Mythbusters Plane on Treadmill

[LUVNLIFE]

Just heard that the episode will be on 12-12-07. That is Wednesday. I checked the website and confirmed it. Mark your calenders and chill the beer. Make the popcorn and pull up a chair. :D

[RitcheyRch]

Should be an interesting show.
MythBusters
Air Plane Hour
TV-PG
Jamie and Adam take wing to test if a person with no flight training can safely land an airplane and if a plane can take off from a conveyor belt speeding in the opposite direction. Tory, Grant, and Kari jump on some Hollywood-inspired skydiving myths.

[maxwedge]

Thanks. I will be watching the plane take off.

[Some Kind Of Monster]

Ugh.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[squirt'nmyload]

sweet....looks like we are gonna have to have a get together for this...i wonder if we can get the skybox to put it on :devil: :D :D

[AZJD]

Yes! This will make for some good CROW!
Tell me how it tastes.....:D
Fly away little plane!

[brad22]

mythbusters are awesome :D

[Infomaniac]

I'll be flying out to CA to collect on the dinner and happy hour drinks.
:D :D

[AZKC]

This is going to be the event of the year:D
It ain't flyin, it will be rolling though:)

[Kachina26]

As I understand it, TPC will be buying everyone drinks at Roc's firehouse grill once that badboy lifts off!

[LUVNLIFE]

This is to be a stellar event rivaled only by watching the grass grow:D

[mickeyfinn]

It may notfly, it should, but I have seen mythbusters screw up before.The way the original question was worded it would be a normal takeoff.

[AZKC]

This is to be a stellar event rivaled only by watching the grass grow:D
Hey with the rain we got it grew at least 1/2 inch:D :eek:

[Ziggy]

Hey with the rain we got it grew at least 1/2 inch:D :eek: Thems is weeds :) And yes it'll fly. Nee-ner nee-ner:D

[HavasuSelect]

I highly doubt Mythbusters will settle this. As we all know there are many ignorant people on this board. Those people will certainly criticize whatever method Mythbusters uses....

[AirtimeLavey]

This needs to be "sticky" thread, since this topic has been such an important and one of the most entertaining threads of ***boat. This is especially for those folks who still can't wrap their mind around the concept that it will fly. It will be an important event for HB and an epiphany for some! :D :D

[thatguy]

Do some really believe that spinning an aircrafts tires will make it achieve flight?
Noe I have seen some rediculously short takeoffs, who hasn't, but really.
Is this the kind of sense we're making these days?
Tommy

[HowardFlat]

I highly doubt Mythbusters will settle this. As we all know there are many ignorant people on this board. Those people will certainly criticize whatever method Mythbusters uses....
That and the fact that mythbusters concluded that dropping pennies down your intake manifold won't hurt your engine! :eek: So we'll be anxiously waiting their 'expertise' if you could call it that.:rolleyes:

[BajaMike]

Regardless.....the plane will fly....................:idea: :D

[AZJD]

I highly doubt Mythbusters will settle this. As we all know there are many ignorant people on this board. Those people will certainly criticize whatever method Mythbusters uses....
I was just thinking the same thing. Some people are already making excuses as to say that the mythbusters have screwed up before.

[Trailer Park Casanova]

Where's Jordy????

[topless]

It won't fly...............now a plane in a slingshot is another story.:D

[Kachina26]

That and the fact that mythbusters concluded that dropping pennies down your intake manifold won't hurt your engine! :eek: So we'll be anxiously waiting their 'expertise' if you could call it that.:rolleyes:
I've run a nut through an engine before(not on purpose) with no significant damage, can't see that a penny would be much different. Wouldn't recommend doing it as a monthly maintenance item or anything. :rolleyes:

[adjones419]

That and the fact that mythbusters concluded that dropping pennies down your intake manifold won't hurt your engine! :eek: So we'll be anxiously waiting their 'expertise' if you could call it that.:rolleyes:
How many pennies? A copper penny is fairly soft, so I could see it breaking up and ending up in the oil pan without doing a whole lot of damage.

[Racey]

How many pennies? A copper penny is fairly soft, so I could see it breaking up and ending up in the oil pan without doing a whole lot of damage.
:eek: I'm not shooting pennies down my intake any time soon.

[maxwedge]

I must have missed the penny episode, but I know I ran a mitsubishi pickup for 75K with a peice of spark plug electrode jammed in the top of a piston. Never really caused any problems besides the intitial racket when it first happend. Didn't even know it was still in there until I took the head off a few years later to fix something else.:idea:

[coolchange]

How many pennies? A copper penny is fairly soft, so I could see it breaking up and ending up in the oil pan without doing a whole lot of damage.
If you drop a penny down your intake and it ends up in the oil pan you've already got more problems that a penny can cause!:D
and pennies aren't copper

[FOXMAN]

The damn plane is going to take off!! It's not driven by it's wheels, it's forward thrust is provided by the engines that are connected to the wings, or even to the nose of a single engine prop airplane.. Now about the penny ending up in the oil pan?? Not in one piece, and not without some serious piston damage. And i wont be sending any down the intake of any thing i own to prove the point:D

[FOXMAN]

And after sitting back and thinking about my last post..Can i send some quarters down the intake first?? Then i think the pennys at least have a fighting chance at it:D :D Half dollars would surely do the job, but i dont have big enough valves to pass them:D

[beaverretriever]

and pennies aren't copper
If a penny was made before 1982 it is 95% copper. ;)

[Kachina26]

If you drop a penny down your intake and it ends up in the oil pan you've already got more problems that a penny can cause!:D
and pennies aren't copper
I've got to agree with the first part of your post.

[Krumbsnatcher]

Hey will someone create a poll on this matter, i know it will not fly, just wondering how many others agree.

[HM]

Hey will someone create a poll on this matter, i know it will not fly, just wondering how many others agree.
The key part is what is the speed referenced to? Since a plane needs air speed to take off, I would argue that air speed is the reference. Then, the treadmill would go backwards at 1 MPH for every 1 mph of airspeed forward...thus the wheels would see 2x's the normal speed and the plane would take off.
If the actual treadmill is considered the reference point, then the plane will not take off as it will not achieve any air speed. While the wheels do not propel the plane, the treadmill (in theory reacts with same speed at the exact time) and wheels will create enough friction to no allow the plane to move forward. At some point...everything melts down..but it is not a real world problem anyway as there is no way to design a treadmill to do this, unless you control it with a returned MSD box from REX. :D

[UltraStealth]

Thanks. I will be watching the plane take off.
I ran this by my buddy who is in the airforce. Here was his response after I asked him.
If you're talking about a normal fully operational airplane then the answer is...yes.
An airplane's engines (jet or prop) pull an aircraft through the air regardless of its contact with the ground.
Therefore, an aircraft on a conveyor belt would be able to achieve forward momentum and eventually the required lift to takeoff despite what a "conveyor belt runway" did on the ground.

[Instigators]

How many pennies? A copper penny is fairly soft, so I could see it breaking up and ending up in the oil pan without doing a whole lot of damage.
I agree, If a hole in a piston or broken rings and a scored cylinder bore isn't considered much damage. :confused:
Most likely you will find a couple of bent valves, mangled valve seats and a cylinder head combustion chamber and piston that looks like it was in a Texas Chainsaw masacre movie scene.:sqeyes:
The only thing goin down my intake is Clean Boosted Air and Alot of Fuel.:D
I bet you also think the plane won't fly huh.

[Instigators]

Where's Jordy????
He's hidin on the down low after he has had time to reconsider his pointless view.:confused:
Really, he's very involved in a new start up MLM venture. Product research and Human Resource issues. Great opportunity if you intrested.:D Send me a PM and I'll try to get you in on tier two as tier one ground floor has already been filled.:D

[CARLSON-JET]

Plane on a treadmill.... :D :D

[beerjet]

I ran this by my buddy who is in the airforce. Here was his response after I asked him.
If you're talking about a normal fully operational airplane then the answer is...yes.
An airplane's engines (jet or prop) pull an aircraft through the air regardless of its contact with the ground.
Dude .... Seriously , making sense and using logic only work in real life . Not on ***boat . Get with the fukin program .

[AZJD]

It's on 2nite! 9pm Cali time. Which means I have to wait until 10pm:(

[AZJD]

I ran this by my buddy who is in the airforce. Here was his response after I asked him.
If you're talking about a normal fully operational airplane then the answer is...yes.
An airplane's engines (jet or prop) pull an aircraft through the air regardless of its contact with the ground.
Therefore, an aircraft on a conveyor belt would be able to achieve forward momentum and eventually the required lift to takeoff despite what a "conveyor belt runway" did on the ground.
Still gonna have to see proof, then all the non believers will still make excuses. :idea:
Fly little plane, fly!:D

[RiverToysJas]

I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do the experiment correctly.....I'll let you know after the outcome.
RTJas :D

[essexjet]

It's on 2nite! 9pm Cali time. Which means I have to wait until 10pm:(
Or 6pm Directv time :D ;) :D

[Strippoker]

they did alot to test the treadmill prior to the show here is the footage they wont show you
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vhwBjJOsGvA&feature=related

[BRSTQUEST]

There is no way the plane will fly. The wings need forward movement to create the needed lift. A plane sitting on a moving treadmill does not provide forward movement. It would have a better chance if they put a ginormis fan infront of the wings to create the high and low presssure areas over the wings which is the actual force which creates the lift. The rounded(top) portion of the wing causes the wind traveling over it to speed up causing lift. Or areas of low pressure move to areas of high pressure causing lift.
Moving the wheels on the treadmill does nothing to cause these conditions to induce lift.........

[squirt'nmyload]

He's hidin on the down low after he has had time to reconsider his pointless view.:confused:
Really, he's very involved in a new start up MLM venture. Product research and Human Resource issues. Great opportunity if you intrested.:D Send me a PM and I'll try to get you in on tier two as tier one ground floor has already been filled.:D
lol.....he is out of town, but i recieved this spy photo today :D :D :D
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k265/squirtnmyload/races/wheresjordy.jpg

[HalletDave]

There is no way the plane will fly. The wings need forward movement to create the needed lift. A plane sitting on a moving treadmill does not provide forward movement. It would have a better chance if they put a ginormis fan infront of the wings to create the high and low presssure areas over the wings which is the actual force which creates the lift. The rounded(top) portion of the wing causes the wind traveling over it to speed up causing lift. Or areas of low pressure move to areas of high pressure causing lift.
Moving the wheels on the treadmill does nothing to cause these conditions to induce lift.........
The wheels of the aircraft don't provide the thrust;)
I'm betting that the AV8 Harrier will get airborn.:idea: :D

[djunkie]

I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do the experiment correctly.....I'll let you know after the outcome.
RTJas :D
I feel the same. If they accelerate the plane faster than the treadmill is running and the plane moves forward to create wind under the wings then of course its gonna fly. But if not and the plane is sitting stationary then that shit aint going no where. :D

[HM]

I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do the experiment correctly.....I'll let you know after the outcome.
RTJas :D
Why....was REX out of returned MSD boxes to control the speed of the treadmill? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[RiverToysJas]

Why....was REX out of returned MSD boxes to control the speed of the treadmill? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Not sure what that means... :confused: ...but if he was out of them, wouldn't that be because nobody returned them? :idea:
RTJas :D

[CARLSON-JET]

they did alot to test the treadmill prior to the show here is the footage they wont show you
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vhwBjJOsGvA&feature=related
Uhmm.... That's the 2 rhinos fighting under a G-string on a treadmill video. :devil:

[seanv]

not going to fly!

[BRSTQUEST]

The wheels of the aircraft don't provide the thrust;)
I'm betting that the AV8 Harrier will get airborn.:idea: :D
You are correct the wheels do not privide the thrust. The jets are what provide the thrust. I was a little short on my answer. The treadmill will not be able to generate enough speed to keep the jet from accelerating off it and thus will generate lift because it will be moving forward. If the jet needs 200 mph (EST) for take off and the treadmill spins at 200 mph the plane will not fly. But if the treadmill spins at 6 mph the plane will accelerate off it and will fly......

[djunkie]

You are correct the wheels do not privide the thrust. The jets are what provide the thrust. I was a little short on my answer. The treadmill will not be able to generate enough speed to keep the jet from accelerating off it and thus will generate lift because it will be moving forward. If the jet needs 200 mph (EST) for take off and the treadmill spins at 200 mph the plane will not fly. But if the treadmill spins at 6 mph the plane will accelerate off it and will fly......
See thats just it. i believe when this whole fiasco started they claimed that it would be on treadmill that will not allow it to over power the treadmill meaning the plane won't move forward. If they do it this way I don't see how it could fly.

[RiverDave]

See thats just it. i believe when this whole fiasco started they claimed that it would be on treadmill that will not allow it to over power the treadmill meaning the plane won't move forward. If they do it this way I don't see how it could fly.
You believe wrong Barker.. Originally they said "hypothetically" as the plane would reach 1mph, the treadmill would run inversely the same speed.
At the end of the day say a cessna, would be running 1mph, the treadmill 1mph, the wheels 2mph. If the cessna had a take off speed of 80 mph, then it'd still take off at 80, but the wheels would be doing a buck sixty. As the hypothetical question was originally worded.
RD

[Tom Brown]

Perhaps Myth Busters will figure out how to get an airplane to take off with no forward speed and no airspeed.
Get a grip, people. :rolleyes:

[Debbolas]

will too fly!!
:D

[mickeyfinn]

See thats just it. i believe when this whole fiasco started they claimed that it would be on treadmill that will not allow it to over power the treadmill meaning the plane won't move forward. If they do it this way I don't see how it could fly.
You people did not read the question fully. The treadmill WILL match the planes speed exactly, but in the opposite direction. The speed of the plane, not the speed as caculated by wheel rotation. Therefore if the plane is moving forward at 100mph the treadmill will turn backwards at 100mph. This has zero effect on the forward speed of the plane. It just causes the wheels to turn twice as fast. Plane moving forward on a stationary platform equals wheels turning at 100mph. Plane moving forward at 100mph while sitting on a platform moving the opposite direction at 100mph= plane fuselage traveling forward at 100mph and wheels spinning at 200mph.

[djunkie]

You believe wrong Barker.. Originally they said "hypothetically" as the plane would reach 1mph, the treadmill would run inversely the same speed.
At the end of the day say a cessna, would be running 1mph, the treadmill 1mph, the wheels 2mph. If the cessna had a take off speed of 80 mph, then it'd still take off at 80, but the wheels would be doing a buck sixty. As the hypothetical question was originally worded.
RD
I thought the treadmill was running in the opposite direction of the plane?

[Tom Brown]

I've flown quite a few times, both commercial and private planes. One thing I have noticed is when the plane is stationary and there is no wind, they don't seem to fly. http://www.***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif

[ahhell]

will too fly!!
:D
Will not:eek:

[Racey]

Well tonight is the night folks!!!!
Don't worry there's enough to go around :D
http://davidschwartz.com/blog/wp-content/popcorn_100000.jpg

[mickeyfinn]

I've flown quite a few times, both commercial and private planes. One thing I have noticed is when the plane is stationary and there is no wind, they don't seem to fly. http://www.***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif
SEE POST 57

[djunkie]

You people did not read the question fully. The treadmill WILL match the planes speed exactly, but in the opposite direction. The speed of the plane, not the speed as caculated by wheel rotation. Therefore if the plane is moving forward at 100mph the treadmill will turn backwards at 100mph. This has zero effect on the forward speed of the plane. It just causes the wheels to turn twice as fast. Plane moving forward on a stationary platform equals wheels turning at 100mph. Plane moving forward at 100mph while sitting on a platform moving the opposite direction at 100mph= plane fuselage traveling forward at 100mph and wheels spinning at 200mph.
Thats my problem. I probably read too far into it. I hope the freakin cable goes out so i don't have to watch this stupid episode.

[westair]

Whatever the plane does it has to be moving faster than the treadmill for takeoff. Moving the same speed, no takeoff. ???????? am I missing something here.
I don't even see that its on Mythbusters tonight .... at least not in San Diego

[djunkie]

Whatever the plane does it has to be moving faster than the treadmill for takeoff. Moving the same speed, no takeoff. ???????? am I missing something here.
I don't even see that its on Mythbusters tonight .... at least not in San Diego
This is exactly my point!!!!!!! If they over power it to move forward of course it will fly. The original question doesn't give enough information so this stupid myth can be interpreted a bunch of different ways.

[RitcheyRch]

I have the TV programmed to turn on at 6 PST

[westair]

Whatever the plane does it has to be moving faster than the treadmill for takeoff. Moving the same speed, no takeoff. ???????? am I missing something here.
I don't even see that its on Mythbusters tonight .... at least not in San Diego
Nevermind, I see its on at 9:00pm.

[LaveyJet]

As said in another post
The problem says "it adjusts its speed to match the plane's speed but in the opposite direction". Therefore if the plane (fuselage) is not moving, then the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 10mph then treadmill is moving at 10mph. if the plane slows down, the tread mill slows down. If the plane speeds up the treadmill speeds up.
The only additional drag on the plane is the friction from the wheels. The plane will still have the same aerodynamic drag regardless of the runway motion. If the thrust from the engine is great enough to overcome the additional drag,it will take off.
There will be some speed where the aerodynamic drag + the friction of the wheels will = the thrust from the engine. If that speed is great enough, the plane will take off, if not it will continue down the runway. My point is, the plane will be moving forward at some speed, not stationary.

[Debbolas]

Will not:eek:
T H E P L A N E W I L L F L Y ! ! ! !
Unless I'm totally wrong.....I'm never wrong, I thought I was once, but I was mistaken ;)
Wind + wings = lift
Isn't there wind created by the wheels moving on the treadmill?

[ColeTR2]

9:00 pm
(60 minutes)
MythBusters
Air Plane Hour
TV-PG
Jamie and Adam take wing to test if a person with no flight training can safely land an airplane and if a plane can take off from a conveyor belt speeding in the opposite direction. Tory, Grant, and Kari jump on some Hollywood-inspired skydiving myths.
The plane will fly... :D

[HM]

As said in another post
The problem says "it adjusts its speed to match the plane's speed but in the opposite direction". Therefore if the plane (fuselage) is not moving, then the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 10mph then treadmill is moving at 10mph. if the plane slows down, the tread mill slows down. If the plane speeds up the treadmill speeds up.
The only additional drag on the plane is the friction from the wheels. The plane will still have the same aerodynamic drag regardless of the runway motion. If the thrust from the engine is great enough to overcome the additional drag,it will take off.
There will be some speed where the aerodynamic drag + the friction of the wheels will = the thrust from the engine. If that speed is great enough, the plane will take off, if not it will continue down the runway. My point is, the plane will be moving forward at some speed, not stationary.
Only if the reference to speed is that of the ground/air. The wheels will see 2 x's their normal speed which should not produce any significant friction.
If the speed is referenced to the treadmill belt, the plane will never move. The treadmill would have to basically have the ability to accelerate at an infinite number. Think of when running on a treadmill at 8 MPH....you are not moving forward because your speed is referenced to the treadmill belt moving backwards at 8 MPH.
My opinion is that since a plane needs air speed to fly, that the reference for speed will be air, not the treadmill belt. Therefore, the plane will take off with the wheels (or what ever interface it has with the belt) experiencing 2 x's the speed. The original question does not talk about reference, so this where people are breaking down in the argument, only they don't have super ninja midget mind power to understand this detail.

[seanv]

sooo after the boat on the trailer myth was proven true :eek: i wonder if laters boat was.....ooops i said laters boat:D
plane wont fly unless it has enough air moving under/over the wing. so, its busted!

[djunkie]

Only if the reference to speed is that of the ground/air. The wheels will see 2 x's their normal speed which should not produce any significant friction.
If the speed is referenced to the treadmill belt, the plane will never move. The treadmill would have to basically have the ability to accelerate at an infinite number. Think of when running on a treadmill at 8 MPH....you are not moving forward because your speed is referenced to the treadmill belt moving backwards at 8 MPH.
My opinion is that since a plane needs air speed to fly, that the reference for speed will be air, not the treadmill belt. Therefore, the plane will take off with the wheels (or what ever interface it has with the belt) experiencing 2 x's the speed. The original question does not talk about reference, so this where people are breaking down in the argument, only they don't have super ninja midget mind power to understand this detail.
Hey McFly, read post #65. :D :D

[djunkie]

sooo after the boat on the trailer myth was proven true :eek: i wonder if laters boat was.....ooops i said laters boat:D
plane wont fly unless it has enough air moving under/over the wing. so, its busted!
I can tell you right now they aren't gonna do it right. They are gonna start the treadmill then accelerate the plane faster to the point where it will take off. If it stays stationary that shit aint goin no where!!!!!!!!!!:D :D

[catman-do]

Put me on the side of the "will not's".
I dont see how anything could fly without wind underneath the wings. People using thrust as a means to fly doesnt make sense. A glider fly's without thrust. However, without wind to 'lift" the glider it wouldnt go anywhere. With a plane at full thrust and no wind to give the plane lift, its not going anywhere. If the plane is on a treadmill and the wheels are moving, but the plane is not.... then there wont be any lift.

[racecar.hotshoe]

I said it last year and I will say it again it wont fly.

[uLtRADeNniS]

What time does the show start? I wanted to get home in tome to watch it!

[sun&sand]

8:00 CST at least here in IL...only 1/2 hr till it flies.

[Rocknpalms]

does not look like the right episode tonight

[LETZGO]

Of course it will fly, I still cant beleive people think it wont fly. Even with my newbie post count I can figure this one out.

[sun&sand]

yeah, got airplanes but they didn't mention anything about teadmills...damn!
Still looks pretty cool though

[Trailer Park Casanova]

It won't fly.
When you guys that think it will fly are proven wrong, report to ROC's Firehouse in PS for a good hazing w/ the flesheater.
Jordy will be handing out the swats:
http://www.fratbeat.com/images/spank.jpg

[adjones419]

It's on right now here in Illinois (central time), but they didn't mention anything about the treadmill in the introduction. The Mythbusters website says that it will be included in this episode though, dammit!

[AZJD]

You people are crazy. The damn plane will fly. FOCK!:mad:
If a swamp boat that is driven by a large prop can drive up river and exceed the flow of that river the plane will fly too. Shit the river can be moving 100mph and the boat will still gain forward momentum.

[clownpuncher]

scedualing was changed due to the fact that its: obvious that the plane will fly

[sun&sand]

nice landing lol.:D

[jesco]

IT WILL FLY!!!!!! the wheels have nothing to do with it. the plane generates forward motion from the props(or jet) not the wheels. the wheels will just be spinning faster.

[Rexone]

Perhaps Myth Busters will figure out how to get an airplane to take off with no forward speed and no airspeed.
Get a grip, people. :rolleyes:
What a flip flopping moron.
The plane will fly like an eagle. Well maybe a little faster than an eagle but you get my point.

[Kachina26]

It won't fly.
When you guys that think it will fly are proven wrong, report to ROC's Firehouse in PS for a good hazing w/ the flesheater.
Jordy will be handing out the swats:
http://www.fratbeat.com/images/spank.jpg
Are you there with credit card in hand to pay that enormous bar tab?

[sun&sand]

Of course it flys.

[adjones419]

IT WILL FLY!!!!!! the wheels have nothing to do with it. the plane generates forward motion from the props(or jet) not the wheels. the wheels will just be spinning faster.
You get it, I get it, Rexone gets it...but some people just don't get it!

[clownpuncher]

scedualing was changed due to the fact that its: obvious that the plane will fly

[jesco]

You get it, I get it, Rexone gets it...but some people just don't get it!
Well I have to admit, when this was first asked on here I was a no sayer. The next day,when sober, I came to and was very embarrased that I had said no. To much CROWN and coke I guess.

[sun&sand]

You gotta go down Bodie.:D

[clownpuncher]

It won't fly.
When you guys that think it will fly are proven wrong, report to ROC's Firehouse in PS for a good hazing w/ the flesheater.
Jordy will be handing out the swats:
http://www.fratbeat.com/images/spank.jpg
:D LOL. I seem to be a winner either way
Although, I'm not gonna benefit from the bar deal cuz the mutha will fly:D

[uLtRADeNniS]

scedualing was changed due to the fact that its: obvious that the plane will fly
LMFAO!

[sun&sand]

I'll wager Jamie bounces then overshoots this next landing

[mike37]

I think that every one is right
it just depends on how you calculate the speed of the plain
wont fly
if the plain is moving 80 mph relevant to the treadmill then the actual ground speed would be zero
will fly
if the plain is moving 80 mph relevant to the ground then the actual ground speed would be 80 mph and the speed relevant to the treadmill would be 160 mph

[coolchange]

OK! LIST.
WILL FLY.
1 coolchange
2
3
4
Won't fly. (and have no understanding of physics)
1
2
3
4

[mickeyfinn]

I think that every one is right
it just depends on how you calculate the speed of the plain
wont fly
if the plain is moving 80 mph relevant to the treadmill then the actual ground speed would be zero
will fly
if the plain is moving 80 mph relevant to the ground then the actual ground speed would be 80 mph and the speed relevant to the treadmill would be 160 mph
Won't fly=impossible scenario. The treadmill would have to be capable of infinite speed.
Will fly- The way the question was originally stated, intended and debated. What people cant get passed is the idea that the treadmill is a red herring and will have no affect on the planes forward speed. The take-off would be visually identical to a take-off from tarmac

[CARLSON-JET]

The only myth about planes and treadmills being busted tonight is that it was going to be aired.

[clownpuncher]

OK! LIST.
WILL FLY.
1 coolchange
Won't fly. (and have no understanding of physics)
theres already a poll, do a search. I'd do it but I'm at the river on iPhone

[maxwedge]

okay who's the, in need of an asskicking, jackass, that said it was on tonight?:idea:

[Mandelon]

The point of the plane being on the treadmill is to remove forward motion.
If the theoritical treadmill matches whatever forward movement the plane's engines make, the plane would not move forward.
It must move forward to generate lift.
No lift, no flight.
Keep in mind a plane is not a rocket. A rocket moves based on thrust, a plane based on lift.
Imagine the plane chained to a giant concrete column. It can have as much thrust as it wants. But it wouldn't move forward, so it wouldn't take off.
The movement of the treadmill would have the same effect as the chain.
The plane could put out enough thrust for it to travel 200mph in relation to the treadmill, but without forward motion there will be no lift generated by the wings.
For the sake of argument and lord knows we can argue around here....lets try this scenario:
Try thinking about this: See if this situation could be substituted. Feel free to suggest changes.
Instead of a plane substitute an air powered toy boat. Essentially a miniature airboat. Big fan on the back, similar to propulsion for a plane.
Floating on the water, as a plane would on its wheels. No propeller propulsion, as an airplane has no wheel propulsion. Similar scenario, different hardware. Would you agree this is equal?
Instead of a treadmill, run it on a sluice box with water flowing downhill or pump powered...ithis would essentially be "upriver". The speed of the water could be adjusted to match the speed generated by the propeller of the airboat. So the downhill current of the water would match the forward thrust of the airboat.
Most of us have run our boats up a river and dealt with the current. A little more throttle you run upriver, a little less throttle than the current and you are still pointed upstream, feeling like you are moving forward, but actually flowing down the river.
Would the airboat be able to move upriver against the current if the current matched the boats speed?
If the max speed of the airboat is 40 mph, and the current is 35 mph, forward speed would be.......5 mph. Yes?
If the max speed of the airboat is 25 mph and the current is 35 mph.....forward speed would be....uh...-10 mph. Except for the pitot tube speedo would say 25 mph....while the gps speedo would be at -10 mph. (probably it would say +10mph, but lets assume its capable of negative numbers)...
If the current matched the boat's speed it would be traveling forward at its maximum speed whatever that is.....It would indeed be moving at 50mph or whatever its max speed is, but only relation to the water, not in relation to the land around the river.
Instead of an airboat, how about a seaplane? Running upriver. Assume no wind.... Could a seaplane with a max speed of 180 mph take off heading upstream given a current of 180 mph?? It would be going 180 mph in relation to the surrounding land, but still making 0 mph in groundspeed.....

[Mandelon]

The only myth about planes and treadmills being busted tonight is that it was going to be aired.
It shows up on my onscreen guide.

[Boozer]

I've been waiting a long time for this episode. The episode that dissapointed me because there were no treadmills!!! FAWK!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tom Brown]

The point of the plane being on the treadmill is to remove forward motion.
If the theoritical treadmill matches whatever forward movement the plane's engines make, the plane would not move forward.
It must move forward to generate lift.
No lift, no flight.
Keep in mind a plane is not a rocket. A rocket moves based on thrust, a plane based on lift.
Imagine the plane chained to a giant concrete column. It can have as much thrust as it wants. But it wouldn't move forward, so it wouldn't take off.
The movement of the treadmill would have the same effect as the chain.
The plane could put out enough thrust for it to travel 200mph in relation to the treadmill, but without forward motion there will be no lift generated by the wings.
For the sake of argument and lord knows we can argue around here....lets try this scenario:
Try thinking about this: See if this situation could be substituted. Feel free to suggest changes.
Instead of a plane substitute an air powered toy boat. Essentially a miniature airboat. Big fan on the back, similar to propulsion for a plane.
Floating on the water, as a plane would on its wheels. No propeller propulsion, as an airplane has no wheel propulsion. Similar scenario, different hardware. Would you agree this is equal?
Instead of a treadmill, run it on a sluice box with water flowing downhill or pump powered...ithis would essentially be "upriver". The speed of the water could be adjusted to match the speed generated by the propeller of the airboat. So the downhill current of the water would match the forward thrust of the airboat.
Most of us have run our boats up a river and dealt with the current. A little more throttle you run upriver, a little less throttle than the current and you are still pointed upstream, feeling like you are moving forward, but actually flowing down the river.
Would the airboat be able to move upriver against the current if the current matched the boats speed?
If the max speed of the airboat is 40 mph, and the current is 35 mph, forward speed would be.......5 mph. Yes?
If the max speed of the airboat is 25 mph and the current is 35 mph.....forward speed would be....uh...-10 mph. Except for the pitot tube speedo would say 25 mph....while the gps speedo would be at -10 mph. (probably it would say +10mph, but lets assume its capable of negative numbers)...
If the current matched the boat's speed it would be traveling forward at its maximum speed whatever that is.....It would indeed be moving at 50mph or whatever its max speed is, but only relation to the water, not in relation to the land around the river.
Instead of an airboat, how about a seaplane? Running upriver. Assume no wind.... Could a seaplane with a max speed of 180 mph take off heading upstream given a current of 180 mph?? It would be going 180 mph in relation to the surrounding land, but still making 0 mph in groundspeed.....
Good post, Mandy. Very provocative. Also, I feel the urge to quote it in it's entirety.

[CARLSON-JET]

It shows up on my onscreen guide.
Let us on the east side of the rocky mountains know how it went. :)
Your mileage may very.

[coolchange]

The point of the plane being on the treadmill is to remove forward motion.
If the theoritical treadmill matches whatever forward movement the plane's engines make, the plane would not move forward.
It must move forward to generate lift.
No lift, no flight.
Keep in mind a plane is not a rocket. A rocket moves based on thrust, a plane based on lift.
Imagine the plane chained to a giant concrete column. It can have as much thrust as it wants. But it wouldn't move forward, so it wouldn't take off.
The movement of the treadmill would have the same effect as the chain.
The plane could put out enough thrust for it to travel 200mph in relation to the treadmill, but without forward motion there will be no lift generated by the wings.
For the sake of argument and lord knows we can argue around here....lets try this scenario:
Try thinking about this: See if this situation could be substituted. Feel free to suggest changes.
Instead of a plane substitute an air powered toy boat. Essentially a miniature airboat. Big fan on the back, similar to propulsion for a plane.
Floating on the water, as a plane would on its wheels. No propeller propulsion, as an airplane has no wheel propulsion. Similar scenario, different hardware. Would you agree this is equal?
Instead of a treadmill, run it on a sluice box with water flowing downhill or pump powered...ithis would essentially be "upriver". The speed of the water could be adjusted to match the speed generated by the propeller of the airboat. So the downhill current of the water would match the forward thrust of the airboat.
Most of us have run our boats up a river and dealt with the current. A little more throttle you run upriver, a little less throttle than the current and you are still pointed upstream, feeling like you are moving forward, but actually flowing down the river.
Would the airboat be able to move upriver against the current if the current matched the boats speed?
If the max speed of the airboat is 40 mph, and the current is 35 mph, forward speed would be.......5 mph. Yes?
If the max speed of the airboat is 25 mph and the current is 35 mph.....forward speed would be....uh...-10 mph. Except for the pitot tube speedo would say 25 mph....while the gps speedo would be at -10 mph. (probably it would say +10mph, but lets assume its capable of negative numbers)...
If the current matched the boat's speed it would be traveling forward at its maximum speed whatever that is.....It would indeed be moving at 50mph or whatever its max speed is, but only relation to the water, not in relation to the land around the river.
Instead of an airboat, how about a seaplane? Running upriver. Assume no wind.... Could a seaplane with a max speed of 180 mph take off heading upstream given a current of 180 mph?? It would be going 180 mph in relation to the surrounding land, but still making 0 mph in groundspeed.....
Chained to a column? What the hell does that have todo with anything? What does ground speed have to do with flying? Airboat 40 -current35 -speed 5? You guys are nuts! If tha airboat turns around and goes down current does that mean its gonna go 75? You guys never see a plane flying backwards? OMFG it amazes me how much useless info is added to a simple question! But it is really entertaining.:D

[snake321]

There's no treadmill on mythbusters.
***boat myth BUSTED....

[Mandelon]

Chained to a column? What the hell does that have todo with anything? What does ground speed have to do with flying? Airboat 40 -current35 -speed 5? You guys are nuts! If tha airboat turns around and goes down current does that mean its gonna go 75? You guys never see a plane flying backwards? OMFG it amazes me how much useless info is added to a simple question! But it is really entertaining.:D
Well that's the point isn't it? :D
Sorry if the other questions I posed are too complicated for you. :idea:

[coolchange]

Well that's the point isn't it? :D
Sorry if the other questions I posed are too complicated for you. :idea:
Ya they're to hard to read all the way through with out fallin off the chair! :D

[Mandelon]

geez, come on you're supposed to get all huffy and post more dramatically than that.
:D :rolleyes: :D
Got to work on my baiting skills. :idea:

[coolchange]

geez, come on you're supposed to get all huffy and post more dramatically than that.
:D :rolleyes: :D
Got to work on my baiting skills. :idea:
Sorry but your rep just won't allow that!:D

[Sleeper CP]

geez, come on you're supposed to get all huffy and post more dramatically than that.
:D :rolleyes: :D
Got to work on my baiting skills. :idea:
Thanks for clearing that up. I was going to mention that the friction of the air boat surface on the water is far greater than the friction of the air plane wheels on the treadmill. The air plane can over come the friction with much surplus energy and not that much friction compaired to the power to over come it.
But I quess you already know that;)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[Tom Brown]

Got to work on my baiting skills. :idea:
I think the trick is to say the least possible and be smug as hell.
I've found I can say the same thing over and over with the result of keeping the same people worked up for an extended period. Sure, the odd person will catch on but some will continue to get upset, even if they suspect you are kidding.
It's beautiful, really.

[Mandelon]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was going to mention that the friction of the air boat surface on the water is far greater than the friction of the air plane wheels on the treadmill. The air plane can over come the friction with much surplus energy and not that much friction compaired to the power to over come it.
But I quess you already know that;)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D
Remember that those airboats run across the water, not so much through it like a conventional hull.

[Ziggy]

geez, come on you're supposed to get all huffy and post more dramatically than that.
:D :rolleyes: :D
Got to work on my baiting skills. :idea:As well written as that was Mande it still is flawed. The resistance between an airboat and the water is tons greater than wheels bearings against the speed of a treadmill with "round" rolling tires.
Also, the original question stated only that the treadmill would turn in reverse of the planes forward motion, already indicating that forward motion will be present. The plane will generate forward mothion and the treadmill speed will be mostly absorbed by the freewheelin' tires with bearings.
.
Better recalc your figures and join the "it'll fly side" and save face. ;) :D

[clownpuncher]

Poor Mandy,that was one helluva thought-out post. Must have taken a while to type all that. Long winded post of incorrectness. :D All that work, only, you're wrong:D

[uvindex]

Keep in mind a plane is not a rocket. A rocket moves based on thrust, a plane based on lift.Sorry, but this is not correct. A plane climbs based on lift. It moves based on thrust (when a plane is taxiing down the runway, is that from lift? Of course not, it's from thrust from the prop or jet). When the treadmill plane starts its takeoff, it will move because of the thrust from its prop (or jet). Once sufficient speed has been achieved lift comes into play and the plane takes off.
The plane's gonna fly. :)

[RiverToysJas]

Sorry, but this is not correct. A plane climbs based on lift. It moves based on thrust
Correct! When I learned to fly that was lesson one......If you want to go up, add power. Even if that's all you change, you will go up! Without power (thrust), you don't leave the ground. ;)
RTJas :D

[Ziggy]

It should be rather simple to create this experiment with a workout treadmill and a RC plane, if anyone can keep the treadmill at the right speed.

[Havasu1986]

The only myth about planes and treadmills being busted tonight is that it was going to be aired.
Just checked...Its not even on tonite. :mad:

[Mandelon]

yeah, it just came on, and this expirament isn't part of the show. :sleeping: :sleeping:
Zig, I think I posted that without forward motion it won't take off, I never really picked a side of the fence. ;)
the airboat supposition isn't supposed to be a direct substition, just an alternate question.

[LUVNLIFE]

Effin bastards. They said it, checked the website and it checked out. I call BS on them couple of fags:mad: :eek: :rolleyes: :sqeyes: :idea: :(

[luvmyboat]

[QUOTE=Mandelon;2940406]The point of the plane being on the treadmill is to remove forward motion.
If the theoritical treadmill matches whatever forward movement the plane's engines make, the plane would not move forward.
It must move forward to generate lift.
No lift, no flight.
Keep in mind a plane is not a rocket. A rocket moves based on thrust, a plane based on lift. quote shortened
But a plane does move based on thrust! Forget treadmills, a plane is sitting still and then power is applied. Why does it move forward? Not because of the wheels having any power to them, the wheels turn because of the *thrust* of the plane. Visualize the worlds strongest 2x4 standing on end with the plane balanced upon it.....hit the thrust, the plane would move forward...... Mike

[Instigators]

The point of the plane being on the treadmill is to remove forward motion.
If the theoritical treadmill matches whatever forward movement the plane's engines make, the plane would not move forward.
...
All that was well written but flawed from the first sentence. :D
The point of the treadmill is to "Match the forward speed of the plane".:eek:
If the plane doesn't move neither will the treadmill.:idea:
The second sentence makes no sense whatsoever and is contradictory.:confused:
Don't worry though, you still have time to see the light.:D

[Mandelon]

As well written as that was Mande it still is flawed. The resistance between an airboat and the water is tons greater than wheels bearings against the speed of a treadmill with "round" rolling tires.
Also, the original question stated only that the treadmill would turn in reverse of the planes forward motion, already indicating that forward motion will be present. The plane will generate forward mothion and the treadmill speed will be mostly absorbed by the freewheelin' tires with bearings.
.
Better recalc your figures and join the "it'll fly side" and save face. ;) :D
Make this more river related......I like the seaplane scenario.
If a seaplane is facing up a river that goes down current as fast as the plane could go, could IT take off?
Say it needs 100 mph to take off. The river flows at 100 mph, :rolleyes: The plane heads upriver and gets on the throttle. It reaches top speed and is traveling 100 mph in relation to the river.....will it take off?

[Mandelon]

All that was well written but flawed from the first sentence. :D
The point of the treadmill is to "Match the forward speed of the plane".:eek:
If the plane doesn't move neither will the treadmill.:idea:
The second sentence makes no sense whatsoever and is contradictory.:confused:
Don't worry though, you still have time to see the light.:D
I don't remember the exact question is my problem. I was paraphrasing from what I remembered.
It would seem the plane would have to move, or the treadmill wouldn't move and what would the point of the question be eh?
Does it not say the treadmill matched its movement? :confused:

[Instigators]

Make this more river related......I like the seaplane scenario.
If a seaplane is facing up a river that goes down current as fast as the plane could go, could IT take off?
Say it needs 100 mph to take off. The river flows at 100 mph, :rolleyes: The plane heads upriver and gets on the throttle. It reaches top speed and is traveling 100 mph in relation to the river.....will it take off?
Sure it will. As long as the sponsons could stay attached to the plane at 200 MPH. If they couldn't it would be one hell of a ride into the Reeds.:D

[Instigators]

I don't remember the exact question is my problem. I was paraphrasing from what I remembered.
It would seem the plane would have to move, or the treadmill wouldn't move and what would the point of the question be eh?
Does it not say the treadmill matched its movement? :confused:
Let me look for the original question and I'll repost it. As far as the point of the question is to cause confusion to a very simple question using irrelavent points.:D

[luvmyboat]

Make this more river related......I like the seaplane scenario.
If a seaplane is facing up a river that goes down current as fast as the plane could go, could IT take off?
Say it needs 100 mph to take off. The river flows at 100 mph, :rolleyes: The plane heads upriver and gets on the throttle. It reaches top speed and is traveling 100 mph in relation to the river.....will it take off?
Great example! Remember that the plane needs 100 mph *air speed* to take off. The prop would help the plane reach 100 mph air speed and the water would be rushing under the sponsons (sp) at 200 mph.

[ColeTR2]

It was not on? here is a like to Discovery listing for today
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/daily.html?date=20071212.346
Quote
9:00 pm
(60 minutes)
MythBusters
Air Plane Hour
TV-PG
Jamie and Adam take wing to test if a person with no flight training can safely land an airplane and if a plane can take off from a conveyor belt speeding in the opposite direction. Tory, Grant, and Kari jump on some Hollywood-inspired skydiving myths.

[SinisterGrin]

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/Blank-Picard_Facepalm.jpg (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/Blank-Picard_Facepalm.jpg)
dude, this is never gonna end

[LUVNLIFE]

okay who's the, in need of an asskicking, jackass, that said it was on tonight?:idea:
Me, that is what the TV said, I checked it on the website, it didn't happen, so blow me:) You want to kick my ass, bring two friends with you, and I'll still take your lunch money:D

[SinisterGrin]

It was not on? here is a like to Discovery listing for today
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/daily.html
I think it is, there is a episode of mythbusters on about nothing but plane myths, i'm waiting on the treadmill myth

[LUVNLIFE]

Now we have sea planes involved:D

[lucky]

A thousand midgets with full size fans are standing in front of the plane! The air flow is now twice the rate of what it once was and has now upward lift , Will it take off ?:D

[ColeTR2]

I think it is, there is a episode of mythbusters on about nothing but plane myths, i'm waiting on the treadmill myth
I watching it too... but they have not said one thing about showing treadmill test.

[luvmyboat]

A thousand midgets with full size fans are standing in front of the plane! The air flow is now twice the rate of what it once was and has now upward lift , Will it take off ?:D
The plane will also move slightly forward and when it lifts up, the fan stream will stop and the plane will drop, killing several midgets. The process will repeat untill enough midgets are gone and the fans left fail to provide the required lift.

[SinisterGrin]

I watching it too... but they have not said one thing about showing treadmill test.
Yeah, they probably nixed it saying "these people are fokin retarded, they must own boats and actually think they can fly or somethin":D

[Instigators]

Here it is:
" A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor
belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction) instantly.
Will the plane be able to take off? ":D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131882 :devil:
Hope this makes things as clear as Mud :confused:

[jbone]

I believe this was the original posting on the subject.
Posted by tcook33 on 12-13-05
Titled "For all you smartie pants' or engineers"
On a day with absolutely calm wind, a plane is standing on a runway that can move (some sort of band conveyor). The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyor moves in the opposite direction. The conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). Can the airplane ever take off?
For the record. I say it WILL fly. The engines create thrust. The plane will move forward regardless of how fast the wheels turn. In fact, the "treadmill" could be going 5 times as fast as the ground speed of the plane, the plane will still move forward. The thrust of the engines will cause the plane to gain speed until enough lift is achieved to allow flight. The wheel speed is not relevant!

[Instigators]

I believe this was the original posting on the subject.
Posted by tcook33 on 12-13-05
Titled "For all you smartie pants' or engineers"
On a day with absolutely calm wind, a plane is standing on a runway that can move (some sort of band conveyor). The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyor moves in the opposite direction. The conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). Can the airplane ever take off?
For the record. I say it WILL fly. The engines create thrust. The plane will move forward regardless of how fast the wheels turn. In fact, the "treadmill" could be going 5 times as fast as the ground speed of the plane, the plane will still move forward. The thrust of the engines will cause the plane to gain speed until enough lift is achieved to allow flight. The wheel speed is not relevant!
Ding Ding Ding Ding, We Have a Winner,:D

[SinisterGrin]

LUVNLIFE said it would be on tonight, sounds like we got some bad intel, i've been drinkin and don't don't have the attention span to sit here and watch them crash planes in virtual reality.

[ColeTR2]

Who's the tard that said it's on tonight?:mad: I don't watch any TV so this is a waste of time.
Rio:mad:
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/daily.html?date=20071212.346
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45091&stc=1&d=1197526062
It's on their website we where robbed F'ers i'd like to kick there A$s's

[seanv]

we were duped! damnit. i was waiting for those ass pirates to crash the planes and comment "oh gee we have a full plane of flamers now" arrrrg! oh well, we all know there never can be fact on ***boat :rolleyes: :D

[westair]

If a plane COULD take off on a giant conveyor system then why build airports ...... if it was possible to do it .... it would have been done.
I say NO WAY!!

[Instigators]

If a plane COULD take off on a giant conveyor system then why build airports ...... if it was possible to do it .... it would have been done.
I say NO WAY!!
They could, as long as the conveyors were as long as a normal runway. :D If we did it would just add to the cost of the Airport and cause accelerated wear to all the plane's running gear.:jawdrop: Therefore it is simply cheaper to continue to build them without the conveyor.:D

[jbone]

If a plane COULD take off on a giant conveyor system then why build airports ...... if it was possible to do it .... it would have been done.
I say NO WAY!!
You are obviously NOT paying attention.
The plane WILL move forward with thrust. Thus the "hypothetical" treadmill will need to be as long as a normal runway.
You are still thinking the plane will stay in one place because the treadmill will counteract any forward motion. This is WRONG!:D
J

[Spotondl]

Chained to a column? What the hell does that have todo with anything? What does ground speed have to do with flying? Airboat 40 -current35 -speed 5? You guys are nuts! If tha airboat turns around and goes down current does that mean its gonna go 75? You guys never see a plane flying backwards? OMFG it amazes me how much useless info is added to a simple question! But it is really entertaining.:D
Actually YES, I have seen a plane fly backwards in a very strong wind... 50 mph headwind and a plane (Cessna 150) will hover... 70 mph headwind and the bitch will move backwards relative to the ground...
Cannot believe that ANYBODY would think a plane would fly off a treadmill matching speed. Some simply have zero spatial relation comprehension, but that is ok, some people can barbecue a steak better than others for no apparent reason.
The plane will NOT fly is my vote...

[Spotondl]

You are obviously NOT paying attention.
The plane WILL move forward with thrust. Thus the "hypothetical" treadmill will need to be as long as a normal runway.
You are still thinking the plane will stay in one place because the treadmill will counteract any forward motion. This is WRONG!:D
J
So, if I run 5 miles on a treadmill does that mean that the treadmill is 5 miles long? Or... Maybe the 10 foot tread goes around 2642.5 times in whatever time I can run 5 miles in? Holy shit... Soloflex better update their shipping policy to accomodate a friggen 5 mile long treadmill...

[Instigators]

So, if I run 5 miles on a treadmill does that mean that the treadmill is 5 miles long?
Yes. As long as the treadmill is stopped.
If the treadmill is moving it means that you had a ground speed of 5 mph and a windspeed of 0 mph and the length of the treadmill is irrelavant.

[jbone]

Okay, here is a simple and inexpensive test to check this theory.
Items needed:
1 Treadmill
1 Rubberband powered prop plane. Like the ones we all played with as kids.
Set treadmill to fastest speed. This will be way fast than this little plane will need to get lift, but it will make the point.
Wind up the rubberband and prepare for test.
Place plane on treadmill spinning against the direction of travel.
When you let go of plane, watch it move forward, against the spinning treadmill and take off.
Even if the toy plane doesn't take flight because it is in fact a toy, you will clearly see the treadmill plays no part in the plane's forward motion.
Who needs mythbusters. Obviously, they would not find a treadmill the size of an actual runway, so I'm sure they would use a remote control rc plane to prove the point.
You ask if I'm an aeronautical engineer? No, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
J

[jbone]

So, if I run 5 miles on a treadmill does that mean that the treadmill is 5 miles long? Or... Maybe the 10 foot tread goes around 2642.5 times in whatever time I can run 5 miles in? Holy shit... Soloflex better update their shipping policy to accomodate a friggen 5 mile long treadmill...
Again!
In your example, the forward motion is caused by placing one foot in front of the other. Thus the ground is part of the process. With a plane, the ground or treadmill speed play no role in forward motion caused by thrust.
Sheeeeesh!
J

[Instigators]

Okay, here is a simple and inexpensive test to check this theory.
Items needed:
1 Treadmill
1 Rubberband powered prop plane. Like the ones we all played with as kids.
Set treadmill to fastest speed. This will be way fast than this little plane will need to get lift, but it will make the point.
Wind up the rubberband and prepare for test.
Place plane on treadmill spinning against the direction of travel.
When you let go of plane, watch it move forward, against the spinning treadmill and take off.
Even if the toy plane doesn't take flight because it is in fact a toy, you will clearly see the treadmill plays no part in the plane's forward motion.
Who needs mythbusters. Obviously, they would not find a treadmill the size of an actual runway, so I'm sure they would use a remote control rc plane to prove the point.
You ask if I'm an aeronautical engineer? No, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
J
Your correct. It will fly. If you search youtube you can find an 8 yr old kid and his dad prove it.:D
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

[jbone]

Let us know when the light comes on...okay.
J

[Spotondl]

Gawd, if you knew what you were talking about you be dangerous. It bores me no end to try and explain the entire scenario for the umteenth time so we'll just put it this way.
The aircraft will move forward providing that the aircraft engines are providing the inertia. It does not matter what the aircraft is setting on whether it is on wheels, a conveyor system, the ground, etc. The aircraft engines are pushing, or pulling against the atmosphere not the ground, conveyor system, treadmill, or whatever. It does not matter if the 'treadmill' conveyor, etc., is whatever length as the aircraft will fly when it reaches the speed of rotation. If it takes 50 feet then that's when the aircraft will fly, if it takes 10,000 feet then that's when it will fly. It all depend upon the speed of the air over and under the wing. Not the speed of the wheels. An aircraft flies at the appropriate AIRSPEED, the ground speed has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Short conveyor system or treadmill and the plane will run off the end and continue on til it gets the proper airspeed to fly. Long conveyor and the airplane will run till it get the appropriate airspeed to fly.(we're not talking about crashes here)
Maybe if we used a boat as an example it would be more understandable to this crowd. (i doubt it).
Supposing a boat will get on plane at 35 mph. That means 35 mph of water passing under the hull. That is in a lake with no water flow or movement. Take that same boat to a river with a current of 5 mph. Going downstream that boat will still need the 35 mph to plane on top of the 5 mph current so the boat would show a ground speed of 40 mph(gps or radar speedo) but only 35 mph on the boat speedo(water ram tube).
Turn the boat around and go upstream and the boat still needs 35 mph of water passing under the hull to plane. The ground speed would show 30 mph but the boat speedo (ram tube) would show 35mph.
Get it yet?
Rio
Actually, I do see your point... the atmosphere is independent of the treadmill. Tread mill could be running 200 miles an hour but the atmosphere would be still, with the exception of the laminar flow on the tread itself. Add thrust to a stationary atmosphere and yes, the plane will move forward relative to the atmosphere and the treadmill... Understanding your hypothesis, yes the plane will move forward and take off at the appropriate airspeed regardless of the treadmill speed...
I stand corrected...

[Spotondl]

Gawd, if you knew what you were talking about you be dangerous. It bores me no end to try and explain the entire scenario for the umteenth time so we'll just put it this way.
Rio
LOL, who said I wasn't dangerous? :D :D :D

[FOXMAN]

Let us know when the light comes on...okay.
J
The lights might be on But nobody is home:rolleyes:

[Spotondl]

Again!
In your example, the forward motion is caused by placing one foot in front of the other. Thus the ground is part of the process. With a plane, the ground or treadmill speed play no role in forward motion caused by thrust.
Sheeeeesh!
J
Having rethought the process, I agree, IF the treadmill was 10,000 feet long, the plane would have ample room to take off relative to a stationary atmosphere regardless of treadmill speed.

[Rexone]

Sure, the odd person will catch on but some will continue to get upset, even if they suspect you are kidding.
It's beautiful, really.
Tom there's no reason to get personal and call me odd.
:mad:

[OCMerrill]

Tom there's no reason to get personal and call me odd.
:mad:
Hey there was a shoe, you tried it on, and it fit.
No reason to blame Tom for that.
:D :D

[Mandelon]

I used to think rio was right, but then I thought about it again.
I wanna know if a plane could land on a treadmill.......:D

[LUVNLIFE]

Who's the tard that said it's on tonight?:mad: I don't watch any TV so this is a waste of time.
Rio:mad:
Like I said before, I did. That's what was announced on the air that's what was on the schedule so blow me:D :D

[LUVNLIFE]

LUVNLIFE said it would be on tonight, sounds like we got some bad intel, i've been drinkin and don't don't have the attention span to sit here and watch them crash planes in virtual reality.
I only went by ,,,,let's see what they announced was to be on and what was listed in the schedule. I turned it off after the first five minutes of the show after the preview. Can only go by what they tell me. Oh and someone was nice enough to post the schedule, thanks:D

[LUVNLIFE]

If a plane COULD take off on a giant conveyor system then why build airports ...... if it was possible to do it .... it would have been done.
I say NO WAY!!
Good answer. That would save alot of space;)

[LUVNLIFE]

Your correct. It will fly. If you search youtube you can find an 8 yr old kid and his dad prove it.:D
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
I didn't see any flying:D :D

[LUVNLIFE]

The original question does not state a prop plane or jet. :confused: We have to start over:D :D

[AZJD]

If a plane COULD take off on a giant conveyor system then why build airports ...... if it was possible to do it .... it would have been done.
I say NO WAY!!
Even on a treadmill or conveyor system, the plane still needs the same amount of length to take off. It doens't creat shorter take off.

[AZKC]

The original question does not state a prop plane or jet. :confused: We have to start over:D :D
Theres allways time to start over, or pose another question possibly:idea:

[maxwedge]

I'm hoping they just realized how just how ignorant all the people who think it won't fly really are, and decided it was going to take a whole hour show to explain it in a way those people could understand. Hopefully that show will be aired soon....
Of course, there is always the possibility that they just need to have the Mythbusters site flooded with complaints and Rick roll links, Thumpertalk style.:D

[Chase]

I CAN'T BELIEVE people actually think this plane will not fly...and some to spend so much time typing a theory to justify thier incorrect "theory"...Like Come on..go back to physics class...

[Some Kind Of Monster]

Wow.

[Instigators]

I didn't see any flying:D :D
That's because, Oh nevermind. I just realized that arguing with simple minds is kinda like Wrestling with a Pig, The smart one soon learns that the Pig Like's it.:D

[Instigators]

The original question does not state a prop plane or jet. :confused: We have to start over:D :D
It doesn't matter.:D

[westair]

They are many different variations and scenarios of treadmills on here, some of which would fly and some that would not allow it. Its impossible to argue as I can see it either way depending on the setup.
Done with this subject - I'm out

[DEMOMAN]

Does a treadmill of this size even exist? Thats the real myth that needs to be busted:)

[ColeTR2]

Jamie and Adam said they did not air the show because they didn't want to insult their viewers that have a IQ higher then 100. Anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that a airplane gets its propulsion from the atmosphere and not from the ground. Or what ever else is under it.

[Ziggy]

Make this more river related......I like the seaplane scenario.
If a seaplane is facing up a river that goes down current as fast as the plane could go, could IT take off?
Say it needs 100 mph to take off. The river flows at 100 mph, :rolleyes: The plane heads upriver and gets on the throttle. It reaches top speed and is traveling 100 mph in relation to the river.....will it take off?
My boat goes faster upstream, speedo says so :D:D:D

[Ziggy]

Your correct. It will fly. If you search youtube you can find an 8 yr old kid and his dad prove it.:D
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAkThere ya have it...........Who's buying all the drinks for the "no Fly peeps" thats owed to us fly boys? :D:D

[Strippoker]

Ha ha ha ha the myth grows even more now to just how many people can you get fired up about one little airplane myth. That and well with the writters strike they had to delay the show a few weeks. Kinda like the myth of a guy named River Dave the truth may never be found.

[Instigators]

There ya have it...........Who's buying all the drinks for the "no Fly peeps" thats owed to us fly boys? :D:D
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[topless]

WRONG ! The plane doesn't need ANY SET "length" to take off as the length only has to do with the time it takes to get the plane accelerated to get the required amount of airflow over and under the wing. The wing basically dictates the amount of airflow required and is not variable. The length of the take-off roll will vary according to the amount of thrust or pull from the planes power system. The more power =>less length of runway, the less power => more length of runway.
An aircraft carrier compensates for a shorter runway by the use of a catapult to advance the speed necessary to generate lift.( plus for take off the ship will be heading into the wind to help generate additional lift ).
It doesn't matter if the plane is powered by jet, prop, 3 rats in a cage, or the hot air on the ***boat forums.
This conversation has already bored the hell outta me this morning so I'll say "later" LOL and go back to some of my gun websites and read the assinine posts by the other wackos of the internet.:D
Rio
Here ya go Rio.
http://equipaje.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/20011110-guns.jpg

[essexjet]

Like I said before, I did. That's what was announced on the air that's what was on the schedule so blow me:D :D
Cale, I got your back::D
"Internet pissed at Mythbusters for not showing airplane on a treadmill"
http://www.kottke.org/07/12/internet-pissed-at-mythbusters-for-not-showing-airplane-on-a-treadmill

[AZJD]

WRONG ! The plane doesn't need ANY SET "length" to take off as the length only has to do with the time it takes to get the plane accelerated to get the required amount of airflow over and under the wing. The wing basically dictates the amount of airflow required and is not variable. The length of the take-off roll will vary according to the amount of thrust or pull from the planes power system. The more power =>less length of runway, the less power => more length of runway.
An aircraft carrier compensates for a shorter runway by the use of a catapult to advance the speed necessary to generate lift.( plus for take off the ship will be heading into the wind to help generate additional lift ).
It doesn't matter if the plane is powered by jet, prop, 3 rats in a cage, or the hot air on the ***boat forums.
This conversation has already bored the hell outta me this morning so I'll say "later" LOL and go back to some of my gun websites and read the assinine posts by the other wackos of the internet.:D
Rio
The prop or turbine only thrusts the plane forward and direct air over the wing where it is mounted. The plane has to have forward momentum to generate lift, which uses the whole wing. Plane cannot take off stationary.

[topless]

Cale, I got your back::D
"Internet pissed at Mythbusters for not showing airplane on a treadmill"
http://www.kottke.org/07/12/internet-pissed-at-mythbusters-for-not-showing-airplane-on-a-treadmill
:eek: :eek:
According to their web site and TV Guide, last night's episode of Mythbusters was supposed to address the airplane on a treadmill question. They didn't and nerds everywhere are upset. According to an email from the executive producer of the show, the segment got rescheduled:

[Blown 33 Daytona]

The plane will fly end of story. The only problem i see is that if the treadmill is going the oppisite way as the plane at the same speed the wheels would be turning twice as fast upon takeoff. So who knows if they could handle it

[Some Kind Of Monster]

Nerds. :devil: :D

[clownpuncher]

Having rethought the process, I agree, IF the treadmill was 10,000 feet long, the plane would have ample room to take off relative to a stationary atmosphere regardless of treadmill speed.
Length of the treadmill has zero influence on whether the plane will take off or not.
The treadmill could be 20 feet or 20,000 feet.
If the plane on the treadmill runs out of treadmill, the plane will continue forward with minimal loss, or gain, in airspeed.

[ratso]

The plane will take off... especially if it's a Harrier:D
http://www.gulture.com/jetpilot/hover.htm

[wright27]

I was one of the ones who thought the plane would not fly. After watching that youtube demonstration, it will fly. The wheels on the treadmill have nothing to do with the speed of the plane. The speed of a plane is not generated by power to the wheels on the ground. It is generated by the force of the engines in the air. The plane moves forward regardless of how fast the ground is moving under the wheels.

[Some Kind Of Monster]

Length of the treadmill has zero influence on whether the plane will take off or not.
The treadmill could be 20 feet or 20,000 feet.
If the plane on the treadmill runs out of treadmill, the plane will continue forward with minimal loss, or gain, in airspeed.
Gawd,.. I've never seen a Cessna take off in 20 feet. Have you? :rolleyes:

[clownpuncher]

Gawd,.. I've never seen a Cessna take off in 20 feet. Have you? :rolleyes:
LOL, no I haven't. What I have seen though is the fact that you haven't got it yet;)
Treadmill/conveyor is totally irrelevent to whether the plane will take off. I promise, the light will come on sooner or later.:D

[ratso]

Gawd,.. I've never seen a Cessna take off in 20 feet. Have you? :rolleyes:
It can if the treadmill is running the same direction that the plane is moving...:D

[clownpuncher]

It can if the treadmill is running the same direction that the plane is moving...:D
Stop it!!!!!!:devil: :D

[RiverToysJas]

I was one of the ones who thought the plane would not fly. After watching that youtube demonstration, it will fly. The wheels on the treadmill have nothing to do with the speed of the plane. The speed of a plane is not generated by power to the wheels on the ground. It is generated by the force of the engines in the air. The plane moves forward regardless of how fast the ground is moving under the wheels.
OK, I follow.....but what about an airboat on a fast moving river? Would an airboat (airplane engine & prop giving thrust on a flat bottomed boat) move up a fast moving river regardless of the speed of the river? OR would it first have to overcome the current to make any ground speed (speed over the land which would give it's wings lift it had any)? And finally....How is that different than a treadmill?
Just askin'!!! :D
RTJas :D

[clownpuncher]

OK, I follow.....but what about an airboat on a fast moving river? Would an airboat (airplane engine & prop giving thrust on a flat bottomed boat) move up a fast moving river regardless of the speed of the river? OR would it first have to overcome the current to make any ground speed (speed over the land which would give it's wings lift it had any)? And finally....How is that different than a treadmill?
Just askin'!!! :D
RTJas :D
I'm thinking it has something to do with friction and surface area.
Could be wrong, I'm just sayin', you know.;)

[topless]

Thanks a lot Alison!! Not much makes me cry but you've succeeded. WAH WAH:cry: :cry: :cry:
Rio:D :D Mission Accomplished.:D :D

[BajaMike]

Your correct. It will fly. If you search youtube you can find an 8 yr old kid and his dad prove it.:D
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
An 8 year old smarter then some of the people here.............:D :D :eek:

[RiverToysJas]

The vehicle would first have to match the speed of the current to have 0 ground speed. If it doesn't it will float downstream.
.... :idea: .....so if the plane on the treadmill locked up it's brakes, it would fly backwards off the treadmill? .....Interesting.
RTJas :D

[Skullinator]

also known as episode 97

[RiverToysJas]

It is going to air on January 30th also known as episode 97
So should I make this thread sticky until then???? :D

[clownpuncher]

So should I make this thread sticky until then???? :D
Yep!!:D

[coolchange]

Gawd,.. I've never seen a Cessna take off in 20 feet. Have you? :rolleyes:
Who said Cessna? And yes as a matter of fact I HAVE seen a Cessna take of in 0 feet actually. And there was nobody in it.:eek:

[Troy McClure]

Cannot believe that ANYBODY would think a plane would fly off a treadmill matching speed. Some simply have zero spatial relation comprehension, but that is ok, some people can barbecue a steak better than others for no apparent reason.
The plane will NOT fly is my vote...
I used to believe differently but after reading this and all the other posts, I'm convinced...the plane will NOT fly. There is just no way...
I mean, with the engines pushing air over the wings and all and the treadmill taking all that energy up and just spinning around, no way. That plane is sitting still.
I think I took a class in spatial relations in college too, so I know....(or maybe I read about those type of relations on the internet???) Either way, I now KNOW that the plane will just sit there.
Also, has anyone thought about what type of fuel is in the jet? I bet no one thought about that DID THEY!!! :idea: :idea: :idea:
;)

[coolchange]

Actually, I do see your point... the atmosphere is independent of the treadmill. Tread mill could be running 200 miles an hour but the atmosphere would be still, with the exception of the laminar flow on the tread itself. Add thrust to a stationary atmosphere and yes, the plane will move forward relative to the atmosphere and the treadmill... Understanding your hypothesis, yes the plane will move forward and take off at the appropriate airspeed regardless of the treadmill speed...
I stand corrected...
Woohoo! Most HBers would just leave the thread when (if) they figured it out.:D

[RiverToysJas]

:idea: ......Who makes this treadmill we're talking about anyway, and where is it?
I think the myth is busted based simply on the fact there is no such treadmill capable of holding a full size aircraft? :devil:
RTJas :rolleyes:

[clownpuncher]

Cannot believe that ANYBODY would think a plane would fly off a treadmill matching speed. Some simply have zero spatial relation comprehension, but that is ok, some people can barbecue a steak better than others for no apparent reason.
The plane will NOT fly is my vote...
LOL, all them big words and shit.....only..........you're still wrong:jawdrop: :D AND I can still BBQ a steak better than you:D

[RiverToysJas]

OK...I've been doing my homework. This was tried out at Park Moabi.....the river took the place of the treadmill, and Cessna 172 was used for the airplane. The plane did NOT take off!!! The wheels had a problem with the treadmill......
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29254&d=1177299522
RTJas :D

[mike37]

any one remember the original question haw was it worded :confused:
I still think both sides are right
depending on how you reference the speed related to the treadmill:idea:

[RiverToysJas]

any one remember the original question haw was it worded :confused:
I still think both sides are right
depending on how you reference the speed related to the treadmill:idea:
Yeah!!! That solves the arguement.......EVERYONE is right!!!! :)

[AZJD]

AZJD, please pay attention, the plane does NOT need forward momentum to generate lift! Lift is generated by air moving over and under the wing by whatever means. How the hell you think a plane in a wind tunnel flies? DAH, by wind moving over and under the wing! The plane is stationary.
The engine, whether it is jet, turbine, prop or a fat chic cutting farts out the rear have very little to do with lift. The engine does not direct air over the wing where it is mounted. The WING design is what directs air over and under the surface of the wing. The engine only provides forward movement of the fuselage. (and since the wing is attached it goes along for the ride.).
Example, do a google search "flight". Boeing 727. Engines are mounted on the tail. Example; just about every biz jet have the engines mounted on the rear fuselage. Example; what about a hang glider? They've been known to "take-off" by just standing still in the wind on the top of a hill.
Please can it while you're only a little behind the rest of the class as the more you erode my patience the worse you'll look.
Thanks a lot Alison!! Not much makes me cry but you've succeeded. WAH WAH:cry: :cry: :cry:
Rio
Untrue! If that were the case we wouldn't need a catapault to launch from a carrier. We would just need a really strong rope to hold them long enough to lift off.

[LUVNLIFE]

That's because, Oh nevermind. I just realized that arguing with simple minds is kinda like Wrestling with a Pig, The smart one soon learns that the Pig Like's it.:D
I'm just saying I didn't see any flying:D :D And then you go and change that to wanting to wrestle in the mud with me:rolleyes: I'm hetero :D :D

[LUVNLIFE]

It doesn't matter.:D
One pulls and one pushes:D :D I'm not saying take off or not but why not throw something else in the ring.:D :D

[LUVNLIFE]

Cale, I got your back::D
"Internet pissed at Mythbusters for not showing airplane on a treadmill"
http://www.kottke.org/07/12/internet-pissed-at-mythbusters-for-not-showing-airplane-on-a-treadmill
Thank you. It's begining to resemble midget wrestling at it's finest in here.:D :D

[LUVNLIFE]

An 8 year old smarter then some of the people here.............:D :D :eek:
Imagine that:rolleyes: :D :D

[wright27]

I used to believe differently but after reading this and all the other posts, I'm convinced...the plane will NOT fly. There is just no way...
I mean, with the engines pushing air over the wings and all and the treadmill taking all that energy up and just spinning around, no way. That plane is sitting still.
I think I took a class in spatial relations in college too, so I know....(or maybe I read about those type of relations on the internet???) Either way, I now KNOW that the plane will just sit there.
Also, has anyone thought about what type of fuel is in the jet? I bet no one thought about that DID THEY!!! :idea: :idea: :idea:
;)
That is the thing. The wheels are free spinning. An airplane gains it speed from the engines force against air, not power to the wheels. The plane will move forward regardles of how fast the treadmill is moving. The only way the treadmill will affect the movement of the plane is if the brakes are applied, or there is no force coming from the engines.

[RiverToysJas]

Anyone have a home treadmill and a skateboard?
Push the skateboard on the treadmill using your arm to simulate the "aircraft engine" see what happens........... :idea:
RTJas :D

[Troy McClure]

That is the thing. The wheels are free spinning. An airplane gains it speed from the engines force against air, not power to the wheels. The plane will move forward regardles of how fast the treadmill is moving. The only way the treadmill will affect the movement of the plane is if the brakes are applied, or there is no force coming from the engines.
Ha Ha, sorry, I had a few drinks after work yesterday....
I was just playing around hence the spatial relationship comments..:D

[Kachina26]

Anyone have a home treadmill and a skakeboard?
Push the skakeboard on the treadmill using your arm to simulate the "aircraft engine" see what happens........... :idea:
RTJas :D
I did it, and you know what? The skate board did not fly! Proof positive!:devil:

[Strippoker]

this is from the MB forum :
Dear all,
As wbarnhill called out, I thought I should step in to what is rapidly becoming a hornet's nest. I will try to calm things down but I don't hold out much hope!
First up, for those concerned that this story has been cancelled, don't worry, planes on a conveyer belt has been filmed, is spectacular, and will be part of what us Mythbusters refer to as 'episode 97'. Currently that is due to air on January 30th.
Secondly, for those very aggrieved fans feeling "duped" into watching tonight's show, I can only apologise. I'm not sure why the listings / internet advertised that tonight's show contained POCB. I will endeavour to find out an answer but for those conspiracy theorists amongst you, I can assure you that it will have just been an honest mistake. At one point
several months ago, POCB was going to be part of Airplane Hour. Somewhere, someone has mistakenly posted the wrong listing. It will have been a genuine mistake but nonetheless it was a mistake which is unacceptable. As said I will try to find out what went wrong and hope that you will see fit to forgive the team at Discovery.
Thanks in advance,
Dan

[Jordy]

He's hidin on the down low after he has had time to reconsider his pointless view.:confused: :D
Nope. Not hiding at all. In the simplest terms, AS THE QUESTION IS WRITTEN WORD FOR WORD, the plane won't move...
Again, I understand that in theory, a plane will take off as the wheels have nothing to do with its' forward motion. However, in the simple terms that this question is posed, it's not moving, therefore, it won't fly.
Have wasted enough time trying to explain the difference between a "PLANE" which is where the speed is measured in this situation and a "WHEEL" which is never mentioned... :notam:
lol.....he is out of town, but i recieved this spy photo today :D :D :D
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k265/squirtnmyload/races/wheresjordy.jpg
Nice job. So much for my covert Bourbon Street franchising operation. Loose lips sink ships. :notam:

[squirt'nmyload]

Nice job. So much for my covert Bourbon Street franchising operation. Loose lips sink ships. :notam:
assclown!

[dhall50]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk