PDA

View Full Version : DNE 1000hp motor buildup in HRM



1quickjet
05-07-2002, 06:47 PM
Nice build-up coverage of a 1050hp motor done by Dave Ebbert at DNE Motorsports in this months Hot Rod Magazine (June '02). No nitrous, no blower, pump gas. HBJet posted pics of this motor a while back. In a '21 Daytona that ran some unreal # at the drags. Worth checking out. And finally a reason to read HRM again.

77charger
05-07-2002, 07:13 PM
was an interesting article but did you read the very end 30k for that motor.

MikeF
05-07-2002, 07:33 PM
For as many vendors that were part of the process.....it must have been fun to put that engine together and see the results! Well thought out and assembled!! Suprised it was not more $$$$. Mike

ChetCapoli
05-07-2002, 08:03 PM
30 grand why would ya???Put the blower on top and get the same power more reliably for half the price.
Chet

disco_charger
05-07-2002, 08:09 PM
Interesting article. 30g's is pretty steep imo. It was very impressive, and I'd love to see that Daytona run. I like the single carb with no tunnel ram. Blower would be easier and cheaper, but the cool factor was that this was a natuarally aspirated (as natural as a Dominator can be) motor making 1k horsepower. Hot Rod is starting to come to their senses.
Disco

77charger
05-07-2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by ChetCapoli:
30 grand why would ya???Put the blower on top and get the same power more reliably for half the price.
Chet
that is my opinion too.but if you have the money to make it run on pump gas to be legal for certain race classe then do it.Pretty good though that much hp to run on pump gas.Was some good pics of the whole project too.

Costello
05-07-2002, 08:58 PM
This is what Darin Morgan who does the cylinder heads at Reher Morrison has to say about this engine. I'm sure DNE is a great shop, but Reher Morrison is the real deal.....
Has anyone seen the new HotRod magazine? They have an article on a 555 single four barrel with Dart intake making 1050 horsepower ON PUMP GAS! I cant believe they print this trash. This is a bold face lie. A well tuned 555 with 15.5 to 1 compression and 114 octane fuel that revs 8000rpm with big duration camshaft (which pump gas engines can not use) makes 1050HP. This just proves that they will print ANYTHING!!!!!!!! I hope people are not gullible enough to believe this stuff.

Costello
05-07-2002, 09:08 PM
Another Darin Morgan quote. In case anyone is not aware of his credentials, does Bruce Allen, George Marnell, or Mike Edwards ala NHRA Pro Stock ring a bell? Darin does the cylinder heads at Reher-Morrison and is one of three people selected to develop the new top secret GM DRCE cylinder heads.......
Dynos and flow benches are tools just like dynamite is a tool. In the hands of a professional they are harmless and can accomplish great things. In the hands of an unscrupulous moron they become dangerous. Very dangerous!!
[This message has been edited by Costello (edited May 07, 2002).]

Jetboatguru
05-07-2002, 09:11 PM
I see a flaming coming on

Oldsquirt
05-07-2002, 09:15 PM
Haven't seen the article yet. Is this Marty's engine they are talking about? If so was the 1050 with or w/o the nitrous?

boatnam2
05-07-2002, 09:23 PM
i just dont see were a pro stock motor would make a good boating motor.it might be great in a drag boat but thats it.go out and make a pass and bring it back in.give me a giant cubic inch blower motor blowing low boost anyday.

Costello
05-07-2002, 09:28 PM
Jetboatguru, I am just the bearer of what one of the top 5 engine builders in the country have to say. Let the flaming be directed to Darin at Reher Morrison, who gets as much dyno time with their 555, 565, and 632 cubic inch Super Sportsman packages in a week as most guys get in a year. This is not counting the 18 or so bullets that must be constantly gone through for the three Pro Stock teams running 23 races per year. Trust me, if it could be done, these guys would have been the first ones to do it, as you well know. I'm sure the engine in this Hot Rod write up is making good power on pump gas, but there is a problem somewhere, according to Darin it aint no 1050hp.

Jetboatguru
05-07-2002, 09:28 PM
Good point Oldsquirt. Boatnam you are right, They make great Dragboat motors as your buddy Jeff Martin will tell you but not real good for an enduro. Jeff's hauled ass this last weekend.
[This message has been edited by Jetboatguru (edited May 07, 2002).]

Jetboatguru
05-07-2002, 09:34 PM
I will say this, whatever that thing is making for power, it is rather impressive. Now run along you nay sayer

boatnam2
05-07-2002, 09:40 PM
jbg did jeff win?so how many ponies you think he running on that 500 inch motor.

jim lee
05-07-2002, 09:47 PM
Costello, Can you tell us where you are getting these quotes?
Thanks
-jim lee

Costello
05-07-2002, 09:54 PM
Jim,
Darin is a frequent participant on the www.nitromater.com (http://www.nitromater.com) boards. He has been extremely helpful and informative in the time he has been there, which is quite a while now. Where most Pro Stock teams hold much of their data as a very close guarded secret, Darin and the whole Reher Morrison operation are very open regarding numbers and such. Apparently, they're open when they don't believe the numbers also!! I've had exchanges with Darin in the past and found him to be very pleasant and extremely knowledgable. Here's a direct link to the thread.... http://www.nitromater.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=006853

HBjet
05-07-2002, 10:16 PM
Right On DNE!
I know this motor did what it did, I saw the dyno sheets, and it was dyno'd without NOS. This motor is in a 21' Daytona which can be seen at the NJBA races. You will also find this boat, with the same motor, with full interior running at Lost Lake as an everyday driver. If these other builders want to say it ain't so, fine, but do you think DNE would offer to build you one of it didn't hit the numbers posted? That would be a big $$$$$$$ hit to take with a one man shop. I say, if you have any doubt, call the guy. I have my motor work done by him, and it's top notch, everytime. Yes, you could slap on a blower, turn up the boost and have 1000HP for 15k, but I'm willing to bet you'll have a hell of alot more problems then this motor. I know a guy who spent 20k for less HP, and is having problems......I would think, when you want to make serious power, for a serious machine, why would you settle for the lowest bidder? I look at it this way, you have a guy in a 25' Daytona, 800-900HP Blower motor, idling like most blower motors do, look all bad right? Then another 25' Daytona with a flat engine hatch pulls next to it and they decide to race. After the flat hatch 25' spanks the blown 25' who thinks he cool for having the blower, and the whipping belt sound sees the other 25' owner open then engine hatch exposing a single 4 barrel carb'd motor that just spanked him. Now who is looking cool?
If I have the money, and the boat to put one in, I'm buying...
HBjet
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited May 07, 2002).]

jweeks123
05-08-2002, 12:35 AM
I don't get it!
The engine has all the good parts. Sounds like it was carefully prepared. The dyno shop has a good reputation and HotRod guys watched the tests. The boat hauls ass at the drags and cruises the river on weekends.
Why is someone saying it can't be done? Are they upset 'cause they didn't try to do it first? Did the doubter offer technical reasons why it can't be done? Will this motor take sales away from R-M?
Who else uses the WestTech dyno? Do they get believeable numbers? Is 1.85Hp/cuin an impossible number on pump gas? I wonder if someone will call WestTech for their comments?
jw

Blown509Liberator
05-08-2002, 07:31 AM
/
[This message has been edited by Blown509Liberator (edited May 08, 2002).]

572Daytona
05-08-2002, 07:37 AM
Does anyone know the compression ratio of the DNE motor? What RPM did it make the 1050hp at? The boat certainly has a track record to back it up, I'm not aware of another 21' Daytona jet blown or unblown making similar numbers.
Is the motor really suitable for all purpose use? Can it idle for long periods of time? Does it require valve adjustments every 5 hours? I've also got a single carbed Daytona 21, I guess I'll have to pick up a copy of Hot Rod to get the low down.

Costello
05-08-2002, 07:38 AM
Steve Brule from Westech is a member here, perhaps he'd like to comment. I'm not necessarily saying it isn't so with this engine, but I've followed Reher Morrrison from the Lee Shepard days through the present time. Their engines have dominated Pro Stock for many years, and when the truck class was alive, their 358 was very competitive. Also many many sportsman racers run their package engines with great success. These guys have pioneered some pretty innovative stuff over the years. One must remember that 99% of the technology surrounding naturally aspirated engines comes out of Pro Stock technology. That is the ultimate testing ground. We clearly have a very successful top notch Pro Stock engine builder who thinks it's not real. I'm not trying to stir up crap, or berate anyone, merely reporting a different viewpoint that I stumbled upon. I respect what I know about Westech, and what I have heard about DNE. If everyone can stay calm, this could evelop into an interesting discussion wherein the actual people involved may be willing to share a wealth of knowledge with us the laymen.

disco_charger
05-08-2002, 07:57 AM
The article says that the motor probably runs 11-1 and that because the motor runs at such a cool temp, they can do this on 91 without detonation.The motor builder would not disclose the actual compression ratio... I don't blame him for not telling all. If this is no [B.S.], he's going to be a busy man.
Disco
[Abbreviated "Balony Sandwich" http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif -HB]
[This message has been edited by ***boat (edited May 09, 2002).]

HBjet
05-08-2002, 08:15 AM
I have a question? Can you make a dyno Lie? If so, how do you do that?
Here is the Westech Website.
www.westechperformance.com (http://www.westechperformance.com)
HBjet

1quickjet
05-08-2002, 08:19 AM
Cyclone used Westech recently to dyno his Olds. His numbers sounded correct, although I don't remember them.

jim lee
05-08-2002, 08:31 AM
Thanks for sharing where this came from.
-jim lee

froggystyle
05-08-2002, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Jetboatguru:
I see a flaming coming on
Yeah, I smell smoke...
Numbers don't lie, and this thing is turning big numbers.
On another note... Mike Harlan, the gent who owns Ultra Performance and who is a prior world record holder in NA Jet (I think it is Pro-Gas Jet) ran similar numbers with a tunnel rammed BBC who also had a huge nitrous shot. Words straight from his mouth were... "I have never lost to a blown motor, drags or lost lake" And I know several like him.
BTW, with my last boat, I would have been the jackass with the big, pretty, loud blower motor, and Mike would have been the guy with a back seat and 300 more horsepower smoking my dumb ass by 20-30 mph. I loves me some blower motors, but it takes a lot of nuts to build a bad ass NA job. I'll take the NA from now on.

Jetboatguru
05-08-2002, 08:48 AM
I just got off the phone with Steve Brule from Westech. I am only writing what Steve said to me. I asked him if I could print this and quote him and he said absolutely yes.
First of all, Steve was not aware of the scuttle butt going on about this. I told him what was being said and his response was well Reher Morrison needs to take a look at this thing. The first question I asked him was "did you guys pull this thing on race gas or pump gas?" He said pump gas out of their drums. (76)He said that this motor is the real deal. The manifold was done by Keith Wilson manifolds out of Fla. He also said "Darin Morgan is one of the best cylinder head guys in the business today. On the other hand, he did say "Darin Morgan spends all of his day porting heads. I spend all of my day on the dyno. I don't tell him how to port heads so maybe he should not tell me how to run a dyno." Steve said he is gonna call Darin and discuss this. Brule knows his jetboats and his dyno. I am very curious to find out where this goes. Everything I quoted in here was with the permission of Steve Brule.

Jetboatguru
05-08-2002, 08:55 AM
HBjet, yes you can make dynos lie. I am not saying that Westech did that. I for one know they don't as I have dynoed there on a couple of occasions. Their reputation is tooo strong. There are multiple ways of fudging on the dyno numbers. One is to program in a bogus corrected air.
[This message has been edited by Jetboatguru (edited May 08, 2002).]

Costello
05-08-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by disco_charger:
The article says that the motor probably runs 11-1 and that because the motor runs at such a cool temp, they can do this on 91 without detonation.The motor builder would not disclose the actual compression ratio... I don't blame him for not telling all. If this is no bullshit, he's going to be a busy man.
I don't blame him either if it is true. It's not the 1.8hp per cubic inch that has people saying NO WAY, Reher Morrison is making 2.67hp per cubic inch with the race motors. It is the pump gas part of it that has thrown people for a loop.

HBjet
05-08-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Costello:
Originally posted by disco_charger:
The article says that the motor probably runs 11-1 and that because the motor runs at such a cool temp, they can do this on 91 without detonation.The motor builder would not disclose the actual compression ratio... I don't blame him for not telling all. If this is no bullshit, he's going to be a busy man.
I don't blame him either if it is true. It's not the 1.8hp per cubic inch that has people saying NO WAY, Reher Morrison is making 2.67hp per cubic inch with the race motors. It is the pump gas part of it that has thrown people for a loop.
Costello, it's doing it on pump gas. I talked with Dave at DNE about this project last year, and he didn't know if it coulb be done (well so he told me) but they were sure gonna try. This is unchartted territory, so no wonder everyone says NO, it ain't so. I bet some of these builder are a little pissed they didn't do it first, so there going to say, NO, not so. DNE isn't the type of shop that doesn't deliver. If you doubt it, then don't cry about it when someone spanks you running one of these motors.
HBjet

HavasuDreamin'
05-08-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by boatnam2:
i just dont see were a pro stock motor would make a good boating motor.it might be great in a drag boat but thats it.go out and make a pass and bring it back in.give me a giant cubic inch blower motor blowing low boost anyday.
I agree, if you are not a racer (NJBA, IHBA, etc.) give me a big inch, low boost blower motor. I could be wrong, but with a NA motor running a nasty, nasty cam, I would think it would need valve adjustment regularly (between every pass or two). However, I love the sound those motors make, they sound incredibly angry! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Focking Frown!
[This message has been edited by HavasuDreamin' (edited May 08, 2002).]

JohnATJmmarine
05-08-2002, 11:39 AM
I have delt with Westech and Steve they are stand up guys. That motor hauls ass in a 21ft boat so I give DNE all the credit in the world. Keep up the good work.

Costello
05-08-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by HBjet:
If you doubt it, then don't cry about it when someone spanks you running one of these motors.
HBjet
HbJet, let's get something straight right now. 1 this is a TECH forum. They made this section primarily because of you and your run ins with people. 2.I run a 21' V-Drive daycruiser with a predominatly stock 460ci Chevy. I'm sure this piece would spank me 7 ways to Sunday.

HBjet
05-08-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Costello:
HbJet, let's get something straight right now. 1 this is a TECH forum. They made this section primarily because of you and your run ins with people. 2.I run a 21' V-Drive daycruiser with a predominatly stock 460ci Chevy. I'm sure this piece would spank me 7 ways to Sunday.
Costello, I know this is a tech thread, so I don't know what you are saying. If I was the root of all problems, why am I not booted off instead? As for the motor, I sure hope it can beat a predominatly 460ci motor. I wasn't referring to you when I said that. I was referring to the builders with there big blower motors and NA motors running 15:1 on race fuel making that much and more HP, that's all. No need to get upset. I just think it's funny these other really great builders are saying it isn't so, and not explaining why.
HBjet
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited May 08, 2002).]

RiverDave2
05-08-2002, 02:27 PM
Who installed the "heater?" it's gettin warm in here already... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
There's an expression "Dyno's don't lie." I have no doubt that the motor pulled the 1050hp.. There is a variable over looked though.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif What was in those drums? Tell that guy to take it on down to Arco and pump her full of 91 then run it on the dyno and you will make believers outta all the "other" builders..
RD

Eric
05-08-2002, 02:52 PM
All I've got to say is I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall and listen to the conversation between Steve Brule of Westech and Darin Morgen of R-M.
What was it Darrin said... "This is a bold face lie"
That's a pretty strong statement directed towards the guy that ran the dyno! That is going to be one he** of an interesting conversation. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
The boat is running some awesome numbers. They must be doing something right.

Boater Bill
05-08-2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by RiverDave2:
Who installed the "heater?" it's gettin warm in here already... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
There's an expression "Dyno's don't lie." I have no doubt that the motor pulled the 1050hp.. There is a variable over looked though.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif What was in those drums? Tell that guy to take it on down to Arco and pump her full of 91 then run it on the dyno and you will make believers outta all the "other" builders..
RD
Exactly - thats why I started the thread on pump gas to understand what was meant by 76 gas outta the can for the dyno run. Not knocking/doubting anybody, just trying to get a read on what constitutes "pump" gas.

Bense468
05-08-2002, 02:58 PM
I talked to Dave at the races last weekend and I believe it was done also. River dave does have a point though. They said gas from the drum. Well I know that 76 sells 110 and I believe 114 out of the pump in some places. Very rare but I have seen it. Riverdave I would not run arco in a gas powered scooter. I heard that this Motor runs on "pump gas". In my opinion pump gas is 91. Some might consider 110 out of the pump "pump gas" Either way the motor is pulling some big numbers and his et and mph at the drags prove it for a 21 footer.
[This message has been edited by Bense468 (edited May 08, 2002).]

HBjet
05-08-2002, 03:15 PM
The main objective of racing is to win! The way to win is to increase engine power output. This must be done within the constraints of racing sanctioning body restrictions while building in enough reliability to survive for the duration of the race. Power increases are found through the efficient mechanical use of the energy created by the burning racing gasoline. The key to going fast is consistency, whether you are measuring reaction times or your engine¹s ability to build horsepower. You need to find a specialty racing gasoline manufacturer that can help you in deciding which blend is right for your engine and racing conditions. A specialty blender can provide racers with a more consistent product. This is because their blends are more carefully controlled, consistent, and application oriented, not mass produced. If you elect to use pump gas, you are throwing a fist full of variables into the consistency equation.
Even if you buy your gas from the same pump every weekend you are still liable to get a variety of blends. This is due to seasonal additions of ethers, alcohols and various other ingredients that refiners of pump gas use to meet clean air standards.
Beyond the "modifications" that refiners are making to your pump gas, the Federal Government has mandated the introduction of up to 10% Alcohol and MTBE, or ETBE fuel oxygenators. This is the result of efforts to clean up the air, which we are all for. This is putting the racer¹s and performance enthusiast¹s machinery at risk. These new types of oxygenated pump gasolines are causing engines to run leaner and the alcohol in the gas is a very corrosive component to engines, especially aluminum. Due to the alcohol content, this type of pump gas may cause you to fail the fuel tech standards of your racing organization.
This is from Klotz Racing Gasoline Basics (http://www.klotzlube.com/support/tech_information/racing_gasoline_basics.html)
Do you think when they say Pump Gas they mean 114 octane out of a barrel? They are referring to Mass Produced gasoline as almost everyone does then they use the term Pump Gas
HBjet

RiverDave2
05-08-2002, 03:57 PM
Well... They said that they pumped it out of Barrells... So I guess that answers that question. Unless of course they took the barrells down to a gas station and "pumped" them full of gas. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD

HBjet
05-08-2002, 04:16 PM
Or they have barrels of 91, 100, 104, 110, 114, 116, etc. on hand for dyno purposes. Just because it's in barrel doesn't meen anything, it's the gas inside. The term Pump Gas refers to the Mass Porduced gasoline you would purchase from your local gas station. For Westech Performance, they probably have an Accout with 76, VP, and a few others so they have there gas delivered to them in barrels because I doubt they have a tank in the ground, let alone the volume of customers to require a tank in the ground. Let's not forget, the government measures quantities of gas in barrels, does that mean there talking about race gas, since their using the term barrel?
HRM states it was tested on 91 octane on the cover instead of Pump Gas, probably to avoid people wondering if they consider C16 pump gas if you have to pump it out of a barrel.
HBjet

boatnam2
05-08-2002, 04:56 PM
our refinery will be using ethanol by the end of the year if everything goes right.

ROZ
05-08-2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by boatnam2:
our refinery will be using ethanol by the end of the year if everything goes right.
http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy30.gif
gOOD BYE mtbe

ChetCapoli
05-08-2002, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by HBjet:
This is unchartted territory, so no wonder everyone says NO, it ain't so. I bet some of these builder are a little pissed they didn't do it first, so there going to say, NO, not so. DNE isn't the type of shop that doesn't deliver. If you doubt it, then don't cry about it when someone spanks you running one of these motors.
HBjet [/B]
First of all hb, i thought you didnt know about this motor??? You are such a sandbagger. You really think this is uncharted territory??? I gonna sit tight till i read the article but what RPM does this "lake motor" make that power? Believe me, i'm sure it has to be up there and it needs a heck of alot more than 11:1 compression. I think there is a little more to the story than meets the eye. As far as crying about getting spanked by one of these motors...i dont think so. With that kind of money invested HE SHOULD GO FAST!
FYI, i was involved in building a 704ci with warren johnson heads(10K used right off his own car, had brake lines for water tubes in between the rocker arms to connect the water passages), Spectacular portwork, 3K sheet metal intake and 5K worth of split dominator carbs. Needed 15 to 1 and 7500rpm and alcohol to make a little over 1230hp on the dyno. Maybe DNE could squeeze 1530hp eh?
CHET
[This message has been edited by ChetCapoli (edited May 08, 2002).]

superdave013
05-08-2002, 09:21 PM
I don't think he's running pump gas at the NJBA races. That fuel won't pass the fuel check. HBjet, remember when we went to NJBA the frist time together. That guy got DQed in ski jet for his fuel. He bought his gas at the gas station before the race. Now I think that was total BS but it seems that there is some additive in every day pump gas that trips their lil fuel check deal.
I'm NOT saying it did or didn't make the dyno #, but it's not running of ARCO fuel at the races is all.
[This message has been edited by superdave013 (edited May 08, 2002).]

HBjet
05-08-2002, 09:28 PM
Chet, I didn't know the specs of this motor until now. I left my copy of the mag at work, but I believe 6600rpm is where the motor hit 1051HP. If I'm wrong, sorry, I'll correct it tomorrow. At 5300 (or it might be 5800) it make like 880 something foot pounds of torque. The compression ratio wasn't reveled in the mag, or even to me, some things need to be kept secret to stay on top, right? I just don't understand how people think a one man shop would dig there own grave with these claims if it couldn't back it up? Can someone please explain that to me? If you have a doubt, call the guy and talk to him, better yet, call Westech Performance, and ask them, why would they lie, they have nothing to loose or gain out of this motor. I know most people don't believe it because it hasn't been done, fine. Just wait and see as more and more proof comes out, then they will be retracting there statments. Chet, I just think you don't believe it because you don't like me, or any of the shops I deal with, so not matter what, your going to disagree, and there is nothing I can do to change that. To bad you think that way. 1530hp is alot, but when there fogging 400hp into this thing, it should be around 1450hp, close! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Chet, call Westech and tell us what they say, they have an 800 number I believe.
HBjet
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited May 08, 2002).]

HBjet
05-08-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
I don't think he's running pump gas at the NJBA races. That fuel won't pass the fuel check. HBjet, remember when we went to NJBA the frist time together. That guy got DQed in ski jet for his fuel. He bought his gas at the gas station before the race. Now I think that was total BS but it seems that there is some additive in every day pump gas that trips their lil fuel check deal.
I'm NOT saying it did or didn't make the dyno #, but it's not running of ARCO fuel at the races is all.
Yeah, I remember that, and yes, that does suck. I don't know what there running at the races. I'll ask then next time I see them. Dave, I need to come by your place and cut some metal. email me and let me know what your schedule is like next weekend. Thanks.
HBjet

superdave013
05-08-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by HBjet:
Yeah, I remember that, and yes, that does suck. I don't know what there running at the races. I'll ask then next time I see them. Dave, I need to come by your place and cut some metal. email me and let me know what your schedule is like next weekend. Thanks.
HBjet
I will be in Big Bear this weekend racing my DH bike. Next week and weekend I'll be around. Maybe you could help me put the trim on my boat at the same time.

HBjet
05-08-2002, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
I will be in Big Bear this weekend racing my DH bike. Next week and weekend I'll be around. Maybe you could help me put the trim on my boat at the same time.
No problem! I don't mind screwing up on your boat to do it right on mine when the time comes~! haha! Sure, next weekend.
HBjet

bruleracer
05-09-2002, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by RiverDave2:
Who installed the "heater?" it's gettin warm in here already... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
There's an expression "Dyno's don't lie." I have no doubt that the motor pulled the 1050hp.. There is a variable over looked though.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif What was in those drums? Tell that guy to take it on down to Arco and pump her full of 91 then run it on the dyno and you will make believers outta all the "other" builders..
RD

bruleracer
05-09-2002, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by RiverDave2:
Who installed the "heater?" it's gettin warm in here already... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
There's an expression "Dyno's don't lie." I have no doubt that the motor pulled the 1050hp.. There is a variable over looked though.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif What was in those drums? Tell that guy to take it on down to Arco and pump her full of 91 then run it on the dyno and you will make believers outta all the "other" builders..
RD
Lee from 76 picks up our drums, takes them to the circle k, fills them up and returns them. I assure you, it ran on 91.

greg shoemaker
05-09-2002, 05:25 AM
You put a guy like DAVE who I've work with on a few projects, Jack at MPD , anEliminator 21 you have a very good combination of people and product. The bottom line is the boat hauls ass and it would take every bit of that kind of power to acheive those kinds of numbers without Nos. GREG

superdave013
05-09-2002, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by greg shoemaker:
You put a guy like DAVE who I've work with on a few projects, Jack at MPD , anEliminator 21 you have a very good combination of people and product. The bottom line is the boat hauls ass and it would take every bit of that kind of power to acheive those kinds of numbers without Nos. GREG
Greg, So he has all those nozzels on his engine for weight savings? That bottle must be one of those new sub woffers that you see in the Honda cars too.
I thought he was running UBFJ but I could be wrong about that.
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Gearhead_Garage/Motors_and_Drives/MSmotor4.JPG
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Gearhead_Garage/Motors_and_Drives/MSmotor3.JPG

Darin Morgan
05-09-2002, 05:45 AM
The engine Westech built is a beautiful piece of machinery built from the finest parts money can buy and assembled by competent and highly skilled engine builders. There Components are of the highest quality and capable of making the horsepower they said it did. I have no doubt what so ever that the dyno needle read 1050hp. I have no doubt that the Torque needle read 880+FT/LBS. To believe this is possible on "PUMP" gas is ludicrous. Now my interpretation of pump gas is,, " Fuel from the pump at the corner gas station with an Octane rating R+M/2 of 91-92". The Motor Octane rating of these fuels is NOT capable of withstanding those cylinder pressures and to believe so is pure ignorance of the highest order. I could say that we run our Pro Stock engines on pump gas because I go back to the barrel and pump it out myself.
I guess this all comes down to what your definition of "PUMP GAS" is?
--A rebuttal as to my job description---
I spend 1/4 of my time in the grinding room.
1/4 of my time designing and perfecting new cylinder heads and induction components.
The rest of my time is spent on the dyno tuning these components.
With the advent of 3D CAD design and CNC machines it is no longer necessary for me to be in the grinding room all day.

bruleracer
05-09-2002, 05:49 AM
I just now have had a chance to review the postings, let me first say I question the fact Darren even made those comments.I met him at the Superflow engine conferance last year and he was a complete gentleman. I would also say,we spend a great deal of time and effort making sure our equipment is maintained and calibrated correctly.We test every day and have had the opportunity to do back to back tests on the same engine that was run on steve schmidts dyno, (within 6 hp) at 1250 hp, Bill mitchells dyno (within 2hp) at 650HP. Our numbers were accurate.
Now on to the 91 oct subject, our fuel is suplied by Union 76. They come to our shop, pick up the drums for 91 (the race gas is deliverd by a 76 dist)and take them to the closest circle K, fill them, and bring them back.I assure you it was 91 oct I put in the tank when we tested the engine for DNE.
They didn't even have any fuel with them when the motor arrived. I had never seen the engine before that day. It did make well over a 1000hp and it did do it on 91oct.and those are the two things I'm sure about.
steve brule

Costello
05-09-2002, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by greg shoemaker:
[b]You put a guy like DAVE who I've work with on a few projects, Jack at MPD , anEliminator 21 you have a very good combination of people and product. The bottom line is the boat hauls ass and it would take every bit of that kind of power to acheive those kinds of numbers without Nos. GREG
Originally posted by superdave013:Greg, So he has all those nozzels on his engine for weight savings? That bottle must be one of those new sub woffers that you see in the Honda cars too.
I thought he was running UBFJ but I could be wrong about that.
I have not been to NJBA myself this year, but I am quite sure they are squeezing it at the races. That means with even a modest 250 shot, it would be up around 1300hp. Another question for the jet guys. I know this thing is a 21' Daytona. Surely it's a little heavier than a 19. Maybe what 200 lbs? My question is once you get an air entrapment style tunnel back on the normal few feet of wetted surface, and the boat carrying the nose, does the extra weight of the larger boat really come into play as far as scrubbing e.t.?
[This message has been edited by Costello (edited May 09, 2002).]

Blown509Liberator
05-09-2002, 07:00 AM
Thing about that. Granted your not pushing that weight threw the water you still have to push it threw the air.
MikeW

Costello
05-09-2002, 07:19 AM
Ron The Kid has posted twice at www.nitromater.com (http://www.nitromater.com) that he will purchase one of Dave's DNE engines if this engine will do it on HIS dyno. It shouldn't be too difficult to put together as Ron is only 25 minutes up the road from DNE in Devore, and about 15 minutes north of Bruleracer's shop. The technical side of building engines of this caliber is so far removed from myself, that I am merely an interested bystander to learn what I can from professionals such as these like Steve, Dave, Darin, Ron etc.

RiverDave2
05-09-2002, 08:00 AM
I'm very pleased at the fact that things are staying moderately "calm" in here. I'm also enjoying reading the experts share there opinions on the board as well. Perhaps to alleviate any doubt we could all hook up one weekend and watch the dyno make a pull?
I'll even bring the 91 octane fuel STRAIGHT from Circle K with Costello as the witness.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
RD

HBjet
05-09-2002, 08:30 AM
SuperDave013, they run the NOS when racing, but dyno'd the motor without. Just like Westech is saying, NO NOS, and on 91 octane. In the mag, it states how they run the motor with a 400HP fogger system for racing.
HBjet

058
05-09-2002, 08:47 AM
I can attest to how this boat runs, I saw it at the NJBA races in March and it hauls ass, I was helping out a friend with his 21' Daytona and these fellows were pitted just a couple of spaces from us. I can't say one way or another how much power this engine makes but to run 128 in a 21' jetboat is quite a feat.
[This message has been edited by 058 (edited May 09, 2002).]

Eric
05-09-2002, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by RiverDave2:
I'm very pleased at the fact that things are staying moderately "calm" in here. I'm also enjoying reading the experts share there opinions on the board as well. Perhaps to alleviate any doubt we could all hook up one weekend and watch the dyno make a pull?
I'll even bring the 91 octane fuel STRAIGHT from Circle K with Costello as the witness.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
RD
I'd run back and forth to the circle K on foot with a couple of 5 gallon cans if I could watch that thing on a dyno pull. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif

jweeks123
05-09-2002, 09:02 AM
From what I've seen, the boat runs two different classes at NJBA. In the 9 sec bracket where N2O is NOT allowed, it runs about 9.30/114 (approx). In the Unblownfuel class it does about 8.30/127 (approx). When you talk to other 21 Daytona owners, they seem to agree that it would take 1000hp to get those numbers without n2o.
jw

HavasuDreamin'
05-09-2002, 09:08 AM
So he must kick some serious a** down at lost lake! That boat is a sleeper with the interior in it (unless of course you know the boat). http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

superdave013
05-09-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by HBjet:
SuperDave013, they run the NOS when racing, but dyno'd the motor without. Just like Westech is saying, NO NOS, and on 91 octane. In the mag, it states how they run the motor with a 400HP fogger system for racing.
HBjet
Just think how fast it would be in a Flat http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

Jetboatguru
05-09-2002, 09:29 AM
Atta baby Super Dave!!!!!!!
Representin!!!!!!!!

HBjet
05-09-2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by superdave013:
Just think how fast it would be in a Flat http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Or a Schiada http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
The boat does haul ass. I was talking to the owner last year, when they had the 850HP motor in it, and it ran 104mph without NOS and 4 people on board. I asked him if he ever went to Parker, and he takes his boat there too. SO he uses his boat, doesn't anyone notice the running lights? How many, if any drag boats do you see with running lights, let alone 21' that go beyand 100mph on pump gas? Anyways, this is an interesting thread!
HBjet

Jetboatguru
05-09-2002, 09:58 AM
We have running lights on the 505. They stick on with those suction thingys. I use a flashlight for the Cole.

kojac
05-09-2002, 01:50 PM
I talked to Dave at DNE prior to the article in hot rod magazine regarding the the 565 cubic inch motor.
He stated to me that the motor ran on 91 octane. He built the motor for a boat customer that wanted to upgrade his 850+ horsepower motor so he would not have to use the bottle.
The customer wanted to go racing and be able to use the jetboat to pull skiers and cruise the waters without typical raceboat problems and maintanance.
He said that the motor was above 10-1 compression and the cam was above 800lift but he compensated for the cams high lift with good valvesprings. Not bought at comp cams or crane.
He declined to give specific information due to keeping his combinations a secret as long as possible. {understandable}.
You can talk to him at length. He seemed proud of his accomplishment.
He said the pump work was performed at the shop next door. I forget the name.
He believed the impellar was a "b" and he spun the motor 6400 rpms.{It don"t equate with with a 1050horsepower motor that Pulls up to 6600rpms to me but it seems possible if the pump and intake were really loaded. I'M Not a pump guru}.
Any way The proof is in the pudding. The boat purportedly runs 110 in the quarter without the bottle. Of course he still has the bottle, enough is never enough.
I congratulate him on his accomplishment. It is the motor we all wish we could have.
Kojac.

77charger
05-09-2002, 04:33 PM
One thing i noticed on the article were the dished pistons.The comp is believed to be around 11-1.IMO with dished pistons and smaller combustion chambers,and very cool water temp you can get away with more compression.Domes and flat tops are less likely to get away with it.Curious to see the cam specs on that because you do need compression to make hp.and i to think it is at least 10.5 -1 but would likely bet on 11-1.I have seen daves shop and everything there is very profesional and think anything can be done it all comes down to how much $$$$you want to spend.

bp
05-10-2002, 09:41 PM
i've never posted here before, so we'll see how this works.
i was at the westech peformance group shop the day marty's engine was dynoed. i watched, as did steve magnante, as steve brule poured the 91 octane into the tank that fueled the engine for all the pulls. when steve ran the engine on the dyno, i was standing behind marty, and about 5' away from dave. there were numerous pulls made that day.
the bottom line was that this engine made over 1000hp when it was above 6000rpm. every time. all the time. there were no nos lines connected to the engine that day - if you look at the pics in the article, you'll see that. they were not connected because they weren't used at the dyno. this was solely a naturally aspirated, pump gas test.
the bottom line in all this is that the morgan poster is not defaming DNE. Dave had nothing to do with the dyno, other than place the engine there. the morgan poster is claiming fraud and deceipt on the part of the westech performance group, which is ludicrous. steve and john dyno engines every day, for hotrod, carcraft, and numerous other mags. they have no benefit in messing around with the dyno just for one article. stupid. it's amazing to think that someone representing reher morrison would go out on an internet message board and claim that westech is lying, and cheating. just amazing.
something to keep in mind is that we cannot run nos in the brackets at njba. bottles must be removed before going in the water. marty runs 120's in the brackets - no nos. in ubfj in march, the boat ran 134 on nos. after all that, marty throws the other seats in the boat and heads to the river to just run the dogdoo out of it.
the fuel test they peform is a type of conductivity test. it's described in the njba rule book. pump gas doesn't survive this test, due to all it's added attractions.
dave ebbert knows what he's doing. there are plenty of his engines at each race in bakersfield testifying to that. including my 10second bracket winner last weekend.

Johnwithjm
05-10-2002, 09:58 PM
BP you are right on the money. Martys boat runs very hard and for a 21ft jet boat to run those kind of numbers is a great feet. Dave builds quality stuff. Congrats on your win also.

jweeks123
05-10-2002, 10:48 PM
Darin Morgan has an issue ("To believe this is possible on "PUMP" gas is ludicrous.") that he feels strongly about ("I cant believe they print this trash.""This is a bold face lie.") and he has brought it to the court of public opinion (Internet). He offers evidence to support his case ("The Motor Octane rating of these fuels is NOT capable of withstanding those cylinder pressures and to believe so is pure ignorance of the highest order.")
But wait a minute, that's not evidence. It's just a statement of what he believes. He should support his argument with facts.
What are the cylinder pressures in this case? What cylinder pressures can 91-92 octane gas withstand? And under what conditions? He should site engineering texts or testimonials from acknowledged experts (not other employees of his company). I would be happy to believe his hypothesis ("To believe this is possible on "PUMP" gas is ludicrous.") if he can support it with sound scientific information. Until then, his statements are just more random rants from the Net.
jw

bp
05-11-2002, 08:51 AM
thanks again john. we'll have to hang out on the rope again next month http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
jw, that was exactly my point. the only people this fellow is slandering are steve brule and john baechtel, two highly respected professionals. it was, in essence, an "independent test" of the engine's capability. westech is not affilliated with any one builder or engine supplier.
whether or not someone disbelieves isn't the issue. it's the fact that a so-called respected engine builder? goes out on the internet and slanders people like steve and john. with all the myriad engines they dyno for magazines, what would westech have to gain by falsifying their dyno results for one article? if someone has any doubt about this engine, and they don't want to call DNE, they can call westech (909)685-4767, but then steve already said what it did, didn't he?

565edge
07-11-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Costello:
This is what Darin Morgan who does the cylinder heads at Reher Morrison has to say about this engine. I'm sure DNE is a great shop, but Reher Morrison is the real deal.....
Has anyone seen the new HotRod magazine? They have an article on a 555 single four barrel with Dart intake making 1050 horsepower ON PUMP GAS! I cant believe they print this trash. This is a bold face lie. A well tuned 555 with 15.5 to 1 compression and 114 octane fuel that revs 8000rpm with big duration camshaft (which pump gas engines can not use) makes 1050HP. This just proves that they will print ANYTHING!!!!!!!! I hope people are not gullible enough to believe this stuff.
Hbjet-did you forget about this qoute!I've spent alot of money and have talked to a lot of people about these motors,you need big compression,big roller cam,and pro-stock heads on high octane fuel,

canuck1
07-11-2002, 07:25 PM
So 565 what will a pro stock motor do with 11 - 1 comp? your the expert let us know.
Ask the nascar guys what they can do with 12-1 comp with 200 less inches

565edge
07-11-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by canuck1:
So 565 what will a pro stock motor do with 11 - 1 comp? your the expert let us know.
Ask the nascar guys what they can do with 12-1 comp with 200 less inches
Ask the nascar guys what gas they use.

canuck1
07-11-2002, 08:39 PM
depends which series

cyclone
07-12-2002, 07:57 AM
Steve Brule did dyno and tune my motor at Westech and the fuel coming out of the drum was pump gas, not race fuel. He did not fudge any numbers, did not change any parameters regarding the programming of the dyno and you can all see the evidence in an upcoming issue of Popular Hot Rodding Magazine. I dont believe he would change his ways for anyone, let alone have his credibility take a hit for anyone. Steve's a stand up guy and rather than bitch about a remarkeable motor, why not just give credit where credit is due?

coolchange
07-12-2002, 08:45 AM
I have a question since there seem to be a lot of in the know dyno guru's here. What would the numbers translate to if you took the motor right off a computer dyno and ran it on an "oldschool" water brake?

058
07-12-2002, 11:18 AM
Or better yet.... an Eddy current dyno? Would the numbers be the same as the other two dynos?