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GottaJet
05-18-2002, 02:49 PM
where should my water regulating gate valve be located??its been on the front of my motor(460) for about ten years without problems but i hear this is wrong...thanks GJ

77charger
05-18-2002, 03:35 PM
mine is at where the pump comes in at.As long as you have before the motor there shouldnt be a prob.

propless
05-19-2002, 05:36 AM
Question - I do not have a water regulating valve and I run around 110-120 degrees. Should I consider installing one to get the temperature up (140-150), and does the engine perform better when warmer?
thanks

Wet Dream
05-19-2002, 05:48 AM
YES and yes!!

riodog
05-19-2002, 11:12 AM
Propless, maybe and no.
Sorry to counterdict you Wetdream but,
1. your engine will creat less emissions at a higher temperature (more complete combustion), but I doubt if you would be able to tell the difference in performance.
With your motor running cooler, you have a split second more leeway to shut down the motor if you encounter an over-heating problem. A gate valve only controls volume of water to motor, not pressure, and by restricting (closing=reducing the opening) the water passage-way, it can become plugged-up ( whatever is sucked up by pump) easier.
2. The valve should be installed either A. on the inside of the transom where the water line enters the boat, (with use of a bulkhead fitting) This is to have a means to shut off the water if you should blow a water line.( this is with a set-back pump). or B. can be mounted right on the pump if that portion of the pump is on the inside of the transom.
So, yes, you should have some way to shut off water. And no you aren't going to notice any difference.( be honest-you really aren't concerned about emissions and fuel economy).
Riodog

curt
05-19-2002, 07:57 PM
I never saw ny performance gain directly from hier temp BUT ilost my milk shake making capabilities with the installation of a bypass system . Oil has to get warm to evaporate the condensation out of the block a warmer (not hot)block aides in this process,however engins are (laugh)cheap and a real jethead wants things incredibly simple .No thermostat has worked for years so why change.

Hustler
05-19-2002, 08:05 PM
Hey Gottajet, STOP questioning me and just get the damn boat together already, summer is here bud http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Hustler

apollo74
05-19-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by riodog:
Propless, maybe and no.
Sorry to counterdict you Wetdream but,
1. your engine will creat less emissions at a higher temperature (more complete combustion), but I doubt if you would be able to tell the difference in performance.
With your motor running cooler, you have a split second more leeway to shut down the motor if you encounter an over-heating problem. A gate valve only controls volume of water to motor, not pressure, and by restricting (closing=reducing the opening) the water passage-way, it can become plugged-up ( whatever is sucked up by pump) easier.
2. The valve should be installed either A. on the inside of the transom where the water line enters the boat, (with use of a bulkhead fitting) This is to have a means to shut off the water if you should blow a water line.( this is with a set-back pump). or B. can be mounted right on the pump if that portion of the pump is on the inside of the transom.
So, yes, you should have some way to shut off water. And no you aren't going to notice any difference.( be honest-you really aren't concerned about emissions and fuel economy).
Riodog
just a plumbing note- a gate valve was never designed to be a water regulating devise. in the plumbing industry a gate valve is strickly an on or off device. the valve of choice for balancing or throttling water flow is the ball valve-because of its quarter turn operation, it is easy to see what position it is in, thus making it much safer and more reliable than a gate valve and easier to adjust. when choosing a ball valve be aware that they are available in full port or reduced port design, so you need to look at the valve when fully open to see what the port size. happy plumbing!
[This message has been edited by apollo74 (edited May 19, 2002).]

HBjet
05-19-2002, 09:41 PM
Screw the gate valve. If you want to regulate the water pressure entering the block, get on of these.
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Gearhead_Garage/Other_Equipment/regulator.JPG
I have it set at 30psi and I use a ball valve on the water line exiting the block to regulate the water temp while maintaining consistant block pressure (for the most part) The max input pressure is 400psi which should handle the pressure comming from the pump which can range from 100-300psi.
HBjet

apollo74
05-19-2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by HBjet:
Screw the gate valve. If you want to regulate the water pressure entering the block, get on of these.
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Gearhead_Garage/Other_Equipment/regulator.JPG
I have it set at 30psi and I use a ball valve on the water line exiting the block to regulate the water temp while maintaining consistant block pressure (for the most part) The max input pressure is 400psi which should handle the pressure comming from the pump which can range from 100-300psi.
HBjet
hey hb-
i thought of that also but was concerned with plugging up the built in screen too quickly. did you remove the screen? have you had any plugging problems? if not, you're right that is definately the hot setup!

Bense468
05-19-2002, 10:19 PM
So its 30 out and 400 in? Is it adjustable on the out side? I was asking my bud for one of these but he was telling me I needed to know how much psi my jet was pushing. Good I am going to run one. Who makes it Randy? Oh I am intrested in the screen question also. Thanks

riodog
05-19-2002, 10:20 PM
Apollo74, I have no argument with your statement as you are entirely correct. However, in the real world of jetboating, a gate valve, ball valve, and yes, an outdoor faucet have been used more times than not over the years to regulate water, (volume), thereby regulating the water temperature. While this is not the correct approach it does work as long as there are no unforseen happenings. Cutting the volume of water going to the motor to play games with the water temperature is an overheated motor waiting to happen due lack of water. Which in turn can create hot spots in the motor. Actually we're talking apples and oranges here because the original question had to do with gate valve =water temperature regulating device, and now we're getting into Pressure regulating device.
HBjet, the gate valve is nothing more than an extra, mishap safety device. As for why you would want 30 lbs 0f pressure I haven't a clue, what's the highest pressure-cap you've ever seen on a car radiator? Just for the record, where have you ever seen a jet pump put out 300 lbs of pressure? Inquiring minds want to know.
Riodog aka M.W. Fulton

HBjet
05-19-2002, 10:37 PM
Apollo, the screen is large enough to let sand pass through without a problem. I didn't remove it because if something was going to get caught in there I'd want is at the screen and not in the valve somewhere.
Bense468, I got the valve from Grainger. I forgot the model/mfg. I'll have to dig it up. One thing I did was get the valve with a 3/4" input and output for the larger valve inside and installed 3/4" to -10 brass fittings on either sides.
RioDog, you can develop hot spots in the block when the water pressure entering the block is too high. Running regulated water at 30psi will keep the block pressure consistant verses a ball/gate valve setup where the block pressure will change depending on what RPM your turning.
I know of recorded pressures off the pump at 350psi which was off Hot Tub, an unblown fuel jet drag boat which also runs a regulater.
HBjet
BTW, Riodog, comparing a closed automotive cooling system to a open jet boats system is like comparing apples to oranges.
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited May 19, 2002).]

LVjetboy
05-20-2002, 01:21 AM
Gate, ball or globe...all affect both flow volume AND PRESSURE. Putting one on the hardline is a good safety feature.
Of the three, globes are most linear for flow adjustment and are designed for flow regulation...although for our use any of the three seem to work just fine. I like balls because quick shutoff and easy to see handle position. Plus they look way cooler http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Water temp may not be as important as oil temp, and in a jet boat oil temp can run pretty high at full throttle.
The typical 15 psi radiator cap limit is based on radiator design limits and not head or engine gaskets, therefore N/A for jet boats. 30 psi may actually be better if all is torqued well and gaskets are sound.
Engine coolant pressure will only equal pump static pressure if no flow...as in closed dump valve. Otherwise there's a pretty dramatic pressure drop across the pump bleed hole.
Higher pressure to block actually reduces tendency to boil, i.e. less not more hot spots.
Also, pressure variation with throttle, thus flow variation, may not be a bad thing? Constant pressure = constant flow, so must be adjusted for highest coolant temp at idle. But full throttle equals highest oil temp, and here more flow may actually be a good thing. Not sure about this one yet.
Different setups work just fine of course. If you're happy with your system, all is good and no worries. Crack another cool one.
jer

Bense468
05-20-2002, 12:09 PM
Also, pressure variation with throttle, thus flow variation, may not be a bad thing? Constant pressure = constant flow, so must be adjusted for highest coolant temp at idle. But full throttle equals highest oil temp, and here more flow may actually be a good thing. Not sure about this one yet
This is actually what I was thinking. I am not sure either. I have not run into anyone really running a pressure valve off their jet yet that I have seen on the water. HBjet I have the big grainger book so I will look through it. Thanks. I do know this I was just running a ball valve off the pump last year and I went to Buena Vista. Next thing I know I am running hot so I shut her down. I could not get to the valve my headers were to hot from ideling for a while and when I came home I had 2 blown head gaskets. Between the middle cylinders. I am thinking this could of been from getting to hot, or that it fatigued the gaskets and the pressure off the jet later wiped them out. I am not sure. I checked everything out bought a new set of heads (because I wanted to) Merlins and am not investigating the pressure valve.

GottaJet
05-20-2002, 04:56 PM
HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HUSTLER YOU WERE RIGHT BUDDY I'LL NEVER QUESTION THE WISE ONE AGAIN http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif but seriously thanks...silvers on me this weekend

HOSS
05-20-2002, 06:16 PM
Do not use a ball valve. It is designed to run fully open or fully closed, PERIOD! If someone tells you different, they are either misinformed or lying to you. You can not run a ball valve half open and expect it to stay in that position. Vibrations will move the lever. If you think differently, then you have no or minimal experience with this type of valve. A gate valve will allow you to "dial in" your vessels optimum running temp. This has been used since jet boats have been squirting.
I run a 6-8" piece of stainless out of the pump and into the gate. Then I run 10k psi hose. Why so much? Well when doing the MK-V`s lets say there was some scrap.
Oh yeah, thats the Navy Mark 5 for all the laymen out there.

LVjetboy
05-20-2002, 07:18 PM
Hi HOSS,
Do not use a ball valve. It is designed to run fully open or fully closed, PERIOD! If someone tells you different, they are either misinformed or lying to you.
Actually, depending on reference, balls are recommended for full open/closed and also LIMITED throttling operations.
You can not run a ball valve half open and expect it to stay in that position. Vibrations will move the lever.
I've run balls on a jet for about seven years and have had no problem with lever movement in the 1/2 to 3/4 open or position. Or with dialing in flow. Actually, I use them for every valve on my jet. Maybe I'm the lucky one? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
A gate valve will allow you to "dial in" your vessels optimum running temp.
Actually, a gate is listed as the WORST valve for regulation according to the Chemical Engineering Handbook and gates are only recommended for open/closed operation...NOT EVEN LIMITED throttling. Although I've also used them on jet boats.
If you'd like to read up on valve selection, just click this link:
GateValve? (http://www.cheresources.com/valvezz.shtml)
This <Gate valve> has been used since jet boats have been squirting.
Yes, but not because it's best...although gates may be cheaper.
Now on your hardline out of the pump directly to a valve, on that, we agree http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
jer

HBjet
05-20-2002, 08:43 PM
Can anyone tell how much there regulating water with a gate or ball valve? I'll save you the time. NO! The only way to truly regulate the water flow to the block is with a regulator, not a valve. I know people have been using them for years, but if you think about it your output pressure will always very depending on what your RPM is, no matter where your gate or ball valve are set at. IF you don't understand what I'm talking about, turn on your garden hose one turn and cover half of the opening with your thumb, then turn on the hose another few turns and see the difference in water pressure exiting the hose. With a pressure regulater the output has a consistant set max pressure. If I set the output pressure too low, then my Bassett T valve would never open and my headers would cook. Set at 30psi I regulate the temp by adjusting the exit water with a ball valve. This setup is designed to properly cool your motor without blasting tons of pressure into the block.
HBjet

apollo74
05-20-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by LVjetboy:
Hi HOSS,
Yes, but not because it's best...although gates may be cheaper.
Now on your hardline out of the pump directly to a valve, on that, we agree http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
jer
lvjetboy you are exactly correct. the gate valve is not designed or intended to balance flow. the mechanical industry uses ball valves for balancing hvac and plumbing systems all over the world and in alot bigger applications than our pumps. actually the globe valve was the previous standard for balancing prior to the ball valve, only problem was they plug sometimes.
hbjet is absolutely correct that the pressure reducing valve is the only true way to regulate the water pressure because it modulates based on incoming pressure. the only issue is that it may plug up. the gate and ball vlave do regulate pressure to a point in an open system, if you restrict the volume enough in a open system the pressure will drop. however it does not modulate and the pressures would be all over the place depending on rpm. hoss also has a point that gate valves have "worked" since the inception of jets, so sometimes the old saying "if it aint broke don't fix it" applies. sometimes we have a tendency to overcompilcate things just trying to be perfect-just look under the hood of your car! i don't know about you but i don't want my jet to look like that!!!

LVjetboy
05-20-2002, 09:45 PM
Ok, I'll give it a shot HBjet.
With my ball partially closed I regulate maximum pressure at full throttle to about 5 psi +/- 5 psi flux. Certainly within safe block pressure limits? This as measured by a pressure gage on the intake manifold:
http://users.lvcm.com/lvjetboy/PressureGage.jpg
If I open the ball valve full (not what I normally run), I get about 30 psi +/- 5 psi at full throttle. So apparently, I can "regulate" both flow AND pressure by adjusting the position of the inlet ball valve. And still maintain maximum safe block pressure.
Although a pressure regulator will limit maximum pressure, an inlet valve can also "regulate" pressure based on throttle (handle) opening and valve flow design characteristics...some more linear than others. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
If I read your post right HBjet, you use a ball valve to adjust or "regulate" flow to your headers and rely on the pressure regulator to limit maximum pressure to the engine. Although this works for you and I'm not suggesting change, here's what I'm thinking:
1) Safe block pressure (30 psi and below?) can also be maintained with a simple valve and correct dump line sizing without the added complexity of a pressure regulator. This I've measured and verified on a mild LS-6 with NOS. 5 psi at full throttle leaves a big safety margin. My guess is, some who experience milkshake have a seal problem, possibly aggrevated by a poorly sized single(?) dump line, or restrictions (valves?) on the dump line(s). Also, logs versus headers adds an unknown for seal pressure.
If that's the case, a pressure regulator will "solve" their problem and they'll forever be a pressure regulator convert. But properly sized dumps may ALSO solve their problem.
BTW, this may not apply to race engines with extremely high bowl pressure...but I don't have experience with extremely high bowl pressures for race engines. The most I've turned is 5.5k on a Berkely "B" My guess is, properly sized dump lines may also work in the race world, just larger sizes. Although race boats typically don't have the long cruise oil temperature issues we have.
2) Pressure regulators may be more prone to dirt contamination and malfunction than valves...although depends on design and where you boat. But Ken Marsh from the other board did report a pressure regulator malfunction from dirt contamination...blew an engine plug I believe. This posted after I voiced a concern about pressure regulators. Not guaranteed to happen of course, just a possibility avoided by the simple inlet valve and free dump line design.
3) With proper dump line sizing you can limit engine average pressure to 5 psi even when turning a Berkeley "B" to 5k...well within safe head gasket pressure and most lake boat operations. A tested fact.
4) I think I understand the thumb over the garden hose somewhat, having used them from time to time http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Now my question is, what's the ideal coolant flow rate versus rpm? With our jets, high rpm's equal high bearing loads: Driving oil temps through the roof. Higher coolant flow rates (and pressure) typically transfer more heat from the block, which is a good thing.
One solution is an oil cooler, but lacking that...is a limit on engine coolant flow rate (as imposed by a pressure regulator) the ideal solution? Or is the increase in coolant flow and heat transfer as a function of pump speed the better solution (as long as max. block design pressure is not exceeded) Just some thoughts...
I know all this is cerebral...and possibly anal. But I'm a firm believer in the "best" setup and the backyard tweeker...ever searching for the ideal solution. So bring it on HB!
BTW,
I'll save you the time. NO!
You didn't save me any time. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif
jer
[This message has been edited by LVjetboy (edited May 21, 2002).]

Bense468
05-20-2002, 10:36 PM
turn on your garden hose one turn and cover half of the opening with your thumb, then turn on the hose another few turns and see the difference in water pressure exiting the hose
Can you explain that one more time I don't think I have ever used a hose. I am missing out look how much fun that sounds like.
Just kidding Randy.
Jeff

HBjet
05-20-2002, 11:57 PM
LVjetboy, I don't understand your "Bring it on" I didn't know this was a contest of...(fill in the blank)
What is the "added complexity of a pressure regulator" When you replace your ball/gate valve with it? I just can't seem to figure out the complex part of it.
The way my water system is plumbed goes are follows:
3/8" pipe off the suction piece of the bowl to a 3/8" female pipe to -10 brass fitting. -10 hose to a -10 to 3/4" pipe brass fitting and then through the regulator and back to a -10 hose that T's into -10 hoses entering the block through 1/2" openings. The water exits out of 1/2" outlets one going into -8 hose to a bassett T valve (spring valve) then through -8 hose to the headers. The other side exits into -12 hose through a ball valve and then exits back into the lake/river.
Currently my ball valve on the exit side is open all the way and my boat temp is at a cool 140 degrees and i don't have to mess with any other valves.
So what is so complex about this setup? I don't have manaul valves to mess with, no oil pressure gauges plumbed into my manifold to watch the block pressure. I just don't get it.
LVjetboy, I wish you stuck around at Jacks shop when you where there on a Tuesday. I was at DNE (blue and black Eliminator with a black dually hooked up to it. I saw you get your pump back from Jack. You would have been able to see my setup in person and see how it works. Next time!
HBjet

LVjetboy
05-21-2002, 01:36 AM
Hi HB,
"Bring it on": I get beligerant late night after drinking the cheap stuff. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif Don't mind me. A friendly contest of the "...." nothing personal...no offense.
Wish I'd stuck around Jack's too to see your ride...looked sweet! On the trip back I said to Karen, "I should've at least said hi to HB if that was him" http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif (Jack told me at the last minute that was your jet) Wasn't sure who I waved at http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif But I'm kinda shy and was in a hurry to get home.
Karen said who's HB? And, jetboy, you're such a looser...no just kidding. I thought about it and said, well, it's his handle and I think it stands for Huntington Beach, CA? But I'm not sure what he actually looks like. Then we talked about the net and the jet board thing on the trip back.
Anyway, if I had to do it again, I'd have taken the time to say hi and check your ride http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
But I do love a technical challenge...back to the cooling thing.
Your one -12 is equal in flow area to two -8's so you have a similar dump restriction to mine. Except for the dump valve...which I have none and yours is full open...again the same thing.
140 degrees is similar to mine this time of year and not too cool in my opinion considering oil temp. I think mine runs about 150 to 160 full open depending on water and air temp. Your engine of course is putting out more hp than mine.
Water pressure gage...I added this after a discussion on the other board about pressure and found my water pressure was no problem...even with the inlet valve full open. But left the gage on because I like numbers and it didn't look too bad http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif Like you I don't monkey with the valves once set.
Added complexity: I think pressure regulators have a feedback mechanism that may be sensitive to contamination (fine sand, dirt, etc.) so although not complex like a carburetor, can cause problems if the regulating mechanism jams. Valves can also jam but not as likely...have pretty big openings. You just have to make sure they're set right...especially for those who don't run a thermostat.
I have some ideas about flow vs. rpm profiles and wonder what your numbers are.
Hope to see you one day on the lake,
jer
[This message has been edited by LVjetboy (edited May 21, 2002).]

riodog
05-21-2002, 01:44 AM
You guys can argue this from now til topless is a virgin again, but you ain't got it yet! LVJB, you get so far out on a tangent I think I've forgotten the subject already. I'm not going to waste a bunch of time trying to explain it to you but just give you some ideas to think about. And yes, I do have just a little bit of experience with motors that turn high RPMs.
No, you can't balance the system by going to oversize dump lines. Why? Because after you get to a certain size (depending upon individual motor)it's of no benefit because the motor is acting as the restriction. I've gone so far as using two -12 dumplines on a motor that was being fed by one -10 feed line. Didn't work.( I was attempting to get rid of excess pressure in the block). In order to eliminate the pressure in the block, you have to reduce the pressure BEFORE the water gets to the block! By using a valve (I don't give a rat's ass what kind of valve you use as it does not matter) on the dump line, you can regulate the pressure in the entire system, dah, I thought we were trying to get rid of some of the block pressure!
HBJ, you're on the right track, however, your system could use "tweaking" for a little more REDUNDANCY . Meaning you have it right by limiting the pressure before the motor. My only complaint with the way you have it plumbed is that in the real world, and I boat the same places you do, I have not only sucked up sand, but also weeds, plastic baggies, etc. Your strainer screen may pass sand but the other "stuff" that you may encounter will plug your system. You get your block water temperature up around 280-300- if even for a few seconds and there go your rings, any more time and steam does funny things to gaskets and then maybe aliyyle cold water does get through and there goes the heads, etc. If you clog your relief valve or it "sticks", your motor has no other way to get water and is history.
A better way to plumb your system is install a "T" of the same inside diameter as your main feed line in the same position as the relief valve. Off of the "T" install a pressure regulating valve ( I use 9763K49-McMaster/Carr $27.63) and from there to a dump at the back of the transom. By doing it this way you don't have the restriction in the main feed line which means a better chance of not getting clogged, and if the relief valve does malfunction, the motor will still receive water. I'll take high water pressure over high temperture any day. Also, by bleeding off high pressure before it gets to the block, you don't get as high a surge pressure to the block when you stab the peddle, which in turn lessens your potential to make milkshakes.
Now , you're asking yourself, "self, who the hell is he to be telling me all this shit"?
Well, HE is someone that went through SIX motors one summer trying to get to the bottom of where the damn water was coming from. He changed heads, three different blocks,( that he had tested to be sure there were no cracks), three different manifolds ( two BDS blower manifolds and one tunnel), the services of GS Marine, Gil Nevarez Engines, and a bunch more that I could name. There are seven dumps out the back of my boat and I've tried most every configuration to lose excess pressure imaginable. So I guess the bottom line is this:
Aggressor Dave,,, get your ass in gear and design a pump with a built-in pressure relief valve and then I won't have to subject all of these budding young engineers to my long-winded rantings.
Riodog
PS. if anyone want a bunch of pressure valve or -12 line, let me know.

HammerDown
05-21-2002, 05:49 AM
L.V., I gotta tell ya your one of the kings of back yard R+D...I switched over to your plumbing setup early last season, and I also see lower water psi at the block. However I think I'm going back to the gate valve at the pump, reason...my ball valve lever dose move around some,(scary). With the gate valve I can crank down on the packing nut, thus stop any movement from vibration or water flow. And I could recall where it was set. ie. 2-2 1/2 turns out from full closed. Also I could dial in the gate valve a little easer.
H.B. I'v seen first hand when a regulating valve stuck do to debre and steam'd a motor... Not mine, someone on the river.
Another bud of mine uses one and likes it, so far with out broblems. We boat in very clean deep water...but the nature of the pump just seems to find small crap on top of the water...and in it goes. One thing that I use and found very helpfull is running a filter before water enters the block and also a filter before water enters the headers...no more blocked spider lines!

LVjetboy
05-21-2002, 10:43 AM
Riodog - some of the best ideas come from tangents. At least all my ranting was enough to stir you up off the porch for a couple o' barks http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
jer

Blown509Liberator
05-21-2002, 12:51 PM
Here is my fix to block PSI. It Tee's in and has an external dump. Also New blower motor block is a dart with the extra bosses welded in to bolt the heads down from the lifter valley where you have missing head bolts on a BBC.
The valve is new to me. Always used a Bypass. Tried a Gate last year but never could get block PSI down.
http://www.grainger.com/images/products/4un29.jpg
Bronze Pressure Relief Valve 3/4 inch, 0 psi to 300 psi Pressure Range, 25 GPM Your Price: $25.00 Ship: Grainger Item#: 4UN31 Manufacturer: TEEL Mfg. Model#: 3300-0093-10
[This message has been edited by Blown509Liberator (edited May 21, 2002).]

HBjet
05-21-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by riodog:
in the real world, and I boat the same places you do, I have not only sucked up sand, but also weeds, plastic baggies, etc. Your strainer screen may pass sand but the other "stuff" that you may encounter will plug your system.
riodog, I agree, that other stuff will plug up my system, but don't you think it will plug up the 3/8" opening from the suction piece before it even reaches my regulator, someones ball or gate valve. BTW, the opening on a ball or gate valve when set for your boat (which is mostly 50% closed) has a much smaller opening then my 3/4" opening on my regulater. So if I can get weeds or plastic bags stuck infront of my regulater causing blockage, I guess I can also get struck by lightning! (Thanks JM)
Use what works best for your boat, budget, and peace of mind. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
HBjet
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited May 21, 2002).]

HOSS
05-21-2002, 05:13 PM
UUUUMMMM guys? Would someone please tell the U.S, Coast Guard and U.S. Navy that the ball valve is more than the gate valve for fine tuning. I think that they might wanna know. And since ya`ll can get the ball valve to stay in one position, WHEW! I must be loaded. I get it, you forgot to tell me you tack it to that position. Now I see. But what if I wanna move the ball say like .002 to chande the temp in my motor like 3 degrees. Will it stay? I know for a fact that a gate will.

jweeks123
05-22-2002, 12:15 AM
Let's see, with HB's regulator, when the pump pressure is low, the valve is open (because of the reg's adjusting spring). When HB speeds up, the inlet pressure rises, the valve starts to close, reducing the pressure. But wait....a piece debris gets into the valve and it can't close. So the valve stays open more than it should. And the motor overheats?? I don't think so. Just the opposite. But then HB sees a thong chick on the beach and quickly slows down to check it out. Pump pressure drops, reg valve opens due to spring pressure and piece of debris is free to continue on out of the valve.
I'd say if your cooling system makes you happy, pat yurself on the back and move on to the next topic........like the size of your nozzle.
jw

riodog
05-22-2002, 01:06 AM
HBjet, now you're getting it ! But I don't use a gate valve. I'm not gonna say what I use cause I'm getting tired of this subject and don't want to start more bs. you can see for yourself one of these days when we meet up. I have NO restrictions in my system.
Blown, that's about the same regulator that I was advocating, just a different model. Actually the part no. I listed is also available from Rex Marine,,, at TWICE the price that I get it from McMaster/Carr.
Sorry if I get "testy", I guess Lowriver and I come from the same school, except I have less patience and I'm NOT a nice guy!
Riodog
PS. fri=da strip, sat=big river, sat eve=lostlake, sun=church, and hung-over, come on down and we'll twist each others gate,ball, globe valves! Riodog

HBjet
05-22-2002, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by jweeks123:
Let's see, with HB's regulator, when the pump pressure is low, the valve is open (because of the reg's adjusting spring). When HB speeds up, the inlet pressure rises, the valve starts to close, reducing the pressure. But wait....a piece debris gets into the valve and it can't close. So the valve stays open more than it should. And the motor overheats?? I don't think so. Just the opposite. But then HB sees a thong chick on the beach and quickly slows down to check it out. Pump pressure drops, reg valve opens due to spring pressure and piece of debris is free to continue on out of the valve.
I'd say if your cooling system makes you happy, pat yurself on the back and move on to the next topic........like the size of your nozzle.
jw
Here is the spec sheet on the regulator I'm using. Please tell me why I shouldn't use this. Thanks for your help http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Spec Sheet (http://www.wattsreg.com/pdf-files/es-sheets/regulator/esN35B.pdf)
You will need Adobe Acrobat to read it.
HBjet
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited May 22, 2002).]

LVjetboy
05-22-2002, 11:56 AM
HBjet,
Looking at your regulator design, the SS screen will keep the big junk out of the pressure piston and bleed holes, but the screen could be plugged in some water conditions (causing overheat). Junk that will pass through a valve will get stuck in the mesh of the screen. The other concern would be bronze corrosion causing the pressure piston to eventually bind (overheat or overpressure). Not that these are gauranteed to happen of course...just that they are a possiblilty with a pressure regulated system given the small clearances in the regulating mechanism. With RioDogs T setup, the overheat by screen plugging would be eliminated.
RioDog, obviously, at some power level, inlet and outlet line sizing alone will not reduce block pressure to safe levels. Although you can reduce inlet line size (or valve restriction) to keep max pressure safe even for the most powerful engine built, at some point the inlet line (or valve restriction) would be too small to flow enough cooling at idle.
However, for MOST of us jetters here running stock to mild engines, correct dump line sizing and an inlet valve (gate, ball or globe) works well and trouble free. For these engines, a regulator is not needed. My engine has an estimated 350-maybe 400 hp (500 NOS) and my block pressure is quite low without the use (or drawbacks) of a regulator.
Now, on the subject of inlet valves http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Who gives a rats ass about what kind of 'frickin' valve you use at the back of the transom? It's only use is for an "emergency water shut off" in case you lose a line to the motor! DAH
If you're only using it for "emergency shut off" Rio, then definitly a ball http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif They're a lot easier to grab an shut off quickly.
UUUUMMMM guys? Would someone please tell the U.S, Coast Guard and U.S. Navy that the ball valve is more than the gate valve for fine tuning
I'll get right on that HOSS, right after I straighten out this spec sheet "Instructions to the Port Engineer"
NavySpec (http://www.msc.navy.mil/N7/gtr/gtr23.doc)
that states, (8.2.3i), "Gate and butterfly valves shall not be used for throttling services." Darn that Navy, wish they'd read their own specs!
Finally, as far as debating which cooling system or valve or whatever is best, and how things work or why they don't...that's just something I like to do. If some are uncomfortable with the heat generated by threads like these, or bored with technical details, then have another cool one and switch threads. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Often, understanding the engineering behind why something works is better than burning six blocks with trial and error. Although several different approaches to a problem work fine...some eventually work better than others. Not saying I've found it, but I'm always in search of the best way no matter what I do...and am alway happy to debate it.
jer < wanna be engineer http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif oops! AND a BRF

Eric
05-22-2002, 01:58 PM
I also run a regulator. I have it tee'd off of the main line and plumbed so the excess pressure is dumped overboard. I prefer this method for the simple reason that if it fails it will not cut off the water supply to the engine. The regulator did freeze up on me once, not due to debris but only due to alkali in the river water. There was some corrosive crusty junk that had glued the regulator closed. The engine did not overheat since the flow was not restricted, I did however end up with a milkshake due to the increased pressure. Bottom line is I'll take a milkshake instead of an overheat any day.
I use a ball valve before the regulator to adjust flow volume (for temp) and as a safety shut off. I've never had a problem with it moving around by itself.
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited May 22, 2002).]

HBjet
05-22-2002, 02:42 PM
Eric, can you tell me how your system is plumbed starting from the inlet off the jet pumps suction piece? I'm curious, maybe I'm missing something, but if you have a T off the main line, one side has the regulator which then goes to your block, and the other side is the excess and that goes back out the boat, but then you said if the regulator fails, it's no worries because your still getting water.....how? Maybe I'm missing something so that is why I ask if you can tell me how your system is plumbed starting from the suction piece of the pump all the way back out the transom. Thanks.
HBjet

spectras only
05-22-2002, 03:19 PM
I've used the ball valve for over 13 years [it never moved from its set position]on the same engine,never had a problem with it.Go figure http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif.I always follow # 1 rule; "keep it simple stupid" http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif ,live the darn things alone!
[This message has been edited by spectras only (edited May 22, 2002).]

HOSS
05-22-2002, 04:11 PM
LVjet or whatever, for throttling? What the hell are you smokin? Ball valves in vessels are used for ON-OFF applications only! Gate valves are used for ADJUSTMENTS as in fuel oil, gray water etc. IN OTHER WORDS WANNA BE SPREAD SHEET READIN` ENGINEER---------------a gate valve shall be used when adjustments in systems is a requirment.
I installed ball valves in all systems. But a gate was used as in before a meter!
But, you knew that didn`t you because you are building vessels and are in the field. I am willing to bet that if you ask most boat builders as well as pump builders they will say use the gate.
Bro, use what you want, I don`t care. If it works for you then great. I myself will use a gate. But that`s only my preference.

squirt
05-22-2002, 09:56 PM
WOW way good topic, and I avoided it cause the title of Gate Valve seemed so simple. I've been thinking alot about the cooling system, so much so I designed and am machining a regulator (for fun) besids it's gonna look way better than those brass ones.. I was also extremely concerned with debris causing a regulator failure but after reading the way Rio, blown, and Eric are plumbing theirs I think the Tee is the way to go. I wanted to add a thermo stat also, but after thinking about LV's posts about high rpm's resulting in high oil temps ( if I remember aprox 10 deg. over water temp right LV?) maybe running a little cool isn't a bad trade-off. I don't think these are pissing matches just great tech discussions. Oh yeah I'm switchin to a ball valve and installing a psi gauge on my manifold...so there! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

LVjetboy
05-23-2002, 12:18 AM
Squirt, making your own pressure relief...I'm impressed! Wish I could do that with what I got. I have a hard time making an engine mount with my lame tools.
As you mentioned, the oil temp thing may be as important as coolant temp, and although related, for those not running oil coolers, the oil temp can shoot through the roof. Considerably higher than water temp at full throttle bearing loads. I've lost my numbers from last year, but if I remember right something like 260 oil temp with 160 to 170 or so on water temp at full throttle (5k)...this on a very hot day (115 air, 80 water?) And reducing water temp variation with a thermostat may not be as important as keeping oil temps lower? Not sure. But that's a whole 'nother tangent.
Hoss, not smoking the good stuff...makes me cough http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif I prefer cheap liquids. And I really don't mean this in a bad way, although it does sound sorta bad, but are you sure the valves you installed for METERING were gate and not globes? Globes are also quite common and are recommended for metering in most applications. And both valves look very similar on the outside. As for prefering gates...that's cool bro. Rock on!
jer < a wanna-be-spread-sheet-reading-engineer http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif Jeez these titles are getting tough. Wait...where did the spread sheet thingy come from? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

Blown509Liberator
05-23-2002, 05:19 AM
HBjet
Here is a pic of the type reg. I am using plumed on Mark's (unchained) boat
It opens the valve when PSI is above a set limit and dump the exces. It is plumed from the pump to a Ball valve to the PSI reg. to my oil cooler them on to the motor. I have T/T exhaust so all my water exits though them.
MikeW
http://www.childsdale-ind-prop.com/jetpump.jpg
PS Squirt. I was re reading your post and wanted to through this in here. I have been talking to a few Engine builders and they said they see very little Hp/Tq gain or loss from varying coolent temp from 120 to 200 deg. In my field ( I am an Automotive instructor for Robert Bosch) we look to bring Temp up to help with emissions....but that is a hole another topic.
May 23, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Blown509Liberator (edited May 23, 2002).]

riodog
05-23-2002, 08:43 AM
Blown509Liberater, YOU get an "F", for plagerism! Now go back and do YOUR own research and resubmit! We just might raise your grade if you come up with something new and innovative. "Everything"in your last post, I have so stated on the previous page! I will sue for damages. Furthermore, since you were the one that introduced as evidence, the FHOTO, this can also be used in giving you a failing grade. The VALVE,(that I prescribed,including part#) should be mounted on the inside of the of the transom or elsewhere, out of the turbulence at the back of the boat. The brass fittings should not be used as they will fatigue from just the turbulence alone, not including the weight of the valve and line that they are supporting and/or any additional vibration that may be present ( including driveline, pump, or any foreign object sucked up by pump).
Bad Teacher, you can stay after class and klean the chalkboard and NO boating this weekend!
Riodog
PS. yeah, I know, just seeing if you're awake!

LVjetboy
05-23-2002, 09:17 AM
Ok, so now you get to be king of sarcasm? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif Oh wait, squirt already won that title...

Blown509Liberator
05-23-2002, 09:30 AM
Funny guy there Riodog......
I agree mounting it in side would be better. I just don't have a pic of my set up on hand.
and i'll tell ya what... we'll even give you extra creidit for posting it first Rio....lol

Eric
05-23-2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by HBjet:
Eric, can you tell me how your system is plumbed starting from the inlet off the jet pumps suction piece? I'm curious, maybe I'm missing something, but if you have a T off the main line, one side has the regulator which then goes to your block, and the other side is the excess and that goes back out the boat, but then you said if the regulator fails, it's no worries because your still getting water.....how? Maybe I'm missing something so that is why I ask if you can tell me how your system is plumbed starting from the suction piece of the pump all the way back out the transom. Thanks.
HBjet
HB, I have a solid piece of pipe comming off of the pump about 6 inches long, then a ball valve, then a "T" with the regulator, an AN fitting on the engine side of the "T" and SS to the engine. The outlet side of the regulator has a hose that goes to a dump on the transom.
Here's how the regulator is plumbed:
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Gearhead_Garage/Motors_and_Drives/2tn_.JPG
Ok that came out really small. Anyway, the left side of the T is from the pump. the right side is to the engine. The top water line (outlet side of the regulator) is dumped overboard.
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited May 23, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited May 23, 2002).]

kojac
05-23-2002, 10:47 AM
Good topic. I tried a new way to plumb water to the jetboat engine. #6 hose off of pump to 1/2" gate valve (left open} to #10 stainless line. to 3/4 ball valve at driver seat. {for Manual control} to Tee. split tee to two #10 lines to run to 3/4 openings to front of the engine. Two # 10 dump lines out of front of motor to lake. Prior to the tee manifold I feed water from two # 10 feed waterlines coming off of the ride plate to feed water to the motor after the boat comes on plane. I have a check valve on each of the lines coming from the ride plate to close of back pressure for idleing when the globe valve is open. I tried this system last weekend on a tunnel hull with a 970hp 572 cubic inch motor at 6900 rpm's 123mph on radar. I still have some experimenting to do because I could not get temperature in the motor. The water pressure never rose above 3# of pressure with this system. Hopefully after I get the system balanced by trying different size lines. I will Install a rpm seleniod valve instead of the 3/4 gate bypass so I will not have to remember to open and close the valve for Idle and off plane. The Purpose of this project was to see if it would cool the motor and to try to see if there was any more speed to be experienced by forceing the water that is used to cool the motor back out the nozzle for more useable jetpump thrust. If anyone is interested I will report on further results when I have finished testing.
Kojac...
p.s. My header line comes off of one of my dump lines. There was not enough pressure to open basset valve. So now I have to tee of the 1/2' line coming of the pump before the 3/4 line.

LVjetboy
05-23-2002, 11:50 AM
Well, I'd be interested kojac. Sounds like you have one healthy jet!

squirt
05-23-2002, 11:58 AM
Mike, I guess I wasn't as concerned with performance as much asI was with engine wear. Running at 120 or so when clipping along just sounds cold. It seems to me this is better than sending the oil temps through the roof and loosing an engine to bearing failure. So now I'm on the path of regulating the pressure and monitoring oil temps because I don't want to run an oil cooler. Man these jets have been around along time and it seems there is still no widely excepted " best way" to do thinks...........Just gives us tinker'ers something to do I guess http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

HBjet
05-23-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by kojac:
The water pressure never rose above 3# of pressure with this system. The Purpose of this project was to see if it would cool the motor and to try to see if there was any more speed to be experienced by forceing the water that is used to cool the motor back out the nozzle for more useable jetpump thrust.
If the water pressure entering the block is 3psi and your redirecting it to the pump after it exits the block, I don't think you ever see an performance increase. If you think about it, your jet pump is pumping huge amounts of water with a PSI about 50-60 times greater then the exiting water from your block. I think your reaching a little too hard for an increase in speed with that setup.
HBjet

riodog
05-23-2002, 09:44 PM
Wow, an "A" in sarcasm, I guess it does pay to put forth a little extra effort. And all the while I figured you'd just consider me another a888ole!
Squirt, the jet pump has been around along time and basically if you leave everything stock, you usually don't have many problems with water in the oil and leaking gaskets. However, way back in the early seventies,(this is before my time of course) when the "OLD TIMERS" were first starting to make jets GO FAST, they had this same problem. At the time, Mike Kuhl,( a top fuel wrench) who coined the name "RIVER RAT" came up with a way to solve the problem. Although you don't see it much today (on jets) it's still viable, and that is to use a through-hull water pick-up and use a cam driven water pump. There are as many ways to plumb a jetboat as there are jetboats and there's really no right way or wrong way, whatever works for your situation. The only thing that I stress when asked about the best way to do the job is REDUNDENCY. Leave yourself an out. If you can incorporate any kind of back-up system in your design then by all means do so because if there is a way for a boatmotor to &*%# itself up-it's gonna happen sooner or later.(with me it's sooner).
Riodog aka Mr.Sarcasm

squirt
05-23-2002, 10:30 PM
Rio, Funny thing you should mention a cam driven water pump.......I just happen to have one. Although it's not installed on the jet (came on a Mech injected L88 I bought out of a v-drive) but now you got me thinking. I'm hopeing to finish the lathe work on my regulator tomorrow and I want to give that a whirl but I bet a water pump would sure take care or alot of the cooling ills we have on jets.

kojac
05-24-2002, 07:50 AM
HBjet, I may not have been clear on my discription of this plumbing setup on one of my boats. The main supply of water to the motor comes from the two pickups I installed on my rideplate. Each pickup goes directly to one of the front water supplys on the engine block and the water then dumps out into the lake from two separate #10 hoses. When running this setup I only have 3#s of water pressure on the motor. I only use the Berkley pump to supply water at idle or off plane use. I will have my brother run behind me with radios to ascertain at what rpms are needed to switch over from pump to water pickup. As far as more speed is concerned I'll try every idea that may help. I don't have enough data yet to make a determination. It will take changeing ride plates and the radar gun along with almost same lake,day,atmosphere/temperature conditions to determine end result. That's the fun of trying. At the end of the race every bit helps.
Thanks for the reply. When I have more data I'll let you know. Kojac

Costello
05-25-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by HOSS:
LVjet or whatever, for throttling? What the hell are you smokin? Ball valves in vessels are used for ON-OFF applications only! Gate valves are used for ADJUSTMENTS
HOSS, you are on the right track in that ball valves are NOT for throttling flow in ANY application. Will it work? Yes, but it is not the way we plumb a system in a oilfield or gas plant operating system. We do not even use gate valves, but they would be more appropriate than a ball valve. The inconsistant and surging type of flow one will experience through use of a ball valve as a flow restriction device is what makes it less than ideal, as well as the previously mentioned problems. The appropriate valve for throttling flow is a GLOBE VALVE. No ands, ifs, or buts. That is according to engineering specs for any oilfield, gas plant application.

squirt
05-25-2002, 08:53 PM
Well just for the hell of it I will through some more gas on the fire. I'm in the vacuum industry (not hoover type vacuum). We have developed and are selling butterfly valves (alot like ball valves)_for throttling. If manualy opperated we use a detented locking ball screw. If pneumatic we use sensors and stops. If motorized we use stepper motors. These valves (ball valves) work really well for this purpose and can work in jets but again your reducing volume not pressure. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/tongue.gif

LVjetboy
05-26-2002, 03:18 AM
Costello, just to keep the record straight for those skimming and only reading your last post,
HOSS did not mention globes and posted with great conviction that, "a gate valve is to regulate."
LVjetboy on the other hand posted that gate valves are on/off and that, "globes are the most linear for flow adjustment and are designed for flow regulation"
So about that right track thing?
Now as for using a gate or ball for flow metering, you posted, "ball valves are NOT for throttling in ANY application." and that, "gate would be more appropriate than ball"
Certainly neither valve is "designed" for metering. In fact, most references specifically state that it is gates that are "Not recommended for throttling applications." while some mention balls and limited throttling.
For example this one:
GateNotSuitable (http://www.tpub.com/fluid/ch2c.htm)
Which states, "Gate valves are not suitable for throttling purposes. The control of flow is difficult because of the valve’s design, and the flow of fluid slapping against a partially open gate can cause extensive damage to the valve."
Or this one:
GateNotRecommended (http://www.chicagotube.com/valves_description.shtml)
Which states in bold print that a gate is, "Not recommended for throttling applications" and yet lacks that warning on the ball.
Or maybe this one:
BallLimitedThrottle (http://www.cheresources.com/valvezz.shtml)
Which clearly states that a gate valve is fully open/closed non-throttling and yet also states that a ball valve can do "limited throttling." I can give more examples but you get the picture.
Either valve can be used to throttle and I've used both with good results. Balls do have the advantage of quick shut-off (1/4 turn) and easily judged handle position. And if your jet has a thermostat...linear flow control becomes even less an issue.
As for HOSS "being on the right track" because he uses a valve "not recommended for throttling" with the idea that it's actually best for throttling, well...? Maybe instead you should be recommending he use a globe if his cooling system is that sensitive to flow metering.
Now does all this matter? Not really. But some of this thread is debating valve design and I'm always up for that.
jer
[This message has been edited by LVjetboy (edited May 26, 2002).]

HOSS
05-26-2002, 06:56 AM
Ok, I stand corrected. But my whole point is that a ball valve can move. The lever can move which is not allowing for fine tuning. A gate will hold position that it is set in. And furthermore, we are not talking about complex hydraulic systems were noise, heat, or contamination are a factor. We are talking about water. Believe me, I would use a ball if I thought I should or could, they are cheaper. I have quite a few from the shipyard. A ball is extremely easy to install and operate.
But this was very informative to me and once again I do stand corrected.

jetblue
05-26-2002, 07:02 AM
Right or wrong, I run the same adjustable relief, and a 180 thermostat without problems. The relief dumps at 15lbs and gauge sits at 180. I can't see whats wrong with a thermostat unless you're running in alot of millfoil. A warm motor is a happy motor, as from the factory they were designed to run at a higher temp than 120'.Time will tell, but till then, Roost on.

MikeF
05-26-2002, 07:34 AM
This is a good thread! I'd like to add some here too.
In a jet boat, it is likely that 99.7+% of the water goes through the pump nozzle and not through the engine block. Most likely whatever goes through the impeller is going to make it through the nozzle (the path of least resistance). In a neovane, water pump or thru hull type pickup (low flow) you need some type of strainer to keep whatever you pick up out of the engine block or from getting stuck in a small screen in the water line.
As long as the block is not over pressurized and removes all the excess heat there should be no problems w/a open cooling system.
The engine load, using available HP (not like a automobile...i.e 20+HP @ cruise), the sufaces inside the engine are going to be hot or hotter. Higher load = Higher temp.
A temp gauge is only going to tell you the temp of the water passing through the engine (not steel suface temp) (depending on the volume of flow through it).
You can change that to your liking.
The engine gets enough cooling water to take away ALOT of the heat generated by the engine (steel sufaces). It seems that what we should be more concerned with would be the temp of the oil. If it stays too cold (below 170*) it does not flow as well as oil
that is warm (around 210*+). Oil that is too hot is no good too (over 250*++). Keeping that in control is probably more important (equally important just a little more complicated to do).
HB, I like your setup!
LV, I respect your gearhead!
KJ, I think your quest for (maybe 1mph?) costs alot (a little too much for me....don't get me wrong....more power to ya!).
Gearhead till the end http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif, Mike

LVjetboy
05-26-2002, 10:30 AM
HOSS, you just outclassed me http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Mike, I'm interested in the oil temp control thing. Most don't run oil coolers and those who do, usually don't have oil thermostat control. I'm wondering if anyone has tried the perma cool thermostat yet? It looks easy to install.
jer

jim lee
05-26-2002, 10:50 AM
Hey Squirt! I was bypassing this one too. But WOW it took a long time to read thru it all! Pretty funny, some of it.
I wonder about how everyone is using the bypass vlaves. Wouldn't you want to put something like a reducing valve in front of the bypass's intake? So it didn't try to bypass -everything- that can pass out of the pump? Kinda' like putting a resistor in front of a dioed so you don't try to dump infinite current thru the dioed.
No one says anything about strainers for the junk that causes all the troubles. I'd think..
pump -> valve -> Strainer -> regulater -> engine -> out
Is there a strainer that is big enough, that can strain out sand and handle 400 psi available out there?
P.S. Squirt, lets see some pix of that regulater your buildin'.
-jim lee

HammerDown
05-26-2002, 03:45 PM
As I stated above...I run 2 strainers...one for the motor, and one for the headers. They will keep out a grain of sand...work great...no sand in the block...and no clogged header lines, and I put restrictors in the header jets for a finer spray of water.

Costello
05-26-2002, 07:16 PM
LVJetboy (Valveboy), I said that Hoss was on the right track in that ball valves are not a valve suitable for throttling. No; gates are not suitable either, but it is more likely to hold it's position than the ball valve. You get an "A" for your previous Globe Valve comment, that is the proper valve in this application.

HOSS
05-26-2002, 07:44 PM
Well Gee Beav! Don`t I get at least a B for the fact that vibrations cause movement and this is after all only water we are talking about controlling. If I were to know that this setup also was to include liquid nitrogen, then gee, I woulda picked a ball over gate.

82SleekCraft
05-26-2002, 08:30 PM
If you guys are so concerned with a ball valve moving, then why don't you connect some sort of a fixed mechanism to the ball valve handle to prevent it from moving? A simple wire to both sides of the valve would prevent the handle from moving. Better yet, a turnbuckle would provide an adjustable setup. Another ball valve just before the adjustable one may be left fully open and will be the water shutoff if a hose blows.
Just my $.02

HOSS
05-27-2002, 01:28 PM
How many valves is that again?
And a turnbuckle too?
I bring a spare boat filled with spare parts.

MikeF
05-27-2002, 01:43 PM
LV, I do not have any experience with the permacool thing. I did take a look at the website and it did not have a plumbing type chart to get an idea of how it exactly is supposed to work. I don't know what type of cooler would be used?
My idea at the present (if there is a need) time is to mount a small auto type oil cooler in the pan (I have a 14qt Dooley). Have it modified to have AN type fittings on the ends and mount through the side of the pan. There is a space where it could fit w/o a problem. I would put water through the cooler (just tee off the regulated water to the block, using a ball type valve to control amount of flow. I do not have a oil temp gauge but I do have a infrared temp gun that should work well enough.
As long as the lines are cleared after usage, I think it would work OK. Mike

MikeC
05-27-2002, 08:35 PM
So many way's to plumb. Funny I just installed an inline regulater (an ACME, from ACE Hardware), like HBjets this week and had the chance to test it this weekend. I don't know why, but I was running hotter than I like to. About 180ish. Before, my boat only had a Ball type valve on the outlet side. The line in is a smaller than the line out and seemed to work pretty well. I like running my BBC at approx 130 ish, don't like to smell the oil that is dripping on the block..... I'm just wondering why the inline reg would restrict my flow so much...... ?
MikeC

396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
05-27-2002, 11:18 PM
I dont mean to jump in here because I'm learning too but if you need some high tec vale(or whatever the hell it is)now, then why did all the old ass boats run a gate valve for so many years with out a problem? My boss has had a gate vale on his jet and he had his boat running for 6 plus years without a single engine problem. Why cant it be simple? I just want to know so I put the right shit in my boat in a few weeks. 396---out!

LVjetboy
05-28-2002, 12:27 AM
396, Simple is good and reliable.
In fact, I WAY prefer the simple method, and try for that in every thing I do. Less chance for things to go wrong. As 'spectras only' posted, KISS! Yea, that's right, Keep It Simple Stupid. A theme I follow religously, which I'm sure most racer do too. Although spin may suggest otherwise.
Unfortunately, you also need to think about some things regardless of "tradition" or what's been done in the past...to improve the sport if you choose to do so. Not that BALL VALVES are all that brain surgeon complicated...you think? I've also run a gate valve like your boss with no problems, but am always looking for the best way. And, since you mentioned it, I've been running a ball valve longer than your boss's been running a gate valve...still no problems.
And what's been done in the past may not always be the right answer? Just a thought?
Technology marches on...
Both top end and reliability improve over time for those who dare to question tradition, innovate or make changes to the "accepted" knowledge pool or good-ole-boy racing network.
Thus our posts and discussion. Otherwise crack a cool one and have fun in Hot Boat Hot Spots.
Sure, any valve will work, but what works best for your application? Or your pending engine upgrade? That is the question.
Or you could just do it the way it's always been done in the past, regardless of setup or application or what your boss says works best. In which case you already know the answer so no big deal and all is cool. Move on to calmer waters...
Your choice,
jer--also out!
[This message has been edited by LVjetboy (edited May 28, 2002).]

Costello
05-28-2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by HOSS:
Well Gee Beav! Don`t I get at least a B for the fact that vibrations cause movement and this is after all only water we are talking about controlling. If I were to know that this setup also was to include liquid nitrogen, then gee, I woulda picked a ball over gate.
OK you get a "B". Ball valve will only get you a "C". Globe Valve gets the "A". http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif

LVjetboy
05-28-2002, 08:43 AM
Oh jeez, now I'm down to a C? How about extra credit?

spectras only
05-28-2002, 09:46 AM
LV, thanks for the compliment. I'm done with anything "NEW" [or high tech].I'm working in the field and it's a never ending trials & errors. My state of the art digital progressive toshiba tv just packed it in 6 months after warranty because of some redundant design flaw .It's in a permanent protection mode[ no pic or sound]. My friend owns a shop were they fix all tv's from A-Z and can't find the damn component that caused the failure.You guys beware when you buy these new appliances ,the bastards [toshiba,sony,etc...]dropped their warranty periods to one year only,including plasma tv's.Go figure,who the hell is going to buy these things when you have to buy a hefty extended warranty to cover your ass.Sorry for my rambling but this F....n tv has been down for 5 weeks now .

HBjet
06-03-2002, 01:08 PM
Took the boat out the first time this year with my new pressure regulator. In Needles and the water exit valve all the way open, the boat temp was 135 on plain and at WOT. Off plain, the temp went to, 140 or just below. At the sandbar in Havasu, I closed the water exit valve just a little, say 11-12 degrees (I didn't measure it, but it was 1/4 the way to 45 degrees) and the boat ran at 145 degrees. Anyways, I had no problems, and the temp never jumped up after getting off plain. Maybe because I have consistant water pressure?
HBjet

MikeC
06-03-2002, 02:52 PM
HBJet,
I ran my regulator that is mounted directly to the transome from the inlet. My temp was Up more than I wish, about 160-180. I've turned up the pressure a tad to see if that helps keep it down. It came set at 30psi. I hope I can get it down to your levels soon.
MikeC
Your interior looks Great!

wrightnow
06-03-2002, 03:36 PM
MikeC,
Were going back out this weekend, are you going to make it?

MikeC
06-03-2002, 07:59 PM
Wright Now,
It doesn't look that way right now. I have possibly 2 jobs intenativly scheduled for Sat, and if that falls through, my boss wants to send me to LV for standbye! I need to clean up FlatOutPlaced this week also. I tore up the rug from in between the seats, (oily and old). So now I need to remove all of the glue and make all of that there balsa stuff look pretty. I'll get back to ya later in the week, who knows, maybe I'll lay low and get overlookes! X fingers crossed.
MikeC