Is Waterboarding Torture? [Archive]

PDA

View Full Version : Is Waterboarding Torture?

moneypit

11-09-2007, 01:40 PM

Better than huffing poop:jawdrop: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLfRCkZuxQ)

Screaming Pete

11-09-2007, 01:53 PM

not if the US does it we are safe and human, not like those other countries:sqeyes:

topless

11-09-2007, 02:08 PM

not if the US does it we are safe and human, not like those other countries:sqeyes:
And if you follow the proper water boarding procedure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GcXl1y_mQw).

Kachina26

11-09-2007, 02:38 PM

I'm guessing Daniel Pearl would have preferred it to what he was subjected to. Put me in the don't care camp!

2Driver

11-09-2007, 03:26 PM

I'm not convinced that countries that use physically damaging torture will stop because we don't torture.
Let's say we capture a guy who knows the location of 3 nuclear bombs set to go off in 48 hours. In addition, he knows where the people responsible are located. What do you do, get him an hazelnut frappucinno and ask nicely?

Froggystyle

11-09-2007, 03:29 PM

I have been waterboarded. It sucks, but no way no how could be considered torture.
All you really need to do is keep people cold. At the edge of hypothermia for long enough you will do anything to warm up. Then, start waterboarding them.

Jbb

11-09-2007, 03:31 PM

Cold Ethel...:jawdrop:

Tom Brown

11-09-2007, 03:32 PM

Only women bleed...

Jbb

11-09-2007, 03:42 PM

Only women bleed...
So sez Alice....:D

hoolign

11-09-2007, 04:22 PM

502 JET

11-09-2007, 04:38 PM

But I bet gas would be more effective.:crossx:

ULTRA26 # 1

11-09-2007, 04:39 PM

Better than huffing poop:jawdrop: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLfRCkZuxQ)
I don't know much about it but it sure does appear to be torture. Seems that if it didn't stop the person would die.

DeltaSigBoater

11-09-2007, 04:43 PM

Make him run on a treadmill for 96 hours, you'll get some answers out of him :D

HocusPocus

11-09-2007, 05:04 PM

torture.... sure it is.
necessary, absolutely. we are at war and these extremists will stop at nothing to kill as many of US as they can.

ULTRA26 # 1

11-09-2007, 05:05 PM

Make him run on a treadmill for 96 hours, you'll get some answers out of him :D
Torture for sure :)

hoolign

11-09-2007, 05:35 PM

Whatever happened to a good old shoot a hole in his knee?? In the words of Larry the cable guy..." git er dun" :idea:

HocusPocus

11-09-2007, 05:44 PM

Then you turn into the same kind of animal as the animal you despise so much.
no, that would require me to produce a video cutting off the heads of these extremists.

HocusPocus

11-09-2007, 05:47 PM

It's good that you have a well defined sense of what does and does not constitute torture. So, if you torture them without your Sony Handycam, it doesn't count?
no.. because with the waterboarding they can walk away when done.

Schiada76

11-09-2007, 06:00 PM

Water boarding is psychological torture, it won't drown or debilitate anyone and it works.
Sleep deprivation, isolation, loud noise, heat, cold etc. should all be used.
IMHO
Now if you positively know that your captive can immediately save thousands of lives if you can get him to talk, break out the torch.:devil:
I don't think there's a man here that wouldn't do the same, say if some dirt bag had your child buried alive and the only to save him or her would be to stoop to the lowest level, the level of the scumbag that holds the life of your child in his hands.

ULTRA26 # 1

11-09-2007, 06:07 PM

Boatcop

11-09-2007, 06:08 PM

I look at torture as something that causes permanent physical harm or disfigurement.
Bamboo shoots under the findernails, Cutting off fingers or toes or :eek:. That kind of stuff.
Making someone think they're going to die, isn't torture. When it's all said and done, they walk away.
Like the Abu Ghraib stuff. I went through far worse in 4 crossing "initiations" (Dateline, Equator, Arctic Circle and Antarctic Circle) and Chief Petty Officer Initiation.
Ask Froggy what he went through at Coronado. I'm sure at the time he'd rather have been waterboarded.
What are we supposed to do to a bunch of animals who would kill us all at the drop of a hat, when they have information that could save our servicemen and women and ourselves?
The problem with all this is the publicity about classified information. Now all the terrorists know that even if we waterboard them, they won't die, so theyll clam up. So now we have to come up with new techniques.
And I thought all those Jihadists wanted to die anyway? Or maybe that's for the low peons. :rolleyes:

vee-driven

11-09-2007, 06:43 PM

Give me the names bitch!

Schiada76

11-09-2007, 07:26 PM

Schiada,
It appears to me that if your kept the victim's lungs full of water the victim would drown. Am I wrong about this, as I really don't know.
U26, From what I've read it gives the person being waterboarded the sensation of drowning without physical implications. I don'r think it gets water in your lungs until you panic and inhale. Not having experienced it however I can't be 100% positive.:D
Along the lines of BC's post, it's true the SEALS are physically tortured.
A good friend of mine is an instructor and they DROWN people. Truly drown them, jump start them on the deck and ask them if they want to quit. :D
I have been in the ocean a hell of lot and have seen people panic in the water more than a few times, they are helpless once they panic. W boarding panics them.

Schiada76

11-09-2007, 07:27 PM

Give me the names bitch!
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
I vill talk I vill talk!!!!!
Damn that burnt flesh smells!:eek:

Redwing247

11-09-2007, 08:11 PM

Better than huffing poop:jawdrop: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLfRCkZuxQ)
Send those morons to one of the radical Islamic country........they will know what torture is. :mad: dumbshit.

boat boy

11-09-2007, 08:57 PM

Like the Abu Ghraib stuff.
As Bill Handel would say, some men would pay good money for this type of treatment. Regarding torture, don't give a damn what the sissy liberials think, after 911 take off the kid gloves and let everything fly. Coinning a term we hear alot in our business "Means and Methods", bring it on and give them everything weve got. If anyone is going to try and argue the other side of this with me, TALK TO THE HAND, THE EARS CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!

riverbound

11-09-2007, 09:08 PM

U26, From what I've read it gives the person being waterboarded the sensation of drowning without physical implications. I don'r think it gets water in your lungs until you panic and inhale. Not having experienced it however I can't be 100% positive.:D
Along the lines of BC's post, it's true the SEALS are physically tortured.
A good friend of mine is an instructor and they DROWN people. Truly drown them, jump start them on the deck and ask them if they want to quit. :D
I have been in the ocean a hell of lot and have seen people panic in the water more than a few times, they are helpless once they panic. W boarding panics them.
I would quit... I cant stand the feeling of being held under water... I freak out.
as far as torture goes...my Brother in Law is in the marines (recon). Some of the things they do in there training is IMO torture. but it makes them ale to do the stuff they do. As others have said if it will help save a life or many lives....torture away.

Pheelin Phroggy

11-10-2007, 06:19 AM

yep... you can put me on the "whatever it takes to protect our women and children" from these radical pieces of sheeeeet list!

pumpercaptain

11-10-2007, 08:27 AM

And the problem with cutting THEIR heads off is???? So what?
Another vial POS camel cocc sucker waisting good God given air removed from this world and on to meet his virgins...
I say shove a piece of frozen pork up their ass along with some WTC dust and a few airplane parts and off'em.
You liberals are going to be the downfall of this great country.
Wake up America. Read your history, say around the timeframe of 1937 1938 or so...
Not too many folks in this great world of ours likes the ole USA, until the checks with our tax money are passed out.
I got my first and only lesson I need about Islam, Arabs, and towel heads on 9-11-01 at app. 0850hrs.
God bless our great warriors who are engaged in this global conflict!!
Eat hot lead!!
No further.

Sleeper CP

11-10-2007, 08:30 AM

I'm guessing Daniel Pearl would have preferred it to what he was subjected to. Put me in the don't care camp!
That's just to simple, but I agree 100%. Seen the tape:( :jawdrop:
Ask the Aba Grab prisoners if they would trade places with Mr. Pearl. I know what their answer's would be.
I have been waterboarded. It sucks, but no way no how could be considered torture.
.
I was speaking of torture in general, maybe I shouldn't have quoted your post. I don't know what waterboarding is. I don't really care to.
The minute you start dehumanizing people, it becomes very easy to escalate to video taping cutting their heads off.
Oh come on now. Under that defenition you couldn't even yell at them.:idea: :mad:
I look at torture as something that causes permanent physical harm or disfigurement.
Bamboo shoots under the findernails, Cutting off fingers or toes or :eek:. That kind of stuff.
Making someone think they're going to die, isn't torture. When it's all said and done, they walk away.
The problem with all this is the publicity about classified information. Now all the terrorists know that even if we waterboard them, they won't die, so theyll clam up. So now we have to come up with new techniques.
:
I know I'm not going to change anyones mind on this, but I think there is a difference between "torment" and torture.
Waterboarding as torture, no . It will scare the hell out of you though.
We can think the lib's and the like's of John Mc Cain for blowing the classified information. Rat bastard's anyway:mad:
Sleeper CP

bigq

11-10-2007, 09:30 AM

Not torture anymore now it's on the Internet so everyone knows it will not kill you.;)
Slicing off a head would still worry me though, it looked kinda painful for a few seconds:(

H2O

11-10-2007, 09:43 AM

I say make 'em Wakeboard on Lake Havasu, mid-afternoon chop, on Memorial Day Weekend for 3 or 4 hours a day until they talk.
No mercy for those bastards!

Boozer

11-10-2007, 09:49 AM

I find it hard to feel sympathy for a group of extremists who feel strapping bombs to the backs of children and sending them into public places to kill innocent people.
Since when was war about being a humanitarian?
We do what we must to protect our own as does our enemy.
This waterboarding sh*t is hardly torture.

moneypit

11-10-2007, 10:40 AM

when it comes to azzholes, I don't care if they torture them or not. If these people know they could get caught doing bad things to the US, then they know that torture is a possibility. I say that waterboarding is only the start. Then work up to worse tortures, like huffing hilary farts....

Kachina26

11-10-2007, 10:52 AM

Better than huffing poop:jawdrop: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLfRCkZuxQ)
Come to think of it, listening to that screaming bitch had to be worse than the waterboarding!

talkinghead

11-10-2007, 10:53 AM

yes

Cigalert

11-10-2007, 10:56 AM

I got waterboarded once just outside of Dana coming back from the butterfly heading towards Newport.

Keith E. Sayre

11-10-2007, 11:44 AM

I agree with "Pumpercaptain" 100%. As for torture, remember about 6 months
ago when they would kill about 150 people randomly and dump them in the
streets every day in Baghdad. Remember how they tortured these people
with electric drills to all parts of the body before killing them? That's what
they did to their own. I say whatever it takes to protect innocent people
and the USA and our few allies.

delemorte

11-10-2007, 12:01 PM

It is torture. the US prosecuted the japanese for it after WW2. Its against the geneva convention, of which we signed and have thrown in alot of peopls faces since we signed it until recently.
Morally i understand the military has to do what it needs to do and agree if it saves lives then the red is positive and the black is negative. My concerns are?
People have died from this so are you sure you got the right dude before you potentially kill him?
To make you stop people will admit to anything as long as you stop. I can make you confess to killing JFK as long as there are no rules. (reference red is positive and black negative from above).
Lastly we as a country bitch and moan about our boys when they are tortured so how can we look at this and say it is not?
As far as it not having lasting affects, if you dont consider PTSD a long lasting affect i have a few vets from Nam to introduce you too and a few rangers from Gulf war one you can talk to as well.
As far as Dan Pearl, they killed that mofo and was nothing torturous about it. They just strait up killed that guy and im glad the guy that did it is in Gitmo.

coolchange

11-10-2007, 12:19 PM

Hell I go thru more torture than that trying to get up behind my buddies Day cruiser.

Schiada76

11-10-2007, 01:41 PM

It is torture. the US prosecuted the japanese for it after WW2. Its against the geneva convention, of which we signed and have thrown in alot of peopls faces since we signed it until recently.
Morally i understand the military has to do what it needs to do and agree if it saves lives then the red is positive and the black is negative. My concerns are?
People have died from this so are you sure you got the right dude before you potentially kill him?
To make you stop people will admit to anything as long as you stop. I can make you confess to killing JFK as long as there are no rules. (reference red is positive and black negative from above).
Lastly we as a country bitch and moan about our boys when they are tortured so how can we look at this and say it is not?
As far as it not having lasting affects, if you dont consider PTSD a long lasting affect i have a few vets from Nam to introduce you too and a few rangers from Gulf war one you can talk to as well.
As far as Dan Pearl, they killed that mofo and was nothing torturous about it. They just strait up killed that guy and im glad the guy that did it is in Gitmo.
You, are completely full of shit.
Scumbag liberal bitch:mad:

Daytona19

11-10-2007, 05:16 PM

Why dont we ask John Macain what is tourture, I bet he has an answer.

redneckcharlie

11-10-2007, 05:46 PM

It is torture. the US prosecuted the japanese for it after WW2. Its against the geneva convention, of which we signed and have thrown in alot of peopls faces since we signed it until recently.
Morally i understand the military has to do what it needs to do and agree if it saves lives then the red is positive and the black is negative. My concerns are?
People have died from this so are you sure you got the right dude before you potentially kill him?
To make you stop people will admit to anything as long as you stop. I can make you confess to killing JFK as long as there are no rules. (reference red is positive and black negative from above).
Lastly we as a country bitch and moan about our boys when they are tortured so how can we look at this and say it is not?
As far as it not having lasting affects, if you dont consider PTSD a long lasting affect i have a few vets from Nam to introduce you too and a few rangers from Gulf war one you can talk to as well.
As far as Dan Pearl, they killed that mofo and was nothing torturous about it. They just strait up killed that guy and im glad the guy that did it is in Gitmo.
Can anybody tell me one time that taking the moral high ground has benefited the USA? :devil:

Sleeper CP

11-10-2007, 05:58 PM

As far as Dan Pearl, they killed that mofo and was nothing torturous about it. They just strait up killed that guy and im glad the guy that did it is in Gitmo.
I'm not. I wish they would have put a bullet in his head. Or better yet, thrown his ass off the top of a 10 story building like Sadams people use to do.
Yes that would have been just fine with me.
Why dont we ask John Macain what is tourture, I bet he has an answer.
He does, and you probably know what it is already. Since he has been through it he is very senceitive to the subject. And he basically thinks any type of deprevation is torture. I think he can't see the forest for the tree's on the subject.
Those of you that think it is torture, if there was a simple shot that you could give someone as a truth drug of sorts ; would it be torture to force the shot on someone ? What if they didn't want to be stuck with a needle? It could be considered torute, couldn't it:idea:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

thatguy

11-10-2007, 06:11 PM

I think it is important to remember that the techniques used by our people are used in the general attempt to extract information to prevent harm to our soldiers and citizens.
Overall, the techniques used by our enemy is purely for terror, on predominantly inocent people with no regard for information.
I have seen 2 video's of oilfield workers getting their heads "sawed" off with a butcher knife while screaming in horror. These men had nothing to offer the enemy except suffering a nightmarish death.
Those people in the waterboarding video are absolute dipshits to even think it comes close to torture. I find it offensive to even consider it as torture compared to what has been done to our people.
Tommy

Jbb

11-10-2007, 06:11 PM

You, are completely full of shit.
Scumbag liberal bitch:mad:
:D :D :D
Post of the month!...
lol..

Boatcop

11-10-2007, 06:16 PM

It is torture. the US prosecuted the japanese for it after WW2. Its against the geneva convention, of which we signed and have thrown in alot of peopls faces since we signed it until recently.
The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. Read On.....
Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. NOPE
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; NOPE
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; NOPE
(c) That of carrying arms openly; NOPE
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. NOPE
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. NOPE
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model. NOPE
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law. NOPE6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. NOPE
While WE treat enemy prisoners as proscribed by the Geneva Convention, those we are at war with do not. They torture (in the true sense of the word), maim, kill and parade those who they capture. While our Government doesn't do those things to our current enemy, they deserve the same treatment. Nothing more. Nothing less.

ULTRA26 # 1

11-10-2007, 07:05 PM

Can anybody tell me one time that taking the moral high ground has benefited the USA? :devil:
To a degree, the USA has always stood on moral high ground. It is one of the things that makes this Country great. Hopefully we will continue to stand tall.

Nicked prop

11-10-2007, 08:41 PM

To a degree, the USA has always stood on moral high ground. It is one of the things that makes this Country great. Hopefully we will continue to stand tall.
"To a degree" is a great qualifying phrase. If one considers firebombing civilians in Dresden and Tokyo and the eventual dropping of two atomic bombs on largely civilian populations an acceptable means to an end, waterboarding seems child's play by comparison. My hope is that the USA will have the conviction to stand as tall as it did in WWII and do whatever it takes to win this war. Sadly, I don't see that happening.

Sleeper CP

11-10-2007, 08:57 PM

Has anyone mentioned that maybe they(the really bad ones) should be waterboarded with water imported from the shallows of Havasu. It might have the amoeba in it.:idea:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

AZJD

11-10-2007, 09:16 PM

We could always just cut their heads off!:rolleyes:

H2OT TIMES

11-10-2007, 10:29 PM

It seems to me the only reasonable response to an enemy that wants to die is to accomodate him.
If possible do so after extracting all pertinent information by whatever means. These are terrorists not POW's.

hoolign

11-10-2007, 10:42 PM

talkinghead

11-10-2007, 11:06 PM

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 01:38 AM

Lets get this straight, out in the open, so you all understand. These guys are animals. Period. Animals. They have no rights, no dignaty, no honor, they are scum of the earth, worthless human garbage. To give them ANY good treatment, is a total waste of time and energy. Waterboarding?? Are you shitting me?? You think they would waterboard you?? You think Al Jazeera cares if you are being inconvenienced?? Get your heads out of your asses, everyone. These guys make the Japs, who BUTCHERED the Chinese prior to WW2, and the Germans, who wrote untold volumes of knowledge on torture, look like amatuers. They need to be butchered, and buried in a pool of hogs blood, with a pig carcass as a casket mate....Teddy Roosevelt did it..and it stopped them then...why not use thier own sick, twisted religioun against them?? Bury them with a pig, they are going to hell...
In the meantime, quit griping about how we do things...it's liberals that fock this country up to the point of no return...and now we have to consider Hillary?? FOCK THAT..:mad:

jbone

11-11-2007, 05:01 AM

Like Boatcop said.
Other than some tears, this guy was fine! NOT torture.
I believe torture leaves lasting physical or psychological damage. Severed limbs, burns, electrocution, breaking bones, etc.
The last publicized used of this technique lasted 90 seconds and the guy spilled his guts. That was after months of silence. Sure he may have given up false info too, but he accurately identified dozens of terrorists and plots to kill innocent people.
My .02
J

pumpercaptain

11-11-2007, 07:04 AM

OUTSTANDING comments Boatsnblondes!

delemorte

11-11-2007, 07:30 AM

You, are completely full of shit.
Scumbag liberal bitch:mad:
And what part am i completly full of shit, please share? and whats up with the name calling?
Are you 5 or somthing or are you so ill informed you cant put together a compitent argument.

delemorte

11-11-2007, 07:33 AM

The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. Read On.....
Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. NOPE
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; NOPE
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; NOPE
(c) That of carrying arms openly; NOPE
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. NOPE
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. NOPE
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model. NOPE
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law. NOPE6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. NOPE
While WE treat enemy prisoners as proscribed by the Geneva Convention, those we are at war with do not. They torture (in the true sense of the word), maim, kill and parade those who they capture. While our Government doesn't do those things to our current enemy, they deserve the same treatment. Nothing more. Nothing less.
So what your saying is that we dont torture our enemies but it is ok to torture as long as we classify them properly?

Sleeper CP

11-11-2007, 08:41 AM

I am somewhat amazed (and yet I'm not) by the number of comments in this thread that go on a rant about why we torture, why this, why that...generally from the soapbox.
That is your right, but the question simply asked is water boarding torture.
If someone responds in the affirmative, that does not necessarily reflect ones opinion on the use or application of such techniques one way or another - unless that is stated as well.
AGAIN, THE QUESTION WAS: Is Water boarding Torture? Not, should Water boarding be employed as an interrogation technique.
Well maybe you should be waterboarded for your rant.:idea: Where's Froggy;)
Lets get this straight, out in the open, so you all understand. These guys are animals. Period. Animals. They have no rights, no dignaty, no honor, they are scum of the earth, worthless human garbage. To give them ANY good treatment, is a total waste of time and energy. Waterboarding?? Are you shitting me?? You think they would waterboard you?? You think Al Jazeera cares if you are being inconvenienced?? Get your heads out of your asses, everyone. These guys make the Japs, who BUTCHERED the Chinese prior to WW2, and the Germans, who wrote untold volumes of knowledge on torture, look like amatuers. They need to be butchered, and buried in a pool of hogs blood, with a pig carcass as a casket mate....Teddy Roosevelt did it..and it stopped them then...why not use thier own sick, twisted religioun against them?? Bury them with a pig, they are going to hell...
:
:D Yeah what he said :)
Holy crap hell must be freezing over this morning:) Word for word I agree with BNB what's the world comming to.:confused:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 09:12 AM

And what part am i completly full of shit, please share? and whats up with the name calling?
Are you 5 or somthing or are you so ill informed you cant put together a compitent argument.
Face it, you bring out the best in people...unless your in room full of worthless liberals....:mad:

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 09:12 AM

Well maybe you should be waterboarded for your rant.:idea: Where's Froggy;)
:D Yeah what he said :)
Holy crap hell must be freezing over this morning:) Word for word I agree with BNB what's the world comming to.:confused:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
Really, whats up with this????:jawdrop:

Kachina26

11-11-2007, 09:21 AM

snip
Are you 5 or somthing or are you so ill informed you cant put together a compitent argument.
Ya mean like the following one????????????????
OUTSTANDING comments Boatsnblondes!
BTW, it's something and competent. When you call someone a 5 year old or incompetent, spell the words right. ;)

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 09:23 AM

Ya mean like the following one????????????????
BTW, it's something and competent. When you call someone a 5 year old or incompetent, spell the words right. ;)
It does tend to help, around here especially, if you insult people using correct grammer...otherwise, the spelling nazi will get you...she knows who she is...

WUTWZAT

11-11-2007, 09:27 AM

Whatever it takes to get what we need is what I say.
I hear they are going to make enemy combatents becomes mods on hear and make them listen to members piss and moan about petty stuff, now thats torture. :D
Waterboarding, electros to the testicles, someone somewhere pays extra for that. :jawdrop:

Boatcop

11-11-2007, 09:30 AM

So what your saying is that we dont torture our enemies but it is ok to torture as long as we classify them properly?
No. We do not torture our enemies.
You are the one who brought up the Geneva Convention in regards to terrorists. I was just pointing out that they are not subject to the terms of the Geneva Convention. We treat them properly out of humanity. Not out of a law that THEY do not recognize nor follow, but for some reason we are expected to.

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 09:33 AM

WUTWZAT

11-11-2007, 09:57 AM

Schiada76

11-11-2007, 09:59 AM

Kachina26

11-11-2007, 10:00 AM

It does tend to help, around here especially, if you insult people using correct grammer...otherwise, the spelling nazi will get you...she knows who she is...
grammar:devil:

Schiada76

11-11-2007, 10:00 AM

:D :D :D
Post of the month!...
lol..
I try to do my part.:D :D

thatguy

11-11-2007, 10:46 AM

B&B,
We are exactly on the same page. Amazing!
Tommy

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 10:50 AM

B&B,
We are exactly on the same page. Amazing!
Tommy
Wow!!!! 2 for 2??? What the fock??? Thats the most people that have ever agreed with me since I joined the site!!!! Remember this day.....:D

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 11:00 AM

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 11:15 AM

This is what they have coming to them...run, you curr....run, and tell them hell is coming with us....HELL IS COMING WITH US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1194588607/Insurgent_Gets_Blown_to_Shit_After_Planting_an_IED
Wow, listen to me!!! That was some damned good coffee.......LOL....:D :D :devil:
OR, to nearly quote our good friend Bilgie...
"Please allow myself to......quote.....myself......."

Froggystyle

11-11-2007, 11:17 AM

I am not going to get on a soapbox on this one, but I will share a couple little pearls with all of you on my way out of this thread...
People are fighting this war every day. Both sides. They all believe in what they are doing, and they believe they are making a change for the better. Both sides. It is a war of a difference of opinion, and it has polarized two cultures on opposite sides of the world to hate each other.
That said, someone has to kick in the doors. Those are my friends doing that. They are kicking in the doors on houses where intel has led them (most likely HUMINT or "human intel") and trying to find weapons, bombs, documents or more likely than anything else... another story to work from and go kicking some more doors.
We signed up for door kicking, tango shooting and hostage saving. We signed up for direct action raids, and we signed up for covert intelligence gathering missions and sneak and peaks.
We didn't sign up and go through all of that training to torture people.
Can anybody tell me one time that taking the moral high ground has benefited the USA? :devil:
Every time we walk outside with our heads held high.
We choose the moral high ground because the guy that is being expected to sweat information out of the enemy could be the same guy two years later that you are going to go buy a boat from. We are Americans, first and foremost. If you heard the stories I have heard from seriously bad ass men about having to sweat someone and then leaving the room to throw up, you would be amazed. We aren't wired to be psychopaths. We are warriors, and warriors don't connect red to positive and black to negative. There is a monster, huge, vast, enormous gulf of difference between getting into a running gun battle to escape indian country to save your life, or attacking a superior enemy force to rescue someone etc... and using physical torture to gain intel.
Americans are not cut out for torturing people. Most of us anyway. All of my friends for sure.
Anyone who says "kill them all" or "turn the place into a glass parking lot" or any of the other bullshit diatribes I have heard spewed forth from this forum or myriad other gatherings of Americans has likely never been in a position to hold a soflam laser on a target waiting for a Hellfire to arrive. Or sat with people in crosshairs waiting for the initiation shot of your direct action.
"Kill 'em all" is not really what is going through your head.
I never saw combat. I was retired just before this all started and got in too late for the first one. I am not speaking from personal experience. But my brothers in my platoon have clearly relayed the message to me that while the first couple days of action were amazing, and seeing the impact of our training on the enemy was profound... the psychological toll paid doing dirty deeds weighed quickly and heavily on all of my friends. Today they are SEALs, but yesterday and perhaps tomorrow they are the guys partying next to you at the sandbar, or surfing in the lineup with you, drinking beer at PB Bar and Grill or working back home at a car dealership or something.
Try to remember that someone has to actually push the button. Let's hope those guys are not psychopaths.

Sleeper CP

11-11-2007, 11:29 AM

We signed up for door kicking, tango shooting and hostage saving. We signed up for direct action raids, and we signed up for covert intelligence gathering missions and sneak and peaks.
We didn't sign up and go through all of that training to torture people.
But my brothers in my platoon have clearly relayed the message to me that while the first couple days of action were amazing, and seeing the impact of our training on the enemy was profound... the psychological toll paid doing dirty deeds weighed quickly and heavily on all of my friends. Today they are SEALs, but yesterday and perhaps tomorrow they are the guys partying next to you at the sandbar, or surfing in the lineup with you, drinking beer at PB Bar and Grill or working back home at a car dealership or something.
Try to remember that someone has to actually push the button. Let's hope those guys are not psychopaths.
Well said. :D I don't know how or when this will end, I can only pray that it does soon, but something tell's me this will be going on for years.
BTW Froggy, Happy Veterans Day, and thank you for your service, I truely appreciate it. Thank you:)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

Schiada76

11-11-2007, 11:33 AM

I am not going to get on a soapbox on this one, but I will share a couple little pearls with all of you on my way out of this thread...
People are fighting this war every day. Both sides. They all believe in what they are doing, and they believe they are making a change for the better. Both sides. It is a war of a difference of opinion, and it has polarized two cultures on opposite sides of the world to hate each other.
That said, someone has to kick in the doors. Those are my friends doing that. They are kicking in the doors on houses where intel has led them (most likely HUMINT or "human intel") and trying to find weapons, bombs, documents or more likely than anything else... another story to work from and go kicking some more doors.
We signed up for door kicking, tango shooting and hostage saving. We signed up for direct action raids, and we signed up for covert intelligence gathering missions and sneak and peaks.
We didn't sign up and go through all of that training to torture people.
Every time we walk outside with our heads held high.
We choose the moral high ground because the guy that is being expected to sweat information out of the enemy could be the same guy two years later that you are going to go buy a boat from. We are Americans, first and foremost. If you heard the stories I have heard from seriously bad ass men about having to sweat someone and then leaving the room to throw up, you would be amazed. We aren't wired to be psychopaths. We are warriors, and warriors don't connect red to positive and black to negative. There is a monster, huge, vast, enormous gulf of difference between getting into a running gun battle to escape indian country to save your life, or attacking a superior enemy force to rescue someone etc... and using physical torture to gain intel.
Americans are not cut out for torturing people. Most of us anyway. All of my friends for sure.
Anyone who says "kill them all" or "turn the place into a glass parking lot" or any of the other bullshit diatribes I have heard spewed forth from this forum or myriad other gatherings of Americans has likely never been in a position to hold a soflam laser on a target waiting for a Hellfire to arrive. Or sat with people in crosshairs waiting for the initiation shot of your direct action.
"Kill 'em all" is not really what is going through your head.
I never saw combat. I was retired just before this all started and got in too late for the first one. I am not speaking from personal experience. But my brothers in my platoon have clearly relayed the message to me that while the first couple days of action were amazing, and seeing the impact of our training on the enemy was profound... the psychological toll paid doing dirty deeds weighed quickly and heavily on all of my friends. Today they are SEALs, but yesterday and perhaps tomorrow they are the guys partying next to you at the sandbar, or surfing in the lineup with you, drinking beer at PB Bar and Grill or working back home at a car dealership or something.
Try to remember that someone has to actually push the button. Let's hope those guys are not psychopaths.
Tell your team mates thank you for being the men that do kick those doors, that will live a hole for two weeks to paint a target, that will sacrifice their very lives so we can enjoy ours safely.
Lets all not forget what tomorrow is.

boatsnblondes

11-11-2007, 11:33 AM

I am not going to get on a soapbox on this one, but I will share a couple little pearls with all of you on my way out of this thread...
People are fighting this war every day. Both sides. They all believe in what they are doing, and they believe they are making a change for the better. Both sides. It is a war of a difference of opinion, and it has polarized two cultures on opposite sides of the world to hate each other.
That said, someone has to kick in the doors. Those are my friends doing that. They are kicking in the doors on houses where intel has led them (most likely HUMINT or "human intel") and trying to find weapons, bombs, documents or more likely than anything else... another story to work from and go kicking some more doors.
We signed up for door kicking, tango shooting and hostage saving. We signed up for direct action raids, and we signed up for covert intelligence gathering missions and sneak and peaks.
We didn't sign up and go through all of that training to torture people.
Every time we walk outside with our heads held high.
We choose the moral high ground because the guy that is being expected to sweat information out of the enemy could be the same guy two years later that you are going to go buy a boat from. We are Americans, first and foremost. If you heard the stories I have heard from seriously bad ass men about having to sweat someone and then leaving the room to throw up, you would be amazed. We aren't wired to be psychopaths. We are warriors, and warriors don't connect red to positive and black to negative. There is a monster, huge, vast, enormous gulf of difference between getting into a running gun battle to escape indian country to save your life, or attacking a superior enemy force to rescue someone etc... and using physical torture to gain intel.
Americans are not cut out for torturing people. Most of us anyway. All of my friends for sure.
Anyone who says "kill them all" or "turn the place into a glass parking lot" or any of the other bullshit diatribes I have heard spewed forth from this forum or myriad other gatherings of Americans has likely never been in a position to hold a soflam laser on a target waiting for a Hellfire to arrive. Or sat with people in crosshairs waiting for the initiation shot of your direct action.
"Kill 'em all" is not really what is going through your head.
I never saw combat. I was retired just before this all started and got in too late for the first one. I am not speaking from personal experience. But my brothers in my platoon have clearly relayed the message to me that while the first couple days of action were amazing, and seeing the impact of our training on the enemy was profound... the psychological toll paid doing dirty deeds weighed quickly and heavily on all of my friends. Today they are SEALs, but yesterday and perhaps tomorrow they are the guys partying next to you at the sandbar, or surfing in the lineup with you, drinking beer at PB Bar and Grill or working back home at a car dealership or something.
Try to remember that someone has to actually push the button. Let's hope those guys are not psychopaths.
Well said, but, remember what our buddy George Patton said....
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
It's a dirty business bro, but we didn't start it....my best to your friends....BnB
And by the way Froggy, happy Veterans day to you, for all you do/did, I tip my hat....best to you...
One thing though froggy...at what point do we strip them of that humanity? At what point do we recognize them for what they truly are? God forbid they should capture your bro's over there, I don't think you have any misconceptions of the ramifications of being caught by them. The Germans, who were just as brutal, fought with more honor than these guys...at some point, we will have to get in the mud with them...strip them of any semblance of humanity, and dispose of them as the dogs they are....while I understand your buddies being sickened by the sight of it all, I fear the worst is yet to come....and it will get much worse, before it gets better...

ULTRA26 # 1

11-11-2007, 01:12 PM

I am not going to get on a soapbox on this one, but I will share a couple little pearls with all of you on my way out of this thread...
People are fighting this war every day. Both sides. They all believe in what they are doing, and they believe they are making a change for the better. Both sides. It is a war of a difference of opinion, and it has polarized two cultures on opposite sides of the world to hate each other.
That said, someone has to kick in the doors. Those are my friends doing that. They are kicking in the doors on houses where intel has led them (most likely HUMINT or "human intel") and trying to find weapons, bombs, documents or more likely than anything else... another story to work from and go kicking some more doors.
We signed up for door kicking, tango shooting and hostage saving. We signed up for direct action raids, and we signed up for covert intelligence gathering missions and sneak and peaks.
We didn't sign up and go through all of that training to torture people.
Every time we walk outside with our heads held high.
We choose the moral high ground because the guy that is being expected to sweat information out of the enemy could be the same guy two years later that you are going to go buy a boat from. We are Americans, first and foremost. If you heard the stories I have heard from seriously bad ass men about having to sweat someone and then leaving the room to throw up, you would be amazed. We aren't wired to be psychopaths. We are warriors, and warriors don't connect red to positive and black to negative. There is a monster, huge, vast, enormous gulf of difference between getting into a running gun battle to escape indian country to save your life, or attacking a superior enemy force to rescue someone etc... and using physical torture to gain intel.
Americans are not cut out for torturing people. Most of us anyway. All of my friends for sure.
Anyone who says "kill them all" or "turn the place into a glass parking lot" or any of the other bullshit diatribes I have heard spewed forth from this forum or myriad other gatherings of Americans has likely never been in a position to hold a soflam laser on a target waiting for a Hellfire to arrive. Or sat with people in crosshairs waiting for the initiation shot of your direct action.
"Kill 'em all" is not really what is going through your head.
I never saw combat. I was retired just before this all started and got in too late for the first one. I am not speaking from personal experience. But my brothers in my platoon have clearly relayed the message to me that while the first couple days of action were amazing, and seeing the impact of our training on the enemy was profound... the psychological toll paid doing dirty deeds weighed quickly and heavily on all of my friends. Today they are SEALs, but yesterday and perhaps tomorrow they are the guys partying next to you at the sandbar, or surfing in the lineup with you, drinking beer at PB Bar and Grill or working back home at a car dealership or something.
Try to remember that someone has to actually push the button. Let's hope those guys are not psychopaths.
Wes, it's nice to know that there are people like you still around.
Very well said.

ULTRA26 # 1

11-11-2007, 01:37 PM

But we should use torture
We do not seek retribution from them, only a reckoning...and that is still coming..we're not done yet....:mad:
No we should not!
Lets get this straight, out in the open, so you all understand. These guys are animals. Period. Animals. They have no rights, no dignaty, no honor, they are scum of the earth, worthless human garbage. To give them ANY good treatment, is a total waste of time and energy. Waterboarding?? Are you shitting me?? You think they would waterboard you?? You think Al Jazeera cares if you are being inconvenienced?? Get your heads out of your asses, everyone. These guys make the Japs, who BUTCHERED the Chinese prior to WW2, and the Germans, who wrote untold volumes of knowledge on torture, look like amatuers. They need to be butchered, and buried in a pool of hogs blood, with a pig carcass as a casket mate....Teddy Roosevelt did it..and it stopped them then...why not use thier own sick, twisted religioun against them?? Bury them with a pig, they are going to hell...
In the meantime, quit griping about how we do things...it's liberals that fock this country up to the point of no return...and now we have to consider Hillary?? FOCK THAT..:mad:
BnB, you have made some very bold and broad comments. While some of the terrorist types are lowest form of life, there are those we are fighting in Iraq, that do not fall into this catogory. All Mullims extremists do not deserve to have their fingers cut off one by one or to be buried with a pig.
Seems like most of the folks here agree with you potrayal of these animals.
Who are the poeple that desrve who be buried with a pig and are going to hell. Do you think you could pick these folks out in a lineup? Are they Iraqi? Are they Iranians? Are they Russians? or are they crazies similar to Timothy McVey.
And you suggest that everyone else has their head up their ass but you.
why not use thier own sick, twisted religioun against them?? Bury them with a pig, they are going to hell...
Spoken not like a true Christian
Well said, but, remember what our buddy George Patton said....
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
It's a dirty business bro, but we didn't start it....my best to your friends....BnB
And by the way Froggy, happy Veterans day to you, for all you do/did, I tip my hat....best to you...
One thing though froggy...at what point do we strip them of that humanity? At what point do we recognize them for what they truly are? God forbid they should capture your bro's over there, I don't think you have any misconceptions of the ramifications of being caught by them. The Germans, who were just as brutal, fought with more honor than these guys...at some point, we will have to get in the mud with them...strip them of any semblance of humanity, and dispose of them as the dogs they are....while I understand your buddies being sickened by the sight of it all, I fear the worst is yet to come....and it will get much worse, before it gets better...
Not all that have died in Iraq or Afghanistan, have not been put through anything like what you describe. While there have been a few, this is not the norm.
I think you come accross more crazy and lower than those we are at war with. Is this what the Christian relgion teaches you BnB
Sorry for getting off topic

delemorte

11-11-2007, 07:37 PM

No. We do not torture our enemies.
You are the one who brought up the Geneva Convention in regards to terrorists. I was just pointing out that they are not subject to the terms of the Geneva Convention. We treat them properly out of humanity. Not out of a law that THEY do not recognize nor follow, but for some reason we are expected to.
I understand that the geneva convention does not give any rights to enemy combatants or what ever. and i never said not to torture. if you read my statement i never said torture was wrong.
I simply put out a few questions that we as a civilized nation should ask our selves. re-read my original post. With out the rule of law that governs us as a country we are no better than them. However I do have the moral flexability to look away at torture as long as there are certain criteria met (re-read my OP)
BTW this is a friggin message board.. who gives a rats ass about spelling. if i gave two cents worth i would spell check the bastard but i dont so what the **** ever. come back with a valid counter point or stop calling names or is that all you can do. Boat cop at least had a valid counter point and made him self sound compitent unlike some of the name calling 5 year olds on this thing.

delemorte

11-11-2007, 07:38 PM

Google human vivisection you silly little girl. The Japanese were prosectued for real war crimes not waterboarding, no matter what it says on your little lefitist I hate America blogs.
You don't have any idea what the Japanese did in WWII do you?:rolleyes:
In 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor
US GI's courtmartialed for waterboarding.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html
and considering my grandfather was a Japanese POW then yes i am fully aware of what they did to him. So F*** You very much
Also I agree Froggystyle's post was excellent and I don’t take anything from the boys and girls in uniform willing to kick down the door and stand up for my freedom. And yes immediate human Intel can save lives. But it’s the innocent civilian that honestly does not know anything that gets caught up in this that I am concerned with. As a human being I can’t sit back and look away at that. If you take up arms against my country men then IMHO you took your own life in your own hands and rolled the dice then came up short. I have no sympathy for them but it’s the innocents that I think about. And if you say there are no innocents then there is no reason for us to be there and you should support full withdraw.

BajaMike

11-11-2007, 08:18 PM

Better than huffing poop:jawdrop: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLfRCkZuxQ)
I support water-boarding all the liberals in this video, and all terrorists, as needed.........:eek:

Fast Freddy

11-11-2007, 08:30 PM

grammar:devil:
owned......

3 daytona`s

11-11-2007, 09:09 PM

3 daytona`s

11-11-2007, 09:24 PM

To a degree, the USA has always stood on moral high ground. It is one of the things that makes this Country great. Hopefully we will continue to stand tall.
If and God forbid your sons or daughters or any relative or friend comes home in a body bag,I beg you not to come in here for sympathy.I can promise will not receive it here,this is a WAR and tired of bleeding hearts and liberals.DO NOT EVER FORGET when you are at the football games etc. and enjoying the "LIFE" someone is over there wondering if he or she is coming home in one piece or even coming home? IMO you two have no clue what this WORLD is about.Our extremely important young man is there fighting a "WAR" he did not ask for a "WAR" that he has rules to obey. I promise you TWO if anything happens to him you will hear first hand from me, the fact that we may be making our enemy uncomfortable and obtain info. by what ever means is fine and there is no torture,after thinking of the heros there and back here in REHAB. Waterboarding is a walk in the park for those savages.:mad:

Froggystyle

11-11-2007, 10:06 PM

If and God forbid your sons or daughters or any relative or friend comes home in a body bag,I beg you not to come in here for sympathy.I can promise will not receive it here,this is a WAR and tired of bleeding hearts and liberals.DO NOT EVER FORGET when you are at the football games etc. and enjoying the "LIFE" someone is over there wondering if he or she is coming home in one piece or even coming home? IMO you two have no clue what this WORLD is about.Our extremely important young man is there fighting a "WAR" he did not ask for a "WAR" that he has rules to obey. I promise you TWO if anything happens to him you will hear first hand from me, the fact that we may be making our enemy uncomfortable and obtain info. by what ever means is fine and there is no torture,after thinking of the heros there and back here in REHAB. Waterboarding is a walk in the park for those savages.:mad:
I don't know of one single SEAL that I used to work with who wants the job of waterboarding anyone. I don't know anyone I would trust with my dog that would want that job.
It is miserable. I had it done to me in SERE training, and the guys doing it were doing it to make you stronger and less afraid of the process. It empowered us, and they didn't get kicks from it. It is by no means torture though... at least in my mind. Neither is sleep deprivation, cold exposure, starvation etc...
I consider torture something that permanently disfigures or physically scars you. Drills through the body, heavy shock sessions, bamboo in fingernails... getting fed your genitals... that sort of thing.
Waterboarding hardly qualifies.
I ask sincerely... who do you want to do the coercing? Name someone in particular that you know... and ask them if they have any interest in doing that for a living.
Any of you want to torture folks for a living, get them to talk?

boatsnblondes

11-12-2007, 01:57 AM

No we should not!
BnB, you have made some very bold and broad comments. While some of the terrorist types are lowest form of life, there are those we are fighting in Iraq, that do not fall into this catogory. All Mullims extremists do not deserve to have their fingers cut off one by one or to be buried with a pig.
Seems like most of the folks here agree with you potrayal of these animals.
Who are the poeple that desrve who be buried with a pig and are going to hell. Do you think you could pick these folks out in a lineup? Are they Iraqi? Are they Iranians? Are they Russians? or are they crazies similar to Timothy McVey.
And you suggest that everyone else has their head up their ass but you.
why not use thier own sick, twisted religioun against them?? Bury them with a pig, they are going to hell...
Spoken not like a true Christian
Not all that have died in Iraq or Afghanistan, have not been put through anything like what you describe. While there have been a few, this is not the norm.
I think you come accross more crazy and lower than those we are at war with. Is this what the Christian relgion teaches you BnB
Sorry for getting off topic
Spoken like a true atheist liberal dirtbag. I think you come across as an anti American, anti war, anti troop yellow coward. Patton would kick your miserable ass from here to eternity and back...he would spit on you, and your like. You a miserable, weak, lame excuse for an American, you and your liberal friends are killing this great country....and again, I have to wonder, is the second American civil war far away?? I have a feeling it will not be about slavery, but about which ideals will govern this nation. Cowards, or Cowboys? Easy choice, saddle up men...

donzi5150

11-12-2007, 09:45 AM

Many of you keep talking about the moral high ground....can protecting the amercan people and way of life be included on the high ground? I am a combat vet and went to survival school and was waterborded and other "fun" methods to break down a person short of physically hurting them as part of the training.....yes it was hell but it was a lot less than what my friends truly experience when thay are caught? Waterboarding is not torture......We have always stood above the rest of the world when it comes to POW's....terrorists are not POW's....they have no rights!
Happy Veterans day to all my fellow military members....Stand proud each and every day!

Froggystyle

11-12-2007, 10:36 AM

Somewhat weird that the two people on here that have been waterboarded don't consider it torture, don'tcha think?

Sleeper CP

11-12-2007, 10:56 AM

Somewhat weird that the two people on here that have been waterboarded don't consider it torture, don'tcha think?
That just makes to much since ;)
Once again, Thank you for your service and Happy Veterans Day:)
Sleeper CP

Racey

11-12-2007, 11:07 AM

I consider torture something that permanently disfigures or physically scars you. Drills through the body, heavy shock sessions, bamboo in fingernails... getting fed your genitals... that sort of thing.
Waterboarding hardly qualifies.
Bingo!
As always froggy, your posts are always spot on.
Thanks for your service, Happy Vets Day

11-12-2007, 11:17 AM

To the vets on here, thanks for your posts, and again thanks for your service.
To the people quoting the Geneva Convention, please read it, you will see the first page states that it applies to soldiers in uniform.
I think most of would be against torture on general principles, but almost all of us would allow a "Jack Bauer" exception, bomb ticking, bad guy knows where it is, etc.........
I see 2 problems:
1. There is no "ombudsman", there is no guy there to say, "Ok stop the torture, this guy doesn't know squat, he's making it up."
2. I'm concerned that some govt. official could come in later and say what happened is illegal, you're going to jail. There is a hold up in the confirmation of the new US Attorney General and this is part of the problem.

Froggystyle

11-12-2007, 11:28 AM

Just an illuminating comment here...
My father was a Naval Aviator, academy grad in '62. Some of his classmates were interred in the Hanoi Hilton and various other Vietnam POW camps spread out over the country. One of them was Mike McGrath.
Here is a little on him... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/honor/gallery/index.html
He bailed out of his plane over Vietnam after a reconnaissance mission went awry. Waterboarding was probably the reward you got if you were good and ate all your feces that week. He had his shoulders dislocated for him, his elbows tied behind his back with a winch-like device that would do the aforementioned dislocation very slowly. I don't recall the exact details... I have met him several times at Dad's reunions... but I think the story went that the good news was, after it had been dislocated ten times or so it didn't hurt anywhere near as badly as the first bunch of times... it popped right out.
He showed up in Hanoi with a fractured left arm, two fractured vertebrae from the ejection and subsequent beatings and a fractured left knee. No medical attention. He then got his right shoulder and right elbow dislocated for him.
Life in the camp was a single long challenge. They would often have to wear shackles on their wrists or legs, and would get them off twice a day to eat, but would often be worn for weeks. If you need to take a dump or pee... try to do it while your cuffs are off, otherwise you get to stew in your own juices...
Stress positions for days, no sleep, no rest, chained to a stool. One guy went over a month without breaking.
This picture is where they would tie your elbows together behind your back very tightly and then lever them upwards...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/honor/gallery/images/78.jpg
And he lived...
That isn't getting your head cut off and killed, or getting beaten to death. I would think that almost any death would beat six years of brutal abuse at the hands of an enemy uninterested in what the Geneva convention has to say.
I think that part of why I became a SEAL was that I was well aware of the hostage rescue aspect of being a Team guy... and would have loved to have participated in the liberation of a POW camp.
That is what I consider torture. Never right again. Mentally, physically, emotionally...

ULTRA26 # 1

11-12-2007, 11:48 AM

This is what they have coming to them...run, you curr....run, and tell them hell is coming with us....HELL IS COMING WITH US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
Spoken like a true atheist liberal dirtbag. I think you come across as an anti American, anti war, anti troop yellow coward. Patton would kick your miserable ass from here to eternity and back...he would spit on you, and your like. You a miserable, weak, lame excuse for an American, you and your liberal friends are killing this great country....and again, I have to wonder, is the second American civil war far away?? I have a feeling it will not be about slavery, but about which ideals will govern this nation. Cowards, or Cowboys? Easy choice, saddle up men...
BnB, proof positive that the world is full of crazed religious hypocrites. FYI, I am far from an atheist, and I am far from being anti-American. As I have said, I have total disdain for anyone who spews hatred behind the shield of the Christan faith. A Civil War for differing political views???? You are even more insane than I thought.
How about you get up to speed, and quit living in the past.
Patton was an intelligent man. He and I would have probabally gotton along just fine.
As I have said, I have total disdain for anyone who spews hatred behind the shield of the Christan faith.
__________________________________________________ ___
HAPPY VETERAN'S DAY TO ALL AND THANK YOU

Schiada76

11-12-2007, 11:54 AM

Somewhat weird that the two people on here that have been waterboarded don't consider it torture, don'tcha think?
That's not what Code Pink says!:jawdrop: :rolleyes:

11-12-2007, 11:57 AM

"My father was a Naval Aviator, academy grad in '62. Some of his classmates were interred in the Hanoi Hilton and various other Vietnam POW camps spread out over the country. One of them was Mike McGrath.
Here is a little on him... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/honor/gallery/index.html "
The US can never repay him for that sacrifice.
Obviously that POW didn't have any information, the NVA just did that for fun.
We are better than that. At least we'd like to think so.
On a tangent, a lot of US foreign policy is based on the idea that we are the good guys, they are the bad guys. Whether this is sound policy or merely foolhardy, it puts a lot of pressure on us to be better, even perfect. When I say us, I mean everyone from the Prez, to the new recruit who would rather be someplace else, to the contractors.
The reasoning can be circuitous, we are right, because we are right, therefore we are right.
On a philosophical level, it can put us in a bind. Should we invade if we don't have the stones to shoot the looters? Does being better then they are mean we should NOT invade, or SHOULD invade to liberate people? If we invade, when can we stop SPENDING (PISSING AWAY) so much money on the country we "freed".
If I had a great new weapon right now, should I hand it over to the US, or just keep it quiet knowing that its power might used or abused?

ULTRA26 # 1

11-12-2007, 11:58 AM

That's not what Code Pink says!:jawdrop: :rolleyes:
Seems that those who have experienced it should know.

donzi5150

11-12-2007, 12:42 PM

Seems that those who have experienced it should know.
Thank you Ultra, we agree on some things....I had a fire hose full of water ( obviously not full pressure but volume) shoved in my face while tied to a board at about a 35 degree incline head down.....it was very uncomfortable......my sister squadron was the 160th Task Force....of Somalia Fame......Ask anyone who has been through it if we are on the Higher Moral Ground......Durant had a broken back and was still beaten and shot while in captivity and under the Geneva Convention he was in uniform......Our solders and my brothers always get the worst end of it and we (US) do the right thing even though it can be tough......(except for a slim few) but pictures of some Muslim terrorists posing for some stupid pictures and some cold fresh clean water to the face is the worst we do.......that is much better than our boys are afforded..........Code Pink and those others can SMD!:mad:

Froggystyle

11-12-2007, 01:02 PM

Thank you Ultra, we agree on some things....I had a fire hose full of water ( obviously not full pressure but volume) shoved in my face while tied to a board at about a 35 degree incline head down.....it was very uncomfortable......my sister squadron was the 160th Task Force....of Somalia Fame......Ask anyone who has been through it if we are on the Higher Moral Ground......Durant had a broken back and was still beaten and shot while in captivity and under the Geneva Convention he was in uniform......Our solders and my brothers always get the worst end of it and we (US) do the right thing even though it can be tough......(except for a slim few) but pictures of some Muslim terrorists posing for some stupid pictures and some cold fresh clean water to the face is the worst we do.......that is much better than our boys are afforded..........Code Pink and those others can SMD!:mad:
Were you attached to TF160 in any way?
Those guys are ninjas. I think they liked working with us because we were as crazy as they were. Hands down the best helo pilots we ever worked with, by a lot. Working MOUT with those guys is really hair-raising. They will just put you down on postage stamp size landing areas to take buildings from the top down.
When they say "GO"... we jumped out. They knew their shit and we trusted them.
Nothing like map of the earth blacked out in a blackhawk to get your heartrate going. Put on nod's and look out the window and you will pretty much throw up.

donzi5150

11-12-2007, 01:18 PM

Were you attached to TF160 in any way?
Those guys are ninjas. I think they liked working with us because we were as crazy as they were. Hands down the best helo pilots we ever worked with, by a lot. Working MOUT with those guys is really hair-raising. They will just put you down on postage stamp size landing areas to take buildings from the top down.
When they say "GO"... we jumped out. They knew their shit and we trusted them.
Nothing like map of the earth blacked out in a blackhawk to get your heartrate going. Put on nod's and look out the window and you will pretty much throw up.
I was in Spec Ops down at Hurlburt Field in FWB........I was a gunner ( mini gun and .50cal and many other hand held weapons devices) on the Blackhawks and we worked closely with the TF for many reasons but mainly becouse we were just as crazy but also to help with the coordination with AF assets within a package........We provided the same service....weapons packages, infil/exfil, search and rescue, etc.......I am sure I worked with a few of your brothers also.....we deliverd and worked with Seal Team 6 alot as well as many other of the elite forces......Nice to hear from you....

11-13-2007, 07:09 AM

The 'Torture' Fraud of the Left
By J.R. Dunn
"Torture" is one of many current topics of significance that have been abandoned to the left. Leftist commentators have been allowed to set the terms, make the definitions, and generally run the argument without much in the way of serious opposition or debate.
No small number of elements of the War on Terror have suffered the same treatment. An offhand list would include profiling, wiretapping, border security, and rendition. All have been hijacked and turned into battering rams to support a particular left-wing interpretation of the War on Terror. The GOP has been unable to respond for a number of reasons: they've been blindsided, have been busy fending off corruption investigations, or simply couldn't or wouldn't defend certain obvious positions. As a result, the left has been able to peddle its version of events with near impunity.
"Torture" is probably the most egregious of these cases. That's the explanation for the sneer quotes. Because, quite simply, in much of the debate over "torture", we're not talking about actual torture at all. We're talking about rough treatment, harshness, or coercion.
The American left has defined these upward until they mean the same thing as torture, all as a part of their efforts to undermine the War on Terror in general. The core of this stance is the assertion that a slap on the head, several days without sleep, or hearing Rage Against the Machine played at full volume is fully the equivalent of torture in the classic sense. (Well... maybe we should reconsider that last....)
Of course, it's no such thing. Torture is easily defined as physical assault carried out over a prolonged period against a victim under complete control and holding the possibility of permanent physical or psychic damage. Official legal terminology contains the proviso that torture consists of acts that "revolt the conscience" We can also add, by way of Dashiell Hammett, that such actions must have "threat of death behind them". If they contain these elements, they are torture. If not, they're something less. Not necessarily something justifiable or commendable, but not torture either. (Another method of judging these actions is to ask whether the activity would excite an individual like Mengele or Yezhov.)
The left has succeeded, through a relentless media campaign (is there any other kind?) in obscuring this distinction. According to the latest criteria, torture is anything unpleasant that occurs to a prisoner while in American custody. (Overseas it's different. It's very, very difficult -- almost impossible, in fact -- for any developing or left-of-center regime to commit torture, no matter what they do to their prisoners. Unless, as in the rendition uproar, the U.S. is somehow involved.)
This campaign had its start with Abu Ghraib. According to the media narrative, the prisoners abused were "tortured". In truth, they suffered no such thing -- they were humiliated, which is something completely different. The backwoods types overseeing them did exactly what backwoods types will do when under inadequate supervision. (The commanding officer, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, was said never to have set foot in the actual prison). This might well have progressed to something resembling actual torture over time, as they grew bored and sought more excitement. But they were discovered before that could happen.
A full-fledged conspiracy theory was worked up insisting that torture was carried out on orders of higher-ups reaching into the Pentagon and even the White House. It's difficult to follow the logic here - why this particular group of prisoners, most of whom were street-corner toughs, would interest these nebulous "higher-ups", and why, once targeted, they were subject to such lame procedures -- the nude pyramid, for instance - when far more effective techniques were easily available. But logic and consistency were beside the point, which was simply to make an impact and move on.
Abu Ghraib changed the public perception of torture. This new understanding was then applied to all levels of terror operations, most notoriously involving Guantanamo Bay. Much of what came out of Gitmo was rumor of the Koran-in-the-toilet variety, and no small amount of that conditioned by the Al-Queda practice of claiming torture under all circumstances when in custody, demonstrating that the Jihadis have a clearer understanding of the media than most members of our own government. The rumors were taken as true under the corollary, if Abu Ghraib, why not Gitmo, and served as the basis for calling for the closure of Camp X-Ray and its successors
Gitmo cemented the torture narrative. Torture became one of the central elements of the War on Terror, something brought up any time the media felt like flogging the U.S. or the Bush administration. The administration itself reacted with bewilderment, conceding most of the argument before it even began, allowing the opposition to set definitions and grounds, operating solely on the defensive. One of the few officials to take the offensive - legal advisor John Yoo, was responding to attacks on the so-called "torture memo", a document outlining the circumstances under which harsh treatment of terrorists would be allowed. No other acting official dared join Yoo.
The most recent uproar concerns waterboarding, a practice that has become a media favorite because it is the only activity approaching torture known to have been carried out under official auspices. Waterboarding has played a large part in Judge Michael Mukasey's bid to become attorney general when he refused to define it as "torture". A number of Democrats, including the party's entire presidential slate, have declined to support Mukasey for this reason.
Waterboarding may be brutal, it may be nasty, it may even be uncalled for. But it's not torture. It does not inflict physical pain or damage. It does not destroy the victim. Its sole purpose is to create a sense of terror by arousing deep instinctive reactions against drowning, instincts shared not only by almost all mammals, but almost all vertebrates who don't happen to be fish. It is effective, it is quick, it leaves no scars and should revolt no one's conscience.
The sole person other than US pilot trainees we know to have been waterboarded is Khalid Sheik Muhhamed. Khalid broke within minutes (the practice involves wrapping the face in towels and then pouring on large quantities of water.) He was waterboarded for one reason alone: he was involved in the 9/11 attack, both preparation and execution, and authorities needed to know if any other such attacks were in store.
Involved in 9/11. What that means, precisely, is that KSM (as he's known in intelligence circles) was partly responsible for the murder of close to 3,000 people. That being the case, it would please me to learn that he was being waterboarded at least once every day of his life, and I'm sure I'm not alone. But what is being overlooked is that Khalid's case matches the one exception to the "no torture" rule almost universally granted by critics, including several of those same Democratic candidates: an emergency where the possibility exists that many lives may be threatened by terrorist action. Such a possibility existed in the case of KSM. As a result he suffered a short, nasty interlude, and the possibility was laid to rest.
The administration missed a serious opportunity with KSM. An opportunity to put him before the cameras, display him to the public, and say, here is your victim. Here is a man who was "tortured". The killer of your friends and neighbors. A dangerous individual. A man who has earned the most terrifying treatment allowed to the law: execution for murder. Here he is - who cares to defend him?
But that, of course, didn't happen, and now we have a reigning myth, one that can be dragged out and shaken in the faces of the public every time the administration, the military, or the intelligence community needs a beating. One that can be used as the basis for films like Rendition. One that will become a historical marker of the War on Terror.
There was a similar myth in Vietnam, one that everyone has heard at one time or another -- the helicopter story. A communist soldier is taken up in a Huey and threatened with being thrown out until he talks. After he does, he's thrown out anyway. The story is commonly featured in movies, "recollections" of the John Kerry type, and war "histories" of a certain slant.
What actually happened was this: two PAVN officers were captured by U.S. troops. They were from a unit supposed to be nowhere in the vicinity, and Army intelligence suspected an upcoming assault. But neither officer would talk. Then someone had a brainstorm: a Vietcong infiltrator had been shot the night before and was awaiting burial. Returning to the interrogation room, they dragged out one of the officers with suitable bellowing and threats. Once out of sight they removed his uniform jacket and cap, put them on the corpse and loaded it aboard a helicopter. With the chopper in the air, they returned for the other officer and hustled him out. Pointing to the Huey, they said, "Now see what happens to your pal."
At that moment, the corpse was thrown out, just far enough away so no details were apparent. It was an impressive drop, with the cap flying off halfway down. The second officer considered his interests and told the GIs exactly what they wanted to know. At which point his jacketless, capless companion was brought out of hiding for a good laugh all around.
Somebody told the story to a reporter a short time later. Knowing a great yarn when he heard one, the reporter wrote it up and sent it in. But an editor at his wire service thought it worked better with the officer actually being thrown to his death. So that's how it was rewritten, and published across the U.S. (Including in the home paper of one of the soldiers mentioned in the story -- the reporter had to be pulled out for his own safety.)
That's how "torture" will be treated in the annals of the War on Terror. Not as a procedure used on a sparing basis against the worst of the worst. Not the final measure of protection against terrorist action. But as a commonplace activity of degenerates and trash among U.S. forces. This impression may well last as long as the helicopter slander, and do a similar amount of harm.
Needless to say, none of the foregoing must be taken as approval of torture or any other kind of brutality. But that's just the point: the left has drawn a vicious cartoon in which every individual involved in fighting the Jihadis from the Oval office on down is being portrayed as the equivalent of the Abu Ghraib guards: halfwit knuckle-draggers capable of going out of control without warning. This can endanger us in any number of ways - encouraging officials to back off when they should bear down, to hesitate when they should strike. As Judge Mukasey stated in his letter answering the Congressional imputations:
"I would not want any statement of mine to provide our enemies with a window into the limits or contours of any interrogation program we may have in place and thereby assist them in training to resist the techniques we actually may use."
It's no news that the Bush Administration has done a horrible job of selling itself and its policies. Bush, being a Texan, evidently believes that accomplishments speak for themselves. But the great world, unfortunately, is not Texas. If you don't create your own narrative, lay down your own version of events, someone else is going to do it for you. And you probably will not like the results.
J.R. Dunn is consulting editor of American Thinker.

Seadog

11-13-2007, 09:56 AM

The problem with this administration is that Rumsfield was an idiot. And Cheney is not too far behind. You have career politicians without solid military experience making military decisions.
People that have strong military backgrounds do not advocate the kill them all, or torture is good perspectives. Our big problem is that we have two different militaries. The grunts are the ones that get down into the combat zones and try to sort out the innocent from the guilty. This is made extremely difficult in the areas we are fighting because ignorance is rampant. It breeds feudalism and small picture thinking. Either from threats or clan loyalty, they will protect our enemies. Instead of protecting their clans, the terrorists use them as shields. Then when one gets wacked by combat, the entire clan goes on Jihad. They have to talk to the clans, work with them, and become friends with them. And sometimes it works. Other times, it is a prelude to an ambush.
The other military is the technical one. They believe in sending machines in to do battle. See an enemy and take out the area surrounding it with a few million dollars worth of technology. No American lives are lost unless the million dollar machine breaks and falls into the enemy territory.
Torture is not going to help our cause in this type of warfare. This is an enemy that has no qualms about sending an agent in to be tortured. His goal is to lure troops into a trap. It could be an ambush, or it could be a target that we are led to believe is full of top level terrorists, but really is a bunch of women and children. Since they have less regard of women than we do livestock, it does not matter to them when innocents get blown up.
We have a need to use psychology on our enemies, but physical torture is not going to really gain us anything. If I get tortured, I will be willing to tell my torturers anything. I don't care if it was true or not. If I talk, then I will probably die, so the more lies, the better. If I live, I can repute it later.
A skillful interogator knows how to get information without torture. You loosen them up and as they get use to talking about things, bits and pieces of information can be gathered until a complete picture can be made. Every prisoner is different, and requires different techniques accordingly.

11-16-2007, 09:32 AM

Spoken like a true atheist liberal dirtbag. I think you come across as an anti American, anti war, anti troop yellow coward. Patton would kick your miserable ass from here to eternity and back...he would spit on you, and your like. You a miserable, weak, lame excuse for an American, you and your liberal friends are killing this great country....
Wow, feel that Christian love!!! I bet Jesus would be proud. You are an inspiration to all Christians!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Somebody needs to start naming BNB's personalities.

Sleeper CP

11-16-2007, 09:40 AM

Wow, feel that Christian love!!! I bet Jesus would be proud. You are an inspiration to all Christians!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Somebody needs to start naming BNB's personalities.
Holy crap, I thought you got eatin by a hippo. :eek: ) Long time no hear from.:(
Hope all is well with you:)
Sleeper CP
Big inch Ford Lover

11-16-2007, 09:51 AM

Holy crap, I thought you got eatin by a hippo. :eek: ) Long time no hear from.:(
Hope all is well with you:)
Sleeper CP
Big inch Ford Lover
It really sucks when work gets in the way of playing on ***boat. :D

boatsntoys

11-16-2007, 03:10 PM

The bomb is going off in 2 hours. We have the guy who admits he knows where it is. If we get to it in time, we can stop it from going off.
Hmmmm, what do we do?
I got it! Lets threaten him with a 3 year trial ,while put up in a cushie jail, after which, we execute him as a martyr and give him eternity with 57 Virgins. Yeah, that will make him talk QUICK!

ULTRA26 # 1

11-16-2007, 07:13 PM