Martin Mars water bombers stationing at Lake Elsinore

[spectras only]

These bombers should be at Elsinore by now . Airplane buffs take your video cameras to the lake . It's an awesome sight when these guys scooping the water . These planes are from Vancouver Island BC .
http://www.aviationtrivia.homestead.com/Mars.html
http://www.martinmars.com

[dirty old man]

We saw the DC 10 do a few drops of retardant, can't wait to see this baby. We also saw the Canadian super scoopers. Why don't you sell some of them to LA city/county

[spectras only]

[QUOTE=dirty old man; Why don't you sell some of them to LA city/county[/QUOTE]
Because we need them as much as you guys . ;) . We've lost many homes around Kelowna a few years ago too .

[boatsnblondes]

How about one of these????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfCwChAg6lE

[spectras only]

How about one of these????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfCwChAg6lE
Yeah , they should convert the presidential plane while off duty and send it to Cali . The DC-10 is cool too , but you need a plane that can scoop water while flying ;) . Those Mars planes could empty Lake Elsinore in a hurry if needed :idea: :) :D

[JB in so cal]

Yeah , they should convert the presidential plane while off duty and send it to Cali . The DC-10 is cool too , but you need a plane that can scoop water while flying ;) . Those Mars planes could empty Lake Elsinore in a hurry if needed :idea: :) :D
nuh, uhhh. all of the sludge would clog up the intakes:idea:

[Havasu_Dreamin]

We also saw the Canadian super scoopers. Why don't you sell some of them to LA city/county
Becasue the State and County are too damn cheap to buy them. I know for a few years we leased them during fire season and kept them down here.
Interestingly enough, these planes are not a new idea. I took a Forestry class in college back in the early 90's and wrote a report about the use of these planes in Canada and their effectiveness in suppressing wildland fires.

[spectras only]

nuh, uhhh. all of the sludge would clog up the intakes:idea:
I guess you clogged up your seawater pump there before :idea: :) :D

[riverroyal]

at elsinore yet?Interesting location for them to reload

[Miss Perfect]

at elsinore yet?Interesting location for them to reload
There is a very large, bomber style plane flying circles over the Old Town/Pt Loma area. Don't ask me why.... it's VERY odd.

[riverroyal]

There is a very large, bomber style plane flying circles over the Old Town/Pt Loma area. Don't ask me why.... it's VERY odd.
:D

[Miss Perfect]

:D
HAHA! The circles it was doing included the Mission Valley area. Could they have been doing a fly-by over the stadium???

[riverroyal]

or pictues for the government?im sticking with spying

[TOBTEK]

they were saying on the radio this morning that they may have the plane pick up water from the ocean. Maybe from the bay??? id think Smell-some-more is to far away, and the open ocean would be to rough???? BAD Ass plane!

[westair]

Needed them a couple days ago...... why the delay?

[Strippoker]

Small note on the planes. Until 911 there was a bunch of private companies that were set up for fire drops. Then the powers to be got to nervous about this so alot of them got shut down. Infact there is a airstrip about 1 hour from my parents in wyoming that has about 50 planes that can no longer fly do to our country being in fear that Habeeb may take one. Funny how at times we can be our own worst problem.

[burtandnancy2]

Read somewhere, or saw on TV that the DC-10 and the Evergreen 747 were grounded by bureaucratric SNAFU'S. Probably true, but the DC-10 at least is airborn. Where are the military C-130's or 140's that were promised. You'd think a dozen or so fires costing Billions of dollars would justify someone getting off thier ass's and getting them up. Anyone know?

[spectras only]

Needed them a couple days ago...... why the delay?
They probably needed clearence from US homeland security :idea: :rolleyes:

[superdave013]

Those Mars planes could empty Lake Elsinore in a hurry if needed :idea: :) :D
naw, they would hit a sunken moble home or something way before that would happen.

[AzLakeLizard]

Read somewhere, or saw on TV that the DC-10 and the Evergreen 747 were grounded by bureaucratric SNAFU'S. Probably true, but the DC-10 at least is airborn. Where are the military C-130's or 140's that were promised. You'd think a dozen or so fires costing Billions of dollars would justify someone getting off thier ass's and getting them up. Anyone know?
Military choppers ready to go
Posted @ 9:54 AM
Congressman Duncan Hunter said Wednesday morning that 14 military water-dropping helicopters will be ready to fly today to assist in the battle against the county's wildfires.
Cal Fire officials have agreed to let the choppers fly with a lead plane carrying one of Cal Fire's spotters, Hunter said.
Previously, officials would not allow the helicopters to assist unless a Cal Fire official flew in each aircraft, Hunter said.:devil:
The fleet includes six Marine helicopters, six from the National Guard and two from the Navy. They will be staging at North Island Naval Air Station and should be ready to go this afternoon, Hunter said.

[burtandnancy2]

AZ lizzy, thats great, but now CNN just announced that the winds have dropped too much, no breeze, so can't fly due to too much smoke. Mother nature is toying with us. Still want to know about the C-130/140/s tho...

[Strippoker]

AZ lizzy, thats great, but now CNN just announced that the winds have dropped too much, no breeze, so can't fly due to too much smoke. Mother nature is toying with us. Still want to know about the C-130/140/s tho...
same issue as the choppers without spotters they are getting a run around. Lets face it they can drop bombs but hundres of gallons of water well thats a tad more tricky. At least that is what is coming in from CNN

[Sleek-Jet]

Small note on the planes. Until 911 there was a bunch of private companies that were set up for fire drops. Then the powers to be got to nervous about this so alot of them got shut down. Infact there is a airstrip about 1 hour from my parents in wyoming that has about 50 planes that can no longer fly do to our country being in fear that Habeeb may take one. Funny how at times we can be our own worst problem.
Do they live near Greybull, WY???
FWIW... a few C130's that were released for firefighting in the mid 90's turned up doing more illicit duties in Africa and the Middle East. The Gov't asked for all of them back. This happened before 9/11.
Most of the heavy tankers that are grounded now are unairworthy.
The realities of the conditions are that you could drop all the water you want on these fires, nothing but mother nature herself is going to stop them.

[burtandnancy2]

Sleek, of course you're right, mother nature is a bitch, but we could at least give her a good fight. The water dropping planes and helicopters do a great job under certain conditions, the retardant droppers maybe a little less effective. I don't see the problem with getting spotters into those aircraft...

[Sleek-Jet]

Sleek, of course you're right, mother nature is a bitch, but we could at least give her a good fight. The water dropping planes and helicopters do a great job under certain conditions, the retardant droppers maybe a little less effective. I don't see the problem with getting spotters into those aircraft...
Me neither really...
You want to know the real problem?? There is no national wildland fire coordination. Each agency and state gov't has their own hierarchy. It turns into a mess. When I had the "fortune" to deal with this type of situation in Colorado it was very frustrating. The BLM wouldn't talk to the Forest Service wouldn't talk to the BIA wouldn't talk to the Park Service wouldn't talk to the State/County FD's... each is their own little fife-dom.
The system works for smaller fires, but breaks down on these large ones.
The retardent us used to build a fire break and works very well, but it won't supress the flames as well as water. The IC's like the helos because their ferry time from a water source is very quick... usually less than a few minutes.

[Strippoker]

[QUOTE=Sleek-Jet;2857769]Do they live near Greybull, WY???
QUOTE]
Yep my dad is a ear doc out there in Cody and did all the hearing test for the crews and still does all the forest service and BLM crews. We grew up around the bombers and all those fun toys.

[Keith E. Sayre]

If you want good footage of one of those big huge Martin tankers, watch the
first 10 seconds of the movie "Always" where a huge Martin is scooping water
out of a lake and is heading right straight for a couple of old men in a rowboat! Great video and great opening scene.
Those flying tankers are huge.
Keith Sayre
PS: Sure seems like a crying shame to hear about all the hardware available
to help and either slow in getting here or not at all. Why couldn't all of that
hardware been here 3 or 4 days ago?

[Cs19]

The plane arrived in Elsinore this afternoon, they hit a few storms on the way in so it took longer than expected to get here. they are going through customs tonight and will be dropping that foam stuff on the fires tomorrow. They showed the plane landing on elsinore live on tv, pretty cool.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

The Bombardier CL-215 and CL-415 waterbombers, current production.
I am frankly amazed youy folks out west don't have some of them on hand.
They are not nearly as huge as that Mars, but they also "fill-on-the-fly" from any decently smooth water source like lakes and bays.
The Bombardier 415 is the latest in a line of amphibious aircraft which began with the CL-215 in the late 1960s.
The Bombardier 415, also known as the Superscooper aicraft, is a high-wing, all-metal amphibious aircraft designed specifically for aerial firefighting. It features a four-compartment, four-door water tank system that can hold 6137 litres (1621 US gallons) of water/foam mixture and refills its tanks by skimming the surface of any suitable body of water.
$26 Million each.
The Canadian Canadair CL-215 ("Scooper") was the first model in a series of firefighting aircraft built by Canadair and later Bombardier. The CL-215 is a twin-engine, wing-over amphibious aircraft designed with the requirements that it operate well at low speed and in gust-loading circumstances, as are found over forest fires. It is also able to land and take off from short, unpaved airstrips.
The aircraft has a 1,400 US gal (or 12,000 lb.) fluid capacity, and can refill its tank in ten seconds at 75-80 knots. With water sources close to fires, CL-215s have delivered 75-125 loads of water in a single day in support fire fighting efforts.
No longer in production, see the used aircraft market.

[73kona455]

If you want good footage of one of those big huge Martin tankers, watch the
first 10 seconds of the movie "Always" where a huge Martin is scooping water
out of a lake and is heading right straight for a couple of old men in a rowboat! Great video and great opening scene.
Those flying tankers are huge.
Keith Sayre
PS: Sure seems like a crying shame to hear about all the hardware available
to help and either slow in getting here or not at all. Why couldn't all of that
hardware been here 3 or 4 days ago?
Thats actually a Consolidated PBY Catalina that was used in Always...:eek: :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2nSRHbaEH0

[Sleeper CP]

PS: Sure seems like a crying shame to hear about all the hardware available
to help and either slow in getting here or not at all. Why couldn't all of that
hardware been here 3 or 4 days ago?
On Monday the winds were still blowing to hard down here to fly the plane's and yesterday the winds were hit and miss depending on where in the County.
I heard today that there is still an issue with the CDF letting the military chopter pilots fly to do water drops from the buckets of the Helio's. WTF. Yesterday the military guy's were ready to go but the CDF wouldn't clear them to fly without a designated spotter. Since, all the CDF's spotter's were already being used the military Helio's stayed on Camp Pendilton. They fight fires on the base all the time but the ass-wipes from the CDF don't think they are qualified to fight fire's off base.
The CDF would rather protect their "territory" than knock down the fire. It's the same thing they did with the Cider fire four years ago.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[wedge44]

If you want good footage of one of those big huge Martin tankers, watch the
first 10 seconds of the movie "Always" where a huge Martin is scooping water
out of a lake and is heading right straight for a couple of old men in a rowboat! Great video and great opening scene.
Those flying tankers are huge.
Keith Sayre
PS: Sure seems like a crying shame to hear about all the hardware available
to help and either slow in getting here or not at all. Why couldn't all of that
hardware been here 3 or 4 days ago?
I live Santa Clarita....we were mandatory evac monday morning because of the fire....we had super scoopers and skycranes overhead all day....why because LA County pays for them to be on hand...LACFD also owns 8 of their own Hueys and Blackhawks...its all about priorities....San Diego has 2 old Hueys because they don't have any County Fire Dept....Cal Fire is your only resource for protection....Yes we pay higher taxes and it's worth it...AND the OC with all the money they have no air support either...it's a shame people don't demand more from thier local politicians....instead they have assemblymen talking out thier ass*ss on TV about equipmen sitting on the ground ....I'm just venting ...sorry for the rant wedge

[MudPumper]

I live Santa Clarita....we were mandatory evac monday morning because of the fire....we had super scoopers and skycranes overhead all day....why because LA County pays for them to be on hand...LACFD also owns 8 of their own Hueys and Blackhawks...its all about priorities....San Diego has 2 old Hueys because they don't have any County Fire Dept....Cal Fire is your only resource for protection....Yes we pay higher taxes and it's worth it...AND the OC with all the money they have no air support either...it's a shame people don't demand more from thier local politicians....instead they have assemblymen talking out thier ass*ss on TV about equipmen sitting on the ground ....I'm just venting ...sorry for the rant wedge
Exactly....2 Superscoopers, multiple SkyCranes and FireHawks got a handle on the SCV Fires in a relatively short time. A few homes lost but nothing like whats going in in San Diego County.:idea:
A couple years ago when we had the big fires in Stevenson Ranch and Simi Valley, I took the boat up to Castaic and watched the SuperScoopers run their operation for a few hours. Only about 3 boats on the lake. They were filling up within about 100 yards of me floating near the shore. It was incredible.

[spectras only]

Here you can see some pictures of the 2003 fires and info of our planes
copy and paste >
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/feature/fires.htm

[Sleeper CP]

I live Santa Clarita....we were mandatory evac monday morning because of the fire....we had super scoopers and skycranes overhead all day....why because LA County pays for them to be on hand...LACFD also owns 8 of their own Hueys and Blackhawks...its all about priorities....San Diego has 2 old Hueys because they don't have any County Fire Dept....Cal Fire is your only resource for protection....Yes we pay higher taxes and it's worth it...AND the OC with all the money they have no air support either...it's a shame people don't demand more from thier local politicians....instead they have assemblymen talking out thier ass*ss on TV about equipmen sitting on the ground ....I'm just venting ...sorry for the rant wedge
I (we) already paid for the Militaries, why should I have to pay for the Counties too:confused: When there is a big fire the military should be called in to help. The equipment is there and they have qualified pilots, why not use the resoarces that are already there?
It is a phucking shame that houses were burning down today, because some ass-wipe at Cal-Fire decided they didn't want the military to help. Four years ago during the Cider Fire one of the Cal-Fire ass wipes actually said "They don't let us fight their war's, we don't let them fight "our" fire's" That same day as four military pilots were getting qualified at Camp Pendleton( they had been fighting fires on the base for a week) to drop on the Ceder fire a fire fighter from No. Cal was killed in Julian as he and his partner were over run by fire. The air support they needed was being jerked around 40 miles away.:(
:(
Sorry for the rant, but I could give a shit as to "who" is droping water on the fire, just so someone is.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[Phat Matt]

The planes fly out of San Bernardino airport and over my office. Their hasn't been that much activity until today. At about 5:30pm today while I was driving down the 10 I think I counted 7 big planes in the air at the same time. Looks like the forces have arrived. :)

[BajaMike]

Did those planes actually show up at Lake Elsinore?? I haven't seen any pics on local news stations......:idea:

[dirty old man]

Does the Martin pick up water on the run or can it take off from a dead stop? If I remember Elsinore, it could be a little short

[spectras only]

How long is Lake Elsinore ? They can hold 7200 gallons and take off .It would cover 3 acres of fire , but may need a little room on the lake to scoop that much !

[Propster]

The Mars aircraft have been around a while. They have helped fight forest fires in Washington state and have also assisted in fires in Oregon and California to assist in fire suppression. They were in California in 2005 and 2006.
Here are some facts pulled from the Timberwest website.
http://www.timberwest.com/PDF/FTI_Media_Release_11.10.06.pdf
• Two of the aircraft have continued to operate, providing unsurpassed fire-fighting
protection services to British Columbia’s coast and interior and as required to
neighbouring jurisdictions in Alberta, Washington State, Oregon and California.
• The planes are operated by a crew of four, including a captain, first officer and
two flight engineers.
• Each plane can hold over 27,000 litres (7,200 US gallons) of water/foam load,
enough to cover three to four acres in a single drop. The planes have the
capability to use fresh or ocean water.
• It takes the aircraft a skimming distance of about two kilometres to pick up a load
of water. They can operate from a body of water as small as six kilometres
depending on surrounding topography and other approach and departure
requirements.
• Both aircraft have the capability to drop either straight water or water mixed with
foam onto fires. In 2005, one of the aircraft was also fitted with long-term
suppressant.
• Once the planes are airborne, foam concentrate is injected into the water load at
a ratio of 30 U.S. gallons into the 7,200 U.S. gallon water load.
• Once dropped, the tumbling action causes aeration which converts the water
load into a foam load, a process repeated for each drop.
• The planes are housed at Sproat Lake on Vancouver Island, but have the
capability to operate for extended periods away from their base.
They are looking to sell the aircraft. California should buy one.

[Seadog]

I just spent two days in classes on how to manage an incident. For even the smallest disaster, the logistics are overwhelming. People do not realize that you cannot go in and just fight these things, but that you have to have a plan. Additionally, the federal government is not allowed by law, to go in and help out. They have to be requisitioned by the governor. That is a lot of the problem with Katrina, was the governor did not have a clue what she was supposed to do. And when they do go in, they are not going to take things over unless the existing command system requires them to. Again, Katrina was a disaster because the existing command structure did not exist at the state or local area.
SoCal had the needed equipment available since early on, they did not use it for whatever reasons. As for them owning their own aircraft, can you really think that is reasonable? Most governments cannot afford them and if they do buy them, the maintenance budget would be cut every year there was not a major fire. With the number of fires around the world, the best method is to establish contracts with commercial fire fighting operations and make sure they are run properly with frequent inspections from a central agency.

[Wet Dream]

Needed them a couple days ago...... why the delay?
The wind.

[wedge44]

I just spent two days in classes on how to manage an incident. For even the smallest disaster, the logistics are overwhelming. People do not realize that you cannot go in and just fight these things, but that you have to have a plan. Additionally, the federal government is not allowed by law, to go in and help out. They have to be requisitioned by the governor. That is a lot of the problem with Katrina, was the governor did not have a clue what she was supposed to do. And when they do go in, they are not going to take things over unless the existing command system requires them to. Again, Katrina was a disaster because the existing command structure did not exist at the state or local area.
SoCal had the needed equipment available since early on, they did not use it for whatever reasons. As for them owning their own aircraft, can you really think that is reasonable? Most governments cannot afford them and if they do buy them, the maintenance budget would be cut every year there was not a major fire. With the number of fires around the world, the best method is to establish contracts with commercial fire fighting operations and make sure they are run properly with frequent inspections from a central agency.
For most part you are accurate....but between LA County and the City of LA proper...WE OWN 16 aircraft and rent the others....this is a decision based on our past experiences.....we don't depend on others....and we admit when we need assistance and seek it immediately........and you would think others would learn from the past.....and we too pay for the military....and yes ......I speak from my position/involvement in ICS....

[Seadog]

A lot of the problems in any incident are usually due to poorly prepared local operations. If it is reasonable to have the equipment and to maintain it, I agree that it should be done. And most people do not realize that even in a disaster, they have to keep track of expenses.

[spectras only]

. people do not realize that even in a disaster, they have to keep track of expenses.
Just a footnote ; the aviation costs alone were 100 million for our 2003 fires in BC . Wonder how much this California fire will cost when it's over , not counting the loss of property :idea: .

[Hal]

They have been scooping water out of Lake Elsinore all day today after being held on the Lake this morning for immigration to check the pilots out.
Focking dumb ass's. We have millions of wetbacks in this country illegally and we can't check them for a green card yet they hold up these planes for a hour or two after we asked them to fly down and help us.

[spectras only]

They have been scooping water out of Lake Elsinore all day today after being held on the Lake this morning for immigration to check the pilots out.
I guess the dumb asses wanted to check if these pilots were wearing turbans:;) :) :D .

[ColeTR2]

Landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg-Xhs8cocE
test drop You just have to love the sound of those big radial engines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3sw3n-BbE4
look at how small the guys look standing on this plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Y92JOHIAM

[NdaWind]

The plane came in a week ago and has only flown 5 or 6 missions so far that I have seen, been here everyday and it takes off about 200 to 300 feet over my house, hard to miss. They do warm up the engines every morning while cruising the lake. The lake is closed while they are here.

[NdaWind]

They were late in getting here because they had to fly low along the coast due to some storms and hit a flock of ducks. Had to land and take 3 dead ducks out of the rudder. They are using a gel and not water to put out the fires. unlike the DC-10 this plane can swoop right down on the fire and drop
its load.
From my back deck - take off
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x260/Ndawind/rIMG_3039.jpg
from backyard - Landing approach
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x260/Ndawind/rIMG_3020.jpg
Look at the nose - guy is hanging out getting the mooring line
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x260/Ndawind/rIMG_3032.jpg
All moored up and waiting
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x260/Ndawind/rIMG_3036.jpg

[NdaWind]

Take off
http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x260/Ndawind/?action=view&current=MVI_3018.flv