket companies making headers and the competition makes it more cost effective for the consumer. Also the cost difference between the Ford flange or the Chevy Flange on the Blue Thunders is minimum.
I'll add this since about the Blue Thunders. Undoubtly the finest cast, machined, thought out head there is. For a company to step up and put the steel headbolt washers already in the head and use timeserts instead of heli coils makes the head a superior peace.

[1968Droptop]

I'll add this since about the Blue Thunders. Undoubtly the finest cast, machined, thought out head there is. For a company to step up and put the steel headbolt washers already in the head and use timeserts instead of heli coils makes the head a superior peace.
DITTO, real nice pieces for sure !!!

[dmontzsta]

To save the buyer the expense of buying new exhaust when they switch from a Chevy to a Ford.
That is the winner there! :D

[1fastlx]

Lakesonly, I was looking for somewhere in the 500-550hp range on pump gas 91 octane would be great I usually run 93. As far as the headers go I am running a closed engine and must have jacketed headers, I allready have them. I dont mean to say that a stroker is a buget mill I have a 418" small block ford in a "street car" I know what a money pit they can be. I dont mind spending the cash just dont want to toss it at a bad combo. I really dont need to go with a stroker for what I am going to do just thought It would be cool to have I guess. Do you think the heads are too much for a 460" engine in my rpm range?

[LakesOnly]

Lakesonly, I was looking for somewhere in the 500-550hp range on pump gas 91 octane would be great I usually run 93. As far as the headers go I am running a closed engine and must have jacketed headers, I already have them. I dont mean to say that a stroker is a budget mill I have a 418" small block ford in a "street car" I know what a money pit they can be. I dont mind spending the cash just dont want to toss it at a bad combo. I really dont need to go with a stroker for what I am going to do just thought It would be cool to have I guess. Do you think the heads are too much for a 460" engine in my rpm range?500-550 hp is pretty easy with a .030 overbore 460 with factory iron heads.
I might get slapped for this, but in regards to aluminum heads on just 460 cubes as you're describing, the BT's wouldn't be my very first choice in such the application/power requirements that you need. On the other hand, if you insist on the chebby flange, then most certainly I'd be considering them although the flange requirement would be the deciding factor here and not broad measure for the best overall applicable head for power to 5500 rpm with a 460 on pump gas. So if you must have the big heads, yes, they will work but going stroker will allow those heads to really shine.
We've received and rebuilt a good amount of CJ portsize headed 460s for jet boats and in the process of the rebuild we swapped their bigger heads out for passenger car size ported heads in their place, and everytime the customers have been amazed the superior overall power and improved throttle response on their 460s. Bigger is not always better when it comes to cylinder heads; having the appropriate features for the engine combinaton is what matters the most..
500-550 hp on pump gas is easy; building a 521 BT headed stroker for a measely 500+ hp will be an expensive way to get it (dollars per hp ratio), but it can be done and be very reliable. If you want a less expensive way to get there and/or would consider the flange adaptors then your options are suddenly wide open.
LO

[dmontzsta]

I agree with Paul. 550hp is pretty easy, I would get some ported DOVE heads and Ford to chevy flange to run chevy exhaust, much cheaper than BTs, which are overkill for this type of power.

[1fastlx]

thanks for putting me on the right road, you guys may have saved me quite a bit of cash (my wife thanks you) I may stay with the BTs and build my stroker next season. I am still restoring my boat and can use the money elsewhere. NEVER EVER sell a "good" boat to buy an old fixer no matter how good an idea it seems. Now that the floor, carpet and seats are finished and the paint is about to fly I might as well freshen the engine. Thanks for all the info there is a good wealth of jet knowledge here on this board and basically no one in Tennessee that knows what I am talking about!

[cstraub]

thanks for putting me on the right road, you guys may have saved me quite a bit of cash (my wife thanks you) I may stay with the BTs and build my stroker next season. I am still restoring my boat and can use the money elsewhere. NEVER EVER sell a "good" boat to buy an old fixer no matter how good an idea it seems. Now that the floor, carpet and seats are finished and the paint is about to fly I might as well freshen the engine. Thanks for all the info there is a good wealth of jet knowledge here on this board and basically no one in Tennessee that knows what I am talking about!
NE TN (Johnson City/Bristol/Kingsport) must not be considered knowledgeable TN people. . . .:D Of course I am 6 miles from VA and 20 miles from NC, those might be the problem

[hack job]

my guess is that you have never seen the flang adpters if your recommening them cause that are the biggest flow cutters out there. i had a set on my old motor and they were junk i admit you can clean them up pretty good but not to flow like stock heads . littlery they block a good third of the exhast tube and good luck getting your plugs out.:rolleyes:

[LakesOnly]

my guess is that you have never seen the flang adpters if your recommening them cause that are the biggest flow cutters out there. i had a set on my old motor and they were junk i admit you can clean them up pretty good but not to flow like stock heads . littlery they block a good third of the exhast tube and good luck getting your plugs out.:rolleyes:
Hackjob,
What brand flange adaptors are you talking about, and how much are they?
Paul

[hack job]

Hackjob,
What brand flange adaptors are you talking about, and how much are they?
Paul
they were the eddie marine ones and they were 200. I dont have them any more.

[LakesOnly]

they were the eddie marine ones and they were 200. I dont have them any more.I'm not familiar with those adaptors. I wanted to be able to compare them with the adaptors that I know about, so I went to the Eddie Marine website but didn't see them. I telephoned and spoke with a salesman who said that they haven't made them for some time nor do they offer them anymore. Oh well.
The flange adaptors that I am talking about are Evans Racing Flange Adaptors. They work well and provide a valid option for those that have BBC flanged headers and would like to bolt those headers onto BBF cylinder heads. Indeed, the flange adaptor is by no means a port "improver," but these adaptors have been dyno proven to add hp over a non-adapted Ford head (with BBF headers) because the BBC headers are not pinched narrow at the flange like most BBF headers are. Here's a picture ofthem:
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657FlangeAdaptors_01.jpg
They have actually been revised since I took that picture, and now have added an undercut to facilitate spark plug access in the iron heads (the iron heads have the plugs lower in the combustion chamber than today's aluminum offerings; spark plug access no prob with SCJ, BT, TFS heads). Also something cool about these adaptors: the port-side of the flange and the header-side of the flange are not parallel to each other but are actually angled the same amount as the offset between Ford and BBC headers. :idea: Also, plenty of material to allow the builder to blend the port opening to the shape of the port in the head being used.
No, they don't stand up to a BT head (of course not), but for 550 hp they certainly give us options.
How do these look compared to the Eddie Marine adaptors?
LO

[sleekcrafter]

Charlie Evan's make a nice piece for a tad under $200 It was rumored that a head MFR was going to buy his adapters, a while back. They only needed a very minimal clearancing on the spark plugs, which he leaves for the end user to remove as needed, but clearly marked where trimming may be needed. To gasket match them is a bit involved, but nothing a few hours won't fix. each head and header flange vary, and the material removed, for the port, can get close to bolt holes, so take your time to map it out.

[1fastlx]

can someone post a link to evens or a phone number, The flanges I gave seen were really bad pieces and they leaked like crazy because of the port mismatch I guess. The ones lakes posted looked a lot better! those are an option. I have a set of logs on her now and even after a few hours of grinding they still have a VERY poor port match so I bought a set of CMI jacketed headers with the intentions of running the adapters and after talking to a couple of people who had run them in the past I decided not to use them. A couple of questions I had; are the treads heil-coiled in them and how will they hold up with my heavy headers pointing upward?

[Sleeper CP]

.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5657FlangeAdaptors_01.jpg
No, they don't stand up to a BT head (of course not), but for 550 hp they certainly give us options.
LO
Lakes,
Those are nice. It might be to expensive, but does some one make an ex. port plate that does the same thing along with raising the exhaust. I guess by then you might as well buy a new set of heads?
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[sleekcrafter]

can someone post a link to evens or a phone number, The flanges I gave seen were really bad pieces and they leaked like crazy because of the port mismatch I guess. The ones lakes posted looked a lot better! those are an option. I have a set of logs on her now and even after a few hours of grinding they still have a VERY poor port match so I bought a set of CMI jacketed headers with the intentions of running the adapters and after talking to a couple of people who had run them in the past I decided not to use them. A couple of questions I had; are the treads heil-coiled in them and how will they hold up with my heavy headers pointing upward?
Try this charlesdevans@aol.com

[LakesOnly]

Sleekcrafter, last time I checked, these adaptors were retailing for over $200, around $225. The machine work is world class.
Sleeper, the exhaust port plates that I know of, such as those from Price Motorsports, are not a bolt on deal but actually require machining right into the head and water jacket. They are a big expensive mod, and no, I don't belive they accomodate the BBC flange.
1fastlx, the threads are not helicoiled on these flanges, nor do they need to be. Installed correctly and with care, they work great on boat headers (which is the first place I saw them used). My opinion is that you MUST understand proper grinding in order to get xlnt results, understand how the porting of the selected cyliner head must work in conjunction with the adaptors. I might be able to help you with this; check your PM's.
LO

[hack job]

the more i thought about it I took my eddie marine ones back and bought some from lighting headers. they were nicer but still very very restrictive.. they looked simular to the ones lakes has. iam not knocking them iam just giving my.02:idea:

[hack job]

lakes i think he has a manifold which might weight a bit more than a ot header. i know my lightings weight a decent amount.

[nelsonf]

I Bought Hacks and he is correct when he says blocked 1/3 of the Ports i had DOVE-C Ported and those plates were pretty bad and plugs were a pain

[Danhercules]

Paul has built two motors for me.
Well, modified one and built one.
First one was a Ford 460. He ported me some heads, pick out a cam. Them motor was about 500 hp. Made my 18' Southwind run good.
Then I stepped up and he built me a 528 Ford with the blue thunder heads with pump gas and got 736 HP very easy. There is more in there if I wanted it.
Paul knows his ford stuff. He can save you money too. Let him port your heads.

[1fastlx]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/4SPRAT/DSCF0203.jpg
I have these exact headers and they are pretty heavy as far as headers go because of the double tube and the water flowing thru them.

[sleekcrafter]

Sleekcrafter, last time I checked, these adaptors were retailing for over $200, around $225. The machine work is world class.
LO
Dang... Lakes, supply and demand got a set from Charlie in the spring $185 plus ship $205 total. Intended use was for Lightning headers, and they work just fine. Head to adapter just use, no gasket just hight temp silicone, use gasket for just the adapter to header.