Drive Questions.. B-Max vs. Merc XR

[Mardonzi]

OK,, well, the prognosis is in and both of the drives on my Fountain are trashed (I hit a submerged log over T-giving on Powell).
The issue at hand is deciding which way to go. The boat had B-max uppers with XR Lowers running Merc 600 SC's. The guy who I bought the boat from said he had gone through a couple of XR's, which is why he upgraded.
Here are my options
Option #1- Replace with the same set up. It's pricey, but if the insurance company doesn't balk at the cost, it's viable.
Option #2- Go with XR's. With the savings, I could actually buy a spare drive for when I break the next one.
Option #3- Collect the insurance money, Take the motors out, sell them, drag the boat to Lake Piru, sink it, and solicit donations.
Decisions, decisions.....:idea:

[Froggystyle]

OK,, well, the prognosis is in and both of the drives on my Fountain are trashed (I hit a submerged log over T-giving on Powell).
The issue at hand is deciding which way to go. The boat had B-max uppers with XR Lowers running Merc 600 SC's. The guy who I bought the boat from said he had gone through a couple of XR's, which is why he upgraded.
Here are my options
Option #1- Replace with the same set up. It's pricey, but if the insurance company doesn't balk at the cost, it's viable.
Option #2- Go with XR's. With the savings, I could actually buy a spare drive for when I break the next one.
Option #3- Collect the insurance money, Take the motors out, sell them, drag the boat to Lake Piru, sink it, and solicit donations.
Decisions, decisions.....:idea:
I would steer clear of #3... Magic34 is getting that underwater video system and will be able to punch your card on that one... :D

[boatnam2]

sorry about the log i mean logs i think it was the gravy:D

[DMOORE]

If the insurance is going to pay for B-max's, go with them. They are stronger, and on a big boat with all the extra weight, it will make a difference. BTW sorry to hear about about the drives.
Darrell.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

What about Max Machine Works drives?

[Jordy]

Or you could go with option #4 and have the fat and skinny guys bolt a pair of 6's on the back. I believe that even submerged logs are afraid of 6 drives. :D :D :D

[DMOORE]

Or you could go with option #4 and have the fat and skinny guys bolt a pair of 6's on the back. I believe that even submerged logs are afraid of 6 drives. :D :D :D
Total re-rig? That will get expensive.
Darrell.

[Mardonzi]

Or you could go with option #4 and have the fat and skinny guys bolt a pair of 6's on the back. I believe that even submerged logs are afraid of 6 drives. :D :D :D
Only problem with that is then I'd have to get around the fat guy, and he's sick and contagious....
Weren't you supposed to call me yesterday afternoon???

[BadKachina]

Konrads!:idea: :D
http://www.konradmarine.com/index.html

[Mardonzi]

Konrads!:idea: :D
http://www.konradmarine.com/index.html
And what is Jim giving you for a commission on that sale??? :D :D

[Chico&Zeus]

Arneson ASD6 conversion.......
http://www.arneson-industries.com/products/bravoConversion/DSC02541[1].jpg

[Mardonzi]

Arneson ASD6 conversion.......
http://www.arneson-industries.com/products/bravoConversion/DSC02541[1].jpg
Are those drives or snow makers???

[Jordy]

Weren't you supposed to call me yesterday afternoon???
Got caught up with family crap. Don't worry, I'm not charging you much over 37% interest. :D :D :D

[Boatlesss]

Konrads!:idea: :D
http://www.konradmarine.com/index.html
Yea, 28K each and 10 mph slower than the Bravos..
Stick with the Bmax.

[don johnson]

OK,, well, the prognosis is in and both of the drives on my Fountain are trashed (I hit a submerged log over T-giving on Powell).
The issue at hand is deciding which way to go. The boat had B-max uppers with XR Lowers running Merc 600 SC's. The guy who I bought the boat from said he had gone through a couple of XR's, which is why he upgraded.
Here are my options
Option #1- Replace with the same set up. It's pricey, but if the insurance company doesn't balk at the cost, it's viable.
Option #2- Go with XR's. With the savings, I could actually buy a spare drive for when I break the next one.
Option #3- Collect the insurance money, Take the motors out, sell them, drag the boat to Lake Piru, sink it, and solicit donations.
Decisions, decisions.....:idea:
I have B Max's on my boat, they work OK considering the HP I throw at them.... Since you are running conservative HP (600) I would put in Teague or Max Machine Uppers with Imco lowers and call it done. You will also pick up at least 5 MPH over the B Max's due to the huge upper gear in the B Max.

[BadKachina]

Yea, 28K each and 10 mph slower than the Bravos..
Stick with the Bmax.
Enough of the B.S. bickering. Especially if both parties admit they are not connected to anything other than the beer in their hands.
Real questions for wandering minds:
What is the power loss through a #6 Merc? Merc claims less loss than a Bravo???
(As for breaking a #6, it happens way more often than you think, last week at the SBI race Fountain, Fountain Yachts blew a SSM#6 and lost the lead of the race on the last lap)
What is the power loss through a Bravo? Merc claims 39 hp for a stock B1, not an XR.
What is the power loss through a IMCO SC? IMCO 1000?
What is the power loss through a Max Machine Worx? What ever version?
What is the power loss through a BMax?
Finally, what is the power loss through an Arneson? The one that seems to live even with 900 or more hp.
Now even a more complexing question:
What is the speed comparison between the drives??
RUMORS: A BMAX is about 10 mph slower than a B1. A IMCO 1000 is about 10+ mph slower than a B1, etc....
Any input?
So your saying a Konrad will loose 20 mph over a stock B1? That seems excessive. Here's my thoughts on the old B-max's. Besides the upper gears, all the other parts are standard XR parts. So they seem to have failures either in the vertical shaft or the lower unit. With that being said, I've seen plenty of XR's loose the gears in the upper without damaging the rest of the drive.
The new B-Max Ht with the Crescent lower seems to be a good alternative. Relatively priced it's about half the price of the Konrad conversion and will come with a full one year warranty. This will be our recommendation and more than likely the route taken.
Max will have zero warranty. Imco will have zero warranty. Konrad has a warranty, not sure if it's one year or two. The Ace conversion also includes extension boxes with trannies in them and they should be pretty much indestructible for a 35 Fountain with 600hp per side. I would beg to differ that the Konrad's on boxes would be any slower than the B-Max's. If B-max was still selling an upper with a Merc Xr lower than he would probably be just as well off putting an XR, Teague or Max-Machine drive on it IMO.
This is all pretty much guess work at this point, since there are no real studies about longevity or speed loss of any of these drives. The general consensus is however that the Imco 4x4 or 1000, the B-Max, #6, and the Konrad, are all stronger but power robbing to some degree. As for a drive that isn't internally shifted, I would say that the Konrad has the best price. For internally shifted drives, the B-Max looks to be the best option.
Oh, and 28k includes everything for the Konrad, gimbals, steering, drives, extension boxes and all parts needed.

[Mardonzi]

I think I need Whackers instead.......At least thats what Jordy says :D :D

[don johnson]

So your saying a Konrad will loose 20 mph over a stock B1? That seems excessive. Here's my thoughts on the old B-max's. Besides the upper gears, all the other parts are standard XR parts. So they seem to have failures either in the vertical shaft or the lower unit. With that being said, I've seen plenty of XR's loose the gears in the upper without damaging the rest of the drive.
The new B-Max Ht with the Crescent lower seems to be a good alternative. Relatively priced it's about half the price of the Konrad conversion and will come with a full one year warranty. This will be our recommendation and more than likely the route taken.
Max will have zero warranty. Imco will have zero warranty. Konrad has a warranty, not sure if it's one year or two. The Ace conversion also includes extension boxes with trannies in them and they should be pretty much indestructible for a 35 Fountain with 600hp per side. I would beg to differ that the Konrad's on boxes would be any slower than the B-Max's. If B-max was still selling an upper with a Merc Xr lower than he would probably be just as well off putting an XR, Teague or Max-Machine drive on it IMO.
This is all pretty much guess work at this point, since there are no real studies about longevity or speed loss of any of these drives. The general consensus is however that the Imco 4x4 or 1000, the B-Max, #6, and the Konrad, are all stronger but power robbing to some degree. As for a drive that isn't internally shifted, I would say that the Konrad has the best price. For internally shifted drives, the B-Max looks to be the best option.
Oh, and 28k includes everything for the Konrad, gimbals, steering, drives, extension boxes and all parts needed.
The B Max is a good drive and trust me I should now as I am putting 1,100 HP to each drive. However in my opinion the Imco lower is way better. I have tried both the B Max and Imco and the B Max had some real issues both internally and hydrodynamically. When I switched from the B Max Crescent lowers to Imco's it made all the difference in the world, prop blowout during planning and high speed stopped and the boat turned WAY better with the Imco. I also stopped losing carrier bearings as the Imco carrier unit is superior.....
The other down side to B Max is getting replacement parts from Dean is an absolute nightmare!
I will say again, on your boat I would go with Teague or Max upper with Imco lowers....

[BajaMike]

OK,, well, the prognosis is in and both of the drives on my Fountain are trashed (I hit a submerged log over T-giving on Powell).
The issue at hand is deciding which way to go. The boat had B-max uppers with XR Lowers running Merc 600 SC's. The guy who I bought the boat from said he had gone through a couple of XR's, which is why he upgraded.
Here are my options
Option #1- Replace with the same set up. It's pricey, but if the insurance company doesn't balk at the cost, it's viable.
Option #2- Go with XR's. With the savings, I could actually buy a spare drive for when I break the next one.
Option #3- Collect the insurance money, Take the motors out, sell them, drag the boat to Lake Piru, sink it, and solicit donations.
Decisions, decisions.....:idea:
Is your insurance really going to pay for the drives?
That's good insurance, I've heard of a lot of them denying those claims.
:idea:

[BadKachina]

The B Max is a good drive and trust me I should now as I am putting 1,100 HP to each drive. However in my opinion the Imco lower is way better. I have tried both the B Max and Imco and the B Max had some real issues both internally and hydrodynamically. When I switched from the B Max Crescent lowers to Imco's it made all the difference in the world, prop blowout during planning and high speed stopped and the boat turned WAY better with the Imco. I also stopped losing carrier bearings as the Imco carrier unit is superior.....
The other down side to B Max is getting replacement parts from Dean is an absolute nightmare!
I will say again, on your boat I would go with Teague or Max upper with Imco lowers....
Good info to know. Imco seems to have the superior hydronamic lower in most cases, with xr's or anything else for that matter. I think the only draw back in this case is that B-Max will warranty the HT drives as a complete unit. Maybe he doesn't need a warranty? Maybe it's good feeling to know you have one when you spend this kind of coin. He can always sell the lowers next season and put Imco cases on.
Dean has been pretty decent with me on turn around time. I've heard others complain, my biggest complaint it that they are heavy as hell to work on.

[BadKachina]

Johnson, what are you running for gear oil in your drives? I sell the Amsoil stuff and recommend it for all hp stuff that comes through the shop.

[BIGJOEDUCKSLAYER]

MARDONZI the arnesons are your best choice, you wont break one of them.
BIG JOE SSMF

[TBONE1904]

The B Max is a good drive and trust me I should now as I am putting 1,100 HP to each drive. However in my opinion the Imco lower is way better. I have tried both the B Max and Imco and the B Max had some real issues both internally and hydrodynamically. When I switched from the B Max Crescent lowers to Imco's it made all the difference in the world, prop blowout during planning and high speed stopped and the boat turned WAY better with the Imco. I also stopped losing carrier bearings as the Imco carrier unit is superior.....
The other down side to B Max is getting replacement parts from Dean is an absolute nightmare!
I will say again, on your boat I would go with Teague or Max upper with Imco lowers....
Don is the man.....He has a quicker street car than my race door car, and his boat power train combination is twice if not more than my dragster combination. He knows horsepower, drives, and fast boats period! I would listen to him.

[don johnson]

Johnson, what are you running for gear oil in your drives? I sell the Amsoil stuff and recommend it for all hp stuff that comes through the shop.
Red Line anti shock synthetic.

[Boatlesss]

So your saying a Konrad will loose 20 mph over a stock B1?
Max will have zero warranty. Imco will have zero warranty. Konrad has a warranty, not sure if it's one year or two. The Ace conversion also includes extension boxes with trannies in them and they should be pretty much indestructible for a 35 Fountain with 600hp per side. I would beg to differ that the Konrad's on boxes would be any slower than the B-Max's. If B-max was still selling an upper with a Merc Xr lower than he would probably be just as well off putting an XR, Teague or Max-Machine drive on it IMO.
This is all pretty much guess work at this point, since there are no real studies about longevity or speed loss of any of these drives. The general consensus is however that the Imco 4x4 or 1000, the B-Max, #6, and the Konrad, are all stronger but power robbing to some degree. As for a drive that isn't internally shifted, I would say that the Konrad has the best price. For internally shifted drives, the B-Max looks to be the best option.
Oh, and 28k includes everything for the Konrad, gimbals, steering, drives, extension boxes and all parts needed.
Notice I said 10 mph slower than a Bravo.
Konrads, according to Velocity and others are about 10 mph slower than a Bravo. No one has claimed they went faster with the Konrad.
If 28K a side seems like a good deal, then there are alternatives that are faster and less expensive that should be considered. IMCO debuted their new SCX yesterday, Arneson has a drive, MAX Machine Works, and lets not forget that Ilmore is coming out with a drive unit. BMax seems to work also. All less $ than the Konrad. At that price point a used set of #6 Merc's is an option.
As far as warranty. Konrad has not been standing behind their warranties on OSO. I think IMCO said they will have a warranty on their new SCX and Arnesin has a warranty of one year. BMax has a warranty also.
The boat would have to be completely re-rigged for a Konrad. Engines move 3 inches forward and such.
More $ and more work = slower speeds. Not a good idea.

[Mardonzi]

Notice I said 10 mph slower than a Bravo.
Konrads, according to Velocity and others are about 10 mph slower than a Bravo. No one has claimed they went faster with the Konrad.
If 28K a side seems like a good deal, then there are alternatives that are faster and less expensive that should be considered. IMCO debuted their new SCX yesterday, Arneson has a drive, MAX Machine Works, and lets not forget that Ilmore is coming out with a drive unit. BMax seems to work also. All less $ than the Konrad. At that price point a used set of #6 Merc's is an option.
As far as warranty. Konrad has not been standing behind their warranties on OSO. I think IMCO said they will have a warranty on their new SCX and Arnesin has a warranty of one year. BMax has a warranty also.
The boat would have to be completely re-rigged for a Konrad. Engines move 3 inches forward and such.
More $ and more work = slower speeds. Not a good idea.
We pretty much eliminated Konrad from the picture when we discovered the cost vs. value ratio was somewhat skewed.

[BadKachina]

Notice I said 10 mph slower than a Bravo.
Konrad's, according to Velocity and others are about 10 mph slower than a Bravo. No one has claimed they went faster with the Konrad.
If 28K a side seems like a good deal, then there are alternatives that are faster and less expensive that should be considered. IMCO debuted their new SCX yesterday, Arneson has a drive, MAX Machine Works, and lets not forget that Ilmore is coming out with a drive unit. BMax seems to work also. All less $ than the Konrad. At that price point a used set of #6 Merc's is an option.
As far as warranty. Konrad has not been standing behind their warranties on OSO. I think IMCO said they will have a warranty on their new SCX and Arnesin has a warranty of one year. BMax has a warranty also.
The boat would have to be completely re-rigged for a Konrad. Engines move 3 inches forward and such.
More $ and more work = slower speeds. Not a good idea.
28k is a good value when you factor gimbals, extension boxes, steering components, transmissions, and drives. With the Ace package you don't move the motors. With the 540's you do. Price out a new Imco, with extension boxes, and steering and see what you come up with. The Imco 1000 retails in the upper 30's. A number six is double that and that you do have to move the motors forward for it. Even a used number six, needs gimbals, and steering plus trannies and moving the motors forward. So for a non shifting drive (shifting in the tranny)with or without a warranty what drive is priced better? I'm a member of OSO, so link me the threads about warranty issues. I'd like to read them. The more info you can learn form others the better. You seem knowledgeable and I appreciate the ideas, and the info.
As far as warranty goes, Konrad didn't warranty the pre HT stuff except the upper. Merc and any other lower manufacturer (Imco, Max-Machine, Teague)won't warranty the lower. So now that B-Max is offering one year for complete drive with the Crescent lower, it's a good option. I have no doubt that Max-Machine makes some good drives, but no warranty is no warranty. Imco has never stood behind any of their products. Do a search on any performance boating site and see how well their customer service has done. Do they make good parts? Yes, their steering components, fuel switches, fuel tanks, etc. are all top of the line but try and send one back to get fixed and see what the outcome is.
Arnesons our as stout as they come, do they work well on all hulls? Not enough boats come rigged with them to know. They are supposed to be a handful to dock use and in close quarters. They also have a huge unprotected prop hanging off the back for your swimmers. I think they are best left on race boats, preferably cats rigged from the factory specifically for those drives. Whats the price on a conversion anyhow? I imagine you have to mount a transmission so you would have to re-rig the boat and move the motors forward, and probably set the motors at a specific height for the correct x-dim, that would include a new hatch. Now your talking a re-rigging the motors, hatches, and more than likely re-doing the transom. Not even close to the price of bolting on the Ace package no matter what the price of the Arneson is.
Ilmor? Imco SCX? Where are they? How much hp do they handle? Are they a direct bolt on? How much do they cost? Warranty?

[Chico&Zeus]

Arnesons our as stout as they come, do they work well on all hulls? Not enough boats come rigged with them to know. They are supposed to be a handful to dock use and in close quarters. They also have a huge unprotected prop hanging off the back for your swimmers. I think they are best left on race boats, preferably cats rigged from the factory specifically for those drives. Whats the price on a conversion anyhow? I imagine you have to mount a transmission so you would have to re-rig the boat and move the motors forward, and probably set the motors at a specific height for the correct x-dim, that would include a new hatch. Now your talking a re-rigging the motors, hatches, and more than likely re-doing the transom. Not even close to the price of bolting on the Ace package no matter what the price of the Arneson is.
So BALLER, you got one comin for the DCB then??? :D :D :D

[BadKachina]

So BALLER, you got one comin for the DCB then??? :D :D :D
I'm putting a 4cyl and a Alpha 1 in it so I can afford to drive it.;)

[Mardonzi]

so here's a wrench in the works.. How is running a 2" shortie going to affect my x dimension?

[DMOORE]

so here's a wrench in the works.. How is running a 2" shortie going to affect my x dimension?
You can always add a spacer if needed. They have 1", 2" and 3" spacers available. They are not very expensive either.
Darrell.

[Mardonzi]

You can always add a spacer if needed. They have 1", 2" and 3" spacers available. They are not very expensive either.
Darrell.
I guess it was more a question of will I benefit from changing to the shorties... Not if I can modify something I'm considering purchasing instead of buying the right thing in the first place. I figure I'm buying 2 new drives, If I can benefit from going to the shorties, now is the time to do it.

[BadKachina]

I guess it was more a question of will I benefit from changing to the shorties... Not if I can modify something I'm considering purchasing instead of buying the right thing in the first place. I figure I'm buying 2 new drives, If I can benefit from going to the shorties, now is the time to do it.
Ill start a thread in the Fountain forum on OSO. You need some guys that have experience with that hull to get good answer.

[don johnson]

Ill start a thread in the Fountain forum on OSO. You need some guys that have experience with that hull to get good answer.
FYI.... I sold my B Max 2" shorty lowers to a guy that put them on a 35 Fountain and he picked up 5 MPH. He really liked them. He did comment that the boat did not turn as well which I experianced also with the B Max lowers. The Imco's are way better hydrodynamically. I can also tell you that on my boat the Imco's were 2-3 MPH faster at all RPM's.
As I said the Imco is a better lower hands down. I went thru many B Max lowers and once I switched to the Imco's I stopped losing lowers. Granted I am putting 1,100 HP to the drives and carry 36 pitch propellors.
I understand the peace of mind a warranty carries, however at 600 HP I do not think a 1 year warranty will come into play unless you are going to beat the crap out of the drives running it offshore and flying the boat....

[OGShocker]

OK,, well, the prognosis is in and both of the drives on my Fountain are trashed (I hit a submerged log over T-giving on Powell).
"LIVIN AT POWELL HAS IT'S ADVANTAGES"!!
Sorry to hear about your problems. PM Mr. Havasu. He might have a story about the B-maxs for you.
I had an IMCO drive on my boat. If you want an opinion on IMCO, I can tell you I wouldn't use one for an anchor, let alone a propulsion system.

[Magic34]

Resale: Merc XRs.
http://www.offshoreonlyclassifieds.com/new_mercruiser_bravo_xr-o14715-en.html

[Boatlesss]

28k is a good value when you factor gimbals, extension boxes, steering components, transmissions, and drives. With the Ace package you don't move the motors. With the 540's you do. Price out a new Imco, with extension boxes, and steering and see what you come up with. The Imco 1000 retails in the upper 30's. A number six is double that and that you do have to move the motors forward for it. Even a used number six, needs gimbals, and steering plus trannies and moving the motors forward. So for a non shifting drive (shifting in the tranny)with or without a warranty what drive is priced better? I'm a member of OSO, so link me the threads about warranty issues. I'd like to read them. The more info you can learn form others the better. You seem knowledgeable and I appreciate the ideas, and the info.
As far as warranty goes, Konrad didn't warranty the pre HT stuff except the upper. Merc and any other lower manufacturer (Imco, Max-Machine, Teague)won't warranty the lower. So now that B-Max is offering one year for complete drive with the Crescent lower, it's a good option. I have no doubt that Max-Machine makes some good drives, but no warranty is no warranty. Imco has never stood behind any of their products. Do a search on any performance boating site and see how well their customer service has done. Do they make good parts? Yes, their steering components, fuel switches, fuel tanks, etc. are all top of the line but try and send one back to get fixed and see what the outcome is.
Arnesons our as stout as they come, do they work well on all hulls? Not enough boats come rigged with them to know. They are supposed to be a handful to dock use and in close quarters. They also have a huge unprotected prop hanging off the back for your swimmers. I think they are best left on race boats, preferably cats rigged from the factory specifically for those drives. Whats the price on a conversion anyhow? I imagine you have to mount a transmission so you would have to re-rig the boat and move the motors forward, and probably set the motors at a specific height for the correct x-dim, that would include a new hatch. Now your talking a re-rigging the motors, hatches, and more than likely re-doing the transom. Not even close to the price of bolting on the Ace package no matter what the price of the Arneson is.
Ilmor? Imco SCX? Where are they? How much hp do they handle? Are they a direct bolt on? How much do they cost? Warranty?
IMCO SCX will require a different gimbal and Helmut and NO WARRANTY.
Ilmor? They are suppose to show their new drives at the boat show in FEB.
Arnesons have a prop guard, stole this pic off some other web site.
They have a kit, Bravo conversion kit they call it and the motors do not move forward. The Powerboat Rag said they cost $23K, that amounts to 16K less than the Konrads for a pair.
My friend in NY started a post on OSO after the Konrad people claimed "never had a failure" and asked how many had blew a Konrad. He had blew one and then a few others posted their failures and then OSO pulled the plug on the thread. He started another thread and OSO pulled the plug and eliminated him from OSO.
Must feel good to be the advertisers, and after reading such stories on Trick Marine, which so many people defended including OSO I am suspicious of everyone.