Plane on a Treadmill will be on Mythbusters!

[beaverretriever]

Well, after all debate Mythbusters is going to air an episode some time in Dec.
If you are not familiar with the "Plane on a Treadmill" debate, read this thread.
Should be a good episode and lay this ridiculous debate to rest... and as I already know, the plane will take off :D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131882&highlight=plane+treadmill

[AZJD]

Well, after all debate Mythbusters is going to air an episode some time in Dec.
If you are not familiar with the "Plane on a Treadmill" debate, read this thread.
Should be a good episode and lay this ridiculous debate to rest... and as I already know, the plane will take off :D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131882&highlight=plane+treadmill
Woe, never heard anything about this!:D :D :D
It will take off. That is my final pick. I flip flopped on that one.

[Tom Brown]

If the plane isn't moving, how can it possibly take off?
Come on, guys. Use your heads.

[squirt'nmyload]

If the plane isn't moving, how can it possibly take off?
Come on, guys. Use your heads.
it will move when it throttles up :D

[maxwedge]

Hell yeah it'll fly.

[Rexone]

If the plane isn't moving, how can it possibly take off?
Come on, guys. Use your heads.
Tom You're an idiot.
The plate certainly will take off. The fact the conveyor moves the opposite direction under the wheels has no effect on airspeed of the plane. You might lose a wheel bearing or tire from overspin, but that would be about it.

[RiverOtter]

Well, after all debate Mythbusters is going to air an episode some time in Dec.
If you are not familiar with the "Plane on a Treadmill" debate, read this thread.
Should be a good episode and lay this ridiculous debate to rest... and as I already know, the plane will take off :D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131882&highlight=plane+treadmill
I love that show :)

[AZJD]

:D If the plane isn't moving, how can it possibly take off?
Come on, guys. Use your heads.
The forward momentum is generated at the prop, not on the gound.........
That's it! I am not getting sucked back into this......
:D

[Tom Brown]

I have a newsflash for you people. A plane with zero airspeed cannot fly. Period.

[riverbound]

OK...which hot boater decided to send this in to Mytbusters to settle the debate!!
:D

[Jbb]

lmao..........lemmings......all of you.....:D :D

[Keith E. Sayre]

How's it going to fly if the plane is NOT moving?

[Rexone]

I have a newsflash for you people. A plane with zero airspeed cannot fly. Period.
I'm going to change your name to The Canadian Bilge Idiot.
The plane will have airspeed. The conveyor will have ground speed. They are not related.

[Boozer]

Mythbusters will hopefully reveal the truth. No forward motion, no airspeed, no lift.

[Tom Brown]

How's it going to fly if the plane is NOT moving?
This is what I'm saying. A plane without airspeed will fall out of the sky so how can it possibly get off the ground?

[HalletDave]

I have a newsflash for you people. A plane with zero airspeed cannot fly. Period.
NOT TRUE;) A plane can be airborn and flying into wind that is greater than the airspeed thus the groundspeed is less than the airspeed. The air moving over the upper surface of the wing is still providing lift.:idea:

[Rexone]

This is what I'm saying. A plane without airspeed will fall out of the sky so how can it possibly get off the ground?
Tom please don't make me go all Beaverretriever on you. :mad:

[AZJD]

This is what I'm saying. A plane without airspeed will fall out of the sky so how can it possibly get off the ground?
Haha, now your just stirring the pot!:D

[AZJD]

Tom please don't make me go all Beaverretriever on you. :mad:
LMAO

[Tom Brown]

NOT TRUE;) A plane can be airborn and flying into wind that is greater than the airspeed thus the groundspeed is less than the airspeed. The air moving over the upper surface of the wing is still providing lift.:idea:
True. A plane flying into the wind has airspeed. Reduce airspeed to zero and the plane would have to be able to defy gravity to stay in the air.

[Rexone]

True. A plane flying into the wind has airspeed. Reduce airspeed to zero and the plane would have to be able to defy gravity to stay in the air.
Tom you are such a friggin dumbass I don't even have words to describe the rage I feel rising within. The plane will have airspeed. Get a grip. :mad:

[Tom Brown]

Why don't you clean the oil stain under your Harley.

[riverbound]

If a tree falls in the forrest and noone is around to hear it.....does it really make a noise??
:idea:

[Boozer]

Tom you are such a friggin dumbass I don't even have words to describe the rage I feel rising within. The plane will have airspeed. Get a grip. :mad:
Tom has shipped me several sub machine guns and asked me to go settle this dispute between him and yourself in the event that you do not get the idiot stick out of your ass and agree with him on this subject. :mad: :D :mad:

[OGShocker]

Something tells me the only thing that will fly is the grease off the wheel bearings.

[Tom Brown]

At this time I would like to let everyone in this thread know, both lurkers and posters, that I hate you.
I'm not talking about your garden variety annoyance. I'm talking full on Hezbollah rage toward the Judaism of ***boat.

[OGShocker]

At this time I would like to let everyone in this thread know, both lurkers and posters, that I hate you.
I'm not talking about your garden variety annoyance. I'm talking full on Hezbollah rage toward the Judaism of ***boat.
Aaaaaaaalah Akbar!!!

[Rexone]

Tom has shipped me several sub machine guns and asked me to go settle this dispute between him and yourself in the event that you do not get the idiot stick out of your ass and agree with him on this subject. :mad: :D :mad:
Tom is such a jackass on this subject I can barely control myself. He's been nerding so long he's lost his grasp on reality in the real world. No wonder he has a 50 mph outboard boat he says goes 70.
The plane is not tied to the conveyor belt. It will accellerate and fly right off it regardless if the belt speed is 200 or 3000 mph in the opposite direction.

[dunaholic]

The plane will not fly. If you are running on a treadmill, do you have any forward momentum? NO...
An aircraft needs airspeed, not ground speed to creat life. I.E air flow must be generated over the lifitng surface(s) (wings) to create lift. All that is going to happen is the plane will stay stationary (as you would runing on a treadmill) thus not creatinga any forward movement of said mass (airplane) therefore not creating any airflow over the lifting surface(s) (wings). the prop creates thrust, not life.
Put this into boat terms:
If your propeller/impeller is creating the same amount of thrust to produce the same speed that a certain body of water is flowing. Let's say the water (river) is flowing 25 mph in a southern direction. the front of your boat (bow) is pointint directly north and you are applying only enough throttle so as the boat does not move with the flow of the river (south). Now imagine that there is not any measurable wind on the surface at the time of this test. Do you feel wind on your face? NO......
No movement of air results in no lift. Got it???

[Jbb]

At this time I would like to let everyone in this thread know, both lurkers and posters, that I hate you.
I'm not talking about your garden variety annoyance. I'm talking full on Hezbollah rage toward the Judaism of ***boat.
Thems pretty strong words the Akbar.....:)

[djunkie]

That shit aint flyin!!!!!!!!!:D :D

[beaverretriever]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys think the plane won't take off...ROTFLMAO.
The wheels do not drive the plane forward. The thrust from the engines do. It doesn't matter which way, or how fast the tread mill is going in any direction.
LOL, I hope you guys are just joking around when you say it wont fly.

[beaverretriever]

Let's assume the friction in the wheel bearings is negligible. Putting a plane on a treadmill is like putting it on an icy lake. When you fire up the jets, the plane is going to shoot down the lake and take off just like it would on a runway.

[CornWater]

That thud you hear is Bernoulli rolling over in his grave...
:rolleyes:

[WYRD]

If it infact could fly dont you think aircraft carriers would have a whole different set up.........maybe this is a good chop idea for TBI:D
No way this will fly, no air movement over the wings:)

[Havasu1986]

At this time I would like to let everyone in this thread know, both lurkers and posters, that I hate you.
I'm not talking about your garden variety annoyance. I'm talking full on Hezbollah rage toward the Judaism of ***boat.
This is about the time that HB went down for awhile and Tom went over to RD's place bragging that he crashed HB. :eek: :D

[Pepperkornski]

NOT TRUE;) A plane can be airborn and flying into wind that is greater than the airspeed thus the groundspeed is less than the airspeed. The air moving over the upper surface of the wing is still providing lift.:idea:
Is the plane lifted by the lower pressure on the top of the wing, or is it pushed up by the higher pressure from the bottom?

[Tom Brown]

Loose lips sink ships, 1986.

[Havasu1986]

Loose lips sink ships, 1986.
Glad I could help. :D

[WYRD]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys think the plane won't take off...ROTFLMAO.
The wheels do not drive the plane forward. The thrust from the engines do. It doesn't matter which way, or how fast the tread mill is going in any direction.
LOL, I hope you guys are just joking around when you say it wont fly.
the only way it would take off on a treadmil is if it was as long as a runway:rolleyes: ;)

[squirt'nmyload]

The plane will not fly. If you are running on a treadmill, do you have any forward momentum? NO...
An aircraft needs airspeed, not ground speed to creat life. I.E air flow must be generated over the lifitng surface(s) (wings) to create lift. All that is going to happen is the plane will stay stationary (as you would runing on a treadmill) thus not creatinga any forward movement of said mass (airplane) therefore not creating any airflow over the lifting surface(s) (wings). the prop creates thrust, not life.
Put this into boat terms:
If your propeller/impeller is creating the same amount of thrust to produce the same speed that a certain body of water is flowing. Let's say the water (river) is flowing 25 mph in a southern direction. the front of your boat (bow) is pointint directly north and you are applying only enough throttle so as the boat does not move with the flow of the river (south). Now imagine that there is not any measurable wind on the surface at the time of this test. Do you feel wind on your face? NO......
No movement of air results in no lift. Got it???
this is all fine & dandy but the plane is not driven by the wheels that are touching the treadmill.

[Froggystyle]

This is so ****in awesome...
I love this place.

[beaverretriever]

That thud you hear is Bernoulli rolling over in his grave...
:rolleyes:
The ground is just there to keep the plane from falling into the center of the earth. (Think of seaplanes ... they can still take off despite lack of significant friction with the ground). Since the air in this example is no different from a usual takeoff, the plane would push off it and move forward as usual. The difference, however, is that as the plane started to move, the wheels of the plane would turn, and the fictional treadmill would increase in speed to match ... which would cause the wheels to turn faster, thus causing the treadmill to move faster, etc ... a mutually reinforcing system, until the wheels and the treadmill both turned to molten lava (and how fast that happens depends on how closely the treadmill could match wheel speed). Meanwhile, the body of the plane would be busy taking off as usual, unaware of the drama happening below (except, perhaps, for the smell of melting rubber).
I think the consequences to the treadmill (infinite acceleration) are what get people forget about and get tripped up by in this example.
BTW, this treadmill is as long as a runway... :)

[@theRVR]

I think it will fly, an airplane only knows air speed so, ground speed is just used to figure time in route, the prop or jets makes the thrust with the air, the wheels will be going twice as fast as they would be without the treadmill when it takes off..

[CornWater]

The ground is just there to keep the plane from falling into the center of the earth. (Think of seaplanes ... they can still take off despite lack of significant friction with the ground). Since the air in this example is no different from a usual takeoff, the plane would push off it and move forward as usual. The difference, however, is that as the plane started to move, the wheels of the plane would turn, and the fictional treadmill would increase in speed to match ... which would cause the wheels to turn faster, thus causing the treadmill to move faster, etc ... a mutually reinforcing system, until the wheels and the treadmill both turned to molten lava (and how fast that happens depends on how closely the treadmill could match wheel speed). Meanwhile, the body of the plane would be busy taking off as usual, unaware of the drama happening below (except, perhaps, for the smell of melting rubber).
I think the consequences to the treadmill (infinite acceleration) are what get people forget about and get tripped up by in this example.
BTW, this treadmill is as long as a runway... :)
Honestly, guys, I hope you are joking when you say it won't take off...
You familiar with Bernoulli? If so, how would you think I'm taking an opposing stance?
:idea:

[maxwedge]

Running on a treadmill is a bad anology. This is more like you are standing on a treadmill wearing rollerblades and you happen to have a Lycoming IO360 strapped to your face and a couple wings attached to your arms. You firewall the throttle on the lycoming. Do you take off. In this case, it's probably more likely your head tears off and you break both your arms, but airplanes are built stronger than your body so they will hold together and fly.:D

[WYRD]

Hold an RC airplane in your hands, rev the engine up to full throtle and let it go without any forward movement, that thing will drop like a bran muffin in browns chonies:D

[CornWater]

Running on a treadmill is a bad anology. This is more like you are standing on a treadmill wearing rollerblades and you happen to have a Lycoming IO360 strapped to your face and a couple wings attached to your arms. You firewall the throttle on the lycoming. Do you take off. In this case, it's probably more likely your head tears off and you break both your arms, but airplanes are built stronger than your body so they will hold together and fly.:D
And there you have it, pretty much sums it up.... Brown will be along shortly to rebut.

[Pepperkornski]

Read the question again. The treadmill plays a crucial roll in the plane's acquisition of speed as long as the plane is not airborne. If it is still on the ground and the wheels are rolling forward at a rate to move the plane at, say 150 mph, the conveyor belt is pulling it backwards at the same 150 mph. So relative to the stationary earth, the plane is going exactly nowhere. This is like going up the steps of the down escalator at the same rate of speed the steps are going down - you get nowhere. And if you are going nowhere and the wind is not blowing, you will not generate any lift at all and therefore will not be able to take off.
Believe it or not ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_dgrBevUOw
YouTube - Plane takes off in 18 feet

[clownpuncher]

Thisis way too funny. I can't believe se're going over this again.
BTW, provided the treadmill is long enough, the plane will take off.
Wheel bearings will take a friggen beating, but, it'll take off.
Why is it so hard to comprehend?:rolleyes: :D

[WYRD]

Running on a treadmill is a bad anology. This is more like you are standing on a treadmill wearing rollerblades and you happen to have a Lycoming IO360 strapped to your face and a couple wings attached to your arms. You firewall the throttle on the lycoming. Do you take off. In this case, it's probably more likely your head tears off and you break both your arms, but airplanes are built stronger than your body so they will hold together and fly.:D
Sounds more like a wile-e-coyote outfit:D

[Moneypitt]

help

[Baja Big Dog]

I think you guys are being a little ruff on Mr Brown...:D

[Racey]

Put this into boat terms:
If your propeller/impeller is creating the same amount of thrust to produce the same speed that a certain body of water is flowing. Let's say the water (river) is flowing 25 mph in a southern direction. the front of your boat (bow) is pointint directly north and you are applying only enough throttle so as the boat does not move with the flow of the river (south). Now imagine that there is not any measurable wind on the surface at the time of this test. Do you feel wind on your face? NO......
No movement of air results in no lift. Got it???
:eek: :idea: Yes but if you had an airboat you could move against the current, since the air thrust is pushing you forward, not the wet thrust created by the prop, just as a plane's thrust is by air, not by the wheels touching the ground. DOHHHH!!!
Who says the plane won't get movement of air, of course it will, and it will drive itself right off the treadmill......

[squirt'nmyload]

Read the question again. The treadmill plays a crucial roll in the plane's acquisition of speed as long as the plane is not airborne. If it is still on the ground and the wheels are rolling forward at a rate to move the plane at, say 150 mph, the conveyor belt is pulling it backwards at the same 150 mph. So relative to the stationary earth, the plane is going exactly nowhere. This is like going up the steps of the down escalator at the same rate of speed the steps are going down - you get nowhere. And if you are going nowhere and the wind is not blowing, you will not generate any lift at all and therefore will not be able to take off.
Believe it or not ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_dgrBevUOw
YouTube - Plane takes off in 18 feet
are you ansel001-ga from google answers??? :D :D

[squirt'nmyload]

come on moneypitt....edit the long post!! :D :D

[Tom Brown]

Some of you people just don't get it.
Let's say your boat is moored to an anchor wall in the channel and you're on the beach cleaning up the beer cans and cigarette butts of the previous tenants. Is your boat on plane?
It doesn't seem likely.

[essexjet]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys think the plane won't take off...ROTFLMAO.
The wheels do not drive the plane forward. The thrust from the engines do. It doesn't matter which way, or how fast the tread mill is going in any direction.
LOL, I hope you guys are just joking around when you say it wont fly.
You need lift i.e. wind/air moving over the wing for a plane to get airborne. If it is stationary on the ground as on a treadmil how are you creating lift? Props and jet thrust push the plane forward creating air to move over the wing. How is standing still creating air movement?

[essexjet]

Wait I was wrong it will take off.................
http://www.navalhelicopterassn.org/Index%20of%20Photographs/V22/osprey%20hovering%203.jpg

[Pepperkornski]

You guys are all familiar with lift, correct? Assuming this is not some sort of rocket we're talking about.
What type of lift? there are many types and no, I am not familiar with any of them.

[squirt'nmyload]

is the fact that the planes engines don't drive the wheels mean anything to anyone? none of these analogies are comparable.

[ratso]

It will take off... trust me...;)

[squirt'nmyload]

also, 10 pages by 8 :D :D

[Pepperkornski]

are you ansel001-ga from google answers??? :D :D
I believe we are on the same page. :D
Ps. it will fly

[beaverretriever]

You familiar with Bernoulli? If so, how would you think I'm taking an opposing stance?
:idea:
No, I am with ya. The Bernoulli equation will come into play when the plane is moving. Doesn't have much to do with the treadmill. ;)

[WYRD]

is the fact that the planes engines don't drive the wheels mean anything to anyone? none of these analogies are comparable.
A plane doesnt fly because of the propeller/jet either, the movement over the wings make it fly using LIFT, it would need forward movement to gain LIFT, the propellers can spin as fast as they want to but as long as the treadmill in counteracting it there will be no LIFT....think of a glider:)

[Moneypitt]

I took out the wide post, please remove the huge picture........MP

[Tom Brown]

Newton's third law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
You can't argue with Newton. End of debate.

[beaverretriever]

Unlike a wheel-driven automobile, aircraft propulsion relies on Newton's Third Law. Thus, when the airplane starts pumping air backward, if the wheels have any reasonable freedom of rotation the plane _will_ move forward regardless of what the damn conveyor is doing.
Given this, the really interesting part of this problem lies in how the conveyor belt's control is programmed. "The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction." If this is taken literally one could argue that, since the wheels start at zero RPM and are not being forced to turn, the conveyor should hold the wheels at zero regardless of the plane's motion (-0 = 0). Thus, the conveyor would follow the plane's motion, and the plane would take off with the wheels at rest.

[essexjet]

What does that have to do with anything? The wheels are there for the plane to establish groundspeed, which in turn creates lift. If the plane is traveling 60 mph on a treadmill that's traveling 60 mph in the opposite direction, it has zero groundspeed. Zero groundspeed means zero lift.
Put you car on a dyno and run it 100 mph and then try walking into the front bumper and tell me how bad it hurt to be hit by a car moving 100 mph.
Good analogy. It will go nowhere :mad:
If you are going up river at 5 knots and the current is pushing you at 5 knots, tell me how far will you go?

[rrrr]

How many of you that think the airplane will fly have any type of flying lesson or ground school experience?
I'm gonna say ~0~. :D

[WYRD]

What does that have to do with anything? The wheels are there for the plane to establish groundspeed, which in turn creates lift. If the plane is traveling 60 mph on a treadmill that's traveling 60 mph in the opposite direction, it has zero groundspeed. Zero groundspeed means zero lift.
Put you car on a dyno and run it 100 mph and then try walking into the front bumper and tell me how bad it hurt to be hit by a car moving 100 mph.
bingo great visual "Bob";)

[squirt'nmyload]

What does that have to do with anything? The wheels are there for the plane to establish groundspeed, which in turn creates lift. If the plane is traveling 60 mph on a treadmill that's traveling 60 mph in the opposite direction, it has zero groundspeed. Zero groundspeed means zero lift.
Put you car on a dyno and run it 100 mph and then try walking into the front bumper and tell me how bad it hurt to be hit by a car moving 100 mph.
the cars engine turns the wheels which is why it will not move on a dyno.
now what if there was a jet engine attached to the roof of the car, wouldn't it move foward when powered up??

[beaverretriever]

Newton's third law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
You can't argue with Newton. End of debate.
LOL, I will repost with TB's quote.
Unlike a wheel-driven automobile, aircraft propulsion relies on Newton's Third Law. Thus, when the airplane starts pumping air backward, if the wheels have any reasonable freedom of rotation the plane _will_ move forward regardless of what the damn conveyor is doing.
Given this, the really interesting part of this problem lies in how the conveyor belt's control is programmed. "The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction." If this is taken literally one could argue that, since the wheels start at zero RPM and are not being forced to turn, the conveyor should hold the wheels at zero regardless of the plane's motion (-0 = 0). Thus, the conveyor would follow the plane's motion, and the plane would take off with the wheels at rest.

[beaverretriever]

I think we need to establish some ground rules. When I envision Mythbusters doing this, I'm envisioning them using a prop driven light aircraft, not an F-4 Phantom. I also envision the treadmill speed to be directly opposite the plane's groundspeed, so that the plane is basically static, not moving opposite at 5 mph so that the plane just taxis off the treadmill.
I believe the original proposition was that a plane could take off from a static position on a treadmill. The only way it would be static is if the treadmill were turning the same speed in reverse. If the plane is allowed to move forward, then eventually it will either take off or run out of treadmill. Neither of which seems to be the question posed.
The original statement says it is a "treadmill the length of a runway". :)

[WYRD]

I think we need to establish some ground rules. When I envision Mythbusters doing this, I'm envisioning them using a prop driven light aircraft, not an F-4 Phantom. I also envision the treadmill speed to be directly opposite the plane's groundspeed, so that the plane is basically static, not moving opposite at 5 mph so that the plane just taxis off the treadmill.
I believe the original proposition was that a plane could take off from a static position on a treadmill. The only way it would be static is if the treadmill were turning the same speed in reverse. If the plane is allowed to move forward, then eventually it will either take off or run out of treadmill. Neither of which seems to be the question posed.
Even if they used an F-4 fantom it still wouldnt take off, assuming they could match the speed of the treadmil to the force of the thrust...

[XFactor]

I'm not reading 3 pages of posts to find out how many idiots actually think this thing will fly. Flight is only achieved with lift which is created from air under the wings. Unless they put a HUGE fan in front of this thing on a treadmill, it's not going anywhere!
Anybody that thinks it will fly is a complete idiot. Why a prop or a jet? Why not a transmission to the wheels? Because once the plane gets airborne it needs continuous forward movement to create air movement under the wing which in turn creates lift.
This thread is like being in a traffic school class. You just can't believe how many idiots are on the road. In this case, I can't believe how many idiots are on the boards.

[essexjet]

I just dont get how people are missing the theory of lift, no forward momentum no air moving over the wing causing lift. :mad:

[beaverretriever]

Really, the plane would take off with no lift? You should contact Boeing or McDonnell Douglas, I'm sure this technology would come in extremely handy for short field takeoff.
LOL, the plane will get lift when it moves forward on the treadmill.:)
The trick to solving these problems is take them in steps. Step number one is turning on the belt with the airplane on it. There may be a bit of initial slippage due do the wheel's spinning before they begin to grab fully (relative to the friction between belt and wheel) and the plane moves backwards. Step two is to bring the plane to a speed consistent with that of the belt. That is to say; make it stop. How much force is require to do this? Very little, only enough to overcome the friction between belt and wheel. Picture it this way; You are on a treadmill wearing roller skates. To stop you from moving backwards all I have to do is put an tiny amount of pressure on your back (a pinky finger's worth would suffice), I don't need to apply 150 founds of pressure because you weigh 150lbs. I need only defeat friction. At this point any additional energy applied would propel the plane forward, and the plane's engine would have plenty of power to spare. It would need a longer runway, but it would not be an exceptional amount.
The damn treadmill has nothing to do with the forward motion of the plane. The wheels are just going to spin faster.
I honestly, can't believe you guys don't get this. :D

[essexjet]

Really, the plane would take off with no lift? You should contact Boeing or McDonnell Douglas, I'm sure this technology would come in extremely handy for short field takeoff.
http://www.navalhelicopterassn.org/Index%20of%20Photographs/V22/osprey%20hovering%203.jpg

[Pepperkornski]

I'm not reading 3 pages of posts to find out how many idiots actually think this thing will fly. Flight is only achieved with lift which is created from air under the wings. Unless they put a HUGE fan in front of this thing on a treadmill, it's not going anywhere!
Anybody that thinks it will fly is a complete idiot. Why a prop or a jet? Why not a transmission to the wheels? Because once the plane gets airborne it needs continuous forward movement to create air movement under the wing which in turn creates lift.
This thread is like being in a traffic school class. You just can't believe how many idiots are on the road. In this case, I can't believe how many idiots are on the boards.
What about that big fan (propeller) hanging out front? Any one heard of induced lift? eh.

[WYRD]

LOL, the plane will get lift when it moves forward on the treadmill.:)
The trick to solving these problems is take them in steps. Step number one is turning on the belt with the airplane on it. There may be a bit of initial slippage due do the wheel's spinning before they begin to grab fully (relative to the friction between belt and wheel) and the plane moves backwards. Step two is to bring the plane to a speed consistent with that of the belt. That is to say; make it stop. How much force is require to do this? Very little, only enough to overcome the friction between belt and wheel. Picture it this way; You are on a treadmill wearing roller skates. To stop you from moving backwards all I have to do is put an tiny amount of pressure on your back (a pinky finger's worth would suffice), I don't need to apply 150 founds of pressure because you weigh 150lbs. I need only defeat friction. At this point any additional energy applied would propel the plane forward, and the plane's engine would have plenty of power to spare. It would need a longer runway, but it would not be an exceptional amount.
The damn treadmill has nothing to do with the forward motion of the plane. The wheels are just going to spin faster.
I honestly, can't believe you guys don't get this. :D
the point is the plane will not move forward on the treadmill, it will stay stationary.................
I feel so much smarter after reading some of the opinions here:D

[beaverretriever]

Really? Is this your first day here.
Half these people can't spell their names and they're going to argue Bernoulli's Principle?
WOW, I am stunned. Bernoulli's equation does not come into play till the plane is in motion. The plane will go into motion as soon as the jets go into thrust mode. :rolleyes:
LOL, you guys are killing me.

[XFactor]

Really? Is this your first day here.
Half these people can't spell their names and they're going to argue Bernoulli's Principle?
True. I've seen dumber threads then this one. ;)

[Tom Brown]

What about that big fan (propeller) hanging out front? Any one heard of induced lift? eh.
I've heard of induced vomiting when a physician isn't sure which cut of the blowfish you've just eaten.

[Sleeper CP]

If the plane isn't moving, how can it possibly take off?
Come on, guys. Use your heads.
I am posting this before I read any further than post number 9.
Mr. Brown is correct and therefore so am I. The answer is: it won't fly and the reason why it won't fly is V= 1/p or Vernolies(sp) principle, where velocity is inversely proportional to pressure.
The reason a plane flys(high performance fighters excluded) is lift not thrust.
Airspeed across a wing creates lift. The air molecules over the top of the wing move faster that the molecules under the wing, because there is less pressure on top of the wing and the low pressure creates lift.
Unless they are going to put a dozen fans in front of the plane to blow air over the wings to simulate air speed it will not take off. Why do you guy's think they tie down airplanes at airports? It's because if a big wing comes along and blows over the wing at the right angle it(the wind) will pick a plane up and make it fly:eek:
As Mr. Brown stated " Use you heads" But then again this is an INTERNET forum if you were using your heads you wouldn't be here in the first place.
Brown what the hell were you thinking:idea:
Now I'll read the rest of this thread and see if anyone other than Brown and I got this right.;)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[XFactor]

What about that big fan (propeller) hanging out front? Any one heard of induced lift? eh.
Not enough air movement. The prop actually causes more lateral movement than horizontal.

[BigBlockBaja]

I called my cousin in the Air Force about this. His first words were, "Oh great, now your going to ask me this?", But I got some info out of him. He told me that the plane will take off. It will take a much longer runway given which plane they decide to test this on. One thing he brought up to me and made sense is when the plane is taking off, there is a time when the planes nose is pointing toward the sky facing the thrust from the engines toward the tarmac. If the tarmac was moving backwards at the same speed the plane was going forward, it would take much more runway to get it up in the air. Like I said, depends on the plane. Big difference from a 747 and a F16.

[beaverretriever]

It's really amazing how many very intelligent people think about this question in the wrong manner. It's not a trick question, just a tricky question. The comment about friction of the ball bearings in the wheels is really negligible to understanding why the plane WILL take off. The key is this: Airplane wheels do not supply any forward motion for the airplane; they are the equivalent of putting roller skates on your feet. When touching the ground, the wheels spin at the exact speed of the airplane, but that is because the engines are pushing the airplane forward, not because the wheels are moving.
All of the forward motion of the plane comes from the planes engines, which are in no way affected by the treadmill. The engines are grabbing air that is standing still in front of them, and pushing it away from the plane, the wheels are only along for the ride. Imagine if you had roller skates on your feet and were standing on a treadmill holding a stationary rope that outstretches in front of you. As the treadmill tries to push you backwards, your grasp on the rope keeps you stationary and your wheels spin. Now, someone begins to reel that rope in. The treadmill can try and compensate, but it only means your wheels spin faster, you will move forward in relative space. The same is true for the plane, only instead of grabbing a rope, the plane grabs the still air in front of it. If you were a passenger on such plane, you wouldn't even notice anything different was happening.

[spectras only]

It will fly , cause MB is building a Harrier :) :D

[beaverretriever]

I'm sure mythbusters will fock it all up, like they do with half the shit. I get what you're saying. You're saying the plane will move forward regardless of any manipulation of the treadmill. If that's the case, then I guess it will take off eventually.
My point is this. Regardless of whether it's a transmission or propeller driven vehicle, it is still developing groundspeed initially. If you can counteract the groundspeed, it will never develop the lift required to take off.
It sounds like our only difference of opinion is whether the plane can actually develop enough groundspeed to counteract the treadmill. I'm not sure if the facilities exist to fully test it properly. I'm sure mythbusters is going to put an RC airplace on a Sears treadmill, turn the speed up to 10 and go. :D
Will repost, just in case you missed it..
It's really amazing how many very intelligent people think about this question in the wrong manner. It's not a trick question, just a tricky question. The comment about friction of the ball bearings in the wheels is really negligible to understanding why the plane WILL take off. The key is this: Airplane wheels do not supply any forward motion for the airplane; they are the equivalent of putting roller skates on your feet. When touching the ground, the wheels spin at the exact speed of the airplane, but that is because the engines are pushing the airplane forward, not because the wheels are moving.
All of the forward motion of the plane comes from the planes engines, which are in no way affected by the treadmill. The engines are grabbing air that is standing still in front of them, and pushing it away from the plane, the wheels are only along for the ride. Imagine if you had roller skates on your feet and were standing on a treadmill holding a stationary rope that outstretches in front of you. As the treadmill tries to push you backwards, your grasp on the rope keeps you stationary and your wheels spin. Now, someone begins to reel that rope in. The treadmill can try and compensate, but it only means your wheels spin faster, you will move forward in relative space. The same is true for the plane, only instead of grabbing a rope, the plane grabs the still air in front of it. If you were a passenger on such plane, you wouldn't even notice anything different was happening.

[Froggystyle]

I'm not reading 3 pages of posts to find out how many idiots actually think this thing will fly... Anybody that thinks it will fly is a complete idiot... This thread is like being in a traffic school class. You just can't believe how many idiots are on the road. In this case, I can't believe how many idiots are on the boards.
Sigged... :D
I am firmly of the belief that if we brought Burt Rutan onto the forums we would not be able to convince apparently half the people on this board that the plane will fly.
So... I am not going to call Burt Rutan. He will think less of boaters afterwards.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Tom is such a jackass on this subject I can barely control myself. He's been nerding so long he's lost his grasp on reality in the real world. No wonder he has a 50 mph outboard boat he says goes 70.
The plane is not tied to the conveyor belt. It will accellerate and fly right off it regardless if the belt speed is 200 or 3000 mph in the opposite direction.
Mike,
At first I thought you had lost your mind but after some thought I know you are right. The treadmill has nothing to do with forward motion as the wheels are not propelling the aircraft forward.
Can I change my vote in the other thread?

[CornWater]

the point is the plane will not move forward on the treadmill, it will stay stationary.................
I feel so much smarter after reading some of the opinions here:D
That's the scary part...
;)

[Tom Brown]

You can't push a rope.

[beaverretriever]

What if the treadmill is able to fully oppose your forward momentum?
All it will do is make the wheels spin faster... The only factor will be minimal drag due to contact patch and bearings.

[Froggystyle]

If anyone cares... Taken from a column titled "The Straight Dope" from the Chicago Tribune in 2006...
"An airplane taxies in one direction on a moving conveyor belt going the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"
03-Feb-2006
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Cecil:
Please, please, please settle this question. The discussion has been going on for ages, and any time someone mentions the words "airplane" or "conveyor belt" everyone starts right back up. Here's the original problem essentially as it was posed to us: "A plane is standing on a runway that can move (some sort of band conveyer). The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction. This conveyer has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyer to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). Can the plane take off?"
There are some difficulties with the wording of the problem, specifically regarding how we define speed, but the spirit of the situation is clear. The solution is also clear to me (and many others), but a staunch group of unbelievers won't accept it. My conclusion is that the plane does take off. Planes, whether jet or propeller, work by pulling themselves through the air. The rotation of their tires results from this forward movement, and has no bearing on the behavior of a plane during takeoff. I claim the only difference between a regular plane and one on a conveyor belt is that the conveyor belt plane's wheels will spin twice as fast during takeoff. Please, Cecil, show us that it's not only theoretically possible (with frictionless wheels) but it's actually possible too. --Berj A. Doudian, via e-mail
Cecil replies:
Excuse me--did I hear somebody say Monty Hall?
On first encounter this question, which has been showing up all over the Net, seems inane because the answer seems so obvious. However, as with the infamous Monty-Hall-three-doors-and-one-prize-problem (see The Straight Dope: "On Let's Make a Deal" you pick Door #1, 02-Nov-1990), the obvious answer is wrong, and you, Berj, are right--the plane takes off normally, with no need to specify frictionless wheels or any other such foolishness. You're also right that the question is often worded badly, leading to confusion, arguments, etc. In short, we've got a topic screaming for the Straight Dope.
First the obvious-but-wrong answer. The unwary tend to reason by analogy to a car on a conveyor belt--if the conveyor moves backward at the same rate that the car's wheels rotate forward, the net result is that the car remains stationary. An aircraft in the same situation, they figure, would stay planted on the ground, since there'd be no air rushing over the wings to give it lift. But of course cars and planes don't work the same way. A car's wheels are its means of propulsion--they push the road backwards (relatively speaking), and the car moves forward. In contrast, a plane's wheels aren't motorized; their purpose is to reduce friction during takeoff (and add it, by braking, when landing). What gets a plane moving are its propellers or jet turbines, which shove the air backward and thereby impel the plane forward. What the wheels, conveyor belt, etc, are up to is largely irrelevant. Let me repeat: Once the pilot fires up the engines, the plane moves forward at pretty much the usual speed relative to the ground--and more importantly the air--regardless of how fast the conveyor belt is moving backward. This generates lift on the wings, and the plane takes off. All the conveyor belt does is, as you correctly conclude, make the plane's wheels spin madly.
A thought experiment commonly cited in discussions of this question is to imagine you're standing on a health-club treadmill in rollerblades while holding a rope attached to the wall in front of you. The treadmill starts; simultaneously you begin to haul in the rope. Although you'll have to overcome some initial friction tugging you backward, in short order you'll be able to pull yourself forward easily.
As you point out, one problem here is the wording of the question. Your version straightforwardly states that the conveyor moves backward at the same rate that the plane moves forward. If the plane's forward speed is 100 miles per hour, the conveyor rolls 100 MPH backward, and the wheels rotate at 200 MPH. Assuming you've got Indy-car-quality tires and wheel bearings, no problem. However, some versions put matters this way: "The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels at any given time, moving in the opposite direction of rotation." This language leads to a paradox: If the plane moves forward at 5 MPH, then its wheels will do likewise, and the treadmill will go 5 MPH backward. But if the treadmill is going 5 MPH backward, then the wheels are really turning 10 MPH forward. But if the wheels are going 10 MPH forward . . . Soon the foolish have persuaded themselves that the treadmill must operate at infinite speed. Nonsense. The question thus stated asks the impossible -- simply put, that A = A + 5 -- and so cannot be framed in this way. Everything clear now? Maybe not. But believe this: The plane takes off.
--CECIL ADAMS

[beaverretriever]

Think of it this way. Say it's a prop-plane. Does the propeller give a hoot how fast its wheels are spinning? No. The propellor just pulls that plane forward until there's enough lift under the wings.
I honestly can put it in any better laymen terms.

[beaverretriever]

If anyone cares... Taken from a column titled "The Straight Dope" from the Chicago Tribune in 2006...
"An airplane taxies in one direction on a moving conveyor belt going the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"
03-Feb-2006
Everything clear now? Maybe not. But believe this: The plane takes off.
--CECIL ADAMS
Well, Wess is on my side. :D Oh, and Cecil Adams... Good enough for me.;)

[Moneypitt]

Are there any reeds on either side of the treadmill?..........

[beaverretriever]

Oh yeah, if Cecil Adams said it, it must be so.
Nah, every aeronautical book and site will agree as well. ;)

[spectras only]

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/four_forces/DI24.htm

[WYRD]

Well my foot tastes like crap, I am solwly seeing the logic here but like I said in a previous post the treadmil would need to be as long as a runway. :eek: :D

[clownpuncher]

I'm not reading 3 pages of posts to find out how many idiots actually think this thing will fly. Flight is only achieved with lift which is created from air under the wings. Unless they put a HUGE fan in front of this thing on a treadmill, it's not going anywhere!
Anybody that thinks it will fly is a complete idiot. Why a prop or a jet? Why not a transmission to the wheels? Because once the plane gets airborne it needs continuous forward movement to create air movement under the wing which in turn creates lift.
This thread is like being in a traffic school class. You just can't believe how many idiots are on the road. In this case, I can't believe how many idiots are on the boards.
Pretty harsh AND ignorant words by someone who is obviously..........WRONG:D

[Froggystyle]

Well my foot tastes like crap, I am solwly seeing the logic here but like I said in a previous post the treadmil would need to be as long as a runway. :eek: :D
You are right... amazingly, for a plane to take off, it's runway will need to be as long as a runway.
Now... if you reverse the treadmill, hit the brakes and let the treadmill...
Just kidding guys. I think the verdict is slowly coming in on this one, eh?

[clownpuncher]

I'm not reading 3 pages of posts to find out how many idiots actually think this thing will fly.
Because once the plane gets airborne it needs continuous forward movement to create air movement under the wing which in turn creates lift.
.
I may be wrong, but, I think it takes air movement ABOVE and below the wings to create lift.
But then again, I may be right;)
.

[Rexone]

Until someone figures out a way to attach the "air" to the "treadmill" the plane will most certainly take off. It's groundspeed (not treadmill speed) will be the same as it normally would with the exception of the excess friction caused by the increased wheel speed the treadmill creates.
The air the plane is pushing or pulling, depending on the plane type, is not attached to the treadmill folks. The air is sitting still and the plane is moving through it if it's propeller is turning. It's irrelevent if this is a Cessna or a jet, same principal... the plane is moving air and moving forward in relation to the ground, thus creating lift. What the treadmill is doing with the wheels on the airplane is unrelated to the plane moving forward through the air.
I'd hate to be the treadmill maintenence guy during this test tho. ;)

[AZJD]

Amazing! You guys are still at it?
This thread originally was the most frustrating thread I have ever read.........
My blood pressure is up right now thinking about it.
Fly little plane, fly away!
Woosa, woosa woosa!:D

[Tom Brown]

I'd like someone to explain how a plane with zero airspeed can take off.

[Froggystyle]

I'd like someone to explain how a plane with zero airspeed can take off.
:D

[Sleeper CP]

That thud you hear is Bernoulli rolling over in his grave...
:rolleyes:
Exactaly V=1/P
The plane will not fly. If you are running on a treadmill, do you have any forward momentum? NO...
boat terms:
. Let's say the water (river) is flowing 25 mph in a southern direction. the front of your boat (bow) is pointint directly north and you are applying only enough throttle so as the boat does not move with the flow of the river (south). Now imagine that there is not any measurable wind on the surface at the time of this test. Do you feel wind on your face? NO......
No movement of air results in no lift. Got it???
I am posting this before I read any further than post number 9.
Mr. Brown is correct and therefore so am I. The answer is: it won't fly and the reason why it won't fly is V= 1/p or Vernolies(sp) principle, where velocity is inversely proportional to pressure. (Bernoulli)
The reason a plane flys(high performance fighters excluded) is lift not thrust.
Airspeed across a wing creates lift. The air molecules over the top of the wing move faster that the molecules under the wing, because there is less pressure on top of the wing and the low pressure creates lift.
Unless they are going to put a dozen fans in front of the plane to blow air over the wings to simulate air speed it will not take off. Why do you guy's think they tie down airplanes at airports? It's because if a big wing comes along and blows over the wing at the right angle it(the wind) will pick a plane up and make it fly:eek:
As Mr. Brown stated " Use you heads" But then again this is an INTERNET forum if you were using your heads you wouldn't be here in the first place.
Brown what the hell were you thinking:idea:
Now I'll read the rest of this thread and see if anyone other than Brown and I got this right.;)
As the question was posed: if the conveyour belt mathes any speed the jet accellerates to There is no way in hell it will fly
I'm glad to see that Brown and I aren't the only two that use are brains.
Airspeed creates lift not thrust. The relative ground speed will be zero because 1" away from the conveyor belt the ground isn't moving and the airspeed will be whatever the wind is that day. It's not that hard guy's.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[squirt'nmyload]

I'd like someone to explain how a plane with zero airspeed can take off.
it will have air speed that is generated from the prop(s) or jet engine :D :)

[Tom Brown]

I have a windbreaker that is reversible. It can be turned inside out so it looks like a different color. Very convenient. :)

[beaverretriever]

Ahhh, its good to actually get through to a couple of you..:D
Just to make it easy for everyone (who still doesn't get it). I will put all my post in one. :)
The ground is just there to keep the plane from falling into the center of the earth. (Think of seaplanes ... they can still take off despite lack of significant friction with the ground). Since the air in this example is no different from a usual takeoff, the plane would push off it and move forward as usual. The difference, however, is that as the plane started to move, the wheels of the plane would turn, and the fictional treadmill would increase in speed to match ... which would cause the wheels to turn faster, thus causing the treadmill to move faster, etc ... a mutually reinforcing system, until the wheels and the treadmill both turned to molten lava (and how fast that happens depends on how closely the treadmill could match wheel speed). Meanwhile, the body of the plane would be busy taking off as usual, unaware of the drama happening below (except, perhaps, for the smell of melting rubber).
I think the consequences to the treadmill (infinite acceleration) are what get people forget about and get tripped up by in this example.
BTW, this treadmill is as long as a runway...
Unlike a wheel-driven automobile, aircraft propulsion relies on Newton's Third Law. Thus, when the airplane starts pumping air backward, if the wheels have any reasonable freedom of rotation the plane _will_ move forward regardless of what the damn conveyor is doing.
Given this, the really interesting part of this problem lies in how the conveyor belt's control is programmed. "The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction." If this is taken literally one could argue that, since the wheels start at zero RPM and are not being forced to turn, the conveyor should hold the wheels at zero regardless of the plane's motion (-0 = 0). Thus, the conveyor would follow the plane's motion, and the plane would take off with the wheels at rest.
Unlike a wheel-driven automobile, aircraft propulsion relies on Newton's Third Law. Thus, when the airplane starts pumping air backward, if the wheels have any reasonable freedom of rotation the plane _will_ move forward regardless of what the damn conveyor is doing.
Given this, the really interesting part of this problem lies in how the conveyor belt's control is programmed. "The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction." If this is taken literally one could argue that, since the wheels start at zero RPM and are not being forced to turn, the conveyor should hold the wheels at zero regardless of the plane's motion (-0 = 0). Thus, the conveyor would follow the plane's motion, and the plane would take off with the wheels at rest.
The trick to solving these problems is take them in steps. Step number one is turning on the belt with the airplane on it. There may be a bit of initial slippage due do the wheel's spinning before they begin to grab fully (relative to the friction between belt and wheel) and the plane moves backwards. Step two is to bring the plane to a speed consistent with that of the belt. That is to say; make it stop. How much force is require to do this? Very little, only enough to overcome the friction between belt and wheel. Picture it this way; You are on a treadmill wearing roller skates. To stop you from moving backwards all I have to do is put an tiny amount of pressure on your back (a pinky finger's worth would suffice), I don't need to apply 150 founds of pressure because you weigh 150lbs. I need only defeat friction. At this point any additional energy applied would propel the plane forward, and the plane's engine would have plenty of power to spare. It would need a longer runway, but it would not be an exceptional amount.
The damn treadmill has nothing to do with the forward motion of the plane. The wheels are just going to spin faster.
It's really amazing how many very intelligent people think about this question in the wrong manner. It's not a trick question, just a tricky question. The comment about friction of the ball bearings in the wheels is really negligible to understanding why the plane WILL take off. The key is this: Airplane wheels do not supply any forward motion for the airplane; they are the equivalent of putting roller skates on your feet. When touching the ground, the wheels spin at the exact speed of the airplane, but that is because the engines are pushing the airplane forward, not because the wheels are moving.
All of the forward motion of the plane comes from the planes engines, which are in no way affected by the treadmill. The engines are grabbing air that is standing still in front of them, and pushing it away from the plane, the wheels are only along for the ride. Imagine if you had roller skates on your feet and were standing on a treadmill holding a stationary rope that outstretches in front of you. As the treadmill tries to push you backwards, your grasp on the rope keeps you stationary and your wheels spin. Now, someone begins to reel that rope in. The treadmill can try and compensate, but it only means your wheels spin faster, you will move forward in relative space. The same is true for the plane, only instead of grabbing a rope, the plane grabs the still air in front of it. If you were a passenger on such plane, you wouldn't even notice anything different was happening.
:D

[WYRD]

Exactaly V=1/P
As the question was posed: if the conveyour belt mathes any speed the jet accellerates to There is no way in hell it will fly
I'm glad to see that Brown and I aren't the only two that use are brains.
Airspeed creates lift not thrust. The relative ground speed will be zero because 1" away from the conveyor belt the ground isn't moving and the airspeed will be whatever the wind is that day. It's not that hard guy's.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
your thinking the plane will stay stationary, it will still move forward at a rate faster than the treadmil no matter how fast the treadmil spins because the wheels are freespining

[Froggystyle]

We have absolutely GOT to find a way to bring organized religion... Christianity specifically... into this discussion.
Lots of parallels... to another thread I seem to remember... and contrary to the physical and scientific laws present in the world we occupy... some have absolutely dug in their heels and made blanket statements regarding others opinons... even those backed by scientific precedence and fact.
I absolutely love it. I love when people who are clearly wrong start just bagging on everyone that doesn't share their misguided beliefs for being idiots.

[clownpuncher]

Exactaly V=1/P
I'm glad to see that Brown and I aren't the only two that use are brains.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
Ummm, that would be "our" brains;) :D

[Rexone]

I'd like someone to explain how a plane with zero airspeed can take off.
If you're on board it would be thrust upward from gas expulsion to an altitude sufficient to gain enough airspeed on the subsequent dive to pull out and fly.
Tom when we're done with this thread I suggest we discuss the theory on submarine buoyancy as it applies to diving ducks.

[clownpuncher]

I'm glad to see that Brown and I aren't the only two that use are brains.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
Ummm, that would be "our" brains;) :D

[WYRD]

We have absolutely GOT to find a way to bring organized religion... Christianity specifically... into this discussion.
Lots of parallels... to another thread I seem to remember... and contrary to the physical and scientific laws present in the world we occupy... some have absolutely dug in their heels and made blanket statements regarding others opinons... even those backed by scientific precedence and fact.
I absolutely love it. I love when people who are clearly wrong start just bagging on everyone that doesn't share their misguided beliefs for being idiots.
I have converted and admited my ignorance:D

[pw_Tony]

We have absolutely GOT to find a way to bring organized religion... Christianity specifically... into this discussion.
Lots of parallels... to another thread I seem to remember... and contrary to the physical and scientific laws present in the world we occupy... some have absolutely dug in their heels and made blanket statements regarding others opinons... even those backed by scientific precedence and fact.
I absolutely love it. I love when people who are clearly wrong start just bagging on everyone that doesn't share their misguided beliefs for being idiots.
So what is YOUR take then? :idea:

[SummitKarl]

This is what I'm saying. A plane without airspeed will fall out of the sky so how can it possibly get off the ground?
:D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Harrier.av8b.750pix.jpg
:p

[AZJD]

Aggrivating fukkin thread!:mad:

[Rexone]

Mike,
At first I thought you had lost your mind but after some thought I know you are right. The treadmill has nothing to do with forward motion as the wheels are not propelling the aircraft forward.
Can I change my vote in the other thread?
I have lost my mind. It was about 6 years ago tho when I joined this forum. Airplanes and treadmills were not a factor.
As long as you don't vote for Hildabeast you can change your vote.

[pw_Tony]

Please take that HUGE ass picture off so I can enjoy this in peace

[spectras only]

it will have air speed that is generated from the prop(s) or jet engine :D :)
The forward thrust is generated from the engine via the prop and needs to be greater than drag to create forward movement . The top of the wing of an airplane needs forward movement [ airspeed ] to generate lift to overcome of the weight of the airplane . The propwash or a jet behind the fuselage doesn't cover the area of the wing to lift an airplane . The conveyor MB's is building must be a long one :)

[Rexone]

Thank you for that lovely small picture Karl.
The forum is much easier to read now.

[Tom Brown]

Come on you guys, use your heads.
If a plane flys over a treadmill, it's not going to be knocked off course or gain any altitude.
A treadmill will not provide any lift to an aircraft.

[AZJD]

The treadmill will just make the damn wheels spin equal to the speed at which it is rotating! AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[Tom Brown]

Thank you for that lovely small picture Karl.
The forum is much easier to read now.
Thanks for trying to keep this thread on track, Mike. I wish you well with that. :D

[AZJD]

PW please delete that pic from your quote? Please....pretty please!:D

[AZJD]

Oh shit! What if the parking brake is left on....... Then it won't take off.:eek:

[Rexone]

Newton's third law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
You can't argue with Newton. End of debate.
At least Newton was smarter than you, dumass.

[ratso]

I solved it but can't post the link :(

[Tom Brown]

At least Newton was smarter than you, dumass.
I will concede that one. :)

[Nord]

:confused:
I guess we will all be in front of the TV the day this Myth Busters comes on and find out.......

[LUVNLIFE]

It will not take off. Period so quit overthinking the original question. Noone said anything about airspeed only groundspeed;) If it's on a treadmill it's on the ground.

[squirt'nmyload]

:confused:
I guess we will all be in front of the TV the day this Myth Busters comes on and find out.......
i say we all show up in person for it :D :D

[AZJD]

Please read:
A plane doesn't increase velocity by pushing off the groud; it does so by pushing off the air. The ground is just there to keep the plane from falling into the center of the earth. (Think of seaplanes ... they can still take off despite lack of significant friction with the ground). Since the air in this example is no different from a usual takeoff, the plane would push off it and move forward as usual. The difference, however, is that as the plane started to move, the wheels of the plane would turn, and the fictional treadmill would increase in speed to match ... which would cause the wheels to turn faster, thus causing the treadmill to move faster, etc ... a mutually reinforcing system, until the wheels and the treadmill both turned to molten lava (and how fast that happens depends on how closely the treadmill could match wheel speed). Meanwhile, the body of the plane would be busy taking off as usual, unaware of the drama happening below (except, perhaps, for the smell of melting rubber).

[Sleeper CP]

your thinking the plane will stay stationary, it will still move forward at a rate faster than the treadmill no matter how fast the treadmil spins because the wheels are freespining
At some point the engine's will only create so much thrust therefore only so much forward momentum. As the thesis is stated I am inferring that the conveyor is designed to keep the plane stationary. Is that not correct:confused: If you run on a treadmill and you have a friend controlling the speed as you try to run faster and the treadmill is 10 feet long you would never be able to get to the end of the treadmill if your friend can instantly match your speed as posed in the thesis, could you not :confused: I don't think you could reach the end because if you did it is obvious that he wasn't able to match your speed. The thesis states the the conveyor would instantly match the speed. Well, if it could there would be zero forward progress. No ground speed=no airspeed. It's lift not thrust that makes a plane fly.
Sleeper CP

[ratso]

Plane vs Treadmill on youtube... won't let me post a link.

[AZJD]

At some point the engine's will only create so much thrust therefore only so much forward momentum. As the thesis is stated I am inferring that the conveyor is designed to keep the plane stationary. Is that not correct:confused: If you run on a treadmill and you have a friend controlling the speed as you try to run faster and the treadmill is 10 feet long you would never be able to get to the end of the treadmill if your friend can instantly match your speed as posed in the thesis, could you not :confused: I don't think you could reach the end because if you did it is obvious that he wasn't able to match your speed. The thesis states the the conveyor would instantly match the speed. Well, if it could there would be zero forward progress. No ground speed=no airspeed. It's lift not thrust that makes a plane fly.
Sleeper CP
If you run on a treadmill the forward momentum comes from pushing on the ground!!!!! Airplanes use props. They push on the air! FFFUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKK:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I have lost my mind. It was about 6 years ago tho when I joined this forum. Airplanes and treadmills were not a factor.
As long as you don't vote for Hildabeast you can change your vote.
Mike, at first thought the idea of the teradmill caused me to think that it in some way would absorb the speed. The direstion of the wheels or speed of the wheels is moot. Duh!
It's a deal with regard to the beast :D :D
At some point the engine's will only create so much thrust therefore only so much forward momentum. As the thesis is stated I am inferring that the conveyor is designed to keep the plane stationary. Is that not correct:confused: If you run on a treadmill and you have a friend controlling the speed as you try to run faster and the treadmill is 10 feet long you would never be able to get to the end of the treadmill if your friend can instantly match your speed as posed in the thesis, could you not :confused: I don't think you could reach the end because if you did it is obvious that he wasn't able to match your speed. The thesis states the the conveyor would instantly match the speed. Well, if it could there would be zero forward progress. No ground speed=no airspeed. It's lift not thrust that makes a plane fly.
Sleeper CP
Scp, the wheel speed means nothing. A conveyor can't keep the plane stationary

[Tom Brown]

Who in this thread is drunk?

[AZJD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

[pw_Tony]

If you run on a treadmill the forward momentum comes from pushing on the ground!!!!! Airplanes use props. They push on the air! FFFUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKK:D
Yea but if I was on roller skates on a treadmill and turned it on I would start to go backwards.
OK now I have a big fan behind me pushing me with air.... but it has to push it as hard to keep my speed equal with the treadmill.
Does that make sense?
Weight is a factor on the wheel is it not?

[AZJD]

Watch the video! I am done!! The damn plane will fly..............

[Tom Brown]

I thought this was put to rest a while back.
You're correct Dune BUT if the forward momentum was plane pushing against ground on the treadmill (by the wheels) then you'd get no forward movement. How ever the propulsion unit ( prop or thrust(jet) is pushing against the atmosphere which is the same case as always so therefore plane will take off. It will fly (rotate) at the same "airspeed" that it normally would if in fact there was no head or tail wind. The wheels will only match the speed of the treadmill as they are freewheeling. Got it?
Rio
Help these POSes understand why the plane won't fly, Rio. http://www.***boat.com/ubb/mad.gif

[Jbb]

...rd Sux!!..:p

[pw_Tony]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
Interesting.... :idea:

[Instigators]

The plane will not fly. If you are running on a treadmill, do you have any forward momentum? NO...
An aircraft needs airspeed, not ground speed to creat life. I.E air flow must be generated over the lifitng surface(s) (wings) to create lift. All that is going to happen is the plane will stay stationary (as you would runing on a treadmill) thus not creatinga any forward movement of said mass (airplane) therefore not creating any airflow over the lifting surface(s) (wings). the prop creates thrust, not life.
Put this into boat terms:
If your propeller/impeller is creating the same amount of thrust to produce the same speed that a certain body of water is flowing. Let's say the water (river) is flowing 25 mph in a southern direction. the front of your boat (bow) is pointint directly north and you are applying only enough throttle so as the boat does not move with the flow of the river (south). Now imagine that there is not any measurable wind on the surface at the time of this test. Do you feel wind on your face? NO......
No movement of air results in no lift. Got it???
Another commercial pilot.:D Just push the sticks further forward and viola, the engines start to generate forward thrust via airspeed, and additional ground speed. If you fly anybody anywhere the only place you will fly them is right into the ground.:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Help these POSes understand why the plane won't fly, Rio. http://www.***boat.com/ubb/mad.gif
Tom, the conveyor would just cause the wheels to turn at a different speed.

[clownpuncher]

Watch the video! I am done!! The damn plane will fly..............
:D :D

[Tom Brown]

I'm enjoying this discussion very much. :)

[AZJD]

:D Ban me! I don't want to play anymore!:D
Is it December yet?

[Phat Matt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZGdUAiMcPs
lol

[squirt'nmyload]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
perfect :)

[squirt'nmyload]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[Havasu1986]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
Case closed for me Justin..thanks. :D On to another thread :)

[Sleeper CP]

Ummm, that would be "our" brains;) :D
That would be correct. At least I didn't call anyone a dumb ass:o
If you run on a treadmill the forward momentum comes from pushing on the ground!!!!! Airplanes use props. They push on the air! FFFUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKK:D
The pushing of the air creates forward momentum. One would infer from the original thesis that the conveyor is designed to keep the plane stationary or why else would it be able to match the speed instantly:idea: :confused:
As I understand the question, a typical plane needs forward motion to create lift. No lift no flight. That is where Harriors,and V-1's and Helicopters come in. They don't need forward movement(air speed or ground speed) to create thrust. A prop plane can create some airspeed over the wings that creates some lift. And certain STOL plane's are designed to take advantage of engine created thrust but your typical plane is not.
Sleeper CP

[Tom Brown]

Has anyone studied the early German v1 rocket program?
The original design called for launching the rockets with a treadmill but during an early experiment, the treadmill was connected backwards, resisting the thrust of the rocket, causing the flying bomb to remain on the ground and kill all involved.

[Nord]

Imagine if the plane was on one of these........................
http://www.con-tec.com.au/images/elements/system.jpg
The plane would still take off :)

[SummitKarl]

Please read:
A plane doesn't increase velocity by pushing off the groud; it does so by pushing off the air. The ground is just there to keep the plane from falling into the center of the earth. (Think of seaplanes ... they can still take off despite lack of significant friction with the ground). Since the air in this example is no different from a usual takeoff, the plane would push off it and move forward as usual. The difference, however, is that as the plane started to move, the wheels of the plane would turn, and the fictional treadmill would increase in speed to match ... which would cause the wheels to turn faster, thus causing the treadmill to move faster, etc ... a mutually reinforcing system, until the wheels and the treadmill both turned to molten lava (and how fast that happens depends on how closely the treadmill could match wheel speed). Meanwhile, the body of the plane would be busy taking off as usual, unaware of the drama happening below (except, perhaps, for the smell of melting rubber).
AZ "Snoops" JD:D :D
now if the plane was in a 200mph head wind at 200mph (air speed) would it fly?:) :confused:

[spectras only]

On a real windy day, go down to your local airport and find the lightest plane you can and you just might see it flying (wheels off the ground) while it is still chained to the ground.
Next,
rio
seagulls doing that , but they have to take off first :) . If you remove the tether cords from the airplane it would just flip over not fly :) :D

[Nord]

Has anyone studied the early German v1 rocket program?
The original design called for launching the rockets with a treadmill but during an early experiment, the treadmill was connected backwards, resisting the thrust of the rocket, causing the flying bomb to remain on the ground and kill all involved.
lol
So the treadmill was faster than the thrusts of the rocket??

[riverroyal]

remind before us this airs,I think there should be some cash bets going on:idea:

[Sleeper CP]

remind before us this airs,I think there should be some cash bets going on:idea:
I'm in.:D
Sleeper CP

[Rexone]

Tom, the fishing has been pretty decent today... no?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/thumbs/732fishing3.gif http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/thumbs/732fishing1.gif

[Jbb]

Akbar wants this thread, and the infidels...to die!...
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42639&stc=1&d=1194490379

[Tom Brown]

Hey... don't blow my cover. I may have a few more than my daily limit. :D

[Jbb]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42641&stc=1&d=1194490981

[XFactor]

I may be wrong, but, I think it takes air movement ABOVE and below the wings to create lift.
But then again, I may be right;)
.
Possibly. But I think it takes wind under for up force and wind above for down force.
Maybe I'm wrong....................but I doubt it.:D ;) :D

[maxwedge]

How many of you that think the airplane will fly have any type of flying lesson or ground school experience?
I'm gonna say ~0~. :D
I'm a Pilot, had plenty of ground school, a few physics classes too. The plane flys. Now what was your excuse for being wrong again?:D

[CARLSON-JET]

Scenario # 1 Air frame speed = 100 Knots according to GPS. Wheel speed= 200 knots. treadmill speed = 200 knots. Simple math shows 100 knots of speed for takeoff.
In a small plane this is more then enough to generate lift.
Now if this were a glider, it would never happen. I'm betting on take off.

[Sleeper CP]

If you run on a treadmill the forward momentum comes from pushing on the ground!!!!! Airplanes use props. They push on the air! FFFUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKK:D
Scp, the wheel speed means nothing. A conveyor can't keep the plane stationary
[/COLOR]
I thought this was put to rest a while back.
You're correct Dune( with this one statement) BUT if the forward momentum was plane pushing against ground on the treadmill (by the wheels) then you'd get no forward movement. How ever the propulsion unit ( prop or thrust(jet) is pushing against the atmosphere which is the same case as always so therefore plane will take off. It will fly (rotate) at the same "airspeed" that it normally would if in fact there was no head or tail wind. The wheels will only match the speed of the treadmill as they are freewheeling. Got it?
Rio
I get what you all are trying to say and I watched the video, but I'm real slow sometimes,i so before I call my uncle and ask him ( F-8 and F-4 pilot flew F-14's a few times with 800+ carrier landings) he'll know the answer, I'll pose this:
The video is inconclusive for the following reason: Power to weight ratio. The parameter's that a toy plane operates in is far different than a 150,000 pound or 250,000 lbs airliner with a power to weight ratio of .5:1
If a fighter jet ,and there are very few, with power to weight ratio's of 1:1 can fly vertical ,I can see it accelerating beyond the conveyor. If however the jetliner has a power to weight ratio of .5:1 or .6:1 I'm not sure that it can do it. :confused:
The jetliner needs a certain airspeed over the wings to create lift. No lift no flying. Rio's statement assumes that because the props or jet engines are processing as much air as they otherwise would, that airspeed is created over the wings. I think the speed of the air would only be fast enough at the jet intakes and a one foot away the air would be relatively still.
You would not create enough lift across a large enough area of the wing to create the needed lift to raise the plane. Just my .02
But I could be wrong, so tomorrow I will call my Uncle and two other Fighter pilots and now commercial air pilots that I know.
Sleeper CP
From the state of confusion:confused:

[Rexone]

Once again.
The air is not moving or attached to the treadmill. It is still.
Therefore as soon as you spin a propeller attached to an airplane through this still air, said airplane will move forward, just as it would sitting on the ground in this same still air. This is true regardless of what a treadmill or otherwise does under the airplanes wheels in response to this movement through the air.
If the driving force was produced through the airplane's wheels which would drive off the treadmill this would be a completely different scenario. But it is not. The driving force is through the air which is not moving with the treadmill surface.

[Rexone]

Why don't you clean the oil stain under your Harley.
btw Tom, my Harley doesn't leak a drop. Friggin Canatards. :rolleyes:
Maybe you should go clean the fouled plugs in your smokey whacker.

[Sleeper CP]

RIO,
It was late but I got it. Interesting question I must say. I asked two pilots and there first assumption was no it can't fly. Then they thought about it and changed their minds, well one changed his mind the other said he would get back to me on it today. I didn't get a chance to call my Uncle, I wonder what his first blush will be.:idea:
Better late to the party than not at all:o . There were people that thought the world was flat for along time and that the Sun revolved around the earth or that we never made it to the moon for that matter. Hell there are still people that think there is a God.............;)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[NICE PAIR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
Good Job AZJD.:D

[spectras only]

Spectras only, you are wrong. The reason the plane would flip over is because there is no pilot to control or direct the control surfaces of the plane. The wing would still be generating lift which for this discussion = flying.
Rio
Rio , I'm sorry if you missed the humour in my post :) , I know it could be difficult to understand my jibberish sometimes :D

[@theRVR]

If the tread mill was to create a headwind then yes the tread mill will have an effect on it taking off.
The thrust is made from the prop and the air, not through the wheel.
An airplane with floats or skies will take off, because the power is generate through the prop not the wheel, so again the wheels will be spinning twice as fast as it would if there was not tread mill.

[dunaholic]

this is all fine & dandy but the plane is not driven by the wheels that are touching the treadmill.
What does this mean? A plane's wheels don't have anything to do with the forces that create lift. Aircraft wheels are free from any sort of mechanical device short of brakes to slow it down after landing.

[dunaholic]

:eek: :idea: Yes but if you had an airboat you could move against the current, since the air thrust is pushing you forward, not the wet thrust created by the prop, just as a plane's thrust is by air, not by the wheels touching the ground. DOHHHH!!!
Who says the plane won't get movement of air, of course it will, and it will drive itself right off the treadmill......
Not saying that you could not move forward with added power. Remember I said "just enough power to counteract the force (speed) of the water". If the treadmill is moving in direct correlation to the thrust of the prop of the airplane the mass will not move. Just as you don't have forward momentum when you run on a treadmill. If you run faster than the treadmill is going then you will move forward. If you keep the speed of the treadmill as fast as the speed the aircraft can obtain on the ground it will not move either. It must have forward movement to creat lift.

[Sleeper CP]

Not saying that you could not move forward with added power. Remember I said "just enough power to counteract the force (speed) of the water". If the treadmill is moving in direct correlation to the thrust of the prop of the airplane the mass will not move. Just as you don't have forward momentum when you run on a treadmill. If you run faster than the treadmill is going then you will move forward. If you keep the speed of the treadmill as fast as the speed the aircraft can obtain on the ground it will not move either. It must have forward movement to creat lift.
Fortunately or unfortunately I got converted last night. I was in your camp and thought along the same line's: the plane would require a power to weight ratio of better than 1:1 to make it take off.
But, a plane doesn't have a power to weight ratio of greater than 1:1 to get it to taxi. It only has to have enough power to break the friction of the bearings,and contact patch of the tire to the ground. After that,the thrust of the jet or prop is accelerating the plane, the ground is not relevant to the argument as long as the tire's free-wheel. The wheel's will just spin twice as fast as other's have stated.
The plane is not chained to the treadmill.
That should be the correct answer:idea:
Sleeper CP

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Fortunately or unfortunately I got converted last night. I was in your camp and thought along the same line's: the plane would require a power to weight ratio of better than 1:1 to make it take off.
But, a plane doesn't have a power to weight ratio of greater than 1:1 to get it to taxi. It only has to have enough power to break the friction of the bearings,and contact patch of the tire to the ground. After that,the thrust of the jet or prop is accelerating the plane, the ground is not relevant to the argument as long as the tire's free-wheel. The wheel's will just spin twice as fast as other's have stated.
The plane is not chained to the treadmill.
That should be the correct answer:idea:
Sleeper CP
:D :D

[HavaSkank]

All this talk of thrusting and friction is making me moist.
Oh wait. Nevermind. It's just my incontinence.

[desertbird]

...and perhaps this 8 yr old can help you to see that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

[H2O]

This "hypothetical" treadmill talk is all well and good, but did you know that if you put instant coffee in the microwave you will go backwards in time???

[Troy McClure]

HEY..Mythbusters is showing what happens when a bus passes behind a Jet at full throttle. The bus FLYS ,,
Watch that and It's GOT to convert the hold outs....:confused: :confused: :D

[Chico&Zeus]

For everyone that thinks the plane would not take off (TOM!!!)
Let's consider the Earth
The circumference of the Earth at the equator is 25,000 miles. The Earth rotates in about 24 hours. Therefore, if you were to hang above the surface of the Earth at the equator without moving, you would see 25,000 miles pass by in 24 hours, at a speed of 25000/24 or just over 1000 miles per hour.
Multiply by cosine of your latitude to see how fast the Earth is rotating where you are.
NOW, 1000 Miles per hour is a pretty damn fast treadmill, if we conisder the Earth's roation as a treadmill, no planes would be able to take off against the rotational spin of the Earth:jawdrop: :idea:

[LaveyJet]

Most people fall in to the trap of the "puzzle", This is like one of those "word problems" from high school math. The problem says it tracks "the planes speed". Go back to basics, what is the definition of speed? Displacement divided by time. Use a GPS speedometer. The plane has to move before the conveyor moves, if the plane does not move the conveyor does not move. Almost everyone is used to measuring speed using their cars speedometer and the try to apply the same logic to the problem. If you put your car on a dyno, it isn't moving, it has zero speed but the wheels are going 60 mph.

[mbrown2]

Did not read the entire thread, but when is the MB episode going to be aired?

[LaveyJet]

Did not read the entire thread, but when is the MB episode going to be aired?
I Think I saw Dec 12th somewhere.