Church Volenteer shoots gunman and saves hundreds

[delemorte]

this is what im talkin about.
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) — A Colorado Springs megachurch instituted security precautions after a shooting at a Denver area mission center earlier Sunday, saving hundreds of lives at the New Life Church, senior Pastor Brady Boyd said Monday.
A New Life parishioner acting as a security guard shot and killed a gunman who entered the church Sunday afternoon after he had gotten no more than 50 feet inside the building, Boyd said.
Two teens, identified by police as Rachel Works, 16, and Stephanie Works, 18, were killed in what Boyd called a senseless, random attack.
But he said the female security guard was a hero in preventing further bloodshed.
She probably saved over a hundred lives, Boyd said of the guard, whom he said is not a law enforcement officer and used her personal weapon.
Security precautions taken after police were searching a home in suburban Denver early Monday as they looked for clues in deadly attacks at religious institutions over the weekend.
The pastor also said New Life had taken extra precautions Sunday after hearing of the attack in Arvada, Colorado, early Sunday morning, in which a gunman killed two people after he was refused lodging at Youth With a Mission live-in Christian missionary center.
Hundreds of lives were saved yesterday because of the plan that was put in place, Boyd said.
Authorities say the Arvada and Colorado Springs shootings may be related, and overnight police from Arvada executed a search warrant obtained by Colorado Springs police for an address in the Denver suburb of Englewood. Authorities did not say how the address may relate to the case.
Lt. Skip Arms of the Colorado Springs Police Department said that no motive has been determined for the gunman at the second shooting. The gunman’s identity has not been released.
Police in the two cities say different weapons were used in the shootings — a handgun in Arvada and a rifle in Colorado Springs. Watch police, heartbroken pastor react to attacks
The first incident took place Sunday at about 12:30 a.m. at Youth With a Mission in Arvada. Police said a man with a beard, wearing a dark jacket, glasses, and skullcap, entered the facility, got into a dispute with a staff member about whether he could stay there for the night, and then opened fire.
Investigators tried to track the gunman through fresh snow with the help of dogs, but lost his trail in a heavily walked area, Deputy Chief Gary Creager of Arvada police said.
Then shortly after 1 p.m. in Colorado Springs — about 80 miles south of Arvada — a black-clad gunman opened fire on worshippers at New Life. Watch man describe shooting inside church
Youth With a Mission co-founder Peter Warren identified the two killed staff members as Tiffany Johnson, 26, and Philip Crouse, 24. He said they were cleaning up from a Saturday night Christmas banquet when the attack occurred.
Another staff member, 24-year-old Dan Griebenow, was in critical condition with a bullet in his neck as of Sunday night, and a second survivor, Charlie Blanch, was shot in the legs, the group said on its Web site.
found here.

[Old Texan]

So it's not safe to go to the mall, go to church, or rob Joe Horn's neighbor's home.:idea:
They're probably gonna have to play the SuperBowl on the deck of an aircraft carrier this year to be safe the way things are going......any approaching canoes get blown out of the water......:rolleyes:

[delemorte]

I guarentee that if that guy knew there were armed people in that church he would have picked a different church.

[Moneypitt]

I saw a news deal with her being interviewed/press conference...Wow, not what you would consider your average female security guard......Very nice, living and attending a church in Colorado, but she sure has that TEXAS GIRL look to her........Great job on her part, she had a hand gun and he had a rifle, yet she advanced towards him and apparently dropped him......(They are saying his wound may have been self inflected) Still, she is a true heroine, "with God by her side".............I still think she has a lot of Texas in her family tree............(at least in her trigger finger).............MP

[Nokomis]

Wow, not what you would consider your average female security guard......
The media for some reason is spinning it that she was some kind of rent-a-cop, but she actually is a church parishioner with a concealed carry permit not a church employee.

[centerhill condor]

can I get a "hell yea"?
CC

[Moneypitt]

The media for some reason is spinning it that she was some kind of rent-a-cop, but she actually is a church parishioner with a concealed carry permit not a church employee.
It is because of the previous shooting. The Church asked for security personel, and she had a carry permit...Ex LE? Reserve LE?....Maybe, but still did the JOB......Another scumbag bites the dust.........Hell Ya!!.....MP

[homelessinaz]

It is because of the previous shooting. The Church asked for security personel, and she had a carry permit...Ex LE? Reserve LE?....Maybe, but still did the JOB......Another scumbag bites the dust.........Hell Ya!!.....MP
Shouldn't that headline read, "Church hires armed guard, and two teenagers STILL wind up dead"?
Just a thought, here's what Jesus thinks about it:
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Would Jesus have shot this man? If Jesus were standing right there in that church, would he have run up and given that lady a high-five? You think he would've said, "Another scumbag bites the dust"?
This is hypocritical on the part of that church. Maybe instead of having a crucifixion scene in their sanctuary, they should have Jesus in a SWAT uniform getting ready to shoot it out with the Romans. Unfcking believable.
Homeless

[Moneypitt]

It is unbelivable the amount of oxygen that gets wasted on a daily basis...MP

[homelessinaz]

It is unbelivable the amount of oxygen that gets wasted on a daily basis...MP
What I said is a waste of oxygen? I thought it was highly relevant and well thought out. Is a church supposed to be bound by the doctrine it espouses or not? Are these the same people who are protesting a woman's right to choose? If so, where do they get off?
Homeless

[QuickJet]

Shouldn't that headline read, "Church hires armed guard, and two teenagers STILL wind up dead"?
Just a thought, here's what Jesus thinks about it:
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Would Jesus have shot this man? If Jesus were standing right there in that church, would he have run up and given that lady a high-five? You think he would've said, "Another scumbag bites the dust"?
This is hypocritical on the part of that church. Maybe instead of having a crucifixion scene in their sanctuary, they should have Jesus in a SWAT uniform getting ready to shoot it out with the Romans. Unfcking believable.
Homeless
So you are saying that he should of been allowed to continue killing as many people as possable?
This wasn't a religious killing on the part of the armed woman, but the preservation of life, of which Jesus would whole heartedly support.

[QuickJet]

What I said is a waste of oxygen? I thought it was highly relevant and well thought out. Is a church supposed to be bound by the doctrine it espouses or not? Are these the same people who are protesting a woman's right to choose? If so, where do they get off?
Homeless
Don't get offended, but you are a complete waste on so many levels.

[homelessinaz]

This wasn't a religious killing on the part of the armed woman, but the preservation of life, of which Jesus would whole heartedly support.
Dude, are you a Christian? If not, I can accept that you would have absolutely no idea whatsoever about the nature of Jesus Christ and that you would pull that stupid answer out of your ass, but, if you are in any way inclined to believe that Jesus was divine, or even that he had a lot of neat stuff to say, where in the HELL do you find support your opinion in the Bible?
Name one instance of Jesus giving a big "HELL YEAH" for the taking of life.
Jesus NEVER condoned his disciples killing, ever! When the mob came to get Jesus, Peter swung his sword in defense of Jesus and cut off man's ear.
Matt. 26:52 "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Matt. 26:53 "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
This is not taken out of context. Jesus believed that it was better to die in the name of the gospel than to kill, even if that meant dying!
Any church that tries to say they are followers of Christ and yet hires an armed guard who kills someone is trying to have it both ways.
WTF?
Homeless

[QuickJet]

Dude, are you a Christian? If not, I can accept that you would have absolutely no idea whatsoever about the nature of Jesus Christ and that you would pull that stupid answer out of your ass, but, if you are in any way inclined to believe that Jesus was divine, or even that he had a lot of neat stuff to say, where in the HELL do you find support your opinion in the Bible?
Name one instance of Jesus giving a big "HELL YEAH" for the taking of life.
Jesus NEVER condoned his disciples killing, ever! When the mob came to get Jesus, Peter swung his sword in defense of Jesus and cut off man's ear.
Matt. 26:52 "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Matt. 26:53 "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
This is not taken out of context. Jesus believed that it was better to die in the name of the gospel than to kill, even if that meant dying!
Any church that tries to say they are followers of Christ and yet hires an armed guard who kills someone is trying to have it both ways.
WTF?
Homeless
"An eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth."
Let's not forget this little tid bit from the almighty himself
"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers"
And like I said before, this was'nt a religious killing (one done in the name of God) it was done in the defense of man.
God stated that we must follow the "law of man". Law of man allows for the protection of one's life by using deadly force.
Now go ahead and google another irrelevent reply since you have never stepped in ANY church nor are you a follower of Christ.

[homelessinaz]

"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers"
Okay, so are you TRYING to be funny with this one, or did it just work out that way? That's not a passage from "the almighty himself", ass. The passage from the Bible that Jules has memorized was mostly made up by Quentin Tarantino and Samuel L. Jackson. The only part that's similar to what the Bible says is the part where he says, "And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee." The parts about the righteous man and the shepherd are NOT SCRIPTURAL.
Oh yeah, since you're accusing me of googling my replies, it's obvious you're googling your replies, otherwise "vengeance" would've been misspelled.
Bitch.
God stated that we must follow the "law of man". Law of man allows for the protection of one's life by using deadly force.
The "Law of Man" also allows for abortion, doesn't it? Will you please be so kind as to tell those "right to life nuts" that it's okay to suck the brains out of babies, because it's approved by the law of man.
All I'm asking for is some consistency!
Now go ahead and google another irrelevent reply since you have never stepped in ANY church nor are you a follower of Christ.
I did the Jesus thing in my pre-teens. I got over it around the same time I got over wrestling and comic books, but since neo-cons want to use Jesus worship as a plank in their political platform, I'll see them and raise them.
Homeless
Ezekiel 25:17

[centerhill condor]

Shouldn't that headline read, "Church hires armed guard, and two teenagers STILL wind up dead"?
Just a thought, here's what Jesus thinks about it:
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Would Jesus have shot this man? If Jesus were standing right there in that church, would he have run up and given that lady a high-five? You think he would've said, "Another scumbag bites the dust"?
This is hypocritical on the part of that church. Maybe instead of having a crucifixion scene in their sanctuary, they should have Jesus in a SWAT uniform getting ready to shoot it out with the Romans. Unfcking believable.
Homeless
That's rich...since we're quoting scripture...Paul to the Romans, "vengence is mine sayeth the Lord, I will repay"...This pistol packin' momma was the hand of God and vengence was swift. Make note to self.
Did not the hand of God liberate the children of God from the Egyptians? Did he "smote" the enemies of Israel? Why wouldn't he do that today?
I put your questions right up there with "would Jesus wear a Rolex"? As if he would have to be "on time"...
Jesus knew he had to die for our sins...these young troubled soules weren't at the church to grant remission of sins nor to punish the church for past transgressions. They were there to meet "Allmighty God"...they just didn't plan on the express train!
Not all hypocrits are in church on Sunday..
Since we're on the Bible topic...which two chapters are identical?
CC

[ULTRA26 # 1]

"An eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth."
Let's not forget this little tid bit from the almighty himself
"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers"
And like I said before, this was'nt a religious killing (one done in the name of God) it was done in the defense of man.
God stated that we must follow the "law of man". Law of man allows for the protection of one's life by using deadly force.
Now go ahead and google another irrelevent reply since you have never stepped in ANY church nor are you a follower of Christ.
Correct me if I'm wrong but is the Eye for an Eye bs from the Old Testament?

[Moneypitt]

What I said is a waste of oxygen? I thought it was highly relevant and well thought out. Is a church supposed to be bound by the doctrine it espouses or not? Are these the same people who are protesting a woman's right to choose? If so, where do they get off?
Homeless
Nah, it has nothing to do with what you said, that would just be hot air, (MMGW). I just noted that alot of oxygen was wasted on a daily basis. You do the math........
The facts are simple here. This moron armed himself to the teeth intent on mass killings. The woman in question here, an ex Law Enforcement Officer, shot the motherfocker dead. End of story. Trying to organize a movement of hate in her, or her churches' direction, is not only stupid, it is wrong. He WAS a killer, he isn't a killer any longer. What if your wife and kids were there that morning to worship your God? If they were in the line of fire would your comments here be any different?..........Another scumbag bites the dust, HELL YEAH..............MP

[QuickJet]

Okay, so are you TRYING to be funny with this one, or did it just work out that way? That's not a passage from "the almighty himself", ass. The passage from the Bible that Jules has memorized was mostly made up by Quentin Tarantino and Samuel L. Jackson. The only part that's similar to what the Bible says is the part where he says, "And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee." The parts about the righteous man and the shepherd are NOT SCRIPTURAL.
Oh yeah, since you're accusing me of googling my replies, it's obvious you're googling your replies, otherwise "vengeance" would've been misspelled.
Bitch.
The "Law of Man" also allows for abortion, doesn't it? Will you please be so kind as to tell those "right to life nuts" that it's okay to suck the brains out of babies, because it's approved by the law of man.
All I'm asking for is some consistency!
I did the Jesus thing in my pre-teens. I got over it around the same time I got over wrestling and comic books, but since neo-cons want to use Jesus worship as a plank in their political platform, I'll see them and raise them.
Homeless
Ezekiel 25:17
I don't google anything, unlike yourself.
So you want consistency between killing babies, mass murderers and a woman who happens to save the lives of hundreds??
You are insane. Your argument has no foundation therefore you are attempting to fabricate one. Simple as that. Do you really think you are going to change our minds to your insane way of thinking?
Are there any other idiots in your flock or are you the only one?
I will wait until 2 pm when you get up out of bed for your response.

[steve d]

Nah, it has nothing to do with what you said, that would just be hot air, (MMGW). I just noted that alot of oxygen was wasted on a daily basis. You do the math........
The facts are simple here. This moron armed himself to the teeth intent on mass killings. The woman in question here, an ex Law Enforcement Officer, shot the motherfocker dead. End of story. Trying to organize a movement of hate in her, or her churches' direction, is not only stupid, it is wrong. He WAS a killer, he isn't a killer any longer. What if your wife and kids were there that morning to worship your God? If they were in the line of fire would your comments here be any different?..........Another scumbag bites the dust, HELL YEAH..............MP
Beat me to it Ray. Was about to google "REALITY"....I see you already did it.
...C'mon homelessazz, Answer the question. In my book a "Hell Yeah"
wouldn't scratch the surface!

[donzi5150]

I guarentee that if that guy knew there were armed people in that church he would have picked a different church.
Exactly what the 2nd ammendment is about as well as the "law" of deterrence........how many wackos are going to walk into a police station or a military base to do their deads? All the anti gun advocates for legal citizens CAN KISS MY ASS!:mad:

[asch]

Got this a couple hours ago:
GUNMAN KILLED HIMSELF
the el paso county coroner's office has completed the autopsies on the three people who died from the shootings at new life church. the death of mathew murray has been ruled a suicide. murray was struck multiple times by a new life church security guard, which put him down ,and then fired a single round, killing himself. stephanie and racheal works were both killed by a single gunshot to the torso and their deaths were ruled homicides. their deaths marked the 25th and 26th homicides of the year in colorado springs.

[delemorte]

Got this a couple hours ago:
GUNMAN KILLED HIMSELF
the el paso county coroner's office has completed the autopsies on the three people who died from the shootings at new life church. the death of mathew murray has been ruled a suicide. murray was struck multiple times by a new life church security guard, which put him down ,and then fired a single round, killing himself. stephanie and racheal works were both killed by a single gunshot to the torso and their deaths were ruled homicides. their deaths marked the 25th and 26th homicides of the year in colorado springs.
Yup,
He saved us some tax dollars by sparing us a trial.. Weak SOB..... if your going to blow your brains out then be my guest.. By why kill people you dont know??? So senseless...

[homelessinaz]

Nah, it has nothing to do with what you said, that would just be hot air, (MMGW). I just noted that alot of oxygen was wasted on a daily basis. You do the math........
The facts are simple here. This moron armed himself to the teeth intent on mass killings. The woman in question here, an ex Law Enforcement Officer, shot the motherfocker dead. End of story. Trying to organize a movement of hate in her, or her churches' direction, is not only stupid, it is wrong. He WAS a killer, he isn't a killer any longer. What if your wife and kids were there that morning to worship your God? If they were in the line of fire would your comments here be any different?..........Another scumbag bites the dust, HELL YEAH..............MP
Okay, so the math makes sense, one life lost versus many lives (potentially) lost, but my point was that arming someone to kill people isn't Christ like. Christ didn't go around arming people.
Homeless

[homelessinaz]

Yup,
He saved us some tax dollars by sparing us a trial.. Weak SOB..... if your going to blow your brains out then be my guest.. By why kill people you dont know??? So senseless...
So, if he killed HIMSELF and wasn't killed by the off duty redneck, explain to me again why it's so great to have a concealed carry law?
Homeless

[QuickJet]

Okay, so the math makes sense, one life lost versus many lives (potentially) lost, but my point was that arming someone to kill people isn't Christ like. Christ didn't go around arming people.
Homeless
Read the Bible!. Chrisitans were always at war with someone, and yes, killing them in the process. Defending one's right to live is very Christ like.
However, this has nothing to do with what happend since the woman in question didn't kill in the name of God or the gospel, but rather in defense of her fellow men.

[AzMandella]

So, if he killed HIMSELF and wasn't killed by the off duty redneck, explain to me again why it's so great to have a concealed carry law?
Homeless
So maybe withhis last ounce of strength he offed himself but by taking him down I'm sure more lives were saved than if nobody did anything. You just can't stand the fact that this accurately disputes your theory that it is better for people to not have guns. Now go ahead and twist it any way you want. You will still be wrong.

[asch]

Yup,
He saved us some tax dollars by sparing us a trial.. Weak SOB..... if your going to blow your brains out then be my guest.. By why kill people you dont know??? So senseless...
This guy apparently had in for Christians after leaving the church. (merry friggin Christmas huh. Jeez) He had been online blogging and ranting about killing some church people. The website is the 'association of former Pentecostals'. Bunch of disgruntled ex's I guess.
I use to live in Colorado Springs. That church holds a lot of people.
He was allegedly packin' 1K rounds. Coulda been much, much, MUCH worse.
Hopefully copycats don't start popping up, Tis' the season after all.

[homelessinaz]

So maybe withhis last ounce of strength he offed himself but by taking him down I'm sure more lives were saved than if nobody did anything. You just can't stand the fact that this accurately disputes your theory that it is better for people to not have guns. Now go ahead and twist it any way you want. You will still be wrong.
Sir, I'm not twisting anything at all. The Bible says in many places that you shall not kill, and as I paraphrase from last night's scripture, Mark 8, 35, he who attempts to save his own life loses it, but he who gives his life for the gospel has everlasting life.
In other words, as a Christian, your job is to spread the gospel. Don't worry about the smoting and the eye for eye stuff, that's God's job, and you need to stay out of it.
God doesn't kill and doens't condone violence of any sort. If he did, we'd call him Muhammed, but he doesn't, so it's Jesus.
Jesus welcomed the people whom the gunman shot and sent to heaven that night, and he would've been just as able to welcome the ones who weren't shot, he's Jesus and he'd have gotten it all done. I don't think Jesus or God really care who shows up when, because theorhetically we're all supposed to go to wherever we're supposed to wind up as written in the lamb's book of life, so what doesn Jesus care? He's omnescient, so he knows when we're coming. In theory, the 4 victims form the shootings were supposed to die yesterday, because of the wrongful act of the shooter who killed them. Also, the gunman was pre-destined to die yesterday, from the wrongful act of the off duty redneck who shot him.
Final score, 5 dead, 5 wounded and TWO wrong acts of violence, one being the all day long ast of violence on the part of Matthew Murray, and one wrongful act on the part of the off duty Hooters waitress with the Jesus gun.
Every killing was a bad killing.
Homeless

[Moneypitt]

Sir,
Homeless
Mr. Homeless, I deleted everything you said to shorten my response. This killer is dead. His rampage of death was snuffed out quickly. The LADY that confronted this "rifle carrying whacko" with a hand gun, as a witness put it, ............"She walked into the gun fight like she was walking into a store, firing all the way"...........WOW..........FOCCCCING WOW........This LADY, with his "Holyness on her shoulder", stroud into RIFLE fire to put a "FEW" into this KILLER....."Az homeless", please tell me why she doesn't deserve the HIGHEST level State and Federal Medals??......Damn man, she saved untold amounts of lives....If I could affort the gas, I would drive up there and kiss her dead on the lips!!!!!!!.........YOU CAN NOT DENY THIS LADY IS NOT ONLY A HERO.......SHES "BAD TO THE BONE"........(FACT: IF SHE AINT, THEN THE TERM MEANS NOTHING!!!!!!!....RAY.......
PS:
Az homeless, if you can find any fault in the above post, your next breath will be a prime example of wasting oxygen.........

[AzMandella]

Sir, I'm not twisting anything at all. The Bible says in many places that you shall not kill, and as I paraphrase from last night's scripture, Mark 8, 35, he who attempts to save his own life loses it, but he who gives his life for the gospel has everlasting life.
In other words, as a Christian, your job is to spread the gospel. Don't worry about the smoting and the eye for eye stuff, that's God's job, and you need to stay out of it.
God doesn't kill and doens't condone violence of any sort. If he did, we'd call him Muhammed, but he doesn't, so it's Jesus.
Jesus welcomed the people whom the gunman shot and sent to heaven that night, and he would've been just as able to welcome the ones who weren't shot, he's Jesus and he'd have gotten it all done. I don't think Jesus or God really care who shows up when, because theorhetically we're all supposed to go to wherever we're supposed to wind up as written in the lamb's book of life, so what doesn Jesus care? He's omnescient, so he knows when we're coming. In theory, the 4 victims form the shootings were supposed to die yesterday, because of the wrongful act of the shooter who killed them. Also, the gunman was pre-destined to die yesterday, from the wrongful act of the off duty redneck who shot him.
Final score, 5 dead, 5 wounded and TWO wrong acts of violence, one being the all day long ast of violence on the part of Matthew Murray, and one wrongful act on the part of the off duty Hooters waitress with the Jesus gun.
Every killing was a bad killing.
Homeless
Well you are doing a fine job of twisting shiat around. I never mentioned religion one bit. I was refering to the fact that a person carrying a gun managed to take down a psycho before he could kill more people. An act that contridicts your belief that people have no need to own guns to defend themselves or others because the highly trained police are more than capable of handling all crime that comes our way. Bythe way where were the police during this one. Nowhere to be foud except after the fact. I suppose that if you were there and she managed to save your life you would rather have been killed than to thank her.

[delemorte]

Guys,
Why do you indulge this idiot.. he is simply trying to get a reaction from you.. Ignore this troll and maybe he will co camp under someone else's bridge.

[asch]

Don't want to turn this into a theological discussion but you're use of these verses is inaccurate.
Matt. 26:52 "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
This is a reference to capital punishment by the "sword of the state" for the offense of murder. This is well known.
Similarly, "thou shall not kill" is well known among theologians for being mistranslated from the Hebrew language. The corrected translation is "you shall not murder." It's really just the result of sloppy work on the part of the scholars that translated the scriptures from the original documents, notably the KJV in the 16th century. The Schofield bible is regarded as the one of the most reliable of all the English translations but still has its errors.
The mistranslations and misinterpretations have lead to the apparent contradictions in the bible we have today. It's ONE of the reasons people like you and Christians alike misquote and misuse and misapply the scriptures.
This is not taken out of context.
Jesus believed that it was better to die in the name of the gospel than to kill, even if that meant dying!
Actually that IS totally out of context. In regard to THIS incident, the shooting has nothing to do with presenting the gospel vs. death. It's about the right to defend oneself against murderous intent. Way off the mark there.
Any church that tries to say they are followers of Christ and yet hires an armed guard who kills someone is trying to have it both ways.
Not true.
No contradiction here...When I lived in Houston, my church had MANY Houston PD in its congregation. During service, there was always either 1 or 2 officers standing guard at the entrance and regularly patrolling the parking lot.
I can guarantee there were more than a few pieces of iron occupying some of the vehicles. Should a gunman try to pull this kind of thing at this church, I can tell you it wouldn't last long. But thats Texas for ya too;)
Mark 8, 35, he who attempts to save his own life loses it, but he who gives his life for the gospel has everlasting life
Again, this is inaccurate. This is a reference to SPIRITUAL life, not being able to save oneself on the basis of his own works and therefore losing everlasting life after physical death.
There are many references in the bible to "God" killing. One example that comes to mind is the 185,000 Assyrians in 721 BC in the old testament when Sennacherib attempted to overthrow Jerusalem. In one fell swoop "God" killed them all in one morning.
I would highly suggest entering into some kind of academic study of the scriptures under qualified professionals before you continue to arbitrarily throw verses around without fully understanding their meanings as they were originally intended. Unqualified and inapplicable ramblings about Jesus doesn't help.

[delemorte]

Don't want to turn this into a theological discussion but you're use of these verses is inaccurate.
This is a reference to capital punishment by the "sword of the state" for the offense of murder. This is well known.
Similarly, "thou shall not kill" is well known among theologians for being mistranslated from the Hebrew language. The corrected translation is "you shall not murder." It's really just the result of sloppy work on the part of the scholars that translated the scriptures from the original documents, notably the KJV in the 16th century. The Schofield bible is regarded as the one of the most reliable of all the English translations but still has its errors.
The mistranslations and misinterpretations have lead to the apparent contradictions in the bible we have today. It's ONE of the reasons people like you and Christians alike misquote and misuse and misapply the scriptures.
Actually that IS totally out of context. In regard to THIS incident, the shooting has nothing to do with presenting the gospel vs. death. It's about the right to defend oneself against murderous intent. Way off the mark there.
Not true.
No contradiction here...When I lived in Houston, my church had MANY Houston PD in its congregation. During service, there was always either 1 or 2 officers standing guard at the entrance and regularly patrolling the parking lot.
I can guarantee there were more than a few pieces of iron occupying some of the vehicles. Should a gunman try to pull this kind of thing at this church, I can tell you it wouldn't last long. But thats Texas for ya too;)
Again, this is inaccurate. This is a reference to SPIRITUAL life, not being able to save oneself on the basis of his own works and therefore losing everlasting life after physical death.
There are many references in the bible to "God" killing. One example that comes to mind is the 185,000 Assyrians in 721 BC in the old testament when Sennacherib attempted to overthrow Jerusalem. In one fell swoop "God" killed them all in one morning.
I would highly suggest entering into some kind of academic study of the scriptures under qualified professionals before you continue to arbitrarily throw verses around without fully understanding their meanings as they were originally intended. Unqualified and inapplicable ramblings about Jesus doesn't help.
PWNED!!!!

[homelessinaz]

Don't want to turn this into a theological discussion but you're use of these verses is inaccurate.
This is a reference to capital punishment by the "sword of the state" for the offense of murder. This is well known.
Similarly, "thou shall not kill" is well known among theologians for being mistranslated from the Hebrew language. The corrected translation is "you shall not murder." It's really just the result of sloppy work on the part of the scholars that translated the scriptures from the original documents, notably the KJV in the 16th century. The Schofield bible is regarded as the one of the most reliable of all the English translations but still has its errors.
The mistranslations and misinterpretations have lead to the apparent contradictions in the bible we have today. It's ONE of the reasons people like you and Christians alike misquote and misuse and misapply the scriptures.
Actually that IS totally out of context. In regard to THIS incident, the shooting has nothing to do with presenting the gospel vs. death. It's about the right to defend oneself against murderous intent. Way off the mark there.
Not true.
No contradiction here...When I lived in Houston, my church had MANY Houston PD in its congregation. During service, there was always either 1 or 2 officers standing guard at the entrance and regularly patrolling the parking lot.
I can guarantee there were more than a few pieces of iron occupying some of the vehicles. Should a gunman try to pull this kind of thing at this church, I can tell you it wouldn't last long. But thats Texas for ya too;)
Again, this is inaccurate. This is a reference to SPIRITUAL life, not being able to save oneself on the basis of his own works and therefore losing everlasting life after physical death.
There are many references in the bible to "God" killing. One example that comes to mind is the 185,000 Assyrians in 721 BC in the old testament when Sennacherib attempted to overthrow Jerusalem. In one fell swoop "God" killed them all in one morning.
I would highly suggest entering into some kind of academic study of the scriptures under qualified professionals before you continue to arbitrarily throw verses around without fully understanding their meanings as they were originally intended. Unqualified and inapplicable ramblings about Jesus doesn't help.
All of your references are Old Testament. That makes a difference unless you're Jewish.
Why are Christians now roaming the grounds of the church with weapons? Texas Christians and other religious zealots didn't learn anything from Waco?
Homeless

[asch]

All of your references are Old Testament. That makes a difference unless you're Jewish.
You asked for an example anywhere in the bible where "God" did the killing and I gave you one. Now your backpedaling.
If you want NT stuff, I got em but its late and I'm hitting the sack.
Why are Christians now roaming the grounds of the church with weapons? Texas Christians and other religious zealots didn't learn anything from Waco?
And another thing...nobody did any murdering or killing in the name of God here and as a matter of fact nobody's done anything in the name of God except you turning this into something its not.

[homelessinaz]

You asked for an example anywhere in the bible where "God" did the killing and I gave you one. Now your backpedaling. And another thing...nobody did any murdering or killing in the name of God here and as a matter of fact nobody's done anything in the name of God except you turning this into something its not.
I think the distinction between New Testament and Old Testament is VERY important to my point. It's basically the different between two very distinct religions.
As far as interjecting God and holiness and the Holy Spirit into this debate, I'd have been happy to have been the first to make this a religious issue, but Assam beat me to it with all of her quotes about God helping her kill this guy. She's the one who turned homocide into a religious experience, not me!
Homeless

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I think the distinction between New Testament and Old Testament is VERY important to my point. It's basically the different between two very distinct religions.
As far as interjecting God and holiness and the Holy Spirit into this debate, I'd have been happy to have been the first to make this a religious issue, but Assam beat me to it with all of her quotes about God helping her kill this guy. She's the one who turned homocide into a religious experience, not me!
Homeless
I said this in another thread.
How in the hell did this become a religious discussion. A mad man goes on a shooting spree, an armed guard assists in stopping the terror. The guard is a hero end of story. It makes no difference if this occurred at a church or at a Jack in the Box. Homeless, WTF are you whining about. If you make valid points I will be more than happy to listen and agree. This isn't one of them.

[delemorte]

Your point is non-existant.
Christians follow the New Testament in addition to the Old Testament not instead of it. The Old Testament is not a book that is only followed by Jews.
PWNED again...
Even i know better than to quote the bible to some hard line christians...
Homeless.... Just STFU...

[eliminatedsprinter]

PWNED again...
Even i know better than to quote the bible to some hard line christians...
Homeless.... Just STFU...
I learned that one long ago as well. :)

[eliminatedsprinter]

Guys,
Why do you indulge this idiot..
For the comedy??;)

[homelessinaz]

PWNED again...
Even i know better than to quote the bible to some hard line christians...
Homeless.... Just STFU...
So, Christians are still sacficing animals to atone for their sins?
Homeless

[QuickJet]

So, Christians are still sacficing animals to atone for their sins?
Homeless
http://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Moneypitt]

[QUOTE=homelessinaz;\homeless[/QUOTE]
Once again I have chosen to delete your rambling.........Eat shit, swallow hard, accept your ramblinging as crap..........MP..........
Dude, you really don't want to have a battle of the minds here while you are so grossly un armed............

[homelessinaz]

Once again I have chosen to delete your rambling.........Eat shit, swallow hard, accept your ramblinging as crap..........MP..........Dude, you really don't want to have a battle of the minds here while you are so grossly un armed............
Good point. Well said. Mega dittos.
Homeless

[Moneypitt]

Good point. Well said. Mega dittos.
Homeless
I smell a rat.........That was way too easy................Why do I feel like I just kissed my aunt?...........Anyome run over a green canoe tonight? MP

[OGShocker]

Got this a couple hours ago:
GUNMAN KILLED HIMSELF
the el paso county coroner's office has completed the autopsies on the three people who died from the shootings at new life church. the death of mathew murray has been ruled a suicide. murray was struck multiple times by a new life church security guard, which put him down ,and then fired a single round, killing himself. stephanie and racheal works were both killed by a single gunshot to the torso and their deaths were ruled homicides. their deaths marked the 25th and 26th homicides of the year in colorado springs.
He killed himself the minute he walked up against an armed citizen. Had she not been there the body count would have been MUCH higher.
Homeless, where do you get the power to run your computer? ;)

[fc-pilot]

God doesn't kill and doens't condone violence of any sort. If he did, we'd call him Muhammed, but he doesn't, so it's Jesus.
Homeless
Did you ever actually READ the Bible?
Paul

[delemorte]

yes.. only law enforcement personel are responsible enough to own a fire arm... What a dummy.. i hope they prosicute him.
http://www.kptv.com/news/14882840/detail.html