I'm a Hypocrite, Are You?

[burtandnancy2]

I don't believe in amnesty in full or part, as another weak bill went down to defeat today (the Dream Bill). But I do like my fruit and veggies picked here in CA. not imported from China, and I like my hotel room clean and ready at check in time, and I appreciate well prepared food at my favorite restaurant. I like a lot of services provided by ILLEGAL help, so I'm your typical, spoiled hypocrite. I recently hired a contractor to do some work around the house and he sent in people who didn't speak English. Don't have any idea what to do about it, until one of you comes up with a good idea, I'll just have to live with it. Of all the social ills I have, this one bothers me a great deal...

[Jbb]

I don't believe in amnesty in full or part, as another weak bill went down to defeat today (the Dream Bill). But I do like my fruit and veggies picked here in CA. not imported from China, and I like my hotel room clean and ready at check in time, and I appreciate well prepared food at my favorite restaurant. I like a lot of services provided by ILLEGAL help, so I'm your typical, spoiled hypocrite. I recently hired a contractor to do some work around the house and he sent in people who didn't speak English. Don't have any idea what to do about it, until one of you comes up with a good idea, I'll just have to live with it. Of all the social ills I have, this one bothers me a great deal...
:p ..Do you really think a hotel room is ever really...."clean"?.....:jawdrop:

[soupersonic]

:p ..Do you really think a hotel room is ever really...."clean"?.....:jawdrop:
Once :D

[Kilrtoy]

I don't believe in amnesty in full or part, as another weak bill went down to defeat today (the Dream Bill). But I do like my fruit and veggies picked here in CA. not imported from China, and I like my hotel room clean and ready at check in time, and I appreciate well prepared food at my favorite restaurant. I like a lot of services provided by ILLEGAL help, so I'm your typical, spoiled hypocrite. I recently hired a contractor to do some work around the house and he sent in people who didn't speak English. Don't have any idea what to do about it, until one of you comes up with a good idea, I'll just have to live with it. Of all the social ills I have, this one bothers me a great deal...
pay legal workers Problem solved

[spectras only]

But I do like my fruit and veggies picked here in CA.
If you want to eat fruits and veggies you have no choice , unless you're starting to grow your own in your backyard :idea: :)

[Pheelin Phroggy]

while our personal and biz philosophy is simple "if you cant carry a conversation in at least 9th grade english (standard english that is) or can't prove you did not come across the desert at midnight"... you have an absolute zero chance of ever working for our company or my in yard.
as far as all the other crap, I have about zero control over it and will never, ever look under a hotel mattress or bed... to scared of what i will find.
of course for the right discount... I could drop my standards to say... 3rd grade english on my yard

[Troy McClure]

If you want to eat fruits and veggies you have no choice , unless you're starting to grow your own in your backyard :idea: :)
What? BS. Farmers are allowed special Visas for labor. Granted they have problems with them too.
So, farmers go out of business and as you said, you grow your own (many of our parents/grandparents did)
OR, you buy imported fruits and veggies (we are already doing it) There will not be any $10 head of lettuce or even a $4 apple.
The ONLY variable that would promote prices to go all out of shape and cause the market to falter would be GOVERNMENT OR UNION involvement. Eliminate that and the market will adjust. Always has and if allowed, always will.

[thatguy]

Fortunatly, the closest I come to fruit is a banana split. Veggie's? Maybe the tomato on a quarter pounder. :)
Tommy

[Troy McClure]

WHOOPs,
Got a little off track on the OP's question. Am I a Hypocrite by the services, products that I chose to buy.
I would say no. I do not hire illegal labor. I do not intentionally buy products or material that are produce with illegal labor.
HOWEVER, I'm not stupid. I would imagine that I have eaten in more than a few restaurants that employ illegals or have hired a few subcontractors that have done the same. Have I done it intentionally? NO. Have I had a choice? Not really.
Make the playing field level, however, and it would not matter. Prices MAY increase for a while, but they will eventually even out.

[probablecause]

Less than 2% of illegal immigrants are involved in the agriculture industry! I don't feel bad. The new statistics say that the “once believed” 12 million illegals here are more like 30+ million. Wait 10 more years and watch CA declare bankruptcy, then come back and post. The schools and health care system has been decimated by illegal immigration – just to name a few things.

[OverKill]

Unless we Americans don't get off our Fat and Happy Ass we are all going to get pushed back in a corner. We all need to take a look around and take a few steps down and get our hands dirty. We all want the 38' Cat flying accross Havasu with our nose five feet in the air. Sitting behind a desk making $150,000 a year bossing around illegle labor creating a false economy. If we don't get off our ass now and get to work for our Fruits and Vegies. In the long run we are all gonna starve. In reality It will never happen and it is already to late, because we wont listine. Think I'm kidding? Just give it ten years. There is your daily ass whipping. Good luck in life.
OverKill

[burtandnancy2]

probablecause, I really question where you found that 2% number, but regardless, that 2% is probably responsible for 98% of the agricultulral products provided to 300 million of us. Even if picking grapes paid $25.00/hr, we'd still not get the job done. As I drive up and down the state and see the mile after mile of fields I often wonder how it all gets done. The last thing I want is more food, meat or seafood brought here by container ship from communist China...

[OverKill]

probablecause, I really question where you found that 2% number, but regardless, that 2% is probably responsible for 98% of the agricultulral products provided to 300 million of us. Even if picking grapes paid $25.00/hr, we'd still not get the job done. As I drive up and down the state and see the mile after mile of fields I often wonder how it all gets done. The last thing I want is more food, meat or seafood brought here by container ship from communist China...
You have a good point there, the whole China thing doesn't set well with me either. Like I said, we Americans are spoiled rotten and it is going to catch up with us very soon.

[Kilrtoy]

Wait 10 more years and watch CA declare bankruptcy, then come back and post. The schools and health care system has been decimated by illegal immigration – just to name a few things.
The schools and health care system already are crippled and dying a slow bleeding death

[SmokinLowriderSS]

WHOOPs,
Got a little off track on the OP's question. Am I a Hypocrite by the services, products that I chose to buy.
I would say no. I do not hire illegal labor. I do not intentionally buy products or material that are produce with illegal labor.
HOWEVER, I'm not stupid. I would imagine that I have eaten in more than a few restaurants that employ illegals or have hired a few subcontractors that have done the same. Have I done it intentionally? NO. Have I had a choice? Not really.
Make the playing field level, however, and it would not matter. Prices MAY increase for a while, but they will eventually even out.
As Troy said, I am not KNOWINGLY a hypocrite on this issue, but I am smart enough to realize that I have probably crossed this boundary unwittingly almost anywhere, from buying groceries to dining at a resteraunt to walking on the floors at Wal-Mart.

[probablecause]

probablecause, I really question where you found that 2% number, but regardless, that 2% is probably responsible for 98% of the agricultulral products provided to 300 million of us. Even if picking grapes paid $25.00/hr, we'd still not get the job done. As I drive up and down the state and see the mile after mile of fields I often wonder how it all gets done. The last thing I want is more food, meat or seafood brought here by container ship from communist China...
You need to wake up and do some basic math :sqeyes: :sqeyes: :sqeyes: Those statistics are all over the news.
UCLA Medical Center lost 300 million last year due to illegals, the state of California 2 billion.:sqeyes: :sqeyes: Every emergency room in the state, and all the border states, are overwhelmed with illegals. It's estimated that the "field laborers" who work at piece work actually cost us (not the farmer who employs them) around $30.00 per hour because of the services they take advantage of...i.e. emergency rooms, welfare, etc.
Who do you think did it before we had so many illegal aliens? Facts prove that the jobs that hold the most illegal aliens are still 80 percent American. The only difference is that Americans want a decent wage,illegal aliens do not care about how they drag this country down or respect laws. They don't value anything,all they can do is march around talking about how horrible we are to them. Just because you see "them" as you drive throughout California does not mean that it is the reality of the land. 2% is county-wide.
La Voz de Aztlan has produced a video in honor of the millions of babies that have been born as US citizens to Mexican undocumented parents. These babies are destined to transform America. The nativist CNN reporter Lou Dobbs estimates that there are over 200,000 "Anchor Babies" born every year. Whereas George Putnam, a radio reporter, says the figure is closer to 300,000. La Voz de Aztlan believes that the number is approximately 500,000 "Anchor Babies" born every year.
The video below depicts the many faces of the "Anchor Baby Generation". The video includes a fascinating segment showing a group of elementary school children in Santa Ana, California confronting the Minutemen vigilantes. The video ends with a now famous statement by Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez of the University of Texas at Austin.
Anchor Baby Video (http://www.aztlan.net/anchor_baby_power.htm)
The bottom line is that what made this country great - hard work, dedication, etc. is being erroded away. Take your "soft hearted attitude" and blow it out your ass.

[hkunz]

I think we all are hypocrites on this issue. My gardener, who does the heavy, boring, nasty, repetitive stuff I don't want to do, like pick up the yard after my three dogs have thier way, is a citizen, got his papers three years ago. But, when we have big jobs that take a lot of people, I don't check the guys he hires to help us, I'm just glad he gets them so I don't have to hand dig a big hole or reach into spider nests, etc. He gets more than the city pays park attendants, but he also works three jobs - five days as ranch hand, Saturday cleaning house, and Sunday as our gardener. He busts butt for 8 hours straight and asks permission to take a 15 minute lunch break. He can lift more than me and weighs half what I do. If you were to look at him, or talk to him, you'd be certain he was an illegal, but he owns a home with a mortgage and supports his family.
My point? I didn't think to check when we hired him almost ten years ago, because it never crossed my radar. His predecessor was a disabled vet whom I gave preference to for being a DV. That guy mowed my trees, let his dogs attack my tortoises, drank beer on the tractor, and showed up when he wanted, for more pay than our guy now gets. So, I prefer the guy who speaks Spanish and does the job.
I think much of what "we" are scared of on this immigration issue is the fact that we are "monolingual". I try to learn Spanish, but maybe I'm just too old to get beyond directions to the hotel and how to order a beer on vacation. Businesses market to the Latino community, and we are one of those - I had (before the downturn) two offices that worked almost primarily in Spanish. I have Spanish language documents preformatted on my computer so I can print out contracts that I can't read (that's a little scary). Especially after 9-11, every person that I enter into a contract with has to provide valid ID that I check with the ID guide and UV light, so there are only legal immigrants dealing with us, but many require a translator. I used to use their kids, but although I didn't get burned on it, I found it could be a conflict, so started using other agents to translate.
Are those kids I had translate "acnhor babies? Probably, although they were in thier late teens and early twenties, meaning this has been long term issue, not just something that has happened since Rush (or whoever) found out about it.
Short answer, yes, we all are.

[superdave013]

hey hey, I'm doing my part. I just chased a roach coach outta here and have the popo getting the day labors off the property again.
Oh, I also have my lathe and mill cranking out good ol made in USA parts as I type. My figgin hands are killing me from putting hoses together yesterday. I only have 150 more to get done today. I guess I could bring in a bean but I'll just get R done myself.
Hey Burt, how did we get all that work done back in WW2?? I don't think there were illegals were doing it. My motherinlaw ran a drill press back then. Heck, your wife might have also.
Sorry but I think it sucks that Americans are now to lazy to step up and keep our country in check. Maybe some of you guys should try getting your hands dirty sometime. It's not so bad.

[superdave013]

The bottom line is that what made this country great - hard work, dedication, etc. is being erroded away. Take your "soft hearted attitude" and blow it out your ass.
:D :D :D

[MKEELINE]

probablecause, I really question where you found that 2% number, but regardless, that 2% is probably responsible for 98% of the agricultulral products provided to 300 million of us. Even if picking grapes paid $25.00/hr, we'd still not get the job done. As I drive up and down the state and see the mile after mile of fields I often wonder how it all gets done. The last thing I want is more food, meat or seafood brought here by container ship from communist China...
Well, food coming here from other countries is happening whether we like it or not. Next time your in the produce section take a look at some of the items. You'll see alot of items from other countries. This has less to do with illegal labor and ALOT to do with our government making US agriculture a sacrifical lamb. They allow foriegn countries to export their fruits and vegetables here, while our products are not allowed into their countries(atleast not without jumping through hoops with your nipples on fire). These are concessions that are made that allow other US items to be exported.

[probablecause]

I think we all are hypocrites on this issue.
It is not my job to check the legal status of a waiter, bus-boy, gardener, cleaning lady etc., So when I walk into the Luxor in Vegas and see what I think is an illegal alien behind the scenes, I am supposed to walk out?
He busts butt for 8 hours straight and asks permission to take a 15 minute lunch break. He can lift more than me and weighs half what I do. If you were to look at him, or talk to him, you'd be certain he was an illegal, but he owns a home with a mortgage and supports his family.
Nobody is saying that there are not hard working illegals or new citizens in this country.
My point? I didn't think to check when we hired him almost ten years ago, because it never crossed my radar.
Show me the law where it says you as a citizen are supposed to check or have the legal right to ask for a person's citizenship status. Have you watched the news, we as cops are not supposed to be doing that.
His predecessor was a disabled vet whom I gave preference to for being a DV. That guy mowed my trees, let his dogs attack my tortoises, drank beer on the tractor, and showed up when he wanted, for more pay than our guy now gets.
Yet you kept him employed rather than deal with the problems. :idea:
So, I prefer the guy who speaks Spanish and does the job.
I prefer the guy who does the job, period.
I think much of what "we" are scared of on this immigration issue is the fact that we are "monolingual".
Negative. It is the economic burden and the outright arrogance and entitlement mentality that we don't like. Like that bag of shit mexican (sorry, he could have been a U.S. Citizen) in Reno who raised the Mexican flag above his store and the American vet who had the balls to come and cut it down.

[dirty old man]

Some of this is getting off the point of being a hypocrite or not, but all well worth reading. Also, when we see food products from China, we WILL NOT buy it, but thats a whole different story

[Arkansas]

This can only be stopped by the employers. Put a few of them in jail and very quickly you'll see some changes. What happened to the idea of a "workers" visa? They could then have access to medical care given that they would be paying taxes or fees to work here. Free education should be of bounds. Allow immigrants to come here to WORK if they want but not bring their entire families for us to support. We are all a bit prejudiced I believe. If it were Swedish swimsuit models coming here in droves to "work" illegally I don't believe there would be all the fuss.

[Big Warlock]

I don't believe in amnesty in full or part, as another weak bill went down to defeat today (the Dream Bill). But I do like my fruit and veggies picked here in CA. not imported from China, and I like my hotel room clean and ready at check in time, and I appreciate well prepared food at my favorite restaurant. I like a lot of services provided by ILLEGAL help, so I'm your typical, spoiled hypocrite. I recently hired a contractor to do some work around the house and he sent in people who didn't speak English. Don't have any idea what to do about it, until one of you comes up with a good idea, I'll just have to live with it. Of all the social ills I have, this one bothers me a great deal...
After all the lawyers on here are done, there are some basics facts you cannot ignore.
1) There are approximately 12 million illegals on PAYROLLS in America.
2) There are approximately 4 million Americans unemployed.
Do the math!!!! :eek:

[Jordy]

After all the lawyers on here are done, there are some basics facts you cannot ignore.
1) There are approximately 12 million illegals on PAYROLLS in America.
2) There are approximately 4 million Americans unemployed.
Do the math!!!! :eek:
Dammit Rob, here you go with facts again. You know damn well that you can't use facts on here. Don't make me tell you again!!! :mad: :eek: :D :D

[cdog]

The carrying cost's to society far out weight cheap veggies and fruit. The cotton gin was invented in 1793. I'm sure we can mechanize the industries. More than 50% of the baby boomers have 50k or less in savings for retirement. They'll be the one cleaning the hotels.

[SB]

I suppose I'm a little tiny bit of a hypocrite. I want to the build the fence, but I'm well aware that immigrants compete the wage down for unskilled labor, which doesn't directly hurt me with an advanced degree and white collar job.

[superdave013]

More than 50% of the baby boomers have 50k or less in savings for retirement. They'll be the one cleaning the hotels.
true dat! My lovely father-in-law never saved a dime in his life. Now he's 80 years old and works for 8 bucks and hour. He's a super nice guy and a great example. Great example of how NOT to do it.

[Big Warlock]

I suppose I'm a little tiny bit of a hypocrite. I want to the build the fence, but I'm well aware that immigrants compete the wage down for unskilled labor, which doesn't directly hurt me with an advanced degree and white collar job.
Just curious, if you do not hire illegals for unskilled labor, who will you hire? Where is the "line" of Americans ready, able and willing to work unskilled jobs at any price?? :idea:

[HM]

The carrying cost's to society far out weight cheap veggies and fruit. The cotton gin was invented in 1793. I'm sure we can mechanize the industries. More than 50% of the baby boomers have 50k or less in savings for retirement. They'll be the one cleaning the hotels.
There will be a lot of Baby Boomers that will be in the same boat that had defined benefit pensions that got converted to 401K's by the great "Pension Protection Act." Like most government programs...they do the opposite of what they are called. The Pension Protection Act protects the people paying the pension...not the recipients.

[Big Warlock]

There will be a lot of Baby Boomers that will be in the same boat that had defined benefit pensions that got converted to 401K's by the great "Pension Protection Act." Like most government programs...they do the opposite of what they are called. The Pension Protection Act protects the people paying the pension...not the recipients.
But...But....But.......what about social security?????? :eek:

[HM]

But...But....But.......what about social security?????? :eek:
Don't worry about social security...they will be able to band-aid that together for another 50 years or more by funding it with IRA and 401k accounts. The fine print is such a bitch!!!

[probablecause]

Calling an Illegal Alien an "Undocumented Immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "Unlicensed Pharmacist"

[Big Warlock]

Still goes back to the very basic problem, "ILLEGALS", NOT HERE LEGALLY !!!, IMMIGRANT, some one who has come from another country "LEGALLY" !!!!
America has no problem with those "Immigrants" that went thru the sysytem properly, STOP CALLING THE "ILLEGALS" IMMIGRANTS !! THEY ARE NOT !! I challenege anyone to get a news reporter, from any part of the country to call or say the word "Illegal" in front of 'Immigrant", WON'T HAPPEN !!! when speaking of these people.
They have NO RIGHTS,nor should they, they are NOT U.S. Citizens !!! again whats so hard to understand about that, just like if you went to Mexico,China,India, you have no rights in thier country !!!
There is plenty of labor right in our jail cells, get rid of welfare and you'll have plenty more labor !!!!
You want to eat, have a place to live, have a vehicle, get a job !!
Stop sending all our skill/labor jobs (mfg) to all the foreign countries, take a real good look at what we truly mfg in this country, it's squat compared to 50 years ago !!!
America really doesn't need these "illegal" workers, HOWEVER, your local politician does for that almighty vote !!!:mad: :mad:
Some good points. Honestly, good points.
However:
It takes a Mexican over three years to get a visa (potentially, no guarantee) from the American Embassy in Mexico City.
What's wrong with a workers program? At least you know who the majority of them are. Now you don't know anything.
They do have rights, afforded to them by the constituation. The question I believe you are wanting to ask is should they?? Fair question.
You propose to empty the jails to provide labor? New idea, haven't heard that one.
Why do you think that American companies goes out of country to produce and manufactor things? That should explain quite a bit.
Welfare is out of hand. I wish many people would get a job. They just don't want to. And we can force them to work!
Yep, things are bad. The best thing you can do for your kids is get them an education. I see too many people whose kids are spoiled, total losers! With a GED or less, they are looking to be VP of something at your company! LOL And in India, they all go to school and many get through advanced degrees. Why do you think many Doctors, nurses, etc. etc. come from foreign nations? Should we cut those people off as well? Maybe get some more shiat house lawyers and welfare bums to dispense medicine?
And taxes? Do you really understand the tax code? Because if personal taxes was all I had to pay, I would be in heaven!!! And if you are on the payroll with a fake social security number, does that mean you don't pay payroll taxes either??
Think about it a bit, it is happening. The numbers do not lie. The system is broke. But be careful where you throw stones. I think that was the message behind this thread.
Great discussion!!

[OutCole'd]

Guest workers program works for me.
How about some ground rules.
1) No guarantee of a job with health insurance, no Visa.
2) No anchor babies, have it hear, must have insurance to pay for it & take the kid home with you.
3) Pay taxes for the schools you are using.
4) Commit a crime, do the time & get deported. Your family is deported while your doing time.
I'm sure there are more to be added.
Would this be out of line?

[RT21]

After all the lawyers on here are done, there are some basics facts you cannot ignore.
1) There are approximately 12 million illegals on PAYROLLS in America.
2) There are approximately 4 million Americans unemployed.
Do the math!!!! :eek:
Uhm, could you list where you got this stat? Also, define "payroll". I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of illegals are on any "payroll".
Thanks

[Big Warlock]

Uhm, could you list where you got this stat? Also, define "payroll". I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of illegals are on any "payroll".
Thanks
No problem. Unemployment is around 4.5 percent. (Wall Street Journal) Employment payrolls are at a little over 100 million people. (There are approximately 300 million people in America.)
The number of illegal immigrants working in America has been pegged by several sources at 12 million. (I personally think there are more.) This number is obtained by government sources via the payroll information and ss numbers not matching. It does not include "day workers" which is why I say there are more.
Doing a little bit of math, tells one that to remove the 12 million illegals, on payroll would then translate to approximately 8 million person labor deficit.
I honestly want to know where one goes, in Az. or in Cali., to get people?? Where are the lines of people looking for work? All I see is signs of people looking to hire!! Banks, hotels, restaurants, accountants, law firms, engineering firms.....just about everyone I deal with is looking for people. It just seems like everyone is in real estate or mortgage business and are unhappy.

[Big Warlock]

Guest workers program works for me.
How about some ground rules.
1) No guarantee of a job with health insurance, no Visa.
2) No anchor babies, have it hear, must have insurance to pay for it & take the kid home with you.
3) Pay taxes for the schools you are using.
4) Commit a crime, do the time & get deported. Your family is deported while your doing time.
I'm sure there are more to be added.
Would this be out of line?
Not out of line at all. I have two additons for you:
1) Pass English as our national language. All business and official transactions to be done in English!
2) Biuld private jails in Mexico. (Yes, out source!!) You can house foreign prisoners there for 1/2 the cost of jails in the US.

[superdave013]

Not out of line at all. I have two additons for you:
1) Pass English as our national language. All business and official transactions to be done in English!
2) Biuld private jails in Mexico. (Yes, out source!!) You can house foreign prisoners there for 1/2 the cost of jails in the US.
ol #2 just might cut down the crime rate also. Great idea!!