Top Fuel Dragster info:

[Sleeper CP]

My brother sent this to me I thought I would share it with you guy's.
Most of the info looks correct. What do you think? :
>
> Subject: Top Fuel Dragsters Acceleration (mind boggling)
>
>
> Acceleration factor
> One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower
> than the first 4 rows at the NASCAR Daytona 500.
>
> Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1 1/2 gallons of nitro
> methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate
> with 25% less energy being produced.
>
> A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the
> dragster supercharger.
>
> With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the
> fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition. Cylinders
> run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.
>
> At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitro methane the flame
> front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.
>
> Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the
> stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water
> vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
>
> Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an
> arc welder in each cylinder.
>
> Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during one pass. After half-way,
> the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at
> 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
>
> If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the
> affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder
> heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.
>
> In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at an
> average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track, the
> launch acceleration approaches 8G's.
>
> Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading
> this sentence.
>
> Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light!
>
> Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under
> load.
>
> The red-line is actually quite high at 9500 rpm.
>
> The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for
> free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated US
> $1,000.00 per second.
>
> The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the
> quarter mile (10/05/03 Tony Schumacher) The top speed record is 333.00 mph
> (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).
>
> Putting all of this into perspective:
>
> You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered
> Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged and
> ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the
> advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears
> and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an honest 200
> mph. The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The dragster
> launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an
> incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds the
> dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter
> mile away from where you just passed him. Think about it, from a standing
> start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly
> blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1320 foot long
> race course.
>
> That, folks, is acceleration.
Wow that's impressive.:)
Sleeper CP :D
Big Inch Ford Lover
>

[pw_Tony]

My brother in law, a top fuel crew member, told me they don't ever try to spin over 6000rpm. Any truth to that?

[Sleeper CP]

That's not what I have heard. I have heard they turn over 7,500 to 8,000 rpm's .
I'll ask a couple of people that should know. I'm sure a couple on here should have a good idea .
Sleeper CP :D

[sangervdrive]

My favorite one is how the engine is how the fuel air mixture is near solid. Thats fuking crazy. When you really think about it they really are nothing more than "controlled destruction". Totally awesome.
PS. the 900 revs under load one is kinda dumb becuas the burnout puts no load whatsoever on the motor, which is why the butterflys are only open like an eighth of an inch.

[fc-pilot]

Depending on the tune up the engines will reach anywhere from 7500-8000 rpm's at the launch. As the clutch increases pressure progressively through the first half of the run it will drag the motor down until the clutch is fully engaged. This can pull the rpm's down to the low side of 7000 rpm's (again, depending on the tune up). At that point the fuel and clutch are fully in and it increases to build rpm until the finish line where it usually is over 8000 rpm again. That is if everything went right.
> If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the
> affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder
> heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.
Not exactly. As long as the engine is still mechanically functioning properly the unburned fuel will exit the exhaust. There are many times when an engine drops a hole and completes the run without failure. When it does drop a hole it puts more strain on the engine and creates imbalances between the cylinders. Because of that imbalance parts breakage can occur, not the fact of the raw fuel itself.
Paul

[N281PONY]

I always wondered how far into the run is it until the clutch is locked in. I know there is alot of variables..track condition, etc... Is it safe to assume between 300-500 feet out?

[BOOGEYMAN]

Depending on the tune up the engines will reach anywhere from 7500-8000 rpm's at the launch. As the clutch increases pressure progressively through the first half of the run it will drag the motor down until the clutch is fully engaged. This can pull the rpm's down to the low side of 7000 rpm's (again, depending on the tune up). At that point the fuel and clutch are fully in and it increases to build rpm until the finish line where it usually is over 8000 rpm again. That is if everything went right.
Not exactly. As long as the engine is still mechanically functioning properly the unburned fuel will exit the exhaust. There are many times when an engine drops a hole and completes the run without failure. When it does drop a hole it puts more strain on the engine and creates imbalances between the cylinders. Because of that imbalance parts breakage can occur, not the fact of the raw fuel itself.
Paul
Great post Paul, you nailed it down for everyone! Dont think I can really add anything...;)
Travis

[Blown 472]

Nitro is 49.5% oxygen, hence the "liquid tune up"

[steelcomp]

I don't know if it's still the case, but it used to be true that a Top Alky Dragster had a more violent hit off the oine than a TF. TAD's can run close to 10K rpm.
If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder
heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half. TF engines are as said above running at near hydraulic lock. When one drops a cylinder, if there's ANY fuel in the chamber on the next cycle, all that fuel has to go somewhere, and although it won't blow the heads off the block, it will blow the side of the head out in a manner that looks like a plasma cutter was taken to it. There will be molten aluminum sprayed all ove the inside of the car, and big holes torched in the head, and the deck of the block.

[Sleeper CP]

Nitro is 49.5% oxygen, hence the "liquid tune up"
I thought I read somewhere that by volume Nitro was 54% oxygen :confused:
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[Sleeper CP]

I always wondered how far into the run is it until the clutch is locked in. I know there is alot of variables..track condition, etc... Is it safe to assume between 300-500 feet out?
I thought it was beyond half track ? Maybe Travis or someone else knows ?
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[steelcomp]

I thought it was beyond half track ? Maybe Travis or someone else knows ?
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:DThere are SO many variables to that.

[BOOGEYMAN]

I don't know if it's still the case, but it used to be true that a Top Alky Dragster had a more violent hit off the oine than a TF. TAD's can run close to 10K rpm.
TF engines are as said above running at near hydraulic lock. When one drops a cylinder, if there's ANY fuel in the chamber on the next cycle, all that fuel has to go somewhere, and although it won't blow the heads off the block, it will blow the side of the head out in a manner that looks like a plasma cutter was taken to it. There will be molten aluminum sprayed all ove the inside of the car, and big holes torched in the head, and the deck of the block.
My buddy leaves the line in his TAD at around 5500 and shifts it at 10,000!!! He says when he lets go of the clutch it feels like something real bad just happened to you!!! I hope to feel that in the near future...:)
If a Fuel car drops a cylinder there will always be fuel in that hole every go around, no way around it. Most of the fueler's will even drop a hole right off the brake and sometimes it even lites off again. The exhaust plays such a big role in downforce on a fuel car that when it looses a hole the car will move one way or the other depending on wich hole was lost!

[BOOGEYMAN]

I thought it was beyond half track ? Maybe Travis or someone else knows ?
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D
As steelcomp stated there really is so many variables to when the clutch goes 1 to 1....every team sets them different and every team sets them different for almost every pass. Thats why the crew chiefs make the big bucks because when the clutch is off the race is over!

[steelcomp]

My buddy leaves the line in his TAD at around 5500 and shifts it at 10,000!!! He says when he lets go of the clutch it feels like something real bad just happened to you!!! I hope to feel that in the near future...:)
If a Fuel car drops a cylinder there will always be fuel in that hole every go around, no way around it. Most of the fueler's will even drop a hole right off the brake and sometimes it even lites off again. The exhaust plays such a big role in downforce on a fuel car that when it looses a hole the car will move one way or the other depending on wich hole was lost!I spent over four years repairing what was left of TF heads that were torched. Sometimes just teh deck, sometimes all the way to the valve seat. Also watched the evolution of O-ring technology change radically trying to stop it. In the end, if the fuel wants to come out the side, it's coming out. Liquid simply won't compress.:eek: What's funny is, it's still nothing like the damage that a TADragster does when it drops a valve at 9500. :cry: Fixed a lot of those, too. It's hell when the head of a 2.400" Titanium intake valve is shoved all the way into the intake port...sideways.

[fc-pilot]

[QUOTE=steelcomp;2938792]I don't know if it's still the case, but it used to be true that a Top Alky Dragster had a more violent hit off the oine than a TF. TAD's can run close to 10K rpm.
QUOTE]
I can't tell you about the hit, but you are right about the 10K rpm's. They usually shift just shy of 10k and want to go through the lights just over. Well the top alky Funnycars (ta-fc) that is.
Paul

[WannabeRacing]

Again with the tune-up stuff. When the teams were forced to 85% nitro, the rpms started to really go up on the launch and through the run. They could not make the grunt force that they could at 90%. So they made it up with rpm. Many of the big teams wanted to see well over the 8000 rpm range on the hit of the throttle. And with a good track condition, the cars locked the clutch 1:1 between 2.5 and 3 seconds into the run. The G force when the clutch locks up is greater than the g force at the launch.
And one little tidbit from Goodyear. At a lauch, X amount of the rear tire is in contact with the ground. At full speed of a TFD, what percent of the initial X amount is in contact with the track. Answer- 150%.
I am surprised to hear of a TAD that launches at only 5500. That is rare for the tune-ups around today. Most of the heavy hitters are in the high 6000 to some in the high 7000rpm range. Funny cars tend to shift around 9600 to 9800, with some of the crazy runners with big dollars as high as 10,400, and some of the dragsters a little higher.
And yes, whe a head gasket starts to go away even a little bit, the amount of compression found in a fuel engine will prefer to exit out the head gasket than stay in the chamber. It will completely burn the deck out of the block and the head. And they do that ALL THE TIME!

[Unchained]

I thought I read that in a nitro engine the crank twists quite a bit under power and it throws the cam timing off on the rear cylinders.

[IMPATIENT 1]

I don't know if it's still the case, but it used to be true that a Top Alky Dragster had a more violent hit off the oine than a TF. TAD's can run close to 10K rpm.
TF engines are as said above running at near hydraulic lock. When one drops a cylinder, if there's ANY fuel in the chamber on the next cycle, all that fuel has to go somewhere, and although it won't blow the heads off the block, it will blow the side of the head out in a manner that looks like a plasma cutter was taken to it. There will be molten aluminum sprayed all ove the inside of the car, and big holes torched in the head, and the deck of the block.
that's some wicked cylinder pressures!! kinda like a flow jet, just uses fluid pressure to cut right on thru it. neato:D

[fc-pilot]

I thought I read that in a nitro engine the crank twists quite a bit under power and it throws the cam timing off on the rear cylinders.
I know Alan Johnson was grinding his cams adjusting for some of the twist that takes place in the cam and crank. I have to imagine he is still doing that, but I am not completely sure about that.
Paul

[MKEELINE]

Talk about rpm in TAD, I remember when Rick Santos was running the small block deal in TAD. That thing would scream. They were kicking every ones ass until NHRA started to hang weight on them.

[steelcomp]

I know Alan Johnson was grinding his cams adjusting for some of the twist that takes place in the cam and crank. I have to imagine he is still doing that, but I am not completely sure about that.
PaulNot that I know of. They decided there was no benefit from it, and it was a PITA.

[steelcomp]

Talk about rpm in TAD, I remember when Rick Santos was running the small block deal in TAD. That thing would scream. They were kicking every ones ass until NHRA started to hang weight on them.Not everyone's ass...:D

[058]

Not everyone's ass...:D
But enough to give fits to the guys running Hemis. Only reason they are not running anymore is a few crybabies:cry: sniviled about their required weight difference.

[Sleeper CP]

But enough to give fits to the guys running Hemis. Only reason they are not running anymore is a few crybabies:cry: sniviled about their required weight difference.
I saw that car run at Pomona one year before the weight penalty, and it whipped everyones ass that year :)
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[steelcomp]

But enough to give fits to the guys running Hemis. Only reason they are not running anymore is a few crybabies:cry: sniviled about their required weight difference.The guys I'm thinking about weren't running a Hemi and got far worse treatment by the NHRA than Santos ever did, but that's a whole nother story.

[058]

The guys I'm thinking about weren't running a Hemi and got far worse treatment by the NHRA than Santos ever did, but that's a whole nother story.
NHRA treated all the Sportsman class racers like shit. They let George and Rick slide for a while because their little Chevy was a big draw but when the sniviling begun they had to do something. As to your 'treatment' comment somehow Walt Austin comes to mind....

[steelcomp]

NHRA treated all the Sportsman class racers like shit. They let George and Rick slide for a while because their little Chevy was a big draw but when the sniviling begun they had to do something. As to your 'treatment' comment somehow Walt Austin comes to mind....Close...Blaine and Alan Johnson were continually penalized...to the point that (if I rmember correctly) they sued the NHRA. Maybe that was a rumor, and if so, I'm embarassed for repeating it, but I don't think it is. Austin ran hemi's...well, sort of...they were the WAR head (made by Alan Johnson and sold by Walt). Strictly Top Alcohol head, had a small figure 8 chamber (actually had several chamber designs) and huge raised runner ports.

[058]

Close...Blaine and Alan Johnson were continually penalized...to the point that (if I rmember correctly) they sued the NHRA. Maybe that was a rumor, and if so, I'm embarassed for repeating it, but I don't think it is. Austin ran hemi's...well, sort of...they were the WAR head (made by Alan Johnson and sold by Walt). Strictly Top Alcohol head, had a small figure 8 chamber (actually had several chamber designs) and huge raised runner ports.
Accually Walt had a big falling out with NHRA because he spent 2 years without NHRA's approival working on the Boss 429 design and had most of the problems worked out. He made the Ford more reliable due to better cylinder stability and support than that of the Chrysler design in part due to the thicker cylinders the bigger bore centers of the Ford vs the Chrysler. The Ford also had a higher cam location allowing a bigger lobe and a better cam profile than that of the Chrysler 426. The Ford cylinder heads allowed a bigger and more direct port due to the offset rocker arms and pushrods. Because of the various pissing matches between Austin and NHRA, it passed a rule making the bore center of 4.84" the limit for any engine in Pro and sportsman classes ending any hope of the Ford competing in the Alcohol and Fuel classes. NHRA said they do not want to add to the cost of racing to the racers by allowing a competing engine design.....Their words, not mine.

[HIRED GUN]

i had a set of "old" smblk chevy santos heads on my racecar....very nice...I grew up with them,,,when NHRA started stacking weight on that car to be "fair" they couldnt compete no more.....now rick lives a couples miles down the road from me in Brentwood and he is messing around with jason scruggs small block outlaw car....steelcomp...you heard of him havent you?

[058]

i had a set of "old" smblk chevy santos heads on my racecar....very nice...I grew up with them,,,when NHRA started stacking weight on that car to be "fair" they couldnt compete no more.....now rick lives a couples miles down the road from me in Brentwood and he is messing around with jason scruggs small block outlaw car....steelcomp...you heard of him havent you? Rich, the Santos' were and probibally are the sharpest people that ever tweaked the SBC. I have the upmost respect for them. A little bit of George's spirit went away when NHRA passed the weight rule against inline valve engines and pretty much shit canned the little 377" engine the Santos' ran. They didn't call it the "Giant Killer" for nothing. That was another nail in the coffin for NHRA as far as I'm concerned. Besides, they treated us Sportsman racers like shit because they wanted a all Pro venue, we were nothing but time fillers, track dryers and fodder for them. May they burn in hell.:mad:

[steelcomp]

Accually Walt had a big falling out with NHRA because he spent 2 years without NHRA's approival working on the Boss 429 design and had most of the problems worked out. He made the Ford more reliable due to better cylinder stability and support than that of the Chrysler design in part due to the thicker cylinders the bigger bore centers of the Ford vs the Chrysler. The Ford also had a higher cam location allowing a bigger lobe and a better cam profile than that of the Chrysler 426. The Ford cylinder heads allowed a bigger and more direct port due to the offset rocker arms and pushrods. Because of the various pissing matches between Austin and NHRA, it passed a rule making the bore center of 4.84" the limit for any engine in Pro and sportsman classes ending any hope of the Ford competing in the Alcohol and Fuel classes. NHRA said they do not want to add to the cost of racing to the racers by allowing a competing engine design.....Their words, not mine.I remember that story. What year was that? I think it was after Johnson went to TF and Blaine was killed? When I was there, we were still building the WAR head for Walt and Pat was still driving the funny car. I was there from 92-96.

[steelcomp]

i had a set of "old" smblk chevy santos heads on my racecar....very nice...I grew up with them,,,when NHRA started stacking weight on that car to be "fair" they couldnt compete no more.....now rick lives a couples miles down the road from me in Brentwood and he is messing around with jason scruggs small block outlaw car....steelcomp...you heard of him havent you?Scruggs?? Yeah, heard of him. Rick was the premier blown SBC man, that's for sure. It was always nervous time when we were running him.

[058]

I remember that story. What year was that? I think it was after Johnson went to TF and Blaine was killed? When I was there, we were still building the WAR head for Walt and Pat was still driving the funny car. I was there from 92-96.
If memory serves Walt tried to get NHRA to approve the Ford in 2004. Because of Walt's attitude, [or lack of] to NHRA was primarly the reason NHRA slammed the door on him. They never had a problem with a Ford when the fellows from Reno, Nev. [who's name escapes me now] ran one in a Caviler bodied Funnycar in the mid to late 80s. They were ex boat racers if I remember correctly. Austin got started on the wrong foot as he did not seek the blessing of Wally when he started the Ford project, bad move for him, if you don't kiss Wally's ring and kneel at his feet he will flick you away like a knat.

[Sleeper CP]

Good reading guy's. Thanks.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[N281PONY]

Scruggs?? Yeah, heard of him. Rick was the premier blown SBC man, that's for sure. It was always nervous time when we were running him.
Ya'll talking about the Jason Scruggs out of Mississippi?

[steelcomp]

Ya'll talking about the Jason Scruggs out of Mississippi?It always cracks me up on these deals that the blower is bigger than the short block. :D
http://www.dragracingonline.com/carcloseup/images/Scruggs_eng_front.jpg

[Outlaw]

Steelcomp, what team were you with?
I crewed for Tate Branch TAFC from 93 thru 2000, reading this thread
brings back lots of memories

[steelcomp]

Steelcomp, what team were you with?
I crewed for Tate Branch TAFC from 93 thru 2000, reading this thread
brings back lots of memoriesI was with Alan and Blaine. Was there when they won their last TAD championship, and left just before Blaine was killed in Indy. Good memories, and bad. I wasn't on the crew, I worked in the head shop, but was Blaine's "head" guy at his first Winternationals. Did valve jobs between rounds. :D

[Infomaniac]

My brother in law, a top fuel crew member, told me they don't ever try to spin over 6000rpm. Any truth to that?
I think NHRA made them put in a rev limiter around 8,300 RPM.. This sometimes the cause of engine explosions at the top end if it stays there too long.

[Infomaniac]

Yep cranks twist and also spread open at the crank pin between the counter weights. We build our flywheels to deal with this. The fuel funny car often runs with the flywheel on the motor plate due to crank spreading open. They shim rub buttons a specific distance from the motor plate for this reason. Dragsters rarely hit the motor plate. Their chassis flexes enough to prevent this.
They have ignition and fuel curves intersect clutch lock up. They leave with full timing and immediately cut it back. Feed it in gradually down the track along with fuel. Trick is getting everything to work together for that perfect run. The cannon controls the throw out bearing movement.
but.. All of this on pneumatic timers. When the driver steps on the throttle, everything happens in sequence regardless of what happens next. Peddle the car etc, the timers have already began their sequences

[steelcomp]

I love the RPM curve for a TF engine at the hit of the throttle. It's perfectly vertical. Instant full rpm.:eek:
Hey Ron, long time no hear from. Must be busy!!

[N281PONY]

It always cracks me up on these deals that the blower is bigger than the short block. :D
http://www.dragracingonline.com/carcloseup/images/Scruggs_eng_front.jpg
yeah, that "little" motor is good for a bout 205 in the 1/8 th ;)

[N281PONY]

I think NHRA made them put in a rev limiter around 8,300 RPM.. This sometimes the cause of engine explosions at the top end if it stays there too long.
Didn't NHRA also put a limit on the amount of blower overdrive also?

[WannabeRacing]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Scruggs went to BAE and away from the small block if I remember correctly.

[steelcomp]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Scruggs went to BAE and away from the small block if I remember correctly.Dosen't change what he was able to do with a small block, like Santos. I think that's what this was about.

[WannabeRacing]

I preferred him with the Small Block.