Oil Pan Windage Trays ?

[Squirtin Thunder]

I purchased a Basset 10qt oil pan, same as the Dooley pan for a jetboat. It is the same as the one in the Ford Performance book on page 135. What do you guys think about the flat up curved windage trays ? I was told that the expanded steel type windage trays are 100% better and that this style does more harm than good, what is your take on this type ?
Thanks

[Squirtin Thunder]

Here is a pic,
http://www.dooleyenterprises.com/Oilpans/429460/pan1.jpg

[obierno]

I run blown alchol in a cheyenne 127mph @ 4400 elv with a 14qt dooley and the solid windage tray . NO oil problems but it is the pan, oil pickup and tray as a set. I had a hella time with oil pressure using mixed pans,pickups, and windage trays

[Sleeper CP]

Here is a pic,
http://www.dooleyenterprises.com/Oilpans/429460/pan1.jpg
That is the same pan/windage tray combo that is on the 565" Ford. Have never had an oiling issue and have always had very consistent oil pressure even on 12 mile runs from 4,500 rpm's to 6,000 rpm's over 14 minutes.
I have heard the same thing you have. I do know that there is HP to be found in a oil pan with a kick out and mesh screen, how much, who knows? If I had the extra $$ I'd call Chris Straub and have a new pan made, but that 10 qt. Dooley's has don just fine over 12 yrs. or so.
Sleeper CP
BiG Inch Ford Lover

[cyclone]

I purchased a Basset 10qt oil pan, same as the Dooley pan for a jetboat. It is the same as the one in the Ford Performance book on page 135. What do you guys think about the flat up curved windage trays ? I was told that the expanded steel type windage trays are 100% better and that this style does more harm than good, what is your take on this type ?
Thanks
i've had problems with the dooley pans on chevy's. windage is a problem with that style of tray. oil control at high rpms is an issue.
also, whatever you do, find out what angle your boat runs at, the angle the engine is installed at, then simulate it on the bench with the oil pan. i guarantee that if you put 10 quarts of oil in that pan it will come above the windage tray once the engine is in the boat and the crank will fling that oil all over the place when the engine is running. i wouldnt put more than 7.5 or 8 quarts of oil in that pan with an engine installed at 4-5 degrees (same angle as jet pump).

[BUSBY]

windage is a problem with that style of tray. oil control at high rpms is an issue.
i guarantee that if you put 10 quarts of oil in that pan it will come above the windage tray once the engine is in the boat and the crank will fling that oil all over the place when the engine is running. i wouldnt put more than 7.5 or 8 quarts of oil in that pan with an engine installed at 4-5 degrees (same angle as jet pump).
2 very correct statements ...

[BUSBY]

Get yourself a Dan Olson wet sump pan ... like $450 w/ proper windage tray, custom tig welded aluminum ...
http://www.olsonmotorsports.com/
They should have one on the shelf for BBC ... oh wait, I forgot ... sorry, 3-4 weeks for a BBF :D
j/k ... they might have one on the shelf (if you're lucky) ;)

[Sleeper CP]

i've had problems with the dooley pans on chevy's. windage is a problem with that style of tray. oil control at high rpms is an issue.
also, whatever you do, find out what angle your boat runs at, the angle the engine is installed at, then simulate it on the bench with the oil pan. i guarantee that if you put 10 quarts of oil in that pan it will come above the windage tray once the engine is in the boat and the crank will fling that oil all over the place when the engine is running. i wouldnt put more than 7.5 or 8 quarts of oil in that pan with an engine installed at 4-5 degrees (same angle as jet pump).
Wow high? The 565 rev's to 7,000 on the dyno with no drop in oil pressure. It rev's to 6,800 on the nitrous with no loss in oil pressure and it runs
from Picacho to Fishers landing in 14 minutes that's a 54 mph avg. running from 4,500 to 6,000 rpm's for 14 minutes. Never had a problem with pressure or temp but it does have a cooler on it.
As I said though, today I'd get a Steph's pan with a kick out and screen tray ,but the fact is the current pan has worked just fine.
I do know 3 other people that have had to run 7 or 8 qrts. in their Chevy's with a 10 qrt pan. Our system is with a cooler and filter we run 11 qrts. in it.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[cyclone]

Wow high? The 565 rev's to 7,000 on the dyno with no drop in oil pressure. It rev's to 6,800 on the nitrous with no loss in oil pressure and it runs
from Picacho to Fishers landing in 14 minutes that's a 54 mph avg. running from 4,500 to 6,000 rpm's for 14 minutes. Never had a problem with pressure or temp but it does have a cooler on it.
As I said though, today I'd get a Steph's pan with a kick out and screen tray ,but the fact is the current pan has worked just fine.
I do know 3 other people that have had to run 7 or 8 qrts. in their Chevy's with a 10 qrt pan. Our system is with a cooler and filter we run 11 qrts. in it.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
must be a ford thing. with my chevy's and that pan, right at 6,800 rpm the oil pressure fluctuated 10-20psi....i believe Widowmaker had the same problem with his 502..

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Get yourself a Dan Olson wet sump pan ... like $450 w/ proper windage tray, custom tig welded aluminum ...
http://www.olsonmotorsports.com/
They should have one on the shelf for BBC ... oh wait, I forgot ... sorry, 3-4 weeks for a BBF :D
j/k ... they might have one on the shelf (if you're lucky) ;)
Thats cheap:idea::idea: I may have to call them next week....

[steelcomp]

i've had problems with the dooley pans on chevy's. windage is a problem with that style of tray. oil control at high rpms is an issue.
also, whatever you do, find out what angle your boat runs at, the angle the engine is installed at, then simulate it on the bench with the oil pan. i guarantee that if you put 10 quarts of oil in that pan it will come above the windage tray once the engine is in the boat and the crank will fling that oil all over the place when the engine is running. i wouldnt put more than 7.5 or 8 quarts of oil in that pan with an engine installed at 4-5 degrees (same angle as jet pump).At 6000-7000 rpm how many quarts of oil do you think are actually in the pan?
The flat steel windage trays are a waste of time and power. They reflect more oil back onto the crank than they do protecting it. Picture in your mind the amount of oil coming off the crank at 5000-6000 (or more) rpm and what that looks like being thrown against a steel plate only inches away from the crank. That's a huge drag on the crank, trying to spin in all that oil. Better off leaving it out, and running a quart or two less. You'll do better by lowering the oil level as far away from the crank as you can.
Even with the Dan Olson pan on my BB Chev, there was some excessive oil pressure fluctuation from 6000-7000. We ended up taking a quart out of the pan and that solved the problem, Also freed up measurable HP. Nice thing about a dyno is you can look at a graph of your oil pressure

[Squirtin Thunder]

I am sure glad I did as my friend said. Great info !

[Sleeper CP]

I am sure glad I did as my friend said. Great info !
Which was :confused:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[Squirtin Thunder]

Which was :confused:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
Leaving that Damn Tray out !

[widowmaker]

must be a ford thing. with my chevy's and that pan, right at 6,800 rpm the oil pressure fluctuated 10-20psi....i believe Widowmaker had the same problem with his 502..
Exactly, mine is a canton, basically the same deal, full length box pan, I even got creative and got a special windage screen tray from moroso and spent a lot of time fitting it as close as possible to the crank, but even so on the dyno right at 6400 rpms oil pressure dropped 20psi...... I stopped messing around and went ahead and ordered a custom made pan from Chris Straub. End of story.

[BUSBY]

I stopped messing around and went ahead and ordered a custom made pan from Chris Straub. End of story.
show off :D

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

show off :D
But then again, thats the way Chris Rolls :D

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

I stopped messing around and went ahead and ordered a custom made pan from Chris Straub. End of story.
So what did the new pan do for ya??????

[steve d]

At 6000-7000 rpm how many quarts of oil do you think are actually in the pan?
The flat steel windage trays are a waste of time and power. They reflect more oil back onto the crank than they do protecting it. Picture in your mind the amount of oil coming off the crank at 5000-6000 (or more) rpm and what that looks like being thrown against a steel plate only inches away from the crank. That's a huge drag on the crank, trying to spin in all that oil. Better off leaving it out, and running a quart or two less. You'll do better by lowering the oil level as far away from the crank as you can.
Even with the Dan Olson pan on my BB Chev, there was some excessive oil pressure fluctuation from 6000-7000. We ended up taking a quart out of the pan and that solved the problem, Also freed up measurable HP. Nice thing about a dyno is you can look at a graph of your oil pressure
....Steel, What do yo think the reason was for the oil pressure fluctuation. Possibly foaming? Obviously the pick was always submerged.
I am looking at different oil pumps .......Possibly some correlation?
....steve

[River Rat 005]

I drive a big truck and when the fuel guy puts to much oil in it, the oil pressure will dip below 30# for to long and shut the engine off. When it does this, I drive it slower to keep the pressure up until I can have the excess drained out. The crank foaming the oil causes the problem.
I must have done some thing right on my pan. When I put this engine in my hydro, I made my own pan. I cut off the front part of a stock pan and welded a box on. I put in a baffle with a trap door. The flat windage tray is within 1/16" of the baffle. It holds 8 quarts to the bottom of the tray, but I run 7. I run this thing to 7400 rpm and have had it to 8000 with no pressure loss. On a hard back down the pressure drops to 5 to 10#. I've tallked to guys with manufactured pans that lose this much. I ease out of it and keep the pressure up to 25 to 30#.
Tim

[steelcomp]

....Steel, What do yo think the reason was for the oil pressure fluctuation. Possibly foaming? Obviously the pick was always submerged.
I am looking at different oil pumps .......Possibly some correlation?
....steveNot being able to stick my head in the pan at 7000 rpm, I'd only be guessing. Whatever goes on inside the pan, the closer the oil level is to the crank, the worse it seems to be. I remember reading something Smokey said years ago and that was that if you had more than a quart of oil in your pan at RPM, you had too much oil in the engine. :idea: :idea:
What I do know is thaere are high pressure areas and low pressure areas in the crankcase and oil pan (think of the pan as an extension of the crankcase) and the higher the rpm, the more defined these areas are. Allow enough volume in the pan, and concentrate it on the high pressure side of things (allowing for expansion of that high pressure area) and the presure differentials become less, and the atmosphere in the crankcase is more stable. You also allow the oil being thrown to be drawn into that area, and away from the crank instead of bouncing off the side of the pan and reflecting back on the crank, just like a flat windage tray (parasitic drag). Clearly, if you had a pan 4' deep and 2' wide, there would be little effect on the oil in the bottom of that pan due to crankshaft windage and thrown oil.
AFA oil pumps, then best pump made can't pump oil from a dry pan. I think the pump is seldom the problem unless it's out of spec. It's always important to check the pump's clearances before you use one. They're definately not all the same. Usually, though, the pump is only a victim of a poorly designed pan.

[steve d]

Not being able to stick my head in the pan at 7000 rpm, I'd only be guessing. Whatever goes on inside the pan, the closer the oil level is to the crank, the worse it seems to be. I remember reading something Smokey said years ago and that was that if you had more than a quart of oil in your pan at RPM, you had too much oil in the engine. :idea: :idea:
What I do know is thaere are high pressure areas and low pressure areas in the crankcase and oil pan (think of the pan as an extension of the crankcase) and the higher the rpm, the more defined these areas are. Allow enough volume in the pan, and concentrate it on the high pressure side of things (allowing for expansion of that high pressure area) and the presure differentials become less, and the atmosphere in the crankcase is more stable. You also allow the oil being thrown to be drawn into that area, and away from the crank instead of bouncing off the side of the pan and reflecting back on the crank, just like a flat windage tray (parasitic drag). Clearly, if you had a pan 4' deep and 2' wide, there would be little effect on the oil in the bottom of that pan due to crankshaft windage and thrown oil.
AFA oil pumps, then best pump made can't pump oil from a dry pan. I think the pump is seldom the problem unless it's out of spec. It's always important to check the pump's clearances before you use one. They're definately not all the same. Usually. though, the pump is only a victim of a poorly designed pan.
Thanks Steel.................steve

[BrendellaJet]

When my motor was on the dyno after all runs had been made, engine builder and dyno operator decided to pull a quart out to see what would happen. I think it picked up 12 hp. Not a lot, and not oil pressure problems were present. Motor repeated the # twice, so there was a definite power inprovement.
Pretty sure the oil pan with a kickout(ie Olson) will make about the same increase in power(10-15) over the dooley pan. Thats close to 30 hp net. Not sure what the scraper or windage tray add, but undoubtedly there is power to be found with oil pan selection and the parts that accompany it.

[ol guy]

Windage trays do nothing more than allow the crank to swing with-out plowing thru oil on every revolution. If the motor is running out of oil at extended high rpm runs it would be an oil return problem or baffles in the pan. In drag racing alot of guys will run a 10 or 12 qt pan and drop 2 qts to create cheap mans windage tray. The problem with that is the revolution of the crank creates a suction and brings the oil up and thus slows down the crank speed. This will also cause the oil pump to cavitate. The gates in a large oil pan are designed for rapid decell. Do you slam on the brakes in your'e boat? Bottom line would be windage tray yes, Oil return yes, baffles depend on how you drive your'e boat. If you run out of oil on a long pass you have a oil return problem.M

[steelcomp]

Windage trays do nothing more than allow the crank to swing with-out plowing thru oil on every revolution. If the motor is running out of oil at extended high rpm runs it would be an oil return problem or baffles in the pan. In drag racing alot of guys will run a 10 or 12 qt pan and drop 2 qts to create cheap mans windage tray. The problem with that is the revolution of the crank creates a suction and brings the oil up and thus slows down the crank speed. This will also cause the oil pump to cavitate. The gates in a large oil pan are designed for rapid decell. Do you slam on the brakes in your'e boat? Bottom line would be windage tray yes, Oil return yes, baffles depend on how you drive your'e boat. If you run out of oil on a long pass you have a oil return problem.MHow does a crank "plow through oil" with or without a windage tray?

[Warp Speed]

How does a crank "plow through oil" with or without a windage tray?
Wondering the same thing :confused:
Warp Speed ;)

[River Rat 005]

To much oil in the pan maybe?

[widowmaker]

So what did the new pan do for ya??????
I haven't had a chance to run the motor with the new pan yet. But I have no doubt that it will work flawlessly. It is a really nice piece all aluminum. The motor is gonna be on the squeeze next season so I will check it on the dyno with and without the gas.