Cadillac Big Block jet boat project planned

[Yvettefan25]

I'm thinking a Talor jet boat, but would really like room for four, and want to use it for para-sailing and skiing as well as drag and crusing. The Cad 500 I'll use will be a replica of the Street Rod magazine 500 stroker build up, and will pull the same numbers 611 pounds of torque at 3200 rpms, 450 HP at 3600, and would be able to twist at 5500 rpms if needed. I'll get better numbers if I use fuel injection and move up to 10:1 compression, and get a cam built for higher rpms. 650 pounds of torque, 500 HP at slightly higher rpms is very realistic on pump gas. The engine is 85 pounds lighter than a big block Chevy-correction, an extra 35 pounds lighter than that with aluminum intake. My question is this: Is there a pump designed with the gears I need for the low RPM operating Cad motor, or it there a way to over drive it? How about a way for one engine to twist two side by side pumps? My goal is do regular crusing at 85-95 mph safly, and with top speed runs well above 100 mph. I was in a Cobra bass boat w/Merc 300 out board running 80 mph, and loved the speed, but did not like the way the boat tended to get air born with all the weight in the back like that. Any one got any Ideas or know anyone who went the Cadillac rout in jet boats? I'd love to get a picture.

[Jungle Boy]

Originally posted by Yvettefan25:
I'm thinking a Talor jet boat, but would really like room for four, and want to use it for para-sailing and skiing as well as drag and crusing. The Cad 500 I'll use will be a replica of the Street Rod magazine 500 stroker build up, and will pull the same numbers 611 pounds of torque at 3200 rpms, 450 HP at 3600, and would be able to twist at 5500 rpms if needed. I'll get better numbers if I use fuel injection and move up to 10:1 compression, and get a cam built for higher rpms. 650 pounds of torque, 500 HP at slightly higher rpms is very realistic on pump gas. The engine is 85 pounds lighter than a big block Chevy-correction, an extra 35 pounds lighter than that with aluminum intake. My question is this: Is there a pump designed with the gears I need for the low RPM operating Cad motor, or it there a way to over drive it? How about a way for one engine to twist two side by side pumps? My goal is do regular crusing at 85-95 mph safly, and with top speed runs well above 100 mph. I was in a Cobra bass boat w/Merc 300 out board running 80 mph, and loved the speed, but did not like the way the boat tended to get air born with all the weight in the back like that. Any one got any Ideas or know anyone who went the Cadillac rout in jet boats? I'd love to get a picture.
Cuising at 85 - 95 MPH?? Good acid. 500ci Callilac engines are heavy. There are some people working underdrives out there but I don't think you'll ever see a Caddi engine in a Taylor with 4 people in it cruising at 95 mph unless it's on a trailer.

[Unchained]

I don't think you need the parasail, you're higher than a kite already. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[coolchange]

My brother put one in his truck. 514, lighter, lower power band, built a sheet metal FI intake. Very expensive to build. Everything will have to be custom fabricated. Unless your trying to gain some notoriety stay away from it. Just my .01.

[froggystyle]

In contrary opinion to everyone who has posted, I think it is a phenomenal idea. I owned a Caddy as my first car, and back then there was an outfit called "Cadillac Motorsports Development" who was making an intake for it, and made really good power stock. Similar to the numbers you are describing. The block was the 504, not the 492 found in later models.
Reliable, strong lighter power will be in your future. Bolt it right up to a Berk 12JG style pump and run a "A" or "AA" impeller and you should see power where you want it.
Now, back to reality. In a 18-19 foot Taylor you will see around 73-74 mph with this motor. If the planets align and a ray of light shines down from heaven you will run 79-80 in a good following sea with a tailwind. 450hp does not get you very much speed, although the 650 ftlbs is formidable for low rpm pulling. Should work great for everything you are describing, short of 80+ runs.

[SSTSleakcraft]

Why not a caddy? You won't set the water on fire but Variety is the spice of life. A rear engine mount for an Olds will work. Remember, Chevy was the odd man out. Buick, Olds, Caddy, and Pontiac all shared the same bell housing bolt holes. Ford big block have similiar exhaust port spacing. Someone out there makes spacers to use BBFord exhaust, more readilly available than marine Caddy stuff. Good luck with the project!

[coolchange]

CMD is still around. They used to be in Ventura, are now back east somewhere. Off the shelf prices are higher for caddy stuff. just price a piston. But if your going to Arias etc. for parts pistons rods etc. the prices are the same. They don't care what it's goin in. Valves my bro ran a big Pontiac valve, justhad to shortin it up a bit. 2.35 I think. Hey old rigger, do they actually have inventory of those manifolds?

[Aduner2]

This set-up is screaming "Dual Jet Drives"!

[SPECTRABRENT]

OLD RIGGER,
Did you see who made a post on the Spectra site. The guy with the Spectra 18 out in Camarillo is still trying to sell his boat. I know that you already got a boat, but you should go make him a really low offer.
Brent

[CoastGuardSteve]

I talked with that guy in Camarillo last summer and he didn't seem like he was too worried about selling his boat. I would suspect that after a year of trying to be clever on the net he might take whatever he can get now.
Steve

[Yvettefan25]

Thank you for the good information. I was not aware that CMD sold out. I have been dealing with MTS ( www.500cid.com (http://www.500cid.com) ) I'm not too much interested in advise coming from the people who think that a Cadillac 500 is heavier than a 454 Chevy, but for those of you who are "in the know" The advise is wonderful. It seems the public is still in the dark 25 about the true nature of these engines even after 25 years. The idea of a duel jet drive is how I think I can take advantage of the low rpm torque if the gearing is right. I do not have to use the Talor boat, if a slightly bigger boat would be safer at 90+ mph then I am open to it. Is Spectra a better choise for this aplication? Do I need to be looking at a 19-21 foot boat? As I said, The Cobra was fun at 80 mph, but the 300 Merc in the back tended to shove the nose in the air, and we did get air born going over some pretty small waves. We could not keep up that speed for long runs-we just had to take advantage of smooth water. It was interesting to reach up to catch the gear that was rising of the deck before we would hit the water again. I don't want to ride like that again-it sure beat the roller coaster at the fair, but I enjoyed the speed, and would really like to see it in a safe boat. I know that there are several BBC jet boats out there that will run at 100 plus, and the drivers (pilots) live to talk about it. I know it should be possible with the lighter and more powerful Cadillac engine. It is the low rpms that I don't know how to get past. If 300 HP can take a bass boat to the point of lift off, then 611 pounds of torque should motivate a slightly bigger boat to the speeds I have discribed. I do not have a death with-strange as that may sound-but I do have auto racing experience, and a desire to meet my friend on the water in a boat that will out run his. Now, any help with duel jet drives, or over drive gearing of a single jet pump? How about boats? What is the best for that application?
P.S. I promote supermodel Yvette Rachelle as a hobby also. www.geocities.com/perfectyvette (http://www.geocities.com/perfectyvette) (she does not do nude or porn photos)

[coolchange]

Hey oldrigger, Thanks for the update on CMD. When my brother built the truck motor we had talked about it for a boat motor but at the time couldn't find a realistic source for manifolds. You're puttin one in a Spectra? Thats what we were thinking. Should be a great combo.

[coolchange]

PS I have a freind with a Spectra 19 Ford jet place diverter for sale. says he wants like 4500 with new interior.

[froggystyle]

I don't care what kind of torque you are making, you will never push a jetboat over 75 with 450 hp. I had a 100+ mph 19' Daytona tunnel hull, running well over 900 hp. I know of another tunnel with 980 hp running just over 100. I had a 510 hp BBC in a 19' bubbledeck run 73, and currently have a 650+ hp Merlin running 72 in a 21' Daycruiser (albeit well set up...)
The "airing out" effect was what put that boat in the 80's. You need to start with a good tunnel hull for any kind of speed. With that kind of torque, you can run an "A2" or even "A3" impeller and keep it loaded. No need to go with a dual pump setup.
If you have a dream of 80 mph with that motor, you better start with a very light tunnel hull, with one seat and small gas tank. If you stay more realistic, you will run 70+ all day in a four seater runabout.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Caddy motor is a great stocker, which if dropped in un modified to any degree will be lighter, with more power than a stock BBC and will perform better in a boat. That being said, stock with a couple mods (intake, cam and exhaust) is about as powerful as you are going to make it on any kind of budget. A BBC has infinite possibilities for improvement, and while overshadowed by the Caddy weight-wise when stock, a set of alluminum heads makes that difference up. Then there is the manifolds, then the rotating assembly etc... The point is, you can get a 400+ hp Caddy motor for $200 or so at a junkyard. You can't buy a BBC oil cooler for that. Bang for the buck, stock, goes to Caddy.

[Yvettefan25]

Hey froggiestyle, I'm not down own on Chevy. Parts are not the issue here. I can take BBC boat hearers and put Caddy flanges on them. Every thing I need to get the Caddy power I want is online. There is even 713 HP Caddy engine combo available that pushes 678 pounds of torque. It has 12:1 pistons however. Thanks for the impeller information. My dream has been to have a Cad powered jet boat for some time, but my only experience has been with outboards. If it won't go 80+ then so be it. As long as it can accelrate fast and hold a steady 78-80 mph I can still win the race that pride race because my friend's Cobra can't hold 80 mph for very long at time. And, now that I have been 80mph on the water, slower speeds do not sound exciting. I don't want to get disapointed if my BB Caddy gets out run by that outboard, and I would not like it if I prefered the wild ride of his boat over that of my own. I would rather put twin 500s in it and have a set up like the twin 454 powered Talor jet boat called Quick Silver. It does 0-80 in three seconds with it's duel jet drives and dual 454s. I hear the new owner is now adding superchargers to it. I can e-mail you a picture of it on launch if you want. It stands up like a rocket on take off. Or you can find the Taylor web site online that has the photos and info. If I built a dual Cad powered boat and just put mild upgrades in the stock performance numbers, that would be 1000 hp, or 1200 pounds of torque with two engines. I just don't want to spend that kind of money. Funny thing is, a two Caddy set up would get aproximatly the same MPGs as a single chevy set up that turned out the same power numbers. Don't take my word for it anyone, I know you won't believe it-just do the research and run the numbers. This is not a Chevy vs. Cadillac argument. Its a Cad project. Now, would a Spectre be a better boat than the Talor for this application? What about Honcho? Is there an open bow boat that would work? Or who makes a 4 seater closed bow that is the right size. What are we talking about 19', 21' what? As I said, I'm an outboard guy who wants to go inboard, but I want fast and safe to be part of the same reality. Speaking of safe, I do want to mention that the 80+ runs is not a four seater family application, just a one or two person racing application for the four seater boat. I have no desire to go that fast with my wife and kids on board.

[coolchange]

Everything froggy said is true, you will need a realitivly light TUNNEL to get those numbers. But remember in a drag race an 75 mph jet boat will spank 9 out of 10 85mph out boards!

[froggystyle]

Sounds like a perfect motor to me for a CP Gullwing. I think the TX19 is very similar. (Not sure about that one) Seats four, has a tunnel hull, well proven design and would look really cool with a Caddy motor in it. Trans-dapt makes valve covers for it too. I had a pair.
Old Rigger, did I ever write you with the name I had for a Caddy powered lake boat?

[Liberator TJ1984]

Sleekcraft and I know of one guy in town running a 500 Caddy in a street rod..he knows them in and out..he can even tell you which heads and pistons off different year models to come out to like 13:1 comp.w/stock parts..standing well behind his car..we've watched him wing it past 6000rpm..luck?..who knows ..but it is different and a torque monster..e-mail if interested and I'll give you his phone # http://free.***boat.net/ubb/cool.gif

[Yvettefan25]

Thank you all for the good info. Can you give me any links to sites that offer boats like need for this application. I can't fing a Roger's site. I've the Caddy engine tech I need now, thank you. Its the boat that is stumping me now. The A or AA drive pump is good info. Where do I find out more, my knowlege is not from that area. What would be a good web site? By the way, I spoke to Yvette a little while ago, and she says, "hi." Don't believe me? visit the fan site, then link to her fan club, or link to her site and e-mail her. She will reply in person.

[Unchained]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yvettefan25:
[I would rather put twin 500s in it and have a set up like the twin 454 powered Talor jet boat called Quick Silver. It does 0-80 in three seconds with it's duel jet drives and dual 454s. I hear the new owner is now adding superchargers to it. I can e-mail you a picture of it on launch if you want. It stands up like a rocket on take off. Or you can find the Taylor web site online that has the photos and info.
Yvette fan 25, I would like to look up that web site, what is the address?
Mark

[Yvettefan25]

All of you guys are great! I'm not able to finf a picture of a Roger boat or a CP Gullwing. I did not know there was going to be so many Caddy friendly people here. Check this out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association the association is looking for Cad powered boats to put in the photo album. There are some cool cars in it already-and some great tech articles. The group was founded on July 2nd and already has 19 members and 36 posted messages.
LiberatorTJ1984, thank you. You can have your friend e-mail me. I'll e-mail you as well. Your friend will find a whole lot of othe Cadillac guys at that yahoo group and on the MTS message board www.500cid.com/frames.html (http://www.500cid.com/frames.html)
old rigger, do you have a Caddy in the v-drive yet? Got any pictures?
coolchange, got a picture or a link to a site with a picture of the Ford powered boat? Would I have to change pumps to get it to fit? I don't know I'd probably have to get the A or AA impeller drive in a Berkley pump anyway. Might be cheaper for me to find a boat w/o the motor or pump-or find one that is worn out or blown.

[jeff-in-ky]

Yvettefan25,
If you are in the market for a new hull you may want to consider a 21 ft picklefork tunnel hull like Eliminator, Liberator, Edge etc. I feel that you would be in the 70's speed wise and you could always add nitrous for the drag race aspect. I don't think the parasail idea would work very well with one though, might be a fun ride! http://www.jmmarine.com http://www.tompappracing.com
Good luck with your project.

[Yvettefan25]

unchained, and the rest of you also visit this site and see this wild boat called Quick Silver-soon to be named Double Dare www.taylorjetboats.com/andy_and_vicki's_78_ss.htm (http://www.taylorjetboats.com/andy_and_vicki's_78_ss.htm)
Seeing is believing....If it was twin Caddy powered, it'd be the most perfect boat ever built (my opinion)

[coolchange]

The Spectra was in responce to OR or his freind wha was looking at a Spectra for sale, prolly not what your looking for. Too heavy. But as a "dock banger" for 4500 it is a hell of a deal.

[CoastGuardSteve]

Old Rigger,
When I spoke with that fella' with the Spectra 18 He told me that the price was non-negotiable. Apparently he believed that one of the "rich" folk over the hill would get a jones for the lake one day during the summer and give him what he was asking......needless to say no one was really hurtin' for a boat! I know what you mean about driving all over the place for a boat that fits your needs. I drove from the Bay Area all the way down to Simi Valley to look at a boat that was in much worse condition than mine for about $1-1.5k more than what I paid for mine. Some of these guys are just too much!
Steve

[Yvettefan25]

Jeff-in-ky, thanks for the links to the sites. I just found out there is a dual jet drive for a single engine set up. You have to place the engine a little farther forward to make room for the addapter. It puts two pumps side by side. It is made by dual drive systems in Anaheim CA. The number is: 714-993-2664 Talk to Herald Bruce. He had one at the boat show there. I don't know the cost of the set up yet, but it sounds exotic. A Cadillac powered dual drive jet boat sounds like a show winning combo. I will have to check into it more.

[Unchained]

Here's a couple of the pic's of the twin engine jet boat http://www.taylorjetboats.com/QS01.jpg
http://www.taylorjetboats.com/QS_1997.jpg
Quite a unique piece of equipment. I have to question his claim of 0-80 in three seconds though. Any boat that could accelerate that fast would top out at way more than 94 mph.
[This message has been edited by Unchained (edited July 09, 2002).]

[Yvettefan25]

old rigger,
That yahoo group I mentioned is looking for Cad powered boat photos, and there is an album for unfinished projects. They would be happy to get a pic of the work in progress.
Have any of you Cad friendly guys visited the group or the MTS message board yet?
How about Yvett Rachelle. She said she was going to put up a "hello" message to the "jet boat guys" on the bigger of her three yahoo fan clubs. I have not been there yet today to check, but am getting ready to. that adress is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yvetterachelle
I don't know about the credibility of the 0-80 claim on the jet boat either. It sounds good, but like I said, I'm new to the jet boat scene, and don't quite know what is believable. I just know what I want, and I'm so thankful to all of the help you all have given. I now atleast have some information to chew on for a while. I'd still like to see a picture of a CP gullwing. I still can't find one online.

[1HOTGMCJET]

ANYTHING for you, OR - you're THE MAN!!!! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/Untitled-11.JPG
There you go, buddy! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

[cyclone]

Oldrigger,
I have a couple of questions regarding the different models of boats that Roger's made. I've got the 18' Cyclone (1971 model and is actually under 18') and my friend has the 18' bubble deck (a 1976 model). The bottom of my boat has a pretty deep V to it whereas the bubbledeck is more shallow. The other day, I went and looked at a boat for sale that the owner clamed to be a bubble deck but turned out to be a 1974 Rogers that had my boat's deck (flat with a upward sweep at the front of the cockpit)and the bottom of my friend's bubble deck. I have heard there was a Cyclone, Super Cyclone and Bonneville TR. Do you have any idea what i was looking at? Thanks in advance!

[cyclone]

the flat deck 18 sounds like the boat i was looking at. It had more room than my boat but with the same deck. Thanks for the info Oldrigger! I might buy this boat, but I'm not sure yet. It needs alot of work and I'm still looking for a bubble deck project boat. Thanks again!

[Yvettefan25]

Thank you guys so much for your help in this project planner. After the research here and in other forums as well, I have decided to go with a '19 gulling. I am going to try to find a used boat that is in need of an engine and pump to cut the cost enough to off set the purchace of a dual drive pump set up. Both pumps will run A impellers. The Cadillac is a torque motor-not a horse power motor, and the dual jet drive is a torque application. Herald Bruce of Dual Drive inc. (714-993-2664)was very helpful and had much test data to draw from. Acording to him, a 500 pound '19 gullwing running dual jets and set up with the correct impellers will see mid 80mph top speeds without getting the engine above 4500 rpms (my horsepower peak) and the 3200 rpm torque peak of 611 footpounds turning two pumps will deliver unbeleivable acceleration. That style of boat should be stable up to 100+ mph should I decide to upgrade the motor at a later date. I chose the gullwing over the tunnel hull because the Cad can push the gullwing to the speeds I want and I can keep more manuverability.
The Cadillac engine I will be using is a copy of the stroker engine build up in Street Rod magazine, It is at 9.5:1 compression and uses pump gas. If memory serves correctly, it is 535 cubic inches.
Trivia: during the dyno test on that motor-the dyno pumps could not put enough pressure on the engine to measure its true torque until it was almost at 2000 rpms. They had to use a computer to calculate the off idle torque. Estimated torque at 1500 rpms-going by memory here-was 350 foot pounds. I can't find that article, if anyone has it, please publish the correct readings if that was wrong. A comment by the owners of the dyno machine (published in the article) was that they requested dyno testing time to be limited because they were afraid the engine would break the dyno....... Don't take my word for it-look up the article and argue with the author. Point being, that engine begs for a dual drive set up, and I feel that in this combination in a light weight boat is going to put out performance numbers that are so impressive no one will beleive the claims-which means I'll get a lot of races, and hopefuly an article done on the boat in a maganine.
I welcome any comments or suggestions. If anyone contacts Dual Drives Inc., please tell Harold that "Cody"-the guy who wants to build the "Cadillac gullwing" sent you. Maybe I will get a discount for the free advertising- ha ha. If I get my money together by January, I hope to have this HOT BOAT in the waters of Arkansas next summer.

[Cheyenne19]

I didn't know that you were from the rock. We share some common territory. Let me know when you get it running I want to see it. As I am only an hour or so from you.
c19

[froggystyle]

Did I mention that I have a set of Olds motor mounts and bell housing for sale?
Cadillac has a BOP rear pattern.
I don't know if the center section of the Gullwing is going to be large enough for a dual drive intake without some serious mods... but good luck!

[Yvettefan25]

Cheyenn19, I will be glad to give you a call when I finally get the project wet. Be sure and help me find some blown BBC people to race!
Froggystyle, Thanks for the input, Herald of Dual Jet drives recomemnds that boat, so it should work-he also has his people widening a boat six inches that was too narrow for the application-he seems like he has a good thing going.
To all of you who checked Yvette's yahoo group, she was out of town when I had left the request for her to say "hi" to the jet boat fans, but the post is now in the larger of her three fan groups.
Once again, Cadillac engin fans, if you have not visited the MTS message board, please take the time to do so. There are about 100 or more Cadillac guys who visit regularly and give out FREE tech information on the Caddy. I have learned a lot there-too much to list. A lot of the guys are joining the yahoo group called Cadillac_Performance_Association also free, and you can post pics of your Caddy powered ride. groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association
fan25

[Cheyenne19]

I have a NA BBC, but I am not challenging you to a race. I live in Memphis and have a farm north of Brinlkey AR. It is not far from Forrest City, if you are familiar with this area. Where do you take your boat? When do you think it will be ready, cause I really want to see it. Also tell me more about this dual drive. How does it work? Is it two impellars with one snoot?
c19

[Unchained]

Bench racing BS http://free.***boat.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Yvettefan25]

Unchained, you need to change your screen name to "grumpy"
Cheyenne19, I live in central AR close to Little Rock. It was a friend's Cobra bass boat that I was riding in when I got the need for speed fever. I do not have the '19 gullwing project boat yet. The dual jet drive set up consists of two standard jet pumps mounted side-by-side with a drive unit conecting them to one engine that has one input shaft and two output shafts. The drive unit mounts in such a way that in most cases the engine can be moved backwards 1" to the rear of the boat. The jet pumps are thus mounted more to the rear. If I remember correctly, the drive unit is 4" or 5" in length, which woild space the pums 5" or 6" farther out of the back of the boat. The rear view of the craft would look similar to the Taylor SS pictured earlier in this forum except that there would be only one engine.

[Yvettefan25]

Froggystyle, I forgot to reply to your post. I might be interested in what you have for sale, but it would be after I bought the gullwing, just in case it alreay has the mounts I need. Thank you for mentioning it to me, however.

[froggystyle]

Probably not going to find a ton of gullwings with 455's... Just a thought. These are not going anywhere.

[Unchained]

I have been called "arrogant S.O.B." and "Gung Ho M----- F-----" before, but that was years ago and I've mellowed out since then.