edelbrock victor BBF question...

[Riverat84]

at jegs.com, they say that the victor intake will NOT fit the '88-up production heads...i have the d3ve ones, how do i find out what year they are?
also, it said it will require 'port matching' to fit the stock iron heads. is that what i have? and if so, how hard and what is 'port matching'? thank you,
Reid

[Jetaholic]

Can't answer the question about Ford, but port matching is where they grind on the intake manifold port exits that mate to the head to make them exactly the same size as the port entrances on the head itself. Edelbrock makes the manifold with extra aluminum around the port holes to give you enough to grind off to accomplish this. Typically they use an intake gasket as the template and they grind on both the head and the manifold to make the port holes match the holes in the gasket, which makes the port holes the exact same size so that they'll mate together without having a "lip". This creates a smoother transition from the intake manifold to the cylinder head, which improves airflow into the cylinder.

[steelcomp]

D3='73. I wouldn't worry about port matching stock heads. I believe the Victor intake has CJ sized ports , which are much larger than the stock iron heads. Opening up the stock heads to match would be of no benefit.

[Squirtin Thunder]

As cast the Victor 460 is closer to the stock C8,C9 & D0 intake port than it is the cj port at least on the ones I have seen. Remember the marine 460s came with cj intakes even on unmatched D3 heads and they were reportedly worth 15hp over the stock '73 4V intake. Major port mis-match ! The D3 intake port is a little smaller than the C8,C9 & D0 intake port.

[LakesOnly]

they say that the victor intake will NOT fit the '88-up production heads...i have the d3ve ones, how do i find out what year they are?The reason that this intake will not fit 1988-up cylinder heads is because 1988 is the first year of the fuel injected 460, and they use completely incompatible cylinder heads due to their different port shapes (both the intake and exhaust ports). Bolt pattern is the same (int & exh), however ports will not line up anywhere near correctly. 1988 FI head is the E7TE; the later FI 460 head was the F3TE head.
Your D3VE cylinder heads are from the carburetted era. D3VE's were used from 1973-1985. Therefore the Victor 460 intake will bolt up just fine, and will actually bolt up to C8VE, C9VE, D0VE, D0OE, D1VE, D2VE, D2OE, D3VE, and E6TE cylinder heads.
Also, it said it will require 'port matching' to fit the stock iron heads. is that what i have? and if so, how hard and what is 'port matching'? thank you, This is where it gets interesting; read carefully.
First of all, you do not need to port match the intake runners and you may run the intake manifold straight out of the box, as cast.
The Victor 460 ships with passenger car-sized port runners, however they are on CJ/SCJ port centers. Bolt pattern is okay, but runner alignment on the passenger car heads is a little bit off (about 1/4-inch) when this intake is bolted to the standard issue passenger car cylinder heads. So again, the port size is correct, but the port alignment is not perfect. Conversely, this intake will align with the port centers on the D0OE CJ/SCJ head perfectly, but in this case the Victor port runners are still passenger car size and not CJ port size, so the intake needs to have it's intake runners enlarged to SCJ-size when used with these heads (or any aftermarket alumunum head that has the SCJ-sized ports).
Sound crazy? It's not, really. Edelbrock killed two birds with one stone, so to speak. Fact is that if you use this intake on a passenger car head, you DO NOT need to port the intake runners* (<---more on this later) as recommended. On the other hand, if you will be using the intake with SCJ port sized heads, then it is presumed that if you are building a large port engine then you are likely the type that can handle custom engine building and port the intake runners as needed.
Soooo...back to your D3VE-headed engine. Must you portmatch the inake runners? NO. I don't care what the website is suggesting. As fas as I'm concerned, that suggestion is little more than a liability statement, as in, "hey man, we told you the port runners don't match up perfectly."
Nor do they have to. Unless you are trying to find every last hp, then you might want to do some port matching, but not on the intake manifold runners* (<---remember, more on this later!). On a little ol' 460, you might find 7-8 hp at 7000 rpm...and that's it, because the Victor 460's runners work very, very effectively.
Basically, the port runners are not where the Victor 460 needs attention or can benefit from handiwork. Although they are a fine intake as cast, there is more power to be had from reworking the intake plenum. Doing so can result in over a 20hp gain in the same 7000 rpm scenario as mentioned above.
Okay, so back to "port matching" between this intake and the passenger car heads:
* If you insist on port matching, then only port match the cylinder head ports only and do not touch the Victor 460's intake manifold runner exits. Why? Remember that the Victor's runners are offset sideways by about 1/4-inch or so (depending on the specific runner in question), and so if you widen one wall of the cylinder head port (to match the intake's runner wall on that same side) and then grind the opposing wall of the intake runner (to match the head's port wall on the opposite side), you will have bellmouthed the transition and killed runner velocity. Therefore, the best way to "port match" the Victor/passenger car head transition is by only blending the side of the cylinder head's intake port that the air/fuel will ram into while entering the cylinder head's intake port. There is no need to grind the side of the intake manifolds runner(s) that are already "inside" the head's intake runner, as that fuel will transition into the head just fine. Performing this modification requires the creation of special, dedicated patterns that allow the fabricator to trace the Victor's port overlap onto the passenger car heads intake flange so that areas to grind can be established.
I think port matching is a waste of time in yor case, and that the as-cast D3VE heads are the biggest restriction in your fuel delivery and therefore need the most attention...any intake work will not be realized unless work on the heads is first performed.
LO

[steelcomp]

Good info Lakes...I had forgotten about the port layout differences, but you're right. AFA port matching......only blending the side of the cylinder head's intake port that the air/fuel will ram into while entering the cylinder head's intake port. ...this is what I was basically getting at...there really is no air/fuel ramming into the side of the intake port. The air will stack up against that surface creating a boundry layer and the flow is far less turbulent or restricted than worth the time and effort to do any port blending. I doubt you'd see anything on the dyno at any level. Same thing with the 351C 4V intake on 2V heads. Big improvement, but not worth port matching the heads. Just another bit of info on port mismatch. It's sometimes beneficial (some have done it intentionally) when an intake's runners are slightly smaller than the port opening. This can help in fighting reversion with large overlap cams.

[Riverat84]

The reason that this intake will not fit 1988-up cylinder heads is because 1988 is the first year of the fuel injected 460, and they use completely incompatible cylinder heads due to their different port shapes (both the intake and exhaust ports). Bolt pattern is the same (int & exh), however ports will not line up anywhere near correctly. 1988 FI head is the E7TE; the later FI 460 head was the F3TE head.
Your D3VE cylinder heads are from the carburetted era. D3VE's were used from 1973-1985. Therefore the Victor 460 intake will bolt up just fine, and will actually bolt up to C8VE, C9VE, D0VE, D0OE, D1VE, D2VE, D2OE, D3VE, and E6TE cylinder heads.
This is where it gets interesting; read carefully.
First of all, you do not need to port match the intake runners and you may run the intake manifold straight out of the box, as cast.
The Victor 460 ships with passenger car-sized port runners, however they are on CJ/SCJ port centers. Bolt pattern is okay, but runner alignment on the passenger car heads is a little bit off (about 1/4-inch) when this intake is bolted to the standard issue passenger car cylinder heads. So again, the port size is correct, but the port alignment is not perfect. Conversely, this intake will align with the port centers on the D0OE CJ/SCJ head perfectly, but in this case the Victor port runners are still passenger car size and not CJ port size, so the intake needs to have it's intake runners enlarged to SCJ-size when used with these heads (or any aftermarket alumunum head that has the SCJ-sized ports).
Sound crazy? It's not, really. Edelbrock killed two birds with one stone, so to speak. Fact is that if you use this intake on a passenger car head, you DO NOT need to port the intake runners* (<---more on this later) as recommended. On the other hand, if you will be using the intake with SCJ port sized heads, then it is presumed that if you are building a large port engine then you are likely the type that can handle custom engine building and port the intake runners as needed.
Soooo...back to your D3VE-headed engine. Must you portmatch the inake runners? NO. I don't care what the website is suggesting. As fas as I'm concerned, that suggestion is little more than a liability statement, as in, "hey man, we told you the port runners don't match up perfectly."
Nor do they have to. Unless you are trying to find every last hp, then you might want to do some port matching, but not on the intake manifold runners* (<---remember, more on this later!). On a little ol' 460, you might find 7-8 hp at 7000 rpm...and that's it, because the Victor 460's runners work very, very effectively.
Basically, the port runners are not where the Victor 460 needs attention or can benefit from handiwork. Although they are a fine intake as cast, there is more power to be had from reworking the intake plenum. Doing so can result in over a 20hp gain in the same 7000 rpm scenario as mentioned above.
Okay, so back to "port matching" between this intake and the passenger car heads:
* If you insist on port matching, then only port match the cylinder head ports only and do not touch the Victor 460's intake manifold runner exits. Why? Remember that the Victor's runners are offset sideways by about 1/4-inch or so (depending on the specific runner in question), and so if you widen one wall of the cylinder head port (to match the intake's runner wall on that same side) and then grind the opposing wall of the intake runner (to match the head's port wall on the opposite side), you will have bellmouthed the transition and killed runner velocity. Therefore, the best way to "port match" the Victor/passenger car head transition is by only blending the side of the cylinder head's intake port that the air/fuel will ram into while entering the cylinder head's intake port. There is no need to grind the side of the intake manifolds runner(s) that are already "inside" the head's intake runner, as that fuel will transition into the head just fine. Performing this modification requires the creation of special, dedicated patterns that allow the fabricator to trace the Victor's port overlap onto the passenger car heads intake flange so that areas to grind can be established.
I think port matching is a waste of time in yor case, and that the as-cast D3VE heads are the biggest restriction in your fuel delivery and therefore need the most attention...any intake work will not be realized unless work on the heads is first performed.
LO
lakes, thanx ALOT for the information! much more than i was asking for...im actually gonna lose some hp, because im downsizing from an offy TR...dont ask why...im just switching to a single carb setup...so im glad i wont have to do anything major at least...i bought another offy TR, but got it powdercoated the wrong color. i still might use it, but wanted to know, since i have the oppurtunity next week to get a clean ass victor for 100 bones. thanx for the info buddy!
Reid

[LakesOnly]

Good info Lakes...I had forgotten about the port layout differences, but you're right. AFA port matching.........the air will stack up against that surface creating a boundry layer and the flow is far less turbulent or restricted than worth the time and effort to do any port blending.OT, but incidentally there are some bumps and obstructions in the 460 iron exhaust ports that are better left untouched and not smoothed over for the same reason.
Fluid dynamics is an intersting thing. ;)
LO

[mirrorimage]

hey lakes what can you tell me about dooe-r heads.... i heard they were the best casted iron head for the ford preformance wise???????

[LakesOnly]

hey lakes what can you tell me about dooe-r heads.... i heard they were the best casted iron head for the ford preformance wise???????Of all the 429/460 iron wedge heads released for production, the D0OE-R offers the potential to support the greatest amount of power. They have the biggest ports, the biggest valves, the smallest combustion chambers, etc.
Of course, this alone does not make them the "best" head. There is no "best" head, only the most appropriate head for a given build; it's all about the engine package/combination. For most 460 lake boat builds for example, we have repeatedly shown that the D0VE head usually the better choice for the common performance-upgraded 460 than the D0OE-R head. A 521 stroker, on the other hand, might be a different story. Which head you select depends on what you are building...just like the cam profile, compression ratio, induction, etc.
LO

[mirrorimage]

what kind of difference does xhaust plates make on the fords ...ive seen a few with them and was woundering if it was worth the bucks to buy them...:idea:

[LakesOnly]

what kind of difference does xhaust plates make on the fords ...ive seen a few with them and was woundering if it was worth the bucks to buy them...:idea:Exhaust port plates...can they help? Well, yes.
But is it worth the trouble/time/effort/cost? Personally, I don't think so...not 95% of the time. Also, sometimes they may cause more headaches than reward.
Depends what you're building...and what you're building for. In most cases, knowing how to get power from the factory iron is what matters the most.
LO

[guitarchaz]

Good stuff! So the first letter is for the decade C=60 D=70 etc second is the
year C9=69 D0=70 D1=71 etc third is designation ford linc merc and finally the plant E for engine. the R in D0oE-R is special high perfomance. The supercobra jet or D0oE-R was a drag pack only head and dosn't make any
power til 4500rpm as Paul said they are great for a large engine with big cams. All depends on intended application. I just sold a set as I prefer the
svo alluminum head and would only use the iron one for a restoration project.
The port mis-match with the victor on your heads may actually be benificial
for atomization and will improve all around performance over the t.r. with those heads. just had to toss in my .02

[058]

Good stuff! So the first letter is for the decade C=60 D=70 etc second is the
year C9=69 D0=70 D1=71 etc third is designation ford linc merc and finally the plant E for engine. the R in D0oE-R is special high perfomance. The supercobra jet or D0oE-R was a drag pack only head and dosn't make any
power til 4500rpm as Paul said they are great for a large engine with big cams. All depends on intended application. I just sold a set as I prefer the
svo alluminum head and would only use the iron one for a restoration project.
The port mis-match with the victor on your heads may actually be benificial
for atomization and will improve all around performance over the t.r. with those heads. just had to toss in my .02
D0OE-R heads were not a "drag pack" only option, they were on every CJ and SCJ engine produced. A plainjane CJ engine used these heads with a iron intake manifold, a Rochester Quadrajet 4 bbl. and a hydraulic cam. SCJs used the same head with a solid lifter cam, aluminum intake manifold and Holley carb. Edit: The "R" is a casting designation and has nothing to do with "special high performance. You might be thinking of the "R" in the VIN number of passenger cars identifying the car as a high performance engine option such as the "R" code 427 Fairlanes, Galaxies, Mercurys etc. and later Mustang, Cougar 428 CJs

[LakesOnly]

Good stuff! So the first letter is for the decade C=60 D=70 etc second is the
year C9=69 D0=70 D1=71 etc third is designation ford linc merc and finally the plant E for engine. These identifying marks (C9VE, D0VE, etc.) are not actual casting numbers but are engineering revisions that are cast into the engine parts themselves. And they are what we enthusiasts refer to when identifying our factory iron, as they give not so much the year that the part was made but rather the revision of the part as specified by said engineering revision as you have decoded it above. (Actual date code is elsewhere on the part and is alphanumeric.) For example, D0OE-R heads were cast in 1969, 1970 and quite possibly 1971. Some D0VE head's that I currently have were cast in 1972, D3VE heads in 1982, etc.
...the R in D0oE-R is special high perfomance. The supercobra jet or D0oE-R was a drag pack only head and dosn't make any
power til 4500rpm as Paul said they are great for a large engine with big cams. All depends on intended application. I just sold a set as I prefer the
svo alluminum head and would only use the iron one for a restoration project.
The port mis-match with the victor on your heads may actually be benificial
for atomization and will improve all around performance over the t.r. with those heads. just had to toss in my .02To add what 058 contributed above, the D0OE-R heads were also used on 1971 429 Police Interceptor engines.
LO

[guitarchaz]

Okay Perhaps The Info I Have Is Incorrect As It States The P.i.
Head To Be Slightly Different And The Scj Engine To Be The One Using The Doore Heads. The "cobra Jet" Engine I Have Has C9ve Heads And Yes The Castings Were Made In Other Years.:) Engineering revision is correct and I didn't know they were used that late (d3ve in 80's) however LO would certainly
know more as I am mereley a hobiest when it comes to ford! Now back to fixin, or at least working on, Saabs

[LakesOnly]

Okay Perhaps The Info I Have Is Incorrect As It States The P.i. Head To Be Slightly Different And The Scj Engine To Be The One Using The Doore Heads. The PI-specific application head's casting number is D2OE-AB. They were used on 1972, 1973, and possibly 1974 PI engines (not too sure on the 1974 models). But for 1971 429 PI engines, the D0OE-R cylinder head was utilized because the PI head for the 1972 429 PI engines was not yet cast. (1970 and earlier PI engines were FE engines, usually FE 428PI's, and so for 1971 they basically used the 429 SCJ longblock while transitioning from/in between the '70 428PI to the '72 429PI.)
The "cobra Jet" Engine I Have Has C9VE Heads And Yes The Castings Were Made In Other Years. :) We must have well over 100 factory iron heads over here, in all casting numbers (except D20E PI's). I can tell you with absolute certainty that C9VE heads are not Cobra Jet heads. Therefore, either you have a non-CJ engine, or you have a CJ engine in which the D0OE-R heads were swapped out for dime-a-dozen passenger car C9VE heads. Also, is it possible that you are mistaking the 1969 429 "Thunderjet" engine for the "Cobra Jet" engine? (1969 C9VE heads were used on 1969 Thunderjet 429's.)
If you are using Tom Monroe's bood for reference data, forget it as a great deal of spec data that is printed in that particular book is erroneous.
LO

[guitarchaz]

You are truly a wealth of info, the engine was pulled from a 68 merc and had
an I.D. plate, I think it did say say thunder jet 375 hp? It ran great in my jet
boat for 2 seasons (was tired) front sump and all! Thanks for the info allways like to learn...
P.S. I am throwing that ford book away!

[dmontzsta]

I think Paul should write a book about BBFs, the ins and outs. You would sell a ton. Just think, you have typed a book of info just on these boards alone! :)
Let me know when you are ready to print, we do books also. :D

[guitarchaz]

I Agree, Hey While I Have Your Attention Y2k Said You Recomend
No Oil Cooler Or Two And A Remote Filter Can You Explain This??

[LakesOnly]

In regards to the SCJ's port centers being located differently than the passenger car port centers:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d173/y2keglide/DParkerCJPortMatch021.jpg
Above is an image of a pair of D0VE-C heads which are currently being port matched to an SCJ tunnel ram. Note that the CJ ports (traced over the passenger car ports using the CJ intake gasket) are not on the same port centers as the passenger car ports but are actually offset one way or the other (depending on which port we are looking at). The 429 Cobra Jet port centers differ from the passenger car port centers. So, DO NOT simply enlarge the passenger car port entries equally all the way around the port without the first tracing the CJ gasket, because as you can see proper port entry location is offset in the case of the CJ portmatch!
This is particularly noteworthy if you are bolting a passenger car runner-sized Victor 460 intake to a passenger car port-sized cylinder head, because the Victor 460's port runners--although passenger car port sized--are actually on CJ port centers as described above in this thread. So you can imagine the mismatch Not a big deal in a car or maybe even a 5000 rpm jet boat, but if you are looking to extract every last hp for a competition, then you might like to know about this and portmatch the Victor 460 accordingly. Again, a Victor portmatch to the D0VE heads is not mandatory or even that necessary in 90% of the cases, and you won't find any performance improvement unless you are splitting hairs.
LO

[Ralph Brunt]

bump for good info

[GunninGopher]

I think Paul should write a book about BBFs, the ins and outs. You would sell a ton. Just think, you have typed a book of info just on these boards alone! :)
Let me know when you are ready to print, we do books also. :D
You can sign me up for 2 copies if you ever publish a book. I've been reading your posts for years. I'd be willing to pay for a simple composition of you more informative postings.
Jets Only is the reason I kept checking back to see if this forum was brought back.
I'M SO STOKED RIGHT NOW BECAUSE JETS ONLY IS BACK, AND THEY KEPT THE OLD THREADS!!!!!

[Sanger Jet]

Paul was a big help to me when I built my 533BBF